Mark: Right, so I suppose we're coming into that time of year where the frequencies, frequencies? The frequency of games is increasing while sessions are potentially increasing on the pitch or staying the same and as a result of that the recovery window between games, between sessions is quite small. For example, you could be training on a Friday evening with your club and you might be out on a Sunday morning playing some sort of a challenge game or friendly league competition or something like that. So it's not to say that performance is the main goal right now, both in the same token, you know, as an athlete, you're going to want to try your best to be optimally recovered or as recovered as you can be going into that game, you know, on the Sunday, which is probably going to be less than 48 hours ⁓ after your previous session so it is a bit of a tricky time in one sense because you know while the goal is in performance is it still adaptation, it still trying to get stronger, fitter, faster etc. probably but you're still trying to be in somewhat of a solid position or somewhat near baseline going into your game so with that comes tools strategies that we might lean into this time of year and I suppose in today's episode we want to do a little bit of a deep dive, a bit of a bite-sized session on all things cold water because it is something that you know we get asked a lot of questions around for ourselves personally it's something we've kind of dipped in and out of excuse the pun but it is it is yeah it is it is the sort of thing that
Paddy: Nice. Had to be done.
Mark: It kind of get, you know, suppose painted with the same brush as a kind of a one size fits all in terms of, you you getting into the sea versus a cold shower versus an ice bath in the changing room. It's not, suppose, all the same. And I suppose as we kind of get into there are different strategies around the dose, the temperature, the duration, et cetera. ⁓ So. hopefully with this session we can kind of go you know deep and narrow with the what the why and the how and then give you some key takeaways to go away with from from today's session so in terms of starting off in terms of the the relevance of it is there something you use yourself as some of the the elite of our game is there something that's is prevalent you know amongst
Paddy: you
Mark: inter-county athletes or is it going to depend on the athlete?
Paddy: Yeah, it is fairly prevalent. Yeah, I feel like a lot of players would utilize it. I personally use it infrequently, suppose. Like I use it when I feel I need it most. It's not one of my absolute go-to tools that I would utilize personally. But anytime I do use it, yeah, like I feel... some positive effects of it. ⁓ But also, you know, if I don't have it on a given week, I don't feel, you know, that there's this wide hole in my recovery strategy, you know. So ⁓ I think definitely for some it's a staple and I can see why. ⁓ I suppose like, you know, for it to talk around what cold water actually does. ⁓ It definitely works on a biological level, like, you know, around reducing our muscle damage biomarkers, improving our ⁓ biological recovery markers, but also on a cognitive level as well. And on a psychological level, I think that's, you know, a really important aspect to it because it ⁓ is often referred to in the research as reducing our perceived muscle soreness. So like anyone who has and he bouts in cold water, usually getting out of that cold water and for the hours prior to or the hours after it, you will often say, I feel a lot better and I feel a lot less sore. So definitely, think, you know, it does have positive effects there on a biological level and also a psychological level. So I can see why a lot of players would ⁓ utilize it and are quite big fans of it.
Mark: Like I think it's important to Identify from a recovery point of view like where is this actually having the impact, you know, is it Psychological is it physiological? So in terms of your human biology water, what is the response there? And what's the research saying there and does it actually have an impact on your performance like these are the things that you know, I would be looking for when I would be going through the research is okay, what is the actual outcome here and how does it actually impact performance because Sometimes, different strategies, different tools can maybe change your psychological state, can maybe change or support physiological recovery, but does that actually translate to improvements in performance? And when it comes to cold water, it does depend. think context is quite important. ⁓ In the research that I've looked at within team sport athletes, was one in elite Spanish basketball players. and they used a cold water strategy kind of in an acute recovery period, so within 24 hours. And from a performance point of view, there was improvements in terms of like a shuttle run, like a four by 10 meter. So it's interesting to see that there are translations from the performance point of view. So while we can feel maybe them benefits, like you said, getting out ⁓ and while you might not see the physiological changes, you know, you might notice that your blood flow is a little bit restricted post, a little bit better afterwards, et cetera. ⁓ it can have potential benefits on performance post-using in an acute recovery window when let's say there's repeat abouts of training or exercise in a condensed window. So you touched on there that you use it kind of at different periods or not the whole time, but sometimes. Is there any kind of times a year you find yourself leaning into it more? it after a particular game, sessions, or what's the kind of the approach with cold water.
