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Welcome to the RedOpsLab, a podcast exploring the art and
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science of revenue operations.
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To find more episodes and resources on scaling your
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revenue engine, visit getweflow.
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com slash RedOps.
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Hello, and welcome to another edition of the RedOpsLab podcast.
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Our guest today is Justin Norris, senior director of marketing ops at 360 learning.
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Also, you may know him because he's the host of RevOps AFM.
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So hopefully you've heard already to his podcast and with
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us here is also Yanis today.
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So yeah, warm welcome to everyone.
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Great.
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Great to be here.
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Thanks for having me on guys.
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Great to have you.
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Yeah.
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Justin, could you introduce yourself?
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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So I've been in the marketing ops, marketing, RevOps world for about 15
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years now, kind of moved into marketing ops via the marketing automation world.
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So spent a lot of time in the Marketo community, worked in consulting
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there for a while, and then about three years ago, came back in house.
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So today I'm running marketing ops and BDR ops at a company called 360 learning.
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So kind of a RevOps scope.
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Sort of up to where the opportunity is created is how I like to think about it.
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And I also host a podcast, as you mentioned, RebOps FM, find it wherever
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you get your podcasts or at rebops.
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fm.
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And yeah, that's just a passion project.
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Something I like to do to learn, get to talk to a fun, smart people,
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just like what you folks are doing.
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Yeah.
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Excellent.
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Yeah.
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We're going to link to the podcast.
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Of course.
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We're not afraid of competition.
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The more the merrier.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And yeah.
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Could you briefly describe what 360 learning is, what
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you guys do, how you operate?
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Yeah.
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We're a corporate learning management software.
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So companies that want to train their employees, all sorts of different
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training, whether that's compliance training or their skills that certain
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employees have, and you want to bring those skills throughout the organization,
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increase the skills within your company.
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That's what 360 learning is for, and it's really oriented around collaborative
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learning, meaning like, you know, if you have 10 frontline workers, you have 10
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consultants in a particular role, and one of them is really great, uh, you're
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going to enable them to spread their knowledge to the other people to create
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a course, rather than kind of a top down approach, which is very often what we
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see, where you have sort of a learning and development person pushing out course
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material that may not always be relevant.
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So it really brings that collaboration into the mix.
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Okay.
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Great.
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Yeah.
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Sounds good.
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Today.
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We want to talk about, we want to talk about signals.
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We want to talk a bit about outbound, about outbound
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technology, how AI is changing that.
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And also I think like just in general, like how outbound has changed over the
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last couple of years, I think it's like a space where a lot of stuff is happening.
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AI, AI SDRs, I think is one of those.
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Like, you know, click bait, like statements that you
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see a lot going around.
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So now just curious, maybe you could explain just to get started.
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How do you do outbound at 360 learning at the moment?
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Just to get us started a bit there.
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Yeah, it's a good question.
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I mean, So we roll, roll back the clock, like, like, I think everything
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starts with this predictable revenue playbook that everyone's familiar
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with, you know, you get so many SDRs doing so many calls and so many emails,
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you're going to get so many meetings, so many pipelines, like, and that was
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the playbook for a decade or more.
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That's the playbook that VCs love because it feels like very
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predictable and plug and play.
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You're just going to stack up these Lego blocks and it's going to work.
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And my experience with outbound, you know, I supported teams on,
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on some more high touch ABM.
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Type programs during my consulting career, but really my experience begins, let's
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say three years ago, working hands on with BDRs, starting off more manually,
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but with a lot of different signals and just sort of trying to figure this out.
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And, you know, I've even seen during that time, the change of going from like.
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You know, X percent reply, like even like 5 percent reply rates
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and seeing that shrink down.
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So I think even in that short window of time for me, being able to see the
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impact of that model kind of breaking under the weight of too many people using
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it, people starting to tune it out, the market changing, whatever the underlying
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reasons are, just seeing that outbound model stop working or not working.
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With the level of efficiency that would be needed to really scale and justify it.
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So the question really goes like, where do you, where do
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you, where do you go from there?
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And I think that's a question, at least personally that I'm still
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learning about, still trying to answer my operating philosophy right now.
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If I had to sum it up is how can I give my teams flexibility?
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To try as many different things as possible, because we really are still
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learning all the time, like what works in today's market, so have a system where
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we can have some programs that are kind of like these work, or they work to an
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acceptable degree, so we're going to keep them on, and then let's try new things.
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And let's experiment.
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So that's principle number two is experimentation.
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So let's have like the biggest menu of options we can and then let's
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experiment and see what works.
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And I sort of view my role as a RevOps person in that process as being able
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to drive those two things and enable those two things for my peers in our
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business development team and on our demand gen team who I'm working with.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I think, sorry, I think the stats are quite staggering, right?
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If you look at, and I mean, it's always a question, you know, what data can
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you trust here and how many touch points do you need and you know, what
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exactly are the right benchmarks, but I'm curious within these last three
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years, I mean, like, Your conclusion of to focus on enablement of flexibility
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and being able to run experiments.
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You know, why, why is that focus?
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How, how did you come, come to that conclusion?
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I think just because I don't, I don't feel confident to say like, Oh, this
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is like what works, you know, whereas in the past, maybe like we bought
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six cents and started using their intense signals and maybe in the past.
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You know, you could just do that and say, all right, six cents
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says this company's in market.
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I'm going to call them and be like, Hey, like this is us.
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This is what we do.
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Buy something, you know, and a few emails and that could
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work to an acceptable degree.
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And I just don't think that works anymore.
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And that's not a knock just against six cents per se, but I don't think
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that those signals are silver bullets.
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So we want to try different things and Ultimately, if I observe my own
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like past buying experiences, which are the things that I like to do that
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they're not universal, but the things that are closest to me when I look at
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like, what did I buy through outbound?
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I bought Cognizant.
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Why?
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Because they called me.
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And I was thinking about, Oh, how do I get more mobile numbers?
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And then my phone rang and it's like, Hey, like we're cognizant.
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We do data.
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I'm like, well, they have my mobile number.
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Oh, it couldn't be that bad.
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And so we started a conversation.
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So I bought cognizant that way.
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They got me at the right time.
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You know what I mean?
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And, and.
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I don't, I think that, I think that to some extent that's good fortune
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and you'll hit enough people at the right time if you do volume,
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but I don't think that goes out.
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I bought user gems through an outbound motion and that was a bit more of, we had
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a great AE there and they, he reached out.
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It wasn't the right time.
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He kept reaching out.
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He was very, very good at building the relationship over
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a period of about seven months.
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In combination with ads in combination with the brand presence that they had and
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to me, I, I think that's probably the way forward is that it's, it's not about like,
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oh, there's this magic signal and we're gonna every time we push this button,
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like, you know, 5 times it's going to work or even 10 times it's going to work.
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I think it's about building relationships over time, patiently, diligently
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combining it across multiple channels.
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Increasing your brand presence and, uh, and then starting to see
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those things come to fruition.
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That's, that's at least the hypothesis from what I've seen.
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Yeah, which I mean, I, I fully agree with, like, you have probably multiple
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touch points through different channels that will impact the potential of
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convert conversion to a meeting or a trial, but operationalize, right?
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So like the underlying technology stack needs to probably significantly
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change to orchestrate the whole thing.
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So I'm curious, what were some of the The learnings there for you and how
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has your view on the technology stack changed throughout these three years?
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Yeah, that's a good question.
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When we bought Sixth Sense, I mean, at that time, the technology
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landscape was very different.
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That was about two years ago and it was kind of like a Coke and Pepsi market.
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By which I mean, there was like Sixth Sense and there was Demandbase.
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Maybe you would look at Terminus, but really 600 man base were like
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the two players at that time.
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It's like, Oh, you're going to do ABM.
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You got to buy one of those things.
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And we did a thorough evaluation as, as best we could, but I have to say,
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and I've experienced this reaction from other ops professionals too, that
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you sort of feel like you're going to log into the product and it's going to
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enable the process in a certain way.
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Like it's going to.
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Have like an A, B and C of like, here's your accounts.
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Here's your context.
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Here's what you do.
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And I actually don't feel that it, it really does that, that successfully.
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Um, it lets you run ads.
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It lets you define segments.
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It's pretty good at that.
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It, it brings in the signals.
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It has its model, but you're kind of on your own in terms of like.
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I think their orchestrations product is kind of subpar and and you're kind
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of on your own in terms of like, how do you stitch these workflows together?
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And there's a lot of complicated things that need to happen.
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You need to have a set of accounts.
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You need to get them into your CRM if they're not there already.
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You need to assign those accounts to a particular rep.
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You need to get contacts for those accounts.
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You need to have some sort of research process.
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You need to put those contacts into a cadence and then you need to like run
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the cadence in your tool of choice, sales loft or outreach or any of those things.
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So that's, that is super hard.
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Not hard.
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It's very achievable, but it requires either a lot of uploading
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lists, which I hate to do.
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So I'm always like, how do I, how do I automate my way out of that problem?
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Because it's a problem I personally don't want to have, or it requires a lot
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of thoughtful, thoughtful automation.
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And so we've stitched together a few different things in the past,
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the future that we're working on.
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We're going towards, I was mentioning to you guys in the pre show that I've
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moved away from six cents, did a big evaluation of, of the market, which I
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think is just a super interesting space right now, like outbound tech and lots of
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different players that are not, we went from like the Coke and Pepsi market to
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the, you know, you've just got a full.
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Aisle of like, you know, sort of craft sodas or craft beers, whatever you,
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however you want to think about it.
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Just all these different options that are kind of overlapping, kind of not
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kind of playing in different places and to, to, to spoil the punchline,
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we ended up going with Matt Kudu, which I think is a great product.
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Uh, we're just rolling that out, but there's a lot of other
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interesting players there right now.
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And, but, but I think what a lot of these newer tools are doing better is,
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is thinking through like the workflow.
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Aspect of it and providing interfaces for reps to use and and ways of automating it
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hooks that you can use either to automate in the platform or send like an outbound
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webhook to something like Zapier that can outbound a process or automate a
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process rather so they're they're being more thoughtful I think about that and.
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You know, we're still, still work in progress over here, but
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I think we're going to end up in a better place is my feeling.
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I feel like there's going to be the show where Philip and I have the least amount
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of opinions because we're so pipeline management forecasting focused and kind of
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further down the, down the funnel, but you
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got to get the pipeline from somewhere.
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Yeah, no, for sure.
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And I think, look, this is such an important topic.
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I was so looking forward to this conversation because, you know, I think.
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We'll learn a lot here today, but if you, if you think about kind
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of what you just described, right?
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So you went from kind of a bundled solution to an unbundled solution.
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There's more best of breed almost.
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So kind of, you know, the typical cycle of software bundling
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unbundling is happening again.
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If you would basically describe the different unbundled segments, right?
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Like.
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How would you describe them?
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How would you draw kind of a software map?
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Super curious.
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Now
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I love that question because that's that's the way that's the way my brain works
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and it's and it's not easy right now.
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So the hot word is signals and I think signals is both a use as useful a term as
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any and also probably very reductive and it will become, you know, a laughingstock.
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Soon people will, will signals, you know, these terms have these, these hype cycles
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and they become cringy, but whatever, if we just think of a signal is like
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a data point about a company, either something that they did first party data
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or something that we know about them.
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That they're, that they're doing or that they're thinking about,
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then I think it becomes useful.
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And you think about, okay, there's all these different data points
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and I need to come up with some way or, or think about like, all right,
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what if we targeted companies?
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Very simple.
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They're visiting our pricing page.
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You know, it's an age old signal.
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So you're like, all right, you can probably get that in your
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marketing automation platform.
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And you say, all right, but what about ones that are like reviewing us on G2?
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It's like, all right, we've got G2 for that.
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You're like, okay, but maybe they have like a project in their.
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And they're 10 K or in their annual report that's related to our value problem.
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So it's like another thing.
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So you can see how very quickly that becomes like chaotic.
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And again, for a rev ops person, you don't want to be like, all right, I
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got like 10 different lists from 10 different places pulling them in.
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So where I'm going to at that is some sort of signal aggregation.
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Platform platform that can ingest first party data third party data i think common
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room is another great option there they there are doing a great job at making
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a wide menu of signals available and and bringing them together and kind of
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showcasing how that works i think my crew is also doing a great job there and
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one of the reasons we went with them i think user gems is another company to
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look at they kind of started in the.
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The job change signal like focusing on that one signal and i think.
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I've probably seen that the future is going to be like, you can't just focus on
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one signal because someone else is going to come in and integrate that even if
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they only do it like 70 percent as good as you, it'll start to feel commoditized.
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So you need to have more.
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So they have, they have quickly expanded into a menu of a different,
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uh, additional signals as well.
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So I think of the signals as, as one layer.
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And then there's another layer that you could think of as.
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Like signal evaluation, signal analytics, like evaluating
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the efficacy of those signals.
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And again, this is, I think, more rudimentary.
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You might think about like Mad Kudu has scoring built in.
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They come from a scoring place.
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Sixth sense also has scoring this machine learning driven model where
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they're saying like, okay, I have all these different data points.
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We can see these are the ones that we think are important.
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To make someone either a good fit or have a strong propensity to buy.
