Ep 209, Midcareer Development

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Welcome to Conflict Managed. I'm your host, Merry Brown.
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This week on Conflict Managed, we welcome Lucy Standing. Lucy is a charter psychologist,
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founder of Brave Starts, and vice chair of the Association of Business Psychology.
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She was previously global head of recruitment in the investment bank and strategy
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consulting sector across JPMorgan and LEK Consulting.
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Lucy is co-author of the new book Age Against the Machine, a book that argues
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the talent shortage gripping British businesses isn't a talent problem,
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it's a filtering problem.
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The most experienced, emotionally intelligent, highest performing workers in
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the room are being screened out by algorithms, assumptions, and by hiring systems
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built for a workforce that no longer exists.
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Lucy has spoken in the UK Parliament on this issue, contributed research to
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the OECD on aging and employment policy, and writes a regular column for the Daily Telegraph.
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As founder of the Brave Starts CIC, a career development community of over 2,000
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people navigating midlife work transitions, she isn't just making a theoretical argument.
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She has thousands of real stories to back it up.
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Good morning, Lucy, and welcome to Conflict Managed. It's very nice to be here,
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Merry. Thank you very much for having me.
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I know we're going to have a fabulous conversation today. I can't wait to talk
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about your brand new book that has just come out.
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But before we get to that, I would like to hear about the first job you ever had as a young person.
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The first job I ever had was working, I grew up in Hong Kong.
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So I actually worked for a restaurant chain called LA Cafe,
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which is a rather odd name for a Hong Kong based restaurant
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but I was a hostess so I
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would meet and greet people as they walked in and show them to their tables
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I'd also sort of help plan the sort of seating you know all of the reservations
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for the day when I got in I planned so that all of the waiters would get equal
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spoils for the tips and things and yeah that was it was my first job and I did
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that two summers in a row.
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What was that like? So when you went to work, did you feel, was it supportive?
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Was it scary? Was it, what was it like?
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Well, I mean, in many ways, it was an absolutely brilliant job because it wasn't
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the sort of role that was going to dictate or predict the rest of my life.
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I knew it was a summer job and it was a fun summer job,
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but I didn't have all of the resources at that
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point to maybe say no a little bit more hard
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and a bit more you know with a bit more authority so I
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do remember there being quite a strong culture around drinking
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and of course with it being a bar and
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a restaurant the you know it was very much de
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rigueur that at the end of the day you'd sit around the bar and have a few drinks
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with your work colleagues and because I was finishing my university my summer
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holidays going back to university so they'd know I was leaving the tradition
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was anyone who was leaving would You'd be forced to drink a couple of really
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quite potent cocktails.
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And if you didn't drink them, you'd get thrown in the fountain outside.
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And I didn't want to drink the cocktail because I knew it had Sambuca in it, which I hate.
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But I also didn't want to get thrown outside. So stupidly, I did cave into peer
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pressure and I drank them.
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And let's just say, let's just put it this way. I spent the rest of that evening
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on a friend's balcony throwing up over the balcony.
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I mean, actually, it was OK in the end, but genuinely really quite dangerous.
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Yeah. It can sound like harmless fun, as we know that people die from alcohol
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poisoning and hazing, right?
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That's it's hazing there's a reason why we don't do it yeah
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you know and i was one of my when i went to university one
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of the kids in the first year in the block
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that we were living in died from that so
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way too much alcohol one night choked on
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his own vomit died i mean how ridiculous it's awful it's awful yeah it is it
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is a an excellent reminder of why we do have certain standards of behavior and
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why something that might look like harmless fun really is not,
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right? That's highly dangerous.
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Yeah, it is. I mean, I think 99 times out of 100, it's usually okay.
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But yeah, being older and wiser to not want to be the 1% is something that I
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think takes a bit of maturity to get to.
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Yeah. And you mentioned peer pressure, like we're subject to that.
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A lot of times, So we think about that for the young worker or for the younger person.
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But I'm sure you see in your work, as I do in mine, that peer pressure never goes away.
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It's how are we going to decide to deal with it?
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How are we going to show up when somebody is pressuring or a whole group is
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pressuring us to do something that doesn't feel right or that actually might
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be illegal or just against our own moral code?
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I mean, I would say the way that I see that show up with our members and the
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kind of the workshops that we run, the discussions we have,
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I would say that the men that I work with probably struggle most,
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as in, if I'm going to have a conversation with somebody,
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most of the women that I deal with have strong social support around them and
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they have strong peer-to-peer network.
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With with men the difference is very subtle
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so there actually aren't very big differences between men and women
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but societally you know if a group of women
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get together they're probably more likely to talk about feelings
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impact emotions when the men get together it's a little bit more the latest
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deal whatever is going on in sports there is less space for them and i guess
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a bit less availability and potentially less societal structure for them to
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kind of go oh look i i'm not really enjoying my job or look,
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I've been made redundant and look,
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I'm really struggling to find work again.
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The mechanisms for them to be able to share that seem to be fewer and far between.
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So I find a lot of the men that I deal with will struggle with the expectation
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that's put upon them and they don't often have an outlet to voice their anxieties,
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their struggles, their concerns.
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It's a really good point because when we have these expectations that are put on us and we're not sure,
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it is so very helpful to have somebody or
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a group to process that with instead of we're just when we
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don't do it outside we're just kind of stuck in
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these loops and we've got this our own narrative instead of sometimes just saying
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it can help us figure it out but if we don't do that or we don't have an outlet
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then we can get I think really easily stuck and reduce our possibilities because
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we're not thinking collaboratively or a group or we're just we're spinning in ourselves and,
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And I think that's one of the reasons why I put such strong emphasis on dialogue,
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discussion, conversation, connection.
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You know, we don't have one meeting that's a webinar.
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I refuse to do anything where we're just talking at people or we're not even
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I mean, whilst we have a resources section, this is the nonprofit I run.
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Whilst I've got a resources section, it's not really where we're sending people
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to spend hours and hours of time doing e-learning or anything like that,
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because it is the most unengaging form of learning.
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And that isn't what brings people back time and time again.
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If you're actually having to discuss and answer questions, why do you do that?
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What makes you worry about that? What help would you like next?
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That idea sounds okay, but what about, have you thought about this,
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that, or the other? When you actually have a dialogue.
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Puts whatever thinking you've got in your head, it kind of pushes it down to
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a next layer of processing because now you have to justify, you have to answer,
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you have to articulate your anxieties about things.
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So it just, it takes it from one particular level and just pushes it down another
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stage, which I think has the impact of it being more potent.
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But certainly as far as reward is concerned.
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If somebody is articulating an answer to something, if they are communicating
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an anxiety and they're getting some form of feedback from that that's live,
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that's empathetic, that's supportive, then actually that as an experience is far more rewarding.
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And I think in a world, maybe we'll go on and talk about this later,
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but in a world of AI and constant private equity firms wanting to sort of support
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and invest in the software as a service, subscription models,
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passive income, blah, blah, blah. I think, yeah, you know what?
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I'm hopefully building the model that's scalable, but human in connection.
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Yeah. Because it's just more effective. You know, people just don't engage as
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effectively with something that is passive and non-interactive.
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100% agree. Absolutely. You know, it's the thing about technology is we,
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and we have all these tools but sometimes we just fall in
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love with technology and and we want it
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to work we want it to do this certain sort of thing but then we forget but
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who is it serving if technology is serving us and we're human
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persons and then we have to understand how human persons really are how they
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really work what really motivates them and unfortunately for the vast majority
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of us it's not clicking through a series of videos and they're like oh okay
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i've got it and this has seeped into me and now I'm going to make these changes and this is, you know,
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not that we can't learn bits of information, but we're more than algorithms.
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We're not bits of information. So we need something else.
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Yeah, I completely agree. So, Lucy, I want to talk about your nonprofit, Brave Starts.
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But before we get to that, I want to know how you got into this space.
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So can you just take us a little bit through like what you studied at university
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and your career trajectory to get to where you are today?
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Yeah, my well, so I'm a chartered business psychologist.
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And so that's my sort of my professional hat. And I have been a psychologist
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pretty much my entire life. So obviously, at university, there was the odd job
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that you're doing, like the waitressing and so on to sort of help supplement a bit of income.
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But my sort of my serious job, if you like, started, you know,
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I did my degree in psychology at university.
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My first job ever was actually working in an executive search firm.
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But I think the more colloquial name that you might refer to that is as headhunting.
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So I did headhunting for a year and I absolutely
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hated it it was repetitive it was
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dull it was I felt I had no integrity because
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I was lying to people the whole time you know it was in the days before
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LinkedIn it was in the days where you'd have to contact through switchboards
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make up excuses for why you needed to talk to people pretended
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I was a journalist so that I could get through to certain people ask them all
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sorts of questions and then and then bare-faced lie about why I was asking these
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questions and people were so you know generous with information I I couldn't
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even send an email afterwards to say thank you from a Financial Times email
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address or whatever excuse I was lying about.
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So I absolutely hated that role. And I thought, right, if I loved my degree,
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I'm going to go back and do my master's and do this properly.
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So I went back and did my master's.
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From there, my first job was working in an investment bank.
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And that was really where it all started on. So I was managing graduate recruitment.
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And actually, it was probably that first job that made me realise how poor so
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many forms of assessment are.
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So, you know, we used to run assessment centres.
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And these assessment centres, we would ask people to do things like interviews,
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case study exercises, role plays, group exercises and things.
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There was one interview and that was done by the managing director.
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And when I followed up two years later, and we looked at how these graduates
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performed in their roles, and we'd sort of go, let's look at the bonuses,
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a percentage of salary, line manager ratings, and how happy they are in their jobs.
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The assessment exercise that had not only no correlation, but a negative correlation
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with people's performance two years later was the managing director interview.
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So in other words, we had managing directors go, I can spot an investment banker
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the minute they walk in through the door. And of course, they couldn't.
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They could spot people who are probably quite confident, well-dressed,
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you know, these sorts of things.
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If anything, they ruined and undermined the effectiveness of the process.
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So then I was like, hmm, very interesting information.
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But of course, comparing the grads with interns was where things got really interesting.
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Because of course interns would come in and some of them would get offered
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a job at the end of the summer and some of them would
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say i never want to work in an investment bank
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ever again thanks but no thanks others would
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turn around and go oh my god my dream i've loved
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this summer and in inevitably again two years later the ones who tended to be
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the best performers were the ones who were interns that had converted into the
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jobs as opposed to the grads so what that tells us is that people make better
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decisions for the business if they are allowed to self-select the job for themselves.
