Event Experience Experts - Ep 8 - Start Collecting Moments

Jay Menashe: Most events are forgettable, not because the people running them don't care, but because they're optimizing for logistics instead of memory. I'm Jay Menashe Senior Director of Strategy and Growth at Exhibitus, and this is Event Experience Experts. Every episode I sit down with the creatives, strategists, and senior leaders who are raising the bar on what live brand experiences can actually do. If you're done accepting forgettable, you're in the right place. My guest today spent time on the main stage of the Future Hospitality Summit in Riyadh, telling a room full of hospitality investors and developers that the building is only the beginning. That what actually creates loyalty and memory is how a space gets activated, not how much marble is in the lobby. He's the founder of House of Attention, a creative studio that spent over a decade designing experiences that show up as moments, not amenities. Before that, he built an event company that once served a formal dinner on a moving subway car. I'm completely fascinated with the work you're doing and I loved our conversation last week, so I'm especially excited to welcome Michael Cirino to the pod.
Michael Cirino: To meet you, Jay Thank you so much for having me. And I think we as experienced designers are really having kind of a moment right now with this whole AI fication of everything, ditchification, however you want to slice it up, but the realness that we bring on a regular basis, the thing that we try to problem solve for all the time, the outrageousness of theater without a net, so to speak, or without rehearsals that we tread in on a regular basis, is becoming more and more prevalent. It's becoming the driving force for how people do their large capital investment, their real Estate design, but also it's how storytelling and it's how global cultures are moving now, right? We just had the World Cup, which is the biggest party you could possibly throw in the, you know, in the world at the moment. and it's it's interesting to see how communities responded, reacted, what kind of experience they designed around that center of gravity to amplify it and to bring their culture to life as the thing happens, whether it was Kansas City or Mexico City. It really doesn't matter. Each one of them had to do their own thing to say, you know, this is how we're gonna welcome people into our world and give them the experience that's as true. true it's stars, hearts. and I I I appreciate that we do it in all sorts of different levels. So thanks for having me here and to talk about this process.
Jay Menashe: Yeah, well and I love the World Cup, you know, talking about that specifically just because, you know, the the comparison I heard it's like, we just invited all our cousins over and it's a how we welcome them. You said it perfectly. It's like, you know, to see all A to see their fascination with ranch dressing in Costco and Walmart and Bu-cee's I was like, I can't I I could watch that like injected in my veins. I I just thought it was so funny. It's like, wow, America, ranch dressing. Let's go.
Michael Cirino: Hundred percent. I mean I'm a blue cheese guy because I'm from the East Coast. My wife is a is is a ran ranch person 'cause she's from the Midwest. But listen, the sour cream based dipping sauces are fantastic. I'm glad other people are recognizing it. I think what was really funny inside this whole mix, my family and I ended up watching a cooking show where it was like a pizza competition with a bunch of different like pizza aoli's right? And there was some young guys that did crazy pizza with a bunch of crazy toppings on it, like buffalo chicken and all that stuff. And then there was like an old Italian guy that was like, I've been making Nepal style pizza For eight years like this. And they had to use special ingredients in one of the contests. And he got the ranch dressing. And you could just see all the other pizza aoli's were like, this is gonna be easy. I would totally put this on the pizza, I could do it too. And he was just like, This is not fucking happening. There's absolutely no way I'm gonna put this. And he ended up putting like truffles in it. And like, and then at the end of the day, all of the people were like, This was absolutely delicious. Did you try it? And he was like, I refuse. Yeah. So he went through the whole contest, made something delicious, served it to the guests and they were like, this is great. He's like, cool, never, never gonna eat that in my entire life. Hope you have a good rest of day.
Jay Menashe: Well you also just taught me something already. I didn't realize that blue cheese versus ranch was like an East Coast versus Midwest. I knew ranch like West Coast, I lived in LA, they're like, Yeah, let's dip our pizza in ranch. I'm like, that's because your pizza is trash, but that's a whole other
Michael Cirino: I I I think we've d established that pizza does not have to be bad to be better with ranch dressing or something dipped in it. But blue cheese just happens to be what people associate with wings on the East Coast. Yes. mostly Massachusetts, New York, the you know, the mid Atlantic. From my experience, I'm not a food iconoc or historian or somebody who's who's done deep research on this. So please if anybody actually does know let where that that line break is. I'm sure Buffalo though is gonna be it's the least past Buffalo, right? Buffalo's firmly in the blue cheese category, but I'm sure that they're happy to do both.
Jay Menashe: Yeah, listen, you you're I'm gonna call you the expert now. You are the man. You have made this decision. We are the Buffalo I'm sorry, the blue cheese capital of the world is on the east. So all right, we'll we'll flag in the sand.