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So that's like another aspect, that could be a separate tool.
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Or that could be all part of the same tool.
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And then you have the execution layer.
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Like how do you actually take these signals and start
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to do something with them.
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And this is where like everybody's got something that's called a co pilot.
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00:15:35
You see it in common room, you see it in Mad Kudu, you see it in a few
Speaker:
00:15:38
other places where you have like your hit list of either accounts or
Speaker:
00:15:42
contacts that you want to work on.
Speaker:
00:15:44
If it's just accounts, some way of sourcing those things.
Speaker:
00:15:47
So with Mad Kudu, for example, you can stitch in like your zoom info
Speaker:
00:15:50
or your Apollo or they're building a cognizant integration for us.
Speaker:
00:15:53
So that'll be good.
Speaker:
00:15:54
So you can bring them in through cognizant with common room.
Speaker:
00:15:56
They have like their own universe of, uh, Like a prospecting universe that
Speaker:
00:16:01
you can use to pull in contacts, you start with accounts that have some
Speaker:
00:16:03
signals, you bring in those contacts, and then you connect them into a cadence.
Speaker:
00:16:07
And usually then you're moving over into like your sales loft or your
Speaker:
00:16:11
outreach or your LEM list or your smart lead, whatever it is that you use.
Speaker:
00:16:16
And then there's another piece just to round it out, which is
Speaker:
00:16:18
like, where does AI play here?
Speaker:
00:16:20
And part of that can be sort of what you might think of as like the clay
Speaker:
00:16:25
piece, which is using a combination of AI intelligence and web scraping
Speaker:
00:16:33
to go and, and fetch information.
Speaker:
00:16:36
Either for the purpose of signals.
Speaker:
00:16:37
So, so you could say like, go and read all these 10 Ks and find companies
Speaker:
00:16:42
that have initiatives related to whatever buying, buying a certain
Speaker:
00:16:46
category of software or doing a certain thing, hiring people or whatever.
Speaker:
00:16:50
So that can be used for signals and also be used for the personalization
Speaker:
00:16:54
and the writing of the email.
Speaker:
00:16:55
So go find me something about this person.
Speaker:
00:16:58
We can talk about that.
Speaker:
00:16:59
I think it has has mixed results so far, but using bringing
Speaker:
00:17:02
the AI into the writing later.
Speaker:
00:17:03
So it's kind of the research layer and then the writing and composition layer.
Speaker:
00:17:06
And then there's the full blown, like we talked a bit about AISDRs.
Speaker:
00:17:11
There are AISDRs, like there really are, that both email and phone.
Speaker:
00:17:15
I had a phone conversation.
Speaker:
00:17:16
I forget the name of the company or I would give them credit, but it
Speaker:
00:17:19
was kind of a fairly credible phone conversation with With an AI speaking
Speaker:
00:17:23
to me, like it was weird when I sort of hope the future doesn't, doesn't
Speaker:
00:17:28
go there, but it was eerily okay.
Speaker:
00:17:30
Like kind of did better than a lot of BDRs would on the phone.
Speaker:
00:17:33
So, and then there's the data enrichment piece as well.
Speaker:
00:17:36
So sorry, that was a lot of different categories, but it just gives you a
Speaker:
00:17:39
sense, I guess, to, let's just collect real quick, just for the listeners.
Speaker:
00:17:43
So basically you have the, uh, signal aggregation platforms, right.
Speaker:
00:17:47
That essentially aggregate first.
Speaker:
00:17:49
Second, third party signals that might also be, you know, then kind of the
Speaker:
00:17:54
clay model where you actually kind of have a lot of flexibility around kind
Speaker:
00:17:59
of scraping information, then action, basically taking action on that.
Speaker:
00:18:05
You have the sales engagement platforms that are usually the execution layers.
Speaker:
00:18:10
You have the sales intelligence tools, right?
Speaker:
00:18:13
So the data enrichment tools that then sometimes get combined, I think that has.
Speaker:
00:18:19
Being the case for, for many years already, some tools like clay make
Speaker:
00:18:23
that maybe a bit easier, right?
Speaker:
00:18:24
But it also comes with the cost, let's say.
Speaker:
00:18:27
Um, and then you have kind of AI co pilots.
Speaker:
00:18:32
That sometimes sit in these tools or separately anything else, or
Speaker:
00:18:36
is that a fair representation or how would you adjust that now?
Speaker:
00:18:40
Um, I'm learning here
Speaker:
00:18:41
on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, that was,
Speaker:
00:18:43
that was a DC summary.
Speaker:
00:18:44
There's the, the analytics piece.
Speaker:
00:18:45
So whether you have some kind of scoring or even just a way of measuring the
Speaker:
00:18:49
efficacy, like anyone who's run one of these plays have known you, you can
Speaker:
00:18:52
say, are, are we got 10 meetings or 10 opportunities from outbound this month?
Speaker:
00:18:56
Like what was the thing, which play did they.
Speaker:
00:18:59
Come in from, that's actually really hard to track and to measure.
Speaker:
00:19:04
So there's that piece as well.
Speaker:
00:19:05
Go ahead, Philip.
Speaker:
00:19:06
Yeah, no, no, no.
Speaker:
00:19:07
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:19:07
I just wanted to agree, right.
Speaker:
00:19:08
Because I think this is typically also with like just marketing campaigns in
Speaker:
00:19:12
general, like this, these whole cohort analysis they need to run, which are
Speaker:
00:19:16
hard to do, first of all, it's hard to do a cohort analysis, like really
Speaker:
00:19:19
rigidly with all like the gaps in data that most sales motions have.
Speaker:
00:19:24
And then the other pieces you need to have like a good end.
Speaker:
00:19:27
And I would argue like most of the like motions don't have like a big enough N
Speaker:
00:19:33
in a short amount of time to actually really be statistically significant.
Speaker:
00:19:38
So it's more like always like, Hey, here's like this trend we're seeing.
Speaker:
00:19:41
It could be like actually working or not.
Speaker:
00:19:43
Like maybe like you never really know, like you need to be like a
Speaker:
00:19:47
company at a huge size, like with a very fast deal of velocity to
Speaker:
00:19:51
actually really do that properly.
Speaker:
00:19:54
That part.
Speaker:
00:19:54
Agreed.
Speaker:
00:19:55
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:19:55
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:19:56
I wanted to add one more, right?
Speaker:
00:19:57
Like, and I think it's then also to have the AI agent to actually do then
Speaker:
00:20:00
the, to take care of all the outbound work, at least partially, right?
Speaker:
00:20:04
I think the phone calling, that definitely is creepy, but I can,
Speaker:
00:20:08
I can totally see use case for this and it will become better.
Speaker:
00:20:11
But I think just like in an agent that prepares the emails, Oh,
Speaker:
00:20:14
like basically like a service that does this really, really well.
Speaker:
00:20:18
So maybe even sends it out, right?
Speaker:
00:20:20
Automatically at the perfect time.
Speaker:
00:20:22
And yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:23
If you can trust that.
Speaker:
00:20:24
Looking at that use case, there's another tool that I'll give a shout out
Speaker:
00:20:27
to, which is Evobot, and it's a good example of how these are like slightly
Speaker:
00:20:31
overlapping, but not fully the same.
Speaker:
00:20:33
So like Evobot, really, it's not like detecting new accounts for you.
Speaker:
00:20:38
It's presuming that you already have an account universe, and it's presuming that
Speaker:
00:20:41
even you already have a contact universe.
Speaker:
00:20:42
So it's like kind of downstream from the signal aggregation, the
Speaker:
00:20:45
contact sourcing, all that stuff.
Speaker:
00:20:47
And what it's doing Hopefully those folks will forgive me if
Speaker:
00:20:51
I misstate their value prop.
Speaker:
00:20:52
But what I took away at least was it's looking at these contacts and
Speaker:
00:20:57
companies and then it's doing that AI research, sort of that clay
Speaker:
00:21:00
type web scraping and AI stuff.
Speaker:
00:21:02
And it's, it's taking like, all right, I know that Justin works at
Speaker:
00:21:05
three 60 learning, we sell an LMS.
Speaker:
00:21:07
These are the sorts of use cases they have.
Speaker:
00:21:09
These are the sorts of value props they have now for these companies.
Speaker:
00:21:12
These are the things that like.
Speaker:
00:21:13
Match that.
Speaker:
00:21:14
So, oh, this company has this sort of initiative and this sort of thing.
Speaker:
00:21:17
So here's the angle that you should take in talking to that company.
Speaker:
00:21:21
Uh, talk about emphasize this.
Speaker:
00:21:23
So it kind of gives you messages.
Speaker:
00:21:24
It does that work of forming those connections and thinking through,
Speaker:
00:21:28
and it can do a first draft of the email and whether AI is going
Speaker:
00:21:31
to be better or not at a BDR.
Speaker:
00:21:33
It's probably only a matter of time till it gets decent at doing that.
Speaker:
00:21:37
But I think that that part is really hard.
Speaker:
00:21:39
That's the part that a skilled seller.
Speaker:
00:21:42
I think has been able to do and give him an advantage versus just somebody
Speaker:
00:21:45
who's brute forcing it being like, buy my widget, buy my widget, you know, like,
Speaker:
00:21:49
I noticed you went to this university, buy my widget, like, really, really
Speaker:
00:21:52
superficial outbound or someone that can be really thoughtful, like, hey,
Speaker:
00:21:56
Notice you're in this sort of industry and these are the kinds of pains that
Speaker:
00:21:59
you have and we have helped other companies with these very specific pains.
Speaker:
00:22:02
I'm showing you that I know you, that I understand you very well.
Speaker:
00:22:05
So I can't speak to how effectively it really does that in practice, but I think
Speaker:
00:22:09
that is an interesting application today.
Speaker:
00:22:10
I call it like forming connections between value props and real world pain
Speaker:
00:22:15
points for a very specific company.
Speaker:
00:22:18
I think, I think one, one part that is really challenging as an AESDR
Speaker:
00:22:24
sort of like what you were alluding to like SDR, who's like really
Speaker:
00:22:27
good at building relationships, essentially, or like a full cycle.
Speaker:
00:22:29
I'm not sure how you would define that.
Speaker:
00:22:32
But I think one problem, at least that I've experienced is like, you're really
Speaker:
00:22:36
becoming overwhelmed quite often.
Speaker:
00:22:38
And you have so many options of like different sales motions
Speaker:
00:22:40
and things you can try out.
Speaker:
00:22:42
And it's really hard to just like, nail one really well, or just to
Speaker:
00:22:46
have like that rigor and focus to just execute against that.
Speaker:
00:22:51
So like when I'm listening to you, when I'm thinking about you, like how
Speaker:
00:22:54
I would envision like sort of like how you are thinking about the future
Speaker:
00:22:57
of off point and where you would like it to go to sort of like to, to have
Speaker:
00:23:02
all these systems plugged together.
Speaker:
00:23:04
So that essentially as a full cycle or like advanced SDR, basic, what
Speaker:
00:23:10
I do is I have like, I log into my, like, like application or whatever.
Speaker:
00:23:15
And then it just tells me like, those are like the 10, like, I don't
Speaker:
00:23:20
know, accounts you should focus on.
Speaker:
00:23:21
And these are the three emotions that work best in the last 30 days.
Speaker:
00:23:25
So try those.
Speaker:
00:23:26
And you need to add like a little bit of research here to personalize it.
Speaker:
00:23:31
Like to what level do you think, would you see that automated?
Speaker:
00:23:35
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's not, it's not far away.
Speaker:
00:23:37
So I can sketch out a little bit how we're thinking of it using MadKudu.
Speaker:
00:23:41
So MadKudu has a co pilot and the, the cool thing about it is that
Speaker:
00:23:45
you can define different playbooks and deploy them to different teams.
Speaker:
00:23:48
So let's say you have a team that's mostly inbound.
Speaker:
00:23:51
But they do a little bit of like, call it warm outbound reactivation work
Speaker:
00:23:55
leads that have come in before that are showing activity or maybe opportunities
Speaker:
00:23:59
that were closed loss that we want to reactivate so you can kind of have
Speaker:
00:24:01
their inbound plays set up like here's your, you know, hand raisers, here's
Speaker:
00:24:06
your webinar leads, here's some leads from a trade show, typically today.
Speaker:
00:24:11
These are often like all these different reports.
Speaker:
00:24:14
We're kind of sending BDRs or SDRs in all sorts of directions.
Speaker:
00:24:17
Like follow up with this hand raiser and here's a report of webinar leads.
Speaker:
00:24:21
And by the way, go do this other thing.
Speaker:
00:24:22
Like it's very fragmented.
Speaker:
00:24:23
I would hate being a BDR for that reason.
Speaker:
00:24:25
So this provides a way to bring all those things together.
Speaker:
00:24:28
Now for a more senior, it's called enterprise SDR or BDR.
Speaker:
00:24:33
Their, their page might look a little bit different.
Speaker:
00:24:35
You could have a different set of playbooks for them.
Speaker:
00:24:37
Could be.
Speaker:
00:24:39
You know, whatever other types of intent signals, or these are companies in a
Speaker:
00:24:43
particular vertical, like a vertical campaign could be rip and replace.