Paddy: Yeah, typically I'll use it a little bit more in season. Definitely. When games are coming thick and fast, particularly on, say, if you have two games in six days, let's say, or let's say you're out on a Sunday, you're out again on a Saturday, like if it's shorter turnarounds or you're just playing week on week and you find that, you know, you're fairly banged up from the games. I'll employ it fairly frequently there. where I use it less is probably in the pre-season. And maybe you can kind of touch on why we would utilize that or why we would do that. But definitely in the tick of the end season, I would definitely utilize it a lot more.
Mark: Hmm. Yeah. And I think like that's important to control to draw on that. Like it's not a it's not necessarily something you want to use all year round from a recovery point of view. Like you, you know, you might have a cold shower from a psychological point of view in the morning to wake you up or whatever it is. But in terms of recovery, like I think the time of year is, quite important. Like what is, what is the goal, you know, is the goal in the preseason like you touched on, is it adaptation and you know, terms of driving adaptation, cold, cold water potentially blunts the response to strength training, to hypertrophy training potentially. So therefore would a cold, cold water be better or more appropriate at other times of year? Probably, and that's where coming into the in season, where we're at now, it's why it's maybe a bit more, a bit more prevalent, a bit more on the tips of people's tongue. In terms of like the vehicle, ⁓ and I suppose this is where, know, a little bit of kind of variance comes. What I maybe thought previously was that, you know, cold water immersion would be completely submerging, you know, the entire body, like your whole body up until your neck or up until your chin with, with cold water. But I suppose the more research I did, you know, the more you realize that you probably get the most amount of benefit by submerging. them kind of major working muscles. So if you're after doing heavy kind of lower body on pitch session like in your glutes, hamstrings, calves, et cetera, or fairly fatigued, you know, probably going up to your neck, your chin, isn't any more beneficial than going up to your, your hips, your waist. And I think the level of discomfort increases the further up the water goes. So you're, if you're trying to optimize for five to ten minutes in the ice bath and you find you can do that easily up until your hips and that's where the main bulk of your working muscles have been. Well then probably optimizing for that is going to be quite important. We can probably go into the various different protocols that we could use ⁓ in terms of cold water immersion in terms of recovery. Typically what you'll see from the research is somewhere between 10 to 15
Paddy: you
Mark: degrees for 5 to 15 minutes and that's kind of setting a bit of a range for you to fall somewhere within. It's not saying, you know, that you need to be at a certain, you need to max out and do 15 minutes the whole time or you need to, you know, make sure that it's, it's 10 degrees, but it's just seeing that as a bit of a range to fall within. Like you'd even see kind of some alternating strategies where it'd be like two minutes on, two minutes off for the 15 minute period. But over the course of that time, like you're still getting you know the guts of that kind of range in cold water. ⁓ The vehicle that you decide to go for, again it's kind of one of these things that the more control you have over it, potentially the more impact it can have. If you're getting into something like an ice bath, maybe it's controlled so you can choose a temperature or you have a thermometer with your little rubber ducky and you can decide what temperature you want it to be at or you know yourself. Okay, if it's a little bit warmer, I'm gonna spend a wee bit longer in it. It can be a little bit more controllable. Whereas if you're getting into the sea or the lake, you might have a rough idea of where the water temperature might be. And then you can kind of scale the time spent in there up or down, depending on that. But typically, I suppose some of the mistakes that you might see is that if it is too cold, you won't meet the sufficient duration of that kind of 10 to 15 minutes. And if it is too warm, you might be spending too long in it. And again, there's no additional benefits to that. So that'd be a bit of a range that I would forward in and the vehicle that you choose to achieve those timeframes and those temperatures is kind of up to you and whatever is available to you.
Paddy: I think the note that you mentioned around only having to submerge up to the hips after that pitch session is nice to hear. because I think there's almost a bit of a cult that goes with it that you have to get the full way in. But the fact that there's no maybe additional benefits to that is really handy to know. Like in terms of the in-season and whatnot. Like how often would you kind of, I suppose, recommend utilizing it or like say in your own ⁓ experience, how often would you utilize it? know you're obviously more on the West Coast, so you maybe have more access to the sea as well. But how often would you utilize it or how often would you kind of recommend maybe utilizing it per week?
