speaker-0: Welcome to Inner Work, the podcast on workplace mental health and well-being. Inner work is the practice of mastering your thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and actions so you can create a more harmonious and joyous life. I'm your host, Susanna Scherberg. Press pause on the noise and tune in. So my guest today is Michael Allison, a performance and leadership coach who spent decades working with elite athletes and teams across the ATP, the WTA, MLB, the NBA, and beyond. And who has become one of the leading voices in how we perform under pressure. So he's the creator of Autonomic Agility, the Play Zone. He's also an educational partner with the Polyvegel Institute. And you may know his psychology today, Colin. And his book, The Performance Code, The New Science of Achieving Under Pressure, is out in early two thousand and twenty seven. So Michael, it's really great to have you here. Welcome. You spent years coaching elite athletes. That was how you started. And then somewhere along the line things changed with the polyvagal theory. What happened?
speaker-1: Originally I was actually helping athletes and general population with movement, exercise, the physical training behind high performing. And then that morphed into nutrition and behavior science in a way trying to create the lifestyle, the practices, the training, the rituals that would allow higher performance, but really from the physical angle. That was really what it was grounded in. And it was grounded in external things or things that we did, behaviors. And when I discovered polybagal theory, what that did is it helped me really understand why those things worked, what they were actually doing to the physiology, not just the physical capacity, but the underlying physiology, how the heart was beating, how the body was breathing, how much muscle tension we were carrying, those sorts of things. And So it reframed what I was doing, why I was doing it. And it helped me understand kind of what we're really after from the standpoint of performance. Where we can become really skilled at shooting a free throw or swinging the golf club. We can become highly, highly skilled at articulating in a business meeting or something what we want to say, right? Or on stage, really performing the range of our voice. And then when the pressure comes. All of sudden we're like, ⁓ what just happened? And so we tend to then practice harder. We tend to refine our skill set more. And and those are all really helpful. But underneath all of that, what polyvagal theory helped me understand, it was really the basis for how we performed, whether or not it matched our potential or our skill set or our intention was our physiological state in that moment. What was actually going on beneath all of that? So it framed and reframed everything for me. And it was a game changer.
speaker-0: has been my experience as well. When you understand that it's not in your mind, it is actually in your body. That shifts everything. So you have been drawing a distinction between achieving from a state of safety versus trying to achieve a way into safety. So what's the difference? I mean, what is this notion of safety?
speaker-1: So we can use another word other than safety. We can say feeling competent or feeling confident, feeling already enough as I am, and I'm now just expressing my authentic self. We don't have to use the word I feel safe. That doesn't resonate with everyone. It might be competent and just ready to go versus I'm trying to achieve or acquire that feeling. So polyvagal theory helped me sort of see was am I motivated and inspired and getting up every day and grinding and driving because I'm trying to acquire something, whether it's money, power, status, knowledge, influence, whatever that is, if I'm really reaching for all of that, but that's coming out of a state of not enoughness, of fear, of fear of missing out, fear of falling behind, of I need to prove I'm worthy, right? Like I need to acquire this so I feel more secure. All of those things. That just tells me that that's coming out of a state of protection. I call it a pattern of protection. It's some state of not enoughness. And can we begin to find a way to reassure our body, our nervous system, those very primitive survival networks, that I actually am enough, that now I can go after my dreams, I can pursue my goals. I can even go where I'm not comfortable. But it's no longer grounded in this, I need to acquire something. It's actually grounded in I here it is, and here I'm going to express this. And that is a huge shift. And that shift is more than psychological. There is a psychological component. We can help reframe challenge in that way, but it's really rooted in the physiology. And the psychology has an impact on that, but it's really trying to find the ways to bring our physiology, bring our nervous system into already a sense of okayness. So that we can reach and achieve.
speaker-0: And it's interesting that you cannot think yourself safe or competent. You cannot force yourself with your psychology.
speaker-1: And you can set the intention, which I think are really helpful, but it often isn't enough. If it was enough, then we would all be there. We're like, of course, right? Like the top performers all know, ⁓ if I could just relax and enjoy this, it would be better. Like they all know that, right? Like they get it. They've told themselves a many times how many of their coaches have said, Hey, just go out and have fun. And they're like, Yeah, but my whole everything is built on this. We know that the psychology only goes so far. So To me, it's what other ways can we start to reassure the nervous system? And that's not necessarily easy. And I would also say we've become these vigilant high achievers going after a lot and it's never enough for very good reason. I mean, we're in this culture, it's highly competitive, it's constantly comparing us. We're comparing ourselves to others, others are comparing us to them. We're constantly being evaluated and it's changing all the time. So of course we feel unsettled. Of course we feel like we aren't really enough because it's keeps moving. It's going so fast. And I would say it's going faster than than ever before. The change is faster. I think what we're expecting ourselves or being expected to achieve keeps going up. How we're comparing each other is off the charts. Right now we can see it everywhere we look. Being human is more and more challenging because of the technology, because of AI, because of social media, because of all of that. It just keeps layering on more evaluation, more comparison, more rapid change, more uncertainty, and more of this feeling that it really is emerging out of a body that's becoming more and more vigilant and needing to achieve, or one that withdraws and is overwhelmed.