Speaker:
00:24:46
So companies that we know are with competitors that you might pick
Speaker:
00:24:49
up in different ways through web scraping through job posting analysis.
Speaker:
00:24:54
And so I think of like the ops function is helping to measure all those
Speaker:
00:24:57
different plays, like you said, so not necessarily automatically surfacing them.
Speaker:
00:25:01
Well, that's an idea that I'm sure could happen in the future.
Speaker:
00:25:04
But doing the analysis and saying, like, these are our champions,
Speaker:
00:25:07
let's say we know that these plays are working at an acceptable rate.
Speaker:
00:25:11
So this is These are on lock and every day they're going to go in and
Speaker:
00:25:14
through some background automation, we're going to be constantly like
Speaker:
00:25:17
refilling those buckets with a certain number of accounts all the time.
Speaker:
00:25:21
And then maybe we're going to have challengers plays that we're, you
Speaker:
00:25:25
know, continually thinking up.
Speaker:
00:25:27
Maybe we meet biweekly.
Speaker:
00:25:29
And we come up with ideas and we roll them out and we have these
Speaker:
00:25:31
experiments that are in motion.
Speaker:
00:25:33
And so alongside these champions, we have challengers and those
Speaker:
00:25:36
challengers might do really well.
Speaker:
00:25:38
Some won't, they'll be discarded.
Speaker:
00:25:39
And the ones that do well, maybe they'll join, you know, the ranks of the champions
Speaker:
00:25:42
or maybe displace existing champions.
Speaker:
00:25:45
So you're kind of constantly running that.
Speaker:
00:25:46
That's the vision at least to have, you know, the, the best plays always
Speaker:
00:25:52
in motion and to make the best use.
Speaker:
00:25:54
Of your team's time, I think that is where ops and then wiring all the
Speaker:
00:25:59
stuff together to make that happen.
Speaker:
00:26:00
That is where ops can really add a lot of value in this process.
Speaker:
00:26:04
It sounds to me like you are still thinking of different motions for
Speaker:
00:26:08
different target audiences and accounts.
Speaker:
00:26:11
So kind of separating out the inbound versus pure kind of like,
Speaker:
00:26:17
let's say like pure, like high intent inbound versus warm inbound.
Speaker:
00:26:23
Outbound versus, you know, segments, right?
Speaker:
00:26:27
So enterprise SMB mid market, is that, is that right?
Speaker:
00:26:32
Or is that also falling apart?
Speaker:
00:26:33
I think so.
Speaker:
00:26:35
I think, I mean, ultimately the inbound outbound distinction is kind of nebulous
Speaker:
00:26:39
because everything that an SDR does is outbound to some degree, you're
Speaker:
00:26:43
reaching out to persons for some cases, they, maybe they asked you to do it.
Speaker:
00:26:46
Some cases, maybe they're like.
Speaker:
00:26:49
More subtly asking you to do in other cases, they're not asking you at all.
Speaker:
00:26:52
So I think of it on a spectrum and I think of it as, yeah, you, you want to
Speaker:
00:26:57
separate those out because you're going to deal with them in very different ways.
Speaker:
00:27:00
If somebody comes in and requests a demo, it's the single most
Speaker:
00:27:03
important signal that you can have.
Speaker:
00:27:05
It converts it 30 to 40 percent to an opportunity.
Speaker:
00:27:09
So you have to put, you know, all of your focus on treating those people,
Speaker:
00:27:14
giving them the best experience.
Speaker:
00:27:15
Responding to them as quickly as possible, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker:
00:27:18
And then there'll be a range, you know, of other signals that some are not
Speaker:
00:27:23
important enough to deal with at all.
Speaker:
00:27:24
And some of them may be.
Speaker:
00:27:26
Are much harder and require more work, but because you're really targeting
Speaker:
00:27:29
the companies and they're much bigger, it's going to yield a bigger payoff.
Speaker:
00:27:32
So we're okay with investing more effort there.
Speaker:
00:27:34
So I definitely think about breaking it down.
Speaker:
00:27:37
And I definitely think like a mid market enterprise split in your team makes sense
Speaker:
00:27:41
because those are different conversations and you want, You want reps that have
Speaker:
00:27:46
the business savvy and the acumen to have enterprise level conversations
Speaker:
00:27:51
focused on, on the enterprise and penetrating those accounts and then more
Speaker:
00:27:54
of a high velocity of in market motion.
Speaker:
00:27:56
I think that's a different skill set and probably more of a ladder
Speaker:
00:27:59
in terms of career progression.
Speaker:
00:28:01
Is, are these signals or plays combined with ads or any type of other touch
Speaker:
00:28:08
points you basically add on top?
Speaker:
00:28:10
Yeah, yeah, no, I, I think, I think they can be and, and should be, can be combined
Speaker:
00:28:16
with ads, can be combined with marketing, like events, you know, ongoing events.
Speaker:
00:28:22
Yeah, like newsletters, like marketing newsletters, content, it's all, I'm not
Speaker:
00:28:27
suggesting you could, I think it's very impractical to like orchestrate it.
Speaker:
00:28:30
Like first we do like two ads and then we do a webinar, like, like something
Speaker:
00:28:34
like really, really sequenced, but I just think if you're surrounding them.
Speaker:
00:28:38
With with value and and appearing on the radar i think i go back to that user
Speaker:
00:28:42
gems example when i recently did a case study like internally of just like really
Speaker:
00:28:47
analyzing that sales cycle from my point of view because i thought it was really
Speaker:
00:28:50
really masterful shout out to chase who's the either that sold us that but
Speaker:
00:28:54
one of the reasons why i was responsive to his message in the first place was
Speaker:
00:28:58
i was really familiar with the brand.
Speaker:
00:29:00
You know and so we underestimate how much brand opens doors on the outbound side and
Speaker:
00:29:05
is the difference between like or oh you know this company is cool and they reached
Speaker:
00:29:10
out to me like that's kind of neat so it's it's all working together in other words.
Speaker:
00:29:16
Yeah and then one other question the anonymization i
Speaker:
00:29:20
probably pronounce that wrong.
Speaker:
00:29:23
But I hope everybody knows what I mean.
Speaker:
00:29:26
Like, and of course, I mean, you can do it kind of in the RB to B way.
Speaker:
00:29:30
Right.
Speaker:
00:29:31
Where, um, like, you know, it's, it's, it's not an opt in, which is for example,
Speaker:
00:29:36
in Europe, it's not possible, but then there's many other ways how you can
Speaker:
00:29:40
basically get an email address and try to, you know, understand who those users
Speaker:
00:29:44
are, how important do you think this is for, for this, for, for these plays?
Speaker:
00:29:50
I don't know.
Speaker:
00:29:50
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
Speaker:
00:29:52
It's I really, I really don't.
Speaker:
00:29:54
And that comes back to the experimentation.
Speaker:
00:29:55
Like we've had, you know, de anonymization for years.
Speaker:
00:29:59
From a first party perspective, if you have marketing automation, as
Speaker:
00:30:02
soon as somebody fills out a form, they are cookied and they are known
Speaker:
00:30:05
and every subsequent session in that browser, you know, you were going to
Speaker:
00:30:08
have that history of what they did.
Speaker:
00:30:10
And so that's been a part.
Speaker:
00:30:11
And then there's the company level de anonymization, which, you know,
Speaker:
00:30:14
people have mixed results with and the rb2b stuff, which is, which
Speaker:
00:30:18
is, you know, illegal in some countries and controversial, at
Speaker:
00:30:21
least in others from like a privacy and ethics point of view, I think.
Speaker:
00:30:25
My take on it just from not even alluding to any of those factors beyond
Speaker:
00:30:29
just what makes the most sense if you want the web stuff is to think of it
Speaker:
00:30:35
in terms of a waterfall the same way you do with data enrichment because no
Speaker:
00:30:38
one vendor is going to cover all your bases and I think back to the you know
Speaker:
00:30:42
tech evaluation I did I think warmly is clearly the strongest player there they
Speaker:
00:30:46
really focus on the de anonymization piece and they they do exactly that they
Speaker:
00:30:52
layer their own de anonymization they do.
Speaker:
00:30:54
Oh, we have success data.
Speaker:
00:30:55
They bring in our B to B.
Speaker:
00:30:57
And so they're very focused on, like, revealing to you the largest percentage
Speaker:
00:31:01
of your, your web traffic, whether that's right to do, whether that's right to
Speaker:
00:31:06
do for, you know, for either from an ethical perspective or from a, an efficacy
Speaker:
00:31:10
perspective, like, does it actually work because someone's on your website?
Speaker:
00:31:12
Are they going to be more responsive?
Speaker:
00:31:14
Like, yeah, maybe sometimes logically, if I'm like checking something out
Speaker:
00:31:18
and someone calls me, like, at least I know who you are, presumably, but
Speaker:
00:31:22
does it mean that you're ready to buy?
Speaker:
00:31:25
Probably not.
Speaker:
00:31:25
Like, I, I look at a million vendors all the time, like, just out of interest.
Speaker:
00:31:30
I see somebody post something.
Speaker:
00:31:31
I'm like, Oh, who are they?
Speaker:
00:31:32
Who do they work for?
Speaker:
00:31:33
I'm just like a tool junkie.
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00:31:36
So I look at.
Speaker:
00:31:37
You know, I look at tech all day long.
Speaker:
00:31:38
It doesn't mean I'm going to buy anything or that I have budget
Speaker:
00:31:40
or, so I think it's one factor.
Speaker:
00:31:43
You know, if you see a big surge from a company, all sorts of
Speaker:
00:31:46
different people visiting your site, maybe that tells you something.
Speaker:
00:31:49
Does every, or I'll, I laughed at this meme for like days, but there's
Speaker:
00:31:54
a fellow named camel Rexton who runs a marketing dimension agency called
Speaker:
00:31:58
42 and posted, you know, the meme with The despicable me guy where he's
Speaker:
00:32:04
doing this presentation and he's like, you know, this and this and this.
Speaker:
00:32:08
And then he like looks like at the last slide and he's kind
Speaker:
00:32:10
of like, wait, wait a second.
Speaker:
00:32:11
So it was, it was about like, we're not going to do lead scoring.
Speaker:
00:32:14
We're going to focus on signals instead.
Speaker:
00:32:16
Signals like visits pricing page.
Speaker:
00:32:18
Then he's like, this is which is of course one of the things that
Speaker:
00:32:21
you always used in lead scoring.
Speaker:
00:32:22
So it's kind of.
Speaker:
00:32:23
Ultimately poking fun of the fact that we're sort of just coming
Speaker:
00:32:25
full circle back to where we started, um, with these, you know,
Speaker:
00:32:29
simplistic things and will they work?
Speaker:
00:32:32
Who knows?
Speaker:
00:32:32
I think that's why we need to experiment.
Speaker:
00:32:34
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:32:34
And, and like, like from a reverse perspective, right?
Speaker:
00:32:37
Like listening to all of this, like basically, I think, how do you actually
Speaker:
00:32:43
operate operationalize this then?
Speaker:
00:32:45
In your organization, how do you enable people to really do all the
Speaker:
00:32:49
experimentation like to a certain extent, but not too much because you still need
Speaker:
00:32:54
those like, you know, that that that base stuff that actually works that
Speaker:
00:32:57
foundational stuff that actually gives you all the revenue that you need to
Speaker:
00:33:01
keep things going, but also to continue to invest into experiments so you can
Speaker:
00:33:05
actually also be successful in the future and also plug all these tools together.
Speaker:
00:33:10
I mean, that that's in my mind, at least in sort of like the job of.
Speaker:
00:33:14
Yeah, wrap ups here to really make those decisions and, um, to orchestrate.
Speaker:
00:33:19
At
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00:33:20
least that's a solvable problem.
Speaker:
00:33:21
Unlike, you know, finding out who's going to buy your stuff, which sometimes
Speaker:
00:33:25
doesn't feel like a solvable problem, but no, the, but it is a complex problem
Speaker:
00:33:29
and a hard one, so the things I would think about there, I don't think.
Speaker:
00:33:33
You should have reps kind of independently, unless you have very mature
Speaker:
00:33:37
sellers who have a knack, who have a talent for figuring those things out, then
Speaker:
00:33:41
maybe you, you do want them figuring out, trying their own experiments that you can
Speaker:
00:33:46
then scale out to the rest of the team.
Speaker:
00:33:47
But generally speaking, maybe you want to work with like the manager of
Speaker:
00:33:50
that team, maybe Dimension, maybe Ops.
Speaker:
00:33:52
So I think of almost like a council of like, all right, what are we going to try?
Speaker:
00:33:56
What ideas?
Speaker:
00:33:56
Oh, I saw this.
Speaker:
00:33:57
Let's try that.
Speaker:
00:33:58
Let's do this.
Speaker:
00:33:59
Deploying those as playbooks.
Speaker:
00:34:00
And then that gets locked down.
Speaker:
00:34:02
So you deploy those playbooks and you can think of like, you know, A screen
Speaker:
00:34:05
with like different buckets and each bucket is its own rules based segment.
Speaker:
00:34:09
So rip and replace could be like companies that are in this particular,
Speaker:
00:34:13
you know, above a certain size and these geographies and these verticals that we
Speaker:
00:34:17
believe are already using a competitor.