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So, you know, if we give people more insight into the job,
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They will make a better decision about whether or not they want that job.
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And ultimately, that's then better for the company.
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And yet here in 2026, we are still in a scenario where for most jobs,
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the way that we find out about them is through a job description.
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No conversation, something on a website or worse than that, a jobs portal.
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And then the way that we apply for it is easy apply, no effort needed.
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You can do 500 applications in a day with LinkedIn if you like.
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So zero effort required. And that leads to probably the worst outcome.
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And so, you know, that's a bit of a long-winded way of saying the reason I do
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the work I do now and the whole Brave Starts piece is it's come from lots and
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lots of pieces of experience all stitched together over the course of my life.
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It started in graduate recruitment, but actually it's also come from things
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like designing e-learning modules that I know nobody ever looks at.
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You know, it comes from running courses where I know people enjoy the face-to-face element most.
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And all of that insight comes together to build Brave Starts.
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And the reason we've built Brave Starts is because I think adults need career
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guidance just as much as students at university do.
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And we know that the world is
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ageist. So there are specific barriers that people face as they get older.
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And actually, you know, helping support people through that and helping them
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understand that they're going to have to do things differently.
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Doesn't take someone talking to them the whole time. It takes someone who does
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show them the reality, gives them the insight, but then facilitates them to
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talk to each other, to want to meet again because they've met each other last time.
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And it's a great group and I want to get together next week.
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And then because we've given you the insight, how are you going to start doing things differently?
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Let's see how that plays out over the next few weeks and months.
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Is that more effective or less effective, and so on and so forth.
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So everything that we're doing is about trying to push people to understand
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more about the reality that they're up against, have more agency about what
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it is that they do to take control over their lives.
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But ultimately, so that they're in a position where they can carry on working,
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making a contribution to the world of work. You know, as far as I'm concerned, forever.
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You know, I would like a world where people don't ever retire.
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But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying everyone has to work five days a week
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for the rest of their lives.
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I think I want to take the 25 years of retirement and just sprinkle it across the course of our lives.
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I don't mind if there's someone in his 90s who's doing two mornings a week,
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but I also don't mind if there's someone who's 28 that decides,
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I've just had two young children. I'm going to take a two-year break right now.
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Right. Thinking about work in a very different way is what I hear that you're saying.
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And from the beginning. So whether it's our first job or we are mid-career and
00:16:31.681 --> 00:16:38.421
we want to change careers, the question is, how do we find that shift when there
00:16:38.421 --> 00:16:40.021
aren't these mechanisms out there?
00:16:40.501 --> 00:16:44.721
It's, okay, I studied this, and so I'm going to go into this profession.
00:16:44.941 --> 00:16:50.321
And I think, I mean, many of us know people who did one thing at university
00:16:50.321 --> 00:16:53.341
and showed up in that career, and now they're not doing that anymore because
00:16:53.341 --> 00:16:59.221
once they get into the job, the job of it, the day in, the day out, it's not satisfying.
00:16:59.221 --> 00:17:02.501
It's not what they thought it was going to be. It doesn't suit them.
00:17:02.921 --> 00:17:05.281
And then mid-career, if we think about changing careers, again,
00:17:05.341 --> 00:17:09.281
it's like, okay, well, who did I have contact with? What do I imagine this is?
00:17:09.281 --> 00:17:12.001
Maybe you have more of an idea because you've been in the world of work,
00:17:12.101 --> 00:17:16.601
but still this particular job, what it actually looks like day and day.
00:17:17.201 --> 00:17:25.901
And so just finding, you know, what career is going to be suited to me is seems
00:17:25.901 --> 00:17:31.601
like there are lots of answers to that, but we don't seem to be doing that in society.
00:17:31.601 --> 00:17:34.261
There aren't very many cultures or really i
00:17:34.261 --> 00:17:37.581
don't know really any culture that says let's practice let's
00:17:37.581 --> 00:17:40.621
do all these different sorts of things to find out what resonates with
00:17:40.621 --> 00:17:43.901
you and therefore that's best for you and the organization and society
00:17:43.901 --> 00:17:46.841
yeah i mean you you get
00:17:46.841 --> 00:17:51.361
snippets of it there's not you're right there's not much but you know there
00:17:51.361 --> 00:17:55.521
are case studies there are stories of people who've kind of done things like
00:17:55.521 --> 00:18:01.361
you know i've done 24 jobs in 24 weeks or I took a year out to do as many jobs
00:18:01.361 --> 00:18:05.681
as I wanted in order to learn all of the different options that there are.
00:18:06.666 --> 00:18:13.546
So it's not, it's definitely not common. My niece, I think, has almost taken a leaf out of my book.
00:18:13.786 --> 00:18:16.946
You know, she's sort of saying, right, she's finished university now.
00:18:17.286 --> 00:18:22.086
And she's going, I'm going to, there are sort of four or five things that I'm really interested in.
00:18:22.406 --> 00:18:27.746
So I'm going to work really hard to secure my self-work experience doing those four or five things.
00:18:28.146 --> 00:18:31.106
And then I will make a decision at the end of that year.
00:18:31.226 --> 00:18:34.426
But I'm going to treat this year as a as a
00:18:34.426 --> 00:18:37.066
learning year and in fact that's what she's done so she
00:18:37.066 --> 00:18:40.226
did strategy consulting she did civil service she did
00:18:40.226 --> 00:18:43.166
work in a startup pharmaceutical something or other
00:18:43.166 --> 00:18:48.306
i forget the last one but out of all of oh the last one was legal that was the
00:18:48.306 --> 00:18:51.646
one that she was like okay i think i'm going to go down the legal route which
00:18:51.646 --> 00:18:55.926
does mean going back to the draw board and doing another degree or a conversion
00:18:55.926 --> 00:19:00.826
but actually she now knows she's like that's my tribe it's the people I think
00:19:00.826 --> 00:19:01.646
are the most impressive.
00:19:02.026 --> 00:19:05.586
It's the thing I will feel most proud about, you know, in 10 years time when
00:19:05.586 --> 00:19:07.506
I look back, that's what I'm going to feel really proud about.
00:19:08.086 --> 00:19:12.826
So in terms of informing, yes, it's costed her a year of her life,
00:19:12.986 --> 00:19:16.886
but she's far more confident about what it is that she's going into now.
00:19:17.066 --> 00:19:20.666
But she's about to invest 10 years, right? Those 10 years are things,
00:19:21.006 --> 00:19:22.946
you know, it's the pensions you're going to be contributing to,
00:19:23.086 --> 00:19:26.606
it's the networks you're going to be building, it's the pride you're going to
00:19:26.606 --> 00:19:30.866
be feeling, it's the bed at night, the quality of sleep you're going to have.
00:19:30.986 --> 00:19:35.486
I mean, it's just, given that schools and universities aren't going to do this
00:19:35.486 --> 00:19:39.006
for us, doesn't it make sense that actually we carve a bit of time ourselves
00:19:39.006 --> 00:19:43.186
out now to do some of this experimentation so that we do make better decisions?
00:19:43.936 --> 00:19:49.976
I love that so much. It's such a great idea. It seems to me that what we ask of young people.
00:19:50.736 --> 00:19:56.156
So I know where I live in West Tennessee in the States, I remember all of my
00:19:56.156 --> 00:20:00.356
children when they were in elementary school, they would have like a university
00:20:00.356 --> 00:20:03.896
day, wear a jersey from a university where you want to go to.
00:20:04.076 --> 00:20:08.056
And the question is from a very early age, what is it you want to do? What do you want to do?
00:20:08.356 --> 00:20:11.176
Or what do you want to major in as they get a little bit older?
00:20:11.416 --> 00:20:13.356
Or do you want to go into what kind of trade.
00:20:14.036 --> 00:20:19.756
And so we're, you know, when they're 12, 13, 14, what do you want to do? What do you want to do?
00:20:19.916 --> 00:20:24.116
And as if you would know, first of all, that you would know what the options
00:20:24.116 --> 00:20:27.616
are, and then you would know necessarily what resonates with you. Now, some people do.
00:20:27.776 --> 00:20:31.036
Some people come out knowing I want to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher,
00:20:31.556 --> 00:20:33.336
engineer, whatever it might be.
00:20:33.836 --> 00:20:40.116
But so many students, young people feel behind, even when they're entering university
00:20:40.116 --> 00:20:41.836
because they don't know what they want to major in.
00:20:42.356 --> 00:20:46.396
And then they invest all this time and this money in this one thing and they
00:20:46.396 --> 00:20:49.376
come out and now they feel either stuck or compelled.
00:20:50.416 --> 00:20:56.696
Instead of what you're saying, right, this space to really investigate because
00:20:56.696 --> 00:21:00.656
that investment you're putting up front might be a tough ask.
00:21:00.696 --> 00:21:04.596
And of course, not everybody's going to be, have the support system or the lecture
00:21:04.596 --> 00:21:07.056
of being able to do that given their life situation.
00:21:07.296 --> 00:21:11.176
But if you can do that sort of fifth year or however you think about it,
00:21:11.256 --> 00:21:14.496
to decide what you're going to be doing maybe for the next 10,
00:21:14.636 --> 00:21:17.356
20, 40 years, depending if you stay in one profession.
00:21:17.816 --> 00:21:22.576
Sounds like such a wonderful investment in yourself. And I would imagine an
00:21:22.576 --> 00:21:24.736
employer would be impressed as well.
00:21:24.856 --> 00:21:27.116
You did all of this. You gained these experiences.
00:21:27.496 --> 00:21:31.396
And you chose this because you have this experience.
00:21:32.242 --> 00:21:35.642
Yeah, I would I would argue it puts them in a much stronger position to then
00:21:35.642 --> 00:21:40.442
get that job at the end of it all because they can demonstrate that the reason
00:21:40.442 --> 00:21:42.102
they want it is because they know they want it.
00:21:42.222 --> 00:21:45.162
They've done it as opposed to the other three or four things that they tried.
00:21:45.542 --> 00:21:52.142
Yeah, I mean, that's that's far more compelling than I like the idea of it or my dad did it. Right.
