055: Mistakes, Grace, Boundaries: A Conversation with Rabbi Hannah Jensen

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I think we have this idea that maybe we get to a point in our lives where we feel like, done.
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You know, I fixed all the things I needed to fix.
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I went to therapy. I worked through all my childhood things.
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I'm not triggered by anything anymore. I have no traumas.
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I'm engaging with my partner, my children, my friends with no issues.
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Everything's resolved. I'm doing great.
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And that time never comes. And it doesn't matter if you talk to a 15-year-old
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or a 95-year-old, Everyone is still in this evolving space and everyone still
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feels like they're making teenage mistakes.
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Everyone still feels like they can't quite figure it out. And I think it's one
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of the great equalizers of all of us. And also I think...
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It takes a lot of work to release the expectation or this dream that one day you're going to arrive.
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That was Rabbi Hannah Jensen, one of the rabbis at our shul, IKAR.
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Our conversation was inspired by the song Worth Decanting, which was itself inspired by Psalm 25.
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I'm Shep Rosenman, and this is The Rest is Commentary, where we explore what
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songs inspired by the Psalms or Tehillim inspire in my guests.
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Rabbi Jensen is the Assistant Rabbi and Director of Community Organizing at IKAR in Los Angeles.
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She has an incredible heart, warmth, and presence, and was ordained by the Ziegler
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School of Rabbinic Studies in 2023.
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She spent many years working with B'nai Mitzvah students, involved in community
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organizing leadership, working with adults learning Hebrew, and always trying to meet new people.
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Rabbi Jensen spent two and a half years working as a spiritual counselor at
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Beit Teshuvah, a residential addiction treatment center, and did fellowships
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with Truah, the Rabbinic Call for Human Rights, and the New Israel Fund.
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When not engaging in a variety of Jewish injustice work, Rabbi Jensen loves
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walking. Yes, people walk in L.A., discovering new donut shops, writing, and the moon.
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Connect with her at rabbijensen, J-E-N-S-E-N, at ikar.org.
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We discuss the importance of mistakes, vulnerability, and forgiveness,
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how extending grace creates real connection, differentiating between friendship
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and relationship as a rabbi, the tension between discomfort and safety,
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creating space for each other in relationships of any type,
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the importance of continuing to grow, and so much more.
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Let's begin by listening to Worth Decanting.
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Hi, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
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So I'm going to start us off with
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one question, and we'll see where the conversation goes from there. Great.
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In the same way that I was inspired to write this, and my personal view is that
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every creative act is kind of a gift from the muses, a gift from God.
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So I feel like I received a gift. I offered you a bunch of songs.
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You chose this one, and so this one was your gift. Like in our family,
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we let people choose their gifts.
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So I'm hoping that just as the song was inspired by reading this to Hillem,
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that it inspired something in you.
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And I'm wondering whether that's love, loathing, questions, curiosity,
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hatred, hope, whatever it is, I want to talk about it.
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It definitely was not hate or loathing. So we can get those out of the way.
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I think that from the first time I heard it, there was something in it that
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I wanted to know more about.
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So I listened to it a few times and then I started to kind of get a sense of it more.
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And I didn't actually look at the lyrics for a while. And so I could hear them,
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but I think it's very different to hear them than to see them because you kind
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of sort of get it, but you need to see it up front and up close.
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And I think then I really had this other sense of it. And I think the first
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thing that really struck me was just this fixation on mistakes and on errors.
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And I think in the psalm, it's about our relationship with God.
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But I think for me, the first thing I thought of was just our relationships
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in life with anyone in our lives and with self and how much we fixate on errors
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and mistakes and falling short.
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And the ways that that can hold us back in the world or in our relationships.
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And so I think that first, the first thing that came to me was just really this
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idea of mistakes. And I think that's the thing that really caught me from the beginning.
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There's even the verse 7, I think. It says.
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So don't worry or don't remember my youthful sins.
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So I think it doesn't—mistake isn't really a word that would have been used
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in that way, but I think sin or falling short or these things show up in these
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ways, and then there's this focus in the psalm on,
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having God show you God's ways and kind of get you back on track in some way.
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And there's an early verse about God not being disappointed or being embarrassed
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even in the second verse—.
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And so I think that that does really come out from the song,
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but it was interesting because I listened to the song before I went back to the song.
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And so I was piecing it together almost backward. I saw where you had gone and
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then I was seeing where it came from,
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which was a really fascinating way to do it, I think, because then I thought,
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oh, wow, what you saw in it or what inspiration you took from it may have been
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very different from what someone else would have seen in it.
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But I think that that focus to me was such an accessible one and such an emotional
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one in some ways, because I think you are more familiar with the Psalms than
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most people at this point, probably.
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But I think one of the things about the Psalms is that they can feel so esoteric
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in some ways and so inaccessible.
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And I know a lot of people who just don't even try to read the Psalms because
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they feel like, what am I going to get out of this strange psalm?
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And I think it's really a gift to put them into language that people can actually
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hear and that resonate with people.
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And so for me, the choice or the inspiration or however you want to understand
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it to focus on my mistakes and hoping that there weren't that many of them or
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hoping that they weren't that big,
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to me was such a powerful message.
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Well, so like for me, first of all, when Sherry Hirsch was here, do you know Sherry?
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She's like, I can't stand the Psalms. So that was like her first obstacle.
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And we had a whole conversation about how the Psalms can be accessible if you're
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willing to kind of dive into this language.
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That is not easy to read. It is accessible for many of the themes,
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you know, I guess for people who don't believe in God,
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It's probably, that's a barrier that's hard to get through.
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But all the themes, you know, the psalmist's pain, the psalmist's fear, the psalmist's joy.
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I mean, it all comes up. These are things we can connect to.
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And ultimately, that's what I'm seeking to do with this project,
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find ways of connecting.
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And, you know, for me, like every time I sit down with one of these,
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I could probably write 150 songs for each psalm, you know?
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So for this one, Psalm 25, this is the second time I'm discussing a song based on Psalm 25.
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The other one was a song that I wrote with my friend Ray Allen Kyanik,
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and my discussion partner was Rabbi Browse.
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Wow. So you guys have that connection. That is so fascinating.
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This is like the Ikar Psalm.
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Well, you have to interview all of them and see what the other ones choose because
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there aren't any other 25 left. That's so interesting.
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But I'm trying as much as I can to come up with new songs so that I hit all
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150. I forget to put things on the list, so I don't know where I am.