Mark: Again, it depends it depends on you know the goals of the session it depends on how condensed that week is and I suppose it depends on how well you've everything else boxed off in terms of recovery if You know, you're not Rehydrating refueling repairing effectively post session How much of an additional benefit will you know throwing in a nice bath or getting out of the sea? How effective will that be? Probably not as much as it would be if you'd ever now kind of boxed off. In terms of, I suppose, frequency, like I would probably optimize using it mainly during kind of the intense competitive periods where you might be training or competing multiple times within a seven day window. In that seven day window, you might be training or playing every two, three days. So less than that kind of 72 hour period, which typically... you know, GAA players will be getting back up the baseline in. So that is supposed to frequency across the week. You know, it kind of depends on how many games, how many sessions, how close them games and sessions are. And in terms of timing, I would probably go within 30 minutes post session if you can, because, you know, if you train on a Thursday evening and you don't get out to the sea until the Friday evening. versus if you get into the water straight away post-session, you're probably gonna see them potentially benefits much more the sooner you get in kind of post-session. In saying that, one of the kind of key considerations I've written down here is that, you know, if cold water immersion is coming at the expense of you missing a meal or you delaying your rehydration strategies because you're stood in the ice bath, know, freezing yourself off and rehydration smoothie or shake, is over the far side of the room or you haven't made it and it's at home and you're kind of pushing that out, I would see that as suboptimal then. So understanding that, okay, how can we slot cold water immersion in as a part of a recovery strategy, not making it our recovery strategy. So not getting into the ice bath or getting into the sea and calling it recovery, you know, it's part of a recovery strategy, but not the only thing. It shouldn't be the sole focus. It should compliment your recovery strategy, not take from it. just making sure that we're taking all the other recovery boxes first and foremost. But in terms of the timing and the frequency, would look at within that 30 to 60 minutes post session, post performance, and across the week, using this, sorry, across the competitive or across the year, using it during intense training or competitive periods where the goal isn't necessarily adaptation.
Paddy: I think that that's where the nuance is important though, because a tool such as cold water immersion is, or can often be seen as quote unquote, the recovery. Whereas eating quality nutrition, getting some quality rest is things that we are like, you eat food every day, you sleep every day. It's almost seen taken for granted. And these newer kind of fancier tools can then touted as the recovery and that's gonna be the main thing. Whereas actually, as you referenced there, actually prioritizing them first and then supplementing the tools such as these in is probably the more ⁓ useful method. The last thing I probably wanted to touch on, ⁓ just because it's probably more, I don't know, maybe there was a couple of posts circulating on social media regarding ⁓ cold water immersion in the pre-season and I think it's fairly ⁓ or it's become more popular more players are aware of this information now. What's kind of your thoughts on it in terms of like utilizing cold water in these periods? I know while most players are kind of coming out of that phase now at this stage of the season like most players are kind of in the GAA calendar are coming into leagues and more games and whatnot but just I suppose What would your thoughts be on the pre-season and cold water emergence?
Mark: I would go back to what's the goal. If you're trying to optimize for rapid recovery between games, between sessions, then potentially using it. But if you're still in that period of trying to get bigger, faster, stronger, and there's potential there, it doesn't necessarily support adaptation. It could potentially blunt it. There's a potential risk there. I would probably delay that tool to maybe later in the year when the goal is solely on recovery. And it's not to say that getting into cold water actually improves your recovery, it probably just enhances the speed that you can get back up to baseline or that you repeat your performance or session a little bit better when it is in that recovery or in that reduced window. in terms of the period, of pre-season, I wouldn't see the additional benefit to it right now. Where it could really come into fruition is in the end season. I don't think, I think there's more to lose by introducing it too early in the year. ⁓ So that's kind of the side I'd go at.
Paddy: Yeah, and that's the usefulness of it. It can be a periodised tool and like all of these strategies or tools in terms of recovery, there is an element of periodisation to them. And if you're smart with it, you can use it to support your goals and support your actual goals of that stage of the season. which should overall be what you're trying to do. If you're trying to perform on the field and you have tight schedules, maybe utilizing it. And then if you're in this pre-season block where you're only chasing adaptation, whether it's in the gym, then maybe pulling it back a little bit more. So yeah, anything else on your end, Mr. Huberman?