00:21:53.002 --> 00:21:57.602
So internships are great. And I know that you can apprentice and have internships.
00:21:58.062 --> 00:22:01.922
But sometimes, again, that's found within this little, you know,
00:22:01.982 --> 00:22:03.102
I'm majoring this one thing.
00:22:03.222 --> 00:22:06.522
And so these are the things that are available. Of course, that's better than nothing.
00:22:06.742 --> 00:22:13.742
But encouraging experience, especially as a young person, because I think nothing is ever lost.
00:22:13.942 --> 00:22:16.882
So your niece who did these four things, right?
00:22:17.062 --> 00:22:22.462
So she chose the one. But those other three, like the kinds of conversations she can have,
00:22:22.662 --> 00:22:25.942
the kinds of the ways of thinking about the world and the way of work,
00:22:26.102 --> 00:22:31.342
just by having that proximity can also make her better in her own field because
00:22:31.342 --> 00:22:32.702
of this breadth of knowledge.
00:22:32.702 --> 00:22:35.942
I think everything that we learn, we can put into our work.
00:22:36.782 --> 00:22:41.702
Completely. You know, and if we imagine it, you know, less from the perspective
00:22:41.702 --> 00:22:45.642
of someone who has no idea because they're leaving university and they've not
00:22:45.642 --> 00:22:47.942
yet really joined the world of work.
00:22:48.262 --> 00:22:52.242
Even if we looked at it through the lens of someone who is an experienced employee,
00:22:52.782 --> 00:22:55.322
but they've always stayed in their own lane.
00:22:55.862 --> 00:23:01.002
So I'll give you, when I did work in banking, that's probably the largest organization
00:23:01.002 --> 00:23:04.022
I've been in because a lot of other smaller organizations, I've kind of got
00:23:04.022 --> 00:23:06.182
a chance to sort of see and experience most of the roles.
00:23:06.282 --> 00:23:09.682
But certainly in banking, the larger an organization is, the more silos the roles.
00:23:10.822 --> 00:23:14.742
So, you know, you'd walk around, you'd even have security cards that would give
00:23:14.742 --> 00:23:16.482
you clearance to this floor, but not this floor.
00:23:16.682 --> 00:23:20.762
So it was really difficult to actually get an understanding what goes on behind
00:23:20.762 --> 00:23:22.662
the door. What do you actually do in this department?
00:23:23.682 --> 00:23:27.282
And yet what the research and evidence will show is that most people get,
00:23:27.849 --> 00:23:31.309
get a little bit bored after a role. All right. So once somebody's done something
00:23:31.309 --> 00:23:35.389
for between about four to eight years, obviously the more complicated and complex
00:23:35.389 --> 00:23:39.089
a role is, probably the latter, you get a bit more bored when you get sort of eight year plus.
00:23:39.589 --> 00:23:43.529
But if it's a relatively predictable kind of role that you're doing,
00:23:43.769 --> 00:23:45.489
yeah, I mean, four years, you're looking at it.
00:23:45.649 --> 00:23:50.829
So rather than just sort of say to people, right, you have to do this role forever in a day.
00:23:51.489 --> 00:23:56.249
Imagine if one day a year or even two days a year, they get to go and shadow
00:23:56.249 --> 00:24:00.569
or spend time in another part of the organization, or even if they just got
00:24:00.569 --> 00:24:04.149
to sit down with someone who is like a chief careers officer and say,
00:24:04.269 --> 00:24:05.529
like, in the job that I do now,
00:24:05.669 --> 00:24:09.249
I really like the financial modeling and I really like this,
00:24:09.329 --> 00:24:12.409
but I don't, I could do with more relationship building.
00:24:12.929 --> 00:24:16.329
You can imagine them sort of going, well, have you thought about the private
00:24:16.329 --> 00:24:17.809
bank part of the organization?
00:24:18.009 --> 00:24:23.049
Or have you thought about working in telecoms or, or anything like that,
00:24:23.129 --> 00:24:26.089
in which case they might go, well, we could set you up to go and spend a day
00:24:26.089 --> 00:24:30.489
in telecoms, or we can set you up to go and have a day in HR, for example.
00:24:30.829 --> 00:24:33.809
And as you say, nothing's ever lost. Because if somebody was to come and spend
00:24:33.809 --> 00:24:39.769
a day working with me as it was in the time in HR, they might leave with a higher
00:24:39.769 --> 00:24:44.049
degree of respect for all the stuff that you get done and achieve in a day.
00:24:44.629 --> 00:24:47.209
But way more understanding is that when I come and knock on their door and go,
00:24:47.369 --> 00:24:48.649
hey, I really need some help.
00:24:48.689 --> 00:24:52.649
We've got a load of interviews we need to resource for? Could you give me a couple of hours?
00:24:53.089 --> 00:24:56.489
You might find that they turn around and go, sure, I know what you're doing
00:24:56.489 --> 00:24:57.489
for the organization now.
00:24:57.649 --> 00:25:01.049
So I just think even if they'd make a decision to say, I never want to work
00:25:01.049 --> 00:25:04.409
in that department, I thank God I'm going to go back to my job slightly more energized.
00:25:05.069 --> 00:25:10.069
But if everyone understands a little bit more about what everyone does, how is that a bad thing?
00:25:10.909 --> 00:25:14.409
Yeah, I mean, it's wonderful. So we all know that stuff gets done because of networking.
00:25:14.689 --> 00:25:19.429
So that's internal and external networking. The more you know that what somebody
00:25:19.429 --> 00:25:23.729
does that they're there the more you can be a resource for them and vice versa
00:25:23.729 --> 00:25:28.609
and so even in a ginormous organization obviously in a small organization the
00:25:28.609 --> 00:25:32.049
more you do that the more you know the more you know the more,
00:25:32.864 --> 00:25:36.884
things that you can be drawn from, that you can draw from, and then more of
00:25:36.884 --> 00:25:38.444
your talents can be used.
00:25:38.964 --> 00:25:43.264
Yeah. And I do tend to think the larger the organization, the more you consciously
00:25:43.264 --> 00:25:45.324
have to think about putting these things in place.
00:25:45.604 --> 00:25:49.904
You know, I mean, when I was, I used to run my own hotel, slightly random left
00:25:49.904 --> 00:25:52.284
field thing, but I mean, I did it because I did it with my brother.
00:25:52.544 --> 00:25:56.744
But when you've got 12 bedrooms and somebody phones in sick and they say,
00:25:56.904 --> 00:25:59.444
I can't do the housekeeping today, whether you want it or not,
00:25:59.604 --> 00:26:01.844
you're changing the beds, you're cleaning the toilets.
00:26:02.084 --> 00:26:05.244
So the smaller an organization, you don't have to think about.
00:26:05.824 --> 00:26:08.184
Oh, do we rotate people around and give them exposure?
00:26:08.344 --> 00:26:10.844
You're going to get the exposure, whether you want it or not.
00:26:11.124 --> 00:26:15.524
But yeah, as I say, the larger an organization gets, the more I think you have
00:26:15.524 --> 00:26:19.104
to be more conscious about how do you give people those experiences so they
00:26:19.104 --> 00:26:20.284
can make more informed choices.
00:26:20.764 --> 00:26:24.624
And even thinking of it as a good for the organization, because a lot of times,
00:26:24.684 --> 00:26:27.624
why do people stay in one position and they aren't developed?
00:26:27.864 --> 00:26:31.724
Well, because they're this asset. I need you to do this. You do this so well.
00:26:31.844 --> 00:26:37.004
And if you're not doing it, if you look someplace else, then I've got to fill this hole.
00:26:37.204 --> 00:26:40.624
Then I've got to, right? And so when we think about, somebody might think,
00:26:40.744 --> 00:26:46.124
well, organizationally, it's better if Betty stays in this position until she retires.
00:26:46.684 --> 00:26:50.784
It's short-sighted. It may not be best for her and the organization.
00:26:51.004 --> 00:26:54.884
Now, of course, it may. It depends, right? But if we don't ask those questions,
00:26:55.024 --> 00:26:56.384
we don't give people opportunities,
00:26:56.704 --> 00:27:01.184
then we don't see how the organization benefits and we don't see how individual
00:27:01.184 --> 00:27:06.284
contributors benefit and all that can go in engagement and longevity,
00:27:06.904 --> 00:27:12.144
institutional knowledge, prizing all of these, prizing individuals so that we
00:27:12.144 --> 00:27:15.824
have more satisfaction all the way around.
00:27:16.024 --> 00:27:18.924
So, Lizzie, you talked a little bit about Brave Starts, but I'm not sure our
00:27:18.924 --> 00:27:21.784
audience really knows who it's for.
00:27:21.984 --> 00:27:26.664
So this is, tell us a little bit about who it's for and then and tell us about your book.
00:27:27.354 --> 00:27:34.134
So Brave Starts is for anyone who wants to remain engaged in the world of work.
00:27:34.434 --> 00:27:39.234
Typically, they're over the age of 45, but we can't age discriminate.
00:27:39.654 --> 00:27:45.954
It's just that most people have this issue of struggling to get access to good
00:27:45.954 --> 00:27:47.554
quality careers advice,
00:27:47.554 --> 00:27:53.714
and they struggle to access jobs as they get older because ageism is a genuinely
00:27:53.714 --> 00:27:55.734
big, severe, real issue.
00:27:56.854 --> 00:27:59.694
So therefore most of the people that
00:27:59.694 --> 00:28:02.594
come to us come to us with that in mind and it
00:28:02.594 --> 00:28:05.934
and it works because we do also this is where we have a lot of our knowledge
00:28:05.934 --> 00:28:10.214
we support people to understand how their age can be an asset so i guess typically
00:28:10.214 --> 00:28:14.894
when you look at our website and it's sort of saying age is an asset and now
00:28:14.894 --> 00:28:20.194
that you're over 45 and whatever so that yeah we've got a lot of people in their 40s,
00:28:20.254 --> 00:28:22.594
50s, 60s who want to work,
00:28:22.854 --> 00:28:25.534
but for whatever trigger might struggle.
00:28:25.794 --> 00:28:29.434
Could be that getting divorced, could be they've been made redundant, could be they're bored.
00:28:29.774 --> 00:28:34.694
The triggers are numerous, but they very much want work to remain part of their life.
