The Conversations Founders Avoid That Are Costing You Your Best People (and Your Best Clients) ft. Lia Garvin

WEBVTT
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This is the one I was telling you about.
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It is the biggest.
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You will not believe this place of that I just literally often.
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Their biggest.
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I'm telling everybody about this.
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Tell them I sent it is my biggest.
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This one is so good.
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Girl.
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10 out of 10 would recommend.
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Four out of five employees don't give a shit.
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And that is not me being dramatic.
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That's not a random threads hot take.
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That is from Gallup.
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And that is the current state of employee engagement in the world.
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And that's the number that Leah Garvin walked me through when I asked her, what does an engaged team actually look like in 2026?
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So imagine you have a five-person team, one that you built brick by brick, the one you talk about like it's your own little fellowship of the ring.
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And picture four of them counting down the minutes until they can slam their laptops shut.
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This is a deficit that so many founder-led businesses are operating in.
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And that is the gap between the client experience you think you're delivering and the one that your customers are actually feeling.
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Because guess what?
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Your team, a team, is one of the largest contributing factors to customer experience.
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Full stop.
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My guest today is Leah Garvin.
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She is a former Google, Apple, and Microsoft team and ops strategist.
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She is the host of the Managing Made Simple podcast.
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And Leah is the person that business owners call when their team is running on fumes, when accountability is just a word on a page instead of a lived thing, and when the founder is still the bottleneck at every decision.
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We spent this conversation on the side of client experience that doesn't happen in a funnel.
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It doesn't happen in a launch.
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It is the side that happens inside the four walls of your business every single day, and how what is happening there is always, always what your customers see and feel.
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Let's go.
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How do you define culture in a workplace as it pertains to a team?
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I think culture, I see it as the behaviors that we reward or kind of punish in a sense.
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So the stuff that we celebrate and reinforce are the things that we see more of.
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And theoretically, the stuff that we don't recognize or or you know frown upon is the stuff that people don't do.
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Now, what's ironic is I think we can easily reinforce the wrong behaviors, like working around the clock or emailing constantly, or um, you know, burning, burning ourselves at at both ends, right?
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And so I think the culture is really it's the explicitly like saying to people what we're recognizing and reinforcing, and then these subconscious under-the-surface level behaviors that were also rewarding.
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Like if someone gets a promotion because they're working 12 hour days, well, that's what it's gonna take.
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Right, like that is like the A plus.
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It reminds me sometimes when we think about restaurant reviews, I think isn't a good example of this.
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It's a five-star.
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And I'm like, okay, but is five star like meeting my expectations, or is five star like totally blew me out of the water, went above and beyond.
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So, like a really good experience is four star with book reviews or even podcast reviews, please, you know, five star rating here.
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But that boundary I feel can move in terms of those implicit, explicit expectations.
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And I think a lot, yeah, a lot of that, or an environment in which that behavior is repeated, or that way of thinking is just indoctrinated into everything, you might not see the damage in the moment, but you most certainly see the damage later.
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When we think about team members, one of the things you talk about is how to ensure an engaged team.
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What does engagement mean in this sense when you have an engaged employee?
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I think it's like someone that gives a shit.
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Like literally, I mean, it's so simple, but I think right now there is so much uncertainty in the world, in the economy, in the future of AI, like the future of like jobs in general, that I think it's really easy for folks right now to just do the job and want to check out.
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And that's why we have the lowest engagement in history.
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Right now, I think engagement, employee engagement, Gallup's reported, is 21%.
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So four out of five people don't really give a shit.
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They're just trying to collect their paycheck, they're just trying to get through the day.
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And so I think it's something we should be aware of and a little bit scared of, right?
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Is that, hey, you can have people that are they're showing up, they're doing okay, they're doing fine.
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But when people are not engaged, they're it's not only that they're not going to go the extra mile, that's obvious, but they're not gonna be resilient to any sort of things that are thrown at them.
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Obviously, you know, change, um, shifts in priorities, competitive, you know, needs to kind of be aware of where the market's going.
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And and the biggest thing I think from a customer experience standpoint is like that's who's reflecting your brand.
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Someone that's just like, yeah, okay, like I showed up.
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Like, do I get my per my prize?
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And so engagement is is that people actually show up wanting to be there, wanting to add value and wanting to, I wouldn't say it's like go above and beyond.
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We don't have to like always be demanding more out of people, but it's like they they're like that here, they're in the Gallup statistics staggering to me because I'm like, oh yeah, number.
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And then when you said four out of five people, I'm like, oh my God.
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Like when I think about the small and medium-sized businesses that are the large part of my client base, I'm like, they probably have five people on their team.
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And can you imagine everybody except the founder?
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And sometimes, honestly, sometimes the founder is the one who's like, I don't care.
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I'm so done.
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Yeah.
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Oh my goodness.
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That is so sobering.
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Because exactly when we think about workplace engagement, employee culture, I feel like there's there's two routes we typically see, I'll say, in in media, in the mainstream, where we have these typical expectations of what it is.
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You're either gonna go like the big Google way, which is foosball tables, free food, nap pods, yoga classes, but it's at the office because they never want you to leave.
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Or it's going to be the super stuffy corporate type where our vision statement is on a wall and we have stakeholder meetings and we have stand-ups.
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And I think neither one of those seem really appealing, nor do they truly reflect, I think, how collaboration amongst teams wants to work in today's age.
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And when you try to force too much of it, I think it does the opposite for engagement.
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So when you think about employee engagement beyond the foosball tables, beyond the very fancy mission statement on the wall, what do you think are those essential elements that makes those other four out of five people go, you know what?
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I do actually give shit.
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Yeah.
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I would say first and foremost, and if you did one thing, it's make sure folks feel recognized.
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And it doesn't mean you have to pay people more.
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I think with I work with business owners as well, and I think one thing we get really scared about is well, if I am trying to recognize and appreciate this person, like now I got to pay them more and I don't have the money, so I don't want to say anything.
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And what we're missing is, yeah, it's we should be paying our people well.
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That's like a non-starter, but you can recognize folks in so many other ways than just paying them more.
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And you're going to create so much goodwill in someone.
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If you, if I said to you, hey, Nikki, we're really working on getting you that raise at the end of the year.
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In the meantime, like you have been doing such a great job.
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I found this conference for you to go to, or I'd love for you to mentor this new hire, or you know, you're really, you know, maybe you really wanted to take on, you know, more leadership in this capacity.
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So I've carved out this project for you to be driving.
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And while we are working towards that raise, these are the things that I'm doing to show my appreciation of your work.
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Like how much more engaged would you be?
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I would love for that, right?
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The payment part of it, I think, is often the first barrier that people put up when they're thinking about this for truth or for false.