Speaker:
00:34:20
So we're going to approach them with this messaging and you.
Speaker:
00:34:22
link it up to a cadence and mad kudu's co pilot does a really good
Speaker:
00:34:25
job at that, uh, enabling that.
Speaker:
00:34:27
Now, how do those accounts or contacts wind up in those playbooks for the reps?
Speaker:
00:34:33
You know, that's all happening behind the scenes, but there's a
Speaker:
00:34:35
whole other process to do there.
Speaker:
00:34:38
Bringing a cat like six cents has the capability to bring accounts
Speaker:
00:34:41
into your CRM automatically.
Speaker:
00:34:43
Did not have good success with that.
Speaker:
00:34:44
They have improved some of their matching logic, but the big issue is
Speaker:
00:34:47
like creating duplicate accounts or that their, their data wasn't that great.
Speaker:
00:34:51
So you brought an account that like has been closed, you know,
Speaker:
00:34:55
shut down for many years, like just stuff like that, roughly speaking.
Speaker:
00:34:59
So our approach, I think is going to be like, let's build out our TAM.
Speaker:
00:35:03
Already in Sierra, like do we've done this sort of a few times over
Speaker:
00:35:07
the years, like do a big load from zoom info, build it out, clean it up.
Speaker:
00:35:10
We use ringly zoom infos ring leader with I think they call it operations OS now
Speaker:
00:35:14
to to dedupe and do that sort of stuff.
Speaker:
00:35:16
So get that nice and clean.
Speaker:
00:35:18
So you've got your accounts identify when those accounts are
Speaker:
00:35:22
ready to fall into those playbooks.
Speaker:
00:35:24
And maybe they're not assigned to anyone yet.
Speaker:
00:35:26
So the way I'm thinking of that is you might have like a Operational version
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00:35:30
of each playbook that is just looking for accounts that meet those criteria,
Speaker:
00:35:33
but isn't assigned and then based on that you can have an automatic.
Speaker:
00:35:37
Workflow.
Speaker:
00:35:38
So basically essentially when an account matches that playbook, it can
Speaker:
00:35:41
trigger a zap or a ricotta recipe or a tray rest, whatever, whatever tool
Speaker:
00:35:46
of your choice that then can kick off the assignment workflow, which for
Speaker:
00:35:50
us, we use a tool called distribution engine, which I love they're fantastic
Speaker:
00:35:54
and they can assign accounts.
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00:35:55
So it can basically just like update a data value that triggers the account to be
Speaker:
00:35:59
routed account can be routed to the rep.
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00:36:01
And then it will appear in their version of the playbook.
Speaker:
00:36:04
So it's all ready to go.
Speaker:
00:36:05
And then the contact sourcing, like you can automate some of that too.
Speaker:
00:36:07
So like, these are the titles we look at, go and do that.
Speaker:
00:36:10
I generally so far prefer the reps to do that, to be a bit more thoughtful,
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00:36:14
to be a bit more researched.
Speaker:
00:36:16
I think, you know, unless you're really high volume, low ACV and you just need to
Speaker:
00:36:20
do it at scale, then that's more like you might as well just have a growth engineer
Speaker:
00:36:24
doing that in clay and be doing the.
Speaker:
00:36:26
You know, the AISDR thing and just having them do that.
Speaker:
00:36:29
And then you'll probably burn out your TAM and it'll probably stop working.
Speaker:
00:36:32
Um, if you, if you're not really good at it.
Speaker:
00:36:35
Um, but, but so having the reps be a bit more thoughtful.
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00:36:38
Yeah, that's, that's it.
Speaker:
00:36:39
So you can see that's like a lot of, a lot of steps, but I think that people don't
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00:36:43
really think about what goes into that.
Speaker:
00:36:44
If you want to avoid spreadsheet hell and I do, I think something, you know,
Speaker:
00:36:48
some variant of that is what's required.
Speaker:
00:36:50
And then the reps select the contacts and then you basically have specific
Speaker:
00:36:56
signals against those contacts or how I
Speaker:
00:36:59
think at that point, like the, they, they have been pulled into a specific playbook.
Speaker:
00:37:02
So it could also be like a contact based playbook or a lead based playbook.
Speaker:
00:37:06
There's both flavors.
Speaker:
00:37:08
Um, but you could, let's take a very simple one, close one opportunity showing.
Speaker:
00:37:14
Interest again, or being active on your website.
Speaker:
00:37:16
So you had an opportunity, it was closed last and all of a sudden that
Speaker:
00:37:19
company's like back on your site.
Speaker:
00:37:20
So maybe they're revisiting their options and that's one that, you know,
Speaker:
00:37:25
from some feedback in the market, a lot of companies see success with.
Speaker:
00:37:28
So in that case, you kind of know the company, maybe you already
Speaker:
00:37:31
have the contacts, maybe you don't, but it's like very tactical.
Speaker:
00:37:34
And but it's also not scalable.
Speaker:
00:37:36
You're sort of just like if a fish pops up in that spot, like you can try to
Speaker:
00:37:40
scoop it up in a net, but you can't control how many fish pop up there.
Speaker:
00:37:44
So it can be a component of your strategy, but not the whole thing.
Speaker:
00:37:48
I sort of think of it as like a portfolio approach, like an investment portfolio.
Speaker:
00:37:52
You want to diversify your portfolio rather than be like, all right,
Speaker:
00:37:57
this is, we just go all in on.
Speaker:
00:37:59
This is pricing page signals and that's it
Speaker:
00:38:02
i think this was also what philip alluded to earlier right you want to
Speaker:
00:38:04
have a few place that just work that are always on right this could be one
Speaker:
00:38:10
obviously demo bookings one right like there's like a bunch of place that
Speaker:
00:38:13
are like super high intent and most likely in market accounts and then you
Speaker:
00:38:18
basically go down down down down down and uh and yeah super super interesting.
Speaker:
00:38:25
Phillip, where do we go from here?
Speaker:
00:38:28
I think, firstly, I think this is the perfect moment to end.
Speaker:
00:38:31
Uh, like we talked about so much stuff and I hope that the people who listen
Speaker:
00:38:36
to this are now inspired to go and build their own outbound motions in
Speaker:
00:38:40
the way that also Justin is thinking about it, which I think is fascinating.
Speaker:
00:38:44
Like the way you structured it and the way you framed everything and
Speaker:
00:38:48
sort of like how you think about how to build these processes.
Speaker:
00:38:51
I think that's That's a really good way to get inspired.
Speaker:
00:38:54
And, and I, and I think you did that today, the audience, at
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00:38:57
least that's what I'm hoping for.
Speaker:
00:38:59
Um, we always have one final question to ask our guests.
Speaker:
00:39:02
And that is like, what is a book that you would recommend to our listeners?
Speaker:
00:39:07
So right now I'm working my way through revenue architecture by Yakov Vendikoy.
Speaker:
00:39:12
Uh, winning by design.
Speaker:
00:39:14
It's a big, it's a big, it's kind of like a textbook thickness and,
Speaker:
00:39:17
uh, and weight hardcover book.
Speaker:
00:39:19
But yeah, I think he's, he's been on my show before he's, you know, anyone who's
Speaker:
00:39:23
heard him speak knows he's a special kind of guy and it's been really interesting.
Speaker:
00:39:26
So I'd recommend folks to check that out.
Speaker:
00:39:29
Next time I'm asking this question, I will ask what book
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00:39:32
other than Revenue Architecture do you recommend to our audience?
Speaker:
00:39:34
Not everyone, but it's a great book.
Speaker:
00:39:38
It's a great book.
Speaker:
00:39:39
I actually
Speaker:
00:39:39
have it, so you know.
Speaker:
00:39:42
Yeah, you know where it is.
Speaker:
00:39:43
I'll think of one other one.
Speaker:
00:39:45
That isn't revenue architecture, it's more business than, than go to market,
Speaker:
00:39:49
but the hard thing about hard things by Ben Horowitz, my boss got that
Speaker:
00:39:53
for, uh, our team, uh, the beginning of last year and, and yeah, that
Speaker:
00:39:57
was really more just about like what goes into starting a company and the.
Speaker:
00:40:02
Grit and determination that is needed to succeed with it.
Speaker:
00:40:05
I thought it was super interesting.
Speaker:
00:40:07
Fully agree.
Speaker:
00:40:08
Love that book as well.
Speaker:
00:40:10
Revenue architecture as well.
Speaker:
00:40:12
I've been thinking of, you know, I don't know if you know, the John Henderson
Speaker:
00:40:16
meme where I think three girls sit in the car and say, Hey, let's do this.
Speaker:
00:40:19
Let's buy tools.
Speaker:
00:40:21
Anyways, you know, like I've been thinking about this for so long.
Speaker:
00:40:25
I think we'll add it to the show notes.
Speaker:
00:40:27
I think it fits very well because I think everybody listening to this show is going
Speaker:
00:40:31
to be like, Hey, let's buy some tools now.
Speaker:
00:40:33
So it's good that we're going to release it still this year.
Speaker:
00:40:36
So you can budget
Speaker:
00:40:37
that in for next year.
Speaker:
00:40:38
But no, honestly, so much.
Speaker:
00:40:40
I learned a ton.
Speaker:
00:40:41
This was fascinating.
Speaker:
00:40:42
So good.
Speaker:
00:40:43
I hope we can actually use some of that here at Weflow and yeah,
Speaker:
00:40:48
I really appreciate you coming on and sharing this with our audience.
Speaker:
00:40:51
Thanks for the chat guys.
Speaker:
00:40:52
It was a lot of fun.
Speaker:
00:40:54
Oh, thank you.
Speaker:
00:40:56
Thank you very much for listening to this episode of the RevOpsLab podcast.
Speaker:
00:41:00
Please consider to like and subscribe our show and give us a five star
Speaker:
00:41:04
rating on wherever you're listening.
Speaker:
00:41:06
If you have feedback or suggestions, let us know at podcast.
Speaker:
00:41:10
getweaflow.
Speaker:
00:41:11
com we read and reply to every email.
Speaker:
00:41:14
Thank you.
00:00:08
Welcome to the RedOpsLab, a podcast exploring the art and
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00:00:11
science of revenue operations.
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00:00:13
To find more episodes and resources on scaling your
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00:00:16
revenue engine, visit getweflow.
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00:00:18
com slash RedOps.
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00:00:22
Hello, and welcome to another edition of the RedOpsLab podcast.
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00:00:26
Our guest today is Justin Norris, senior director of marketing ops at 360 learning.
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00:00:33
Also, you may know him because he's the host of RevOps AFM.
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00:00:37
So hopefully you've heard already to his podcast and with
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00:00:41
us here is also Yanis today.
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00:00:43
So yeah, warm welcome to everyone.
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00:00:45
Great.
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00:00:46
Great to be here.
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00:00:47
Thanks for having me on guys.
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00:00:49
Great to have you.
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00:00:50
Yeah.
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00:00:51
Justin, could you introduce yourself?
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00:00:54
Sure.
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00:00:54
Yeah.
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00:00:55
So I've been in the marketing ops, marketing, RevOps world for about 15
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00:01:00
years now, kind of moved into marketing ops via the marketing automation world.
Speaker:
00:01:04
So spent a lot of time in the Marketo community, worked in consulting
Speaker:
00:01:08
there for a while, and then about three years ago, came back in house.
Speaker:
00:01:12
So today I'm running marketing ops and BDR ops at a company called 360 learning.
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00:01:17
So kind of a RevOps scope.
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00:01:19
Sort of up to where the opportunity is created is how I like to think about it.
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00:01:23
And I also host a podcast, as you mentioned, RebOps FM, find it wherever
Speaker:
00:01:27
you get your podcasts or at rebops.
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00:01:29
fm.
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00:01:29
And yeah, that's just a passion project.
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00:01:31
Something I like to do to learn, get to talk to a fun, smart people,
Speaker:
00:01:35
just like what you folks are doing.
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00:01:38
Yeah.
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00:01:38
Excellent.
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00:01:38
Yeah.
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00:01:39
We're going to link to the podcast.
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00:01:40
Of course.
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00:01:41
We're not afraid of competition.
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00:01:42
The more the merrier.
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00:01:43
Right.
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00:01:44
Yeah.
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00:01:45
And yeah.
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00:01:46
Could you briefly describe what 360 learning is, what
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00:01:49
you guys do, how you operate?
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00:01:51
Yeah.
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00:01:52
We're a corporate learning management software.
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00:01:53
So companies that want to train their employees, all sorts of different
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00:01:58
training, whether that's compliance training or their skills that certain
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00:02:01
employees have, and you want to bring those skills throughout the organization,
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00:02:04
increase the skills within your company.
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00:02:06
That's what 360 learning is for, and it's really oriented around collaborative
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00:02:09
learning, meaning like, you know, if you have 10 frontline workers, you have 10
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00:02:14
consultants in a particular role, and one of them is really great, uh, you're
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00:02:17
going to enable them to spread their knowledge to the other people to create
Speaker:
00:02:20
a course, rather than kind of a top down approach, which is very often what we
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00:02:24
see, where you have sort of a learning and development person pushing out course
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00:02:27
material that may not always be relevant.
