WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome.
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I'm Rob Wilkinson, and today we're taking a closer look at the recent Salesforce launch of the Agent Force Contact Center.
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And we're asking what that might mean for the future shape of customer experience.
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This launch of Agent Force Contact Centre has definitely created a lot of debate.
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Safe to say there's a wide range of different opinions, often dividing sort of the analysts' commentary online.
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So on one side, I'm seeing optimists who see this as a genuine shift in how customer service could run with AI moving from an add-on to something closer to a default execution layer.
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On the other hand, we've got the skeptics who see promise in this as an approach, but actually a lot of risk as well.
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So, particularly when we look at whether a new approach like this can match the reliability, the maturity operationally, or the depth that contact centers depend on, uh, like we have with a lot of the legacy vendors.
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So, today I'm joined by two analysts.
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They've both been quoted recently on this story uh from different sides of the opinion.
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Um, Zeus Caravalla from ZK Research representing the Optimists.
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Uh, welcome, Zeus and Dave Michaels from Talking Points.
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That's with a Zed, uh, representing the skeptics.
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Gentlemen, great to have you on.
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Thanks very much for joining me.
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I think that sums up uh the way we look at life too.
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I was I was trying to play uh play that through my head, but I'm not sure I'm a I'm I guess I'm a pessimist in many ways, but as far as uh Contact Center goes, I think it's it's a great time.
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So I'm not sure I feel uh I should be considered a pessimist regarding the contact center.
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Okay.
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So we'll go with um we'll go with uh considered opinion then rather than that particular one.
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Um but that's okay.
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Um I think um to try and get the audience on track in what we're talking about here, just in I mean, unless they've been under a rock, they they're probably gonna know this.
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But um, if you can both uh give us kind of a a sum up uh in one line, what Agent Force Contact Center actually is, what is the real market shift of this?
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And and and Zeus, I'll I'll go to you first on that one, please.
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Sure.
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So Agent Force Contact Center is uh Salesforce is entering into the contact center market.
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I think they're addressing the issue that most companies have today and that they're trying to improve customer experience, but they're dealing with a lot of fragmented silos of data.
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And so they brought together, and I think you one could argue it's the first fully converged, like at a platform level, um uh software that brings together CRM, customer interactions, and AI together.
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And, you know, in data sciences is an axiom where we say good data leads to good insights, but for silos of data leads to fragmented insights.
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And that's it, that's what I think companies are facing with a lot today.
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Uh, you know, a lot of the way so I think this, what Salesforce is trying to do is fundamentally redefine customer experience and how you look at it as a single stack versus the coming together as several stacks.
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That's really concise.
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Dave, over to you.
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Well, I think I understand why I'm being called the pessimist.
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Um the uh the question was what is Agent Force?
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Is that what you asked?
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Is that is that accurate?
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And what's the market shift?
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Uh well the yeah, the market shift is exactly the right the right question.
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Uh uh Agent Force is a desperate attempt uh for Salesforce to both remain relevant and maintain its revenue.
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And um it might work, it but uh uh there's a fairly significant pivot here.
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And and the pivot really is that the Salesforce Empire was built around CRM and they've done a fantastic job building the CRM.
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Uh the CRM is now obsolete and or becoming or rapidly becoming obsolete.
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And so the problem is trying to pivot.
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And it's gonna be a tricky battle because where it's pivoting to is not well defined, and there's a lot of competitive forces pivoting to the same place.
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Nice.
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Okay, so we've actually got quite a nice, concise we've got on one hand, we've got a revolution going on, and on the other, we've got a fight to stay relevant.
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So this is ACE.
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Let's talk about this then.
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So um I want to first of all, for the kind of first part of this, I want to kind of look at this through more the kind of the business issues, the human impact of this uh approach.
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Um we'll come on to technology later.
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I know you both love talking about technology, but we're gonna have to save that for the second half.
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Um so so let's let's kick off um with um and then and first going to you, uh Zias.
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Um where are CX operations or contact centers uh feeling uh the pressure most right now?
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Well, we're likely feeling the pressure, really.
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Uh, you know, the the reality is that despite all the innovation that we've had, most contacts interaction center interactions still aren't very good.
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And I think most contact centers are, you know, getting or are drowning in fragmentation cow, right?
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So I think I read on CX today that only 3% operate on a single unified platform.
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I'd be surprised if it's that high.
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Um, while most companies manage four or five different technologies.
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And so when I talk to contact center leaders, probably a good half of them say that this for the fragmentation they have increases maintenance costs, creates training problems, uh, a lot of data increases consistency, and you wind up making the human the integration point for the technology.
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And whenever we've done that for in any technology, when the human is the integration point, things fall apart.
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And so today, with AI being such a key focus, as I mentioned before, right, silos of data lead to uh to fragmented insights.
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And I think this is where companies have to be very careful.
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You don't want to have your CRM telling an agent one thing and your contact center telling an agent another thing, and your workforce management tool telling, telling, you know, uh yet a third thing.
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And so um I think um despite the investments that companies have made in AI, I think a lot of contact center leaders I've talked to say that the conversations have become more challenging uh because the disconnected systems prevent agents from having the context that need to resolve issues quickly.
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And so you might have a different info.
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And like I said, you know, if you want to sum up the pain in one word, it's or in one sentence, it's the fact that people are still the integration point for the technology.
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It needs to become a platform.
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And I I think that's you know where uh we've always had the pain and we continue to Okay, Dave, over to you.
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Well, wait a minute now.
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I just gotta say, he said not to talk about technology.
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I heard AI platforms integrations.
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That was a that was a pretty bad answer, ZS.
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I don't I don't think you get credit for that one.
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Uh best partial credit.
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Your turn then, Dave.
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You go.
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All right.
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So the the base the basic challenge hasn't changed in, you know, since we've since the birth of the customer, since the birth of the business.
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I don't know what's in first.
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But the uh uh how do you how do you how do you manage the customer?
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How do you manage that customer relationship?
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And how do you build loyalty?
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How do you build the ability to be proactive?
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How do you do that in a cost effective way?
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How do you do that uh uh in a way that could possibly even increase revenue and so and build loyalty?
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Um, and so those are the challenges, they haven't changed.
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What has changed is the options on the menu about which way to go with that.
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And so that's when we get into the technology shift, and we're seeing uh fairly significant technology shift.
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And for the past, I don't know, I don't know how old CRM is.
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The S.
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You know how CRM goes back, what, 20 years?
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Uh I don't know.
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At least 20 years.
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Well, SAP was around in 2000, right?
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So okay, so so the whole idea of CRM was a beautiful vision.
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You know, use advanced software to manage the customer relationship, put all kinds of data in it, and we will um uh harvest this data in ways that could drive loyalty and drive revenue and do it cost effectively.
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Well, all that has proven to be untrue.
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I mean, that they it it it's not good at at managing the data.
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It hasn't improved the customer relationship, it hasn't done it cost effectively, and and so, but it's all we had.
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It was the only thing on the menu.
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And so we built these whole um architectures with the CRM in the middle.
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And so you've got companies like Salesforce, which is one of the bigger ones, that has that big chunk in the middle, and everybody else kind of connects to it.
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And they they use terms like source of truth, but that's not really the right term.
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It's it's a it's a portion of stale truth, is what they have in there.
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And and and it's become very expensive.
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So now we have AI, and AI is disrupting everything.
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Everything.
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And I I I don't know how to make that point more clearly.
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I keep on saying making that point, and I think it's so obvious, and people say, well, it's not affecting me.
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It is affecting you, it's affecting everything.
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I mean, everything, and it's certainly affecting software, and it's certainly affecting business models, it's certainly affecting how we manage data, it's certainly affecting how we integrate data, it's everything.
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And so one of the things that's happening in the CRM world is that the uh the seat license is going to die.
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And uh that's a big threat to revenue.
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And it's a the seat license is effectively a bet against your customer's efficiency.
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And so you're supposedly giving the customer tools to be more efficient, and if they become more efficient, they're gonna pay less.
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That's a that's a flawed, broken model.
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And so, and so the CRM companies have a lot to lose.
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And the main thing they're gonna lose is that CRM centric view of customer relationship.
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And so that's the that's why I say it's a pivot.
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That's why I say this is a um uh uh uh yeah, a pivot or even a panic to become to remain relevant.
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And so they have to build new solutions.
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Okay, so on on one hand we've got existing stuff, existing stacks that are fragmented.
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Uh and on the other hand, we've got um we've got the you know, the setups are too complicated, but too many options, and these are the challenges right now.
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So let's talk about that.
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I think the question is what what becomes the system of record, right?
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And so I do think software changes the way license change, but it doesn't stop the fact that CRM is table primarily a system of record for most companies.
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And the I I think AI changes the way you view it.
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Um I do think one of the problems Salesforce had historically, if you look at their initial release of Einstein, AI didn't work very well because the data in Salesforce for a lot of companies isn't very good.
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I think it's an interesting thing to think about that with AI taking notes now for salespeople, contact center agents, it can actually populate better data into the CRM.
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And so while AI is the thing that might expose the weakness of the CRM, it's also the thing that could actually populate the data.
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And so when people say SaaS is dead, I think that's a grossly over-exaggerated concept.