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But like they're gonna think money.
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Uh, or I need to pay them, maybe not more, but I need to give them a bonus.
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Or I want to send them a gift, but how much can I spend?
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And that that being a barrier to decisions you're making.
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But to your point, it almost reminds me of love languages, right?
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I'm an act of service and words of affirmation, girly.
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If you want to give me a present, I'm also equally great with that.
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But just sometimes that small thing.
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And I think it applies to customer experience as well and how the the ecosystem around it contributes to how a customer feels.
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We think that, especially if you're in like a high-touch service-based business, like a boutique kind of offering, you're like, I have to send them gifts and they have to be gold, and it's this and it's this and it's this.
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When really at the end of the day, yeah, I want to be acknowledged that I did something good.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, and it's a great point.
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I mean, I have clients that, you know, they realized, hey, instead of giving a$500 bonus, which people are like, what?
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This is it, having a team activity.
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And they all took the team at the end of the year and they picked somewhere they wanted to go together and they were all working towards that.
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And then the business owner could take them all for like a spa day.
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And they loved it.
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Not only did they get to have feel celebrated, they had an extra day off, they had team building.
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And I think we, like you say, we get stuck on the money thing.
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And so then we're like, well, I'll just deal with that later.
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So then we don't recognize people at all.
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And it it could be really simple.
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Now, I think both of us agree it's it's not instead of paying people well, but it's like, you know, it's instead of getting stuck on, oh, if I can't do this, then nothing.
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You know, like we don't need to do that.
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Um, and and you called out a really important point, is we have to understand the way that someone wants to be appreciated, just like the love languages, right?
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Someone may want a bonus, another person just really wants that thank you.
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Another person wants a day off.
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And if we don't actually even ask our people, like literally ask one question, like, hey, you know, if we had all the research in the world, how would you want to be celebrated?
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If we ask that, we're gonna find out, oh wow, it might be completely different than I would have wanted.
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And if I used the way I would have wanted, they wouldn't have felt appreciated.
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We often refer back to the golden rule of treat others as you would like to be treated.
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But no, I believe in something called the platinum rule, which is treat other people as they want to be treated, how they want it.
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It's not how I want, because to your point, give me a present.
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I'm fantastic.
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But if someone else wants something else, then that act of attempting to create engagement, attempting to show something can land really flat.
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And in extreme cases, once I would I would hazard a guess that if somebody is already feeling disengaged, that I can almost feel like a slap in the face of like, why?
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What is this?
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So treat people like they want to be treated.
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Yeah.
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Not like you, because this is not about me, it is about them.
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Exactly.
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Oof.
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So you have spent um time inside Google, Apple, Microsoft.
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When we think about culture and engagement, we think of big teams and we think about teams that handle all of this, and there's lots of moving pieces, there's resources beyond just money.
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But what do you think those companies, those big guys, get right about people that a lot of small businesses assume that they can't afford to replicate?
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Ooh, I love that question.
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I mean, I think one thing I think especially Google especially did well when I was there was giving you a lot of opportunity to craft your role.
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And I realize that's not always an opportunity as a small business, right?
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But probably kind of is because we need folks that are doing sort of kind of generalists in a lot of in a lot of times.
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And at Google, I think if you are delivering results, if you're a high performer, if you're getting your stuff done, you do have a lot of runway to say, okay, I also want to learn about this or take this on or do, you know, a side project.
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And I think the fear can be, well, if they do that, are they gonna leave?
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Are they gonna, you know, want to quit?
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And I had never felt more loyal to a company than when I was able to do a bunch of things while I was there.
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And it's also, I had never done a better job either.
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And so I think it it's something, yeah, I don't think you can necessarily afford it to folks that are struggling and they they struggle with partisan or they're not focused.
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But for high performers, people that are really like crushing it, I think showing them, hey, like I want you to be able to pursue all of your interests in this company, I think that goes a really long way.
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And it is another, like we just said, it's another non-monetary incentive and way to recognize folks that you really have at your disposal.
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If you have someone that's doesn't love their job and they're like, well, I'd rather do this, that's not what we're talking about, right?
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It's like someone that is really doing well and you're like, ooh, how can we broaden this so that this person feels like there's a lot of different things?
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Yeah, I think feeling considered or feeling oftentimes we talk about collaboration, right?
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And I love collaboration.
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And I think what many people see as collaboration is not true collaboration.
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And I think what you're talking about is kind of in the spirit of that.
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Here's what I need, and here's what I think.
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Do you have a response to this?
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What would you do?
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One of my favorite questions in planning meetings is I call myself Santa Nicki.
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And it's if time, money, expenses, and resources weren't an issue, what do you think we need to do?
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Yeah.
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What do you think this needs to be?
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Where would you want to go?
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And saying, okay, cool, Santa Nicki cannot deliver on all of those things this year.
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And here's what we can do.
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And I think that co-design process really works well.
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I remember I used to run a team a couple years ago, and we didn't do annual performance reviews because it was just, why would I wait a year?
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It felt very top down.
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You're getting called into a doctor's office.
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So instead, what we did was a monthly self-assessment for the team.
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And it was a quick little rubric do you feel like you have everything you need to perform your job at a level that you want?
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Do you feel that what you're doing is accurate to what your job description is so that we can avoid scope creep, especially in smaller businesses?
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And then we'd say, you know, how are you tracking?
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What do you need?
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What would you like to do more of?
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And then that would be what we would review with them.
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So it's them coming to the table with solutions because we wanted to create a culture of action takers and people coming to the table with solutions.
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So why wouldn't you make that a part of how you do reviews?
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And like you said, now that's reinforcing, right?
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Like we said with the culture piece, you're reinforcing proactivity, solution focus, that you don't show up like, I don't know, like tell me what I should do.
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But like the question, that's what when I'm working with business owners, I'm coaching them to do that exact thing is ask your team members what they think.
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Ask them how they would solve a problem.
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If they come back with something, you're like, that's not really what I'd say.
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That's an opportunity to give some feedback or coach them through it.
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But I think we often can get in a place where like we had the idea, we had the vision, and we're just hiring people to like be an extra pair of hands.
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And we're kind of cutting off the potential for that person to solve it in a better way than we would have, for them to free us up from having to think about it.
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We're not really then able to really get out of the weeds when we're when we're in.
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I love that you bring up delegation.
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I think it's a struggle that a lot of teams have, and how do I do it correctly and effectively?
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How do I create an environment of trust that it's is going to get done and I don't have to be a micromanager.
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And I think it all comes back to a standard.
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I often talk about what is the standard or brand promise you make to your consumers, which is anytime you engage with us, here's what you can expect.