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But that's a good example. I mean, forgetfulness is a form of a mistake.
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And I moved to mistake rather than sin because I can't handle the idea of sin, capital S.
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And I don't know that a sin, like, hate is not necessarily sin.
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It's just how we translate it.
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And I suspect if you look, you know, what's the source of a sin?
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Well, you know, you were supposed to do X, you didn't do X, or you did Y when
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you're not supposed to do Y.
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Why is that different than a mistake? I mean, to the extent it's bemazed,
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intentional, thank you,
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maybe that's not a mistake, although if you have regret afterwards,
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then the intention was the mistake.
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And so I think that that comes up every day in every way in every relationship.
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And I often try to write these so that they operate on multiple levels.
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You know, Guide Me Back to You could be a conversation with God.
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I think that that's language from the Tehillim, the psalm.
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But it could also be, okay, Shari and I have had a fight. My kids and I have
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had a fight. How do we come back together?
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In fact, when, you know, there was a period where Maya was struggling with some
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mental health issues, and we just didn't know how to connect with her.
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We didn't know how to talk to her.
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So this notion of guide me back to you, she gave us specific language,
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don't say this, say that.
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And the power of being able to do that, to stay connected even in tension,
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That's, I mean, what a gift that is for a then 16, 17-year-old with her therapist's
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help to be able to say to us,
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I can't handle when you say it this way, but I can hear the same thing if you say it this other way.
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You know, the presuming the best intentions of people, or at least giving them
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some benefit of the doubt, I think is happening less and less in the world.
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And I think that it's very easy to jump to conclusions, often to bad conclusions
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about people or things in the world.
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And I think in this moment, especially when it feels like the world is getting
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more and more polarized, more and more radicalized in certain ways,
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that it feels like there are groups, there are teams. And either you're on my
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team or you're against me.
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And there's no nuance in that conversation. And there's no space to actually
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have a conversation because,
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you've already written that person off because of something you heard or saw
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or someone else told you about what that person thought or said or felt that
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doesn't actually leave space to be in any kind of relationship with people.
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Which is not to say that we're all going to get along and see the world the
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same way and which is not to say that there are people who don't deserve the
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benefit of the doubt and who don't deserve that kind of grace
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but i think we cut people off so quickly from that yeah and i think especially when we're hurt,
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we are much less able to extend any kind of compassion or grace or benefit of
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the doubt to other people.
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And I think that this kind of interpretation of the psalm, I think.
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Is this vulnerable ask in some ways that someone is making of someone else,
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which is give me the benefit of the doubt. Right.
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See me as a flawed person just like all of us, but understand that I'm learning and I'm growing. Yeah.
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And as opposed to, you're right,
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I'm a terrible person and everything that I've ever said or done is bad.
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But I think we do that to ourselves and also more and more in the world we see
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people doing that to each other.
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And I think that this is an invitation into a kind of more nuanced space and more,
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complex understanding of what it means to be in relationship and that it's always
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going to involve mistakes and falling short.
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Yeah. Look, there's so much richness in what you just said. Randomly,
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I'm going to pick this one because it's the first one that came to mind.
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In preparing for our conversation, I went back and I pulled up my old songwriting notes.
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I'm Very process-oriented. You know, some people, you know, they have this gift
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of nevoie, of prophecies.
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Like, they open their minds, words come out. And every once in a while,
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like, I will find that. Like, my first draft is pretty close to my final draft.
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This was not one of them. This was very process-oriented. It was I read the
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psalm, I pulled out the language that moved me, And I then did a whole bunch
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of journaling in kind of lyric poetry format.
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And one of the lines that I wrote was, complexity and nuance are not acceptable in this country.
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We're like kids in that way. And I think that that's what, where the lyric...
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Teenage blunders comes from. Yeah, I'm kind of a kid. Yeah, yeah.
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And I think that we resort back to that.
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You said, you mentioned hurt, but fear and anger. Yeah. And either of those
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can be connected to hurt.
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But fear and anger are strong prompters. And this moment...
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The extreme right and the extreme left are pushing agendas that make their polar
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opposites and everyone in between very afraid and very angry.
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So that cuts off the conversation right there. And the same is true about Israel,
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especially now, you know, we're having this conversation on day 187.
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Am I getting that right? Yeah.
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Day 187 that the hostages have been in Gaza, that the war has been going on.
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And not everybody has the same views on this, you know.
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And our rabbi has a very nuanced view.
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And people only hear one part of it or the other, and she gets crap from both sides for that reason.
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You know, I think anyone who studies Gemara, the Talmud, and anyone who has done a lot of,
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legal research, and this is probably true in other fields as well,
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but I'm focusing on those because those are my areas of experience.
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You learn how to look at something from different angles and to allow for alternative
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perspectives, even if you disagree with them.
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And that's something that we've lost.
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Oh, absolutely. I think part of it, too, is we've conflated discomfort with being unsafe.
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And so I think that—and Rabbi Braus, who you've mentioned also in her recent
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book that came out, The Amen Effect, she kind of speaks to this. But,
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We've labeled anyone who disagrees with us or not anyone, but most people who
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disagree with us as being an unsafe environment for us to enter into conversation
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as opposed to as you're saying, okay, I'm creating the space for conversation
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with people who I may not agree with.
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And some of that might make me uncomfortable and I'm going to be okay.
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That discomfort doesn't threaten me physically or mentally or emotionally.
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But that it just isn't what I would choose for myself or not the way that I see the world.
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But that we've lost the ability to sit in that discomfort because,
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of real threats, I think, that exist in the world and not being able to tell
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necessarily where am I actually safe and just uncomfortable and where am I unsafe.
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I love that distinction. I think
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it's really powerful. I actually want to take it farther in two ways.
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One, I would say that it is incumbent upon us when in any productive discomfort
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to lead with curiosity, right?
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Because if we lead with curiosity, then the fear goes away, right?
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It's, if you will, it's opposite action. Another more language we learned,
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I learned from Maya, right?
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You want to step away? Lean in and be curious.
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So that's one thing. And the other thing that your words struck in me are that I think—.
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Social media, there's tremendous value in it. You know, I have a gig coming
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up in a week. I posted it on social media.
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So there's lots of positivity that comes up in that.
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But because of, I think it's called the meaningful algorithm,
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we end up being directed to the posts that the algorithm says are meaningful
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to us, rather than a curiosity algorithm, which says, here's a different perspective.
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And I think that it's only gotten worse.
