Breathe, Talk, Move: Building a Mindset for High Performance with Davie Gray | Episode 43

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Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability Podcast.
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The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.
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Hope you enjoy the pod.
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Looking forward to it.
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Listen on.
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Yeah, so welcome to the pod, everybody.
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Rusty, we've got um quite an exciting guest here, is it?
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Yeah, Davy Gray looks way younger than he is, born in Scotland, spent a lot of his life in New Zealand, stuff with us with the hurricanes, and has had huge impact uh on me and on the hurricanes.
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So uh yeah, I thought I'd be a good person to get along.
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He's doing lots of really practical stuff that hopefully people can take away and put into their day jobs, or if you're a leader, you can go, actually, here's a couple of clues as to things that might help me.
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Yeah, another great pod that hopefully he's gonna add for me, allow me to bring some ideas that I'm on more or more in business and bring them into the business world.
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Hopefully he doesn't blow your brain as much as Class Adler has.
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Yeah, let's get him on.
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David Gray, how the devil are you?
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I'm good, thanks, Rusty.
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How are you going, mate?
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I'm cool, I'm cool.
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I I know we we were just chatting about the fact that don't worry, don't worry, David, don't worry, don't worry, there's no plan.
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I wondered if I wondered if that was settling you down or not.
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Um I'm all good, mate.
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You just you just did the way.
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You stayed it as normal.
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The uh you and you'll find the calm and the chaos.
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Um so you are roughly my age, which is like freaking me out a bit.
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But so do you want to tell your yeah, maybe just share anything you think is relevant up until this point where we're both roughly the same age, but you look about 15 years younger than me.
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Oh, thanks for the compliment, mate.
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Um yeah, so um Scots lad living in New Zealand, based down in Wellington.
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Um got a wife, two kids down in New Zealand.
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Spent the last 20 years living in New Zealand, so I'm 48, so kind of getting to getting closer to that point where at some point there'll be a crossover and imagine which country I've lived the longest in.
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Um primarily probably spent 20, 25 years either competing in international sport or working in professional sport, mainly rugby.
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Um, long-time sort of strength and conditioning, head of physical performance type roles, and more recently in the last sort of five or six years, just took a bit of a change of uh direction on the career pathway and transition more into mindset.
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Um and so currently work on my own business, uh contracting a lot more with the Hurricanes and Super Rugby, do some work with Australian Sevens Rugby, the men's team, currently up here in Japan with USA Rugby for the Pacific Nations Cup, and do some work with different athletes, different organizations, uh police, some corporates, some business leaders, um developmental athletes, pro-athletes, um, all around this sort of concept of mindset and also um chipping away on my uh PhD around the role of mindset and high pressure, high performance environments.
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Nice.
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What provoked the um the change say strength and conditioning?
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I mean it's not obvious.
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I mean, I maybe it is, but it doesn't seem it to me.
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It's not obvious to go from that into what you're doing now.
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What what happened?
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Yeah, I was I was always quite interested in the mental side of the game, and I think um probably like a lot of S and C guys at at the start of my career, you know, whatever, 20 years ago, probably thought the difference was, you know, sets, reps, um training intensity, and program design, and then although that's important, my thinking just continually evolved over the years, and ultimately sort of got to a point where I was more around how if I can get an athlete sort of engaged and walk through the the gates at work, you know, motivated with purpose, with intent into whatever they do.
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I didn't think certainly in a team sport like rugby, the difference was necessarily in the sets and reps and programme design, it was more around the the psychological um sort of aspect of performance.
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So even though I was in the previous role, it was quite interesting in that and spent a lot of time working with athletes, and then yeah, I was I could feel myself getting a little bit a little bit sort of stale in the S and C space, and I was really interested obviously in the mind and probably felt that you know I think it's probably fair to say, particularly in team sport, if you look at the technical, tactical, physical mind, the most under-resourced is the mind.
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But if you ask people what the most important is, they probably say the mind.
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Um so it was fascinating.
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That kind of led me to change career and or change career path, I should say, and uh just start learning my craft in a different a different area of uh of the performance game, I suppose.
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I love the man even though you change career though, you you're still in hotel rooms on buses and training.
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Yeah, nothing that's still starting in Japan for a week and see nothing yet.
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I um I'm gonna get I'm gonna give you a shower in a second because I've I I sent something we did the other day to Fred.
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But I'm I'm interested in day one.
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So day one of you were the head of performance, now you're the mental skills coach.
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Like and and if you'd like maybe use your lens of of how you are now and look back at day one of doing it, I'm just I'm just curious like how that makes you feel, what would be different, like where where have you got to?
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Yeah, like it was um it was certainly different.
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I I can really clearly remember, you know, in the sort of classic head of performance role, which is typically like head of physical performance, you're very much in the mix of everything, aren't you?
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You're you're you're you're right at the cool face with the players, you're working with the head coach, you're scheduling, you're you know, you're really at the the centre of things and then moved into this role.
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And day one, I can still just remember sitting there and being like, like, what am I gonna do today?
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You know, what happens next?
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And I remember I think I mentioned you before, it felt like if you'd ever been at the airport and you're waiting for your flight, and your flight just gets continually delayed and delayed and delayed, and all there's this hustle and bustles happening around you at the airport, and people coming off planes and gone, and you're just sitting there waiting.
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And um, so yeah, it was it was strange, it was you know, and I was on obviously on a huge learning curve as well.
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So I just got I got some good advice of somebody they said you know you can't just let it happen, just you've got to make it happen.
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So that was kind of the okay, I've just got to start doing what I feel is right and um get stuck into it.
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And just you know, what's been really cool is just sort of designed a way that fits us, think who I am and my background and my experiences and my understanding of players and coaches and the environment and uh a little bit around psychology and mindset and just shaped a an approach that I think seems to relate quite well with coaches and athletes having you know sort of work now with teams in both hemispheres and seems to go across cultures and yeah, it's been a real journey, mate, as you can imagine, and still still learning.
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Um you can pick up on something you said there with um cross cultures.
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That must I mean it works across cultures, you say.
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Is that something 'cause that obviously sounds like it might not work that well or might not transfer that well culturally between different places.
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I mean you're going all over the world in different places.
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Is that is that tricky or is it genuinely there's just no real issue and everyone kind of gets it?
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I I don't know if I've just been lucky, but uh you know, obviously coming up to say someone who liked to work with the USA team culturally quite different from New Zealand, you know, from a sort of societal perspective.