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It's more of an operational promise rather than this is our mission, this is our big why.
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And that has to exist for the employees too.
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It's not just this is how we treat our customers.
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We often refer to Disney and Disney Parks being some of the best at this in terms of how they answer questions or how they answer inquiries.
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Yeah.
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But it's more of this is the standard that people can expect if they buy from us, interact with us, message us.
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And how can we reinforce that on the employer, on the team side too, so that it's so clear and lived?
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Exactly.
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I mean, you're literally speaking my language.
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I call it systems, right?
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It's the exact same thing.
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And the beauty of having these standards or systems or like ops protocols is you're taking out the guesswork, you're taking out the subjectivity.
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And so, like you're saying, um, folks asking, well, I don't know where I stand, I don't know what my career is doing, whatever.
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You created a system of having a monthly check-in where folks know exactly, okay, I come with my goals, I come with my plan, I come with my feedback, and then the conversation we come away with XYZ.
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You have solved so many of the engagement issues that I see on Teams of folks literally saying, I don't feel noticed, I never get feedback, I don't know what you've solved it with a simple system, which the team member is hungry for.
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And I think this is one of the rubs, especially with business owners who maybe have not led teams before or, you know, kind of managing, supervising folks is newer.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:22.720
Your team members want the systems.
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:30.400
They want the standard, they're hungry for that because they actually don't know how to do a good job without that expectation set.
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:37.759
And when they have that, they're like, okay, I'm in, you know, and and it also makes it easier for you to see if a team member's not a fit.
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:45.119
If someone is like dragging their feet on this monthly thing, which is like you've made it very simple and straightforward, it's like, what's the deal here?
00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:45.440
Right?
00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:48.240
Like, are it maybe you're not a long-term fit.
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:56.799
And that's really what I do with business owners is I look across their teams and I see, okay, where where are we having miscommunication issues?
00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:58.640
Are we bleeding money internally?
00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:00.640
Hey, this is taking longer than it should.
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:05.680
You know, where are these gaps that are really frustrating folks and slowing people down?
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:17.440
Every single system starts to enable that business to be making more money and be saving more time, be optimizing their people while building that culture of engagement that you want to see.
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.640
Because the more clear folks are, the better work they do.
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:39.200
And I think you hit on another thing that I love and I think is so important as being a part of systems, is by setting up these systems, by putting the thought and the deliberateness into creating those systems, not only of just how do we do things efficiently, steps one through six, but how how do we manage the people going through that?
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:45.440
Is I think it it definitely helped me become a better manager in previous roles because then it wasn't personal.
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:50.000
It wasn't me saying, I think, or you're not doing this and this is bad.
00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:52.559
And they're like, one, where is that written down?
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.400
So I can sing, but also it's like I don't ever want to be that person.
00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:01.279
So that when I bring up performance, when I bring up how things are done, I refer to a system.
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:03.920
I never refer to the person in the same way.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:14.640
It's like, so it kind of protects, I think, everybody in the conversation and kind of prevents some of the personality stuff, I think, from getting in because I'm not saying, Leah, what is this?
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:15.599
What is this?
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.960
I'm like, hey, this is kind of what we outlined as the standard.
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:21.119
Where do you see some deviations?
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:22.799
Like, it's not me, it's not you.
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:24.240
It's exactly.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:30.160
And that, exactly, and that right there is what creates accountability.
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:35.440
Like, I think probably we've all heard like, oh, my people aren't accountable, they're not taking this ownership over this.
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:39.599
It's because you're asking them to be accountable to you, like it's a favor.
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:40.480
And that's not the truth.
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:42.880
Like, you're accountable for a freaking job, right?
00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:46.000
Like, hey, like you said, we talked about this.
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:48.400
This is what you agreed to, this is what you signed up for.
00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:49.920
Like, what's the gap?
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:50.240
Right.
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:58.079
And so now instead of making it about you and if they like you or listening or whatever, it's like, this is your job, like, are you gonna do it or not?
00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:00.799
And it makes it such an easier conversation.
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:10.720
Um, and I think a really simple shift for folks um is literally removing the words I need from your vocabulary.
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:20.319
If you say, hey, I need you to get this done by two o'clock, I need you to use this template, I need you to get this done, you are saying you're accountable to me again, like it's a favor.
00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:27.359
If you say, hey, the expectation was this we done, the client's expecting this at three o'clock, um, this is the template that we use.
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:30.960
See that simple should be shoulders just dropped on my higher social, right?
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:32.400
This is how we're getting folks.
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:34.559
Right?
00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:38.880
That's how we get folks to be like, oh yeah, that's my job.
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.799
It's not a personal favor to, you know, to you.
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:48.000
And it starts to make it easier for us to hold folks accountable, which it can be hard, right?
00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:56.160
We have a small team, we want to create a a friendly environment, but we can actually get in our own way by just even some of the language we're using with our team.
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:02.559
The systems and these ideas of accountability also protecting the team and the business from the founder, from the leader.
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:09.599
I often think that founders and leaders ideally they want to become a passenger in their business because I love them so much.
00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:13.119
But sometimes they can be like a Kool-Aid man smashing into it.
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:21.200
And if they're not abiding by the system, that can create a lot of anxiety within the team or within the customer base of things are always changing.
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:21.519
Yeah.
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:24.319
I think I told a story on the this podcast a couple of weeks ago.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:31.039
I I I had a mid-20s career crisis and I went and I became a personal trainer at this really bougie gym uh in Mississauga.
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:43.039
And we had these managers, and every week they're like, we're have a book club, we're gonna do these incentives, and nobody ever followed up with it because we knew three days after that in staff meeting, they were never gonna mention it again.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:44.960
Because they weren't following a system.
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:47.200
They were kind of coming as like, Why should I try?
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:48.480
Why should I be engaged?
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:49.200
You're gonna change this.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:49.839
Why should I buy this?
00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:50.960
You're just gonna change it.
00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:52.960
Why should I, why should I give a shit?
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:54.720
Because this isn't gonna last.
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:56.480
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:02.720
Sometimes we think of all these ideas and we want to do all this stuff, and it's like Do one thing, do it well, and then add.
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:03.519
You know what I mean?
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:13.599
Like if you're saying, oh, we want to have these, these team happy hours and give out this and that, like, and then you don't follow through, like you said, people they just are like, whatever, who cares?
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:24.240
If you did one thing and you said, like, hey, every every spring we have this like picnic and we all bring our families and we're all sort of like that's better than having like 19 activities that like fizzle out, right?
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:32.720
And and I think it can, it's both overwhelming for the founder, it's overwhelming for the team, and and like a big letdown when we don't follow through with it.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:40.960
So fewer, like less is more and more um more intentional, you know, I think goes such a longer way.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:45.279
Another piece of that too, I think is bringing the team into the conversation.