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And it goes back to, I forget the name of the case, but there's a milestone,
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decision that was made, or a milestone legislation that,
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created TV and cable as we know it,
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the losing of the FinCEN rules,
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the lack of a requirement of balance, all of that just paved the way for the
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much more extreme version on social media. And I think,
00:22:19.204 --> 00:22:23.503
People tend to, like, I don't think that there's Kavanaugh here.
00:22:23.503 --> 00:22:25.926
I don't think that there's Maiset. It's not intentional.
00:22:26.617 --> 00:22:30.873
I think people just kind of habituate to what's in front of them.
00:22:30.873 --> 00:22:33.583
You know, if there are French fries in the fridge, you're going to eat French fries.
00:22:33.883 --> 00:22:37.987
You know, if there's salad, you're going to eat salad, at least some of the time.
00:22:38.643 --> 00:22:43.153
I don't know that this is a realistic recipe, but if the world were up to me,
00:22:43.757 --> 00:22:50.113
for every post you read that was extreme left-wing, you'd also get one that's
00:22:50.113 --> 00:22:55.573
center and extreme right, just so you understand the issue from three perspectives,
00:22:55.573 --> 00:22:57.391
or five or ten, whatever it is.
00:22:58.251 --> 00:23:00.538
And I think that's how you become educated.
00:23:01.523 --> 00:23:06.473
That's the brilliance of Chavrusa, right? Because Rezlakesh died,
00:23:06.473 --> 00:23:11.475
and Rabbi Yochanan, they were Chavrusas, they were study partners.
00:23:11.789 --> 00:23:18.513
So in his death, the yeshiva, the academy, brought him different chavrusas to
00:23:18.513 --> 00:23:21.818
learn with and console him in his time of grieving.
00:23:22.177 --> 00:23:25.463
And, you know, the first guy came along and Rabbi Yochanan would say,
00:23:25.783 --> 00:23:29.904
oh, well, this is the law. And the study partner would say, you're right.
00:23:30.217 --> 00:23:34.304
And get me a new study partner. Bring another guy. Same thing would happen. You're right.
00:23:34.652 --> 00:23:39.703
And finally, Rabbi Yochanan articulates, for every argument I came up with,
00:23:39.703 --> 00:23:44.523
Reish Lakish would come up with 100 counterpoints because the whole point is
00:23:44.943 --> 00:23:46.623
refine each other's understanding.
00:23:46.623 --> 00:23:49.793
It's not about me being right or you being right, but together we come to a
00:23:49.793 --> 00:23:50.838
greater understanding.
00:23:51.110 --> 00:23:56.236
And we could come up with different conclusions, but we've refined each other in the process. Yeah.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:01.563
And, like, to me, that's ultimately what all these processes are about,
00:24:02.223 --> 00:24:06.813
whether in a marriage, you know, parents-child relationships, close friends.
00:24:08.071 --> 00:24:13.665
You have to be able to have uncomfortable conversations. Even lawyers who should
00:24:13.665 --> 00:24:19.983
know how to do it, they just go to the ugly place instead of engaging in healthy debate.
00:24:20.790 --> 00:24:27.799
Yeah. And I think we have both lost it in a more professional,
00:24:28.211 --> 00:24:33.227
more expansive, global way, and we've also lost it interpersonally.
00:24:33.831 --> 00:24:37.539
Because I think we're not practicing it as much.
00:24:37.823 --> 00:24:41.568
And so I think we are quicker to feel,
00:24:42.206 --> 00:24:46.645
unable to engage in hard conversations even with the people closest to us because
00:24:46.645 --> 00:24:51.185
I think we're seeing less modeling of that in the world and we're exposed to
00:24:51.185 --> 00:24:53.815
less of that ourselves because as you said,
00:24:54.401 --> 00:24:57.945
we're seeing kind of all the news that we're seeing or all the updates we're
00:24:57.945 --> 00:25:02.406
seeing are confirmation of what we already believe or have seen or know.
00:25:02.766 --> 00:25:08.645
And so we aren't expanding ourselves in those ways. And so then if your partner,
00:25:08.645 --> 00:25:12.940
child, sibling, close friend sees something differently from you,
00:25:13.253 --> 00:25:14.431
it also feels like a threat.
00:25:15.325 --> 00:25:19.587
We've really lost the ability even in those relationships to maintain,
00:25:20.250 --> 00:25:24.632
as you said earlier, maintain connection in that kind of tension.
00:25:25.056 --> 00:25:29.055
There's also someone close to me is going through this. I'm not going to name
00:25:29.055 --> 00:25:30.365
them because I don't want to make...
00:25:31.368 --> 00:25:39.120
The subject of this uncomfortable. But I'm the type of person who appreciates
00:25:39.120 --> 00:25:46.293
it when people share articles, whatever, just like, I'll read it or a podcast.
00:25:46.548 --> 00:25:51.000
You know, if my friend or family member was moved by something,
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.110
I want to understand that because it connects me to them.
00:25:53.790 --> 00:25:58.730
You know, even if I ultimately disagree with it, that's an opportunity for conversation.
00:25:59.690 --> 00:26:06.111
But this other person in my life has been sending articles to friends and getting
00:26:06.546 --> 00:26:08.903
radio silence in response.
00:26:09.745 --> 00:26:15.260
And they talk to several of the people that they've been sending articles to.
00:26:15.260 --> 00:26:17.628
And, you know, one's like, I'm too busy.
00:26:18.630 --> 00:26:21.639
One's like, I don't agree with you.
00:26:22.783 --> 00:26:26.610
And one's like, deeply threatened by the articles.
00:26:28.187 --> 00:26:35.150
And because this person was willing to raise the issue, they sourced all of those answers.
00:26:36.199 --> 00:26:40.170
But the people that were receiving the articles did not feel strong,
00:26:40.170 --> 00:26:42.757
healthy, secure enough to come back and say,
00:26:43.891 --> 00:26:48.252
Please don't send them to me. Or please do send them to me. Just know that,
00:26:48.252 --> 00:26:50.798
you know, they're a little bit threatening.
00:26:51.205 --> 00:26:53.068
Right? Like, just whatever it is.
00:26:53.620 --> 00:27:01.902
And I think that that's just a malady right now. We've lost the art of being
00:27:01.902 --> 00:27:04.042
able to simply just talk to each other.
00:27:04.502 --> 00:27:08.642
You know, look, my parents, they fought with a lot of people.
00:27:09.262 --> 00:27:11.977
Mostly family members. Some customers, too.