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So I wasn't quite quite sure what to expect, but um I don't know if it's because you're still in sport, there's a similarity of you know, athletes and coaches working in high performance environments, but um certainly what I've found is players, coaches like really engaged.
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And again, I don't know if it's uh I wouldn't imagine it's necessarily like my natural charisma, but whether it's the I don't know.
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I don't get many bonus uh points for that, but uh yeah, I don't know if it's just like the approach or the relatability and building relationships, but then being comfortable to I'm really conscious of trying to take the mindset work into their domain so being on being on the grass, being around training activities, not not right in the centre of it, but you know, connecting with players between drills and and trying to bring life.
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And I've you know I've picked up a lot of rusty over the year, like you know, creating competition challenges, um feedback loops, just um things that you're constantly trying to engage uh players like so a good example, even today we had our captain's run, and there were four players that weren't playing, so they were doing some extra conditioning work, and we've had a little bit of a faucet plate uh sort of mindset philosophy around plus ten percent.
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So they were just about to kick off their conditioning work and said, Okay, boys, uh I know you've got to hammer your work, I know you train at a good level, but push for that extra.
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So can you get plus two percent?
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Can you get plus three percent?
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Like the targets plus ten percent, so you know, a little bit faster off the ground, a little bit harder on your acceleration, and then at the end just feedback to each other how you've gone.
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But you know, I know you've got to train well, but just chase the extra.
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And I just think that little you know, it's not the biggest thing in the world by a long way, it's it's just another little connection point, it's another little input into the system of around the mindset components.
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So there's just opportunity everywhere, and I I don't know, hop hopefully one of my skill sets I can probably see some of that and try and fill the gaps a little bit.
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Yeah, that's fascinating.
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I mean my my bias would be the USA team are gonna be very comfortable around therapy and talking about um how they are um and and Kiwis less safe, but is is that completely wrong?
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I think um I think once you build the trust like guy they're actually my experience so far with the USA and the same with the Aussie guys and the Scotland guys I was working with, um very similar, you know.
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Yeah, just that these athletes want to get better, happy.
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But you've got to definitely build that connection and trust and um you know understanding and then also realising that there's lots of moving parts in a test match week, isn't there the the attack coach needs his some bandwidth for his work and the defence coach has to have bandwidth for his work and so on.
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So you know it's not it's not being overbearing, but it's not being part of the job is not to let guys that I think ever get comfortable.
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It's always a nudge, it's always a little probe, it's a question, it's a it's a challenge, it's uh feedback on that, or you know, even today we're doing a little walkthrough in this tiny little um conference room in the hotel, and we're just running through a couple of line out or walking through, I should say, one of the halfbacks just dropped a pass on the on the back of the 10's hip.
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So just just up to me, you know, mate, like going next, next six passes, let's get out in front.
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You know, it's tiny, but it's just a it's a it's a little grain of sand into that kind of mindset of we're getting better, we're we're relentless in our pursuit of excellence, and um you know, it's sustainable.
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I mean I don't know that that's tiny.
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I I mean I get I guess the um the skill is it's one small thing, but I think you know you it's the mindset, isn't it, which isn't as tiny as that I'm not accepting something that's not quite right.
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I'm gonna I mean I'm gonna try and be ten percent better.
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There's a lot of capac untapped capacity in people, isn't there?
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Um and that, you know, I I guess what you're saying is it's a tiny skill, but actually the i the idea that you can do better and you can do better all of the time isn't tiny, that's huge.
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Yeah, it's huge.
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Yeah, that is huge.
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The the tactics can be small, but the the outputs are enormous, and I just think about you know the mindset component.
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It's it's not the ultimate objective, but it's getting that component component right, because I firmly believe it's like the gateway into technical and tactical and physical excellence.
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So we've got to get that gateway or we've got to unlock that padlock through a mindset to allow us to then go and thrive technically, tactically, physically.
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So um yeah, I just think it there's just opportunities everywhere in the environment to again nudge, challenge, push, pull, get the arm over the shoulder, help support, um just con constantly um try to reinforce the the mindsets we're after.
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If I uh yeah, just some reflections, like I mean, it's I I think it's it's not easy for you, but there is a need.
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And then I'm not your coaches see it.
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So you said I see some of that, and I'm like, they're not looking for it.
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Like it's often like pretty low down, isn't it?
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They're looking at the What do you mean by it, Rusty?
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Um, mindset, like maybe some of the habits and behaviours that are a proxy for it.
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Uh they might look at some of that stuff, but they're not they're not, you know, and and it's interesting, isn't it?
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Like, and they're almost certainly not looking for it with the four players that aren't starting at the weekend.
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So they are often looking at different things.
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Um and then wrote like storytelling, like, um, which is obviously like a critical part of this, and and and if I give you kudos, like you did a Zoom with with me and some coaches the other week, and like I I've like it's completely changed my coach.
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Like um, and a couple of good examples, like I use the question loads, like what's your mindset in that situation?
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And it's just like unearthed.
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Oh, I'm 50-50, rusty, I'm not sure whether the coaches will let me kick, or I'll be honest, my mindset is don't fuck up.
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Yeah.
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Um, and then that's not great, is it?
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No, no, no, it's not, but it it it isn't it is understandable.
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I do get it.
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So, and then there's a bit uh as well that you talk about individuals there, but also like from a team point of view, like maybe there's a team mindset, maybe there's some individual stuff as well.
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I I sent your webinar to my son yesterday, and then he he said, uh, my gathering's somewhat it is that I I'll only see what my brain allows me to see, i.e.
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brave or scared, control the controls and step into the moment when I film myself an autopilot, can set tripwires.
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And again, that made me think about like the individual stuff and the language around all of that.
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Um I guess that I've gone on a a bit of a all over the place there.
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Well, what what do you think?
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Like let's say somewhere was yeah, there was an environment, there's a group of people listening to this, they might not be in sports.
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Like, what are you thinking?
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And and they don't have you.
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So what what could they do?
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By the way, one other story.
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I shared a couple of your stuff with uh like from my brain to them with a school, and and they've had some of the kids like just as you talked about, they're like grading their own mindset, like giving it giving themselves names to their mindset and and peer-to-peer stuff with it as well, and like they're just paying attention to mindset.
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Sorry, one more tangent.