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I think the interface we use is likely going to change, but the data in it remains important because it's the thing that feeds around.
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You almost got that right, Zias.
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Like I you're so close.
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I I really, I really appreciate you get making the effort.
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But but let's clarify something here.
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You see, the the data in the CRM, as you pointed out, is often stale and it's often incomplete.
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Most of that data comes from customer conversations.
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And so the way it's been for the past 20 years is the contact center was CRM's bitch, right?
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So basically, the CRM didn't have access to the conversation.
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So it had to ask the contacts because it doesn't want to deal with contact.
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That's hard, that's hard stuff.
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It's real time's hard stuff.
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Let's let's outsource that out to the contact center.
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We'll have them go and key in all these little menu codes.
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What was the call about?
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What did the customer want?
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What what school does the uh uh kid, the client's kid go to, you know, all these little things.
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We'll capture all that into the CRM.
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Well, the CRM, and so and so Zias, you made the point, you know, who's gonna be the system of record?
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The the reality is system of record is a is a misnomer.
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It's it's singular.
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There's gonna be lots of systems of records.
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There's gonna be ERP systems, there's gonna be shipping systems, there's gonna be ticketing systems, there's gonna be all kinds of systems.
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So what really matters is how you get the various sources, plural, of truth.
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Which is why it's the also both the world contact center.
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You're bringing the city of the city.
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And so that half that data in the CRM is coming from conversations with the customer.
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Probably more than half the data.
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That's so all of a sudden, generative AI doesn't mean that the contact center has to be uh CRM's bitch anymore.
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Now the contact center can capture that own their own conversation data.
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Now, when you want to know why customers are calling, instead of going to a CRM and running a report on stale data that was probably uh inaccurately keyed in, you go to the C the contact center directly and you ask, why are people calling?
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Why are people calling today?
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Why are people calling at this moment?
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And it can give you a fairly accurate presentation of that information.
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Let's bring it back to the people that are impacted by the tech.
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Because I'm really keen to kind of focus on, we've got the leaders to talk about.
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And I think the people in the operations who are managing the teams that are looking after those customers, uh, who are at the end of the day, the kind of the important guys.
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Um they're experiencing issues right now with the complicated tech stacks, as you as you pointed out.
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What what does that pain look like?
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What what what are we trying to what whatever the uh opinion is around this particular technology, what what do we think the um the attempt to improve is?
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What are they trying to remove, what are they trying to make better?
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Because that I think that's really important to see and and and kind of highlight.
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Well, that's kind of what I was answering.
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I mean, if you want to understand why people are calling, what what customers are interested in in solving, or even even uh if it's not real-time data, just trying to understand which customers are are due for a proactive poll or something like that, uh, all that information is basically mining your different data sources.
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One of those data sources, one of the bigger ones, is of course is of course your interactive conversations with customers, which could be texts, emails, all kinds of stuff.
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But the other thing, there's, you know, uh, did they do a return recently, maybe check the different systems like that?
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So getting accurate information.
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And so the way the CRM has done that is it collect tries to collect this information and it's incomplete, and it's a fancy database, and then you have to run special reports and you have to, you know, hire somebody to make a report for you.
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And you know, that then we get into the whole uh TPS reports uh um uh cover page and all kinds of stuff like that.
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So so the the issue is is that generative AI is disrupting all this.
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So we don't know where this is gonna land.
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There's a lot of variables here, but the idea that you could just ask in natural language, who do I need to call today?
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What's the issues going on on the East Coast today?
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And and get real-time responses that's much more accurate than we've had before.
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So so what we're finding is that the conversations are becoming much more valuable than they were, and the contact center has those conversations.
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The contact center doesn't necessarily want to give that data anymore to the CRM because it just gets stale and old there.
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And and so then and the CRM understands this, which is why they're pivoting to try to become contact centers.
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Understood.
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Yeah, I think, you know, the term simplified the stacks is an interesting one because a lot of us look at it from the technology point of view.
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And I I think, you know, from the context of what we're talking about, we really should be talking more about the people issue, right?
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And so there's the obvious hidden cost of you know, maintaining the software APIs, all the you know, the software costs that we do that.
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But I think from a people perspective, um the the what Salesforce is trying to address is the overhead that the agents face in having the contact switch all the time.
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And so, you know, for my research, frontline agents spend at least 20 to 30 percent of their time just switching between applications.
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Supervisors then can't get that single source street to understand how productive people are.
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And then there's you know, all the other issues with poor service to customers and things like that.
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And so I I think you know, what Salesforce done here, this isn't about consolidation, you know, for its own sake.
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It's about removing the friction that make customer service feel like they're always trying to assemble, you know, you know, like here furniture with instructions in three languages here.
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So I I think it's um, you know, eventually, you know, I suppose they could have bought somebody or something, but I I think the way we've done this in the past where we try and bring together the different sources of data, you know, through these different APIs and connections and stuff, it's fair to say it's not really ever worked because you know, we all call contact centers, and how often do you leave saying that it's a great experience?
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And so, you know, like like I said, when it comes to simplified stack, we always look at it from the technology point of view, but I think it's important to look at it from the people point of view because they're the ones that feel the real pain, and then the customers are the ones that suffer off on the back end of it.
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So it's a great it's a great summary, yeah.
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Uh uh it makes sense.
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Um, I guess we should get into the technology a little bit more then.
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So um I think I I'm really I I really liked uh your point, Zius, around uh eliminating what you called the integration tax.
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Um can you kind of just for our audience explain um what that is and what must be true for that to be something that's happening in the contact sector?
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Yeah, I think the integration gas and thought it was the ongoing costs in you can take them in dollars, time, and opportunity of forcing disparate systems to share data that frankly they were never designed to share natively.
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:39.119
So um if you bring all together in a single, in a single platform, you can eliminate that by making voice, digital channels, AI, agents, CRM operating from the same underlying platform.
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:41.759
The key there is the unified data model, right?
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:55.680
And so you don't have any API in the middle where when one vendor, you know, when you when you have partners working together, when one vendor changes, then you know, there's uh there's always a revision behind because the other vendor needs to go change their APIs and things like that.
00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.839
So um, but I think for this to be real, three things have to be true, right?
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:08.559
And the first is customer data must flow without having to transform it or duplicate it across different interaction types because when you do that, you create the agency.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:15.359
Second, AI and human agents must share identical context without any kind of handoff friction, right?
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:23.680
And so we've always struggled to do that and um you know have that single source of truth that whether you want to call it that or not.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:32.480
And then lastly, the platform must eliminate the need for you know for different vendors to provide routing quality management, workforce optimization, analytics.
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:38.480
And um, you know, granted Salesforce still has to build some of those things, but that's the goal behind it, right?
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:53.119
They're not trying to bolt onto their CRM, they're trying to architect it natively where that system of record data already lives in order to get rid of that that integration tax that's multifaceted, as I said.
00:20:53.440 --> 00:21:02.640
So and Dave, I'm sure you've got an argument, the a counterpoint or at least for that.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:08.400
Well, no, I I I uh the integration tax is definitely gonna go away.
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:09.839
It's been a big problem.
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:15.200
Um in the future, you won't really log into a CRN.
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:28.960
Uh you'll interact with an AI agent that lives in your communication stack and and uh uh the data will be uh uh presented to you as necessary when you need it.
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:33.119
And uh I I think we all know where we're heading.
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.079
We don't know quite when we're gonna get there.
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:50.160
Um I I I don't think that the um uh I don't think that you know the the argument of you know uh uh I I I said earlier that it's not gonna be a single source of truth.
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:51.839
There never has been and never will be.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:57.680
We've been silo busting in IT for you know 30 years, whatever it's been.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:59.759
And they're we we build them faster than.
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:06.880
And so we're always going to have data silos of what's going to be what's going to be important is to figure out how to integrate these things.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.920
And the way we've integrated in the past hasn't been working.
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:14.640
And so we believe that AI will allow us to pull this together a little better.
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:18.640
Now, I keep on saying things are moving, things are changing.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:27.839
I mean, the amount of uh innovation occurring in the big models and the big AI story, it's unbelievable how fast things are changing.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:31.279
I do my monthly report, and the monthly report used to be a lot shorter.
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:36.000
It's just so much activity is is is um happening right now.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:42.559
Uh the models that we're or the AI that we're using today is radically different than it was six months ago.
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.319
And it takes six months to implement anything.
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.000
And so whatever you start implementing today is going to be very different when you finish it.
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.680
It's and so and so we don't know quite where this is all gonna land.
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:57.519
One of the things we don't know, and there's a big assumption, is that the cost of AI is gonna keep going down.
00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:00.079
Uh, we don't know if that's true anymore.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:04.720
Uh the demand for AI is increasing faster than the capacity is increasing.
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:06.559
That means there might be a shortage.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:08.960
Shortages usually mean prices go up.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:13.440
And so uh that's gonna be a problem for anybody doing a perceit license model.
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:19.039
Um uh and that's why I think the perceit license model is gonna have to go away.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.599
So there's gonna be there's all kinds of unknowns.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:28.480
We don't know how much better the AI is gonna get, we don't know much faster it's gonna get, we don't know what it's gonna cost, and we don't know quite what it's gonna do.