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00:02:30
So it really brings that collaboration into the mix.
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00:02:33
Okay.
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00:02:33
Great.
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00:02:34
Yeah.
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00:02:35
Sounds good.
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00:02:35
Today.
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00:02:36
We want to talk about, we want to talk about signals.
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00:02:38
We want to talk a bit about outbound, about outbound
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00:02:41
technology, how AI is changing that.
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00:02:44
And also I think like just in general, like how outbound has changed over the
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00:02:48
last couple of years, I think it's like a space where a lot of stuff is happening.
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00:02:53
AI, AI SDRs, I think is one of those.
Speaker:
00:02:56
Like, you know, click bait, like statements that you
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00:02:59
see a lot going around.
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00:03:01
So now just curious, maybe you could explain just to get started.
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00:03:06
How do you do outbound at 360 learning at the moment?
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00:03:10
Just to get us started a bit there.
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00:03:12
Yeah, it's a good question.
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00:03:13
I mean, So we roll, roll back the clock, like, like, I think everything
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00:03:17
starts with this predictable revenue playbook that everyone's familiar
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00:03:21
with, you know, you get so many SDRs doing so many calls and so many emails,
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00:03:25
you're going to get so many meetings, so many pipelines, like, and that was
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00:03:29
the playbook for a decade or more.
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00:03:31
That's the playbook that VCs love because it feels like very
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00:03:34
predictable and plug and play.
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00:03:36
You're just going to stack up these Lego blocks and it's going to work.
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00:03:38
And my experience with outbound, you know, I supported teams on,
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00:03:42
on some more high touch ABM.
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00:03:45
Type programs during my consulting career, but really my experience begins, let's
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00:03:49
say three years ago, working hands on with BDRs, starting off more manually,
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00:03:55
but with a lot of different signals and just sort of trying to figure this out.
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00:03:59
And, you know, I've even seen during that time, the change of going from like.
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00:04:05
You know, X percent reply, like even like 5 percent reply rates
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00:04:09
and seeing that shrink down.
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00:04:10
So I think even in that short window of time for me, being able to see the
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00:04:15
impact of that model kind of breaking under the weight of too many people using
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00:04:20
it, people starting to tune it out, the market changing, whatever the underlying
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00:04:23
reasons are, just seeing that outbound model stop working or not working.
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00:04:29
With the level of efficiency that would be needed to really scale and justify it.
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00:04:34
So the question really goes like, where do you, where do
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00:04:36
you, where do you go from there?
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00:04:37
And I think that's a question, at least personally that I'm still
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00:04:40
learning about, still trying to answer my operating philosophy right now.
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00:04:45
If I had to sum it up is how can I give my teams flexibility?
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00:04:50
To try as many different things as possible, because we really are still
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00:04:54
learning all the time, like what works in today's market, so have a system where
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00:04:58
we can have some programs that are kind of like these work, or they work to an
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00:05:02
acceptable degree, so we're going to keep them on, and then let's try new things.
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00:05:06
And let's experiment.
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00:05:07
So that's principle number two is experimentation.
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00:05:10
So let's have like the biggest menu of options we can and then let's
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00:05:14
experiment and see what works.
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00:05:16
And I sort of view my role as a RevOps person in that process as being able
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00:05:20
to drive those two things and enable those two things for my peers in our
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00:05:24
business development team and on our demand gen team who I'm working with.
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00:05:28
Yeah.
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00:05:28
I mean, I think, sorry, I think the stats are quite staggering, right?
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00:05:32
If you look at, and I mean, it's always a question, you know, what data can
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00:05:37
you trust here and how many touch points do you need and you know, what
Speaker:
00:05:40
exactly are the right benchmarks, but I'm curious within these last three
Speaker:
00:05:45
years, I mean, like, Your conclusion of to focus on enablement of flexibility
Speaker:
00:05:51
and being able to run experiments.
Speaker:
00:05:53
You know, why, why is that focus?
Speaker:
00:05:56
How, how did you come, come to that conclusion?
Speaker:
00:05:59
I think just because I don't, I don't feel confident to say like, Oh, this
Speaker:
00:06:03
is like what works, you know, whereas in the past, maybe like we bought
Speaker:
00:06:08
six cents and started using their intense signals and maybe in the past.
Speaker:
00:06:13
You know, you could just do that and say, all right, six cents
Speaker:
00:06:16
says this company's in market.
Speaker:
00:06:18
I'm going to call them and be like, Hey, like this is us.
Speaker:
00:06:20
This is what we do.
Speaker:
00:06:21
Buy something, you know, and a few emails and that could
Speaker:
00:06:25
work to an acceptable degree.
Speaker:
00:06:27
And I just don't think that works anymore.
Speaker:
00:06:28
And that's not a knock just against six cents per se, but I don't think
Speaker:
00:06:32
that those signals are silver bullets.
Speaker:
00:06:35
So we want to try different things and Ultimately, if I observe my own
Speaker:
00:06:44
like past buying experiences, which are the things that I like to do that
Speaker:
00:06:47
they're not universal, but the things that are closest to me when I look at
Speaker:
00:06:50
like, what did I buy through outbound?
Speaker:
00:06:52
I bought Cognizant.
Speaker:
00:06:53
Why?
Speaker:
00:06:54
Because they called me.
Speaker:
00:06:55
And I was thinking about, Oh, how do I get more mobile numbers?
Speaker:
00:06:58
And then my phone rang and it's like, Hey, like we're cognizant.
Speaker:
00:07:01
We do data.
Speaker:
00:07:02
I'm like, well, they have my mobile number.
Speaker:
00:07:04
Oh, it couldn't be that bad.
Speaker:
00:07:06
And so we started a conversation.
Speaker:
00:07:08
So I bought cognizant that way.
Speaker:
00:07:09
They got me at the right time.
Speaker:
00:07:11
You know what I mean?
Speaker:
00:07:11
And, and.
Speaker:
00:07:13
I don't, I think that, I think that to some extent that's good fortune
Speaker:
00:07:16
and you'll hit enough people at the right time if you do volume,
Speaker:
00:07:19
but I don't think that goes out.
Speaker:
00:07:20
I bought user gems through an outbound motion and that was a bit more of, we had
Speaker:
00:07:25
a great AE there and they, he reached out.
Speaker:
00:07:28
It wasn't the right time.
Speaker:
00:07:29
He kept reaching out.
Speaker:
00:07:30
He was very, very good at building the relationship over
Speaker:
00:07:33
a period of about seven months.
Speaker:
00:07:35
In combination with ads in combination with the brand presence that they had and
Speaker:
00:07:41
to me, I, I think that's probably the way forward is that it's, it's not about like,
Speaker:
00:07:45
oh, there's this magic signal and we're gonna every time we push this button,
Speaker:
00:07:49
like, you know, 5 times it's going to work or even 10 times it's going to work.
Speaker:
00:07:53
I think it's about building relationships over time, patiently, diligently
Speaker:
00:07:59
combining it across multiple channels.
Speaker:
00:08:01
Increasing your brand presence and, uh, and then starting to see
Speaker:
00:08:04
those things come to fruition.
Speaker:
00:08:05
That's, that's at least the hypothesis from what I've seen.
Speaker:
00:08:08
Yeah, which I mean, I, I fully agree with, like, you have probably multiple
Speaker:
00:08:13
touch points through different channels that will impact the potential of
Speaker:
00:08:20
convert conversion to a meeting or a trial, but operationalize, right?
Speaker:
00:08:29
So like the underlying technology stack needs to probably significantly
Speaker:
00:08:33
change to orchestrate the whole thing.
Speaker:
00:08:36
So I'm curious, what were some of the The learnings there for you and how
Speaker:
00:08:42
has your view on the technology stack changed throughout these three years?
Speaker:
00:08:47
Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker:
00:08:50
When we bought Sixth Sense, I mean, at that time, the technology
Speaker:
00:08:53
landscape was very different.
Speaker:
00:08:54
That was about two years ago and it was kind of like a Coke and Pepsi market.
Speaker:
00:08:58
By which I mean, there was like Sixth Sense and there was Demandbase.
Speaker:
00:09:02
Maybe you would look at Terminus, but really 600 man base were like
Speaker:
00:09:04
the two players at that time.
Speaker:
00:09:06
It's like, Oh, you're going to do ABM.
Speaker:
00:09:07
You got to buy one of those things.
Speaker:
00:09:09
And we did a thorough evaluation as, as best we could, but I have to say,
Speaker:
00:09:16
and I've experienced this reaction from other ops professionals too, that
Speaker:
00:09:20
you sort of feel like you're going to log into the product and it's going to
Speaker:
00:09:24
enable the process in a certain way.
Speaker:
00:09:27
Like it's going to.
Speaker:
00:09:28
Have like an A, B and C of like, here's your accounts.
Speaker:
00:09:31
Here's your context.
Speaker:
00:09:31
Here's what you do.
Speaker:
00:09:32
And I actually don't feel that it, it really does that, that successfully.
Speaker:
00:09:37
Um, it lets you run ads.
Speaker:
00:09:38
It lets you define segments.
Speaker:
00:09:39
It's pretty good at that.
Speaker:
00:09:40
It, it brings in the signals.
Speaker:
00:09:42
It has its model, but you're kind of on your own in terms of like.
Speaker:
00:09:46
I think their orchestrations product is kind of subpar and and you're kind
Speaker:
00:09:50
of on your own in terms of like, how do you stitch these workflows together?
Speaker:
00:09:53
And there's a lot of complicated things that need to happen.
Speaker:
00:09:55
You need to have a set of accounts.
Speaker:
00:09:57
You need to get them into your CRM if they're not there already.
Speaker:
00:10:00
You need to assign those accounts to a particular rep.
Speaker:
00:10:03
You need to get contacts for those accounts.
Speaker:
00:10:05
You need to have some sort of research process.
Speaker:
00:10:07
You need to put those contacts into a cadence and then you need to like run
Speaker:
00:10:10
the cadence in your tool of choice, sales loft or outreach or any of those things.
Speaker:
00:10:14
So that's, that is super hard.
Speaker:
00:10:17
Not hard.
Speaker:
00:10:17
It's very achievable, but it requires either a lot of uploading
Speaker:
00:10:22
lists, which I hate to do.
Speaker:
00:10:23
So I'm always like, how do I, how do I automate my way out of that problem?
Speaker:
00:10:27
Because it's a problem I personally don't want to have, or it requires a lot
Speaker:
00:10:30
of thoughtful, thoughtful automation.
Speaker:
00:10:33
And so we've stitched together a few different things in the past,
Speaker:
00:10:36
the future that we're working on.
Speaker:
00:10:37
We're going towards, I was mentioning to you guys in the pre show that I've
Speaker:
00:10:41
moved away from six cents, did a big evaluation of, of the market, which I
Speaker:
00:10:46
think is just a super interesting space right now, like outbound tech and lots of
Speaker:
00:10:50
different players that are not, we went from like the Coke and Pepsi market to
Speaker:
00:10:54
the, you know, you've just got a full.
Speaker:
00:10:57
Aisle of like, you know, sort of craft sodas or craft beers, whatever you,
Speaker:
00:11:02
however you want to think about it.
Speaker:
00:11:03
Just all these different options that are kind of overlapping, kind of not
Speaker:
00:11:07
kind of playing in different places and to, to, to spoil the punchline,
Speaker:
00:11:11
we ended up going with Matt Kudu, which I think is a great product.
Speaker:
00:11:14
Uh, we're just rolling that out, but there's a lot of other
Speaker:
00:11:16
interesting players there right now.
Speaker:
00:11:18
And, but, but I think what a lot of these newer tools are doing better is,
Speaker:
00:11:23
is thinking through like the workflow.
Speaker:
00:11:24
Aspect of it and providing interfaces for reps to use and and ways of automating it
Speaker:
00:11:31
hooks that you can use either to automate in the platform or send like an outbound
Speaker:
00:11:34
webhook to something like Zapier that can outbound a process or automate a
Speaker:
00:11:38
process rather so they're they're being more thoughtful I think about that and.
Speaker:
00:11:43
You know, we're still, still work in progress over here, but
Speaker:
00:11:45
I think we're going to end up in a better place is my feeling.
Speaker:
00:11:48
I feel like there's going to be the show where Philip and I have the least amount
Speaker:
00:11:52
of opinions because we're so pipeline management forecasting focused and kind of
Speaker:
00:11:56
further down the, down the funnel, but you
Speaker:
00:11:59
got to get the pipeline from somewhere.
Speaker:
00:12:01
Yeah, no, for sure.
Speaker:
00:12:02
And I think, look, this is such an important topic.
Speaker:
00:12:04
I was so looking forward to this conversation because, you know, I think.
Speaker:
00:12:08
We'll learn a lot here today, but if you, if you think about kind
Speaker:
00:12:12
of what you just described, right?
Speaker:
00:12:13
So you went from kind of a bundled solution to an unbundled solution.
Speaker:
00:12:17
There's more best of breed almost.
Speaker:
00:12:19
So kind of, you know, the typical cycle of software bundling
Speaker:
00:12:23
unbundling is happening again.
Speaker:
00:12:25
If you would basically describe the different unbundled segments, right?