00:28:34.774 --> 00:28:37.614
They want to be engaged by their work. They want to feel it's something purposeful,
00:28:37.674 --> 00:28:40.494
that they're making a conscious choice about what it is that they're doing at
00:28:40.494 --> 00:28:46.314
this point in their lives, as opposed to just staying on that autopilot button. So that's what we do.
00:28:48.015 --> 00:28:53.095
The underpinning of what we're trying to achieve. So I don't have a goal of
00:28:53.095 --> 00:28:56.555
getting people, for example, who are unemployed to be employed.
00:28:57.255 --> 00:29:02.115
My goal is that people leave after going through our workshops and programs,
00:29:02.375 --> 00:29:07.115
being much clearer on what it is that they want, having a stronger network,
00:29:07.675 --> 00:29:09.555
feeling more confident and optimistic,
00:29:10.275 --> 00:29:14.975
feeling that they understand the issues so that they're able to successfully
00:29:14.975 --> 00:29:17.015
navigate the next few years.
00:29:17.015 --> 00:29:23.055
Because genuinely, I have people that come to me, 68% of our members are in full-time jobs.
00:29:23.475 --> 00:29:27.435
So they will be coming to me saying, I don't want to work full-time anymore.
00:29:27.595 --> 00:29:30.035
You know, I actually want to dial back a bit.
00:29:30.475 --> 00:29:34.435
I'm curious. I want to do something different. I want to explore my options.
00:29:34.435 --> 00:29:37.675
I want to see what's out there in the world. I want to make a conscious decision and so on.
00:29:37.775 --> 00:29:41.895
So, you know, hence, those are what we're looking at.
00:29:42.055 --> 00:29:44.735
If people have got clarity, if they've got a strong network,
00:29:44.995 --> 00:29:49.495
if they feel confident, you know, if they've got all of that resource at the
00:29:49.495 --> 00:29:54.335
end of that, that's a much stronger predictor for them being successful in whatever
00:29:54.335 --> 00:29:55.215
it is that they want to do.
00:29:55.435 --> 00:29:59.175
You know, getting a non-exec direct position, doing their own startup business.
00:29:59.775 --> 00:30:03.095
Going back into whatever sector it was that they've left.
00:30:03.375 --> 00:30:06.155
You know, it's that that's really what we're looking at.
00:30:06.686 --> 00:30:10.966
It is so wonderful because when we get stuck, a lot of it is lack of clarity.
00:30:11.206 --> 00:30:15.566
I don't know what to do. I don't know what's really going on.
00:30:15.646 --> 00:30:20.026
I know I want something else. I know this isn't working, but what's not working?
00:30:20.246 --> 00:30:23.906
What are my options? So many times, again, when we're stuck in our head and
00:30:23.906 --> 00:30:28.606
we don't have support, we've narrowed our options because we just,
00:30:29.086 --> 00:30:34.386
whatever it is, the stress, uncertainty, the whatever's going on inside of us,
00:30:34.526 --> 00:30:36.126
just we get kind of closed down.
00:30:36.126 --> 00:30:41.486
And so having clarity, being opened up to really look at the options and if
00:30:41.486 --> 00:30:44.306
I do this, what might happen is very important.
00:30:44.446 --> 00:30:48.426
And I love this because we don't talk so much about mid-career development.
00:30:49.046 --> 00:30:53.226
We talk about it, you know, career development is for the person who is just
00:30:53.226 --> 00:30:56.166
leaving the university or whatever, educational.
00:30:56.366 --> 00:31:00.806
And so we think about what is your next thing rather than I've been in the world of work.
00:31:01.186 --> 00:31:03.446
What is my next thing? Yeah.
00:31:04.192 --> 00:31:08.452
And I guess this is where it sort of starts to relate to what we've been doing
00:31:08.452 --> 00:31:13.812
with the book, which is, you know, obviously with life expectancy pushing outwards, because,
00:31:13.952 --> 00:31:19.792
you know, most retirement was developed at a time where life expectancy was
00:31:19.792 --> 00:31:21.312
going to be sort of mid 60s.
00:31:21.312 --> 00:31:24.452
I mean, if we take the example of the UK, for example, you know,
00:31:24.612 --> 00:31:30.512
mass retirement was sort of bought in in about 1948 when life expectancy was
00:31:30.512 --> 00:31:34.012
66 and retirement age was 65.
00:31:34.412 --> 00:31:38.972
So, you know, we were expected to be retired for one year, whereas now people
00:31:38.972 --> 00:31:42.292
have got this sort of huge amount of time. You know, some people are living.
00:31:42.612 --> 00:31:45.112
It's not unusual nowadays for people to make it to 100.
00:31:45.592 --> 00:31:50.872
You know, Andrew Scott, Linda Gratton, famous for their 100 year life.
00:31:51.312 --> 00:31:56.912
But the reality of all this extended time means that careers have gone from
00:31:56.912 --> 00:32:01.492
being 40 years to, you know, it could be 60, 70, 80 years, right?
00:32:01.692 --> 00:32:07.992
So over the course of that period of time, there is going to be significant amounts of change.
00:32:08.352 --> 00:32:15.372
And yet most entry points for most jobs are targeted at people who are in their early 20s.
00:32:15.372 --> 00:32:20.732
You know, it's pretty rare to come across an organization that is actively recruiting
00:32:20.732 --> 00:32:26.532
people who are, you know, in their 40s, 50s, 60s to come and do an entry level job.
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:30.920
Yeah, it's really interesting, too, because as you mentioned, change, right?
00:32:31.060 --> 00:32:34.400
So in the world of work, one thing that is constant right now or that we can
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:35.780
count on is that things are going to change.
00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:38.820
Now, right now we're dealing with AI and whatever that might mean,
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:42.360
but then that will morph and then we'll deal with that and then something else
00:32:42.360 --> 00:32:46.160
will come. And so in order to stay relevant, to stay engaged,
00:32:46.340 --> 00:32:50.840
you need to expect that things are going to be changing.
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:56.000
And so no matter where we are in our career, we should be expecting to be a lifelong learner,
00:32:56.180 --> 00:33:00.600
that if we aren't actively developing ourself or our organizations don't take
00:33:00.600 --> 00:33:07.340
that as a priority, then we are missing opportunities. We're putting a burden on ourself.
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:11.180
And individuals are making themselves irrelevant by saying,
00:33:11.340 --> 00:33:14.640
I mean, if you say, I don't want to learn right now what are
00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:17.940
you saying i mean you are you are
00:33:17.940 --> 00:33:20.760
making yourself irrelevant or you're falling below
00:33:20.760 --> 00:33:23.600
the digital divide however you might think about
00:33:23.600 --> 00:33:26.520
it and so if that is reality that things are constantly
00:33:26.520 --> 00:33:31.580
changing then really talking to people who are wherever you know mid level career
00:33:31.580 --> 00:33:36.720
or however you know maybe they are 50 60 and if they thought because when they
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:41.100
came into the world of work there's a sort of steady expectation whether or
00:33:41.100 --> 00:33:44.620
not it actually meets what What was happening in the world was certainly an expectation,
00:33:44.620 --> 00:33:52.200
but that expectation needs to shift in that it's not an option to opt out of
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:59.620
learning the next thing because of this long career, as you were talking about.
00:34:00.366 --> 00:34:03.546
Well, I mean, to a degree, it's an option.
00:34:03.726 --> 00:34:08.546
It's just not a successful one, right? I mean, you know, but I,
00:34:09.106 --> 00:34:13.986
my, my audience is probably slightly biased because if someone is searching
00:34:13.986 --> 00:34:18.906
this stuff out on the internet or Google, or they're talking to somebody else
00:34:18.906 --> 00:34:20.746
who goes, you should look at this organization.
00:34:20.946 --> 00:34:23.366
And then they come and they spend time looking at our website and then they
00:34:23.366 --> 00:34:27.026
commit and they pay. It's not a lot of money. It's, you know, 89 quid a year.
00:34:27.686 --> 00:34:30.446
It's not a lot but it's still you know
00:34:30.446 --> 00:34:33.666
you've got to fill out the form it's not a long form but
00:34:33.666 --> 00:34:37.466
it's a commitment and then you've got to verify your idea you know it's just
00:34:37.466 --> 00:34:40.966
there's quite a few hurdles there's quite a few steps and I would argue that
00:34:40.966 --> 00:34:45.966
that kind of individual that does that is one who's probably slightly more proactive
00:34:45.966 --> 00:34:51.086
but even then so even though I've got a skewed audience,
00:34:51.546 --> 00:34:57.506
it is not unusual for me to come across people who I would, if I'm going to
00:34:57.506 --> 00:35:02.066
be really undiplomatic about it, I would describe as being slightly entitled, right?
00:35:02.246 --> 00:35:07.926
But that sense of entitlement has come because of the kind of the past,
00:35:08.266 --> 00:35:13.486
you know, this idea that you, if you did this job at this time and you met certain
00:35:13.486 --> 00:35:16.566
goals and you, you know, you delivered certain things along the way,
00:35:16.646 --> 00:35:21.546
you would be rewarded with a big pension, job security.
00:35:23.386 --> 00:35:27.226
Seniority, status, and so on. So I understand where it's come from.
00:35:27.566 --> 00:35:33.386
But increasingly, I think that is not how things are going to work going forward.
00:35:34.026 --> 00:35:38.166
Yeah. So you mentioned ageism, ageism alive and well, unfortunately.
00:35:38.826 --> 00:35:43.426
When you say that, what do you mean and how does it show up in working places?
00:35:44.496 --> 00:35:48.836
Well, I guess it shows up in a couple of, I mean, the two main obvious ways
00:35:48.836 --> 00:35:51.896
that it shows up will be on the recruitment side of things.
00:35:52.316 --> 00:35:58.876
So, you know, as people get older, if somebody is over the age of 50 and they're
00:35:58.876 --> 00:36:04.676
applying for jobs, they will, 68% of the time, they will still be unemployed 12 months later.
00:36:04.676 --> 00:36:07.936
Whereas somebody who is half
00:36:07.936 --> 00:36:11.276
the age you know between the eight between the kind of cohort group of about
00:36:11.276 --> 00:36:17.256
25 and 35 they will only be out of work about 34 percent of the time 12 months
00:36:17.256 --> 00:36:25.216
later so the older you get the harder and harder it is to secure work so you've got the the obvious.