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:38.319
But we know it's moving very, very quickly, and we know that software and CRMs in particular are uh a falling knife.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:40.720
And so if you want to try to catch that, you go ahead.
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:58.240
And um uh and so it's a great time to be in the contact center space because uh they're not being they are being impacted by by um uh the depth of software, but not nearly as much because uh they're also on the leading edge of this.
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:09.680
They're they're gonna have to move from a perceived model, but um they're but managing the real-time network and the conversations and the integrations are a little different than just by coding.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:13.200
So um it'll it'll be an interesting journey for sure, though.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:20.400
I think all the software vendors, I don't care what states they're in, have to think about making this H3 utilization-based model.
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.960
Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you challenged on that, because let me explain that.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:34.559
The uh the the reason why the CCAS vendors are in a better spot is because they can deliver an ROI that eliminates the CRM vendors.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:35.680
They're not quite there yet.
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:41.759
Some of them are, some of them aren't quite there yet, but they have to add a little more functionality around customer profiles and stuff like that.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:47.920
But but if they can eliminate the cost of a CRM, their ROI becomes very compelling.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.880
The CRM vendors, they're not trying to eliminate the CRM cost.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:55.440
They're trying to add CCAS on top of it.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:58.799
They have an impossible ROI mission ahead of them.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:03.759
And so uh this is why this is why the CCAS vendors are in a much better position.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:05.440
That that might be the worst takeover.
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:09.119
You can't, you, you can't you can't eliminate the CRM vendors.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:15.039
Well, I mean, the CCAS vendors could if they build their own CRM capabilities.
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:19.920
But I mean, that is uh I mean you you talk about the complexity of building the global voice network.
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:29.680
It's equally complex to build, you know, a system of record that keeps track of every customer they'll actually understand CRMs aren't just used for service, right?
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:32.319
We think of it that way in the context of our space.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:38.799
There's the entire sales and marketing aspect of it, top of funnel all the way to bottom of funnel to customer service, right?
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.359
CRMs are used from first mouse click through product retirement.
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:49.680
And the the CCAT vendors address the very back half of that, but certainly not the front end of that.
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:54.400
Yeah, no, I I I understand and agree with what you're saying.
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:56.720
I just think that the model's changing.
00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:05.920
That the that in fact, as you pointed out, Zia, as you said, most customers interact with contact centers and customer service and some kind, they're not happy with it.
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:14.079
The CRM model, the CRM promise of improving that customer relationship really hasn't delivered and it's become very, very expensive.
00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:21.359
So what's instead going to happen is we're gonna revalue, uh, reevaluate how we do this uh customer relationship management.
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.920
It's like it's like the cut the customer relationship's not gonna go away.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:28.319
When I say the CRM is gonna go away, it's it's like it's like when the digital camera came out.
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:33.359
Um the digital camera replaced the film camera, but it didn't replace pictures, right?
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.720
So the customer relationship is still going to be there, still gonna be important.
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.440
Um, but how we photograph it is going to be very different.
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:44.960
And the CRM has just become uh an unruly database.
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:52.160
It's a very expensive database, and what a large part of its value is around the agent desktop or the desktop UI.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:57.680
And we've already seen, you know, what Salesforce announced headless, which was just, you know, that's a that's a that's a laugh.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:02.000
So they've already they've already announced, well, we'll get rid of part of this part of our value.
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:05.680
They didn't say they're gonna get rid of that part of the price, though, but they're gonna get rid of that part of the value.
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:06.799
But that's their problem.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:08.400
They have to maintain their revenue.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:16.319
And they're not gonna be able to maintain their revenue, which means that they're gonna be in constant mode of layoffs while they're trying to build CCAS.
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:18.160
That's gonna be a tough business.
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.920
Now, some of them, the big ones or the smart ones, might be able to pull that off.
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:23.519
A lot of them won't.
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:29.920
But CCAS vendors, on the other hand, don't have to do that much more to add a little more customer profile information.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:35.759
I just wrote, and I did a recent post, Amazon already has it, uh, NICE already has it.
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:41.680
Um in fact, the the guy leading the Nice effort, he built the dynamics uh uh product at Microsoft.
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:47.759
So so they they know they kind of know what they need to build, and they're gonna build it in an AI first new model.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.720
Yeah, and uh they're gonna do it at a much lower cost.
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:52.480
They don't have it across the customer journey.
00:27:52.559 --> 00:28:07.759
And this is the problem that, well, really every vendor of the customer experience, from Adobe to you know Salesforce to NICE, is nobody really understands customer journey because as I said, that starts at first mouse click and ends at product target.
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:14.400
And the uh the the Adobe's the world are very good at the front end of that chain.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:17.839
The CCAS vendors are very good at the back end of it.
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:24.960
You know, I think it's arguable that CRM is the only one that looks across both, but you still need the data from all aspects of that.
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:27.359
So I don't I don't think sales are finished here.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:32.640
I I think they're they're the ones, you know, you know, they built the CCAS, but you know, they they've got to build along.
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.960
You know, I'm sure there's more coming from them.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.200
So just to be able to get it.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:40.880
Yeah, so so when you start off with where what is Asian Forest?
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:42.319
So they're trying to build a CCAS.
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:45.279
It'll take them a couple years to get to the basics.
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:49.839
It'll take them a couple more years to get it uh Fed cer Fed Ramp certified.
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:54.640
It'll take them a couple more years to get it five five nine uh reliable.
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:57.680
I mean, and so they got a hell of a journey ahead of them.
00:28:57.920 --> 00:28:59.039
They'll they'll get there.
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:00.960
Yeah, they got the you know, they'll get there.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:04.160
They're gonna have to do that all, of course, while baling water.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.759
But that's you know, it's a whole nother conversation, uh, which we've already touched on.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:14.720
So um, but but but you made a really good point there, Zias, which is what we're building, we don't quite know.
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:19.039
We don't really understand what we're building yet, and we're building it with uh wet paint, right?
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:22.400
I mean, it's like this is all it's all changing very, very quickly.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:27.200
And so I do not bel but we do know a few a few things for sure.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.599
We know that AI is getting better and better.
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:34.400
We know that conversations are becoming more and more important and that we can mine more data out of them.
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.680
We know that integrations are becoming much easier with AI.
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:42.960
And I don't believe for a second that any enterprise is ever going to have a single source of truth.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:44.480
Never has, never will.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:53.920
Um and uh and so I think we can we could have we're finally in a position to build a solution that doesn't need or assume that.
00:29:54.400 --> 00:30:04.319
Dave, you've you've touched on um reliability there specific and you've called out like comparing this to Five Nines reliability, you know, the functional depth that they've got.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.680
That's a challenge that you've that you've kind of mentioned previously.
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.720
I'd like you to kind of go into a bit more detail on that.
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:21.279
What what are the what are those non-negotiables that you know have to stack up in order for you know a vendor to be able to provide a proper contact center solution?
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:27.359
Well, then that's all the stuff that the contact center industry, the CCAS providers, the CCAS leaders have been building for years, right?
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:32.000
So, you know, we talk about 5.9, there's the 5.9 metric and there's the 5.9 provider.
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:37.119
And for a long time, the 5.9 provider did not meet the 5.9 metric, but now they have for years now.
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:41.759
And so that but but it was an it was an aspirational goal at first, but it takes time to build this stuff.
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:43.200
It's really hard to do.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:45.279
Um, and you can't vibecode it, right?
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.519
And so, and so it took Amazon.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:53.039
I mean, Amazon built uh Connect, and they actually had uh real-time expertise in-house.
00:30:53.200 --> 00:31:02.640
They are, they are, they up, they had these capabilities in-house, and it still took them somewhere around two or three years to uh to kind of get that kind of stabilized for the contact center.
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:04.319
Uh, Salesforce has none of that.
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:09.039
I mean, Salesforce needed to add little video to Slack, and they had to hire Amazon to do that.
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:12.799
So um so they're starting from scratch.
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:18.240
I I don't really understand why Salesforce didn't acquire somebody, but they chose not to, and that's their toy, that's their decision.
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:21.200
So it's gonna take them some time to build reliable network.
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:22.240
So, what do they have to build?
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:27.039
They have to build Omnichannel, and Omnichannel is keeps on getting more omni, as we say.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:28.960
It just keeps on adding more channels.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:42.240
Well, the latest one is RCFs, but you know, you've got all these things from WhatsApp to uh text messaging to uh to voice, um, all kinds of I don't know how many channels there are down in the modern contact center, 10, something like that.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:49.519
Uh, and they all have to be reliable, they have to be recorded, they have to be uh uh available for uh uh groups.
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:54.559
Uh you've got to build the the 5.9 reliability, which is a very hard thing to do.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:32:02.880
You've got to build um uh distribution model around different countries, which and some countries are very restrictive about how you could bring in communication services.
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:10.480
You've got to build a partner uh network, you've got to build uh partners that can actually not only sell it, but actually implement it and support it.
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:11.759
And this all takes time.
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:13.920
I mean, how long will it take Salesforce to do this?
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:14.720
A while.
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:15.759
It's gonna be a while.
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:21.119
Not to mention none of their none of their existing, or a few of their existing partners, know how to do any of this stuff.
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:24.720
And so on that, Z, because I'm just conscious of time.