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:52.720
If you want to create a culture that shows up a certain way, like even with the thing with book clubs saying, like, hey, we're gonna have a rotating owner.
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:58.240
We want, we know we want to have community here, we know we want to have opportunities to connect in different ways.
00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.880
Like every month someone owns that and gets to plan that and gets a little bit of a budget.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:11.279
And, you know, like, and then the owner shows up so that they're showing, you know, buy-in and they're showing, you know, like getting folks excited about it.
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:13.599
There's we don't have to do everything ourselves.
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:21.440
And I think that's the other piece about having systems, is that's the only way that we will ever be able to not have to do everything ourselves.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:32.720
It's like if we have a system and we say, yeah, like every month we have some sort of team-related activity, and I'll plan the first one, and it has this budget, this is kind of the parameters around it.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.839
Um, now next month you're running it and you follow those.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:43.680
Like you've set some expectations, some guardrails, and then you give folks the opportunity to drive it and not have to do everything yourself.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:53.119
And like what a great way to do for team members to demonstrate other skill sets that leadership or might not even know they have, or for them to step into a role.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:24:00.880
These are it's such a great way, I think it when it's done right for someone to say, you know what, actually, I like leading this book club this month.
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:03.680
I wonder what other leadership opportunities are available to me.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:05.920
Or I love creating community.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.279
I wonder if there's some sort of initiative that I can spearhead within the company to help this go.
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.160
And what is the trickle down effect of that?
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:27.599
I think anytime a business is reliant on the founder or any single channel, really, you're gonna be in trouble, whether it's because the founder has to make all of the decisions or the leadership has to make all of the decisions, or all of your sales come through Instagram.
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:28.079
Yeah.
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:37.519
There's potentially an over-reliancy on one singular person or channel that if that goes wrong, I'm sorry, you don't you don't have a business next week.
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:38.079
Yeah.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:39.599
It goes the same with teams.
00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:40.240
Exactly.
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:47.359
The team ultimately, however they're showing up, whatever they expect, whatever they think, whatever they're doing, that is what your customers see.
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.119
It is like a complete reflection.
00:24:49.279 --> 00:25:01.200
And and I think what we also don't always realize is like we can't operate one way inside of our business and then expect it to look a little bit different on the, you know, facing outward.
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:10.079
Um, and the not only because our team members are like brand ambassadors this day and age, and it can be like extremely detrimental if they like hate the company.
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:43.119
But I think, like we said with the engagement question, they are they're never going to show up in a way that is how we would ever want like our business and company to be perceived if they don't know how to be successful in our company, if they don't know when they get paid more, or when they, you know, get a title change, or if they don't know what they feel like every goal is a moving target, and like my boss is like, I'll believe it when I see it, when I'm working on anything, you know, like they're just gonna be depleted.
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:47.119
And I said in the beginning, like, we're at a deficit right now.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:48.400
People are all depleted.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:53.759
Like, I'm sorry, like I was saying, like 90% of people like are really well, no, we said 80.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.079
It's a lot four out of five.
00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:58.559
80% of people are depleted.
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:06.000
So, like, if we think people are gonna go and bring us more customers and show everybody, like, no, we have to actually do more.
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:10.640
But it's not, it's again, it's not like a ton more work, I would say, from the founder.
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:16.559
It is actually just like thinking about it and being like, okay, do more is actually just like be more clear.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:18.960
And the way to be more clear is through systems.
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:27.599
And and again, I think like we both was said, the the simpler the system, the more clear it is, the fewer the systems, the better.
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:28.000
Right.
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:34.319
And so, like a lot of the work I do is looking across, I'm like taking steps out and removing bottlenecks and saying, like, wait a second.
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:41.680
If you explained this is the three criteria you need to make a decision, and the people are doing that, you don't have to make those decisions anymore.
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:44.720
You've just saved hours of your time.
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:51.200
That clarity starts to show people, okay, you trust me, I can take responsibility for this.
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:56.000
Oh, I don't just look at my lit my job as like a list of tasks.
00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:58.160
I can think about this in a bigger way.
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:03.440
And when your team members start to look at their work in a bigger way, take that ownership.
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:08.000
Now they're thinking, hmm, how can I make a better client experience?
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:10.640
This customer had this question last time.
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:14.880
My task list says this, but they had this question, huh?
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:16.960
Maybe I could do this in a better way.
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:26.960
And you're not having to solve as many problems as that founder because your person is collecting inputs and thinking about it and saying, wait a second, connecting the dots behind the scenes.
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.799
So this is really how you prevent that founder reliance.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:36.480
Because if nobody is doing more than these stated tasks, you have no way to iterate and improve them.
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.359
I would say people's tasks are none of my business.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:46.160
I honestly don't care too much about the tasks that you're doing, but I'm very clear on the outcomes that you should be doing.
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:50.079
Because if you can build a better mouse trap, by all means, I'm going to empower you to do that.
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:54.799
I don't need to be the one making a decision on if you build it in three steps or in four steps.
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:57.200
If you think three steps is better, then go build it.
00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.519
I don't really need to be involved in that.
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:01.680
It's just, yeah, it's none of my business.
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:03.519
I don't know how to do it.
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:05.200
Why would I tell you how to do it?
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:16.079
Um, you brought up we talk about um satisfaction and engagement, which I love because in customer experience we talk about the base of the pyramid being satisfaction.
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:17.279
I got what I paid for.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:20.240
If you go up a level, it was really easy to work with you.
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.200
It's so easy to ask questions, easy to get support.
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:23.920
I'm gonna do it again.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.240
And then after that, the top of the pyramid is enjoyment.
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:28.000
You've created emotional memories with me.
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:29.839
The base, though, is satisfaction.
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:30.319
Yeah.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:39.759
When it comes to employee satisfaction to employee engagement, where do we typically see that gap or that breakdown start to occur?
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:45.039
I think if it's a business with the employees are customer facing.
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:53.839
So, like let's say it's a retail store or a gym or a med spot or some, you know, there's a lot of stuff that you might face employees, like something where there's like a physical presence.
00:28:54.079 --> 00:29:01.440
I think first and foremost, you can tell the second you not only just walk in the door, but like look into a window if employees don't want to be there.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:03.680
Like it is obvious, right?
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:08.240
And you don't want to walk in a in an establishment where the employees don't want to be there.
00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:14.960
And so this doesn't mean that folks have to show up, you know, super fake and are forced like into some like step for whacking.
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:17.200
Like, oh God, no, these are robots.
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:18.240
I'm just gonna leave now.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:20.400
Right.