speaker-0: it's interesting that you're describing is also happening really a lot in the environment where I work, where people have gone through significant layoffs. So that comparison, am I going to keep my job? Am I going to lose my job? How do I keep my job? All of those things, it's a constant and it's
speaker-1: Real. Let's honestly acknowledge and respect that from these very primitive survival networks that we all share, life is really, really challenging and in its own way, dangerous, risky, unsafe, and it's hard to know who to trust. But the way I see it is we have to honor our biological need and quest to find a way to feel safe, to find a way to trust others. If we want to have a healthy life, if we want to feel any sense of contentment and fulfillment, then we have to find the ways the biology feels safe, connected to others. And it doesn't mean we have to be connected to everyone and everything, but we have to start wherever we can feel some sense of trust and connection.
speaker-0: And that connection is the one thing that I think we are missing the most.
speaker-1: Yeah. I wrote an article for psychology today. And it's all about there is an I in team. In other words, even in a team, we have to find a way to meet each individual's needs, their values. And what is their vision outside of the function of the team? So in sports, it's like, yeah, we're here to win. In business, we're here to win. Like it's the same thing. Okay. So win might be we sell more product, we have an innovation. Win might be we win the trophy, right? So Winning is fine. There's nothing wrong with winning. There's nothing wrong with competing. It's just that we've gotten so far out of balance that everything feels like competition. And we celebrate the athletes or even the business people who didn't let anybody or anything stand in their way. And at the end of the day, even if they're all alone, they're the champion. And we we glorify that. The Michael Jordans of the world.
speaker-0: It's interesting, we had ⁓ somebody present a session on parental burnout. And I know that you've written a book about parenting in this space, but the relentlessness of, for example, being a parent at the moment. You have to be perfect in every way. And being you know, the perfect mother and I mean, it's just impossible to be that.
speaker-1: Yeah, and it's a race to nowhere, ⁓ other than complete burnout, like you said, collapse, giving up. But see, that to me is what we're all on in one way or another. We're on this race to the end, which is implosion or putting our head in the sand. What I think we're doing is we're doing our part to find ways that help the biology get what it's really after so that we can connect. Someone listening might go, Yeah, I I would love to have more friends. I would love to relax a little bit and just sit and listen to the birds and swing on my hammock. I'd love that. But I just can't. Or even if I do, I can't sit there for very long. And that actually is very normal. That's because the physiology, the nervous system, is locked in that state of protection for very good reason. So we have to just do whatever we can to start reassuring it. Like, hey, you can slow down. But I
speaker-0: Think that there's something to be said about different cultures. You know, this it's relentless around the world, but nowhere is it as relentless as in the US. It competitions in China, you have competition in India, but still there's an edge to the American culture that's actually quite shocking to most of us Europeans, because we are not used to that. We still have a little bit of space for having a holiday and turning the phone off and having a weekend and it doesn't always seem to be the case with American colleagues. And this is not to bash any culture, but just to recognize that there are these differences and and something that has become normalized.
speaker-1: Is only normal here, right? And I long to be more European and for that reason where you actually see families and you see grandparents, parents, and children all living in the same complex are all living very close. And that's very rare here. And that's partly again because it takes so much resource just to stay in the game here. It takes so much. achieving in order to even feel like you're in the game. So that's the big part of it. You don't have the time. You don't have the resources already built in that allow you to turn your phone off and take a weekend. No one in our country or very few people will take three weeks on a vacation or a month.
speaker-0: It's also something that we learn. We learn these cultural things. What is okay in going back to safety, no? Is it safe to or is it okay to take time off? Is it okay to be just lounging, having a drink in the sun? Are you lazy? And that's again a cultural messaging. Not to get into too much multicultural conversation here, but it's it's something to think about and also to cherish. Because we sometimes forget we can complain about the situation that we are in. without realizing that there are all of these great things that are actually available for us.
speaker-1: So for those who are high achievers and high performers and it's really hard to take time off, and I'm one of them. So what do you do? Well, a tennis player who I work with, very high level, very highly ranked, he has realized that that's really hard for him. But he now understands how vital that is. So what did he do? He literally took himself out of the environment where he could not practice tennis. So that's another approach, right? Like so Move yourself into an environment where the only thing you really can do is nothing. Essentially. So that is where we can use what I where the world I came from, which was really behavior science and orchestrating the environment to support shifts in your physiology. So you can do that from this perspective. You can say, okay, I get that it's really important to slow down, but I can't at my house. It's okay. So where can I? What environment might make that easier for that to occur and get ahead of it if you can and frame it in your mind that it's vital for performance. It's not even about just not doing anything, it's literally buffering me from the stress and the challenge and allowing me to achieve more without being as disruptive ultimately.
