Is Digital Culture Disconnecting Us? Media Overload, Ghosting, & Reclaiming Attention with Dr. Annie Margaret

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Welcome to Coping with Ghosting, the podcast that provides hope, healing, and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted, betrayed, or hurt in relationships.
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I'm your host, Gretta, a certified post-betrayal transformation coach.
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Oftentimes people ask me why do people ghost and hurt others?
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In the Coping with Ghosting archives, we've answered this from multiple angles, exploring everything from attachment styles to personality disorders to the wild west of online dating.
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But something we haven't fully unpacked yet is how our devices like phones and computers, social media, the internet at large, are actually driving some of these behaviors and how they impact our mindsets in the aftermath of betrayal.
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It's a massive, critical topic.
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And joining me today to help us understand is Annie Margaret PhD.
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She is an educator, speaker, and co-founder of the Post-Internet Project.
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Merging her background in cell and molecular biology with ancient contemplative practices, her work explores the intersection of mental health, tech design, and mindfulness.
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Annie is dedicated to restoring human agency and well-being in an era of digital distraction and the commodification of human attention.
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Annie, your work is outstanding and I'm thrilled that you're here.
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Thank you for joining me.
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Yeah, thanks, Gretta.
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It's great to be here.
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So maybe it's me just noticing this because my job is to coach people who have been ghosted, but it feels like there's this parallel between how people scroll through TikTok and Instagram and dating apps and the way people are moving through relationships with actual human beings.
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Like it's almost as if they're looking for this instant dopamine hit and then discarding the connection once it gets hard or uncomfortable, or if it like really actually just requires some real effort.
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Do you think our rapid fire media consumption is shrinking our capacity for emotional endurance in real life relationships?
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Well, I'll riff a little bit.
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Short answer, yes.
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A longer answer to elaborate.
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When we talk about our emotional bandwidth or the way we relate to other people, there are a few things to that.
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One is we have, it is not infinite.
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It is in fact finite.
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And so as we're spending those resources getting hooked into media loops, the fear narratives, the just constant dopamine cycling, all of that stuff is actually depleting our emotional resources.
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And so then we have less left to give to real relationships.
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So that's one piece of it.
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Then the other piece is what's happening neurologically, which is that we are actually training ourselves into a state of constant, instant gratification, which speaks to your point about then leaving as soon as it gets hard.
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So you hear a lot in the media when folks talk about this, the dopamine hijack.
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And so I when I explain this, I like to add a piece to that, which is everybody's saying, oh, our dopamine's getting hijacked, we're seeking instant gratification, we're the doom scroll.
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You hear that, but the cost is that our dopamine is also what drives motivation, what gets us out of bed in the morning, what gets us to do hard conversations and relationships.
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And so it gets oversimplified as this addiction chemical.
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But actually, when that is drained, you actually can't have a difficult conversation.
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You actually can't go to the gym because the neurotransmitter that's driving that is fried.
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It's just stun.
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So those are kind of the two pieces, I would say, along with the fact that, you know, then add one more thing.
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Then on top of that, we're seeing all of these glorification of perfect relationships.
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So we're striving for an unrealistic ideal.
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We're trained in wanting it immediately.
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And then our dopamine and nervous system is totally fried.
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And our emotional stores are depleted.
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So boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
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It's a mess all over the place.
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I am horrified by this whole cycle.
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It's really disturbing to me.
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Um, personally, it affects me.
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I have noticed that I'm really addicted to social media, which kind of made me, well, actually, your series of videos has inspired me to actually go ahead and delete Instagram from my phone, which I did.
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And I told everyone who's following at coping with ghosting, TikTok, Instagram, like, hey, I'm only going to be posting really just to promote this show.
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But other than that, like, I don't really want to contribute to this.
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I mean, it's almost against my values to deplete people's dopamine because they're just scrolling through these quick hits.
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But at the same time, I'm like, well, I know it helps people.
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I know it brings attention to healing your heart after being hurt.
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And so that's important.
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So I find that it's really hard in terms of like having this high moral ethical standard of I don't want to contribute to this cycle, but at the same time, I do want to help people.
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It's it's a little bit sticky for me.
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Yes, and it's sticky for a lot of people.