00:27:12.651 --> 00:27:21.805
And even though my dad did it inartfully, he always raised the issue because
00:27:22.037 --> 00:27:26.008
maintaining the connection was most important. That was the dominant value.
00:27:26.257 --> 00:27:29.648
He would write letters. He would confront people angrily.
00:27:30.540 --> 00:27:35.652
He'd also like have gentle conversations. Like I got those. I think I got more
00:27:35.652 --> 00:27:37.824
of those than my brother. My brother got more anger.
00:27:38.770 --> 00:27:43.562
So you were talking about modeling. Like, it starts right here,
00:27:43.562 --> 00:27:49.522
right at home. And I think that, you know, some of the challenge may be that
00:27:49.522 --> 00:27:53.202
we live in these massive communities.
00:27:53.662 --> 00:27:59.902
You know, Icar is a massive community, right? More and more by the day, it feels like so.
00:28:00.702 --> 00:28:05.242
So even, like, we were just talking about this before we started,
00:28:05.702 --> 00:28:10.833
the Zoom minion for IKAR is 50 people.
00:28:11.327 --> 00:28:15.506
And it's a rotating 50 people. It's not the same 50 people every day.
00:28:15.646 --> 00:28:20.722
You see some of the same people every day, and when you're very intentional,
00:28:20.722 --> 00:28:23.492
you build relationships within that community.
00:28:23.492 --> 00:28:29.355
But that's a subset of a subset, you know, the Zoom Minion, IKAR,
00:28:29.849 --> 00:28:34.405
which is a subset of the Jewish community in Los Angeles, a subset of the community in Los Angeles,
00:28:35.595 --> 00:28:39.312
It's hard to stay on top of all these relationships.
00:28:39.312 --> 00:28:42.882
You have to have kavana and keva.
00:28:42.882 --> 00:28:47.559
You have to have intention and a routine where you stay connected and.
00:28:49.002 --> 00:28:56.482
In play, in curiosity with other people, where you together choose a measure
00:28:56.482 --> 00:29:03.022
of unsafety with a goal of productive discomfort and perhaps learning.
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:07.142
I think also, I really hear what you're saying.
00:29:07.142 --> 00:29:12.363
I think some of it is that we are now able, because of technology,
00:29:12.944 --> 00:29:19.142
to be connected to so many people that we don't have the capacity or the ability
00:29:19.142 --> 00:29:21.884
to build deep relationships in the same ways.
00:29:22.313 --> 00:29:26.822
Because we really all should live in a community of 100 people,
00:29:27.382 --> 00:29:32.413
maybe 150 people. And I know everything about those people. They know everything about me.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:34.677
We raise our kids together. We...
00:29:35.373 --> 00:29:39.096
Go through our life cycle events together. We cry with each other.
00:29:39.096 --> 00:29:40.214
We laugh with each other.
00:29:40.498 --> 00:29:44.886
And you can't do that on the scale of 8 billion people in the world.
00:29:45.467 --> 00:29:49.206
But that's sort of where we are. That's sort of what's being asked of us.
00:29:49.206 --> 00:29:53.893
And so, of course, we don't know how to be safe with each other anymore because
00:29:54.143 --> 00:29:58.726
we're now exposed to so many people who are now, quote unquote,
00:29:58.726 --> 00:30:00.116
part of our communities.
00:30:00.557 --> 00:30:06.606
But we don't know those people. And as you mentioned, even in our community where I'm a rabbi,
00:30:07.273 --> 00:30:12.096
there are people who come up to me all the time who know things about me or
00:30:12.096 --> 00:30:16.527
the sermon I gave or this event that's happening. I've never seen them in my life.
00:30:17.125 --> 00:30:20.796
And that's just, as you said, in a community that's sort of fixed,
00:30:20.796 --> 00:30:23.696
that's fairly small in the scheme of things in the world.
00:30:24.056 --> 00:30:30.286
But already we aren't able to maintain the same kind of depth of relationships,
00:30:30.286 --> 00:30:34.436
even in that community, because as it's gotten bigger, there are only so many
00:30:34.436 --> 00:30:37.023
of us and so many people in the community.
00:30:37.452 --> 00:30:40.715
And even as you said with this morning, Minion, this Zoom community,
00:30:41.127 --> 00:30:43.926
there are the people you know day in and day out. Then there are the people
00:30:43.926 --> 00:30:48.099
whose mom died last week who just started coming and no one's seen them before.
00:30:48.424 --> 00:30:51.486
Or someone who comes once and never again. Are we accountable to them?
00:30:52.203 --> 00:30:56.655
Are we feel safe to be in community with them or in conversation with them.
00:30:57.015 --> 00:31:00.005
And there's a beauty in the expansiveness of that.
00:31:00.324 --> 00:31:05.531
And I also think that we lose something because we're pulled so many directions.
00:31:05.833 --> 00:31:10.696
And I think it's part of why we struggle on a global scale with everything that's
00:31:10.696 --> 00:31:13.530
happening in the world, because we can't actually,
00:31:14.040 --> 00:31:20.229
psychologically as or as human beings maintain the same kinds of empathy and
00:31:20.229 --> 00:31:25.795
connection and compassion for every single crisis and conflict and,
00:31:26.294 --> 00:31:30.148
problem in the world because we weren't built that way we were built to carry
00:31:30.421 --> 00:31:35.076
the emotional weight of the 150 people around us but not the 8 billion people in the world
00:31:35.500 --> 00:31:40.968
and so of course everyone is exhausted depleted depressed
00:31:41.334 --> 00:31:45.099
really struggling to engage in the world because everywhere you look,
00:31:45.099 --> 00:31:50.519
you're being attacked by all sorts of new information about this crisis or that crisis.
00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:53.749
And this is the most important thing. And this is the most important thing.
00:31:53.749 --> 00:31:54.923
And this is the most important thing.
00:31:55.225 --> 00:31:58.267
And you're just maybe trying to get through the day.
00:31:58.505 --> 00:32:02.199
You're just trying to get your kids to school and pick them up and feed them
00:32:02.199 --> 00:32:07.939
and get yourself to work and shower and maybe exercise and eat something.
00:32:07.939 --> 00:32:12.169
And you already or just trying to manage your own small life and maybe a few
00:32:12.169 --> 00:32:16.279
friends and family around you, and then also you're supposed to know every detail
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:20.459
of every crisis happening in the world, and that's supposed to be top of mind for you forever.
00:32:21.659 --> 00:32:26.039
Of course we aren't able to maintain that, and also I think it means we don't
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:29.468
have as much space for deep relationships in the way that we did before.