speaker-0: And I think that's one thing that we have learned from sports in the business world. High level athletes, they do take breaks. They understand that recovery has to be part of the training. You can't just be on, on, on. And ⁓ in the business world, unfortunately, that is really not the case. And a lot of high achievers go until they deplete their system to a degree where an illness or something else stops them. ⁓ and it's an unfortunate phenomenon and I'm seeing more and more of that. But on a more positive note
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah.
speaker-0: You talk about play as well and that sounds like the opposite of serious performance, but why play and how can you get to that?
speaker-1: to polyvagal theory and all of that, what I quickly realized, which we all know, is when we've been at our best, whether it's in a conversation with somebody, whether it's on center court, wherever it is, are you fighting for your life? Or is it actually kind of free, interesting? Are you curious? Like, are you connected? Are you feeling competent? You're focused, but you're also somewhat relaxed. That's play. Okay. It's actually a physiological state. And so I coined the word Or the phrase the play zone, which is partly the flow state, right? So we've all heard of the flow state or being in the zone. And that is a smaller part of the play zone. Those are still a state of play. So the state of play or the play zone, physiologically, what it means is there's some metabolic output. There's an elevation in heart rate, breathing, mental effort, maybe even movement. Doesn't have to be movement. You could just have mental effort. So there's some elevation in energy output. But at the same time, there's still rhythm. There's rhythm in the heart rate going up and down with breath. There's rhythm in the movement. There's rhythm in the engagement. It's not just like a runaway train locked down and heart rate just keeps going up. And there's also really importantly in play, there's connection. And that connection could be to the audience if you're performing, could be to your Teammates, if you're playing a team sport, it could be just to a higher purpose, could be meaning, the why, all of that. But there's some connection to purpose, something bigger, others in the moment. So you have this elevation in energy, but there's an underlying rhythm. And technically, that rhythm is this ventral branch of the vagus turning on and off and regulating the sympathetic nervous system, but also the whole. metabolic output, the way the organs are functioning, the level of muscle tension through the body, all of that. And providing access to the higher parts of the brain for creativity, for problem solving, for collaborating, and this connection. So play doesn't have to be silly goofy. It's it can be very focused, but there's still this capacity for connection and still this rhythm to the output.
speaker-0: When speak about rhythm, and I know that you also written about music and rhythm, is that also part of it?
speaker-1: Can be. Like Michael Phelps would always listen to music. And a lot of the top achievers will come out and listening to music before they do their thing. And whether they're doing it consciously or not, they're using the rhythm, the tempo, the phrasing in the music to prepare their physiology for their event. And so some people really are already in a very anxious, nervous body in anticipation. And so they might use music that's a little more soothing. They might, or they might match it and use really hip-hopy upbeat music or even really kind of aggressive, kind of abrasive music and channel it more into fight energy. So you see it being done, whether it's deliberate or not, but it can be a very powerful resource to move the body into different rhythms or to disrupt the rhythms and move you into different states. So it's very, very powerful.
speaker-0: Yeah, there's more and more research around the power of music in our ability to regulate ourselves. It's great for workshop, for example. I mean, it creates a different environment when you start with rhythm and dancing together. But I want to go back into that play zone. So that's it sounds like it's such a desirable state for most of us. Ideally, we would all want to be in the play zone all the time. Well, probably it's not possible to be there all the time, but how do you get there? Most of the time or when it actually matters.
speaker-1: We'll go one step back and then that'll lead into that. So typically when we're under pressure, the body begins to prepare. We call that nerves or we call that anxiety. We give it a label, but it's the body preparing for the uncertainty of what's going to occur. Some people, there's so much anticipation and there's so much uncertainty that they actually then move further into collapse or withdrawal or numbness, and they might even detach. And so those are typically not. The business leaders, what we tend to see in our culture of high achieving is people that for whatever reason, they have that first response where going into something that's uncertain, they start mobilizing resources, they get nervous, they get anxious, but they're not tipping all the way into some sense of overwhelm. So that's part one. Part two is often the highest achievers in this culture, what I call the fight culture, are the strongest fighters, the most resilient. And gritty and tough, who can take that nervous energy and instead of getting defensive and playing it safe, they get loud and aggressive and attack and they fight. And in sports, put the game face on. Well, what's the game face? The game face is tense. I'm not looking around at anybody or anything. You're either coming with me or get the hell out of my way. That's the game face. That's the approach. That's the paradigm. That's the US culture.
speaker-0: So the MMA.