Mark: I'm all bite sized out. I think that's everything from the cold water side of things. I think it's just important to kind of spend a little bit of time on something like this because as we touched on at the start, like it can be kind of a bit of a one size fits all that cold water is good all year round. Cold water is getting into a bucket of ice for as long as you can. And if you're not up to your neck, you know, you're soft. So I think being strategic with it, being smart with it means that you'll get more out of it and other aspects of your performance or other areas of your progress won't take it.
Paddy: Nice, well hopefully you enjoyed that bite size episode and we'll try to do a few more of these across the remainder of the year and let us know your feedback as always. We do appreciate it and we'll be back at the same time next week. Chat to you then.
Paddy: Nice. Had to be done.
Mark: It kind of get, you know, suppose painted with the same brush as a kind of a one size fits all in terms of, you you getting into the sea versus a cold shower versus an ice bath in the changing room. It's not, suppose, all the same. And I suppose as we kind of get into there are different strategies around the dose, the temperature, the duration, et cetera. ⁓ So. hopefully with this session we can kind of go you know deep and narrow with the what the why and the how and then give you some key takeaways to go away with from from today's session so in terms of starting off in terms of the the relevance of it is there something you use yourself as some of the the elite of our game is there something that's is prevalent you know amongst
Paddy: you
Mark: inter-county athletes or is it going to depend on the athlete?
Paddy: Yeah, it is fairly prevalent. Yeah, I feel like a lot of players would utilize it. I personally use it infrequently, suppose. Like I use it when I feel I need it most. It's not one of my absolute go-to tools that I would utilize personally. But anytime I do use it, yeah, like I feel... some positive effects of it. ⁓ But also, you know, if I don't have it on a given week, I don't feel, you know, that there's this wide hole in my recovery strategy, you know. So ⁓ I think definitely for some it's a staple and I can see why. ⁓ I suppose like, you know, for it to talk around what cold water actually does. ⁓ It definitely works on a biological level, like, you know, around reducing our muscle damage biomarkers, improving our ⁓ biological recovery markers, but also on a cognitive level as well. And on a psychological level, I think that's, you know, a really important aspect to it because it ⁓ is often referred to in the research as reducing our perceived muscle soreness. So like anyone who has and he bouts in cold water, usually getting out of that cold water and for the hours prior to or the hours after it, you will often say, I feel a lot better and I feel a lot less sore. So definitely, think, you know, it does have positive effects there on a biological level and also a psychological level. So I can see why a lot of players would ⁓ utilize it and are quite big fans of it.
Mark: Like I think it's important to Identify from a recovery point of view like where is this actually having the impact, you know, is it Psychological is it physiological? So in terms of your human biology water, what is the response there? And what's the research saying there and does it actually have an impact on your performance like these are the things that you know, I would be looking for when I would be going through the research is okay, what is the actual outcome here and how does it actually impact performance because Sometimes, different strategies, different tools can maybe change your psychological state, can maybe change or support physiological recovery, but does that actually translate to improvements in performance? And when it comes to cold water, it does depend. think context is quite important. ⁓ In the research that I've looked at within team sport athletes, was one in elite Spanish basketball players. and they used a cold water strategy kind of in an acute recovery period, so within 24 hours. And from a performance point of view, there was improvements in terms of like a shuttle run, like a four by 10 meter. So it's interesting to see that there are translations from the performance point of view. So while we can feel maybe them benefits, like you said, getting out ⁓ and while you might not see the physiological changes, you know, you might notice that your blood flow is a little bit restricted post, a little bit better afterwards, et cetera. ⁓ it can have potential benefits on performance post-using in an acute recovery window when let's say there's repeat abouts of training or exercise in a condensed window. So you touched on there that you use it kind of at different periods or not the whole time, but sometimes. Is there any kind of times a year you find yourself leaning into it more? it after a particular game, sessions, or what's the kind of the approach with cold water.
Paddy: Yeah, typically I'll use it a little bit more in season. Definitely. When games are coming thick and fast, particularly on, say, if you have two games in six days, let's say, or let's say you're out on a Sunday, you're out again on a Saturday, like if it's shorter turnarounds or you're just playing week on week and you find that, you know, you're fairly banged up from the games. I'll employ it fairly frequently there. where I use it less is probably in the pre-season. And maybe you can kind of touch on why we would utilize that or why we would do that. But definitely in the tick of the end season, I would definitely utilize it a lot more.
