WEBVTT
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Almost immediately, what I observed were protests and agitation against Israel, against the victim.
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And that, of course, just made no sense to me, just on the basis of simple decency.
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And so I spoke to political people I know, and I have lots of friends on the right and on the left in Canada, the United States, and Europe and the Middle East.
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And I said, you know, this looks like a campaign.
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This looks quite organized and quite well done.
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And the response I got from everybody was, absolutely, this is a global propaganda campaign against Jews, the Jewish state, but also Western democracy, and it hasn't relented ever since.
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Today is Wednesday, August 26th.
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This is Boundless Insights, and I'm Aviva Columbus.
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After October 7th, many people assumed that the explosion of anti-Israel activity around the world was a spontaneous grassroots movement.
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But what if one of the most consequential campaigns of our time wasn't fought with soldiers or diplomats, but with influencers, protest movements, and social media?
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My guest today is Warren Kinsella.
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He's one of Canada's best-known political strategists, and for decades, he's designed political campaigns and studied how public opinion is shaped.
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In his new book called The Hidden Hand, The Information War, and the Rise of Anti-Semitic Propaganda, he argues that much of what we've witnessed these past two and a half years was a sophisticated information campaign designed to shape how people understand Israel, Jews, and the conflict.
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Today we're going to go beyond the headlines to examine how narratives are weaponized.
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Let's get into it.
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Warren Kinsello, welcome to Boundless Insights.
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Thanks so much for having me.
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I have a fellow Canadian with me.
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This is nice, and I have a nice non-Jewish journalist political strategist.
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So how does a guy with excellent career credentials come to get caught up in this whole anti-Semitism mess?
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I think it was how my parents raised me and my brothers.
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And my dad was a doc, and I was born in Montreal.
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I was born in a very Jewish neighborhood.
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You know, we had Jewish friends and Jewish colleagues, and it's just our life.
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And we moved around a lot, you know, Texas and Ontario and Quebec and so on, but it was in Alberta I encountered for the first time organized racism.
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I talk about it in the hidden hand.
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Some skinheads, Nazi skinheads came to one of the shows that I put on, and we're making Nazi salutes.
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And you know, we all have moments in our lives when there's this some crystallizing thing.
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And that was the crystallizing moment for me where anti-Semitism had moved, which I didn't ever doubt existed.
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I just hadn't experienced it.
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It moved from the theoretical or the academic to the real.
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It became a preoccupation of mine and has ever since, because regrettably, you know, the problem has just gotten worse.
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And congratulations on your new book, The Hidden Hand.
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I have it right here.
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In the book, you argue that what many people see as a spontaneous grassroots movement in response to October 7th was at least in part a sophisticated political campaign.
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Now you've spent your career designing political campaigns.
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So how is it that you knew it wasn't organic?
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You know, when you work in a political campaign and you know all of us have won some and we've all lost some.
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But you have won more than most.
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I've won a few.
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And the one skill you acquire is how to spot them.
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And you know, what are the emblems, what are the indicators of a campaign?
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You know, a campaign manager and campaign co-chairs and communications people for mainstream media and for social media and fundraisers and volunteers in the front, you know, the people who do outreach.
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And what I noticed after the seventh, so the seventh, as we all know, but it's important to remind people, was the greatest act, violence against the Jewish people on a single day since the Holocaust, 1200 men, women killed children, babies killed, Israeli women and girls sexually violated, 250 kidnapped, and hundreds who are often forgotten, grievously wounded.
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So this terrible day when Israel was so obviously the victim of Hamas and this evil.
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And almost immediately what I observed were protests and agitation against Israel, against the victim.
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And that, of course, just made no sense to me, just on the basis of simple decency.
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And so I spoke to political people I know, and I have lots of friends on the right and on the left in Canada, the United States, and Europe and the Middle East.
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And I said, you know, this looks like a campaign.
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This looks quite organized and quite well done.