speaker-1: Yes, that's it. Well, that's why people love the MMA because it matches them. It gets them into that zone where it's like this is it, I'm powerful. And you can be powerful. Even a business team, all in this state of fight, can really accomplish a lot because it's very clear. It's like, this is what we're going after. We're either going to go after this target or we're going to go after this vulnerability in our opponent. And this is what we're doing. And I've got your back, you've got my back. Here we go. And when things get tough, We just get even more intense and we fight and fight and fight harder. However, there's even a higher level, and that's this play zone. Why is it higher? Well, because it's more sustainable. There are these rhythms, and we know biologically those rhythms allow recovery. So it means we can go longer. We have access to higher cortical areas. We have access to social connections. So we can work together as a team. We have what's called team chemistry. That is the spoken and unspoken connection that we have. So we also know that this play zone is higher level. It is optimal. Part of it is that flow state, that being in the zone is not in a state of fight. It's in a state of play. It's in the play zone. So I look at this as a performance hierarchy, which I know you're familiar with. So to me, what we talked about when there's pressure, those of us that move into this collapse, overwhelm, numbness, withdrawal. We're at the bottom of the performance hierarchy when it's a performance-based culture, like business, like academics, like life. So those of us that withdraw and retreat, and I have many times withdrawn and retreat, we all have that capacity. It's actually a self-protective mechanism. It's the body conserving what's left to keep us alive. But those of us that that is more of our pattern, we don't get very far in that culture. I put that at the bottom of the period. Those of us that feel the nerves and the anxiety and all of that in anticipation of putting ourselves out there. And we feel that, but we still go, we still do it, but we play it safe. I call that the flight zone. And that's higher performing than the withdrawal, but it's still lower performing than the next tier up is fight. The fighters are higher performing than the defenders, the protectors. But above that is play, the play zone. They're the leaders. Who can actually meet each teammate, team player, wherever they are, and start to lift them. And maybe they bring someone who's in collapse and shutdown. Maybe they mobilize them and they're playing defense, but at least they're in the game. Maybe they take the defenders and they help them fight. And maybe they take the fighters and they start giving them enough connection that they can soften just enough that now they can become play. They can move into the play zone. So I look at them as steps. And some people can follow the steps in order. Sometimes you can skip a step. It doesn't matter. But to me, it's just a model for seeing how we can use these other states and use their advantages.
speaker-0: This is a really powerful one. It brings something really important to this discussion, which is that when you have that leader who has that ability to regulate their nervous system or who are in the play zone, the power of that leader in rallying others behind them, it's often not the words. It can be very, you know, people can be inspirational, other, but it's it's the energy. The vibe is very real and it's chemistry. And it's physiology and people do get it. And if only more leaders would understand this, that this is the place from where you lead.
speaker-1: Yeah. And sometimes it means you're rallying the troops to fight. Sometimes that's what needs to be done. But that isn't the ultimate goal. To me, that's the stepping stone to the ultimate goal, which how do we connect? How do we collaborate? How do we play together? And we're not doing this out of fear, but we're actually doing this out of an expression of each of our best versions. And the next level is when you're able to do that and you see the opposing team. As the opportunity to elevate. So they're no longer the enemy or the obstacle. They're actually the opportunity, right? And we see that in men's tennis with Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Center. They are modeling what I'm talking about. They're elevating each other. They are not looking at each other as enemies. They're looking at each other as actually allies, lifting their games, making each other focus more on their own vulnerabilities. So when they play each other, they aren't. vulnerable and exposed and they they're so respectful and they're both getting better because of it.
speaker-0: Example. Absolutely fantastic. Were Federer and Nadal as well? Was it the same?
speaker-1: Not in the beginning. They got there at the end of their careers when Fed really started accepting that he had to do something different or Nadal was just going to attack his backhand. And their early years, it was not that. But I wouldn't say they had the same level of elevating each other in the heat of the competition that you see with Sinner and Alcaraz. The Nuna Dahl special on Netflix. It's well worth watching. You know, and the same with Djokovic. I'd say they they all have this mutual respect. And they certainly were training in a way that they could play each other better. But this is next level. What I'm seeing with Cinner and Alcarez is like next level. It's really unique, but it's awesome. ⁓ they're actually the storyline through the book that I'll have coming out next year, it's all about all of this. And the storyline through is following Alcaraz and center with Djokovic wrapped up in there too, 'cause to me he's made this transition as well.
speaker-0: And you've been writing about him in your psychology today articles. So if anybody's interested, just go and check them out. So the your book, The Performance Code, is is going to be published in two thousand and twenty seven. So you already gave something out. So we have a we have a teaser.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. So if you're into sports as a metaphor and if you consider yourself a high achiever or someone who's looking to perform under pressure, this is an approach grounded in everything that you and I talked about today.
speaker-0: And it's called the performance code. I look very much forward to reading it. Michael, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you here. If somebody tries just one thing from this conversation this week, what would you want it to be?
speaker-1: First off, just recognize wherever you are, wherever you are. Just be honest with yourself about am I really striving and trying to achieve and perform or whatever it is because I'm trying to grab something that I don't have. Just be honest with yourself. Just start with whatever that is. And okay, so let's say it is. Why? Well, it doesn't matter why. We all have a reason why, but let's just first be honest. with what's really driving the achievement.
speaker-0: Sometimes I did the ma mental health utilization of these things can actually get in the way. You don't always need to know the why.
speaker-1: You don't need to know the why, but just acknowledge where you are, what state you're in that's driving that. And if it is coming out of not enoughness, okay. Now what else can coexist that can start to maybe soften the edge around that, that can start to at least refill you in ways that aren't based on performance?