Speaker:
00:12:30
Like.
Speaker:
00:12:30
How would you describe them?
Speaker:
00:12:32
How would you draw kind of a software map?
Speaker:
00:12:34
Super curious.
Speaker:
00:12:35
Now
Speaker:
00:12:35
I love that question because that's that's the way that's the way my brain works
Speaker:
00:12:39
and it's and it's not easy right now.
Speaker:
00:12:41
So the hot word is signals and I think signals is both a use as useful a term as
Speaker:
00:12:49
any and also probably very reductive and it will become, you know, a laughingstock.
Speaker:
00:12:54
Soon people will, will signals, you know, these terms have these, these hype cycles
Speaker:
00:12:58
and they become cringy, but whatever, if we just think of a signal is like
Speaker:
00:13:03
a data point about a company, either something that they did first party data
Speaker:
00:13:08
or something that we know about them.
Speaker:
00:13:10
That they're, that they're doing or that they're thinking about,
Speaker:
00:13:14
then I think it becomes useful.
Speaker:
00:13:15
And you think about, okay, there's all these different data points
Speaker:
00:13:19
and I need to come up with some way or, or think about like, all right,
Speaker:
00:13:23
what if we targeted companies?
Speaker:
00:13:24
Very simple.
Speaker:
00:13:25
They're visiting our pricing page.
Speaker:
00:13:27
You know, it's an age old signal.
Speaker:
00:13:29
So you're like, all right, you can probably get that in your
Speaker:
00:13:31
marketing automation platform.
Speaker:
00:13:33
And you say, all right, but what about ones that are like reviewing us on G2?
Speaker:
00:13:36
It's like, all right, we've got G2 for that.
Speaker:
00:13:37
You're like, okay, but maybe they have like a project in their.
Speaker:
00:13:41
And they're 10 K or in their annual report that's related to our value problem.
Speaker:
00:13:46
So it's like another thing.
Speaker:
00:13:47
So you can see how very quickly that becomes like chaotic.
Speaker:
00:13:51
And again, for a rev ops person, you don't want to be like, all right, I
Speaker:
00:13:54
got like 10 different lists from 10 different places pulling them in.
Speaker:
00:13:57
So where I'm going to at that is some sort of signal aggregation.
Speaker:
00:14:01
Platform platform that can ingest first party data third party data i think common
Speaker:
00:14:07
room is another great option there they there are doing a great job at making
Speaker:
00:14:12
a wide menu of signals available and and bringing them together and kind of
Speaker:
00:14:17
showcasing how that works i think my crew is also doing a great job there and
Speaker:
00:14:21
one of the reasons we went with them i think user gems is another company to
Speaker:
00:14:24
look at they kind of started in the.
Speaker:
00:14:26
The job change signal like focusing on that one signal and i think.
Speaker:
00:14:30
I've probably seen that the future is going to be like, you can't just focus on
Speaker:
00:14:34
one signal because someone else is going to come in and integrate that even if
Speaker:
00:14:38
they only do it like 70 percent as good as you, it'll start to feel commoditized.
Speaker:
00:14:42
So you need to have more.
Speaker:
00:14:43
So they have, they have quickly expanded into a menu of a different,
Speaker:
00:14:46
uh, additional signals as well.
Speaker:
00:14:47
So I think of the signals as, as one layer.
Speaker:
00:14:50
And then there's another layer that you could think of as.
Speaker:
00:14:54
Like signal evaluation, signal analytics, like evaluating
Speaker:
00:14:59
the efficacy of those signals.
Speaker:
00:15:00
And again, this is, I think, more rudimentary.
Speaker:
00:15:03
You might think about like Mad Kudu has scoring built in.
Speaker:
00:15:06
They come from a scoring place.
Speaker:
00:15:07
Sixth sense also has scoring this machine learning driven model where
Speaker:
00:15:10
they're saying like, okay, I have all these different data points.
Speaker:
00:15:12
We can see these are the ones that we think are important.
Speaker:
00:15:15
To make someone either a good fit or have a strong propensity to buy.
Speaker:
00:15:20
So that's like another aspect, that could be a separate tool.
Speaker:
00:15:22
Or that could be all part of the same tool.
Speaker:
00:15:24
And then you have the execution layer.
Speaker:
00:15:27
Like how do you actually take these signals and start
Speaker:
00:15:30
to do something with them.
Speaker:
00:15:31
And this is where like everybody's got something that's called a co pilot.
Speaker:
00:15:35
You see it in common room, you see it in Mad Kudu, you see it in a few
Speaker:
00:15:38
other places where you have like your hit list of either accounts or
Speaker:
00:15:42
contacts that you want to work on.
Speaker:
00:15:44
If it's just accounts, some way of sourcing those things.
Speaker:
00:15:47
So with Mad Kudu, for example, you can stitch in like your zoom info
Speaker:
00:15:50
or your Apollo or they're building a cognizant integration for us.
Speaker:
00:15:53
So that'll be good.
Speaker:
00:15:54
So you can bring them in through cognizant with common room.
Speaker:
00:15:56
They have like their own universe of, uh, Like a prospecting universe that
Speaker:
00:16:01
you can use to pull in contacts, you start with accounts that have some
Speaker:
00:16:03
signals, you bring in those contacts, and then you connect them into a cadence.
Speaker:
00:16:07
And usually then you're moving over into like your sales loft or your
Speaker:
00:16:11
outreach or your LEM list or your smart lead, whatever it is that you use.
Speaker:
00:16:16
And then there's another piece just to round it out, which is
Speaker:
00:16:18
like, where does AI play here?
Speaker:
00:16:20
And part of that can be sort of what you might think of as like the clay
Speaker:
00:16:25
piece, which is using a combination of AI intelligence and web scraping
Speaker:
00:16:33
to go and, and fetch information.
Speaker:
00:16:36
Either for the purpose of signals.
Speaker:
00:16:37
So, so you could say like, go and read all these 10 Ks and find companies
Speaker:
00:16:42
that have initiatives related to whatever buying, buying a certain
Speaker:
00:16:46
category of software or doing a certain thing, hiring people or whatever.
Speaker:
00:16:50
So that can be used for signals and also be used for the personalization
Speaker:
00:16:54
and the writing of the email.
Speaker:
00:16:55
So go find me something about this person.
Speaker:
00:16:58
We can talk about that.
Speaker:
00:16:59
I think it has has mixed results so far, but using bringing
Speaker:
00:17:02
the AI into the writing later.
Speaker:
00:17:03
So it's kind of the research layer and then the writing and composition layer.
Speaker:
00:17:06
And then there's the full blown, like we talked a bit about AISDRs.
Speaker:
00:17:11
There are AISDRs, like there really are, that both email and phone.
Speaker:
00:17:15
I had a phone conversation.
Speaker:
00:17:16
I forget the name of the company or I would give them credit, but it
Speaker:
00:17:19
was kind of a fairly credible phone conversation with With an AI speaking
Speaker:
00:17:23
to me, like it was weird when I sort of hope the future doesn't, doesn't
Speaker:
00:17:28
go there, but it was eerily okay.
Speaker:
00:17:30
Like kind of did better than a lot of BDRs would on the phone.
Speaker:
00:17:33
So, and then there's the data enrichment piece as well.
Speaker:
00:17:36
So sorry, that was a lot of different categories, but it just gives you a
Speaker:
00:17:39
sense, I guess, to, let's just collect real quick, just for the listeners.
Speaker:
00:17:43
So basically you have the, uh, signal aggregation platforms, right.
Speaker:
00:17:47
That essentially aggregate first.
Speaker:
00:17:49
Second, third party signals that might also be, you know, then kind of the
Speaker:
00:17:54
clay model where you actually kind of have a lot of flexibility around kind
Speaker:
00:17:59
of scraping information, then action, basically taking action on that.
Speaker:
00:18:05
You have the sales engagement platforms that are usually the execution layers.
Speaker:
00:18:10
You have the sales intelligence tools, right?
Speaker:
00:18:13
So the data enrichment tools that then sometimes get combined, I think that has.
Speaker:
00:18:19
Being the case for, for many years already, some tools like clay make
Speaker:
00:18:23
that maybe a bit easier, right?
Speaker:
00:18:24
But it also comes with the cost, let's say.
Speaker:
00:18:27
Um, and then you have kind of AI co pilots.
Speaker:
00:18:32
That sometimes sit in these tools or separately anything else, or
Speaker:
00:18:36
is that a fair representation or how would you adjust that now?
Speaker:
00:18:40
Um, I'm learning here
Speaker:
00:18:41
on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, that was,
Speaker:
00:18:43
that was a DC summary.
Speaker:
00:18:44
There's the, the analytics piece.
Speaker:
00:18:45
So whether you have some kind of scoring or even just a way of measuring the
Speaker:
00:18:49
efficacy, like anyone who's run one of these plays have known you, you can
Speaker:
00:18:52
say, are, are we got 10 meetings or 10 opportunities from outbound this month?
Speaker:
00:18:56
Like what was the thing, which play did they.
Speaker:
00:18:59
Come in from, that's actually really hard to track and to measure.
Speaker:
00:19:04
So there's that piece as well.
Speaker:
00:19:05
Go ahead, Philip.
Speaker:
00:19:06
Yeah, no, no, no.
Speaker:
00:19:07
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:19:07
I just wanted to agree, right.
Speaker:
00:19:08
Because I think this is typically also with like just marketing campaigns in
Speaker:
00:19:12
general, like this, these whole cohort analysis they need to run, which are
Speaker:
00:19:16
hard to do, first of all, it's hard to do a cohort analysis, like really
Speaker:
00:19:19
rigidly with all like the gaps in data that most sales motions have.
Speaker:
00:19:24
And then the other pieces you need to have like a good end.
Speaker:
00:19:27
And I would argue like most of the like motions don't have like a big enough N
Speaker:
00:19:33
in a short amount of time to actually really be statistically significant.
Speaker:
00:19:38
So it's more like always like, Hey, here's like this trend we're seeing.
Speaker:
00:19:41
It could be like actually working or not.
Speaker:
00:19:43
Like maybe like you never really know, like you need to be like a
Speaker:
00:19:47
company at a huge size, like with a very fast deal of velocity to
Speaker:
00:19:51
actually really do that properly.
Speaker:
00:19:54
That part.
Speaker:
00:19:54
Agreed.
Speaker:
00:19:55
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:19:55
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:19:56
I wanted to add one more, right?
Speaker:
00:19:57
Like, and I think it's then also to have the AI agent to actually do then
Speaker:
00:20:00
the, to take care of all the outbound work, at least partially, right?
Speaker:
00:20:04
I think the phone calling, that definitely is creepy, but I can,
Speaker:
00:20:08
I can totally see use case for this and it will become better.
Speaker:
00:20:11
But I think just like in an agent that prepares the emails, Oh,
Speaker:
00:20:14
like basically like a service that does this really, really well.
Speaker:
00:20:18
So maybe even sends it out, right?
Speaker:
00:20:20
Automatically at the perfect time.
Speaker:
00:20:22
And yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:23
If you can trust that.
Speaker:
00:20:24
Looking at that use case, there's another tool that I'll give a shout out
Speaker:
00:20:27
to, which is Evobot, and it's a good example of how these are like slightly
Speaker:
00:20:31
overlapping, but not fully the same.
Speaker:
00:20:33
So like Evobot, really, it's not like detecting new accounts for you.
Speaker:
00:20:38
It's presuming that you already have an account universe, and it's presuming that
Speaker:
00:20:41
even you already have a contact universe.
Speaker:
00:20:42
So it's like kind of downstream from the signal aggregation, the
Speaker:
00:20:45
contact sourcing, all that stuff.
Speaker:
00:20:47
And what it's doing Hopefully those folks will forgive me if
Speaker:
00:20:51
I misstate their value prop.
Speaker:
00:20:52
But what I took away at least was it's looking at these contacts and
Speaker:
00:20:57
companies and then it's doing that AI research, sort of that clay
Speaker:
00:21:00
type web scraping and AI stuff.
Speaker:
00:21:02
And it's, it's taking like, all right, I know that Justin works at
Speaker:
00:21:05
three 60 learning, we sell an LMS.
Speaker:
00:21:07
These are the sorts of use cases they have.
Speaker:
00:21:09
These are the sorts of value props they have now for these companies.
Speaker:
00:21:12
These are the things that like.
Speaker:
00:21:13
Match that.
Speaker:
00:21:14
So, oh, this company has this sort of initiative and this sort of thing.
Speaker:
00:21:17
So here's the angle that you should take in talking to that company.
Speaker:
00:21:21
Uh, talk about emphasize this.
Speaker:
00:21:23
So it kind of gives you messages.
Speaker:
00:21:24
It does that work of forming those connections and thinking through,
Speaker:
00:21:28
and it can do a first draft of the email and whether AI is going
Speaker:
00:21:31
to be better or not at a BDR.
Speaker:
00:21:33
It's probably only a matter of time till it gets decent at doing that.
Speaker:
00:21:37
But I think that that part is really hard.
Speaker:
00:21:39
That's the part that a skilled seller.