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Go back to the question, like you're in a you're in a team, it's a business team.
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What are the little things they don't have you?
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What's the little things they can do?
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Oh, there's a lot.
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I think even from a mindset perspective, realizing that we have mindsets and the impact that those mindsets have, like that's a fundamental component.
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So mindsets basically are belief systems, they're they're a lens, they're a filter that'll shape how we what we pay attention to, how we prioritise information.
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It'll have downstream impacts on literally it'll impact what we see, it'll change our physiology.
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So if you talk about um any form of performance environment, say in business, um it's got to impact your decision making because your mindset will filter out what you prioritize and what information you allocate your attention to.
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So if there's information that conflicts your mindset, you'll often just discard that and pull other information in that reinforces it.
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So, like you touched on in a sporting context, you you can't assume that like a skill error is necessarily the skill error, you've got to you've got to go back a couple of layers and think about like what's the mindset, how does that then impact decision making?
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Because mindset will impact, um, depending on your mindset, it could impact what you hear, it could 100% impact what you see.
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So that's so quick.
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So sorry, Dave, if if I bring that to life.
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So if if my mindset was don't fuck up versus my mindset was optimism, I would you're yeah, see through my brain, not my eyes, different different things.
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Yeah.
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You'll see there's obviously a a core reality of what is happening around us, but we we construct our own reality on top of that.
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So again, maybe in a sporting context, we may perceive if I'm attacking the defensive, I if I'm positive and brave, I may construct a reality that um slows the line speed down.
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It may show me opportunity or gaps appearing between players to exploit.
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If I'm more in a passive or uh defensive mindset or feeling scared, even then, if you could replay the same situation, it would feel faster, it the people would appear larger, the gaps between people would not appear because we're not it's not like our eyes are uh a GoPro or an iPhone camera that's just filming the reality.
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That's all getting filtered through our brain, and we're then constructing reality around it.
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So um can I give you can I give you an example?
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So I've been playing around with this with my son and actually watched his video at the weekend, and he's moved from a game previously where he wasn't he didn't have the same mindset where he's actually like making line breaks and stuff, to actually because he's thinking about like not making mistakes, he's actually looking at his past rather than in front of him.
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So he's actually paying attention to completely different things and where this goes as opposed to like the picture in front.
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And again, that I think back to my career and think how much mindset influenced me both, probably super positively and start on the end and in the middle it it became quite debilitating.
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Yeah.
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And the and the beauty with mindset is like we've talked about at the start, we can we can train it, we can change it, we can nudge it, we can it's so malleable, you know, and it doesn't have to be true or false, factually, it's just a belief system, so we can shape that belief system in really adaptive ways, whether it's sport, whether it's business.
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It's kind of maybe like a you know, and there'll be businesses that have done this, but if you maybe go back five or six years to COVID, if you're a business owner with staff, but your mindset is this is a a challenging period, it's got to be terrible for the business.
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Like that that could be factually true, factually incorrect, or just a belief.
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If you change mindset to okay, what's the opportunity?
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How could we take advantage of this?
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Now we've got to start paying attention to different um pieces of information that are coming through our you know, emails or whatever might be going on.
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So you're getting uh you're getting Simon excited because that would be that would be Simon in COVID.
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But not everyone in COVID, that's a really good example.
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I don't I wonder what you're thinking, Simon, but like during COVID, you were like, Well, I've signed up to Zoom before anyone knows what Zoom is, we're gonna do this, there's loads of chances.
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And I'm thinking, oh my god, like what is gonna happen to GG in COVID?
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Change is good.
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I I mean, I think if you're an entrepreneur, if you're in business and stuff's changing, that's amazing.
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I think when things are very static and not much changing around you, that's when it's really hard.
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But if there's lots of change and lots of disruption, that's an opportunity for someone who they're thinking to do incredibly well.
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And uh and it's a problem for people who want.
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I mean set is this is fascinating stuff.
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It's something to do with capacity though, isn't it?
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Depending on your mindset gives you the capacity to do different things.
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You're not your capacity is seriously limited because you're probably just using a very small part of your brain.
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As opposed to if you're feeling this is brilliant.
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You've got access to more capacity to think to do and act and change and be able to make great decisions.
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There's no difference for me being on a sports pitch to to being in when business encoded is is scary.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:57.039
But you can either think for the end, what can I do?
00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:01.200
Or you can think oh no it's the end of the world Everyone needs to go home.
00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:07.039
And most of my competitors went home and sent everyone home and furrowed.
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:10.160
And we did how we don't go, and did really well.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:16.799
That's where um the opportunity lies, I think, you know, settling in my work and sport, but it'd be the same in business, isn't it?
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:26.640
That people's mindsets are just getting infiltrated subconsciously all the time by media narratives, um, the the kind of the word on the street.
00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:34.000
And oft often I asked I try and look I think I mentioned this before, Rusty, I try and live a bit of a an opposite mindset.
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.519
So whatever most people do, I sort of try and think of the opposite.
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:41.599
Because, you know, I don't want to really be like most other people.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:51.839
No disrespect, but a lot of people don't look that happy or healthy or um, you know, in uh in loving relationships or enjoying their work.
00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:54.880
So why would I like why would I want to think like that?
00:22:55.039 --> 00:23:05.359
And you know, as give there's examples everywhere like I've had lots of conversations over the years, but one just the other day with a player, you know, a belief system around I feel imposter syndrome.
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:10.640
So he he's come out of the squad here, he feels a bit of imposter syndrome, is a negative.
00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:13.119
And I I'm like, a negative?
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.200
Like, what does imposter syndrome mean?
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:19.119
It means we're out of comfort zone, we're uncomfortable, we're getting challenged.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.519
So is that not where growth occurs?
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:24.640
If we were comfortable all the time, we'd never feel imposter syndrome.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:25.839
So why is it a bad thing?
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:31.359
Why why don't we have a mindset of how many times can I seek out the feeling of imposter syndrome?
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:40.319
Because it's got to change our whole perspective on whatever it might be asking the tough question or speaking to the coach or challenging yourself in a training activity.
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:49.279
But society would generally speaking, would probably say imposter syndrome is a a negative, you're out your depth, come put pull yourself back, stay safe.
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:53.279
But the opposite can also be true.
00:23:53.440 --> 00:24:08.240
So um just think there's yeah, it's good examples of if being aware of our mindsets, step one, and then deciding and and working to determine which mindsets are then most adaptive for whatever your your sort of performance needs are.