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And the response I got from everybody was, absolutely, this is a global propaganda campaign against Jews, the Jewish state, but also Western democracy, and hasn't relented ever since.
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You spoke about simple decency, and I think what so many people in the Jewish community have found so unnerving is that we've just watched these claims about Jews or Israel that are truly preposterous and would have once been dismissed as just insane, have become mainstream news.
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So you have the New York Times running a story about Israeli rape dogs.
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You have Mamdani out there pretending he can arrest world leaders if they're Israeli world leaders, you have members of Congress railing against Jewish money, you have the vice president of the United States going on Joe Rogan to just drop the notion that Jeffrey Epstein was an Israeli American spy.
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Why is it that just the normal standards of critical thinking have collapsed when the topic is either Israel or Jews?
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You know, the indicators of anti-Semitism, as we both know, have always existed.
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You've always had Holocaust deniers and Hitler freaks and neo-Nazis.
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They were always there, but they always clustered at the margins of the popular discourse, about debates, about elections.
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You know, one of these assholes would run for public office and they'd come, you know, 15th out of a field of 15.
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And what they discovered around the mid-90s, David Irving and Ernstundl and Forison in France and all these other, mainly Holocaust deniers, was the power of the internet.
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And what it enabled them to do is to communicate their homily of hate globally, instantaneously, with zero cost that had never happened to them before.
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And what's extraordinary, and I talk about this in the book, because I've written about the far right, the neo-Nazi white supremacist far right.
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They learned from their predecessors, the Zundals and so on, how to propagate their message around the world.
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And what they were aided and abetted by was, of course, getting back to my description of a campaign structure.
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The campaign manager here is Iran, the enemy of Israel and the Jewish people.
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The co-chairs here are Russia and China, I would say.
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The banker is Qatar.
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And then here in the West, you've got this alphabet soup of NGOs and charities and nonprofits who are anti-Semitic in nature, who've all come together to create this global propaganda campaign.
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And it has been exceedingly effective in a way that the Holocaust deniers of old could only dream of.
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There's a couple of reasons why I think they've been very successful, and part of it is they've targeted very carefully one specific audience.
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Say more.
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The audience is young people.
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What they have successfully done is persuaded young people, and you know, and you and I have known each other for a while, and you know I'm a big guy.
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So when I see these protests, I just wade right into the middle of them.
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And I'll go up to a kid and say, that sign you're holding, that's anti-Semitic.
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Like that's a horrible, terrible thing that you're saying.
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And these kids will say to you, because they are mainly kids, you know, Gen Z from about 18 to 24, millennials from about 25 to 42, they'll say, Well, no, no, no, I'm not being anti-Semitic.
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I'm being anti-racist.
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That has been the central success of this global propaganda campaign that I write about in the book, which is they have successfully propagated the notion to these young people that Israel is a fascistic, white supremacist, colonialist, apartheid state in the way that South Africa once was.
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And so what they've done is say, well, if you know, if you join us in this effort, you know, you're being an anti-racist, you're not being anti-Semitic.
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And that has been the characteristic of this campaign from the outset.
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And they've been assisted by, you know, an unlimited supply of funds from places like Qatar and some serious organizational chops that, you know, some of us in the West, we kind of arrogantly assume about Hamas, they couldn't organize their way out of a paper bank.
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Militarily, that is so.
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You know, Israel will always prevail, thank God, in battles with Hamas and Hezbollah.
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But on the propaganda front, my friend, Israel is getting its ass kicked because Israel has kind of let go the job of telling its own story.
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And into that void, because communications abhors a void, have stepped these haters and they very successfully captured that one demographic.
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You are pretty tough on Israel and PR that I am going to ask you about it, but every propaganda campaign needs an audience that's willing to receive the message.
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Why is it that you think that these narratives have found such fertile ground in Western democracies?
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With young people in particular, it's been very successful going back because of the pandemic.