00:36:25.856 --> 00:36:31.196
Recruitment barrier and that's that's not just the the slightly invisible because
00:36:31.196 --> 00:36:34.616
nobody ever says to you, we're not hiring you because you're too old.
00:36:35.056 --> 00:36:39.776
It's the veiled, you know, not the right fit and these sorts of things.
00:36:39.936 --> 00:36:43.196
You can only really see the discrimination when you see the big numbers.
00:36:43.356 --> 00:36:46.376
So when you see all of the groups of people in their 50s, 60s,
00:36:46.476 --> 00:36:48.676
whatever, trying to access work versus other groups.
00:36:49.036 --> 00:36:55.496
So you've got that. And then I guess you've got the sort of the developmental ageism.
00:36:55.676 --> 00:36:59.816
So we're selecting these people for the high performance,
00:37:00.016 --> 00:37:02.836
the high potential program and so
00:37:02.836 --> 00:37:06.216
we're wanting people who are here probably
00:37:06.216 --> 00:37:12.136
full-time hitting the highest sales numbers making the most making themselves
00:37:12.136 --> 00:37:18.296
the most visible and and that sort of thing but actually that that sort of that's
00:37:18.296 --> 00:37:22.876
one section that's one group right you know it's the let's do high potential.
00:37:23.683 --> 00:37:28.363
Nobody ever really evaluates all of the high potential people think these programs are great.
00:37:28.963 --> 00:37:32.583
Not many people look at all the others who, by definition, are now no potential.
00:37:32.983 --> 00:37:37.003
You know, nobody ever evaluates them and says, hey, now that you weren't selected
00:37:37.003 --> 00:37:38.963
for that program, how do you feel?
00:37:39.483 --> 00:37:43.823
So the kind of the entirety of an organization is not predicated on,
00:37:43.983 --> 00:37:47.623
you know, the success of one small cohort.
00:37:47.623 --> 00:37:50.663
And actually if you're looking at things like engagement surveys
00:37:50.663 --> 00:37:53.683
and satisfaction at work i'd argue
00:37:53.683 --> 00:37:57.523
there's a huge space and room for improvement and i think a lot of that comes
00:37:57.523 --> 00:38:04.243
from just the lack of encouragement you know the lack of now now that it i'm
00:38:04.243 --> 00:38:09.023
not saying sit down with people and go now you're getting older let's think
00:38:09.023 --> 00:38:13.563
about your options but i think having those conversations regardless of age,
00:38:14.248 --> 00:38:15.948
You know, I'll give you one example.
00:38:16.228 --> 00:38:21.008
I think people fit into one of four archetypes, regardless of age.
00:38:21.408 --> 00:38:26.148
So one is, I want to progress and be the CEO. The next is, leave me alone.
00:38:26.148 --> 00:38:27.228
I'm really happy in my job.
00:38:27.488 --> 00:38:30.208
The next is, I want to make some changes.
00:38:30.528 --> 00:38:33.428
Maybe I don't want to work full time anymore. And then the other one is,
00:38:33.568 --> 00:38:38.368
I actually want to change. I don't like my job anymore. I want to do something different.
00:38:38.848 --> 00:38:42.008
And I think if you sit down and you say, which of these four boxes do you fit into?
00:38:42.788 --> 00:38:46.008
That applies to someone who's 28. It applies to someone who's 64.
00:38:46.708 --> 00:38:51.588
But then acting off the back of it, you know, someone who's 68 could still be wanting to be the CEO.
00:38:52.248 --> 00:38:55.448
Maybe that's totally unrealistic, at which point somebody might need to turn
00:38:55.448 --> 00:38:57.108
around and go, it's never going to happen.
00:38:57.628 --> 00:39:00.988
What are you going to do instead? How can we do something that is going to be
00:39:00.988 --> 00:39:06.568
likewise for the person who is, I want to do something that's entirely different.
00:39:07.288 --> 00:39:10.688
Again, that could be any age. Well, what is it you want to do?
00:39:10.988 --> 00:39:13.228
Well, maybe I want to move into HR.
00:39:13.568 --> 00:39:17.228
Maybe I want to work in corporate social responsibility. Maybe I want to go
00:39:17.228 --> 00:39:18.508
work on the dealing room floor.
00:39:19.028 --> 00:39:22.228
You know, maybe I want to go and do, right, okay, well, who can we introduce
00:39:22.228 --> 00:39:23.448
you to in the organization?
00:39:23.668 --> 00:39:28.428
How can we get you shadowing, doing some work experience, working on some projects?
00:39:28.708 --> 00:39:32.688
None of that is predicated on anyone's age, but it just doesn't seem,
00:39:32.908 --> 00:39:34.728
it doesn't seem to happen.
00:39:35.308 --> 00:39:39.608
You know, there are career conversations that are really quite assumptive.
00:39:40.708 --> 00:39:45.948
What's your next step on the progression of the career upwards, upwards, upwards?
00:39:46.828 --> 00:39:52.028
The assumption needs to be much more, which are the four quadrants?
00:39:52.108 --> 00:39:55.008
Because some people may want to move down. Some people want to change entirely.
00:39:55.828 --> 00:39:58.188
There's only one quarter of people who want to keep going up.
00:39:58.981 --> 00:40:03.541
When I hear you talking, when I think about what it means to be a human person
00:40:03.541 --> 00:40:05.601
at work, I hear being seen.
00:40:06.281 --> 00:40:10.021
Somebody is interested in me. Somebody sees me, and they're asking these questions,
00:40:10.281 --> 00:40:11.981
helping me to think about it.
00:40:12.321 --> 00:40:15.721
Because when we are buried in the busyness of work, and then not only do we
00:40:15.721 --> 00:40:19.201
have work, but we have our lives, and depending on what's going on in our lives
00:40:19.201 --> 00:40:23.361
and our health or the people around us and families and hobbies and all these
00:40:23.361 --> 00:40:26.761
other sorts of things, sometimes we're not thinking about that.
00:40:26.761 --> 00:40:32.241
But for someone to stop and be curious about us at work you know we think about
00:40:32.241 --> 00:40:37.301
engagement and buy-in and being seen and all these things that help make a healthy work environment.
00:40:37.961 --> 00:40:43.641
That is so powerful for someone to stop and do that but i as you said before
00:40:43.641 --> 00:40:48.261
those sorts of things don't happen by accident right there's the the one in
00:40:48.261 --> 00:40:51.841
the 20 or one in the 100 who's just going to be doing that because that's a
00:40:51.841 --> 00:40:55.401
part of who they are and their personality and they're going to be searching out those options.
00:40:55.661 --> 00:40:58.861
But, you know, if we think about our people,
00:40:59.201 --> 00:41:03.101
the people in the organizations as the heartbeat, as the lifeblood,
00:41:03.201 --> 00:41:06.581
as people who are valuable because
00:41:06.581 --> 00:41:11.821
they're people, how do we really reach in and get the best of them?
00:41:12.081 --> 00:41:16.661
Well, that's by dialogue, by engagement, by curious questions.
00:41:16.661 --> 00:41:22.361
And the more we set that tone, that we ask questions here And we want you to
00:41:22.361 --> 00:41:26.521
be thinking about these we want you to advocate for yourself But it's this back
00:41:26.521 --> 00:41:27.681
and forth sort of dialogue.
00:41:27.961 --> 00:41:33.021
However long you're here There's a good chance you're going to get more of that person to show up.
00:41:33.161 --> 00:41:36.981
You're going to get more engagement and There's there's a good chance that person
00:41:36.981 --> 00:41:43.341
will be here longer because they are thinking about What quadrant am I in right now?
00:41:43.881 --> 00:41:47.781
Right because that might shift Yeah, what what is it that I want to do?
00:41:47.881 --> 00:41:51.901
How can I contribute instead of this, you know mass quiet quitting that we have.
00:41:52.221 --> 00:41:56.841
And that happens for a lot of reasons, such as the narrative, you don't care about me,
00:41:57.406 --> 00:42:01.126
Well, I'm not going to care about you. Right. And so we shoot each other in
00:42:01.126 --> 00:42:04.966
the foot because that's not good for anybody. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:05.646 --> 00:42:11.886
It's odd, isn't it? Because I do think that we, this idea of something like
00:42:11.886 --> 00:42:14.166
a chief careers officer,
00:42:14.686 --> 00:42:19.026
right, we've got a human resources officer, we've got someone who deals with
00:42:19.026 --> 00:42:24.026
compliance, right, somebody deals with anti-money laundering and I don't know what.
00:42:24.026 --> 00:42:28.106
But actually, of all of the things that we should be doing for individuals and organisation.
00:42:29.139 --> 00:42:32.519
A careers officer makes a huge amount of sense, right?
00:42:32.899 --> 00:42:38.939
Because you were saying earlier that a manager may not have the best interests
00:42:38.939 --> 00:42:40.779
of their employees at heart.
00:42:41.279 --> 00:42:44.959
And that's absolutely right. You know, if I've got my team rocking and rolling
00:42:44.959 --> 00:42:49.079
and I really like Jenny and I really like Richard and they're doing a great
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:54.459
job and I don't want them to leave because they're doing a great job for my team, right?
00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:57.379
If they're pulling in the sales, I don't want them to go work for my competitor
00:42:57.379 --> 00:42:58.879
and the other part of the organization.
00:42:59.659 --> 00:43:03.059
But that's because i'm being selfish you know i'm not so
00:43:03.059 --> 00:43:05.799
actually the ideal person to do this for people
00:43:05.799 --> 00:43:09.239
is not their manager it's someone who is part
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:12.379
of the organization that's looking at this through the the lens
00:43:12.379 --> 00:43:15.339
of what is the best thing for the
00:43:15.339 --> 00:43:18.219
organization to keep this individual and if that means that
00:43:18.219 --> 00:43:20.979
they move to another department that's fine it's still
00:43:20.979 --> 00:43:24.599
a win for the company but it can't come usually
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:27.379
it can't come from that manager you get some that are
00:43:27.379 --> 00:43:30.239
just amazing but i would say the majority of
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:33.099
the time it would have to have a sort of a more
00:43:33.099 --> 00:43:36.699
conscious mechanism in place because you just can't rely on everyone
00:43:36.699 --> 00:43:41.639
having these amazing management skills you know and it's i think most people
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:45.439
know what they want in themselves because this is the other thing right you
00:43:45.439 --> 00:43:49.159
know because people given half a chance if they get to experience something
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:52.639
they'll know quite quickly oh god that's more cold calling than i'd like oh
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:54.239
god that department is really quiet.