Speaker:
00:21:42
I think has been able to do and give him an advantage versus just somebody
Speaker:
00:21:45
who's brute forcing it being like, buy my widget, buy my widget, you know, like,
Speaker:
00:21:49
I noticed you went to this university, buy my widget, like, really, really
Speaker:
00:21:52
superficial outbound or someone that can be really thoughtful, like, hey,
Speaker:
00:21:56
Notice you're in this sort of industry and these are the kinds of pains that
Speaker:
00:21:59
you have and we have helped other companies with these very specific pains.
Speaker:
00:22:02
I'm showing you that I know you, that I understand you very well.
Speaker:
00:22:05
So I can't speak to how effectively it really does that in practice, but I think
Speaker:
00:22:09
that is an interesting application today.
Speaker:
00:22:10
I call it like forming connections between value props and real world pain
Speaker:
00:22:15
points for a very specific company.
Speaker:
00:22:18
I think, I think one, one part that is really challenging as an AESDR
Speaker:
00:22:24
sort of like what you were alluding to like SDR, who's like really
Speaker:
00:22:27
good at building relationships, essentially, or like a full cycle.
Speaker:
00:22:29
I'm not sure how you would define that.
Speaker:
00:22:32
But I think one problem, at least that I've experienced is like, you're really
Speaker:
00:22:36
becoming overwhelmed quite often.
Speaker:
00:22:38
And you have so many options of like different sales motions
Speaker:
00:22:40
and things you can try out.
Speaker:
00:22:42
And it's really hard to just like, nail one really well, or just to
Speaker:
00:22:46
have like that rigor and focus to just execute against that.
Speaker:
00:22:51
So like when I'm listening to you, when I'm thinking about you, like how
Speaker:
00:22:54
I would envision like sort of like how you are thinking about the future
Speaker:
00:22:57
of off point and where you would like it to go to sort of like to, to have
Speaker:
00:23:02
all these systems plugged together.
Speaker:
00:23:04
So that essentially as a full cycle or like advanced SDR, basic, what
Speaker:
00:23:10
I do is I have like, I log into my, like, like application or whatever.
Speaker:
00:23:15
And then it just tells me like, those are like the 10, like, I don't
Speaker:
00:23:20
know, accounts you should focus on.
Speaker:
00:23:21
And these are the three emotions that work best in the last 30 days.
Speaker:
00:23:25
So try those.
Speaker:
00:23:26
And you need to add like a little bit of research here to personalize it.
Speaker:
00:23:31
Like to what level do you think, would you see that automated?
Speaker:
00:23:35
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's not, it's not far away.
Speaker:
00:23:37
So I can sketch out a little bit how we're thinking of it using MadKudu.
Speaker:
00:23:41
So MadKudu has a co pilot and the, the cool thing about it is that
Speaker:
00:23:45
you can define different playbooks and deploy them to different teams.
Speaker:
00:23:48
So let's say you have a team that's mostly inbound.
Speaker:
00:23:51
But they do a little bit of like, call it warm outbound reactivation work
Speaker:
00:23:55
leads that have come in before that are showing activity or maybe opportunities
Speaker:
00:23:59
that were closed loss that we want to reactivate so you can kind of have
Speaker:
00:24:01
their inbound plays set up like here's your, you know, hand raisers, here's
Speaker:
00:24:06
your webinar leads, here's some leads from a trade show, typically today.
Speaker:
00:24:11
These are often like all these different reports.
Speaker:
00:24:14
We're kind of sending BDRs or SDRs in all sorts of directions.
Speaker:
00:24:17
Like follow up with this hand raiser and here's a report of webinar leads.
Speaker:
00:24:21
And by the way, go do this other thing.
Speaker:
00:24:22
Like it's very fragmented.
Speaker:
00:24:23
I would hate being a BDR for that reason.
Speaker:
00:24:25
So this provides a way to bring all those things together.
Speaker:
00:24:28
Now for a more senior, it's called enterprise SDR or BDR.
Speaker:
00:24:33
Their, their page might look a little bit different.
Speaker:
00:24:35
You could have a different set of playbooks for them.
Speaker:
00:24:37
Could be.
Speaker:
00:24:39
You know, whatever other types of intent signals, or these are companies in a
Speaker:
00:24:43
particular vertical, like a vertical campaign could be rip and replace.
Speaker:
00:24:46
So companies that we know are with competitors that you might pick
Speaker:
00:24:49
up in different ways through web scraping through job posting analysis.
Speaker:
00:24:54
And so I think of like the ops function is helping to measure all those
Speaker:
00:24:57
different plays, like you said, so not necessarily automatically surfacing them.
Speaker:
00:25:01
Well, that's an idea that I'm sure could happen in the future.
Speaker:
00:25:04
But doing the analysis and saying, like, these are our champions,
Speaker:
00:25:07
let's say we know that these plays are working at an acceptable rate.
Speaker:
00:25:11
So this is These are on lock and every day they're going to go in and
Speaker:
00:25:14
through some background automation, we're going to be constantly like
Speaker:
00:25:17
refilling those buckets with a certain number of accounts all the time.
Speaker:
00:25:21
And then maybe we're going to have challengers plays that we're, you
Speaker:
00:25:25
know, continually thinking up.
Speaker:
00:25:27
Maybe we meet biweekly.
Speaker:
00:25:29
And we come up with ideas and we roll them out and we have these
Speaker:
00:25:31
experiments that are in motion.
Speaker:
00:25:33
And so alongside these champions, we have challengers and those
Speaker:
00:25:36
challengers might do really well.
Speaker:
00:25:38
Some won't, they'll be discarded.
Speaker:
00:25:39
And the ones that do well, maybe they'll join, you know, the ranks of the champions
Speaker:
00:25:42
or maybe displace existing champions.
Speaker:
00:25:45
So you're kind of constantly running that.
Speaker:
00:25:46
That's the vision at least to have, you know, the, the best plays always
Speaker:
00:25:52
in motion and to make the best use.
Speaker:
00:25:54
Of your team's time, I think that is where ops and then wiring all the
Speaker:
00:25:59
stuff together to make that happen.
Speaker:
00:26:00
That is where ops can really add a lot of value in this process.
Speaker:
00:26:04
It sounds to me like you are still thinking of different motions for
Speaker:
00:26:08
different target audiences and accounts.
Speaker:
00:26:11
So kind of separating out the inbound versus pure kind of like,
Speaker:
00:26:17
let's say like pure, like high intent inbound versus warm inbound.
Speaker:
00:26:23
Outbound versus, you know, segments, right?
Speaker:
00:26:27
So enterprise SMB mid market, is that, is that right?
Speaker:
00:26:32
Or is that also falling apart?
Speaker:
00:26:33
I think so.
Speaker:
00:26:35
I think, I mean, ultimately the inbound outbound distinction is kind of nebulous
Speaker:
00:26:39
because everything that an SDR does is outbound to some degree, you're
Speaker:
00:26:43
reaching out to persons for some cases, they, maybe they asked you to do it.
Speaker:
00:26:46
Some cases, maybe they're like.
Speaker:
00:26:49
More subtly asking you to do in other cases, they're not asking you at all.
Speaker:
00:26:52
So I think of it on a spectrum and I think of it as, yeah, you, you want to
Speaker:
00:26:57
separate those out because you're going to deal with them in very different ways.
Speaker:
00:27:00
If somebody comes in and requests a demo, it's the single most
Speaker:
00:27:03
important signal that you can have.
Speaker:
00:27:05
It converts it 30 to 40 percent to an opportunity.
Speaker:
00:27:09
So you have to put, you know, all of your focus on treating those people,
Speaker:
00:27:14
giving them the best experience.
Speaker:
00:27:15
Responding to them as quickly as possible, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker:
00:27:18
And then there'll be a range, you know, of other signals that some are not
Speaker:
00:27:23
important enough to deal with at all.
Speaker:
00:27:24
And some of them may be.
Speaker:
00:27:26
Are much harder and require more work, but because you're really targeting
Speaker:
00:27:29
the companies and they're much bigger, it's going to yield a bigger payoff.
Speaker:
00:27:32
So we're okay with investing more effort there.
Speaker:
00:27:34
So I definitely think about breaking it down.
Speaker:
00:27:37
And I definitely think like a mid market enterprise split in your team makes sense
Speaker:
00:27:41
because those are different conversations and you want, You want reps that have
Speaker:
00:27:46
the business savvy and the acumen to have enterprise level conversations
Speaker:
00:27:51
focused on, on the enterprise and penetrating those accounts and then more
Speaker:
00:27:54
of a high velocity of in market motion.
Speaker:
00:27:56
I think that's a different skill set and probably more of a ladder
Speaker:
00:27:59
in terms of career progression.
Speaker:
00:28:01
Is, are these signals or plays combined with ads or any type of other touch
Speaker:
00:28:08
points you basically add on top?
Speaker:
00:28:10
Yeah, yeah, no, I, I think, I think they can be and, and should be, can be combined
Speaker:
00:28:16
with ads, can be combined with marketing, like events, you know, ongoing events.
Speaker:
00:28:22
Yeah, like newsletters, like marketing newsletters, content, it's all, I'm not
Speaker:
00:28:27
suggesting you could, I think it's very impractical to like orchestrate it.
Speaker:
00:28:30
Like first we do like two ads and then we do a webinar, like, like something
Speaker:
00:28:34
like really, really sequenced, but I just think if you're surrounding them.
Speaker:
00:28:38
With with value and and appearing on the radar i think i go back to that user
Speaker:
00:28:42
gems example when i recently did a case study like internally of just like really
Speaker:
00:28:47
analyzing that sales cycle from my point of view because i thought it was really
Speaker:
00:28:50
really masterful shout out to chase who's the either that sold us that but
Speaker:
00:28:54
one of the reasons why i was responsive to his message in the first place was
Speaker:
00:28:58
i was really familiar with the brand.
Speaker:
00:29:00
You know and so we underestimate how much brand opens doors on the outbound side and
Speaker:
00:29:05
is the difference between like or oh you know this company is cool and they reached
Speaker:
00:29:10
out to me like that's kind of neat so it's it's all working together in other words.
Speaker:
00:29:16
Yeah and then one other question the anonymization i
Speaker:
00:29:20
probably pronounce that wrong.
Speaker:
00:29:23
But I hope everybody knows what I mean.
Speaker:
00:29:26
Like, and of course, I mean, you can do it kind of in the RB to B way.
Speaker:
00:29:30
Right.
Speaker:
00:29:31
Where, um, like, you know, it's, it's, it's not an opt in, which is for example,
Speaker:
00:29:36
in Europe, it's not possible, but then there's many other ways how you can
Speaker:
00:29:40
basically get an email address and try to, you know, understand who those users
Speaker:
00:29:44
are, how important do you think this is for, for this, for, for these plays?
Speaker:
00:29:50
I don't know.
Speaker:
00:29:50
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
Speaker:
00:29:52
It's I really, I really don't.
Speaker:
00:29:54
And that comes back to the experimentation.
Speaker:
00:29:55
Like we've had, you know, de anonymization for years.
Speaker:
00:29:59
From a first party perspective, if you have marketing automation, as
Speaker:
00:30:02
soon as somebody fills out a form, they are cookied and they are known
Speaker:
00:30:05
and every subsequent session in that browser, you know, you were going to
Speaker:
00:30:08
have that history of what they did.
Speaker:
00:30:10
And so that's been a part.
Speaker:
00:30:11
And then there's the company level de anonymization, which, you know,
Speaker:
00:30:14
people have mixed results with and the rb2b stuff, which is, which
Speaker:
00:30:18
is, you know, illegal in some countries and controversial, at
Speaker:
00:30:21
least in others from like a privacy and ethics point of view, I think.
Speaker:
00:30:25
My take on it just from not even alluding to any of those factors beyond
Speaker:
00:30:29
just what makes the most sense if you want the web stuff is to think of it
Speaker:
00:30:35
in terms of a waterfall the same way you do with data enrichment because no
Speaker:
00:30:38
one vendor is going to cover all your bases and I think back to the you know
Speaker:
00:30:42
tech evaluation I did I think warmly is clearly the strongest player there they
Speaker:
00:30:46
really focus on the de anonymization piece and they they do exactly that they
Speaker:
00:30:52
layer their own de anonymization they do.
Speaker:
00:30:54
Oh, we have success data.
Speaker:
00:30:55
They bring in our B to B.
Speaker:
00:30:57
And so they're very focused on, like, revealing to you the largest percentage
Speaker:
00:31:01
of your, your web traffic, whether that's right to do, whether that's right to
Speaker:
00:31:06
do for, you know, for either from an ethical perspective or from a, an efficacy
Speaker:
00:31:10
perspective, like, does it actually work because someone's on your website?
Speaker:
00:31:12
Are they going to be more responsive?
Speaker:
00:31:14
Like, yeah, maybe sometimes logically, if I'm like checking something out
Speaker:
00:31:18
and someone calls me, like, at least I know who you are, presumably, but
Speaker:
00:31:22
does it mean that you're ready to buy?
Speaker:
00:31:25
Probably not.
Speaker:
00:31:25
Like, I, I look at a million vendors all the time, like, just out of interest.
Speaker:
00:31:30
I see somebody post something.
Speaker:
00:31:31
I'm like, Oh, who are they?