Michael Cirino: I I appreciate it. And there you go. Another another another flag in my hat as well. d d d definitively. I I I find though that these questions of like culture and how culture attaches to experience design, especially around the World Cup, but around any of these experiences, any kind of journey I I think, you know, You know, I've been doing experiential design for brands and for meetings, incentives, and you know, all sorts of corporate events. Th the energy around it is all starting to feel the same though, right? Trade show booths to me are now the center of gravity and a whole campaign that you have to run around the trade show. You can't just sponsor the booth and expect the leads to get there. You know, we were just in Saudi Arabia, like you were talking about, at a conference that I'd never been to, that I'd never spoken at before, but the stage presentation that I was giving to make it feel as impactful as we wanted it to, we engaged people in seven different ways. Like we hosted a podcast for weeks beforehand, did a podcast on site, built a listening room, activated the food and beverage in unique ways, did a cultural safari off-site so that we could both see the city and the things that we wanted to see, but also invite the guests that live there to give us their perspectives and views on what was going on. So again, it was richer in cultural experiences. And again, I think I'm not the exception or maybe I'm still the exception, but I shouldn't be the exception anymore. That kind of proactivity towards experience design. If you're going to make the kind of investment that it takes to bring your team to a physical place, to build a booth, to do the drayage whatever, you know what I mean, to put the things on the ceiling and to have them take it out of the boxes and all the nonsense, right? There's a lot of weight to carry there. And KPIs don't come through gift, you know, business cards in a fishbowl or the number of views that your booth got on social media or that your pop-up got. You really have to think about it in a more wholistic storytelling component towards your global brand and your global messaging.
Jay Menashe: Yeah, you know, and and bringing up the the future hospitality summit, that's where I'll tell you now. Most of my questions are around that content. I I I couldn't get enough of looking at your LinkedIn posts and I'm gonna you know, basically I have a long flight coming up or multiple flights coming up. I got podcasts to listen to and I appreciate you for that. So so let me bring it back. Like one of the things you argued at your session was that we stopped collecting luxury goods and we've started collecting moments. You know, the building is really only the build the the beginning. I mean that's a pretty bold claim in a room full of people that, you know, I'll say it spent nine figures. it it could even be more than that on on building. What was the pushback what's the pushback you get most often and I'll say I'll even add like where do you think it's wrong?
Michael Cirino: So I would say the pushback isn't exactly that what I'm saying is wrong. I think there is a there is a understanding on a you know, kind of like a global level for this, that experience design is the thing that makes a place feel lived in. I think the difference is that different parts of the world and different types of investors. I would even say in New York here we saw the same kind of thing happen with the Hudson Yards project. They're have a real if you build it it will they will come kind of energy. And I think that that is very is possible in l certain places. It's possible with certain IPs, certain brands attached to it, whether they be hospitality specific brands or retail or or F and B. But that globalization of if you build it, they will come and the brands that people feel are acceptable for putting in those if you build it places are not they're not sustaining that anymore, right? The the best restaurants in New York that now have 30 locations don't feel unique and interesting anymore. They don't have the same charm and magic that they did in the first one in East Village. Now, you know, 17 copies later. and I see part of that is because it's really hard to keep the staff excited, get them at the same level of Performance. And I think a lot of what we take for granted in the experiential world is that you know it's really on the shoulders of our team to deliver the kind of quality experience that we imagine in spreadsheets and then try to deliver to the client and decks. And if that team is doing anything, it's improv comedy or improv theatrical performances on a regular basis. And if they don't have good props and a good set and good training, the ability to say yes and to each other, they're gonna start to fail and they're gonna. Feel that failure and they're gonna get bummed out. The guests are gonna get bummed out. And again, that's something that we as experienced designers can work with, can build better versions of so that that support structure happens from the ground up. And I think when you're building a brand new building somewhere that doesn't have a lot of buildings around it, it's even that much more important to say, what are we doing here to connect this to the world that is outside of the building? You know, I typically say you can't open your windows to let the air conditioning blow out. You have to have the windows open so that the air can flow through. move in and out, right? And I think that is one of those things that they might not say if they're a developer that they do, but it's something that they recognize the industry is doing. And that if a solution was possible, the return on investment would be higher. And I think that same kind of conversation is happening. In any trade show, when the real estate is that 20 by 20 or whatever the F it is, you know what I mean? Like however you slice that up, I'm putting in a huge amount of money in here. It might not be nine figures, but if it's six figures, that's still a significant investment to time, human capital, and resources. And what are we doing to to integrate ourselves with the people around us in the community that we're in, to plant seeds, to not just be an interloper here looking for marketing value, but to be somebody who is consistently providing value. expanding the oculus of what's possible for the conversations we're starting.
Jay Menashe: Yeah, no, and there's a lot to dig into there. I mean, I think you you know, one thing you said was like build it and they will come. That's such an old school mentality at this point, and whether it's an event or trade show or a physical building, you have to create some momentum around it. You know, there there have to be an integrated marketing push to get people to come to your space, to come people get them to experience it. You know, I really I I think that People need to lean into that more. You know, we talk about it all the time, the pre at post. It's like, but it's not just for events. It it is. It's for building that community. I really I I love that. I won't dig into all these other things, but I have I have many questions, so I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep on going. Yeah, of course. Listen, I I I think you have a really interesting perspective. I think we agree on a lot of things, but I also like you you just think differently than a lot of people, which I I appreciate especially. So one of the conversations happening was about the shift from building developments to building those communities. You know, something walkable, integrated neighborhood, where people really know each other and it's not just like a tower with amenities. You I said it before, it's like it's not just about the marble. what does that same idea look like inside a you know a single activation or event where it's not building a development or community? It's just like three, four days.