speaker-0: Thank you. It was really great to have you as a guest and I hope that we can continue these conversations.
speaker-1: Anytime. Thank you, Susanna.
speaker-0: That's all for this episode of Inner Work. If this conversation resonated with you, subscribe wherever you listen and pass it along to someone who could use it. Remember, small shifts inside create big changes out there. Until next time, keep doing the inner work.
speaker-1: Originally I was actually helping athletes and general population with movement, exercise, the physical training behind high performing. And then that morphed into nutrition and behavior science in a way trying to create the lifestyle, the practices, the training, the rituals that would allow higher performance, but really from the physical angle. That was really what it was grounded in. And it was grounded in external things or things that we did, behaviors. And when I discovered polybagal theory, what that did is it helped me really understand why those things worked, what they were actually doing to the physiology, not just the physical capacity, but the underlying physiology, how the heart was beating, how the body was breathing, how much muscle tension we were carrying, those sorts of things. And So it reframed what I was doing, why I was doing it. And it helped me understand kind of what we're really after from the standpoint of performance. Where we can become really skilled at shooting a free throw or swinging the golf club. We can become highly, highly skilled at articulating in a business meeting or something what we want to say, right? Or on stage, really performing the range of our voice. And then when the pressure comes. All of sudden we're like, ⁓ what just happened? And so we tend to then practice harder. We tend to refine our skill set more. And and those are all really helpful. But underneath all of that, what polyvagal theory helped me understand, it was really the basis for how we performed, whether or not it matched our potential or our skill set or our intention was our physiological state in that moment. What was actually going on beneath all of that? So it framed and reframed everything for me. And it was a game changer.
speaker-0: has been my experience as well. When you understand that it's not in your mind, it is actually in your body. That shifts everything. So you have been drawing a distinction between achieving from a state of safety versus trying to achieve a way into safety. So what's the difference? I mean, what is this notion of safety?
speaker-1: So we can use another word other than safety. We can say feeling competent or feeling confident, feeling already enough as I am, and I'm now just expressing my authentic self. We don't have to use the word I feel safe. That doesn't resonate with everyone. It might be competent and just ready to go versus I'm trying to achieve or acquire that feeling. So polyvagal theory helped me sort of see was am I motivated and inspired and getting up every day and grinding and driving because I'm trying to acquire something, whether it's money, power, status, knowledge, influence, whatever that is, if I'm really reaching for all of that, but that's coming out of a state of not enoughness, of fear, of fear of missing out, fear of falling behind, of I need to prove I'm worthy, right? Like I need to acquire this so I feel more secure. All of those things. That just tells me that that's coming out of a state of protection. I call it a pattern of protection. It's some state of not enoughness. And can we begin to find a way to reassure our body, our nervous system, those very primitive survival networks, that I actually am enough, that now I can go after my dreams, I can pursue my goals. I can even go where I'm not comfortable. But it's no longer grounded in this, I need to acquire something. It's actually grounded in I here it is, and here I'm going to express this. And that is a huge shift. And that shift is more than psychological. There is a psychological component. We can help reframe challenge in that way, but it's really rooted in the physiology. And the psychology has an impact on that, but it's really trying to find the ways to bring our physiology, bring our nervous system into already a sense of okayness. So that we can reach and achieve.
speaker-0: And it's interesting that you cannot think yourself safe or competent. You cannot force yourself with your psychology.
speaker-1: And you can set the intention, which I think are really helpful, but it often isn't enough. If it was enough, then we would all be there. We're like, of course, right? Like the top performers all know, ⁓ if I could just relax and enjoy this, it would be better. Like they all know that, right? Like they get it. They've told themselves a many times how many of their coaches have said, Hey, just go out and have fun. And they're like, Yeah, but my whole everything is built on this. We know that the psychology only goes so far. So To me, it's what other ways can we start to reassure the nervous system? And that's not necessarily easy. And I would also say we've become these vigilant high achievers going after a lot and it's never enough for very good reason. I mean, we're in this culture, it's highly competitive, it's constantly comparing us. We're comparing ourselves to others, others are comparing us to them. We're constantly being evaluated and it's changing all the time. So of course we feel unsettled. Of course we feel like we aren't really enough because it's keeps moving. It's going so fast. And I would say it's going faster than than ever before. The change is faster. I think what we're expecting ourselves or being expected to achieve keeps going up. How we're comparing each other is off the charts. Right now we can see it everywhere we look. Being human is more and more challenging because of the technology, because of AI, because of social media, because of all of that. It just keeps layering on more evaluation, more comparison, more rapid change, more uncertainty, and more of this feeling that it really is emerging out of a body that's becoming more and more vigilant and needing to achieve, or one that withdraws and is overwhelmed.