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.440
You know, where they're like where it's weird and uncomfortable.
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:36.000
But I think you you feel more satisfied as a as a customer, as a client, when someone seems like they are genuinely like good with being there.
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:40.880
So I think first and foremost, it's um, and again, this can be systems.
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:43.200
It's like, do you greet people when they walk in?
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:44.720
I have med spot clients.
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.839
Do you know they don't have a hundred people walking through the doors?
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.599
So, like, hey, someone comes in for the appointment and you say, Hey, welcome, Nikki.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:52.480
So excited you're here.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:54.319
You know, how is your kid doing in summer camp?
00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:58.000
You actually know about me and you you're interested in me as a human.
00:29:58.160 --> 00:29:59.599
You offer me a refreshment.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:06.240
You, you know, maybe you know that last time I had a like a fresca and you have that for me or something like that, right?
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:12.160
I think there's a lot that we can do around showing people like I want you to be here.
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:14.480
The flip side is your employee.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:24.480
I'm sorry, CVS, but like every time I like they're like the the person at the register is on their phone, like like having a taking a phone call.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.920
You walk up, they look like you just like murder their family.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:29.519
Why are you interrupting my day?
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:30.960
I think by something.
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:32.720
I know.
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:37.039
And I'm like, oh my god, like there's nowhere I want to be less than this CVS right now.
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:41.519
Like, and I and then you get that long receipt, and it's like, okay, like get me out of here.
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:54.079
I think there's so folks that can demonstrate they genuinely want to be here, they can only do that if they feel appreciated by their company, by their employer, by their manager, right?
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:56.720
So it really is like a chain of events.
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:03.440
Um, I think one another example is like I I am like obsessed with F-45, like the gyms that I work in.
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:05.519
Group class hit training.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:07.119
All right, so you get it.
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:09.839
And the trainers make or break it, right?
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:16.799
Like if you have right, like you have trainers that like they know you what you're working on, they're excited for you.
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.200
You come to the classes that they're at, right?
00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:24.559
And if you had no trainers that you might work out in your garage or do something else, right?
00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:32.960
And I think we forget that the employee is usually who the customer is interfacing with.
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:51.519
And I don't care how much you love your business, how great you are at like your vision, if the people you have representing your brand don't give a shit and are pissed off and and don't understand the importance of you know creating that experience, then it's like you need all new people or you need to not have your business.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:53.359
Like it's a it is like a notch.
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:57.680
I think you've hit on something really powerful, the idea of signals, right?
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:07.599
It is when you walk into an F-45, for example, and someone's like happy to be there, and I've had many of the coaches come up to me during a session.
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:09.279
It's like, Nikki, how's your knee?
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:16.880
Because I tweaked it in pick pickleball a couple weeks ago, and they'll ask me how my knee is, or they'll ask somebody else, like, hey, is your daughter back from summer camp or what's going on?
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:26.720
Because there's a signal of they have this time when they're on the floor during a workout, and I'm there sweating my ass off, holding a sandbag, and they're like just chilling out next to me and we're we're chatting, having a good time.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:41.839
Or I told a story a couple of weeks ago on the show about this restaurant that I went to in Florida and how it was probably the single best birthday experience I've ever had at a restaurant, and the very signals they had, like the table had confetti on it, which signaled to all of the other servers this is a special occasion table.
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:56.720
It's like all of these signals to celebrate a person, to treat them ideally how they want to be treated, but you can't do any of those things unless there's a signal that goes up or a flag that gets planted to say, hey, this is something we can do.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:58.640
This is something we can be aware of.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:03.039
And then each team member can kind of pick that up and be like, cool, what can I do with this signal?
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:07.440
Um, and I think it's part of that too, is gonna come from clarity within the organization.
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:11.200
It's gonna come with what is the standard, what are the processes, what are the systems around that.
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:21.759
But I think anytime we can think about what are the signals that somebody needs to see, that someone on the team needs to see to go, I know what I need to do.
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:23.599
I know what to react.
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:25.039
Exactly.
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:28.799
And this is literally, you mentioned micromanaging earlier.
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:33.920
I think we can get so confused with like, if I'm too explicit with the signals, I'm gonna be micromanaging.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:35.519
And it's like, no, no, no, no.
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:44.720
It's if you haven't said the signals and then later you decide what the signals are while someone's in the middle of their job, that's when you're micromanaging, like, oh wait, I had these signals.
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:48.400
If you are clear up front, you are not micromanaging.
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.240
If you say, and I'll give you an example, I had a client that runs a high-end PR firm.
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:55.839
She's she charges like$12,000 a month for client representation.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.480
And she said, Well, you know, I want folks to do their work in a really specific way.
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:05.599
It's a huge premium people are paying, and we want our clients to know they're getting like a luxury service.
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:07.920
And I said, Okay, that's how you explain it.
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:10.480
First of all, like, yeah, say that.
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:19.199
And so I said, you know, well, okay, talk to your team about well, what does it mean to offer a premium service at$12,000 a month?
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:20.639
What would people expect?
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:23.679
They would expect proactivity in communication.
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:27.840
They would expect never having to wonder where one of their campaigns are.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:32.400
They would expect all of the emails are written in with this level of polish.
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:34.400
They would expect the decks all look the same.
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:35.519
They would expect this.
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:43.760
And by opening up that conversation to your team, now you're co-creating, like you mentioned, collaborating before, you're collaborating on the signals.
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:47.119
Everyone is agreeing, everyone's adding and contributing to that conversation.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:52.480
And then you're leaving open, like, okay, now that we've kind of like defined the scaffolding, more of this.
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:56.239
These are the kinds of signals you want to send, pick it up and run with it.
00:34:56.400 --> 00:35:03.599
And you've now instead of giving someone an 80-page handbook of like, wear these shoes and say this, and you know what I mean?
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:17.199
Like where everyone's like gonna rebel against it and do the opposite, you've created a feeling for folks and they can reproduce that in a bigger way, um, where it's not weird, like and it doesn't feel free.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:18.880
I think this hit on something for me.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:27.679
It's the the replace versus replicate idea in growing teams that I think sometimes you say, um, usually to the founder, you are replaceable.
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:30.639
I'm like, I don't really want to replace you because you're you.
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:32.960
I want to replicate how you think.
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:33.440
Yeah.
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:38.320
So that I can make decisions in a way that makes sense to you and for the brand and what we're doing.
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:48.960
So it's like, yeah, I think it's a small nuance, but like you're not replaceable, but you're sure as hell replicable if you have the correct systems and clarity around what that needs to look like.
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:51.360
Yeah.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.880
And it's exactly where you said it's how do I think?
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:56.239
How do I make decisions?