Michael Cirino: I mean again I I think that you know the the the space that I think about experience design sorry The space that I think about experience design starts pre-decision to post experience. A lot of what we do, I would say 70% of what we do is on-site, right? It is the theater, it is the set set, it's the fabrication, it's the staffing. But the other 30% is how do I get your attention to want to come to this thing? How do I get my team's attention to be present and focused? How do we understand what the KPIs and the deliverables are so that as we start to deploy these resources, time, energy, money, that that the feedback loop starts to create a Center of gravity that pulls us towards a success and creates tension that allows the only resolution to be the you know path of least resistance to success, right? And there's a lot of different ways to think around that, but like I again, you know, don't think of the monophonicness of the experience design. I think about how do I take this platform that I'm building. Create as many different conversations from this platform, validation points from this con this this platform. you know, not just how many leads can I capture, right? Because you know, I was in a country I really have never been into in a professional way, on a stage I'd never been in. And I didn't think that just spending money to sponsor the event or be a speaker, you know, yeah, they asked me to speak, right? Like th those two things are options, right? And you get value from sponsorship, you get value from the trade show booth, but the what we did was not a traditional booth structure. It was not a traditional like, well you you know, he we he's on stage and you come over here and let's get some business cards. It was about dist describing what we were doing before we got there and giving people the reason to s seek seek seek us out to ask for our consulting advice or to be able to invest in our businesses. And I think that that is part of what we should be thinking about when we make any of these moments, right? How does the ephemeral moment lead towards, you know, infinite media? And how does that infinite media validate us so that those finite moments are more impactful and and and have a clarity of purpose, if that makes sense.
Jay Menashe: No, it does. And what you did, instead of it being a moment in time and having that just speaking opportunity, you you were able to create it in moments over time. And you know, you did the pre-show, you're having it you're getting building that anticipation with getting people interested to even hear you speak in the first place. And then having that thread afterwards, you know, that red thread connecting it all, so it's not like, hey, I just just following up email. Like, you know, if I r see I I can't hit delete fast enough where it's like, hey, hope you're well, just wanted to follow up. You have something to talk about and connect it back to that experience. And I think again, going back to that, like there are three changes. chapters of of this of the book and you gotta activate all of them to create that you know that community feeling whether again building a development, building community or building an event. one area I love focusing on is unreasonable hospitality. I don't know. Have you read that book?
Michael Cirino: Hundred percent. Will is a friend. I think when I did the El Train dinner was right in the core heart of the the unreasonable hospitality time at Eleven Madison Park And I remember going in for a pre-shipped meal and talking about the project with the team and about our motivations and why. And you know, not to be too specific, but it was a six-course meal of really fancy food on the subway. there were 12 guests, and it took 84 people to serve them lunch. And because it was in a public space, and because I'm an event producer who's used to having permits and insurance and all sorts of things when I do anything, right? and I couldn't get any of that stuff for that experience because of the way the space was designed. I just wanted to make sure. We were up to code. So besides those 84 people, I had a lawyer with me on the train, I had the MTA code of conduct. Again, like I try to play according to the rules of society in a way that is dynamic and focused so that the people know that they're allowed to relax and be present in that experience design. And it was really great to talk about it with him because. He was doing that same thing on site. He was giving his team permission to take their expectations and blow it out of the water, even if it is in tiny ways. And I was trying to do it in large and dynamic ways, right? Because I didn't have a restaurant that needed to do the same thing over and over again 500 times a day, right? So I had the freedom of being wildly outside of the box as my foundation instead of making sure that, you know, all 18 courses get served and they're all flawless all the time. And I think that balance of the permanence that that you know he exemplifies in unreasonable. Hospitality in 11 Madison Park and that vision of how can I treat this customer journey differently. you know, that that was the foundation I started from when I was doing those events, just for the core purpose of it, right? And I think the that when I was a little kid and the Michelin guidebook meant more, right? I I always understood that three Michelin stars wasn't just about how good the food was, or wasn't that it was fancy, but it was something that was worth a journey. And I always imagined that the experience. that I design are worth a journey, right? If I'm gonna do something in Las Vegas, you should get on a plane and you should come to Las Vegas because I'm an amazing experience designer and I don't do things in a mediocre way and if this thing fits inside your passion point whether it be a activation, a trade show booth, a conversation that's happening on stage, it's going to deliver because that is the thing that I know that I have to do to be me. Right. And I think that that idea was lost somewhere in the way ways when we were trying to imagine, you know, how to define fanciness. But that idea of driving people to want to have an adventure, I think is one of the core operating functions of us as experienced designers. And I would love to have it be a better, better said metric, but it's definitely something that I think about every single time. Would somebody feel that they made a memory or feel valuable with this trip if they came all the way across the world to see me and or participate or play or whatever the thing is?