00:32:29.741 --> 00:32:33.909
It reminds me, what you're saying reminds me a lot of the way the Rambam,
00:32:33.909 --> 00:32:37.612
Maimonides, a 12th century scholar talks about how you give charity.
00:32:38.013 --> 00:32:43.369
You know, first you give to your closest inner circle. I don't remember if he
00:32:43.369 --> 00:32:48.015
says family or your geographic location, but it's your closest inner circle.
00:32:48.317 --> 00:32:51.869
And then, you know, if you have money left over, you go to the circle around
00:32:51.869 --> 00:32:54.209
that, and then the circle around that, and the circle around that,
00:32:54.209 --> 00:32:59.276
and, you know, so we go from eight billion to the hundred or hundred and twenty.
00:33:01.015 --> 00:33:06.212
And that's true of friendships, too. You know, like, we, Shari and I,
00:33:06.212 --> 00:33:09.744
and I know this is true of you as well, we're blessed with a lot of friends.
00:33:10.570 --> 00:33:14.002
You know, but then there are those who are our closest, closest friends.
00:33:14.002 --> 00:33:18.892
You know, the people with whom, without whom you would have trouble functioning.
00:33:18.892 --> 00:33:20.577
The people you rely on most.
00:33:21.198 --> 00:33:25.632
And that's true even though there's this other layer of people to whom you feel
00:33:25.632 --> 00:33:28.098
very close and who feel very close to you.
00:33:28.696 --> 00:33:32.789
Who will show up when you ask them to or whom you show up for.
00:33:33.590 --> 00:33:37.601
But there's only so much time. There's only so much emotional bandwidth.
00:33:38.008 --> 00:33:44.142
And the more under attack we feel outside, this is true for me.
00:33:44.502 --> 00:33:47.876
I'm one of those introvert extroverts.
00:33:48.311 --> 00:33:52.672
The more under attack I feel outside, the more I have to huddle and just be
00:33:52.672 --> 00:33:56.842
in my safe space, which is this room, or anywhere else in the house,
00:33:56.842 --> 00:33:58.161
but particularly this room.
00:33:58.881 --> 00:34:03.902
But I also, b'chavana, with intention, have to push myself to,
00:34:04.245 --> 00:34:09.242
you know, Rabbi Browse, Sharon, talks about just showing up.
00:34:09.662 --> 00:34:16.679
You know, since reading her book, Shari and I have been trying as much as we can to just show up.
00:34:17.522 --> 00:34:25.123
It's such a simple but powerful concept. And the way she talks about it is very
00:34:25.123 --> 00:34:27.076
moving, very inspiring.
00:34:27.824 --> 00:34:34.573
You know, we were at a shiva with her the other night, and there were 100 people,
00:34:35.473 --> 00:34:37.728
you know, just showing up for this family.
00:34:39.633 --> 00:34:47.423
They're our neighbors. I don't know the mom who passed, but what a legacy, what a life, you know?
00:34:47.423 --> 00:34:54.417
And had I not shown up, I neither would have felt like I did right by my neighbor,
00:34:54.858 --> 00:34:57.708
nor would I have heard about this incredible life.
00:34:58.103 --> 00:35:02.883
So just showing up isn't only about the other person. There's a benefit to you,
00:35:02.883 --> 00:35:05.023
too. And that's sometimes hard to remember.
00:35:06.524 --> 00:35:09.896
So I want to actually talk about the friend thing for a minute,
00:35:10.007 --> 00:35:13.673
if you're okay with this. You're in a unique position.
00:35:15.073 --> 00:35:18.983
I get slices of it as a songwriter. Like when I'm performing,
00:35:18.983 --> 00:35:24.030
when I offer my songs to people, people feel like they know me.
00:35:24.518 --> 00:35:31.233
But as a rabbi, there are, I don't know, 2,500 members at IKAR?
00:35:31.233 --> 00:35:35.663
Probably, yeah. 1,200 families, but a family unit could be all sorts of things.
00:35:35.663 --> 00:35:41.463
So 3,000 people that you have some akhariah, some responsibility towards.
00:35:41.857 --> 00:35:46.174
And I'll bet you dollars to donut that everyone thinks you're their friend.
00:35:48.813 --> 00:35:54.221
How do you manage that? Because you have to do it in a way that the congregants
00:35:54.616 --> 00:35:56.653
feel respected and connected,
00:35:57.233 --> 00:36:01.703
while still also protecting yourself by not revealing information that you don't
00:36:01.703 --> 00:36:07.677
want to, by not sharing stuff that crosses a line in some way.
00:36:08.761 --> 00:36:11.326
So how do you manage that? It's a great question.
00:36:13.387 --> 00:36:17.879
Some days are easier than others. I think I'm a pretty private person.
00:36:18.220 --> 00:36:22.088
And so it's a strange life for me in some ways. And it's...
00:36:23.112 --> 00:36:26.758
I joke, but it's not really a joke. It's true. Before this year,
00:36:27.297 --> 00:36:31.988
I was only searchable on Google if you went to the fourth page of Google.
00:36:32.290 --> 00:36:34.369
I was nowhere to be found on Google.
00:36:35.266 --> 00:36:40.068
I had almost no internet history. I was just a specter in some ways.
00:36:40.464 --> 00:36:46.228
And now everything I've ever said in the last nine months is on the internet.
00:36:46.936 --> 00:36:51.336
Every sermon I've given, all of our Shabbat services are still on YouTube,
00:36:51.336 --> 00:36:54.866
everything I've said in a Shabbat service, every mistake I've made,
00:36:55.406 --> 00:37:00.694
everything I've said wrong, all of it is for posterity forever on the internet.
00:37:01.382 --> 00:37:04.506
And that's a very strange feeling, probably a strange feeling for anyone,
00:37:04.506 --> 00:37:08.429
but I think especially the contrast of the life I had before with this one.
00:37:09.021 --> 00:37:17.176
And so I think if anything, my struggle in some ways is sharing more as opposed
00:37:17.176 --> 00:37:21.346
to holding myself back from sharing, because I think my comfortable place is
00:37:21.346 --> 00:37:23.276
not sharing about myself.
00:37:23.276 --> 00:37:26.116
And I'll just give a couple examples.
00:37:26.534 --> 00:37:29.291
I was writing a sermon for Rosh Hashanah, and.
00:37:30.195 --> 00:37:34.619
I felt like I was in pretty good shape, and I brought it to Rabbi Browse,
00:37:35.499 --> 00:37:40.005
and I read it to her, and at the end she said, where are you in the sermon?