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:26.640
I'd like to get your counter to that.
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:28.640
Do can Salesforce do that do any of this?
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:29.359
Yeah, you're right.
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:33.359
They didn't have the talent, but they actually went and hired a lot of the people from Amazon that book was there.
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:44.000
And um, you know, you're uh uh you know, I get they're new in the market, but you're in fact the post you wrote basically said if you're late in a market, you should never enter a market.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:46.720
And you know, Zoom went through this, Amazon went through this.
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:52.880
I mean, Zoom built one from zero to you know full-fledged contact center in like three years.
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:56.480
And I you look at the path they took, they didn't acquire somebody.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:58.559
They tried to buy five lines that fell apart.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:06.480
But if you ask anybody at Zoom, they're much better off having built their own stack, you know, than trying to buy a legacy one where you'd have to modernize it.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:11.119
But the difference there, the the difference there, ZS, is that Zoom is a real-time communications company.
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:14.000
They they have experience and capability in doing this.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:18.000
And they knew they know how to do UI and they already had all these skills.
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:19.680
But but but your point is fair.
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:20.000
Yeah.
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:24.000
But sales folks did go and hire a number of the people from Connecticut who do that.
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:27.039
I do think uh also a lot of the other things that you need.
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:35.359
Elon Musk hired a bunch of really expensive AI professionals and they lasted for a whole six months until they came up with the But you know it uh it doesn't hiring doesn't solve it.
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:39.119
Like you've got to build a team, you've got to build a strategy, you've got to build a vision, you've got to execute.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:41.119
This is not easy and trivial stuff.
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:44.160
Yeah, but Salesforce already has a lot of the components you need.
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:46.319
They they do have most of the channels.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:49.680
Uh they have quality management, morphology optimization.
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:54.319
Uh they they they're they they do have conversational intelligence from their own AI.
00:33:54.559 --> 00:34:05.440
Um, and so you know, the they do have to go build up their telephony network, which I'm not gonna uh, you know, uh uh understate the complexity that that rings.
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:13.920
But the the you know, the bigger question, I guess, isn't whether and this is an interesting thing to think about for the industry.
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:34.400
What does Salesforce actually have to match the 20-year-old feature list that was built pre-AI, or how many of those features won't matter in the post-AI world where a lot of the tier goal inquiries can be handled without you know routing trees and all your the the the stuff that happens at the back end, right?
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:50.239
And so I think here's a case where the all the new entrants, and through Amazon and Zoom and Win Central CX in there as well, aren't as worried about trying to get rid of the phone, like they say the best call you can have is the one that never happens, right?
00:34:50.559 --> 00:35:11.840
And um, you know, the new entrants in the space and I throw sales work in there, can be a lot more aggressive in trying to redefine customer experience than the than what is with the big shares today, because they stand to lose a lot, you know, if um you know interactions fall through the floor because you're handling them in a much different way, right?
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:21.119
And so that's interesting thing to think about is like if Salesforce comes in this market and just tries to be exactly what everybody else is, I think that's the wrong approach.
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:27.199
They got to really rethink interactions and how we can do it in a different way, right?
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:30.239
And that's larger than Amazon's done, and they've had a lot of support.
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:32.480
You know, yeah, yes, you're absolutely right.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:33.440
I've been too critical.
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:41.760
The uh the CRM vendors, they've they've done a fantastic job of building an incredible business and empire around software that doesn't work.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:46.880
And so, and so I think that you're right, that they we should give them a little bit of credit and patience.
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:49.440
I actually have no doubt that they can build this.
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:50.480
I want to be clear about that.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:51.760
They actually can build it.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:55.599
The question is, can they do it in a way that preserves the revenue, which is their objective?
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:57.199
And I don't believe they can do that.
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:01.199
And I think that's where we're gonna see a lot of disruption from other new vendors.
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:05.360
Not all, not only CCAS providers, but other providers that are moving into that.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.199
I mean, that's true of every software vendor right now.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:12.000
Is AI gonna, you know, I that's why Wall Street's so you know bearish on software in general.
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:15.119
I mean, all the CCAT vendors are way down too.
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:23.920
So Okay, so I'm afraid we we I mean, I don't think we're ever gonna agree uh on this, um, but that's okay.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:27.440
Um and we've run out of time very, very nearly.
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:33.039
It feels to me that we've got a situation where AI is basically leveling a playing field, isn't it?
00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:38.320
And everyone's trying to do their best to get on that playing field, however it might look.
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:48.800
And people are adapting, people are evolving, people are acquiring, but ultimately it's going to be very interesting to see where everybody ends up uh and and when they get there, I think to your point, Dice.
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:53.199
And I I want I just want to say, I don't think we disagree as much as you think that we do.
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:58.400
I think I think we both, I think in fact Salesforce and most of the CCAS providers have a very similar vision.
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:00.639
I think they're all kind of moving toward the same place.
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:02.400
The question is, how do you get there?
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:03.840
And that's that's where the differences are.
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:07.679
How do you get there and and uh and what and what do you charge for it?
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:09.599
I think that's that's really where the issues are.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:10.079
Yeah.
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:17.519
I think I think one thing that's been misunderstood though is Salesforce didn't do this to just launch a competitive CCAS product, right?
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:24.880
So they are trying to create a an architectural reckoning, if you will, of CX, right?
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:30.159
Where CIOs today have to justify paying an immigration tax to maintain separate systems.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:34.239
There's a lot of there's a pretty heavy lift on the on the agents, even still.
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:39.199
Uh, we've made it a little bit easier with agent uh you know recommendation tools and things like that.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:44.880
So they have they have a lot a lot, they have a lot of money, they have a lot of skill, and they have a business model that's obsolete.
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:49.039
So if they're gonna pivot as fast as they can, and they and they're doing it, they're doing a good job of it.
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:56.079
Wait, but there's a you know, there's a lot of money to be made in um in cutting costs, right?
00:37:56.159 --> 00:38:00.639
Cutting the costs of agents, but there's more to be made if you can help companies think of new revenue in the models.
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:12.639
And I think this is where Salesforce is, you know, they they understand um you know kind of the customer journey better than most C C CAT vendors will.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.639
It'll be interesting to see if it forces the hand about the C CAT vendors.
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:19.440
I predict that you will see Zoo eventually move to CRM.
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.079
You know, I think that's the one piece of the stack with Dervison.
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:25.119
So um, you know, I I I think you heard it.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:26.239
We heard it here first.
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:27.679
I can't lead with that.
00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:30.639
I can't leave with that as a headline when you heard it here first.
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:34.159
Unfortunately, that is that is all the all the time we've got uh gents.
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:39.519
Uh Zias, Dave, thanks so much uh for again for joining me and answering all my questions.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:52.239
Um I I think before we close though, just for anyone who's watching this, um who might be interested in kind of following your thoughts and opinions on on similar or other subjects, what what's the best way for them to find out more, get in touch with you?
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:53.760
Dave, do you want to go first?
00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:58.400
Uh you can find me and my content at talkingpoints.com.
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:01.840
That's uh with a Z or a Z on the end uh for you, Rob.
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:05.519
Um and uh yeah, everything's there, talkingpoints.com.
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:12.800
Yeah, for me, just go to zkresearch.com or ZK, depending if you're in the US or not, or just uh uh follow me on LinkedIn.
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:16.000
That uh pretty active feed um every day.
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:18.000
So awesome.
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:24.400
And and don't forget, you can also find a wealth of related resources, stories, and videos at cxttoday.com.
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:26.079
Um so that does wrap everything up.
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:28.000
I've been Rob Wilkinson from CX Today.
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:29.760
Thanks very much for joining us.
00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:08.880
Hello and welcome.
00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:16.079
I'm Rob Wilkinson, and today we're taking a closer look at the recent Salesforce launch of the Agent Force Contact Center.
00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:21.600
And we're asking what that might mean for the future shape of customer experience.
00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:26.960
This launch of Agent Force Contact Centre has definitely created a lot of debate.
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:34.000
Safe to say there's a wide range of different opinions, often dividing sort of the analysts' commentary online.
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:47.759
So on one side, I'm seeing optimists who see this as a genuine shift in how customer service could run with AI moving from an add-on to something closer to a default execution layer.
00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:55.280
On the other hand, we've got the skeptics who see promise in this as an approach, but actually a lot of risk as well.
00:00:55.520 --> 00:01:09.280
So, particularly when we look at whether a new approach like this can match the reliability, the maturity operationally, or the depth that contact centers depend on, uh, like we have with a lot of the legacy vendors.
00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:12.480
So, today I'm joined by two analysts.
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:17.680
They've both been quoted recently on this story uh from different sides of the opinion.
00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:22.159
Um, Zeus Caravalla from ZK Research representing the Optimists.
00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:26.000
Uh, welcome, Zeus and Dave Michaels from Talking Points.
00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:28.719
That's with a Zed, uh, representing the skeptics.
00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:30.480
Gentlemen, great to have you on.
00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:31.680
Thanks very much for joining me.
00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:35.359
I think that sums up uh the way we look at life too.
00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:47.840
I was I was trying to play uh play that through my head, but I'm not sure I'm a I'm I guess I'm a pessimist in many ways, but as far as uh Contact Center goes, I think it's it's a great time.