00:43:54.539 --> 00:43:57.859
You know, oh, it hasn't got a window in there. I definitely don't want to be there.
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:01.919
We don't know what all of the different factors are that drive meaning for each
00:44:01.919 --> 00:44:02.939
individual, but they do.
00:44:03.707 --> 00:44:07.847
So giving them more of a chance to actually experience, feel,
00:44:08.227 --> 00:44:12.487
you know, it gets, I mean, I had one, I had one great example of somebody who
00:44:12.487 --> 00:44:16.107
thought he wanted to go and become a bed and breakfast,
00:44:16.467 --> 00:44:21.867
you know, like a little boutique hotel owner, but he'd been a CEO of his own
00:44:21.867 --> 00:44:23.267
kind of psychometric testing business.
00:44:23.887 --> 00:44:27.727
And I'm like, you think you want to do that job? Just go and spend two days,
00:44:27.887 --> 00:44:29.827
go and spend two days doing that job.
00:44:29.967 --> 00:44:33.347
And I lined it up for him. I found a hotel that was willing to let him do it.
00:44:33.707 --> 00:44:38.707
He comes away from those two days going, thank God. He was about to invest his life savings.
00:44:39.307 --> 00:44:42.347
And he was like, thank God I don't do that job. Because actually,
00:44:42.347 --> 00:44:46.207
the thing that turned him off was the way that people spoke to him.
00:44:46.607 --> 00:44:50.307
He was used to a certain status. He was used to being the CEO.
00:44:50.827 --> 00:44:54.687
And then all of a sudden, you're waiting on tables and people are going,
00:44:55.207 --> 00:44:57.527
oi, mate, I asked for my bill five minutes ago.
00:44:58.427 --> 00:45:02.027
It was like, actually, I don't want to deal with customers like that.
00:45:02.027 --> 00:45:05.827
I want to deal with a customer that's coming to me with a really highly complex
00:45:05.827 --> 00:45:09.407
problem where I can get really excited about developing a solution.
00:45:09.727 --> 00:45:12.887
So it just wasn't right for him. But you know, we've all had those holidays
00:45:12.887 --> 00:45:14.507
where things seem really idealistic.
00:45:14.607 --> 00:45:17.727
Like, oh my gosh, like this is, I want to move here.
00:45:17.907 --> 00:45:20.807
I want to buy this boutique business. I'm going to set up a pottery,
00:45:21.107 --> 00:45:24.567
a gallery, and it's going to be great. It's going to be really boring.
00:45:26.237 --> 00:45:29.797
It's such a it's a great example because i also think when
00:45:29.797 --> 00:45:32.417
somebody might be dissatisfied because you know
00:45:32.417 --> 00:45:35.437
the grass is greener syndrome well then i go look and see what somebody's
00:45:35.437 --> 00:45:38.577
doing on the other side of the hall or on a different floor and i'm like oh
00:45:38.577 --> 00:45:45.197
no actually i do have a good i you know and so sometimes we just can re-romanticize
00:45:45.197 --> 00:45:49.317
the idea you know we just see the good hearts we don't see every job has its
00:45:49.317 --> 00:45:53.197
words every job has and that's a part of being a grown-up and being in the world
00:45:53.197 --> 00:45:55.157
is there are parts of the jobs that we don't like to do.
00:45:55.597 --> 00:45:58.757
Before we spoke this morning, I had been putting a few things off and I made
00:45:58.757 --> 00:46:02.997
a list and they'd been on my mind. These are things I don't like.
00:46:03.577 --> 00:46:06.997
And then I did them and I'm like, oh gosh, that didn't take much time.
00:46:07.097 --> 00:46:09.557
But you know, that's, that is the way of things.
00:46:09.757 --> 00:46:14.017
So every, every job, everything has that. But the question is,
00:46:14.077 --> 00:46:15.537
is that something that you want to deal with?
00:46:16.097 --> 00:46:19.737
And as you see what the, those parts are of another job?
00:46:19.837 --> 00:46:24.597
Does it make your job more endearing, more grateful? You could just see it in a down kind of way.
00:46:25.417 --> 00:46:30.577
Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's why would we deny people the chance to make
00:46:30.577 --> 00:46:31.717
those chances for themselves?
00:46:31.977 --> 00:46:35.917
You know, why try and assume, you know, because of course the other thing is
00:46:35.917 --> 00:46:37.977
aging workforce and so on.
00:46:38.217 --> 00:46:40.957
We don't always know the people's financial position, right?
00:46:41.117 --> 00:46:43.697
Some people might just be about to inherit a buttload.
00:46:44.117 --> 00:46:48.257
You know, other people have a spouse who's doing really well,
00:46:48.317 --> 00:46:51.237
or maybe the opposite, who are really struggling.
00:46:51.537 --> 00:46:54.717
And all of these contextual factors also feed in.
00:46:54.877 --> 00:46:59.397
There's no way a manager can know that. We assume that over the next few years,
00:46:59.537 --> 00:47:01.417
you want to keep going, no, don't make assumptions.
00:47:01.717 --> 00:47:07.297
People know for themselves, but we're just not always that effective at asking the questions.
00:47:08.263 --> 00:47:12.703
So I'm very interested in conflict and dealing with conflict at work so that
00:47:12.703 --> 00:47:14.223
we can have healthy work environments.
00:47:14.383 --> 00:47:19.583
Is there anything that you have been seeing from the work that you do about
00:47:19.583 --> 00:47:25.443
how people in midlife or towards the end of their career, how they deal with conflict?
00:47:25.503 --> 00:47:30.563
Or does it seem to be the same no matter what age you are when you show up at work?
00:47:31.103 --> 00:47:35.103
I mean, I think things are probably getting much, much worse.
00:47:36.343 --> 00:47:40.163
As in you know this is
00:47:40.163 --> 00:47:43.583
probably where I'm going to come across as being very politically incorrect
00:47:43.583 --> 00:47:46.943
right but you know back in the day if
00:47:46.943 --> 00:47:50.143
you offended somebody or if you upset someone
00:47:50.143 --> 00:47:53.003
then I'm hoping they
00:47:53.003 --> 00:47:55.743
would turn around and go you were a bit of an
00:47:55.743 --> 00:48:01.063
arse yesterday and I didn't like it I didn't appreciate it oh sorry what have
00:48:01.063 --> 00:48:06.143
you I think we're now in a culture where people are so terrified of being cancelled
00:48:06.143 --> 00:48:11.763
or they're so terrified of being accused of being racist or being a misogynist
00:48:11.763 --> 00:48:14.783
or being ageist or whatever it might be,
00:48:15.043 --> 00:48:18.183
that actually everyone is walking on eggshells all the time.
00:48:18.503 --> 00:48:20.903
And the minute that somebody is offended, they go, I'm offended.
00:48:21.003 --> 00:48:22.083
And everyone's like, oh my God, oh my God.
00:48:22.923 --> 00:48:27.103
We've got to a point now where the fingers are firmly in the ears.
00:48:27.223 --> 00:48:31.763
And instead of sort of going, okay, I upset you. I'm sorry, why is that a big deal?
00:48:32.383 --> 00:48:35.783
Why why can't we just deal with this as adults we've now
00:48:35.783 --> 00:48:39.923
got people that will go no no I will not hear what it is that you're saying
00:48:39.923 --> 00:48:44.623
or what you've said is so bad I now have to go and complain about it to somebody
00:48:44.623 --> 00:48:51.643
else and that I think creates a much worse culture for people to deal with than
00:48:51.643 --> 00:48:55.743
actually the original irritation that they would have had in the first place.
00:48:56.911 --> 00:49:02.151
I think we've lost the ability to be more sympathetic, to be more tolerant.
00:49:02.711 --> 00:49:05.051
You know, we've become much more accusatory.
00:49:05.871 --> 00:49:10.891
We've become much more of a kind of a blame culture. And I think that's deeply,
00:49:11.131 --> 00:49:13.671
deeply bad for psychological safety.
00:49:13.931 --> 00:49:19.251
You know, I have lots of, you know, men, women, you name it,
00:49:19.411 --> 00:49:23.051
who will not articulate and won't voice their anxiety.
00:49:23.051 --> 00:49:25.731
They won't talk about what it is that they're worried about.
00:49:25.731 --> 00:49:30.391
If somebody is a real poor performer at work, they won't say it because they'll
00:49:30.391 --> 00:49:33.131
be accused of things that are completely untrue.
00:49:33.471 --> 00:49:35.331
No, I'm just worried about your performance.
00:49:35.751 --> 00:49:39.531
But maybe the race card will get pulled. Maybe the gender card will be pulled.
00:49:39.771 --> 00:49:43.971
Maybe the age card will be pulled. And it's just become a bit too much like that.
00:49:44.651 --> 00:49:54.711
Do you have any advice about how to reverse this or what to do when faced with this environment?
00:49:55.731 --> 00:50:03.051
I mean, I would love to see more advocacy for personal accountability and freedom of speech.
00:50:03.691 --> 00:50:09.371
I mean, I don't think anyone has, everyone I think has the right to say things,
00:50:09.451 --> 00:50:12.431
but they also have the right to be judged for it.
00:50:12.591 --> 00:50:18.131
And I think we're so scared about allowing people to be judged that we just
00:50:18.131 --> 00:50:21.051
put down all these guardrails all the time. You can't even say this.
00:50:21.171 --> 00:50:25.451
If you say this, we're worried you will offend somebody. So we're not even going
00:50:25.451 --> 00:50:27.011
to give you the platform anymore.
00:50:27.671 --> 00:50:34.511
Whereas actually, you know, give them the platform. If their ideas are stupid,
00:50:34.531 --> 00:50:39.931
if they can't back them up, if they fall under the tiniest bit of scrutiny, let them fall.
00:50:40.564 --> 00:50:44.704
But we have to have the debate in the first place and actually the enabling
00:50:44.704 --> 00:50:50.864
of the debate, the coming back to somebody and saying, it's not going to work
00:50:50.864 --> 00:50:52.504
for this reason and this reason.
00:50:52.864 --> 00:50:56.844
Or what would you say to this perspective over here, which your point doesn't address?
00:50:57.384 --> 00:51:01.744
Actually allowing that to happen in the first place, I think puts us in a stronger
00:51:01.744 --> 00:51:04.624
position than we're just not even going to talk to you anymore.