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:11.359
Yeah, I mean it's a it's a test that's really interesting, isn't it?
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:19.839
Because uh is it was it Kurt Ballis that's that said something along that he's the head of creativity at Google last TMR?
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:29.599
Didn't didn't he say something along the lines of the excited and fearful bit of your brain, exactly the same bit of your brain lights up when you're in an MRI.
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:38.480
And it's just really how you relate to the emotion that is what you then do as opposed to there's a different thing going on.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:48.480
Um Although I was thinking while you were saying that, some people ha are drowning in difficult challenges, aren't they?
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:50.720
And then their world tends to narrow.
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:51.680
Right.
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:54.160
They they they're really struggling.
00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:02.480
It's quite in trying to trying to get them to relate to imposter syndrome differently is hard when they're like that.
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:12.880
As opposed to when they are feeling able to because they just think, Oh, but I'm just struggling, I'm really it's really difficult, I'm really challenged.
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:16.319
It's quite difficult to get 'em to think differently in those situations, isn't it?
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:18.480
I think you've got to be quite careful with that.
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:29.440
Yeah, I think uh comes out of education, preparation, you know, uh I I don't say this footly in any me any way at all, because everyone feels challenged.
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:44.240
Uh uh I was I was fortunate enough to have a conversation with there was a horrific terrorist attack in New Zealand a few years ago in Christchurch where a gunman walked into a mosque and he shot shot dead, I think it was around 50 people from memory.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:48.559
Um you talk about challenge, imagine being the first responder on the scene to that.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:58.079
Now I I've spoken to a couple of people that were that and you walk in there, absolutely horrendous carnage.
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.480
Um you talk about overwhelm.
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:07.279
You talk about challenge, that that's you know, there's probably not a lot greater than that.
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:08.480
What do they do?
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:19.839
They step in, they acknowledge the difficulty, they don't they don't rely on feelings of confidence, they they task chunk, they strip it right back down to what can I do right now?
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:24.480
Check the first injured person, you know, uh can they survive?
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:28.319
Yes, move on to the next one, they're critically injured, start treatment.
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:47.279
And so you you know, it's a good sort of analogy, isn't it, for people who may be overwhelmed or have big projects at work or um lots of reports coming in, just the ability to to chunk it down in the in the underlying mindset of rather than being overwhelming, this is just an opportunity to improve.
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:50.880
And to do that, I need to focus on task by task by task.
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:53.920
And you know, it's a really um similar concept.
00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:13.839
But then you think in performance environments like sport, we have people kind of like me, or there's psychologists who are excellent, that put the support packages around athletes, whereas maybe that's less common, say in the business or corporate world where it's maybe more um you know, sort of like t technical skills or implications.
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:16.160
Yeah, there's no technical in the business world.
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:20.880
No, but there's still pressure, there's still demand, there's still challenge, it's just a different context.
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:26.559
We're all human beings with a human brain, so yeah, this is where the problem the transfer can occur.
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.000
Um Definitely.
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:30.079
And then it's getting the reps in, isn't it?
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:32.960
You know, you've got to do the you've you've got to lift the weights.
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:39.200
You know, that that first responder presumably was well trained and and fell back onto skill set.
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:48.240
And I know what I'm gonna do because I've I've been trained and I understand what tasks I need to achieve here.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:50.000
So you're able to fall back on that.
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:54.559
If he hadn't done any of that and he walked into that situation, what would he have done?
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:56.480
Probably run away.
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:00.400
Or just or just randomly milked about.
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:11.039
I mean you you training getting the reps in having the ability to to cope in those situations is is what gets people through it, isn't it?
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:25.599
Uh I mean we have we we have mindfulness coaches at Tyler Grange and I think that's part of that is that ability to recognise when you are you don't you don't always recognise it in the moment the that you're under a huge strain and you're not coping.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.440
You might not notice that.
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:33.680
Yeah, I was being able being trained to be able to recognise that is is quite important.
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:54.880
Um, so I'll take that.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:29:00.400
Um then going, what's the like practicing the skill?
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:06.319
But then what I think you also said there is like none of those responders will have ever seen that before.
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:15.119
So at some point you have to have conviction over confidence, so you have to go, I haven't seen this before, and I'm gonna step into it.
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:23.599
And then it made me think about the skills that are important, and TG has gone from a business, it's not the same.
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:35.279
However, going from a five-day week to a four-day week, some of the same skills around prioritizing, paying attention, focusing, staying present, whatever they are are super important.
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:42.160
And what I think you've added there, Simon, isn't I heard a phrase the other day that that helped me think about this is like this third place.
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:55.920
So, like you're at work, then you've got family, and then you've got this third place, which is the place where you meditate or or or just like sort your brain out a little bit and or and your body and and your soul.
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:56.400
Yeah.
00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:01.279
And yeah, I think also that's a big part of of what you do, David.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:18.880
So like the breath work and all that stuff is is also about allowing people to then, when they haven't been in that moment before, to be able to probably some access some internal skills that might give them a greater chance without some previous history of running a four-minute mile, of being successful in that moment.
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:24.799
I don't know whether I'm talking rubbish or you're nodding, so I'm not sure if that's oh I I totally agree.
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:38.720
I think um when you think about the preparation with the best, even the best preparation in the world, um, difficult to replicate picking a penalty goal to win the World Cup final in front of 80,000 fans for your country.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:52.000
Difficult to replicate that in training, difficult for a special forces military operator, regardless of how thorough the training is, to actually the first time real bullets start flying, to kill him or her.
00:30:52.240 --> 00:31:00.480
That's that's different that's harder than the hardest training because you know they might use paintball rounds or lasers, but it's it's different.
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:13.119
So yeah, having the regulatory tools, the the preparation, the the mindset, the ability to stay on task, they're all the preparation package to allow you to step in.
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:22.720
And again, when you know I sort of mentioned earlier about the opposite, a lot of people talk about building confidence through their preparation.
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:33.359
I I sort of I don't want to disregard like haven't feeling confident's great, but in our biggest moments and our biggest challenges, we're probably not going to feel that confident.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:46.480
So why would we have language or a uh a performance program designed that is to build confidence when at the end of the day, when it when the bullets start flying, I might not feel that confident.
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:50.480
So again, understanding that, but training people to step in with conviction.