00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:52.799
So I'm not sure I feel uh I should be considered a pessimist regarding the contact center.
00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:53.680
Okay.
00:01:54.159 --> 00:02:01.359
So we'll go with um we'll go with uh considered opinion then rather than that particular one.
00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:02.799
Um but that's okay.
00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:11.439
Um I think um to try and get the audience on track in what we're talking about here, just in I mean, unless they've been under a rock, they they're probably gonna know this.
00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:23.360
But um, if you can both uh give us kind of a a sum up uh in one line, what Agent Force Contact Center actually is, what is the real market shift of this?
00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:26.560
And and and Zeus, I'll I'll go to you first on that one, please.
00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:27.199
Sure.
00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:32.560
So Agent Force Contact Center is uh Salesforce is entering into the contact center market.
00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:45.120
I think they're addressing the issue that most companies have today and that they're trying to improve customer experience, but they're dealing with a lot of fragmented silos of data.
00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:59.199
And so they brought together, and I think you one could argue it's the first fully converged, like at a platform level, um uh software that brings together CRM, customer interactions, and AI together.
00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:06.960
And, you know, in data sciences is an axiom where we say good data leads to good insights, but for silos of data leads to fragmented insights.
00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:09.840
And that's it, that's what I think companies are facing with a lot today.
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:22.960
Uh, you know, a lot of the way so I think this, what Salesforce is trying to do is fundamentally redefine customer experience and how you look at it as a single stack versus the coming together as several stacks.
00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:25.039
That's really concise.
00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:26.479
Dave, over to you.
00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.159
Well, I think I understand why I'm being called the pessimist.
00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:36.159
Um the uh the question was what is Agent Force?
00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:36.800
Is that what you asked?
00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:37.680
Is that is that accurate?
00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:39.439
And what's the market shift?
00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.759
Uh well the yeah, the market shift is exactly the right the right question.
00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:55.759
Uh uh Agent Force is a desperate attempt uh for Salesforce to both remain relevant and maintain its revenue.
00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:04.000
And um it might work, it but uh uh there's a fairly significant pivot here.
00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:15.039
And and the pivot really is that the Salesforce Empire was built around CRM and they've done a fantastic job building the CRM.
00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:22.079
Uh the CRM is now obsolete and or becoming or rapidly becoming obsolete.
00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:24.560
And so the problem is trying to pivot.
00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:36.399
And it's gonna be a tricky battle because where it's pivoting to is not well defined, and there's a lot of competitive forces pivoting to the same place.
00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:38.560
Nice.
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:47.920
Okay, so we've actually got quite a nice, concise we've got on one hand, we've got a revolution going on, and on the other, we've got a fight to stay relevant.
00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:49.519
So this is ACE.
00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:51.120
Let's talk about this then.
00:04:51.360 --> 00:05:02.240
So um I want to first of all, for the kind of first part of this, I want to kind of look at this through more the kind of the business issues, the human impact of this uh approach.
00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:04.000
Um we'll come on to technology later.
00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:07.600
I know you both love talking about technology, but we're gonna have to save that for the second half.
00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:14.079
Um so so let's let's kick off um with um and then and first going to you, uh Zias.
00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:22.160
Um where are CX operations or contact centers uh feeling uh the pressure most right now?
00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:26.240
Well, we're likely feeling the pressure, really.
00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:35.279
Uh, you know, the the reality is that despite all the innovation that we've had, most contacts interaction center interactions still aren't very good.
00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:41.680
And I think most contact centers are, you know, getting or are drowning in fragmentation cow, right?
00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:46.240
So I think I read on CX today that only 3% operate on a single unified platform.
00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.240
I'd be surprised if it's that high.
00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:52.639
Um, while most companies manage four or five different technologies.
00:05:52.720 --> 00:06:11.759
And so when I talk to contact center leaders, probably a good half of them say that this for the fragmentation they have increases maintenance costs, creates training problems, uh, a lot of data increases consistency, and you wind up making the human the integration point for the technology.
00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:17.680
And whenever we've done that for in any technology, when the human is the integration point, things fall apart.
00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:27.839
And so today, with AI being such a key focus, as I mentioned before, right, silos of data lead to uh to fragmented insights.
00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:30.399
And I think this is where companies have to be very careful.
00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:39.920
You don't want to have your CRM telling an agent one thing and your contact center telling an agent another thing, and your workforce management tool telling, telling, you know, uh yet a third thing.
00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:58.399
And so um I think um despite the investments that companies have made in AI, I think a lot of contact center leaders I've talked to say that the conversations have become more challenging uh because the disconnected systems prevent agents from having the context that need to resolve issues quickly.
00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:00.079
And so you might have a different info.
00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:09.439
And like I said, you know, if you want to sum up the pain in one word, it's or in one sentence, it's the fact that people are still the integration point for the technology.
00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:11.680
It needs to become a platform.
00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:18.879
And I I think that's you know where uh we've always had the pain and we continue to Okay, Dave, over to you.
00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:20.000
Well, wait a minute now.
00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:22.480
I just gotta say, he said not to talk about technology.
00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:24.879
I heard AI platforms integrations.
00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.040
That was a that was a pretty bad answer, ZS.
00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:28.720
I don't I don't think you get credit for that one.
00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:30.399
Uh best partial credit.
00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:31.759
Your turn then, Dave.
00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:32.160
You go.
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:32.800
All right.
00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:39.600
So the the base the basic challenge hasn't changed in, you know, since we've since the birth of the customer, since the birth of the business.
00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:40.959
I don't know what's in first.
00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:47.519
But the uh uh how do you how do you how do you manage the customer?
00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:50.000
How do you manage that customer relationship?
00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:52.480
And how do you build loyalty?
00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:55.600
How do you build the ability to be proactive?
00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:58.639
How do you do that in a cost effective way?
00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:06.959
How do you do that uh uh in a way that could possibly even increase revenue and so and build loyalty?
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:10.639
Um, and so those are the challenges, they haven't changed.
00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:17.839
What has changed is the options on the menu about which way to go with that.
00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:24.319
And so that's when we get into the technology shift, and we're seeing uh fairly significant technology shift.
00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:27.759
And for the past, I don't know, I don't know how old CRM is.
00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:28.079
The S.
00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:30.399
You know how CRM goes back, what, 20 years?
00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:31.040
Uh I don't know.
00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:32.159
At least 20 years.
00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:34.799
Well, SAP was around in 2000, right?
00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:38.000
So okay, so so the whole idea of CRM was a beautiful vision.
00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:51.840
You know, use advanced software to manage the customer relationship, put all kinds of data in it, and we will um uh harvest this data in ways that could drive loyalty and drive revenue and do it cost effectively.
00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:56.399
Well, all that has proven to be untrue.
00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:59.919
I mean, that they it it it's not good at at managing the data.
00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:06.080
It hasn't improved the customer relationship, it hasn't done it cost effectively, and and so, but it's all we had.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:07.279
It was the only thing on the menu.
00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:13.120
And so we built these whole um architectures with the CRM in the middle.
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:20.159
And so you've got companies like Salesforce, which is one of the bigger ones, that has that big chunk in the middle, and everybody else kind of connects to it.
00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:26.159
And they they use terms like source of truth, but that's not really the right term.
00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:31.519
It's it's a it's a portion of stale truth, is what they have in there.
00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:34.720
And and and it's become very expensive.
00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:39.759
So now we have AI, and AI is disrupting everything.
00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:40.559
Everything.
00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:43.360
And I I I don't know how to make that point more clearly.
00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:47.440
I keep on saying making that point, and I think it's so obvious, and people say, well, it's not affecting me.
00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:49.759
It is affecting you, it's affecting everything.
00:09:49.840 --> 00:10:00.480
I mean, everything, and it's certainly affecting software, and it's certainly affecting business models, it's certainly affecting how we manage data, it's certainly affecting how we integrate data, it's everything.
00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:11.120
And so one of the things that's happening in the CRM world is that the uh the seat license is going to die.
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:14.879
And uh that's a big threat to revenue.
00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:21.360
And it's a the seat license is effectively a bet against your customer's efficiency.
00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:27.120
And so you're supposedly giving the customer tools to be more efficient, and if they become more efficient, they're gonna pay less.
00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:29.840
That's a that's a flawed, broken model.
00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:35.519
And so, and so the CRM companies have a lot to lose.
00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:42.159
And the main thing they're gonna lose is that CRM centric view of customer relationship.
00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:46.080
And so that's the that's why I say it's a pivot.
00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:55.039
That's why I say this is a um uh uh uh yeah, a pivot or even a panic to become to remain relevant.
00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:57.279
And so they have to build new solutions.
00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:05.200
Okay, so on on one hand we've got existing stuff, existing stacks that are fragmented.
00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:13.519
Uh and on the other hand, we've got um we've got the you know, the setups are too complicated, but too many options, and these are the challenges right now.
00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:14.639
So let's talk about that.
00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:18.159
I think the question is what what becomes the system of record, right?
00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:25.919
And so I do think software changes the way license change, but it doesn't stop the fact that CRM is table primarily a system of record for most companies.
00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:29.200
And the I I think AI changes the way you view it.