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And also congratulations on first of all the recognition because most people are to some degree, I don't like the word addiction because it's pathologizing, but are consuming way too much information.
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Okay.
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That then they cannot actually engage in a relationship in a healthy and meaningful way.
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Because it they're just overwhelmed by the amount of stimulus they're consuming.
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Um, so congrats.
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Thank you so much.
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Another thing that I've noticed on social media is that there is a lot of messaging that says things like, you don't owe anyone anything, or silently walk away from whatever doesn't serve you.
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And also, it's not just social media, but it's TV shows.
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Like every single TV show and probably every movie that I've recently watched has had a ghosting storyline.
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So the media is essentially normalizing ghosting.
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And in a way, I feel like it's erasing empathy.
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What are your thoughts about this?
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Okay, I'm gonna answer this from two different perspectives.
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So, one perspective, the more simple one, is or foundational, let's say, is that media is mirroring ourselves back to us.
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Right.
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And so as things become more common and the media amplifies in terms of the short form and the intensity of the content that is required to capture attention, it's just like a drug, right?
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You take one hit of a drug, the first time you get really high.
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The next time you need a stronger and stronger hit.
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So the media has to follow the trend toward more outrage, more dramatic, more anger, whatever the strongest emotion they can get is.
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And so you can see the parallel in the mirroring of the ghosting content.
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So that's kind of a more foundational example of what's going on there.
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The second explanation I would encourage folks to do is to follow the money.
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Okay, who's producing this media?
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Who's creating it, who's funding it, and who is benefiting from you being distracted, confused, exhausted.
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So when you see media, notice how it's making you feel.
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If it's not making you feel more joyful, more aligned, more restored, more inspired, maybe shut it off for a while.
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And then if you feel it's right for you, look up, follow the money back because there are forces behind the media that are not in alignment with the best interest of humanity overall in terms of what stories we get shown.
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And that then fill our minds.
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I think it's really a beautiful and smart practice to be extraordinarily selective about the content that you're choosing to consume and really thinking about it and reflecting on it.
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Is it aligned with your values?
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Does it feel good in your system?
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Everything Annie just said, so important to do this.
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And I feel like the media is also contributing to a lot of people's trust issues because watching a world that feels increasingly unsafe and divided online, it makes it harder for us to open up and trust people in real life.
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So, what remedies do you offer for this in your work?
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Yes, that is exactly what is happening.
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And remedies.
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So a lot of people will encourage folks to do a detox.
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And while that will address one aspect, which is getting the dopamine reoriented toward a more regulated state, often what happens with a detox is then people just rebound.
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It's just like drug rehab, right?
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You're good while you're in the rehab facility, but then you go home and most people relapse.
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Same thing with a media detox.
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And so the deeper work required is actually reorienting your attention to what gives you meaning, purpose, and joy.
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And when I taught this in college for years, I would ask these young people, what gives you joy?
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When was the last time your life felt meaningful?
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Every semester, someone would leave the room crying.
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And I'm not saying that with judgment to them, just but they're 20 and no one's ever asked them that.
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And then somebody asks and they realize they don't know.
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And that is understandably an upsetting moment.
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And so to really get yourself fully unhooked from this requires some deeper reflection and full reorienting of your attention toward those new things and then attaching them to your identity.
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So I am the kind of person who makes art.
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I am the kind of person who plays guitar.
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I am the kind of person who loves to sit in the park.
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It doesn't matter, it doesn't have to be this grand thing.
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But say out, try this, say out loud to yourself.
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I am the kind of person who consumes eight hours of TikTok a day.
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Okay, you're you're not.
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You'll hear, you'll hear yourself say that and realize it's a lie.
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You that's not who you are.
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Right?
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So reorient your attention to the meaningful things, then get your identity attached to them.
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And also, I think it is really helpful to see what's actually going on here with how the media systems incentives are not aligned with your health vitality and well-being.
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And once you begin to see that clearly, kind of like you were saying, you can't unsee it.
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And then it becomes a little bit easier to remove yourself from that.
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That's so true.
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What I've noticed is that when I'm scrolling, my emotions go up and down.
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Sometimes I'll get an ad for puppies that are really sick and need help, and it makes me feel extremely sad or to donate to a natural disaster that just happened.