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:58.319
So I feel scared, step in, I feel uncertain, step in, I feel overwhelmed, step in, I feel confident, step in.
00:31:58.720 --> 00:33:33.119
So, you know, you start to talk about like wrapping language, wrapping mental models around your program, and um, you know, I think that there's lots of layers into that, but you know, you think about the mindset culture, so like rituals, language, um, inductions, um the particularly language from like inf the CEOs or the the head coaches and the leadership team or the players, that what they say resonates out, you just need to look at like placebo research to see an impact of that type of thing, and then you know, sort of layers around personal identity, personal purpose, um, finding meaning in your work, how you prepare, how you view pressure, how you evolve and adapt and learn, and then ultimately how you can um deliberately transition mindset to almost add a filter or a lens into your brain, like almost like inserting a microchip to the I'm about to go into this um public speaking engagement, boom, I put the microchip in that's my public speaking mindset, or I'm about to go and um do a bungee jump, put a different microchip in there to step into that environment, and we can almost deliberately switch mindsets to try and create this really adaptive internal and psychological environment that uh allows us to perform, and I think you could use that in any you know, definitely in my PhD research, sport first responders, military personnel, huge synergy.
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:37.599
Uh and I would just see business as a an extension of that, whichever direction that is.
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:48.960
But we're all humans, it's the same contexts, we all get stressors, but the the principles underlying that are um the same.
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:51.680
And can I summarise that as well?
00:33:51.759 --> 00:34:00.480
What I've heard, so if you were a business leader, if you were a Simon Ursul, um the language of leadership is really important.
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:03.920
So I agree with that.
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:19.280
Rituals, and again, my sense is you would have found this easier in New Zealand than the US, but they're both sports teams, so but business doesn't do rituals like it does rituals like oh make sure the agenda gets sent out.
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:19.760
Yeah.
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:22.559
Which which might be helpful for mindset, by the way.
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:26.000
But so thinking about what rituals are helpful for your business.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:30.800
Uh then helping people find individual meaning in their work, probably quite important.
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:36.639
Then I put like with with everyone, agreeing what are their one or two or three microchips.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:45.039
And then the last one, and maybe you can speak to this, which I think is just stuff around like the rapid language is just one of people's performance engines.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:54.159
So I really like when you spoke about, and I don't know which player it was, but the um uh breathe talk move.
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:55.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:55.599 --> 00:35:03.199
Do you want to just look to that and then people can extrapolate and work out what that looks like in the office if they're if they're working at business?
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:14.960
Yeah, like sort of comes down to the principle if we if we if we'd start to take physical action or generate some physical momentum, um psychological momentum falls off the back of that.
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:25.840
So a bit like the the first responder at the Christchurch mosque, the first take physical momentum and move towards the first patient, and it generates a kickstart to that psychological momentum.
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:36.800
So we do have um in the work I do, do have some different reset options to sort of present to players, but breath talk move is is really pumped because it's so easy.
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:43.920
So literally taking a breath, um, either to downregulate or up regulate, depending on what that person needs, different breath work pattern.
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:49.840
Talk could be external, you know, come on, um, encouragement.
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:54.559
It could be internal step self-talk around step in, next job.
00:35:54.719 --> 00:36:02.880
Um, it could be uh uh um a link or a keyword back to their performance mindset, and then move is physically move.
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:29.599
So it could be change posture, it could be change rather than walking, it could be uh you know, uh move to like a little uh a jog, so it's like a a physical shift, um nice little process to to generate momentum, and then again, like different different sort of options off the menu, but one that's been really popular certainly with the rugby players and um that I've been working with is having this the concept of a performance engine.
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:39.920
So one of the players was in New Zealand that I was working with, his his objective or his his vision, his goal was to be the best uh sorry, the most impactful winger in wild rugby.
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:46.480
So we kind of have this um this vision, and then we're like, okay, how do we how do we make that happen?
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:50.000
What do you need to do that's under your control?
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:52.800
What actions and behaviours allow that to happen?
00:36:52.960 --> 00:37:13.840
So came up with a little four-step performance engine around um scan, communicate, energy and effort and animation, which was like body language and sort of exerting that um like you know, a bit like um uh a dog on the leash starting to get off, and you're just about to unclip it.
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:22.880
And his job was to repeat that cycle and rev that engine continuously, faster and faster and faster.
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:29.599
And the more he talked, the more he moved, the more energy and effort, the more animation, the more he talked, the more he moved.
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:37.599
It created the environment that allowed him to get the opportunity to be the most impactful winner in the world.
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:46.079
Now, difficult to control if he runs off the inside shoulder of the 10 and he the 10 decides to play out rather than in.
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:48.480
Okay, he didn't get the outcome.
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:51.199
Now just straight back drive that performance engine.
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:52.719
And again, it's really simple.
00:37:52.880 --> 00:38:00.000
We can look at that in training, we can look at that in games, we can review it, we can prompt it, we can challenge it, we can film it.
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:05.519
But it's just a controllable cycle of actions and behaviors that underpin performance.
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:11.519
And I'm I can't think of the top of my head, but in business you could probably take a similar concept.
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:13.280
Um you definitely could.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:14.639
To drive behovers, you know.
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:16.320
You do you definitely could.
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:25.679
I mean, you can be you can be working, you can pause, you can breathe, and you can't you can't sustain working for eight hours in a day, five days a week.
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:26.960
But you can't.
00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:32.719
So you've got to have breaks, so you can you can start building and I mean it's it's individual though, right?
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:34.960
So it's most people most people can't.
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:36.719
I was gonna say most people can't.
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:37.920
Most people can't.
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:44.800
So so you've got you you've gotta come up with a with uh with options, I think Rusty would say.
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:50.480
For people say that they've got they've got some things they can try, some support they can access.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:39:02.239
So they could pause, get up, walk around, breathe, make a cup of tea, there could be rituals in there and then write, I'm gonna I'm gonna go again. 'Cause you can come under the enormous pressure.
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:07.920
You've got to deliver something or someone's gonna lose millions of pounds.
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:11.599
Um that's that's quite pressure.
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:14.639
Um and can cause you to shut down.
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:22.320
And falling back onto back onto routine, onto ritual can help you to get through that.
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:24.800
And it and it does exist in the business world.
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:27.679
It's not just get get an agenda.
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:32.639
It's just not not it's just not often acknowledged or or seen by leaders.
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:34.559
They just think it doesn't matter.