00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:39.200
Um I do think one of the problems Salesforce had historically, if you look at their initial release of Einstein, AI didn't work very well because the data in Salesforce for a lot of companies isn't very good.
00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:51.039
I think it's an interesting thing to think about that with AI taking notes now for salespeople, contact center agents, it can actually populate better data into the CRM.
00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:58.639
And so while AI is the thing that might expose the weakness of the CRM, it's also the thing that could actually populate the data.
00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:06.320
And so when people say SaaS is dead, I think that's a grossly over-exaggerated concept.
00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:13.360
I think the interface we use is likely going to change, but the data in it remains important because it's the thing that feeds around.
00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:15.279
You almost got that right, Zias.
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:16.960
Like I you're so close.
00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:19.440
I I really, I really appreciate you get making the effort.
00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:21.519
But but let's clarify something here.
00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:27.600
You see, the the data in the CRM, as you pointed out, is often stale and it's often incomplete.
00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:31.759
Most of that data comes from customer conversations.
00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:38.799
And so the way it's been for the past 20 years is the contact center was CRM's bitch, right?
00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:42.399
So basically, the CRM didn't have access to the conversation.
00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:45.200
So it had to ask the contacts because it doesn't want to deal with contact.
00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:46.080
That's hard, that's hard stuff.
00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:47.360
It's real time's hard stuff.
00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.080
Let's let's outsource that out to the contact center.
00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.320
We'll have them go and key in all these little menu codes.
00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:55.679
What was the call about?
00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:56.960
What did the customer want?
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:02.879
What what school does the uh uh kid, the client's kid go to, you know, all these little things.
00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:05.600
We'll capture all that into the CRM.
00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:12.240
Well, the CRM, and so and so Zias, you made the point, you know, who's gonna be the system of record?
00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:17.039
The the reality is system of record is a is a misnomer.
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:18.639
It's it's singular.
00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:20.799
There's gonna be lots of systems of records.
00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:26.480
There's gonna be ERP systems, there's gonna be shipping systems, there's gonna be ticketing systems, there's gonna be all kinds of systems.
00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:32.799
So what really matters is how you get the various sources, plural, of truth.
00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:35.519
Which is why it's the also both the world contact center.
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:36.159
You're bringing the city of the city.
00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:42.240
And so that half that data in the CRM is coming from conversations with the customer.
00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:43.919
Probably more than half the data.
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:52.480
That's so all of a sudden, generative AI doesn't mean that the contact center has to be uh CRM's bitch anymore.
00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.480
Now the contact center can capture that own their own conversation data.
00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:13.039
Now, when you want to know why customers are calling, instead of going to a CRM and running a report on stale data that was probably uh inaccurately keyed in, you go to the C the contact center directly and you ask, why are people calling?
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:14.240
Why are people calling today?
00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:16.799
Why are people calling at this moment?
00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:21.679
And it can give you a fairly accurate presentation of that information.
00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:25.440
Let's bring it back to the people that are impacted by the tech.
00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:29.759
Because I'm really keen to kind of focus on, we've got the leaders to talk about.
00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:40.399
And I think the people in the operations who are managing the teams that are looking after those customers, uh, who are at the end of the day, the kind of the important guys.
00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:48.240
Um they're experiencing issues right now with the complicated tech stacks, as you as you pointed out.
00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:50.639
What what does that pain look like?
00:14:50.799 --> 00:15:00.000
What what what are we trying to what whatever the uh opinion is around this particular technology, what what do we think the um the attempt to improve is?
00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:02.799
What are they trying to remove, what are they trying to make better?
00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.120
Because that I think that's really important to see and and and kind of highlight.
00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:09.679
Well, that's kind of what I was answering.
00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:28.639
I mean, if you want to understand why people are calling, what what customers are interested in in solving, or even even uh if it's not real-time data, just trying to understand which customers are are due for a proactive poll or something like that, uh, all that information is basically mining your different data sources.
00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:36.480
One of those data sources, one of the bigger ones, is of course is of course your interactive conversations with customers, which could be texts, emails, all kinds of stuff.
00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:42.240
But the other thing, there's, you know, uh, did they do a return recently, maybe check the different systems like that?
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:44.399
So getting accurate information.
00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:58.399
And so the way the CRM has done that is it collect tries to collect this information and it's incomplete, and it's a fancy database, and then you have to run special reports and you have to, you know, hire somebody to make a report for you.
00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:05.600
And you know, that then we get into the whole uh TPS reports uh um uh cover page and all kinds of stuff like that.
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:09.759
So so the the issue is is that generative AI is disrupting all this.
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.120
So we don't know where this is gonna land.
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:17.600
There's a lot of variables here, but the idea that you could just ask in natural language, who do I need to call today?
00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:20.399
What's the issues going on on the East Coast today?
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:24.720
And and get real-time responses that's much more accurate than we've had before.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:33.840
So so what we're finding is that the conversations are becoming much more valuable than they were, and the contact center has those conversations.
00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:41.039
The contact center doesn't necessarily want to give that data anymore to the CRM because it just gets stale and old there.
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:46.879
And and so then and the CRM understands this, which is why they're pivoting to try to become contact centers.
00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:47.679
Understood.
00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:57.600
Yeah, I think, you know, the term simplified the stacks is an interesting one because a lot of us look at it from the technology point of view.
00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:05.839
And I I think, you know, from the context of what we're talking about, we really should be talking more about the people issue, right?
00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:13.440
And so there's the obvious hidden cost of you know, maintaining the software APIs, all the you know, the software costs that we do that.
00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:24.400
But I think from a people perspective, um the the what Salesforce is trying to address is the overhead that the agents face in having the contact switch all the time.
00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:33.440
And so, you know, for my research, frontline agents spend at least 20 to 30 percent of their time just switching between applications.
00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:38.319
Supervisors then can't get that single source street to understand how productive people are.
00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:44.319
And then there's you know, all the other issues with poor service to customers and things like that.
00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:50.960
And so I I think you know, what Salesforce done here, this isn't about consolidation, you know, for its own sake.
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:59.920
It's about removing the friction that make customer service feel like they're always trying to assemble, you know, you know, like here furniture with instructions in three languages here.
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:27.839
So I I think it's um, you know, eventually, you know, I suppose they could have bought somebody or something, but I I think the way we've done this in the past where we try and bring together the different sources of data, you know, through these different APIs and connections and stuff, it's fair to say it's not really ever worked because you know, we all call contact centers, and how often do you leave saying that it's a great experience?
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:41.759
And so, you know, like like I said, when it comes to simplified stack, we always look at it from the technology point of view, but I think it's important to look at it from the people point of view because they're the ones that feel the real pain, and then the customers are the ones that suffer off on the back end of it.
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:46.480
So it's a great it's a great summary, yeah.
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:47.920
Uh uh it makes sense.
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.839
Um, I guess we should get into the technology a little bit more then.
00:18:52.000 --> 00:19:03.279
So um I think I I'm really I I really liked uh your point, Zius, around uh eliminating what you called the integration tax.
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:12.559
Um can you kind of just for our audience explain um what that is and what must be true for that to be something that's happening in the contact sector?
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:26.319
Yeah, I think the integration gas and thought it was the ongoing costs in you can take them in dollars, time, and opportunity of forcing disparate systems to share data that frankly they were never designed to share natively.
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:39.119
So um if you bring all together in a single, in a single platform, you can eliminate that by making voice, digital channels, AI, agents, CRM operating from the same underlying platform.
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:41.759
The key there is the unified data model, right?
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:55.680
And so you don't have any API in the middle where when one vendor, you know, when you when you have partners working together, when one vendor changes, then you know, there's uh there's always a revision behind because the other vendor needs to go change their APIs and things like that.
00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.839
So um, but I think for this to be real, three things have to be true, right?
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:08.559
And the first is customer data must flow without having to transform it or duplicate it across different interaction types because when you do that, you create the agency.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:15.359
Second, AI and human agents must share identical context without any kind of handoff friction, right?
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:23.680
And so we've always struggled to do that and um you know have that single source of truth that whether you want to call it that or not.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:32.480
And then lastly, the platform must eliminate the need for you know for different vendors to provide routing quality management, workforce optimization, analytics.
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:38.480
And um, you know, granted Salesforce still has to build some of those things, but that's the goal behind it, right?
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:53.119
They're not trying to bolt onto their CRM, they're trying to architect it natively where that system of record data already lives in order to get rid of that that integration tax that's multifaceted, as I said.
00:20:53.440 --> 00:21:02.640
So and Dave, I'm sure you've got an argument, the a counterpoint or at least for that.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:08.400
Well, no, I I I uh the integration tax is definitely gonna go away.
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:09.839
It's been a big problem.
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:15.200
Um in the future, you won't really log into a CRN.
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:28.960
Uh you'll interact with an AI agent that lives in your communication stack and and uh uh the data will be uh uh presented to you as necessary when you need it.
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:33.119
And uh I I think we all know where we're heading.
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.079
We don't know quite when we're gonna get there.
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:50.160
Um I I I don't think that the um uh I don't think that you know the the argument of you know uh uh I I I said earlier that it's not gonna be a single source of truth.
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:51.839
There never has been and never will be.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:57.680
We've been silo busting in IT for you know 30 years, whatever it's been.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:59.759
And they're we we build them faster than.