Jay Menashe: Yeah, I think what impressed me most, and you know, there's so many things in that book that I lean into, but it's like they have literally a couple of hours to make figure out like what is this thing that we can do to make this such a special memory and moment. And it's like we have months and some cases years to like, hey, we know these people so well. We can collect all this data. And it's just often it it's overlooked, and it's not even a budget thing. Like, you know, I always look I always lean back to that like the hot dog story. It's like, what did that cost them? A dollar fifty and ten minutes of time in the kitchen to make it the most memorable story. They probably came out of every every Michelin you know experience they had in the city that that trip they had. And yeah, I mean I think it you you're you said it like going to Vegas, like let's be in this moment and let's create something real and memorable and impactful. And and those aren't always things you can measure on a you know on a spreadsheet and say, hey look at the ROI we got from doing this thing. But it's like, yeah, but that they will remember you in that moment and how they felt and that is where it will come back in ROI and maybe even not directly, which is fine. But I guarantee it's like you built that trust and you built that relationship through those actions and that's where it really, you know, levels up.
Michael Cirino: And again, I think one of the things that I'm trying to figure out better language and conversation around as experiential becomes blurred with hospitality and tourism and meetings, incentives, and corporate events, right? The blurriness of all this stuff is really interesting because the KPIs get even blurrier. And I think one of the things that we really have to figure out as an industry is how to talk about this as capital B brand investments. Capital B brand investments are the value of the Coca-Cola. value of the Nike swoosh, the value of the energy that those things exemplify and how it becomes a part of our place. It's not about how many views or likes we got on social media. it's not about how many people took pictures at our photo booth or our step and repeat or if our hashtag is trending, because none of those things are actually indicative of a good experience design. a thoughtful memory that was delivered with unreasonable hospitality. something that will actually move the needle in any of the other KPIs. If you have outrageousness, you might get some of them, but that's just eating candy. It's not giving you nourishment. And I think we as a group have to stop fetishizing these things that are really beyond our control and also not valuable in the same way that buying banner ads is valuable. Like you can get clear KPIs from banner ads. How many people clicked on it did they can how far down the funnel did they get what is blocking them from the funnel? That's nice and really sure part Of our value is doing that, but a lot of our value is just propping up all those other conversations, whether it be for marketing, entertainment, communication, to say we're safe, you know, we're here, we're doing the thing. If you got to hire a SaaS platform, we're here and we're listening to you, and you can trust us because we're here with all the other SaaS platforms. And if we weren't here, maybe you wouldn't trust us as much unless we came up with a good reason why we weren't here and gave you the same kind of validation through other types of experiences, whether they be online or IR. And I think that's kind of where where my brain always gets to. And I think that's also what makes this stuff unreasonable, right? Because it's not about the Instagram moment, it's about the the memory making and how that memory then connects to the the brand that delivered that memory. Again, we all you know, a good friend of mine named David Tidal always says, no matter what the client asks for, what they really want is a photo booth. And I I think that is an oversimplification. What they really want is to be responsible for making a memory. And what's not c memories are not in the the photo booth, right? They're not in the Instagram, they're not in the number of leads you got on your lead magnet, right? You have to holistically look at the the thing as as a big thing, bigger bigger picture if that makes sense.
Jay Menashe: Yeah, no, I think well the photo reminds you of the memory, and and that that it's like, Hey, you don't need to take a a video of fireworks, you need to to remember the fireworks. You're literally never gonna look at that ever again. But you see you know, how many people at fireworks shows like, let me th it's like I did it back in the day when I first got a digital camera, you know, not to age myself too much, but it's like, this is so cool, I can actually take a picture and see it in the moment. It's like I don't think I've looked at those since two thousand and five when I bought that digital camera. So yeah, no, I think they're it it it's focusing on a guess what and getting down to the the bone. Like what is that memory you want to create? What are we trying to get then that feeling? So you know go I'm gonna digress a little bit. How are you friends with Will Guidara I need to know this.
Michael Cirino: I'm I listen, I'm I I we have a relationship because of what we do, right? When I did the L train, he invited me to talk at EMP. I had already been a guest at EMP. I knew people that worked at EMP in their media and storytelling place, and we share the same kind of language, right? I think my version is a little bit more outrageous than unreasonable because he's also bound by the rules, or at the time he was bound by the rules of civility, right? He was bound by the rules of the three Michelin Star guide. He was bound by the desire to have the best. Restaurant in the world. Those are all things that put you into a box of creativity. And unreasonability is definitely something that is acceptable inside that box. You know what I mean? If we look at experiential marketing, you know, like I've blown things up, I've set things on fire, right? I'm not unreasonable. I'm outrageous, right? And and there is a different need in our industry to take what is foundationally understood as can you go outside of your comfort zone as the host to bring your guest outside of their comfort zone so you can make a memory? And I think that's where our connection really came. And And as he was building the nomad and he was creating other opportunities for his brand to start to expand, it was always just fun to check in with him and to see that progress. And I got to hang out with him, I think we were at And it was the it was the special event. Last February, I think he spoke at, and I happened to be at the event as well. So it was nice to catch up with him there because, you know, as a event speaker, you know, you don't always know the the room that you're sitting in and exactly who the people are. And it was his first time in front of DMCs. So I got to speak to him the night before the conversation and explain these are the people that are gonna be in the room tomorrow and this is what you mean to them. And it was awesome to be able to see him respond and, you know, connect, you know, organically in that that sp You know, again, he's he's a consummate professional, and I think it's really awesome to see how he's taking what he did inside restaurants and in hospitality and pulling it to other businesses because again, as I said, that blurry line is is the blurry space is getting fuzzier and fuzzier every day. It's it's there's no delineations anymore between you know these different spaces.