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And or, but other times I see ads for fake eyelashes and I feel fine.
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And I notice that like this is an emotional roller coaster, just like going on TikTok, going on Instagram, it doesn't feel good in my heart.
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Like I don't like having these up and down moments.
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I would prefer to be in control.
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And I do think it's important to pay attention to natural disasters, politics, and all the things that are going on in the world.
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But what I'm trying to convey here is that if I'm trying to relax and watch cake decorating videos, I don't want to then have this emotional roller coaster.
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And so what your video series has kind of taught me is that I need to be more selective about what I'm doing when I'm doing it.
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And really more over more bigger than that is the why behind it.
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Like, would I rather be decorating a cake myself or watching other people do it a hundred times, like in a row?
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You know what I mean?
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Because I'm binging the cake content.
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And it's not to say that if you like baking content, it's a bad thing.
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It's just like, how much brain space do you want to dedicate to that?
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And for me, I felt like I can't stop looking at this content.
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And that's where I'm like, well, that's an issue.
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Yes.
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And so if I may, I want to say one thing that I did not say at the beginning that I always intend to say whenever I take public interviews, which is this is not the fault of individual people.
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The entire system is designed to be addictive and extractive and to trend toward the most dramatic, you know, outrageous content possible.
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It is designed that way.
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And so when you get hooked, I can't stop, that is by design.
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So that being said, people do need to become stronger in order to unhook themselves from this.
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And we also need a cultural shift because a lot of folks think, oh, I have to know all these things.
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I'm just going to tell you right now, here is your permission slip.
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No, you don't.
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And here is maybe a more scientific framework to support you in believing, no, you don't.
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So I like to explain this as three axes: perception, sense making, and action.
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And so I'll relate this to ghosting in a minute.
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Perception is just the information you're perceiving, what you're taking in.
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Sense making is how are you making sense of that?
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And then action is what are you doing about it?
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So, to use your cake content example, we can perceive three hours of cake content information.
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Okay.
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Now, after that, the sense making would be I would ask you, what did you learn about how to decorate cakes?
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And whatever you remember is what you made sense of.
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When I teach this, people are often horrified how little they remember and made sense of.
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And then action is how many of the cake building skills that you learned did you apply?
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And so this helps us see that we are really way overloaded on the perception side of things and we had don't have very much left for sense making or action.
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So you're to point to your point, that doesn't mean perceiving is bad, but we want for optimal health for those axes to be in balance, like three axes of a sphere, right?
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To be really balanced.
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Um, and to relate this to relationships and ghosting, right?
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What we're perceiving is there are infinite partners, right?
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There are infinite options of humans that could be lead me to that perfect thing where then everything is finally happy happily ever after.
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Also, that is a lie.
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Okay, but that's the idea.
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Perceive, perceive, perceive.
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Then how much are we making sense of it?
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How many of these people are we actually getting to know?
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How many actions are we taking?
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How many dates are we actually going on?
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Right?
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So if that's helpful, look at your media consumption behaviors, perception, sense making, action, and do whatever you can to get them more in balance.
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And you'll start to feel better.
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I promise you that.
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That's great advice.
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And when we're struggling, I think it's really tempting to turn to technology for comfort.
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So specifically AI, because it's a total yes man.
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It's like really agreeable and it tells us you did nothing wrong.
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And I offer coaching and I appreciate things like Chat GPT because people have actually found me through that and hired me, which is great.
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But my concern is that many people are replacing real life conversations with coaches and therapists with AI.
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So, what are the hidden dangers in outsourcing our emotional processing to an algorithm?
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How much time you got?
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Um, okay, the dangers of that.
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I want to speak to the okay cases first and then into the dangers.
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So, one place where I think it can be helpful is gathering information and then also getting you through that initial really high emotion part.
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So when you just need to blah type type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, type, and the robot gives you a pep talk and you feel better for a little bit.
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Okay, that is actually helpful and honestly, maybe not the best use of a real human being's time for you to just scream and vent.
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And then once we move through that, now we do need a real person who can tell it to us like it is, and also who can help us feel seen.
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So so much of our communication is not, I think it's something people debate this, but something like 7% of communication is the actual text and the rest of it is the tone of voice, the way people are holding their bodies, all these other things.