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:42.880
But those rituals, those those cultural um behaviors in any organization exist always.
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:51.920
You've just gotta look for them and try and support them and help the helpful ones and try and move on the less helpful ones.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:58.159
I I would I would think in business, this is just my opinion, no stats to back this up.
00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:20.480
I would think in a business environment, if there was a performance coach or maybe it's a mindset coach or a a performance network embedded in the organization, I would be amazed if you didn't get greater than like seven percent input and increased performance of every staff member.
00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:32.159
So from a business perspective, your return on investment, if you're paying somebody 100,000 salary and their return on that goes up 7%, you're probably quite happy as a business owner.
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:48.719
And I wouldn't imagine the program cost would be 7% of the so you've got to be having a greater margin, and you've probably got to have more longevity, more um staff steam with you for longer, greater productivity, greater motivation, greater health and wellness.
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:54.159
I would be astonished if it was a smaller margin, minimum seven percent, I would say.
00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:59.199
I I completely agree with you that the barrier is always money.
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:02.719
It's like, yeah, I'm spending a hundred thousand quid, prove it.
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:03.199
Yeah.
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:06.639
And uh and then they'll say seven percent gone up.
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:08.960
Yeah, but most of that is because the market's better.
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:12.159
Well, the FD will start saying stuff like that.
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:24.079
It's it's trying to make that link between the stats, it's data, it's information, that this is always where the challenge comes in in business, is it the market gets in the way.
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:33.599
Yeah, but again, it's yeah, but that's uh and the flip side of that is Clark Laidelaw's mindset is Davy Gray's gonna make a difference.
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:37.360
I'm gonna give, you know, like and that is the difference.
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:41.119
It's often down to the leadership, would be my view.
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:51.440
It also made me think about like have you be have you been in places, David, where this hasn't like just hasn't landed, like a bit like Simon's saying there, like, and we'll prove it.
00:41:51.519 --> 00:42:00.719
Like, all there's I'm I'm sure you've got individuals anyway in sport teams that it doesn't, you know, some people engage with you at different kind of levels of this, won't they?
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:01.440
Yeah.
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:02.800
Yeah, absolutely.
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:08.559
Like, it's not all all perfect, and um you just find ways to engage.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:24.960
So, you know, there's some players are less likely to come and have a one-on-one, or you know, you can tell they're they're not as much into thinking about their mind, but you just usually find you know, I've find it a little challenge at training just around things like body height or speed off the ground, they're really into it.
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:30.800
So you're you're just taking like a slightly different avenue into um you know, oh here's a challenge at training.
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:35.119
If I see you without your body height's too high twice, you buy me a coffee.
00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:37.039
If it's less than twice, I'll get your coffee.
00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:40.480
All of a sudden, their actions and behaviors aligned to what they want to get.
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:42.559
You buy them a coffee, they've got better.
00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:47.199
If I had a bit of fun, you know, you've engaged them, and then next time they're like and you've got a meeting.
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:50.480
And you've suddenly got a meeting with them because you've got to get together.
00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:54.320
Uh or the texting you, or um, and it sometimes takes time.
00:42:54.400 --> 00:43:15.679
Like there's one player, I won't say it is um, you know, I've been well have I done five seasons with the Kings now, um, comes along to all the compulsory stuff, all the education sessions, and very very little around um following up one-on-ones or anything like that, and then slowly engage them with just real basic challenges like this.
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:35.920
Now he's currently um on a different tour and getting messages off him every week to send him uh guided visualization scripts for a game he's about to play in two days' time, and you can probably guess what tour it is, one of the probably the biggest rugby tour and while growing at the moment.
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.280
So, over a period of three or four years, yeah, it was a slow burner at the start.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:42.079
Then he starts to come along with stuff, then he gets invested.
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:45.440
Now I've not seen him for four months, but he's still messaging.
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:54.639
So there's loads of different ways to um you know, and there's just different ways to skin the cat.
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:57.199
Some guys it's it's like physical preparation, is it?
00:43:57.360 --> 00:43:59.760
Some guys need to do the be in the gym four or five.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.239
Days a week to keep their body mass, and some guys can just do it once a week, and they're all good.
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:07.119
So there's the same in the mind, isn't it?
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.280
Some guys want more support, some guys want less.
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:21.840
Straight away my mind went to the underlying mindset and business.
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:24.400
So who's going to be the early adopter?
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:25.840
Who's going to or there will be?
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:29.360
Who are the guys that are already doing this and the edge they've got?
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:36.559
And is the cost benefit is that really just a uh approximate definition?
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:44.719
I mean, I've got uh Tyler Grain just got a psych uh an in-house psychologist, a mindful mindfulness coach.
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:52.320
Rusty Rusty currently works with the FD, Danny Rusty, who who we don't definitely don't tease on this podcast, James.
00:44:54.400 --> 00:44:58.719
Um but it's uh and it definitely I mean it hits the bottom line, it makes money.
00:44:58.960 --> 00:44:59.760
There's no doubt about it.
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:03.599
The the issue is a lot of leaders don't believe it.
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:06.239
And I think yes, it doesn't really work though.
00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:07.519
It's a lot of woke.
00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:18.880
I mean I hear the word woo woo used a hell of a lot in this in this arena, which I I I have to confess the irritation does rise in me when I hear that phrase.
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:27.199
Because it's not woo woo, it's it's it's as hard as it gets actually to to to really get into this stuff and deal with it.
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:36.159
Um it it's really uh you've got to actually be a very strong person certainly a very strong leader to be able to to be able to drive it forward.
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.880
But yeah, I mean it's it it hits the bottom line.
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:47.599
I've got a a new startup looking at fatigue, which is absolutely definitely linked to the well it's not linked to is this.
00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:53.039
It's the capacity mindset, it's it's a direct way of measuring it.
00:45:53.199 --> 00:46:00.719
So so yeah, I've I I mean, but most business leaders, 90, 99%, will think, yeah, but I've got to spend the money.
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:02.800
I've got a lot of pressure on my budget.
00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:15.679
I'm not risking the money on this because I'm not gonna be able to say to my investors to the market that led to this, and they've got to take the risk, but yeah, they'll be their business isn't as good as it could be.
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:17.119
That isn't your market.
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:18.400
Yeah, I do.
00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:20.639
And it's and it's the same in sport though, really.
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:23.599
Like to separate your impact.