Mark: Hmm. Yeah. And I think like that's important to control to draw on that. Like it's not a it's not necessarily something you want to use all year round from a recovery point of view. Like you, you know, you might have a cold shower from a psychological point of view in the morning to wake you up or whatever it is. But in terms of recovery, like I think the time of year is, quite important. Like what is, what is the goal, you know, is the goal in the preseason like you touched on, is it adaptation and you know, terms of driving adaptation, cold, cold water potentially blunts the response to strength training, to hypertrophy training potentially. So therefore would a cold, cold water be better or more appropriate at other times of year? Probably, and that's where coming into the in season, where we're at now, it's why it's maybe a bit more, a bit more prevalent, a bit more on the tips of people's tongue. In terms of like the vehicle, ⁓ and I suppose this is where, know, a little bit of kind of variance comes. What I maybe thought previously was that, you know, cold water immersion would be completely submerging, you know, the entire body, like your whole body up until your neck or up until your chin with, with cold water. But I suppose the more research I did, you know, the more you realize that you probably get the most amount of benefit by submerging. them kind of major working muscles. So if you're after doing heavy kind of lower body on pitch session like in your glutes, hamstrings, calves, et cetera, or fairly fatigued, you know, probably going up to your neck, your chin, isn't any more beneficial than going up to your, your hips, your waist. And I think the level of discomfort increases the further up the water goes. So you're, if you're trying to optimize for five to ten minutes in the ice bath and you find you can do that easily up until your hips and that's where the main bulk of your working muscles have been. Well then probably optimizing for that is going to be quite important. We can probably go into the various different protocols that we could use ⁓ in terms of cold water immersion in terms of recovery. Typically what you'll see from the research is somewhere between 10 to 15
Paddy: you
Mark: degrees for 5 to 15 minutes and that's kind of setting a bit of a range for you to fall somewhere within. It's not saying, you know, that you need to be at a certain, you need to max out and do 15 minutes the whole time or you need to, you know, make sure that it's, it's 10 degrees, but it's just seeing that as a bit of a range to fall within. Like you'd even see kind of some alternating strategies where it'd be like two minutes on, two minutes off for the 15 minute period. But over the course of that time, like you're still getting you know the guts of that kind of range in cold water. ⁓ The vehicle that you decide to go for, again it's kind of one of these things that the more control you have over it, potentially the more impact it can have. If you're getting into something like an ice bath, maybe it's controlled so you can choose a temperature or you have a thermometer with your little rubber ducky and you can decide what temperature you want it to be at or you know yourself. Okay, if it's a little bit warmer, I'm gonna spend a wee bit longer in it. It can be a little bit more controllable. Whereas if you're getting into the sea or the lake, you might have a rough idea of where the water temperature might be. And then you can kind of scale the time spent in there up or down, depending on that. But typically, I suppose some of the mistakes that you might see is that if it is too cold, you won't meet the sufficient duration of that kind of 10 to 15 minutes. And if it is too warm, you might be spending too long in it. And again, there's no additional benefits to that. So that'd be a bit of a range that I would forward in and the vehicle that you choose to achieve those timeframes and those temperatures is kind of up to you and whatever is available to you.
Paddy: I think the note that you mentioned around only having to submerge up to the hips after that pitch session is nice to hear. because I think there's almost a bit of a cult that goes with it that you have to get the full way in. But the fact that there's no maybe additional benefits to that is really handy to know. Like in terms of the in-season and whatnot. Like how often would you kind of, I suppose, recommend utilizing it or like say in your own ⁓ experience, how often would you utilize it? know you're obviously more on the West Coast, so you maybe have more access to the sea as well. But how often would you utilize it or how often would you kind of recommend maybe utilizing it per week?