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:57.679
Why is that the way?
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.719
Why would that be okay in one situation and not in another?
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:12.480
And when I get into a business with a founder, we actually talk about that exact thing is like, how can we replicate this framework that you have on making decisions, the things that feel really intuitive to you?
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:15.280
Because it's not that you don't have your secret sauce.
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:21.039
It is that we need to be able to give other people the opportunity to like make a little bit of that sauce too.
00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:25.440
Otherwise, you are never gonna get out of the weeds and they're never gonna feel empowered.
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:29.760
And you're you're you're always gonna be had have this threshold.
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:42.159
I think a lot of times we have a lot of businesses, whether it's a it is, I again mentioned med spa is a med spa that has the like the best kind of like producer injector started the spa.
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:51.599
So like they're the busiest one, and or a coach that started something, or a PR person where like they're the leading producer in their business, and they're also the founder.
00:36:51.679 --> 00:37:00.639
And so when they train up folks or hire them, every customer wants the founder, and so they're stuck because like you don't want the B team, you kind of are paying for that.
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:11.039
This sort of cycle is created by not one, empowering your employees, two, replicating your your process for them so that they can take that on.
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:27.360
And three, not coaching your clients and your customers on, hey, I hired the best people, I hired people better than me at this, and and not doing that training where like you're actually shifting the excitement and energy onto someone else.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:29.519
I think that last piece can be scary.
00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:37.840
I work with salons sometimes and the owner worries, okay, well, are they are is someone gonna try to like go set up my same business and take on my customers?
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:47.760
I mean, I think there are horror stories, but I would say nine times out of 10, empowering your team members with the ability to think like you do, it does not result in them trying to steal your whole business.
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:49.920
No, I just feel like it would be it would be pretty rare.
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:56.719
It really would be like, I'm gonna do this only so that I can take everything like lock, stock, and barrel, and do my own thing.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:37:57.280
Right.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:00.400
No, that's a that's a red eye three scenario that goes on and does that.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:01.920
That's not really, I'd say what would happen to this.
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:07.440
You talk a little bit about the the employee engagement side and how to keep them engaged.
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:20.400
And then this idea of the satisfied or dissatisfied employee who's halfway out the door already, like quiet quitting, or I'm, you know, really not giving a shit now.
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:22.400
I'm like even more down that.
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:29.599
What are some of the signs or signals to you to go back to that language that people can miss it because they're not super dramatic?
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:34.800
I'm not running out the door saying I'm taking all of my clients with me or I'm flipping a table.
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:36.000
But like, what are those?
00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:40.559
Yeah, what are the signals we can miss when someone is already almost out the door?
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:41.440
Yeah.
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.199
I love the question.
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:49.119
And and it's exactly like you said, it's most conflicts aren't some explosive thing that happens.
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:56.400
Most of it is something that we didn't notice, a conversation we've been kicking down the road, avoiding, or one that we didn't even realize, right?
00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:57.679
So the signals are key.
00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:59.280
And I think it's a few things.
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:13.679
It's when someone maybe, so if it's a high performer that's maybe looking for the exit, it's usually someone that used to be more enthusiastic, used to maybe volunteer for more things, used to um be more collaborative, and they're kind of taking the step back.
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:19.440
Doesn't mean they're like make calling out sick and stuff all the time, but like sort of you're seeing less enthusiasm.
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:25.119
I've also said a really unexpected thing, I think, for folks is sometimes they're asking about their career path more.
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:27.679
They're trying to say, hey, is there a future here for me?
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:31.679
And then last, it could be um them asking for more projects.
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:33.280
They're trying to see, like, do you trust me?
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.480
Are you actually something that might actually get me inspired to work?
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:38.400
Is what I'm doing right now, sure, ain't it?
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:39.119
Exactly.
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:40.639
Can you re-engage me?
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:41.280
Yeah.
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:48.000
With folks that are struggling, I think it's, you know, we we probably have known that there's a hard conversation needed.
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:49.199
We don't want to deal with it.
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:54.320
We don't want to have the defensive conversation, we don't want to have this, like, you know, be interrogated back.
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:57.599
So we're thinking, okay, I I can sort of get by.
00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:58.559
They're doing enough.
00:39:58.639 --> 00:39:59.519
It's whatever.
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:09.679
And both of these situations, the high performer that's kind of thinking about leaving, or your low performer that's dragging you down essentially, those are both solved by having a conversation.
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:11.760
And I actually call it the sit-down.
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.840
And it's a simple, like a 30-minute conversation, super easy, where you go through three things.
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:22.559
You start by giving recognition or sorry, you start by taking responsibility.
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:26.559
And you say, Hey, Nikki, I noticed I haven't come and chatted with you for a while.
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:28.960
I wanted to make sure that we had an opportunity to talk, right?
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:32.800
So you start by taking responsibility so the person is ready to listen.
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:33.440
Right.
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:38.800
If you just come and say, like, hey, you know, you haven't been delivering, they're like, never mind, that's how you get the defensiveness.
00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:44.960
Or if I come and say, hey, you know, you've done a great job here, you might appreciate that.
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:55.440
But if I start by saying, hey, I realize that it's been a few months and I haven't stopped to tell you like how how great of a job you've done, wow, like that hits so much deeper.
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:58.719
So step one of the sit down is take responsibility, right?
00:40:58.800 --> 00:40:59.679
You start first.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:08.960
Step two is giving that feedback is, you know, saying, or recognition, saying, you know, when you did this project and it happened in this way, like you really crushed it.
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:19.519
So like I'm giving you specific feedback that you can reproduce, or saying, hey, you know, the last few weeks you've been coming in late, and unfortunately that's caused the team to have to start our meeting later.
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:23.920
And we've really having now we're having to work overtime and so really can't have that.
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:28.000
Because I started with take responsibility, you're listening now, right?
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:28.960
You're hearing it.
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:32.639
And then the third step of the sit-down is making an action plan.
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:38.639
Again, if I'm trying to keep you here on my team, I say, okay, so you know, we're working towards that promotion at the end of the year.
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:41.840
Here are a few projects to take on that's gonna help you get there.
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:45.840
And if you're, you know, coming in late all the time, I can say, hey, let's talk about it.
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:47.920
Is, you know, is it the time?
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:48.719
Is it this?
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:50.639
Like, how what can we do to get there?
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:53.119
Because it's really disrupting the rest of the team.
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:56.079
And it's we can't have one of the team members coming in late every day.
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:57.440
Like, what do we want to do?
00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:10.960
And this conversation is literally the solve for any of these awkward moments that we feel like I don't want to have, I don't want to say anything, or maybe the ones we haven't realized we needed, because it's disarming.