Speaker:
00:31:32
Who do they work for?
Speaker:
00:31:33
I'm just like a tool junkie.
Speaker:
00:31:36
So I look at.
Speaker:
00:31:37
You know, I look at tech all day long.
Speaker:
00:31:38
It doesn't mean I'm going to buy anything or that I have budget
Speaker:
00:31:40
or, so I think it's one factor.
Speaker:
00:31:43
You know, if you see a big surge from a company, all sorts of
Speaker:
00:31:46
different people visiting your site, maybe that tells you something.
Speaker:
00:31:49
Does every, or I'll, I laughed at this meme for like days, but there's
Speaker:
00:31:54
a fellow named camel Rexton who runs a marketing dimension agency called
Speaker:
00:31:58
42 and posted, you know, the meme with The despicable me guy where he's
Speaker:
00:32:04
doing this presentation and he's like, you know, this and this and this.
Speaker:
00:32:08
And then he like looks like at the last slide and he's kind
Speaker:
00:32:10
of like, wait, wait a second.
Speaker:
00:32:11
So it was, it was about like, we're not going to do lead scoring.
Speaker:
00:32:14
We're going to focus on signals instead.
Speaker:
00:32:16
Signals like visits pricing page.
Speaker:
00:32:18
Then he's like, this is which is of course one of the things that
Speaker:
00:32:21
you always used in lead scoring.
Speaker:
00:32:22
So it's kind of.
Speaker:
00:32:23
Ultimately poking fun of the fact that we're sort of just coming
Speaker:
00:32:25
full circle back to where we started, um, with these, you know,
Speaker:
00:32:29
simplistic things and will they work?
Speaker:
00:32:32
Who knows?
Speaker:
00:32:32
I think that's why we need to experiment.
Speaker:
00:32:34
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:32:34
And, and like, like from a reverse perspective, right?
Speaker:
00:32:37
Like listening to all of this, like basically, I think, how do you actually
Speaker:
00:32:43
operate operationalize this then?
Speaker:
00:32:45
In your organization, how do you enable people to really do all the
Speaker:
00:32:49
experimentation like to a certain extent, but not too much because you still need
Speaker:
00:32:54
those like, you know, that that that base stuff that actually works that
Speaker:
00:32:57
foundational stuff that actually gives you all the revenue that you need to
Speaker:
00:33:01
keep things going, but also to continue to invest into experiments so you can
Speaker:
00:33:05
actually also be successful in the future and also plug all these tools together.
Speaker:
00:33:10
I mean, that that's in my mind, at least in sort of like the job of.
Speaker:
00:33:14
Yeah, wrap ups here to really make those decisions and, um, to orchestrate.
Speaker:
00:33:19
At
Speaker:
00:33:20
least that's a solvable problem.
Speaker:
00:33:21
Unlike, you know, finding out who's going to buy your stuff, which sometimes
Speaker:
00:33:25
doesn't feel like a solvable problem, but no, the, but it is a complex problem
Speaker:
00:33:29
and a hard one, so the things I would think about there, I don't think.
Speaker:
00:33:33
You should have reps kind of independently, unless you have very mature
Speaker:
00:33:37
sellers who have a knack, who have a talent for figuring those things out, then
Speaker:
00:33:41
maybe you, you do want them figuring out, trying their own experiments that you can
Speaker:
00:33:46
then scale out to the rest of the team.
Speaker:
00:33:47
But generally speaking, maybe you want to work with like the manager of
Speaker:
00:33:50
that team, maybe Dimension, maybe Ops.
Speaker:
00:33:52
So I think of almost like a council of like, all right, what are we going to try?
Speaker:
00:33:56
What ideas?
Speaker:
00:33:56
Oh, I saw this.
Speaker:
00:33:57
Let's try that.
Speaker:
00:33:58
Let's do this.
Speaker:
00:33:59
Deploying those as playbooks.
Speaker:
00:34:00
And then that gets locked down.
Speaker:
00:34:02
So you deploy those playbooks and you can think of like, you know, A screen
Speaker:
00:34:05
with like different buckets and each bucket is its own rules based segment.
Speaker:
00:34:09
So rip and replace could be like companies that are in this particular,
Speaker:
00:34:13
you know, above a certain size and these geographies and these verticals that we
Speaker:
00:34:17
believe are already using a competitor.
Speaker:
00:34:20
So we're going to approach them with this messaging and you.
Speaker:
00:34:22
link it up to a cadence and mad kudu's co pilot does a really good
Speaker:
00:34:25
job at that, uh, enabling that.
Speaker:
00:34:27
Now, how do those accounts or contacts wind up in those playbooks for the reps?
Speaker:
00:34:33
You know, that's all happening behind the scenes, but there's a
Speaker:
00:34:35
whole other process to do there.
Speaker:
00:34:38
Bringing a cat like six cents has the capability to bring accounts
Speaker:
00:34:41
into your CRM automatically.
Speaker:
00:34:43
Did not have good success with that.
Speaker:
00:34:44
They have improved some of their matching logic, but the big issue is
Speaker:
00:34:47
like creating duplicate accounts or that their, their data wasn't that great.
Speaker:
00:34:51
So you brought an account that like has been closed, you know,
Speaker:
00:34:55
shut down for many years, like just stuff like that, roughly speaking.
Speaker:
00:34:59
So our approach, I think is going to be like, let's build out our TAM.
Speaker:
00:35:03
Already in Sierra, like do we've done this sort of a few times over
Speaker:
00:35:07
the years, like do a big load from zoom info, build it out, clean it up.
Speaker:
00:35:10
We use ringly zoom infos ring leader with I think they call it operations OS now
Speaker:
00:35:14
to to dedupe and do that sort of stuff.
Speaker:
00:35:16
So get that nice and clean.
Speaker:
00:35:18
So you've got your accounts identify when those accounts are
Speaker:
00:35:22
ready to fall into those playbooks.
Speaker:
00:35:24
And maybe they're not assigned to anyone yet.
Speaker:
00:35:26
So the way I'm thinking of that is you might have like a Operational version
Speaker:
00:35:30
of each playbook that is just looking for accounts that meet those criteria,
Speaker:
00:35:33
but isn't assigned and then based on that you can have an automatic.
Speaker:
00:35:37
Workflow.
Speaker:
00:35:38
So basically essentially when an account matches that playbook, it can
Speaker:
00:35:41
trigger a zap or a ricotta recipe or a tray rest, whatever, whatever tool
Speaker:
00:35:46
of your choice that then can kick off the assignment workflow, which for
Speaker:
00:35:50
us, we use a tool called distribution engine, which I love they're fantastic
Speaker:
00:35:54
and they can assign accounts.
Speaker:
00:35:55
So it can basically just like update a data value that triggers the account to be
Speaker:
00:35:59
routed account can be routed to the rep.
Speaker:
00:36:01
And then it will appear in their version of the playbook.
Speaker:
00:36:04
So it's all ready to go.
Speaker:
00:36:05
And then the contact sourcing, like you can automate some of that too.
Speaker:
00:36:07
So like, these are the titles we look at, go and do that.
Speaker:
00:36:10
I generally so far prefer the reps to do that, to be a bit more thoughtful,
Speaker:
00:36:14
to be a bit more researched.
Speaker:
00:36:16
I think, you know, unless you're really high volume, low ACV and you just need to
Speaker:
00:36:20
do it at scale, then that's more like you might as well just have a growth engineer
Speaker:
00:36:24
doing that in clay and be doing the.
Speaker:
00:36:26
You know, the AISDR thing and just having them do that.
Speaker:
00:36:29
And then you'll probably burn out your TAM and it'll probably stop working.
Speaker:
00:36:32
Um, if you, if you're not really good at it.
Speaker:
00:36:35
Um, but, but so having the reps be a bit more thoughtful.
Speaker:
00:36:38
Yeah, that's, that's it.
Speaker:
00:36:39
So you can see that's like a lot of, a lot of steps, but I think that people don't
Speaker:
00:36:43
really think about what goes into that.
Speaker:
00:36:44
If you want to avoid spreadsheet hell and I do, I think something, you know,
Speaker:
00:36:48
some variant of that is what's required.
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00:36:50
And then the reps select the contacts and then you basically have specific
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00:36:56
signals against those contacts or how I
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00:36:59
think at that point, like the, they, they have been pulled into a specific playbook.
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00:37:02
So it could also be like a contact based playbook or a lead based playbook.
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00:37:06
There's both flavors.
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00:37:08
Um, but you could, let's take a very simple one, close one opportunity showing.
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00:37:14
Interest again, or being active on your website.
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00:37:16
So you had an opportunity, it was closed last and all of a sudden that
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00:37:19
company's like back on your site.
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00:37:20
So maybe they're revisiting their options and that's one that, you know,
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00:37:25
from some feedback in the market, a lot of companies see success with.
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00:37:28
So in that case, you kind of know the company, maybe you already
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00:37:31
have the contacts, maybe you don't, but it's like very tactical.
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00:37:34
And but it's also not scalable.
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00:37:36
You're sort of just like if a fish pops up in that spot, like you can try to
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00:37:40
scoop it up in a net, but you can't control how many fish pop up there.
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00:37:44
So it can be a component of your strategy, but not the whole thing.
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00:37:48
I sort of think of it as like a portfolio approach, like an investment portfolio.
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00:37:52
You want to diversify your portfolio rather than be like, all right,
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00:37:57
this is, we just go all in on.
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00:37:59
This is pricing page signals and that's it
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00:38:02
i think this was also what philip alluded to earlier right you want to
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00:38:04
have a few place that just work that are always on right this could be one
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00:38:10
obviously demo bookings one right like there's like a bunch of place that
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00:38:13
are like super high intent and most likely in market accounts and then you
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00:38:18
basically go down down down down down and uh and yeah super super interesting.
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00:38:25
Phillip, where do we go from here?
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00:38:28
I think, firstly, I think this is the perfect moment to end.
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00:38:31
Uh, like we talked about so much stuff and I hope that the people who listen
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00:38:36
to this are now inspired to go and build their own outbound motions in
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00:38:40
the way that also Justin is thinking about it, which I think is fascinating.
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00:38:44
Like the way you structured it and the way you framed everything and
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00:38:48
sort of like how you think about how to build these processes.
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00:38:51
I think that's That's a really good way to get inspired.
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00:38:54
And, and I, and I think you did that today, the audience, at
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00:38:57
least that's what I'm hoping for.
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00:38:59
Um, we always have one final question to ask our guests.
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00:39:02
And that is like, what is a book that you would recommend to our listeners?
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00:39:07
So right now I'm working my way through revenue architecture by Yakov Vendikoy.
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00:39:12
Uh, winning by design.
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00:39:14
It's a big, it's a big, it's kind of like a textbook thickness and,
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00:39:17
uh, and weight hardcover book.
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00:39:19
But yeah, I think he's, he's been on my show before he's, you know, anyone who's
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00:39:23
heard him speak knows he's a special kind of guy and it's been really interesting.
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00:39:26
So I'd recommend folks to check that out.
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00:39:29
Next time I'm asking this question, I will ask what book
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00:39:32
other than Revenue Architecture do you recommend to our audience?
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00:39:34
Not everyone, but it's a great book.
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00:39:38
It's a great book.
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00:39:39
I actually
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00:39:39
have it, so you know.
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00:39:42
Yeah, you know where it is.
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00:39:43
I'll think of one other one.
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00:39:45
That isn't revenue architecture, it's more business than, than go to market,
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00:39:49
but the hard thing about hard things by Ben Horowitz, my boss got that
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00:39:53
for, uh, our team, uh, the beginning of last year and, and yeah, that
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00:39:57
was really more just about like what goes into starting a company and the.
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00:40:02
Grit and determination that is needed to succeed with it.
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00:40:05
I thought it was super interesting.
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00:40:07
Fully agree.
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00:40:08
Love that book as well.
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00:40:10
Revenue architecture as well.
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00:40:12
I've been thinking of, you know, I don't know if you know, the John Henderson
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00:40:16
meme where I think three girls sit in the car and say, Hey, let's do this.
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00:40:19
Let's buy tools.
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00:40:21
Anyways, you know, like I've been thinking about this for so long.
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00:40:25
I think we'll add it to the show notes.
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00:40:27
I think it fits very well because I think everybody listening to this show is going
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00:40:31
to be like, Hey, let's buy some tools now.
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00:40:33
So it's good that we're going to release it still this year.
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00:40:36
So you can budget
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00:40:37
that in for next year.
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00:40:38
But no, honestly, so much.
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00:40:40
I learned a ton.
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00:40:41
This was fascinating.
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00:40:42
So good.
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00:40:43
I hope we can actually use some of that here at Weflow and yeah,
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00:40:48
I really appreciate you coming on and sharing this with our audience.
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00:40:51
Thanks for the chat guys.
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00:40:52
It was a lot of fun.
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00:40:54
Oh, thank you.
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00:40:56
Thank you very much for listening to this episode of the RevOpsLab podcast.
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00:41:00
Please consider to like and subscribe our show and give us a five star
Speaker:
00:41:04
rating on wherever you're listening.
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00:41:06
If you have feedback or suggestions, let us know at podcast.
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00:41:10
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00:41:11
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00:41:14
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