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So to really feel seen in your moment of betrayal, you need a real person to see you.
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And then you also need a real person to guide you through that because unless you have done already a really lot of deep work so that you are strong enough to ask the robots, no, tell me what I did wrong.
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Because if I've done this, if you do, they will tell you, help you a little bit.
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But most people aren't asking that question.
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Show me my flaws.
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And also you're never gonna feel really truly seen and held and supported by a robot because so much of that, what is happening in our nervous system, think about babies, the way they attune to their mama's nervous system, right?
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You cannot put an infant up against lay it on the laptop and be like comforted by Chat GPT, you know, to make it understandable for folks.
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And we, even though we are now adults with fully developed prefrontal cortex and intellectual minds, we still need the comfort of real people seeing us, understanding us, supporting us, and who have real expertise to guide us.
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So to speak to the dangers now, it'll feed you back whatever you want to hear.
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That's what they do.
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And that is not gonna help you grow into the kind of person who is really ready for a mature, sovereign relationship, two whole humans joining, right?
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To avoid that codependence thing that everybody gets hooked in.
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I'm half, please help me.
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I'm half, please help me.
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Now we're entangled and it's a mess.
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We don't want to do that.
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And the robots will make you really good at staying half a person because they'll happily be the other half for you and tell you whatever you want to hear, right?
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It's it's not for them to want you to become whole.
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And other human beings who have walked that path toward wholeness are better equipped to guide you in walking that path back to wholeness.
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AI can mimic empathy, but it will never share a human connection with us.
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And that is what it lacks, and that is what I believe everybody needs after getting really hurt in a relationship.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, when our nervous system is raw from betrayal, what we feed our minds really matters.
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I always look at ghosting and betrayal recovery from a holistic perspective.
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It's like how you move.
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Your body, what you're looking at on your phone, like what are you thinking in your mind?
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What are you telling yourselves?
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What are these stories?
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:16.240
And of course, like if you're on your phone and you're watching stressful news, it's gonna negatively impact an already aching heart.
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:26.720
And then if you're scrolling through social media or you're still looking at the person who ghosted you stories, you're looking at the curated lives of other people.
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:29.200
Well, that's also unhelpful.
00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:34.000
But at the same time, like I have done all of that.
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:45.920
Like it's really hard not to check up on a friend or loved one after they've heard us because the internet is always keeping them within arm's reach.
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:59.200
So my question is: how can listeners and viewers gently nudge their attention away from the screen and back toward slow analog spaces like music, art, or nature?
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:04.000
I would say make your environment work in your favor.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.559
Get your phone out of your room.
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:10.480
Make it basic in the beginning if you need to.
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:17.440
Get your phone out of your room, link it to a reward, you know, these kind of foundational behavior change things.
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:21.759
Every night when you go to sleep, what are you thinking about?
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:28.160
Read a book that brings you joy, find a really good mystery or whatever your genre is, you know.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:33.920
Gently replace the behaviors with other things.
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.640
And then when you do the new, this part's important.
00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:43.759
When you do the new behavior, you throw yourself a party like you would for a toddler that took its first step.
00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:44.559
Right?
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:49.039
That part's a lot of people skip that part because we want to be perfect immediately.
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:59.839
But the first time you don't reach for your phone first thing when you wake up and you reach for a glass of water, you start to meditate, whatever your thing is.
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:04.640
You just lay there even, take three deep breaths of gratitude that you're alive again.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:11.839
And then when you do that, you throw yourself the biggest party you can muster.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:16.160
I cannot believe that I was able to do that when I just got ghosted.
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:18.000
I am incredible, I am amazing.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:21.519
This is the best possible thing I could ever do for myself.
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:27.680
You have to do the celebration aspect to reinforce or link it to a reward.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.079
That's more foundational, right?
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:33.440
You spend one night without your phone in your room.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:35.839
The next night you get an Oreo.
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:37.519
I don't know, whatever you like.
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:45.279
Um but yeah, and I'll say one other thing.
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:49.839
Notice how you start feeling when you do the new thing.
00:24:49.839 --> 00:25:02.000
Because the self-reinforcement loop actually can happen much faster than traditional behavior change people will tell you, you know, oh, it's hard and arduous and it will take months to replace your habits.