00:51:04.624 --> 00:51:09.704
Or this is the position, you know, too much politics has entered the workplace
00:51:09.704 --> 00:51:11.684
where it just has no place.
00:51:12.084 --> 00:51:15.184
You know, half of it is all because of this, you know, bring your authentic
00:51:15.184 --> 00:51:17.864
self to work and all of that. No, don't.
00:51:18.204 --> 00:51:22.384
You know, some of your authentic self is actually you're a bit of an idiot.
00:51:22.864 --> 00:51:26.344
You know, there are sort of organizational standards for a reason,
00:51:26.344 --> 00:51:31.244
because actually we don't want people behaving rudely, badly, whatever.
00:51:31.244 --> 00:51:34.624
So it's uh
00:51:34.624 --> 00:51:37.584
yeah i think we've become we've
00:51:37.584 --> 00:51:40.624
introduced a level of politics into organizations that makes
00:51:40.624 --> 00:51:43.824
them deeply deeply deeply harder to
00:51:43.824 --> 00:51:48.344
be productive because instead of just getting on with the job we've got to worry
00:51:48.344 --> 00:51:53.304
so much about everyone's feelings all the time yeah i mean i think i would say
00:51:53.304 --> 00:51:57.184
part of the answer is going back to dialogue having genuine dialogue but A principle
00:51:57.184 --> 00:52:01.084
of having genuine dialogue is the principle of charity, right?
00:52:01.144 --> 00:52:07.224
And the principle of charity is that I assume the good of you instead of assuming something nefarious.
00:52:07.484 --> 00:52:12.724
Was, yeah. Right. And so if you say something that I think is misogynistic or
00:52:12.724 --> 00:52:17.424
racist or homophobic or ageist, whatever I want to, you know,
00:52:17.524 --> 00:52:20.784
whatever I think, the principle of charity assumes the good of you.
00:52:20.884 --> 00:52:24.764
And so I can say, I heard you say this. Is this what you meant?
00:52:25.384 --> 00:52:30.744
And the person most likely, because the vast majority of people who show up
00:52:30.744 --> 00:52:34.984
to work, the vast majority of people don't intend harm, right?
00:52:35.084 --> 00:52:37.924
I mean, of course there are outliers, okay, but then we can have a conversation and get to that.
00:52:38.493 --> 00:52:41.513
But did you intend this? This is how it's coming across.
00:52:41.813 --> 00:52:45.173
And then somebody can say, oh, no, I meant this.
00:52:45.373 --> 00:52:50.093
Okay. And then we can go on that route. And so right then, we're able to have this discussion.
00:52:50.313 --> 00:52:57.353
But if I don't have that base level of charity with you, if I'm already assuming the opposite of that,
00:52:57.573 --> 00:53:02.093
that you are out to get me or that you are to be minimized because of your age,
00:53:02.173 --> 00:53:04.713
because you're young and you know nothing or because you're old and you know
00:53:04.713 --> 00:53:06.953
nothing or whatever, we want to fill in the blank.
00:53:06.953 --> 00:53:11.273
I already have this assumption about you, then whatever I hear from you is already
00:53:11.273 --> 00:53:14.753
tainted because I'm on the defensive, because you're trying to get me,
00:53:14.933 --> 00:53:18.633
because you're, instead of, we're all in it together. We're all trying to accomplish
00:53:18.633 --> 00:53:21.393
at work this mission. Okay, what is it we're trying to accomplish?
00:53:21.673 --> 00:53:26.153
And so you said this, we have to work together as a team. So what did you mean?
00:53:26.433 --> 00:53:32.973
Maybe you don't, maybe I heard a sexist comment, but I heard it and it wasn't there.
00:53:33.333 --> 00:53:36.053
And so the principle of charity also works for me.
00:53:36.053 --> 00:53:39.173
I'm trying to we're trying to have our same expectations
00:53:39.173 --> 00:53:42.393
together so you having
00:53:42.393 --> 00:53:45.113
the grace to hear what I'm hearing so that we
00:53:45.113 --> 00:53:47.773
can actually communicate and so it
00:53:47.773 --> 00:53:51.433
works both ways being able to constantly make
00:53:51.433 --> 00:53:54.693
sure that we're on the same page but that takes dialogue especially
00:53:54.693 --> 00:53:57.433
because we have all these different life circumstances and we
00:53:57.433 --> 00:54:00.793
come at work and a problem in a variety ways which
00:54:00.793 --> 00:54:07.293
that diversity is so golden if we use it instead of using it to distance ourselves
00:54:07.293 --> 00:54:13.733
yeah and you know we all we all have that i'm not going to say her name but
00:54:13.733 --> 00:54:17.693
we all have the friend don't we who is you know.
00:54:18.679 --> 00:54:21.579
The person who exaggerates everything or sees
00:54:21.579 --> 00:54:24.439
darkness where there is none so you know she'll quite
00:54:24.439 --> 00:54:27.759
often sort of say to me you know lucy you wouldn't believe what
00:54:27.759 --> 00:54:30.519
this guy said to me on the bus and then she'll say
00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:36.699
the comment and then she'll say wasn't that so racist and i'm like no i don't
00:54:36.699 --> 00:54:40.419
think that was racist at all i think someone asking you where you're from is
00:54:40.419 --> 00:54:45.039
actually just curious but she sees it through a different lens so the dialogue
00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:48.279
between us means that I might turn around to her and go, no,
00:54:48.619 --> 00:54:51.599
I think you're not, I think you're seeing something that's not there because
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:56.719
you're looking at, you're so expecting to hear what you're wanting to hear in
00:54:56.719 --> 00:54:58.779
a way that that's what you see.
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:02.439
But that's exactly as you say, it's not always what people mean.
00:55:03.079 --> 00:55:09.759
And, you know, having the, having other people around who can say,
00:55:10.059 --> 00:55:12.139
you know what, I don't think that was meant badly.
00:55:12.339 --> 00:55:16.159
I think you can just chill a little bit because actually if you make complaints
00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:20.399
about this and if you stress about it all the time, you're just going to upset them.
00:55:21.308 --> 00:55:23.828
But you're also, what are you actually achieving for yourself?
00:55:24.188 --> 00:55:27.848
You know, how could you see this through a slightly more generous perspective?
00:55:28.168 --> 00:55:33.348
Or if it does really upset you, okay, but how can you have a conversation that's not so antagonistic?
00:55:33.608 --> 00:55:40.108
Hey, you said this, you know, and I'm really offended by it versus I preferred
00:55:40.108 --> 00:55:41.428
it if you would call me like this.
00:55:41.548 --> 00:55:44.228
Or if you, if you, when you use my name, could you do it in this way?
00:55:44.468 --> 00:55:47.028
Or I was a bit upset when you said it the other day.
00:55:47.308 --> 00:55:51.048
Would you, would you mind if actually you said it in a, that that is a kind
00:55:51.048 --> 00:55:54.788
of a spirit, as you say, of generosity, as opposed to now, what I think a lot
00:55:54.788 --> 00:55:58.408
of people do is not even say anything, but they'll go behind someone's back.
00:55:58.568 --> 00:56:01.248
They'll go to complain to somebody in HR, then somebody in HR,
00:56:01.328 --> 00:56:05.048
and then that person feels a complaint's been made about you.
00:56:05.408 --> 00:56:08.148
Now they feel they can't say anything. Now they feel they have to leave.
00:56:08.288 --> 00:56:11.828
And then what do everyone else observe? They observe a culture of no dialogue.
00:56:12.088 --> 00:56:16.328
Now they observe a culture of, if you say something wrong, somebody else is
00:56:16.328 --> 00:56:20.288
going to go and complain about you and you probably won't even get the chance to justify yourself.
00:56:20.968 --> 00:56:28.448
And that is just, it's awful. You know, it's so not an improvement on where we were.
00:56:30.032 --> 00:56:35.212
What you said, I really thought really struck me of this idea of what's next. So I've been offended.
00:56:35.452 --> 00:56:38.152
Sometimes I get offended. People mean it. They don't mean it. Okay.
00:56:38.432 --> 00:56:41.592
The question is, what am I going to do next? And if we think about building
00:56:41.592 --> 00:56:45.292
resilience, resilience doesn't mean I'm never going to come up with against hardship, right?
00:56:45.292 --> 00:56:48.932
I'm never going to build resilience if I don't find things difficult. so
00:56:48.932 --> 00:56:52.252
this thing was said to me or done to me and it
00:56:52.252 --> 00:56:55.252
was harmful impactful then the
00:56:55.252 --> 00:56:58.112
question is what's next what do i want to have
00:56:58.112 --> 00:57:01.412
next what do i want in my relationship with this person what do i want at this
00:57:01.412 --> 00:57:05.952
organization and how am i going to bring that about right so this idea of personal
00:57:05.952 --> 00:57:10.852
empowerment instead of i need to tattle now we're not talking about illegal
00:57:10.852 --> 00:57:13.632
behaviors right there are illegal egregious behaviors but we're talking about
00:57:13.632 --> 00:57:16.032
the normal difficult things that happen at work.
00:57:16.332 --> 00:57:19.932
Normally, difficult things happen because we're dealing with other humans and ourselves, right?
00:57:20.472 --> 00:57:24.732
And so what do I want to do next? If I go tell my boss or HR,
00:57:25.012 --> 00:57:27.892
I mean, how would I feel if someone did that to me?
00:57:28.472 --> 00:57:32.332
Because most people, they have what they intend to do, right?
00:57:32.392 --> 00:57:34.092
We talk about intent versus impact.
00:57:34.272 --> 00:57:40.092
But if I'm impacted, that's still, I'm impacted that way so I can choose what I want to do next.
00:57:40.392 --> 00:57:44.692
And just because I was impacted that way doesn't mean the other person actually
00:57:44.692 --> 00:57:49.532
did something wrong because i might be taking it in a certain way i might not
00:57:49.532 --> 00:57:53.412
it's all very specific it's all about the individuals the relationship and the
00:57:53.412 --> 00:57:55.912
structure but having those conversations.