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.559
It shows someone that I'm bought into you and it gives them a clear plan.
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:21.119
And I encourage folks, like when you're feeling like, oh gosh, do is this person happy?
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:22.480
Is this person doing their thing?
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:24.159
Like to stop and have that sit down.
00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:25.119
It's it's 30 minutes.
00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:48.960
Yeah, and I think it really going back to the idea of the systems are gonna do the work for you, so it should never get to a point where you're like, I haven't checked in in a while, or I've let this go six months because I didn't know how to have that conversation, that you can kind of keep these touch points or keep these experiences, keep keep the actual this, I think, is what is gonna make or break like the quote unquote culture of a company is are you doing these things?
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:54.800
Because if it is like just sprouting out of nowhere, it's like, okay, bestie, like, no, this isn't quite working.
00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:59.760
It this feels like a facade, and now I don't trust you, and I don't trust this organization.
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:04.639
And why would I want to go out of my way to do anything for this?
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:14.000
And then when it comes to actually, especially those who interface with customers or consumers directly, it's like, okay, yeah, hi, hey, I can help you with this.
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:15.679
And when, but when they say, What would you recommend?
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:17.039
You kind of go, huh.
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:21.599
As soon as somebody makes that noise, I'm like, oh, so you don't recommend that that I get anything else here.
00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:27.280
Or I've been to a lot of you know, restaurants or wineries, because you know, I live in Niagara, which is a huge wine-producing region.
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:30.400
You go to a winery and I'm like, okay, what else would you recommend on the menu?
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:31.760
Would you recommend the Cab Franc?
00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:34.719
And they go, or I'm like, oh, so it's bad.
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:41.519
Like, and there's definitely ways you can say spin things, I'll say, to be like, you know what, not to my taste, but here's what it is does well.
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:48.079
But that is infinitely harder if it's more of like a I hate everything about this organization.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:49.440
That's a great point, too.
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:51.440
I just want to stop on that for a second.
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:56.719
Is like, it is your responsibility to ensure your team members know about all the stuff that you're selling.
00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:59.599
I mean, like, this is like super basic, but.
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:08.079
I had a client, they run a marketing and advertising agency, and they brought me on to kind of figure out their whole time tracking sort of internal operations.
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:13.119
So they were, they felt the business owner felt like they were leaving a lot of money on the table.
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:15.039
They were delivering work that was out of scope.
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:18.159
And so they could have an opportunity to upsell folks.
00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:23.119
Um, a lot of people were saying they were burned out, so we wanted to look at how much time is really spent on each project.
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:30.000
So as I'm digging into this, looking at the timesheets, looking at the services, I met with one of their account directors.
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:39.039
And I said, okay, walk me through all the different services because there's probably an opportunity to cross-promote, you know, a digital services, SEO with whatever.
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:42.480
She stopped and she's like, okay, hang on, let me let me look it up.
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:45.599
She's looking for decks, emails, things like this.
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:50.960
Is a person that you are trusting to be doing sales that cannot sell your products on demand.
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:54.400
They have to like, I was like, oh, we're gonna spend a little bit of a minute here.
00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:58.400
In your option, this is the problem right now.
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:04.719
And I'm like, you have your person on sales, not out of time being able to go, like, all right, here we go.
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:05.920
Let me talk about this.
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:06.960
That is the problem.
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:07.679
Same thing.
00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:13.599
You're in a restaurant, someone goes, Oh, I don't drink wine, you're working in a winery, and you're like, Do you think I'm bad for drinking wine?
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:21.199
If you are working somewhere and you cannot speak to what the products and services are as an employee, like you got to go back to square one.
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:26.000
There's no system that's going to solve for that person not being able to represent the brand well.
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:28.000
Yeah, that's exactly that is the starting point, too.
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:41.360
So I wonder if that actually answers as I take this in for landing my next question, which was if a founder or a business can only focus on or only fix one culture or one team problem, what do you think it needs to be?
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:50.400
I think uh I would say the biggest challenge is avoiding these conversations.
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:52.800
And I know I've never avoided a hard conversation.
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:53.840
Never.
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:55.199
Right.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:56.559
Because it sucks.
00:45:56.719 --> 00:45:58.400
I mean, seriously, like I get it.
00:45:58.480 --> 00:45:59.840
Nobody wants to be the bag.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:17.280
I know it wants to be the one that brings something up, but every single thing that folks come to me with, and every day, every conversation I have with founders and folks in the corporate world, it's not like it's unique to that, is something that's obviously would have been dealt with if there was a conversation.
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:24.400
So it's like, hey, I'm really worried my best person's gonna leave, or they just gave notice and I don't know if I what I'm supposed to do here.
00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:41.679
Or it's this person, they keep saying, I ask them to do something, they say it's on their list, and then the end of the week comes and they didn't finish it, and I keep asking them, or with this account, this marketing agency, I feel like my account managers aren't selling the products and services well.
00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:43.519
It's like, well, I don't even talk to them about it.
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:44.639
Like, you know what I mean?
00:46:44.800 --> 00:47:00.159
And so literally, like I put together this guide of how to have like start the conversation with scripts for like the five stickiest conversations that show up on a team because I think we avoid it because we like we literally don't even know how to start the conversation.
00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:00.719
Yeah.
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:10.320
And so I love to offer to folks, it's LeahGarvin.com slash convo, like conversation, or DM me the word convo uh at Leah.garvin.
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:12.079
We've got to start.
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:19.199
And if you use these scripts and that framework from the sit-down, start by taking responsibility, give the feedback, have an action plan.
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:22.159
You you lower the defenses.
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:24.880
It doesn't mean the conversations always go perfectly.
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:26.079
We're dealing with humans, right?
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:31.119
So that's it's hard, but it's nothing gets better when we don't talk about it.
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:33.920
And I think that is the biggest thing.
00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:41.519
Every I set up systems for folks to to ensure they have to have fewer awkward conversations, but there's a couple of them I still have.
00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:44.880
I will take as a as a people please are in recovery.
00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:49.519
I will take anything that can like help me at least get it started and be like, I swear it's not me.
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:49.840
Yeah.
00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:50.400
Beautiful.
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:51.199
Leah, thank you so much.
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:57.840
This is this was so fun to dive into the nerdier team side and go on this nerd safari, which I really enjoy.
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:02.559
Um, I will link that uh those convo downloads in the show notes.
00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:05.840
But if people want to connect with you, if people want to work with you, where can they find you?
00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:12.239
My podcast, Managing Made Simple, is a great place for more tools, tips, things like we talked about today on the show.
00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:13.519
So I'd say start there.
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:17.760
Find me on Instagram at Leah.garvin or on my website, LeahGarvin.