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:27.440
I know what your impact is, but it is quite hard to do, isn't it?
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:29.039
Oh, yeah, 100%.
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:42.000
I don't think we could look at the super rugby championship winning team last year, and you can you can't just put and say David Gray contributed 33% of that or two percent of that.
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:48.320
It's it's there's a there's a huge amount of factors, and that's only there's a huge amount of factors just within the organization.
00:46:48.480 --> 00:47:09.119
Never mind, people have lives outside the organization as well, and they're meeting people in the supermarket, and they've got partners who are talking to them and they're listening to the radio and seeing social media and you know getting interviewed off somebody on Sky TV and they have the ch off-chat camera and the the pundit will just subconsciously infiltrate their thinking.
00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:10.559
And so there's all this stuff going on.
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:17.760
So it's it's uh if performance was clean-cut, you know, like a a scientific study in a lab, it'd be quite easy, wouldn't it?
00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:23.599
But real world, it's messy, it's it's well you wouldn't have a job, would you, if it was so it's kind of good that it isn't.
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:23.920
Yeah.
00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:32.639
Um but I think if you're if you're with good people and the gut feel is of it's it's not scientific, it's difficult to prove, isn't it?
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:35.440
But you've got people who have been around performance environments.
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:46.159
And it I met with Clarky, our head coach, um, probably before four or six weeks ago now, and JM Rugby and Clarky literally sat down, and the first thing he said to me was because David had been thinking over the weekend.
00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:49.840
I I think mindset is the most critical and highest priority thing.
00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:51.599
You need to get right in the environment.
00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:54.400
So that's the head coach said that.
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:56.320
I'm like, well, I do kind of agree.
00:47:56.480 --> 00:48:03.119
Um it's not the only thing, it's not the end goal, but such a you know, it's the portal into everything else.
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:06.159
So um Well, everyone knows it, don't they?
00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:15.519
I think when you actually speak to everybody one-on-one, even the most cynical person, if you say to them, is uh is is the organizational mindset important?
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:17.360
They go, Yeah, of course it is.
00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:18.559
Obviously.
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:23.679
But then they do nothing constructively to influence it.
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:25.599
They just go, Yeah, well, it is what it is.
00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:27.599
That's not I can't do anything about it.
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:28.639
But yes, it's important.
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.920
It's like, well, you definitely can do something about it.
00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:35.199
It's kind of weird, isn't it, that that's the case, but it is true.
00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:41.519
Yeah, it's not it's not weird just because it's hard to do, it's hard to measure.
00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:42.960
It's it was interesting.
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:49.360
I was listening to to uh uh love him or not, but uh Andrew Huberman, he's quite uh scientific.
00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:59.920
And he was speaking a lot yesterday about religion and spirituality and how he's thinking about things differently, and you know, you see things now and you just can't explain them scientifically.
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:15.679
And that is the the hard part is that often people want the science and they they're not they're not as excited about like the the craft or the art of of coaching or leadership, or and I think this this fits neatly into that.
00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:27.679
But I think you're doing it in quite a scientific there is some science behind what you do, but I think you're doing it in a very like playful, adaptable, skillful way.
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:28.480
Yeah.
00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:50.480
Like I've been really conscious that's been the great thing with uh professional doctorate is you're obviously reading a lot of uh you know peer-reviewed, published academic research, and you can take the principles of that and then apply them and you know, nudge them and mould them into real world working with athletes, working with a business.
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:55.679
Um, but you know, there's so much you know the power of um reflection.
00:49:55.840 --> 00:50:22.960
You know, we talked about um COVID a little bit earlier, the COVID period, two or three years after COVID, they took a group of people, they did a mindset intervention where they changed the mindset from um um pandemics are catastrophes to pandemics are opportunities, and they did like a reflective process and people's wellness, people's health, people's perception of happiness, people's um physiological markers of stress changed.
00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:28.159
So there's all this uh quite unbelievable mindset research around, you know.
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:52.559
I think we'd probably think about mindset as being a way of thinking or like an attitude and it's or a motivational state, but there's all this stuff under the hood that's that's happening, changes in inflammatory biomarkers, changing how we digest food, changing how we um are cardiorespiratory, so how we transfer oxygen and carbon dioxide, and what that'll change quite amazingly, that'll change just by changing somebody's mindset.
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:58.559
So there's all this stuff that's gone on um that probably people aren't aren't really aware of.
00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:02.880
So even you know, that first step, what are mindsets and what do they do?
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:15.920
If I was in any position of authority, a business owner, even if as a sole businessman, I'd be having a look at a little educational session for myself, you know, just to understand that.
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:23.199
And and you think about your family, your friends, how what they're how you how you could um potentially support their growth as well.
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:27.440
So um yeah, I just think it it's a fascinating area, isn't it?
00:51:27.760 --> 00:51:35.360
And as you mentioned, it's not really it's talked about as being really important and critical, but then not really actioned.
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:37.039
It's quite quite strange.
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:42.079
That is a great place to end, and we have gone massively over time as usual.
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:46.159
Um but but yeah, brilliant.
00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:49.519
I mean, uh, I'm definitely thinking differently.
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:51.519
I love these podcasts.
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:57.119
Um you literally coming on before my eyes you have changed, Simon.
00:51:59.920 --> 00:52:00.559
I hope I look good.
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:01.840
I hope I look good then.
00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:09.039
Yeah, Davy Tomman, enjoy the rest of your time in uh Japan and uh we'll catch you up soon.
00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:09.840
Yeah, mate.
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:10.960
Talk soon, thanks, Rusty.
00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:11.519
Thanks, Simon.
00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:12.000
Nice to meet you.
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:12.639
We'll keep in touch.
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:13.920
Yeah, yeah, see ya.
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:17.199
Well, that was good.
00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:19.119
I mean he's a cool guy.
00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:20.000
Thanks again, I'm on.
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:20.800
I love it.
00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:28.159
And but plus somebody like him, it's not just about it's the impact he's having on people that and around him.
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:43.760
Yeah, he's yeah, he's you can see the impact he's having, like, when you're there alongside him and players uh like becoming good learners, he's helping them, like, yeah, it's it's cool, it's cool.
00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:46.880
Like, I love the analogy of being at the airport.
00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:51.039
So I didn't know Davy Gray when he first checked in at the airport.
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:54.960
So obviously, more recently, he's like getting on a lot more flights.