00:57:56.512 --> 00:58:02.472
Helps me grow as a professional as a person helps you helps the organizations
00:58:02.472 --> 00:58:05.872
and in the absence we're still having conversations but now it's usually toxic
00:58:05.872 --> 00:58:10.892
gossip and we are silencing people so who are we talking to we're not talking
00:58:10.892 --> 00:58:12.952
about the problem we're talking around it and to others,
00:58:13.656 --> 00:58:18.336
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Lucy, this time has really gotten away from us.
00:58:18.416 --> 00:58:21.196
So I do want to mention your brand new book, Congratulations,
00:58:21.496 --> 00:58:25.096
that you have co-authored that has just come out called Age Against the Machine.
00:58:25.416 --> 00:58:30.196
I just ordered my copy today. I'm very, can't wait to read it. Thank you. Thank you.
00:58:30.736 --> 00:58:34.076
So, but I do have this last question for you. When you look into the future
00:58:34.076 --> 00:58:36.276
of work and you think about your kids out into the workforce,
00:58:36.576 --> 00:58:40.736
what do you think needs to happen so that not only will all people be treated
00:58:40.736 --> 00:58:44.956
with dignity and respect, but that they'll be encouraged to thrive and flourish.
00:58:45.716 --> 00:58:49.056
Well, I don't have the power of a magic wand to make everything happen,
00:58:49.076 --> 00:58:59.916
but I do wish for there to be some form of breaks or questioning around the use of so much AI.
00:59:00.536 --> 00:59:07.356
If I liken it to all of the stuff that Jonathan Haidt is sort of finding now
00:59:07.356 --> 00:59:09.236
and all of the research that's coming out,
00:59:09.236 --> 00:59:12.176
you know all of these tech bros were coming out with
00:59:12.176 --> 00:59:15.716
social media that we didn't want or need really and has
00:59:15.716 --> 00:59:19.176
had an absolutely detrimental effect on children's
00:59:19.176 --> 00:59:22.096
livelihoods and life satisfaction and skills and
00:59:22.096 --> 00:59:24.996
ability to build relationships and so on and so forth and mental
00:59:24.996 --> 00:59:29.416
health but we just went headlong into it you know we've exposed everyone to
00:59:29.416 --> 00:59:34.496
it without any real understanding of consequences and yes i do think ai is a
00:59:34.496 --> 00:59:38.856
force for good right there is no question if it can come to spotting things
00:59:38.856 --> 00:59:42.776
like breast tumors in cancer earlier at an earlier point.
00:59:43.216 --> 00:59:48.936
Nobody is going to dispute that. But when it comes to the scale and the pace
00:59:48.936 --> 00:59:54.116
of livelihood impact, the scale and the pace of people's sense of meaning and
00:59:54.116 --> 00:59:57.736
purpose, you know, humans have not evolved for a life of leisure.
00:59:58.434 --> 01:00:02.774
And everyone's sort of going, oh, this is great. People will have universal basic income.
01:00:02.914 --> 01:00:06.534
We'll get all the robots to do the jobs. And you go, yeah, but at no point in
01:00:06.534 --> 01:00:11.914
human history have we just sat on our arses all day and had other people do jobs for us.
01:00:11.914 --> 01:00:15.854
Part of the reward in life and the sense of achievement, a sense of pride,
01:00:16.054 --> 01:00:21.034
is a direct function to the struggle and the hardship.
01:00:21.314 --> 01:00:23.314
This is what you were saying a bit with the resilience.
01:00:23.594 --> 01:00:27.654
So who's asking us, do we want these changes to happen?
01:00:27.814 --> 01:00:31.354
We vote for different people to have power positions in government because in
01:00:31.354 --> 01:00:34.654
theory, these politicians have some sort of an impact over our lives.
01:00:34.814 --> 01:00:40.874
As far as I can see, the politicians have zero impact. The AI tech leaders seem
01:00:40.874 --> 01:00:44.834
to have a disproportionate impact on people's livelihoods at this point.
01:00:45.154 --> 01:00:51.074
So that just feels like something that I want to say, but I have no answer and I have no solution to it.
01:00:52.115 --> 01:00:58.655
In terms of what can people do to prepare themselves, I would say prepare yourself
01:00:58.655 --> 01:01:00.315
for a life of constant change.
01:01:00.555 --> 01:01:03.375
So the world of the full-time job is gone.
01:01:03.615 --> 01:01:09.855
So not only should we be asking kids, what five or six different things do you want to be doing?
01:01:10.015 --> 01:01:14.355
It's probably going to be a case of not even considering that from a sequential,
01:01:14.635 --> 01:01:17.375
go from one job to another, to another.
01:01:17.615 --> 01:01:20.615
It's probably going to be multi-layered, right?
01:01:20.875 --> 01:01:23.715
So I met someone recently.
01:01:24.215 --> 01:01:30.315
I don't know if it's true, but he claimed he had income from 17 different sources.
01:01:30.455 --> 01:01:34.235
So he had three jobs, two that he did one day a week fractionally,
01:01:34.415 --> 01:01:37.975
and then another part-time job that he did two days a week.
01:01:38.135 --> 01:01:42.595
He then did consulting. He then also rented out one of his rooms.
01:01:42.675 --> 01:01:44.815
He did some tutoring a bit on the side.
01:01:45.055 --> 01:01:50.455
I think maybe he had a couple of dogs. So he also would take money for dog sitting
01:01:50.455 --> 01:01:52.175
somebody else's dog every now and again.
01:01:52.335 --> 01:01:55.415
I don't even know. Maybe he had an online course as well somewhere.
01:01:55.655 --> 01:01:59.715
And maybe there were some ads that came in via YouTube videos or something.
01:02:00.155 --> 01:02:04.675
But the long and short of it is, is that if he's true, even if he's not true.
01:02:05.335 --> 01:02:10.435
It is incredibly common for me to see people at the end of a year doing at least
01:02:10.435 --> 01:02:14.855
two or three different bits of work that give them income from different sources.
01:02:15.275 --> 01:02:22.055
And I would say that having that, that is probably the strongest position you could be in.
01:02:22.515 --> 01:02:26.315
You know, the people who have always worked five days a week for one employer,
01:02:26.515 --> 01:02:29.235
and that employer is not necessarily thinking about your career.
01:02:29.495 --> 01:02:32.275
They're thinking about their business performance and their job and so on and
01:02:32.275 --> 01:02:34.715
so forth. So the individuals haven't been thinking about it.
01:02:35.175 --> 01:02:38.895
I'd say those are the people who are the most vulnerable. Because whether it's
01:02:38.895 --> 01:02:42.035
a comfortable position, having to catch and kill your next meal,
01:02:42.135 --> 01:02:45.955
your next meal, your next meal, you are at the very least being constantly forced
01:02:45.955 --> 01:02:48.495
to consider, how do I stay relevant?
01:02:48.695 --> 01:02:50.995
The conversations that I'm having, they're buying or they're not buying?
01:02:51.095 --> 01:02:52.755
Why are they not buying? That.
01:02:53.303 --> 01:03:00.063
As a kind of an armor to wear to help inform you as to what it is you need to
01:03:00.063 --> 01:03:02.883
learn, what it is you need to kind of skid yourself up in.
01:03:03.143 --> 01:03:08.803
As uncomfortable as it is, it's probably the most secure position you can be in.
01:03:09.103 --> 01:03:13.723
Because then if one card falls, you've got something else that you're looking at.
01:03:13.883 --> 01:03:16.523
And I just, I think it's probably going to
01:03:16.523 --> 01:03:19.523
be increasingly the way of work
01:03:19.523 --> 01:03:22.603
going forwards you know we already see organizations like PayPal
01:03:22.603 --> 01:03:25.703
and Google they have more freelancers than they do have people full-time
01:03:25.703 --> 01:03:28.443
and you know the more that things change the
01:03:28.443 --> 01:03:31.343
more that things change so you know and it's probably
01:03:31.343 --> 01:03:34.523
people in our sorts of you know people embrace
01:03:34.523 --> 01:03:38.143
that kind of cohort we've got this aging cohort I don't know anyone who wants
01:03:38.143 --> 01:03:41.883
to work in a job full-time five days a week they want more curiosity they want
01:03:41.883 --> 01:03:45.823
to learn more things they want more space in their life just for life and now
01:03:45.823 --> 01:03:49.123
that they're dictating more of those terms you can And you'd better believe
01:03:49.123 --> 01:03:51.743
that's going to start feeding its way back down through the chain.
01:03:51.903 --> 01:03:55.423
And then organizations now are going, well, why should I pay someone five days
01:03:55.423 --> 01:03:58.803
a week if I can just pay someone two days a week? This is great.
01:03:59.003 --> 01:04:02.143
And so I can just see that that's going to keep on spiraling.
01:04:02.663 --> 01:04:07.803
So younger people today, I think, have to be really cognizant of how the world
01:04:07.803 --> 01:04:11.103
of work is changing and how that means that they will have to adapt.
01:04:12.244 --> 01:04:16.064
What a wonderful answer. Lucy, thank you so much, and congratulations on your
01:04:16.064 --> 01:04:18.424
new book, and thank you for your time today.
01:04:19.164 --> 01:04:22.124
Thank you very much, Mary. I appreciate it. Take care.
01:04:22.584 --> 01:04:27.084
Thank you, Lucy, so much for a fun conversation about really important issues,
01:04:27.804 --> 01:04:33.044
and dear listener, I encourage you, if you are mid-career or wherever you may
01:04:33.044 --> 01:04:37.004
be and you're interested in career development, to check out Brave Starts.
01:04:37.384 --> 01:04:42.144
And then also her new book, Age Against the Machine looks really interesting
01:04:42.144 --> 01:04:47.664
about how we deal with the workforce that we have and where we might be and
01:04:47.664 --> 01:04:52.444
how to really make it so that everybody can flourish throughout their career.
01:04:53.204 --> 01:04:56.524
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services
01:04:56.524 --> 01:05:00.824
and hosted by me, Merry Brown. You can find us online at 3pconflictrestoration.com.
01:05:01.064 --> 01:05:03.324
Come back, we have new episodes every Tuesday.
01:05:03.624 --> 01:05:07.344
And if you haven't checked out my latest book called Winning the generation
01:05:07.344 --> 01:05:11.764
wars at work, making your age an asset, it is available on Amazon.
01:05:12.164 --> 01:05:14.704
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot.
01:05:15.124 --> 01:05:18.504
And remember, conflict is normal and expected. Let's deal with it.
01:05:18.704 --> 01:05:20.024
Until next time, take care.