Mark: Again, it depends it depends on you know the goals of the session it depends on how condensed that week is and I suppose it depends on how well you've everything else boxed off in terms of recovery if You know, you're not Rehydrating refueling repairing effectively post session How much of an additional benefit will you know throwing in a nice bath or getting out of the sea? How effective will that be? Probably not as much as it would be if you'd ever now kind of boxed off. In terms of, I suppose, frequency, like I would probably optimize using it mainly during kind of the intense competitive periods where you might be training or competing multiple times within a seven day window. In that seven day window, you might be training or playing every two, three days. So less than that kind of 72 hour period, which typically... you know, GAA players will be getting back up the baseline in. So that is supposed to frequency across the week. You know, it kind of depends on how many games, how many sessions, how close them games and sessions are. And in terms of timing, I would probably go within 30 minutes post session if you can, because, you know, if you train on a Thursday evening and you don't get out to the sea until the Friday evening. versus if you get into the water straight away post-session, you're probably gonna see them potentially benefits much more the sooner you get in kind of post-session. In saying that, one of the kind of key considerations I've written down here is that, you know, if cold water immersion is coming at the expense of you missing a meal or you delaying your rehydration strategies because you're stood in the ice bath, know, freezing yourself off and rehydration smoothie or shake, is over the far side of the room or you haven't made it and it's at home and you're kind of pushing that out, I would see that as suboptimal then. So understanding that, okay, how can we slot cold water immersion in as a part of a recovery strategy, not making it our recovery strategy. So not getting into the ice bath or getting into the sea and calling it recovery, you know, it's part of a recovery strategy, but not the only thing. It shouldn't be the sole focus. It should compliment your recovery strategy, not take from it. just making sure that we're taking all the other recovery boxes first and foremost. But in terms of the timing and the frequency, would look at within that 30 to 60 minutes post session, post performance, and across the week, using this, sorry, across the competitive or across the year, using it during intense training or competitive periods where the goal isn't necessarily adaptation.
Paddy: I think that that's where the nuance is important though, because a tool such as cold water immersion is, or can often be seen as quote unquote, the recovery. Whereas eating quality nutrition, getting some quality rest is things that we are like, you eat food every day, you sleep every day. It's almost seen taken for granted. And these newer kind of fancier tools can then touted as the recovery and that's gonna be the main thing. Whereas actually, as you referenced there, actually prioritizing them first and then supplementing the tools such as these in is probably the more ⁓ useful method. The last thing I probably wanted to touch on, ⁓ just because it's probably more, I don't know, maybe there was a couple of posts circulating on social media regarding ⁓ cold water immersion in the pre-season and I think it's fairly ⁓ or it's become more popular more players are aware of this information now. What's kind of your thoughts on it in terms of like utilizing cold water in these periods? I know while most players are kind of coming out of that phase now at this stage of the season like most players are kind of in the GAA calendar are coming into leagues and more games and whatnot but just I suppose What would your thoughts be on the pre-season and cold water emergence?
Mark: I would go back to what's the goal. If you're trying to optimize for rapid recovery between games, between sessions, then potentially using it. But if you're still in that period of trying to get bigger, faster, stronger, and there's potential there, it doesn't necessarily support adaptation. It could potentially blunt it. There's a potential risk there. I would probably delay that tool to maybe later in the year when the goal is solely on recovery. And it's not to say that getting into cold water actually improves your recovery, it probably just enhances the speed that you can get back up to baseline or that you repeat your performance or session a little bit better when it is in that recovery or in that reduced window. in terms of the period, of pre-season, I wouldn't see the additional benefit to it right now. Where it could really come into fruition is in the end season. I don't think, I think there's more to lose by introducing it too early in the year. ⁓ So that's kind of the side I'd go at.
Paddy: Yeah, and that's the usefulness of it. It can be a periodised tool and like all of these strategies or tools in terms of recovery, there is an element of periodisation to them. And if you're smart with it, you can use it to support your goals and support your actual goals of that stage of the season. which should overall be what you're trying to do. If you're trying to perform on the field and you have tight schedules, maybe utilizing it. And then if you're in this pre-season block where you're only chasing adaptation, whether it's in the gym, then maybe pulling it back a little bit more. So yeah, anything else on your end, Mr. Huberman?
Mark: I'm all bite sized out. I think that's everything from the cold water side of things. I think it's just important to kind of spend a little bit of time on something like this because as we touched on at the start, like it can be kind of a bit of a one size fits all that cold water is good all year round. Cold water is getting into a bucket of ice for as long as you can. And if you're not up to your neck, you know, you're soft. So I think being strategic with it, being smart with it means that you'll get more out of it and other aspects of your performance or other areas of your progress won't take it.
Paddy: Nice, well hopefully you enjoyed that bite size episode and we'll try to do a few more of these across the remainder of the year and let us know your feedback as always. We do appreciate it and we'll be back at the same time next week. Chat to you then.