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:06.880
And so we're always going to have data silos of what's going to be what's going to be important is to figure out how to integrate these things.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.920
And the way we've integrated in the past hasn't been working.
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:14.640
And so we believe that AI will allow us to pull this together a little better.
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:18.640
Now, I keep on saying things are moving, things are changing.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:27.839
I mean, the amount of uh innovation occurring in the big models and the big AI story, it's unbelievable how fast things are changing.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:31.279
I do my monthly report, and the monthly report used to be a lot shorter.
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:36.000
It's just so much activity is is is um happening right now.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:42.559
Uh the models that we're or the AI that we're using today is radically different than it was six months ago.
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.319
And it takes six months to implement anything.
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.000
And so whatever you start implementing today is going to be very different when you finish it.
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.680
It's and so and so we don't know quite where this is all gonna land.
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:57.519
One of the things we don't know, and there's a big assumption, is that the cost of AI is gonna keep going down.
00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:00.079
Uh, we don't know if that's true anymore.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:04.720
Uh the demand for AI is increasing faster than the capacity is increasing.
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:06.559
That means there might be a shortage.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:08.960
Shortages usually mean prices go up.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:13.440
And so uh that's gonna be a problem for anybody doing a perceit license model.
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:19.039
Um uh and that's why I think the perceit license model is gonna have to go away.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.599
So there's gonna be there's all kinds of unknowns.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:28.480
We don't know how much better the AI is gonna get, we don't know much faster it's gonna get, we don't know what it's gonna cost, and we don't know quite what it's gonna do.
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:38.319
But we know it's moving very, very quickly, and we know that software and CRMs in particular are uh a falling knife.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:40.720
And so if you want to try to catch that, you go ahead.
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:58.240
And um uh and so it's a great time to be in the contact center space because uh they're not being they are being impacted by by um uh the depth of software, but not nearly as much because uh they're also on the leading edge of this.
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:09.680
They're they're gonna have to move from a perceived model, but um they're but managing the real-time network and the conversations and the integrations are a little different than just by coding.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:13.200
So um it'll it'll be an interesting journey for sure, though.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:20.400
I think all the software vendors, I don't care what states they're in, have to think about making this H3 utilization-based model.
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.960
Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you challenged on that, because let me explain that.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:34.559
The uh the the reason why the CCAS vendors are in a better spot is because they can deliver an ROI that eliminates the CRM vendors.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:35.680
They're not quite there yet.
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:41.759
Some of them are, some of them aren't quite there yet, but they have to add a little more functionality around customer profiles and stuff like that.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:47.920
But but if they can eliminate the cost of a CRM, their ROI becomes very compelling.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.880
The CRM vendors, they're not trying to eliminate the CRM cost.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:55.440
They're trying to add CCAS on top of it.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:58.799
They have an impossible ROI mission ahead of them.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:03.759
And so uh this is why this is why the CCAS vendors are in a much better position.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:05.440
That that might be the worst takeover.
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:09.119
You can't, you, you can't you can't eliminate the CRM vendors.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:15.039
Well, I mean, the CCAS vendors could if they build their own CRM capabilities.
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:19.920
But I mean, that is uh I mean you you talk about the complexity of building the global voice network.
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:29.680
It's equally complex to build, you know, a system of record that keeps track of every customer they'll actually understand CRMs aren't just used for service, right?
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:32.319
We think of it that way in the context of our space.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:38.799
There's the entire sales and marketing aspect of it, top of funnel all the way to bottom of funnel to customer service, right?
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.359
CRMs are used from first mouse click through product retirement.
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:49.680
And the the CCAT vendors address the very back half of that, but certainly not the front end of that.
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:54.400
Yeah, no, I I I understand and agree with what you're saying.
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:56.720
I just think that the model's changing.
00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:05.920
That the that in fact, as you pointed out, Zia, as you said, most customers interact with contact centers and customer service and some kind, they're not happy with it.
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:14.079
The CRM model, the CRM promise of improving that customer relationship really hasn't delivered and it's become very, very expensive.
00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:21.359
So what's instead going to happen is we're gonna revalue, uh, reevaluate how we do this uh customer relationship management.
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.920
It's like it's like the cut the customer relationship's not gonna go away.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:28.319
When I say the CRM is gonna go away, it's it's like it's like when the digital camera came out.
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:33.359
Um the digital camera replaced the film camera, but it didn't replace pictures, right?
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.720
So the customer relationship is still going to be there, still gonna be important.
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.440
Um, but how we photograph it is going to be very different.
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:44.960
And the CRM has just become uh an unruly database.
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:52.160
It's a very expensive database, and what a large part of its value is around the agent desktop or the desktop UI.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:57.680
And we've already seen, you know, what Salesforce announced headless, which was just, you know, that's a that's a that's a laugh.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:02.000
So they've already they've already announced, well, we'll get rid of part of this part of our value.
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:05.680
They didn't say they're gonna get rid of that part of the price, though, but they're gonna get rid of that part of the value.
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:06.799
But that's their problem.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:08.400
They have to maintain their revenue.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:16.319
And they're not gonna be able to maintain their revenue, which means that they're gonna be in constant mode of layoffs while they're trying to build CCAS.
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:18.160
That's gonna be a tough business.
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.920
Now, some of them, the big ones or the smart ones, might be able to pull that off.
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:23.519
A lot of them won't.
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:29.920
But CCAS vendors, on the other hand, don't have to do that much more to add a little more customer profile information.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:35.759
I just wrote, and I did a recent post, Amazon already has it, uh, NICE already has it.
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:41.680
Um in fact, the the guy leading the Nice effort, he built the dynamics uh uh product at Microsoft.
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:47.759
So so they they know they kind of know what they need to build, and they're gonna build it in an AI first new model.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.720
Yeah, and uh they're gonna do it at a much lower cost.
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:52.480
They don't have it across the customer journey.
00:27:52.559 --> 00:28:07.759
And this is the problem that, well, really every vendor of the customer experience, from Adobe to you know Salesforce to NICE, is nobody really understands customer journey because as I said, that starts at first mouse click and ends at product target.
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:14.400
And the uh the the Adobe's the world are very good at the front end of that chain.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:17.839
The CCAS vendors are very good at the back end of it.
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:24.960
You know, I think it's arguable that CRM is the only one that looks across both, but you still need the data from all aspects of that.
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:27.359
So I don't I don't think sales are finished here.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:32.640
I I think they're they're the ones, you know, you know, they built the CCAS, but you know, they they've got to build along.
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.960
You know, I'm sure there's more coming from them.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.200
So just to be able to get it.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:40.880
Yeah, so so when you start off with where what is Asian Forest?
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:42.319
So they're trying to build a CCAS.
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:45.279
It'll take them a couple years to get to the basics.
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:49.839
It'll take them a couple more years to get it uh Fed cer Fed Ramp certified.
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:54.640
It'll take them a couple more years to get it five five nine uh reliable.
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:57.680
I mean, and so they got a hell of a journey ahead of them.
00:28:57.920 --> 00:28:59.039
They'll they'll get there.
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:00.960
Yeah, they got the you know, they'll get there.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:04.160
They're gonna have to do that all, of course, while baling water.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.759
But that's you know, it's a whole nother conversation, uh, which we've already touched on.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:14.720
So um, but but but you made a really good point there, Zias, which is what we're building, we don't quite know.
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:19.039
We don't really understand what we're building yet, and we're building it with uh wet paint, right?
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:22.400
I mean, it's like this is all it's all changing very, very quickly.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:27.200
And so I do not bel but we do know a few a few things for sure.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.599
We know that AI is getting better and better.
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:34.400
We know that conversations are becoming more and more important and that we can mine more data out of them.
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.680
We know that integrations are becoming much easier with AI.
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:42.960
And I don't believe for a second that any enterprise is ever going to have a single source of truth.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:44.480
Never has, never will.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:53.920
Um and uh and so I think we can we could have we're finally in a position to build a solution that doesn't need or assume that.
00:29:54.400 --> 00:30:04.319
Dave, you've you've touched on um reliability there specific and you've called out like comparing this to Five Nines reliability, you know, the functional depth that they've got.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.680
That's a challenge that you've that you've kind of mentioned previously.
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.720
I'd like you to kind of go into a bit more detail on that.
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:21.279
What what are the what are those non-negotiables that you know have to stack up in order for you know a vendor to be able to provide a proper contact center solution?
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:27.359
Well, then that's all the stuff that the contact center industry, the CCAS providers, the CCAS leaders have been building for years, right?
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:32.000
So, you know, we talk about 5.9, there's the 5.9 metric and there's the 5.9 provider.
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:37.119
And for a long time, the 5.9 provider did not meet the 5.9 metric, but now they have for years now.
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:41.759
And so that but but it was an it was an aspirational goal at first, but it takes time to build this stuff.
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:43.200
It's really hard to do.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:45.279
Um, and you can't vibecode it, right?
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.519
And so, and so it took Amazon.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:53.039
I mean, Amazon built uh Connect, and they actually had uh real-time expertise in-house.
00:30:53.200 --> 00:31:02.640
They are, they are, they up, they had these capabilities in-house, and it still took them somewhere around two or three years to uh to kind of get that kind of stabilized for the contact center.