speaker-0: it's interesting that you're describing is also happening really a lot in the environment where I work, where people have gone through significant layoffs. So that comparison, am I going to keep my job? Am I going to lose my job? How do I keep my job? All of those things, it's a constant and it's
speaker-1: Real. Let's honestly acknowledge and respect that from these very primitive survival networks that we all share, life is really, really challenging and in its own way, dangerous, risky, unsafe, and it's hard to know who to trust. But the way I see it is we have to honor our biological need and quest to find a way to feel safe, to find a way to trust others. If we want to have a healthy life, if we want to feel any sense of contentment and fulfillment, then we have to find the ways the biology feels safe, connected to others. And it doesn't mean we have to be connected to everyone and everything, but we have to start wherever we can feel some sense of trust and connection.
speaker-0: And that connection is the one thing that I think we are missing the most.
speaker-1: Yeah. I wrote an article for psychology today. And it's all about there is an I in team. In other words, even in a team, we have to find a way to meet each individual's needs, their values. And what is their vision outside of the function of the team? So in sports, it's like, yeah, we're here to win. In business, we're here to win. Like it's the same thing. Okay. So win might be we sell more product, we have an innovation. Win might be we win the trophy, right? So Winning is fine. There's nothing wrong with winning. There's nothing wrong with competing. It's just that we've gotten so far out of balance that everything feels like competition. And we celebrate the athletes or even the business people who didn't let anybody or anything stand in their way. And at the end of the day, even if they're all alone, they're the champion. And we we glorify that. The Michael Jordans of the world.
speaker-0: It's interesting, we had ⁓ somebody present a session on parental burnout. And I know that you've written a book about parenting in this space, but the relentlessness of, for example, being a parent at the moment. You have to be perfect in every way. And being you know, the perfect mother and I mean, it's just impossible to be that.
speaker-1: Yeah, and it's a race to nowhere, ⁓ other than complete burnout, like you said, collapse, giving up. But see, that to me is what we're all on in one way or another. We're on this race to the end, which is implosion or putting our head in the sand. What I think we're doing is we're doing our part to find ways that help the biology get what it's really after so that we can connect. Someone listening might go, Yeah, I I would love to have more friends. I would love to relax a little bit and just sit and listen to the birds and swing on my hammock. I'd love that. But I just can't. Or even if I do, I can't sit there for very long. And that actually is very normal. That's because the physiology, the nervous system, is locked in that state of protection for very good reason. So we have to just do whatever we can to start reassuring it. Like, hey, you can slow down. But I
speaker-0: Think that there's something to be said about different cultures. You know, this it's relentless around the world, but nowhere is it as relentless as in the US. It competitions in China, you have competition in India, but still there's an edge to the American culture that's actually quite shocking to most of us Europeans, because we are not used to that. We still have a little bit of space for having a holiday and turning the phone off and having a weekend and it doesn't always seem to be the case with American colleagues. And this is not to bash any culture, but just to recognize that there are these differences and and something that has become normalized.
speaker-1: Is only normal here, right? And I long to be more European and for that reason where you actually see families and you see grandparents, parents, and children all living in the same complex are all living very close. And that's very rare here. And that's partly again because it takes so much resource just to stay in the game here. It takes so much. achieving in order to even feel like you're in the game. So that's the big part of it. You don't have the time. You don't have the resources already built in that allow you to turn your phone off and take a weekend. No one in our country or very few people will take three weeks on a vacation or a month.
speaker-0: It's also something that we learn. We learn these cultural things. What is okay in going back to safety, no? Is it safe to or is it okay to take time off? Is it okay to be just lounging, having a drink in the sun? Are you lazy? And that's again a cultural messaging. Not to get into too much multicultural conversation here, but it's it's something to think about and also to cherish. Because we sometimes forget we can complain about the situation that we are in. without realizing that there are all of these great things that are actually available for us.
speaker-1: So for those who are high achievers and high performers and it's really hard to take time off, and I'm one of them. So what do you do? Well, a tennis player who I work with, very high level, very highly ranked, he has realized that that's really hard for him. But he now understands how vital that is. So what did he do? He literally took himself out of the environment where he could not practice tennis. So that's another approach, right? Like so Move yourself into an environment where the only thing you really can do is nothing. Essentially. So that is where we can use what I where the world I came from, which was really behavior science and orchestrating the environment to support shifts in your physiology. So you can do that from this perspective. You can say, okay, I get that it's really important to slow down, but I can't at my house. It's okay. So where can I? What environment might make that easier for that to occur and get ahead of it if you can and frame it in your mind that it's vital for performance. It's not even about just not doing anything, it's literally buffering me from the stress and the challenge and allowing me to achieve more without being as disruptive ultimately.
speaker-0: And I think that's one thing that we have learned from sports in the business world. High level athletes, they do take breaks. They understand that recovery has to be part of the training. You can't just be on, on, on. And ⁓ in the business world, unfortunately, that is really not the case. And a lot of high achievers go until they deplete their system to a degree where an illness or something else stops them. ⁓ and it's an unfortunate phenomenon and I'm seeing more and more of that. But on a more positive note
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah.
speaker-0: You talk about play as well and that sounds like the opposite of serious performance, but why play and how can you get to that?