00:37:40.481 --> 00:37:45.159
And I said, well, it's not really about me, because I knew that there were two
00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:48.499
other sermons that were being given that were very personal to the rabbis who
00:37:48.499 --> 00:37:52.428
were giving them, and so I had purposely constructed this sermon that wasn't about me.
00:37:53.537 --> 00:37:57.079
And she said, I understand it's not about you. It's not all about you,
00:37:57.079 --> 00:37:58.959
but you need to bring yourself into it.
00:37:58.959 --> 00:38:02.429
It doesn't need to be pages about you, but say something personal.
00:38:02.429 --> 00:38:06.329
It doesn't need to be divulging secret information or things that you don't
00:38:06.329 --> 00:38:10.168
want shared, but you need to connect with people. And right now,
00:38:10.586 --> 00:38:11.892
there's no way in for people.
00:38:12.535 --> 00:38:15.679
And I was so frustrated because,
00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:20.099
I felt like oh no now I have to go back to the beginning and try to figure out
00:38:20.331 --> 00:38:24.939
how do I weave myself into this in a way that doesn't feel too like too much
00:38:24.939 --> 00:38:28.603
disclosure and also makes people allows people to connect with me
00:38:28.946 --> 00:38:33.805
and I think I was able to do that in the end but I had to be pushed to do that and so I think I'm.
00:38:35.213 --> 00:38:38.260
I almost err, I think, on the side of not sharing much of myself.
00:38:38.538 --> 00:38:42.759
And part of my work also in our community is I work with people in their 20s and 30s.
00:38:43.200 --> 00:38:47.533
And that's especially tricky because I am in that age group.
00:38:47.533 --> 00:38:53.323
And so I have worked very hard to create boundaries for myself around what does
00:38:53.323 --> 00:38:55.460
that look like? How do I show up in those spaces?
00:38:55.802 --> 00:38:59.613
What do I wear in those spaces? which I think as a woman is something I think
00:38:59.613 --> 00:39:02.931
about a lot in my professional life, but especially in that context.
00:39:03.673 --> 00:39:10.763
I only introduce myself as Rabbi Jensen in all of those work contexts.
00:39:10.763 --> 00:39:17.003
I think a lot of people knew me before I was a rabbi and feel like they are
00:39:17.003 --> 00:39:20.499
more comfortable and casual with me than I think I feel with them.
00:39:20.853 --> 00:39:24.343
And so that boundary has been really important for me. And I think people in
00:39:24.343 --> 00:39:29.693
the community have been really good on the whole about helping me step into
00:39:29.693 --> 00:39:35.092
that identity and helping me separate what is a workspace versus what is a personal space.
00:39:35.401 --> 00:39:39.773
And that helps me a lot, actually, because no one in my personal life calls me Rabbi Jensen.
00:39:40.433 --> 00:39:42.506
My friends do it as a joke because they know that.
00:39:43.372 --> 00:39:48.400
But at work, it's really important for me to differentiate those spaces.
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:52.405
And so that helps me, I think, stay in the space that I'm in.
00:39:53.038 --> 00:39:56.320
And then the other example I'll give is actually from this Shabbat,
00:39:56.320 --> 00:40:01.165
I gave a sermon and I spoke a little bit about my childhood,
00:40:01.407 --> 00:40:03.380
but in a very distant way.
00:40:03.380 --> 00:40:07.780
I was really talking about living in a place with seasons and the rituals that
00:40:07.780 --> 00:40:11.704
were created in my family. And I mostly was talking about my mom and these rituals.
00:40:11.936 --> 00:40:16.087
And someone came up to me after the sermon and said, really beautiful sermon.
00:40:16.284 --> 00:40:20.673
I loved that you brought it back to yourself. It was so great that you shared about yourself.
00:40:21.092 --> 00:40:26.470
And so it was this strange moment where I felt like, did I share about myself?
00:40:26.470 --> 00:40:28.916
I don't really feel like I shared anything about myself.
00:40:29.277 --> 00:40:34.332
I don't feel like you and I now have some connection we didn't have an hour ago.
00:40:34.728 --> 00:40:45.310
I feel like I gave a sermon and I told a very vague and simple story from being a child.
00:40:45.310 --> 00:40:50.077
So some of it also is figuring out what's enough to give people,
00:40:50.553 --> 00:40:55.430
that's not dishonest, but that feels like some kind of connection point,
00:40:55.430 --> 00:40:59.560
some kind of humanity that also protects myself, protects my family,
00:40:59.560 --> 00:41:04.734
protects the people close to me, that I'm not divulging things that are not mine to share.
00:41:05.338 --> 00:41:11.050
And I think on such a big stage, I'm very aware of protecting myself and the people in my life.
00:41:11.625 --> 00:41:16.978
And also trying to do that in an authentic way is a little bit tricky.
00:41:17.233 --> 00:41:18.400
Can you say more about that?
00:41:19.169 --> 00:41:25.839
Yeah, well, I guess I just never want to feel like I am performing in some kind of false way.
00:41:26.290 --> 00:41:30.531
I never want to feel like I'm putting something on, but I also...
00:41:31.373 --> 00:41:35.671
I do think I'm a different self in some ways at work than I am even in this
00:41:35.671 --> 00:41:39.221
room or when I'm at home. And it's not a huge difference.
00:41:39.641 --> 00:41:42.559
I really try hard to just be who I am when I'm at work.
00:41:42.977 --> 00:41:45.951
But I think the things that I'm sharing and the ways that I'm sharing them are
00:41:45.951 --> 00:41:47.141
going to be different at work.
00:41:47.141 --> 00:41:53.281
And also, I want to make sure that I am me, that someone who meets me on a Shabbat
00:41:53.281 --> 00:41:59.811
morning is not going to be shocked to meet me on a Tuesday afternoon at the grocery store.
00:41:59.968 --> 00:42:05.161
I am the same person, but I think just trying to set boundaries that are clear
00:42:05.161 --> 00:42:09.791
enough for me, emotionally, mentally, psychologically, to know how I'm showing
00:42:09.791 --> 00:42:14.075
up in that space that may be a little bit different than how I would show up outside of it.
00:42:14.493 --> 00:42:22.021
But also, as we know, I think being a pulpit rabbi is really a life more than it's a job.
00:42:22.566 --> 00:42:28.611
And that's also a strange phenomenon in some ways. And I was taking a walk a
00:42:28.611 --> 00:42:31.330
couple months ago. It was probably eight in the morning.