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.839
And that can be true.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:10.559
But if you reorient and then every time you notice, oh wow, I feel a little bit better.
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:14.240
And then you do it again and you think, oh wow, I feel a little bit better.
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:21.279
You can actually create positive momentum just as quickly or even faster than the negative momentum.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:25.519
But you have to take the moment of noticing how you feel.
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:28.720
Because most of us are running through life being like, okay, there I did it.
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:29.680
It's just another task.
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:30.319
Okay, there.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:32.000
I drank water instead of being on my phone.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:33.599
Okay, next thing.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:42.960
No, you have to notice it, celebrate it, and then spend a moment, even if it's just two breaths in the feeling better.
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:46.160
And then that will create the positive momentum.
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:49.920
But you have to slow down to be able to notice it.
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.200
Which that's a trick in itself.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:53.920
Yeah.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:55.039
Yeah.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:58.000
Slowing down is really hard for me.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.079
I like to go fast.
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:07.440
I also find that what helps is to come back to my why.
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.440
Why do I not want to be on my phone all the time?
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:16.799
And my short list is that scrolling, it really hurts my eyeballs.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.599
It doesn't feel good in my head, like really physically.
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:21.680
Sometimes I get a headache from it.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.960
Um, I think it's hurting my posture overall.
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:29.599
It's shortening my attention span, my mood goes down.
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:37.039
And then in general, I'm really concerned that short-term content is just frying my brain.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:43.920
So I want to add one other thing about gentle ways and slowing down.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:56.960
So if folks aren't familiar with a practice called Yoga Nidra, or if you like the scientific words, non-sleep deep rest, most of us do not actually know how to rest anymore.
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:02.240
We have been trained to that stimulation is rest, right?
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:05.119
So we're receiving stimulation on the phone.
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:07.359
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:12.240
And we're telling ourselves, and I know this because I've been teaching this for 15 years at college.
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.480
They say, well, that's how I relax.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:21.119
I am telling you, as an expert, that is not rest.
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:23.279
That is stimulation.
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:31.680
And so you are not going to feel rested after a period of an hour or two or four of stimulation.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:33.680
You're going to feel exhausted.
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:37.839
You're going to have a headache, you're going to have bad posture, all the things you described.
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:57.680
And so, what I recommend is beginning to try, there are tons of guided versions on YouTube, but experimenting with the practice of Yoga Nidra or non-sleep deep rest so that you can begin to feel in your nervous system what actual rest feels like.
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:02.160
Because a lot of us are staying stimulated until we're so exhausted, we just pass out.
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:05.200
People scrolling until they just fall asleep.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:06.640
You know?
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:10.319
But actual rest has a very different quality to it.
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:17.200
And when we retrain our nervous system to know what that feels like, then we can begin to feel safe in our bodies.
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:20.079
We can begin to slow down with greater ease.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:22.400
All of these things will come more naturally.
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:27.200
But the first time you try that, it might feel a little uncomfortable because it's new, it's different.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:38.480
But that is another way I would say you can gently reorient or gently begin training the nervous system in a different way that isn't hyperstimulus all the time.
00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:43.920
I love Yoga Nidra and I use Insight Timer for it.
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:47.359
It's a free app with multiple meditations on it.
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:49.200
So that's a great tip.
00:28:49.200 --> 00:29:00.720
And for somebody listening right now who feels completely hijacked by their phone, they're anxious, maybe they feel really disconnected from themselves.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:10.960
What's another non-tech practice that they can do to regulate their nervous systems, maybe even before they pick up their device?
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:14.480
Take three deep breaths into your belly.
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:18.160
Even one will do something.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:32.480
And then the other recommendation I would say is actually, and I am generally a fairly um gentle person.
00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:55.920
So this is difficult for me to say, but I would actually recommend not being so gentle because what you have to do if you want to feel better is hard because the system is designed with such power, such pervasiveness, it's difficult.
00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:01.119
And so that doesn't mean it's not doable.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:07.680
But I'm not gonna lie to you and say, like, oh yeah, you can just gently be okay.