00:52:55.119 --> 00:52:57.119
So to use his analogy.
00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:00.239
Yeah, that's that's that is cool.
00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:02.960
Yeah, I mean, great guy, great guy.
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:06.559
I I really like this idea of opposite thinking.
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:10.880
It's nice that you put that into context for me as well, because I do think that's what I do.
00:53:11.199 --> 00:53:17.519
I tend to try and do things that other people don't always do.
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:20.079
I'm in the COVID talk, you know.
00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:28.880
Because I do I mean things like recessions are thinking are awful and I think you do better, people decide to terrible things.
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:42.320
However, a recession is an unbelievable opportunity for business to to get better because it's uh it's a fairness in which you improve, you've got to be good to be good in a recession, and then when you're not in a recession, you're a mate.
00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:47.599
It's uh it's one of those things that really it really resonated with me what he said there.
00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:50.559
I'd love to know more about what he's done at the Coins.
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:54.320
So yeah, that that really, really hit home.
00:53:54.480 --> 00:54:04.639
And I guess I'm kind of thinking as well with um imposter syndrome, thinking actually that's learning, but you're learning an uncomfortable phase of it.
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:10.559
You want to have imposters in it, you don't want to get rid of it, you want to feel like you shouldn't be there, that you're really stretching yourself.
00:54:10.639 --> 00:54:18.000
That is that's brilliant, and I will be using that this week in my in my work with people.
00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:29.519
Yeah, it's you think about yeah, it's I guess it's like zone of proximal development, like the right amount of imposter syndrome is exactly what we should be seeking if we want to get better.
00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:32.559
So yes, that's a very good, that's a nice catch, actually.
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:34.000
It's the right amount, isn't it?
00:54:34.159 --> 00:54:39.440
Because if you if you say, Yeah, let's have the most imposter syndrome we can find, that's going to be really unpleasant.
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:40.960
It's interesting, isn't it?
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:45.039
Even just the language of imposter syndrome is probably not that helpful.
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:49.840
It's a bit like uh ADHD, you know, the deficit disorder.
00:54:50.239 --> 00:55:01.760
But in um in Maori, so again, I'll go back to New Zealand, the their their word for ADHD actually means uh your mind goes to lots of places.
00:55:02.800 --> 00:55:03.280
Yeah.
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:10.639
And and their word for autism translates as uh in his or her own space and time.
00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:14.719
And so just feel a bit more, yeah.
00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:17.840
Again, I'm I'm not sure the word imposter syndrome is helpful.
00:55:18.159 --> 00:55:19.280
No, I I hear that.
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:20.400
That that's saying true.
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:33.360
Again, good catch, because it's probably not him not helpful to point to it, but it's helpful to be aware of it as a coach that that's actually good feedback for you, that that's that person with the right amount of imposter syndrome is learning.
00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:36.639
And that's uh that's not like something you necessarily want to fix.
00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:40.320
Um, it's just to help them feel more comfortable in themselves.
00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:48.639
I love that Maori, that that that sort of idea that um they're taking by personal approach, aren't they?
00:55:48.880 --> 00:55:53.519
They're coming from that person's point of view rather than external observation.
00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:59.440
Yeah, thinking about how that person feels rather than looking at it from the outside, which is I think beautiful.
00:55:59.760 --> 00:56:00.639
Yeah, it's beautiful.
00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:04.079
And probably like, yeah, I mean Davey referenced it, doesn't he?
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:07.679
So one of the things he's helping people with is finding individual meaning.
00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:19.840
And again, you're trying to do that in sports teams and in business, like you're probably trying to find collective direction of where we're going, and then you're probably trying to find individual meaning within that.
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:23.119
So, where where am I do I feel connected to that?
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:30.400
I guess some of the the the things that Dave uses, like I really like the performance engines, I've seen them in action.
00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:40.320
It was cool for him to explain a couple more around the stuff you can control that you can just like do when you have those moments where you're not sure what to do.
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:54.719
Uh, and I think we I know we didn't speak loads and loads, but definitely reference like some of the ritual stuff that would be really normal in the southern hemisphere around connection and meaning and all of those things.
00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:59.440
And then guess the main thing for me is probably like just that you know, this is the stuff.
00:56:59.679 --> 00:57:03.840
Davy just looks at different stuff to normal kind of coaches or leaders.
00:57:04.159 --> 00:57:05.599
Yeah, that can be quite.
00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:06.880
I mean, obviously.
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:08.079
Yeah, I love him for that.
00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:09.199
I love him for that.
00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:13.199
So he's just got a slightly different lens, which has yeah, just been helpful for me.
00:57:13.280 --> 00:57:22.000
I spent most of the summer uh taking his stuff and uh hopefully uh making it different or better and trying to do it in different ways.
00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:26.639
And so it's uh yeah, he's uh yeah, that's that's the bit that I love.
00:57:26.719 --> 00:57:29.039
It's just that slightly different lens.
00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:40.320
It's the empty chair and spotlight, it's the the the my the person who's looking, you know, sat in the room looking at the whole experience through the view of mindset.
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:43.440
Yeah, what a cool guy.
00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:47.119
What a cool we I mean we've got to get him back on, but then we say that about every guest.
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:50.719
Maybe you need to but maybe you need to put flights to New Zealand now.
00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:52.719
Oh, yeah, I'd love to.
00:57:52.880 --> 00:57:55.199
I'm not sure my missus would be that happy about that.
00:57:56.880 --> 00:57:57.440
Yeah.
00:57:57.760 --> 00:57:59.440
But yeah, I would love to.
00:57:59.679 --> 00:58:01.519
Well, um, nice one, Rusty.
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:02.559
Another amazing guest.
00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:03.920
Hope you enjoyed it, listen.
00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:09.840
Thanks so much for joining us on the Ban Specability podcast with Tamar and Rustell.
00:58:09.920 --> 00:58:11.840
We've really enjoyed your company.
00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:15.039
If you want to reach out to us, Simon, where can they reach you up?
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:16.719
Um LinkedIn's best place.
00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:19.760
Simon Ertel, U R Sugar E L L.
00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:20.400
Send me a message.
00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:21.840
Rusty, where can we find you?
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:22.639
TikTok?
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:23.360
No, not really.
00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:29.679
LinkedIn, Rustal, and then the same on Twitter, but please uh ignore all my political thoughts.
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:30.480
Yeah, second.