00:42:31.748 --> 00:42:36.160
And I wasn't really, I was wearing workout clothes. I was just taking a walk
00:42:36.468 --> 00:42:37.930
and I hear someone yelling at me.
00:42:38.366 --> 00:42:42.571
And I take my headphones off because I'm trying to figure out why someone's
00:42:42.571 --> 00:42:43.904
yelling at me at eight in the morning.
00:42:44.374 --> 00:42:48.176
And he says, hey, I think you're my rabbi.
00:42:50.095 --> 00:42:54.952
And I was very taken aback, as you can imagine.
00:42:55.370 --> 00:42:59.723
And then he said, well, one of my rabbis. I said, okay.
00:43:00.250 --> 00:43:04.952
And then we walked a couple blocks together and then he turned off to go home.
00:43:05.417 --> 00:43:10.995
But that happens a lot in my life now in a way that is very different from the
00:43:10.995 --> 00:43:15.595
private life that I had before and the kind of the way the control I had,
00:43:15.595 --> 00:43:17.355
I think, over my small life.
00:43:17.355 --> 00:43:22.545
And now that's that's a little bit not not it's a little bit outside of my control now.
00:43:22.545 --> 00:43:27.475
And I have made my peace with that. And so I control the things that I can control,
00:43:27.475 --> 00:43:30.525
which are the boundaries that I set, what I do and don't share,
00:43:30.525 --> 00:43:32.886
the ways that I engage with community members.
00:43:33.193 --> 00:43:36.845
And then if someone's going to yell at me at 8am when I'm taking a walk that's
00:43:36.845 --> 00:43:40.495
just what's going to happen but I'm not going to stop taking a walk at 8am because.
00:43:41.455 --> 00:43:43.956
I'm still going to create a space for my life even if,
00:43:44.553 --> 00:43:49.760
it sometimes leads to unexpected encounters. A little bit reminds me of celebrity
00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:51.193
sightings at restaurants.
00:43:51.506 --> 00:43:58.250
You know, as an entertainment lawyer, I'm very sensitive to the celebrity perspective.
00:43:58.250 --> 00:44:01.530
Right. Because my clients will talk to me about what that's like.
00:44:01.530 --> 00:44:06.217
And by and large, they're generally very respectful, very open.
00:44:06.565 --> 00:44:12.200
But, like, there are limitations. How, when, where, where they just,
00:44:12.200 --> 00:44:15.450
you know, if it's a private birthday, on the one hand, the argument is,
00:44:15.450 --> 00:44:19.418
okay, a celebrity, including yourself, should know, you know,
00:44:20.080 --> 00:44:21.280
you're in the public space.
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:25.821
So when people see you, you're going to be usually in a friendly way accosted.
00:44:27.160 --> 00:44:32.102
But on the other hand, like you're entitled to your privacy and there's a balance there.
00:44:32.473 --> 00:44:37.891
So like when I see celebrities, I generally like, I note it.
00:44:38.315 --> 00:44:42.370
If they make eye contact, then I will eye contact them, too.
00:44:42.370 --> 00:44:48.543
But I won't go into their space unless it's a musician I happen to love. Then I will, you know.
00:44:49.092 --> 00:44:53.720
Make an exception. Yeah. And then I'll like geek out and be my usual.
00:44:53.720 --> 00:44:59.778
Like when I sat at a bar with Adrian Ballou once, I totally geeked out with him. It was great.
00:45:00.620 --> 00:45:03.750
I didn't really geek out when I ran into Andy Summers in our office.
00:45:03.750 --> 00:45:05.000
I just said, hello, I'm a fan.
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:08.800
But that was choreographed by his lawyer.
00:45:09.140 --> 00:45:14.240
Like, Andy Summers is going to be in the lobby at 10 o'clock on Tuesday morning.
00:45:14.888 --> 00:45:20.394
And she knew I was a big fan. Yeah, it's definitely a very small version of that life.
00:45:20.544 --> 00:45:26.990
And our friend Rabbi David Kasher at some point said that being a pulpit rabbi
00:45:26.990 --> 00:45:29.304
is being very famous in one small room.
00:45:30.070 --> 00:45:35.177
And I think that that's kind of how it is. You know, I think anywhere else in
00:45:35.177 --> 00:45:38.552
the world, I'm anywhere else in L.A., I'm just a person.
00:45:38.772 --> 00:45:45.377
So I think I feel very grateful that my I still have a private life and I don't
00:45:45.377 --> 00:45:50.578
feel like there are interruptions in that in my day to day life in the ways that.
00:45:51.211 --> 00:45:55.367
Well, as your career develops, that will be less and less true.
00:45:55.767 --> 00:46:02.677
I mean, even David, you know, between his podcast and his book and now working
00:46:02.677 --> 00:46:05.467
for Hadar, he's in multiple rooms.
00:46:05.807 --> 00:46:08.440
People know him from lots of different walks of life.
00:46:08.818 --> 00:46:13.967
And certainly that's true of Sharon, even though she has one pulpit,
00:46:14.518 --> 00:46:19.707
but between her book and, you know, the Time Magazine Rabbi of the Year and
00:46:19.707 --> 00:46:25.484
being at the White House multiple times, like she's now on some level everybody's rabbi.
00:46:25.774 --> 00:46:31.487
And as I, you may not want it, but I'm confident that as you continue to develop
00:46:31.487 --> 00:46:35.127
in your career, you're going to go beyond this particular room,
00:46:35.127 --> 00:46:37.327
even if you stay here for the rest of your life.
00:46:37.887 --> 00:46:40.487
You know, like some people have that thing. Some people don't.
00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:44.186
So is there anything else you're curious about or want to talk about?
00:46:44.366 --> 00:46:49.347
But there is something else from the song that I wanted to just touch on that
00:46:49.347 --> 00:46:54.437
I didn't have a chance to say before, which we kind of talked about a little bit, I guess.
00:46:54.437 --> 00:46:59.247
But just in those first couple lines of the song, we talked earlier about kind
00:46:59.247 --> 00:47:04.087
of this childlike self and talking about teenage blunders.
00:47:04.405 --> 00:47:09.415
But I think one of the things that really struck me about that is that I think,
00:47:10.008 --> 00:47:11.662
that's how we all feel forever.
00:47:12.287 --> 00:47:17.592
And I think we have this idea that maybe we get to a point in our lives where we feel like.