Jay Menashe: Yeah, no, that's very true. I I got to meet him at South by in twenty five and I think it's the first time I fanboyed over an adult that wasn't any like an athlete or a movie star and I saw he was speaking. And have you been to South by before?
Michael Cirino: Yeah, I I a hundred percent.
Jay Menashe: So that was my only time ever there, and I I I learned very quickly if you don't get to one of these big general sessions at least like thirty f to an hour early, you're just not getting in. And I realized about ten minutes before his session that he was speaking. So I dropped what I was doing, I sprint over there, I get in like two minutes before it's there, and I actually got a pretty good seat. And I got to meet him afterwards and I like, my god, I can't believe I'm in this moment right here. And it's like what what was especially cool is like not only does he write the book about unreasonable, like he seems like just And I obviously only had this one experience, like just a gen like as genuine as it got. Like you saw him answering questions at the very end, the last like ten, fifteen minutes, and really just like looking the person directly in the eye. And one person got cut off because they had to kick us out of the room. There was another session. And he's like, I'm so sorry. And then took it outside, then answered another, you know, fifteen minutes worth of questions. And it was just that it's like, you know, they always say, Don't meet your heroes, not and I won't Will is a hero, but it's like definitely an inspiration. And it was so cool to see, it's like, thank goodness, you live up to the message you're you're putting out there. And I thought that was very
Michael Cirino: I think he o over delivers in a lot of those ways as both an individual and as as a as a speaker and as a thought leader, right? Because the message that he's taking into different boardrooms, into different conversations is well beyond the kind of things that we think about, right? The lighting design, the tables, the the food and beverage, right? It is about how you treat human beings, how you see them, how you listen to them. And it's something we can always do a little bit better every single day, giving that space and giving that availability to the rest of the universe.
Jay Menashe: And the correlations to our industry. It's like it's so obvious. You know, the the front of house versus back of house conversation is a constant in my world and it's like, yeah, no, guys, we literally need each other. I don't understand why there's a battle here. You can't do your job if I don't do my job, and I certainly can't do my job if you don't do yours. So it's like, can we just all appreciate we're on the same team here? And that and that was the biggest message probably in the in the book was that, beyond of course, the unreasonable hospitality moments. there was one thing I No no, go ahead, go ahead.
Michael Cirino: I was just gonna say you have to have that ecosystem or you're not you're gonna fail, right? We are a team. It's not a family, it's a team. There's different positions, they get handed off. There's responsibilities. When you don't deliver, you have to be responsible to yourself. But when you do deliver and everybody's moving in the same direction, that culture, that excitement, that thing that drives the stuff forward is going to be valuable for everybody. and it's gonna keep employees around, it's gonna keep staff focused, it's gonna allow for the guests to know why they're there and have a better clarity of information. So every time that you can communicate your Version of that conversation, that hospitality, you'll get more and more returns and coming back to you if you don't, you know what I'm saying.
Jay Menashe: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, absol absolutely. one of the quotes I really leaned into that I read you it was the future of hospitality isn't five stars, it's five senses. You know, that service level luxury matters less than how that space is making you feel. I know we've already talked about this a little bit. when you're standing in in front of one of your own ac or inside one of your own activations, how do you know that it's landing on a sensory level?