speaker-1: to polyvagal theory and all of that, what I quickly realized, which we all know, is when we've been at our best, whether it's in a conversation with somebody, whether it's on center court, wherever it is, are you fighting for your life? Or is it actually kind of free, interesting? Are you curious? Like, are you connected? Are you feeling competent? You're focused, but you're also somewhat relaxed. That's play. Okay. It's actually a physiological state. And so I coined the word Or the phrase the play zone, which is partly the flow state, right? So we've all heard of the flow state or being in the zone. And that is a smaller part of the play zone. Those are still a state of play. So the state of play or the play zone, physiologically, what it means is there's some metabolic output. There's an elevation in heart rate, breathing, mental effort, maybe even movement. Doesn't have to be movement. You could just have mental effort. So there's some elevation in energy output. But at the same time, there's still rhythm. There's rhythm in the heart rate going up and down with breath. There's rhythm in the movement. There's rhythm in the engagement. It's not just like a runaway train locked down and heart rate just keeps going up. And there's also really importantly in play, there's connection. And that connection could be to the audience if you're performing, could be to your Teammates, if you're playing a team sport, it could be just to a higher purpose, could be meaning, the why, all of that. But there's some connection to purpose, something bigger, others in the moment. So you have this elevation in energy, but there's an underlying rhythm. And technically, that rhythm is this ventral branch of the vagus turning on and off and regulating the sympathetic nervous system, but also the whole. metabolic output, the way the organs are functioning, the level of muscle tension through the body, all of that. And providing access to the higher parts of the brain for creativity, for problem solving, for collaborating, and this connection. So play doesn't have to be silly goofy. It's it can be very focused, but there's still this capacity for connection and still this rhythm to the output.
speaker-0: When speak about rhythm, and I know that you also written about music and rhythm, is that also part of it?
speaker-1: Can be. Like Michael Phelps would always listen to music. And a lot of the top achievers will come out and listening to music before they do their thing. And whether they're doing it consciously or not, they're using the rhythm, the tempo, the phrasing in the music to prepare their physiology for their event. And so some people really are already in a very anxious, nervous body in anticipation. And so they might use music that's a little more soothing. They might, or they might match it and use really hip-hopy upbeat music or even really kind of aggressive, kind of abrasive music and channel it more into fight energy. So you see it being done, whether it's deliberate or not, but it can be a very powerful resource to move the body into different rhythms or to disrupt the rhythms and move you into different states. So it's very, very powerful.
speaker-0: Yeah, there's more and more research around the power of music in our ability to regulate ourselves. It's great for workshop, for example. I mean, it creates a different environment when you start with rhythm and dancing together. But I want to go back into that play zone. So that's it sounds like it's such a desirable state for most of us. Ideally, we would all want to be in the play zone all the time. Well, probably it's not possible to be there all the time, but how do you get there? Most of the time or when it actually matters.
speaker-1: We'll go one step back and then that'll lead into that. So typically when we're under pressure, the body begins to prepare. We call that nerves or we call that anxiety. We give it a label, but it's the body preparing for the uncertainty of what's going to occur. Some people, there's so much anticipation and there's so much uncertainty that they actually then move further into collapse or withdrawal or numbness, and they might even detach. And so those are typically not. The business leaders, what we tend to see in our culture of high achieving is people that for whatever reason, they have that first response where going into something that's uncertain, they start mobilizing resources, they get nervous, they get anxious, but they're not tipping all the way into some sense of overwhelm. So that's part one. Part two is often the highest achievers in this culture, what I call the fight culture, are the strongest fighters, the most resilient. And gritty and tough, who can take that nervous energy and instead of getting defensive and playing it safe, they get loud and aggressive and attack and they fight. And in sports, put the game face on. Well, what's the game face? The game face is tense. I'm not looking around at anybody or anything. You're either coming with me or get the hell out of my way. That's the game face. That's the approach. That's the paradigm. That's the US culture.
speaker-0: So the MMA.