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:08.559
It's hard.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:10.079
It's gonna be hard.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:23.519
And you have to put the phone down, you have to go outside, you have to take deep breaths, you have to really feel your grief, cry, scream into the earth, feel your emotions and put the pacifier away.
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:26.319
Just put it away.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:32.079
And I I wish I could say, oh, if you just gently taper off and blah, blah, blah.
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:44.880
But if you are really in it, what you need is to put it down and probably cry a lot and sleep a lot because your nervous system is probably fried from that constant simulation.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:49.839
And I say this to you again, this is not your fault that this happened.
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:54.799
It is the fault of the systems that were designed to be addictive.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:00.319
They designed intentionally to get you into exactly the situation you're in, scrolling feeling like crap.
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:13.200
But if you want out of it, you gotta put the pacifier away, really feel your feelings, journal, be in that rage, whatever it is, do that.
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:17.039
And just leave the phone alone.
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:19.039
I'm just being honest.
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:23.200
If you're really, really hooked in it, gentle, it probably isn't gonna work.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:26.079
You know, it's so interesting.
00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:28.000
I have this personal goal.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:28.960
I don't know.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:33.039
I okay, let me let me do some positive self-talk here.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:35.440
I am able to achieve my goals.
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:40.880
And so my current one is to check my phone three times a day.
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:54.480
How liberating would that be if I wasn't just checking my messages every time I finish a meeting or every time, you know, I'm eating a meal or whatever, like that would be so freeing.
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:59.680
I would have so much more mental space and clarity if I checked my phone three times a day.
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:12.400
And what you just said made me want to put a post-it note on my phone that says something like remove yourself from this digital leash or like, what is your intention right now on going back to this pacifier?
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:21.599
My intention is to have a lot of free, clear, healthy brain space and not to be constantly glued to my phone.
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:26.720
And so if I put an analog post-it note on top of the phone, maybe that would help me.
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:27.200
I don't know.
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:28.240
What do you think about that?
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:29.680
Yes, I think it does help.
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:31.599
I've actually had students do that.
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:34.720
And so it does do that and it does help.
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:36.640
I know because I've had people do it.
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:46.079
And I want to speak to that also, which is if you are in a situation where you are attempting to disentangle, experiment with all different kinds of things.
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:51.359
Because the other thing is, just like anything, there is no one size fits all approach.
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:59.759
And a lot of the digital detox programs will tell you there is, but they don't work in the long run because each, it's like food.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:03.519
Each person eats different things.
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:07.599
And some people eat a lot of bread and feel okay, and some people eat a lot of cheese and feel okay.
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:10.000
And other people say that much cheese, they would die.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:11.039
Right.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:20.400
And so when you're attempting to sort out your relationship with media consumption, you're gonna have to experiment and try out different things.
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:27.279
There's no someone outside of you that can say, if you just do this, then you'll be okay.
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:30.640
That's not how it works.
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.200
But that I think is a great idea.
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:35.519
And if you're feeling called to it, do that.
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:39.039
Test out having different apps or locks on your phone.
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:42.400
I've had people had success with the lock devices.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:45.119
So there are devices that like lock your phone at home.
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:46.480
Use Opal.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:49.039
Yeah.
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:52.480
Opal is really great.
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:56.480
Yeah, so experiment and then treat it like a fun experiment.
00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:02.640
This is the experiment of your life and your liberation from the control of the media systems.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:04.000
How epic.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:06.319
What an amazing movie to be in.
00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:08.000
That's so true.
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:15.360
To bring this full circle, you advocate deeply for human agency and imagination.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:28.880
So, how can reclaiming our attention from these major tech entities be an act of profound courage, self-protection, and empowerment for our future relationships?
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:30.880
I love that question so much.
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:32.000
It hits everything.
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:34.400
Imagination, liberation.
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:39.440
We are so much more powerful than we've been told.
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:52.800
And we've been conditioned, or I like the word actually programmed into certain beliefs by these media companies and entities that do not care about our health, vitality, and well-being.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:56.400
In fact, they're incentivized by the exact opposite.
00:34:56.400 --> 00:35:03.039
And so when you begin to restore your attention, your health is going to start to come back.
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:05.599
And you're going to start to feel better and you're going to feel clarity.
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:09.360
And when you start to feel clarity, then your imagination is going to open back up.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:09.760
Right.