Michael Cirino: I mean, so I I always say that besides the five physical senses we have, there's usually five things that you need to have at an event for human beings to feel comfortable, safe, and ready to explore whatever the extension is, right? You need to have a a a set, a place, you need to have a performance, you need to have music, you have food and beverage, you need to have bathrooms. Right? Those five things need to be there so that humans can stay and again feel seen, but also feel entertained, feel purpose, feel reason why, right? Any of those five things, even the bathroom, which I call a spa, right? is is can be the focus of why you're gathering, right? You can go to a concert for the music, you can go to a sports event for a a performance, you can go to Broadway for a performance, but you know the other things once you get into that format, right? If we're at Yankee Stadium or I can't see yet the if we're at the the Ranger, you guys, you know Madison Square Garden for the Rangers in the background there, I think, right? If if I've seen that correctly. Yeah. You know what you're gonna eat, you know what what songs you're gonna hear when, you know, all of the things that connect, you know what the bathrooms look like, you know, we know you see all of that stuff in your head before that experience happens because rituals over time create community around those experiences, right? I I also know that as an experience designer, and I This is maybe inside baseball, we can figure it out. I I will sell 50 things. I will plan to do a hundred because I know that I'm only gonna be able to execute some version between 50 and 75 of them. And I won't get to choose which of those things gets cut off the map because it's theater without rehearsals and no safety net. So hey, turns out that thing didn't show up. Why didn't it show up? If that X plane got hit by lightning, you know what do you want me to tell you? I don't this it's out of my control. If you want me to do it again tomorrow, it'll get here, but it's not gonna be here today. So I instead have these three other things that are gonna take its place in either the run of show and the set decoration or whatever it is. And that over-preparedness, I think, is one of those things that allows us as the producers to feel comfortable in that space, knowing that we're gonna deliver or over-deliver so that we can feel like that risk was well balanced, right? Because there always is that risk of. Well shit, it's raining and we're outside and we need to get a tent, so what are we gonna do now?
Jay Menashe: Mm-hmm God, what a mistake, no tent with that going outside. Yeah, speaking of things that you can't predict and which is like everything in our world, you can only plan so many variables, but I was talking to a a brand once and I'm like, you this is a new booth, when when did you guys decide? She's like, we didn't make that decision. Our truck shipping the booth here lit on fire or caught fire on the way here and we had to scramble like two days prior to just get anything. And I'm like, Well this is really impressive considering I just learned your booth was liter on actually on fire. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, you just gotta do it. Well, I think one thing you you keep saying is like, you know, we don't get rehearsals. I mean, it it you never think about it that way. You're like, you're right, like once it starts, it starts. Like there's no turning back. It's just full speed ahead, we're going zero to sixty, and when it's over, it's over and we can talk about right and wrong and what can we do different next year. But it's like, you know, we always plan for I I like that, you fifty to a hundred things that we're planning for Yes, we want to get them all done. the reality is things happen, people happen. There's so many things that can get in our way that are literally human behavior. It's just unpredictable in so many ways. I I like that that framing.
Michael Cirino: Yep, and and I I I think again, right, like the ability to respond and react is what experiential d producers do, right? Like I know that there's people that produce TV commercials that have a hard time, but they're in a fucking set and they get to edit and they get to change the lighting and do it a second time. They get to know ahead of time what the riders are for the talent that's coming in the room, right? Like a lot of the things that we deal with are last minute changes, reprioritizations, somebody up the creative chain saying things that aren't physically possible or against local labor. laws and I think that those things are interesting but because we are experienced designers and because we're used to trying to get it done even if the truck gets set on fire the the place that we find ourselves in is is how do we solve this problem as efficiently as possible with as much impact regularly. that we can deliver, right? As regularly as we can. And I think that breeds a specific type of producer. It allows for different types of spreadsheets to be made with different weird things written in the spreadsheet and different weirdos checking off the spreadsheet boxes. Do you know what I mean? And I think because of that it gives us an in a different flexibility and understanding where our creative bucket is that we get to to paint from, if if that makes sense.
Jay Menashe: Yeah, absolutely. And you you know, you you hope people don't freak out in that moment. It's like, hey, you can freak out. Could you just save it for like an hour from now when we fix this problem? There's no sense in freaking out in those moments. So Yeah. So there was another frame I really liked. you talked about like hardware and software, which is all like when I when I've read I'm like, What? What do you mean hardware and software in the event world? But you were talking about like, you the buildings are world-class, that's the hardware, and the real work left is the software, you know, that cultural programming, the sensory design that activates the space. You know, pair that with another idea from the summit that that comfort itself has become a commodity you can buy, you know, with literally a tap on the screen. So where are event and hospitality budgets still getting spent on hardware and comfort when the real return is in the software and the risk? What that line item everyone's afraid to fight for or or cross off without thought.
Michael Cirino: Yeah, I mean again, like I think that a lot of people love and I and I know that we're talking about, you know, Not just about set design and specifically set fabrication for trade show booths, but like I I feel like a lot of people overspend on the set without spending on the actual value conversation proposition, the theater that's happening inside the set, or even more so they spend on site when their spend should happen before, during, and after. Or yes, we're on yes, we have a booth, it's 101, but also we're hosting the opening night party off-site. this nightclub if you want to come here or we you know what we're not at the booth we took over this coffee shop right across the street and we're running a co-working space there all day so if you need to escape the trade show floor come across the street over to us and have a conversation that fits inside where our voice needs to be. Again not to keep us too tight inside the industries that we work in and the people that we work for and stuff but the the the the goal of putting my logo thing and hanging it very expensively from the ceiling seems like a massive waste of time and energy and almost 85 to 90% of the time. Undoubtedly I could just look at a budget and be like, cut all this and just hire more entertaining people immediately, no matter whether that is bad for whoever doing the the drayage is or whoever's doing the fabrication. Because again, like yes I can see your logo. But also, if I was interested in your brand, I'm gonna find you on the floor, anyways. If your brand is doing things that are interesting to me, I'm gonna seek you out even more. And if you've already engaged me ahead of time through content, storytelling, outreach, or have created a path for me to have six or seven user validations with you before I show up to your booth, your booth's job is still just part of that validation cycle. And that experiential moment is part of you being like. I can go to my boss and say that these are the right people to work with. Or my boss can be like, I saw them. Go seek them out and see if you want to work with them because they already work for me. And that relationship between the boss and the minus two or three that does the actual work, again, that's a storytelling thing that happens well beyond the floor of the experience. And it needs to happen actively before and after that KPI on site is going to be dramatically reduced.