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:04.319
Uh, Salesforce has none of that.
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:09.039
I mean, Salesforce needed to add little video to Slack, and they had to hire Amazon to do that.
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:12.799
So um so they're starting from scratch.
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:18.240
I I don't really understand why Salesforce didn't acquire somebody, but they chose not to, and that's their toy, that's their decision.
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:21.200
So it's gonna take them some time to build reliable network.
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:22.240
So, what do they have to build?
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:27.039
They have to build Omnichannel, and Omnichannel is keeps on getting more omni, as we say.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:28.960
It just keeps on adding more channels.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:42.240
Well, the latest one is RCFs, but you know, you've got all these things from WhatsApp to uh text messaging to uh to voice, um, all kinds of I don't know how many channels there are down in the modern contact center, 10, something like that.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:49.519
Uh, and they all have to be reliable, they have to be recorded, they have to be uh uh available for uh uh groups.
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:54.559
Uh you've got to build the the 5.9 reliability, which is a very hard thing to do.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:32:02.880
You've got to build um uh distribution model around different countries, which and some countries are very restrictive about how you could bring in communication services.
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:10.480
You've got to build a partner uh network, you've got to build uh partners that can actually not only sell it, but actually implement it and support it.
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:11.759
And this all takes time.
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:13.920
I mean, how long will it take Salesforce to do this?
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:14.720
A while.
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:15.759
It's gonna be a while.
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:21.119
Not to mention none of their none of their existing, or a few of their existing partners, know how to do any of this stuff.
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:24.720
And so on that, Z, because I'm just conscious of time.
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:26.640
I'd like to get your counter to that.
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:28.640
Do can Salesforce do that do any of this?
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:29.359
Yeah, you're right.
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:33.359
They didn't have the talent, but they actually went and hired a lot of the people from Amazon that book was there.
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:44.000
And um, you know, you're uh uh you know, I get they're new in the market, but you're in fact the post you wrote basically said if you're late in a market, you should never enter a market.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:46.720
And you know, Zoom went through this, Amazon went through this.
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:52.880
I mean, Zoom built one from zero to you know full-fledged contact center in like three years.
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:56.480
And I you look at the path they took, they didn't acquire somebody.
00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:58.559
They tried to buy five lines that fell apart.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:06.480
But if you ask anybody at Zoom, they're much better off having built their own stack, you know, than trying to buy a legacy one where you'd have to modernize it.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:11.119
But the difference there, the the difference there, ZS, is that Zoom is a real-time communications company.
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:14.000
They they have experience and capability in doing this.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:18.000
And they knew they know how to do UI and they already had all these skills.
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:19.680
But but but your point is fair.
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:20.000
Yeah.
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:24.000
But sales folks did go and hire a number of the people from Connecticut who do that.
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:27.039
I do think uh also a lot of the other things that you need.
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:35.359
Elon Musk hired a bunch of really expensive AI professionals and they lasted for a whole six months until they came up with the But you know it uh it doesn't hiring doesn't solve it.
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:39.119
Like you've got to build a team, you've got to build a strategy, you've got to build a vision, you've got to execute.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:41.119
This is not easy and trivial stuff.
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:44.160
Yeah, but Salesforce already has a lot of the components you need.
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:46.319
They they do have most of the channels.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:49.680
Uh they have quality management, morphology optimization.
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:54.319
Uh they they they're they they do have conversational intelligence from their own AI.
00:33:54.559 --> 00:34:05.440
Um, and so you know, the they do have to go build up their telephony network, which I'm not gonna uh, you know, uh uh understate the complexity that that rings.
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:13.920
But the the you know, the bigger question, I guess, isn't whether and this is an interesting thing to think about for the industry.
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:34.400
What does Salesforce actually have to match the 20-year-old feature list that was built pre-AI, or how many of those features won't matter in the post-AI world where a lot of the tier goal inquiries can be handled without you know routing trees and all your the the the stuff that happens at the back end, right?
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:50.239
And so I think here's a case where the all the new entrants, and through Amazon and Zoom and Win Central CX in there as well, aren't as worried about trying to get rid of the phone, like they say the best call you can have is the one that never happens, right?
00:34:50.559 --> 00:35:11.840
And um, you know, the new entrants in the space and I throw sales work in there, can be a lot more aggressive in trying to redefine customer experience than the than what is with the big shares today, because they stand to lose a lot, you know, if um you know interactions fall through the floor because you're handling them in a much different way, right?
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:21.119
And so that's interesting thing to think about is like if Salesforce comes in this market and just tries to be exactly what everybody else is, I think that's the wrong approach.
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:27.199
They got to really rethink interactions and how we can do it in a different way, right?
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:30.239
And that's larger than Amazon's done, and they've had a lot of support.
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:32.480
You know, yeah, yes, you're absolutely right.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:33.440
I've been too critical.
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:41.760
The uh the CRM vendors, they've they've done a fantastic job of building an incredible business and empire around software that doesn't work.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:46.880
And so, and so I think that you're right, that they we should give them a little bit of credit and patience.
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:49.440
I actually have no doubt that they can build this.
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:50.480
I want to be clear about that.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:51.760
They actually can build it.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:55.599
The question is, can they do it in a way that preserves the revenue, which is their objective?
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:57.199
And I don't believe they can do that.
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:01.199
And I think that's where we're gonna see a lot of disruption from other new vendors.
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:05.360
Not all, not only CCAS providers, but other providers that are moving into that.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.199
I mean, that's true of every software vendor right now.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:12.000
Is AI gonna, you know, I that's why Wall Street's so you know bearish on software in general.
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:15.119
I mean, all the CCAT vendors are way down too.
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:23.920
So Okay, so I'm afraid we we I mean, I don't think we're ever gonna agree uh on this, um, but that's okay.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:27.440
Um and we've run out of time very, very nearly.
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:33.039
It feels to me that we've got a situation where AI is basically leveling a playing field, isn't it?
00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:38.320
And everyone's trying to do their best to get on that playing field, however it might look.
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:48.800
And people are adapting, people are evolving, people are acquiring, but ultimately it's going to be very interesting to see where everybody ends up uh and and when they get there, I think to your point, Dice.
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:53.199
And I I want I just want to say, I don't think we disagree as much as you think that we do.
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:58.400
I think I think we both, I think in fact Salesforce and most of the CCAS providers have a very similar vision.
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:00.639
I think they're all kind of moving toward the same place.
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:02.400
The question is, how do you get there?
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:03.840
And that's that's where the differences are.
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:07.679
How do you get there and and uh and what and what do you charge for it?
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:09.599
I think that's that's really where the issues are.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:10.079
Yeah.
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:17.519
I think I think one thing that's been misunderstood though is Salesforce didn't do this to just launch a competitive CCAS product, right?
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:24.880
So they are trying to create a an architectural reckoning, if you will, of CX, right?
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:30.159
Where CIOs today have to justify paying an immigration tax to maintain separate systems.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:34.239
There's a lot of there's a pretty heavy lift on the on the agents, even still.
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:39.199
Uh, we've made it a little bit easier with agent uh you know recommendation tools and things like that.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:44.880
So they have they have a lot a lot, they have a lot of money, they have a lot of skill, and they have a business model that's obsolete.
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:49.039
So if they're gonna pivot as fast as they can, and they and they're doing it, they're doing a good job of it.
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:56.079
Wait, but there's a you know, there's a lot of money to be made in um in cutting costs, right?
00:37:56.159 --> 00:38:00.639
Cutting the costs of agents, but there's more to be made if you can help companies think of new revenue in the models.
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:12.639
And I think this is where Salesforce is, you know, they they understand um you know kind of the customer journey better than most C C CAT vendors will.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.639
It'll be interesting to see if it forces the hand about the C CAT vendors.
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:19.440
I predict that you will see Zoo eventually move to CRM.
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.079
You know, I think that's the one piece of the stack with Dervison.
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:25.119
So um, you know, I I I think you heard it.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:26.239
We heard it here first.
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:27.679
I can't lead with that.
00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:30.639
I can't leave with that as a headline when you heard it here first.
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:34.159
Unfortunately, that is that is all the all the time we've got uh gents.
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:39.519
Uh Zias, Dave, thanks so much uh for again for joining me and answering all my questions.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:52.239
Um I I think before we close though, just for anyone who's watching this, um who might be interested in kind of following your thoughts and opinions on on similar or other subjects, what what's the best way for them to find out more, get in touch with you?
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:53.760
Dave, do you want to go first?
00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:58.400
Uh you can find me and my content at talkingpoints.com.
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:01.840
That's uh with a Z or a Z on the end uh for you, Rob.
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:05.519
Um and uh yeah, everything's there, talkingpoints.com.
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:12.800
Yeah, for me, just go to zkresearch.com or ZK, depending if you're in the US or not, or just uh uh follow me on LinkedIn.
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:16.000
That uh pretty active feed um every day.
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:18.000
So awesome.
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:24.400
And and don't forget, you can also find a wealth of related resources, stories, and videos at cxttoday.com.
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:26.079
Um so that does wrap everything up.
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:28.000
I've been Rob Wilkinson from CX Today.
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:29.760
Thanks very much for joining us.