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:18.559
Thank you so much.
00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:19.920
Well, let's go into the final question.
00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:27.840
The show is called Would Recommend, where we get to explore the behind-the-scenes stories of what makes a business one that people can't stop talking about.
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:30.000
So this week, Leah, what would you recommend?
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:33.360
Yeah, so this is a it was a client of mine.
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:34.559
I became a client of theirs.
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:38.000
So I mentioned I work with MedSpa's and my client was local.
00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:45.119
So I went in to see, okay, how do they run their consult process so that I could give feedback on it and help them kind of tighten up that system.
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:50.719
When I got there, the experience blew me away so much that I was like, okay, so we're here, right?
00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:53.199
Yeah.
00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:54.559
Exactly.
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:56.719
And so what she did, and this is what I would say.
00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:58.159
So it's called Bearskin Marin.
00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:00.320
It's in Marin County, California.
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:07.599
Um, when I sat down, she had said, okay, so I know that you live in this area, right?
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:08.800
You're out in the sun a lot.
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:14.079
So when when we design a protocol for you, it has to be something that works in the in the weather that you're around.
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:19.039
Kind of, I know you live this far away from where we live, so I can't have something where you're coming back once a week, right?
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:20.880
We have to make sure that it's something sustainable.
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:24.880
I know you make a lot of videos, so like we need like three minutes of my forehead or whatever.
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:26.559
Like she, right?
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:29.039
I need to know, like, not look like frozen Leah.
00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:37.039
And so what I saw in the conversation, she had already gotten to know me and what would work for me personally.
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:50.719
And I think that is something that we underestimate, especially with high-end services, that like someone, you know, may sign up for something once, but they're not gonna come back if it's not sustainable, if it's not doable.
00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:59.280
I was just so blown away that she had done her research, not only like kind of what I want to look and feel like, but hey, what was what's doable?
00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:00.800
You know, what is my lifestyle?
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:02.880
What are things that I would be able to maintain?
00:50:03.039 --> 00:50:06.079
Um, knew I had a kid, so I'm a working mom, right?
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:07.199
I have things going on.
00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:19.440
And so I think why I recommend them so much is there was a thoughtfulness around not just like here, here's the solution that we prescribe for you because we know better, right?
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:25.119
But it was, hey, this is what we recommend, and it's going to work for you so that you're gonna be successful in it.
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:26.880
And I felt like that was such a great idea.
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:32.960
Consideration, intention, thoughtfulness is gonna win the game every single time.
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:35.360
All right.
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:46.719
I was really happy and excited to talk to Leah because as I said at the top of the episode, when we think customer experience, a lot of us just think about what we're doing for the customer.
00:50:46.960 --> 00:51:01.599
We don't tend to focus on what does my organization, my business's culture, what does my team, what does it have to do with customer experience, but also like what is the greatest impact that it has.
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:15.360
So three things that Leah said that I want you to walk out of the episode holding because I think they are so powerful and they're so attainable no matter the size of your business.
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:21.840
So the first one I want to talk about is the platinum rule beats the golden rule every day of the week, right?
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:23.360
I think a lot of us know the golden rule.
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We're taught it in childhood.
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:26.480
Treat others as you would like to be treated.
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:29.760
But it sounds generous and it sounds like nice, right?
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:37.039
But what it is, it's actually a projection because your favorite thing, your dream day, your love language is not the same as everyone else's.
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:45.039
And a well-intentioned gesture can land like a slap in the face if it's built entirely around what you would have wanted.
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:50.320
So ask your people, ask your clients, ask the person you're trying to celebrate what they want.
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:51.760
How do they want to be treated?
00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:57.920
The platinum rule is treat others as they want to be treated, and then celebrate them the way that they told you to.
00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:03.679
Celebrate them, acknowledge them, recognize them the way that they want.
00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:14.639
Because it's not about you, it is about them, and that can have this exponential effect on how things feel and operate within your business.
00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:24.400
The second thing I want to pull out, and maybe this is just because I have been personally traumatized by this in the workplace, is do fewer things and actually follow through on them.
00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:41.039
A picnic every spring, like Leah talked about, and if that shows up every spring, it is going to outperform 19 scattered initiatives that fizzle by June, or in my case, the thing that a manager brings up in a meeting that will never be spoken about again.
00:52:41.679 --> 00:52:53.039
Because your team is gonna clock so quickly, whether you're a founder who ships, who gets things done, who follows through, or if you're a founder who announces, right?
00:52:53.280 --> 00:53:01.840
Book club never had a second meeting, incentive that only got mentioned once, the values that you framed up on the wall, but you actually don't consider those when you're making decisions.
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:03.920
These things aren't neutral.
00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:12.800
What this is doing, if you can't follow through, is it's teaching your team, and in many cases, it's probably very likely trickling down your clients.
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:15.599
It's it's teaching them that nothing here is real.
00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:23.519
And once that is the lesson, once that is what people expect, no amount of new initiatives is going to unteach it.
00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:32.960
And three, to kind of finish this off for today, is how you operate inside your business, is how you show up outside of it.
00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:56.719
You cannot cultivate a confused, resentful, under-recognized four out of five employees don't give a shit team on the inside of your business, and expect a warm five-star would recommend experience on the outside because those two things are actually the same thing, just wearing different outfits.
00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:04.079
The CVS cashier on the phone, the trainer who remembers your knee is still tweaked, the injector who's gonna ask about your kid at summer camp.
00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:07.119
None of that is is personality, right?
00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:16.000
All of that, all of those experiences, for good or for bad, is the direct downstream of how leadership treats the people who represent the brand.
00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:25.519
And I am telling you that there is no marketing budget on earth that is going to paper over an internal culture that isn't taking care of its own.
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:34.320
And much like we've talked about in previous episodes, just because you haven't designed it doesn't mean that it's already existing and it's already running.
00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:40.639
So this is why paying attention to this can be so powerful because you're not just letting it sit.
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:45.039
Thank you so much for listening to Would Recommend.
00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:48.079
If you'd like to support the show, please rate, review, and subscribe.
00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:50.000
Genuinely helps more founders find it.
00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:51.760
Send this episode to a bestie.
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:56.000
Maybe they're having some trouble with their team and they're worried about the impact it's having their customers.
00:54:56.239 --> 00:55:02.480
If you want a framework for building a client experience worth talking about, grab the Would Recommend standard at the link in the show notes.
00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:07.679
And if something we talked about today has you thinking about your own client experience, I'd love to dig into it with you.
00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:11.119
You can book a Spark session at the link in the show notes.
00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:12.559
This is Would Recommend.
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:17.840
I'm Nikki McKnight, and I'll be back next week with more stories about businesses worth talking about.