Jay Menashe: Yeah, no, I I think putting more effort into that pre and post is where people miss out on a very regular basis. And you know, they think of a trade show or an event, it's like, this is an awareness play. It's like, well, if they're not already aware of you, they're probably not coming to see you in the first place. To your point, it's like your booth is a beacon. Your event is a beacon. They're coming to the event no matter what. It's whether they skip over you and they don't or they don't even notice you that it's like, well, now you're you're missing out. So I I love I I I I like the way you put that.
Michael Cirino: Yeah, and to your other point, right? Like I personally feel that comfort is available everywhere. We don't have to leave our houses. Things can come to us. What experiential can do that other things can't do is literally push you out of your comfort zone and grow. And memories are made when you are out of your comfort zone and you feel like you had a success as an individual. Passion is created when those things happen inside a community that you care about or around a topic that you care about. And again, like I'm talking to people here who are building five-star hotels that have amazing sheet counts and pillow selections and spas and pools and stuff and none of that stuff I think matters anymore because it's expected and it's foundational and if you don't do it well it's gonna detract from the thing but if you do do it well it's not adding any value nor is it creating a desire to come back. I think if you do that plus add in those cultural entertainment things or the cultural interactions, the social moments, the experiential design, or you literally say, You know, trust me, I'm gonna make you uncomfortable now and you're gonna enjoy this on the other side. That happens regularly in experience design. We just don't call it that, right? You go sit down at a chef's table in a three Michelin star restaurant, you don't get to choose any of the food. You know what I mean? They're they chose the food. You're eating the food that they want you to eat, and it's it's not a question. You're there because you want to try the chef's food and experience new. interesting things, how many more experiences would be val how many much how much more value would we get from experiences if we just assumed the experienced designer had my best interests at heart and knew that I was there to have a unique and dynamic experience instead of take some pictures in front of a photo booth and get like a water bottle.
Jay Menashe: Nobody remembers the water bottle and if I get another water bottle in my house I'm gonna scream. Which yeah, there there's probably gonna be one this weekend because my my family's addictive. my wife and my daughter specifically. I don't know how many Awalas we have in this house, but there's at least five too many.
Michael Cirino: But I would also say that that addiction also runs to the idea of we're making sustainability or we're doing wellness, so we're gonna have a yoga pop up. You know, I mean to me again that idea is so short sighted, it's so small audienced, it's so formulaic that it no longer delivers the value. You're not actually doing anything that is For the environment, if you're just making metal water bottles that people are going to recycle when they get home, right? You've wasted the energy in creating it, you've wasted the time in giving it out, you've lost all that budget, right? And it doesn't really deliver the KPI because now it's the same thing as a tote bag. Everybody has one, so why are we doing it? Right. The the value proposition, again, in the same way that the same pool and the spa and that the sheets and all that stuff is: how do you do the thing that's unexpected? How do you take the expected and deliver something bigger than that by you know understanding? what the goal was and the why, and then coming up with a new way of reaching that through your hows and what's.
Jay Menashe: Goal and the why. That is where, you know, yeah. I I was talking to someone recently and they're like, Yeah, I'm a strategist, that is what I do. I I you know, basically a fract fractional strategist. And she's like, the amount of people that have no idea why they're doing the event in the first place is astonishing. She's like, I'm gonna say like eighty percent. I'm like, I don't how do you get budget? Like if you're not thinking about that, the why, like would and it obviously it also needs to ladder up to like the corporate objectives, not just like this singular event. It's just crazy to me.
Michael Cirino: I mean, I would say like we run a workshop for brands, and I'll I'll be self-promotional here because it seems like this is a topic that we both need to do, about how to buy better experiences and to design better experiences once you've sponsored something or bought that trade show booth. And it's not about the aesthetics of the booth, it's about saying, I don't, I literally don't care what the booth looks like. It's about that strategic why. Why did we do this? Why does this thing happen? And what are we gonna do to get the value out? That you think you're gonna get out of it, right? How are you gonna create your own podcast, create your own content series, invite people personally, use your LinkedIn and Instagram and TikTok channels to drive attention and awareness towards something that you find is valuable to this community inherently? Because I think we started House of Attention under this with this understanding that humans can communicate in two ways, either marketing or entertainment. And marketing says, give me some of your time and I might provide you value. And entertainment says heres value. If you like this, come back. I've got a ton of it. This is what I care about. You care about too. Awesome. If you don't care about this, we're not really aligned here. And this is where I'm at, so you now know. And if you do care about this, shit, dude, let's fucking talk all you want. Because I got I love this stuff. And if you can't do that, your booth's not going to be valuable. You're just going to be marketing to people, and you won't get the validation or the brand endorsement lift, all that stuff. and that kind of workshop is really about understanding that why, what are the that are available to us and how can we approach this very stayed environment that is very tightly controlled and create chaos or or or dynamic energy in it because that again is going to cause memory making and cause us to feel like the responsible party for that that unique thing. And if it can be accretive to our our brand voice our message all that stuff even better.