00:47:18.385 --> 00:47:22.702
Done. You know, I fixed all the things I needed to fix. I went to therapy.
00:47:23.242 --> 00:47:28.114
I worked through all my childhood things. I'm not triggered by anything anymore. I have no traumas.
00:47:28.364 --> 00:47:33.242
I'm engaging with my partner, my children, my friends with no issues.
00:47:33.242 --> 00:47:35.463
Everything's resolved. I'm doing great.
00:47:35.916 --> 00:47:39.991
And that time never comes. And it doesn't matter if you talk to a 15-year-old
00:47:40.282 --> 00:47:46.442
or a 95-year-old, everyone is still in this evolving space and everyone still
00:47:46.442 --> 00:47:49.255
feels like they're making teenage mistakes.
00:47:49.570 --> 00:47:53.552
Everyone still feels like they can't quite figure it out. And I think it's one
00:47:53.552 --> 00:47:55.562
of the great equalizers of all of us.
00:47:55.562 --> 00:48:02.342
And also, I think it takes a lot of work to release the expectation or this
00:48:02.342 --> 00:48:04.584
dream that one day you're going to arrive.
00:48:05.246 --> 00:48:10.762
But that instead you have to settle into this acceptance of I'm always going to have things.
00:48:10.762 --> 00:48:15.342
And the things I'm struggling with today are hopefully different from the things
00:48:15.342 --> 00:48:18.152
I struggled with five years ago and are hopefully different from the things
00:48:18.152 --> 00:48:20.402
I'm going to struggle with in five more years.
00:48:20.402 --> 00:48:23.852
Hopefully we're resolving some things along the way, but as long as you're in
00:48:23.852 --> 00:48:27.781
the world, things continue to be unresolved and then you resolve them.
00:48:28.140 --> 00:48:34.422
And that I think so much of our life is accepting the fact that we're always
00:48:34.422 --> 00:48:37.446
going to feel like a teenager who can't quite figure it out.
00:48:37.910 --> 00:48:43.262
And that our goal and our hope is to be in really meaningful relationships with
00:48:43.262 --> 00:48:48.120
people who allow us to fall short in those ways and give us the grace and the space to then.
00:48:48.782 --> 00:48:53.021
Come back from that and repair them and move forward and that we can do the same for them.
00:48:53.444 --> 00:48:58.091
And I think that's really what the song and the psalm are saying to me,
00:48:58.091 --> 00:49:01.441
at least, which is this relationship is going to continue.
00:49:01.441 --> 00:49:06.261
And how do we continue to create space for each other to both fall short and
00:49:06.261 --> 00:49:08.595
be our best selves and everything in between?
00:49:08.938 --> 00:49:12.681
And that none of that is ever going to come to an end and none of that is ever
00:49:12.681 --> 00:49:17.830
going to be fully accomplished or resolved, but that our work is to stay in that gray.
00:49:18.501 --> 00:49:22.821
Wow, that is beautiful. I almost don't want to say anything else because it's so beautiful.
00:49:23.801 --> 00:49:28.141
But I have to, I have to, because I'm still in the spirit of Adar,
00:49:28.141 --> 00:49:31.123
the last Jewish month, v'nahafochu.
00:49:31.534 --> 00:49:34.421
What rhymes with blunder? Wonder.
00:49:35.581 --> 00:49:38.041
So I think that those two things go together.
00:49:39.681 --> 00:49:45.881
May we always recognize that the teenage blunder is always going to be part of us.
00:49:46.586 --> 00:49:48.741
Accept that. Learn from it.
00:49:50.081 --> 00:49:53.511
Recognize that when we're about to make one that we don't want to make,
00:49:54.034 --> 00:49:56.541
but also allow ourselves to make them.
00:49:57.081 --> 00:50:01.761
But in the same breath, teenage wonder, I mean, the first sunset you experience
00:50:01.761 --> 00:50:05.041
in romance, I think sunset's even in the song, right?
00:50:06.201 --> 00:50:10.861
Or sunrise, I don't remember. First time I woke up on a beach in Tel Aviv having
00:50:10.861 --> 00:50:11.881
slept there for the night.
00:50:12.741 --> 00:50:20.403
I mean, that's just, I still feel the magic of that moment. So may we also know Teenage Wonder. Amen.
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:25.233
Thank you. This was great. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.
00:50:26.290 --> 00:50:29.707
Thanks so much for listening. Special thanks to Rabbi Jensen for joining me,
00:50:29.707 --> 00:50:33.037
to Devin Schwartz for his help in producing this episode, to E.
00:50:33.037 --> 00:50:37.177
Rose for his help producing the song in this episode, to Jessica Khanna-Sweedler
00:50:37.177 --> 00:50:41.732
for her help on social media, to Liat Silveira for designing the podcast logo.
00:50:42.016 --> 00:50:45.467
Please check out the incredible art on Liat's website at liat,
00:50:45.467 --> 00:50:49.394
L-E-A-T, Silveira, S-I-L-V-E-R-A, dot com.
00:50:49.609 --> 00:50:54.665
And to my wife, Shari, who challenges me in the best way and keeps me grounded daily.
00:50:54.909 --> 00:50:58.817
You can find Worth to Cantin and all the other songs in this song cycle on most
00:50:58.817 --> 00:51:03.233
platforms that stream or download music, including Spotify, Apple, and YouTube.
00:51:03.617 --> 00:51:06.737
It really helps if you review these episodes and share, like,
00:51:06.737 --> 00:51:11.500
comment, and subscribe to the podcast and to me as an artist on your favorite platforms.
00:51:11.912 --> 00:51:15.507
In the next episode of The Rest is Commentary, I will be talking with my dear
00:51:15.507 --> 00:51:21.997
friend, mentor, teacher, Rabbi and Chavrusa, Rabbi Yaffa Epstein of the Jewish
00:51:21.997 --> 00:51:23.735
Education Project in New York.
00:51:24.177 --> 00:51:28.670
We discuss spiritual life holding both inner darkness and outer light,
00:51:29.059 --> 00:51:33.227
prayer as a deeper search for meaning, not just a routine, prayer working
00:51:33.627 --> 00:51:38.097
best when structure and spontaneity support each other, the moments before prayer
00:51:38.097 --> 00:51:43.548
as a part of prayer, real growth meaning facing pain and doubt honestly,
00:51:43.861 --> 00:51:47.987
and so much more, all inspired by Jaffa's thoughts after listening to
00:51:48.427 --> 00:51:50.636
Morning Prayer. Please join us.