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:14.159
So what happens is we get scared and we get stressed and our perception narrows.
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:18.079
And now we can only see this very tiny sliver of possibility.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:22.159
But when we begin to remove the fear-generating device, i.e.
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:27.440
social media, and take that away, now we start to feel safe again.
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:29.440
And then our imagination starts to expand again.
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:36.079
And now we can see all kinds of new possibilities, not only for ourselves, but for the collective humanity.
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:39.679
What is it that we want for the earth?
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:40.480
What is it?
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:52.159
Who is the kind of person that we actually want to be to show up fully sovereign and free in that new relationship that is inevitably waiting for us once we begin to believe it is possible again?
00:35:52.159 --> 00:36:07.119
Once we stop comparing ourselves to people online, when we let all of that go, turn inside, become stable first, and then begin to see new possibilities.
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:09.360
And now we've got our focus restored.
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:14.880
So not only can we see the new possibilities, but we have the ability to focus on them.
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:22.159
And our attention and focus is the most powerful generative force on this planet.
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:24.400
That's why the tech companies want it so bad.
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:26.159
They know what it's worth.
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:28.800
And you do too.
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:33.199
So know that deep inside yourself.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:35.199
Say it to yourself as much as you need to.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:36.960
I know the power of my attention.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.800
I know the power of my intent.
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:43.840
And then slowly, and maybe to the gentle thing.
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:45.440
Say one gentle thing.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:51.519
The time to be gentle is when you relapse because you inevitably will.
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.639
So that is a good time to be gentle with yourself.
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:59.519
But when you are attempting to get it out, that's not the time to be gentle.
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:02.159
Then be firm, be strong, be clear.
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:03.039
No.
00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:05.760
No more of this hijacking.
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.320
But then when it gets you, then be gentle.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:09.199
Oh shucks.
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:11.599
Like you would with a little kid when they fall.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:14.880
You're not like, oh, I can't believe you can't walk, you suck.
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:15.920
No.
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:17.360
You know?
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:18.239
It's okay.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:19.519
Let's get up and try again.
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:24.960
So imagination and liberation.
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:26.639
That is the future.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:28.559
You have a choice.
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:29.760
You have a choice.
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:30.480
You have a choice.
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:31.119
You have a choice.
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:32.239
You have a choice.
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:34.800
Say it until it's true.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:37.599
That is so inspirational.
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:46.480
How can listeners and viewers connect with you so that they can learn more about your work and watch the video series that I just watched?
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:55.679
So when I worked in the university, I released a Coursera course that's called Reclaim Your Attention, Values Aligned Media Consumption.
00:37:55.679 --> 00:38:01.119
But I have also released all of those videos for free on YouTube.
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:08.400
So you don't get as much accountability that way, but it is, I think Gretta can vouch for, still really helpful.
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:12.880
And so if you want to find that, I am at Dr.
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:15.280
Annie Margaret in YouTube.
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:20.000
You can look us up at postinternetproject.org.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:23.920
That's where all of my coaching and one-on-one sessions work.
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:25.920
I also do small group cohorts.
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:32.480
So if you and a group of friends are interested, that works the best because then you have the social accountability and you're doing it together.
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:37.039
So if you and a couple friends want to begin this journey, please reach out.
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:41.599
Yeah, those are the general places you can find me.
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:43.840
I'm also at anymargaret.com.
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:46.159
Please reach out.
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:47.199
I'm here to help.
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:51.920
Well, I'm so glad you joined me today.
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:54.320
Thank you so much for being here.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:56.480
You're welcome.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:57.840
It's a blessing and an honor.
00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:58.719
Thanks, Gretta.
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:07.039
And for all the listeners and viewers, please subscribe to my YouTube and the podcast.
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:20.079
And yes, even coping with ghosting on social media, even if you just click the follow button, that will help show my work to other people who really need it.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:25.840
I'm not saying for you to go scroll through all the videos, but if you want to, you absolutely can.
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:28.559
That might be really helpful for you too.
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:36.079
I also provide a free coping with ghosting support group that is located on Facebook.
00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:45.280
And finally, I want you to remember that no matter what you're facing, you're not alone and you're worthy of care and connection.
00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:47.519
You deserve the best.