Jay Menashe: Yeah, I think that the give to get mentality i is overlooked often. And I think you you nailed it with what you were saying about, yeah, marketing is we want to get you here, but what are we giving you to get you here? And that and it's like the same like when people are talking about like, Hey, come to booth 706 Why? Like what problem are you solving? What thing are you giving me? It's like, cool, you're here, like but there's no that that why is usually missing. It's like just come to just just come. we promise it'll be awesome.
Michael Cirino: We got water bottles and we're gonna we're gonna fill them up with our our water bubbler.
Jay Menashe: Yeah, exactly. All right. So my last question and there's I think there's a lot of advice that people can take from this pod for sure. But if there is one piece of advice you could give on how to redesign, you know, how people are approaching live experiences, what would it be?
Michael Cirino: One thing that I would say to redesign live experiences again is really focus on the audience that you're talking to and give them entertaining gifts immediately that validate you and your purpose for being inside that audience, right? the the purview of House of Attention is a triangle, right? We always try to imagine what is the media, the experience, and the artifact that we're creating to allow for that audience to sit inside this house of attention, right? They've decided to come to an automobile conference, you know, they have a reason to be at this automobile. conference because they love cars or because their boss and them sell cars and they need to make sure they know the new cars that are coming over. Whatever it is. But if they care about that thing enough, there's gonna be media that they're excited about that drives their passion towards our brand and our point in that audience. We're gonna push them towards having that ephemeral experience where they can have a more personalized moment, maybe make a memory or maybe at least connect the the energy that they care about deeply because they're a car person with the you know the thing that they're at. And then the goal is to give them an artifact. That artifact is usually it could be a piece of media, it could be a water bottle if it really was about. But the goal of that artifact is to be a key that unlocks their memory of the experience they just had or allows them to recreate that experience into the future, right? Like if you buy the Nike Dunks that are for the for the Knicks, you you can wear them every single day to keep your feet dry and warm, but that's not their value as an artifact. Their value of an artifact is to attach to your fandom. And I think if we start looking at experience design as part of that triangle of validation and as about of entertainment, then you'll start to realize that the experience itself has to be predicated on those other two things as well. And if you're not creating a dynamic experience that drives people to want to make media or From it, then you're also not making memories. And your photo booth is is could be as cool as AI photo booth in the world to make me look like Superman or something like that. It's really not gonna be accretive towards your goal, which is validating yourself to a passionate community. And again, if that passionate community is the you know the Doctors Association of America or everybody that goes to IMEX it doesn't it really matter. You really have to figure out why they're there, why you and see where that overlap is and then fill it up with the craziest things you possibly can because that's that's our choice, that's our ability, you know.
Jay Menashe: Yeah. I'm I'm gonna be looking for that coolest photo booth ever. I don't think it exists, but you know. So no, but I think that that's good advice to think about. Again, it's like it's it's similar to the pre, at, post. It's there are there are different layers you need to think about for all these experiences and you know what you're walking away with and what's gonna create that future memory is a really good takeaway. that's all I got for you, my mister Mr. Cirino I almost said Sereno again. I think your new nickname for me at least is gonna be Mr. Outrageous Hospitality. I I like that comparison to unreasonable hospitality. And it makes sense. House of Attention. you you guys are doing really cool things and everybody should check it out. But hey, I really appreciate you coming on. I'm I'm glad we're getting to know each other better and we're gonna have to get together in the city one of these days.
Michael Cirino: I really appreciate it. And I would I would just say in in in parting, attention is nothing without action and without that connection, right? So we call ourselves House of Attention because that is the first step in getting people to have that validated experience. But you know, you can't just have spectacle. The spectacle has to be sitting on a foundation of fabulousness. Whether it be the food on the plate, the the the the technology and the SAS platform, you can't just show up and say we're gonna set fire to the table and everybody's gonna think it's awesome or we're gonna have this explosions and fireworks show and and everybody's gonna know what it is. That thing is only great for capturing that tiny window of of attention that you have to say I'm here to give you value and come on this journey with me together and you know Jay it's always fun to talk to you about this kind of stuff because I think we do share a lot of these bits and I look forward to making some outrageous moments together.
Jay Menashe: Absolutely. All right. Thank you, sir. If you walked away with one thing you'll use, we did our job today. Event Experience Experts drops every week. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and check us out on YouTube if you want to watch. I'm Jay Menashe see you next time.