speaker-1: Yes, that's it. Well, that's why people love the MMA because it matches them. It gets them into that zone where it's like this is it, I'm powerful. And you can be powerful. Even a business team, all in this state of fight, can really accomplish a lot because it's very clear. It's like, this is what we're going after. We're either going to go after this target or we're going to go after this vulnerability in our opponent. And this is what we're doing. And I've got your back, you've got my back. Here we go. And when things get tough, We just get even more intense and we fight and fight and fight harder. However, there's even a higher level, and that's this play zone. Why is it higher? Well, because it's more sustainable. There are these rhythms, and we know biologically those rhythms allow recovery. So it means we can go longer. We have access to higher cortical areas. We have access to social connections. So we can work together as a team. We have what's called team chemistry. That is the spoken and unspoken connection that we have. So we also know that this play zone is higher level. It is optimal. Part of it is that flow state, that being in the zone is not in a state of fight. It's in a state of play. It's in the play zone. So I look at this as a performance hierarchy, which I know you're familiar with. So to me, what we talked about when there's pressure, those of us that move into this collapse, overwhelm, numbness, withdrawal. We're at the bottom of the performance hierarchy when it's a performance-based culture, like business, like academics, like life. So those of us that withdraw and retreat, and I have many times withdrawn and retreat, we all have that capacity. It's actually a self-protective mechanism. It's the body conserving what's left to keep us alive. But those of us that that is more of our pattern, we don't get very far in that culture. I put that at the bottom of the period. Those of us that feel the nerves and the anxiety and all of that in anticipation of putting ourselves out there. And we feel that, but we still go, we still do it, but we play it safe. I call that the flight zone. And that's higher performing than the withdrawal, but it's still lower performing than the next tier up is fight. The fighters are higher performing than the defenders, the protectors. But above that is play, the play zone. They're the leaders. Who can actually meet each teammate, team player, wherever they are, and start to lift them. And maybe they bring someone who's in collapse and shutdown. Maybe they mobilize them and they're playing defense, but at least they're in the game. Maybe they take the defenders and they help them fight. And maybe they take the fighters and they start giving them enough connection that they can soften just enough that now they can become play. They can move into the play zone. So I look at them as steps. And some people can follow the steps in order. Sometimes you can skip a step. It doesn't matter. But to me, it's just a model for seeing how we can use these other states and use their advantages.
speaker-0: This is a really powerful one. It brings something really important to this discussion, which is that when you have that leader who has that ability to regulate their nervous system or who are in the play zone, the power of that leader in rallying others behind them, it's often not the words. It can be very, you know, people can be inspirational, other, but it's it's the energy. The vibe is very real and it's chemistry. And it's physiology and people do get it. And if only more leaders would understand this, that this is the place from where you lead.
speaker-1: Yeah. And sometimes it means you're rallying the troops to fight. Sometimes that's what needs to be done. But that isn't the ultimate goal. To me, that's the stepping stone to the ultimate goal, which how do we connect? How do we collaborate? How do we play together? And we're not doing this out of fear, but we're actually doing this out of an expression of each of our best versions. And the next level is when you're able to do that and you see the opposing team. As the opportunity to elevate. So they're no longer the enemy or the obstacle. They're actually the opportunity, right? And we see that in men's tennis with Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Center. They are modeling what I'm talking about. They're elevating each other. They are not looking at each other as enemies. They're looking at each other as actually allies, lifting their games, making each other focus more on their own vulnerabilities. So when they play each other, they aren't. vulnerable and exposed and they they're so respectful and they're both getting better because of it.
speaker-0: Example. Absolutely fantastic. Were Federer and Nadal as well? Was it the same?
speaker-1: Not in the beginning. They got there at the end of their careers when Fed really started accepting that he had to do something different or Nadal was just going to attack his backhand. And their early years, it was not that. But I wouldn't say they had the same level of elevating each other in the heat of the competition that you see with Sinner and Alcaraz. The Nuna Dahl special on Netflix. It's well worth watching. You know, and the same with Djokovic. I'd say they they all have this mutual respect. And they certainly were training in a way that they could play each other better. But this is next level. What I'm seeing with Cinner and Alcarez is like next level. It's really unique, but it's awesome. ⁓ they're actually the storyline through the book that I'll have coming out next year, it's all about all of this. And the storyline through is following Alcaraz and center with Djokovic wrapped up in there too, 'cause to me he's made this transition as well.
speaker-0: And you've been writing about him in your psychology today articles. So if anybody's interested, just go and check them out. So the your book, The Performance Code, is is going to be published in two thousand and twenty seven. So you already gave something out. So we have a we have a teaser.
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. So if you're into sports as a metaphor and if you consider yourself a high achiever or someone who's looking to perform under pressure, this is an approach grounded in everything that you and I talked about today.
speaker-0: And it's called the performance code. I look very much forward to reading it. Michael, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you here. If somebody tries just one thing from this conversation this week, what would you want it to be?
speaker-1: First off, just recognize wherever you are, wherever you are. Just be honest with yourself about am I really striving and trying to achieve and perform or whatever it is because I'm trying to grab something that I don't have. Just be honest with yourself. Just start with whatever that is. And okay, so let's say it is. Why? Well, it doesn't matter why. We all have a reason why, but let's just first be honest. with what's really driving the achievement.
speaker-0: Sometimes I did the ma mental health utilization of these things can actually get in the way. You don't always need to know the why.
speaker-1: You don't need to know the why, but just acknowledge where you are, what state you're in that's driving that. And if it is coming out of not enoughness, okay. Now what else can coexist that can start to maybe soften the edge around that, that can start to at least refill you in ways that aren't based on performance?
speaker-0: Thank you. It was really great to have you as a guest and I hope that we can continue these conversations.
speaker-1: Anytime. Thank you, Susanna.
speaker-0: That's all for this episode of Inner Work. If this conversation resonated with you, subscribe wherever you listen and pass it along to someone who could use it. Remember, small shifts inside create big changes out there. Until next time, keep doing the inner work.