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You know, the ADL, for example, for about six years did comprehensive polling that's available publicly, people who can check it out, that found that always people on the right, the left, young, old, east, west, whatever, if you were concerned about anti-Semitism, you were also concerned about racism, right?
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They kind of moved in tandem.
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And around the time of the pandemic, for young people, their preoccupation with racism continued, but their concern about anti-Semitism wasn't like that.
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And so the pandemic was a time when it was terrible for young people.
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They were told their dreams about the future and homeownership and jobs and so on were largely gone.
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They, you know, commencement exercise and proms, all of that stuff was gone.
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It was a crummy time for young people.
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And what guys like me do in campaigns, we look for what we call drivers.
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What is driving public opinion?
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And the driver of public opinion in that time, about five or six years ago, was the internet became a source of conspiracy theories about Jews and the Jewish state.
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And so what you saw, and it's in the data, where young people started to believe in conspiracy theories at that time.
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Their world in its entirety was the internet.
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And so COVID was invented by Jews.
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And it was invented by Jews so that they could profit because they own all the pharmaceutical companies and all of this nonsense, all of this bullshit.
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But it was very effectively done in a way that, you know, the predecessors like Zundal and so on had not.
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And so that's why you started to see this divergence with young people to the point where we have now, when the seventh happened, the bad guys were ready to go.
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It wasn't like something magically happened on the morning of the seventh, you know, this terrible day in the history of humanity, I would argue.
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It was something that had been building for quite some time.
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And like any smart campaign, the people leading this campaign weren't after 100%, you know, because most people my age, for example, still support Israel and Israel's right to exist within safe and secure borders and to defend itself.
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It's young people where the problem exists, and that's where they targeted their campaign.
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But it's no longer just young people.
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You and I are both in Toronto at the moment.
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The mayor of Toronto has been horrific in failing to address anti-Semitism in the city.
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It's running rampant.
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You have people shooting at schools, you have people attacking synagogues, you have protesters marching through Jewish neighborhoods, but then you also see it in members of Congress in the United States, you see it in the mayor of New York City, you see it in world leaders in Australia, in France, in Britain, and the list goes on and on.
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So this is not just a young people problem anymore.
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What is it that is going on in the West that makes anti-Semitism so easily adopted and absorbed?
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You know, I speak in synagogues and community centers, I speak at Jewish organizations all the time.
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And I'm going to be doing a lot more of that in support of the book in the coming weeks.
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And you know, I'll have people say to me, Well, you know, Warren, in Canada, there's this number of Jews and there's four times as many Muslims.
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And I'll say, yeah.
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And they believe that I think that's what's driving this political change that you described.
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But it's not just there, it's in public opinion.
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You know, so 75% of registered new Democrats in the United States now count themselves as opposed to Israel.
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And, you know, for about a month now, the latest data is about 55% of Republicans also express the same horrible point of view.
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So what the politicians are doing is what politicians have done since time immemorial.
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They're looking at the polls, they're looking at the numbers and seeing that public opinion is orbiting away, it's gravitating away against Israel, and they're saying, well, the hell with it.
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I'm going to kind of go with the crowd if I want to get re-elected.
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And that's why I say, and I think you want to talk to me about it, why I think Israel needs to step up its game in telling its story, because it's not just the bad guys have led us to this moment.
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Israel needs to do a better job of telling its own story.
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100%.
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Let's talk about that.
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You and many, many, many other people argue that Israel has been terrible at the information war.
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But there are people that are going to say, look, the situation being what it is, no matter what Israel says or does, there's just people that are going to condemn it anyways.
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The United Nations has been anti-Israel for long before October 7th.
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You have these human rights organizations that have been condemning Israel for decades.
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You have countries that have been making horrific statements about the Jewish state forever.
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So why even try to satisfy international opinion?
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I think it goes back to 1948 in partition.
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Like it's been unrelenting, but it is particularly bad now.
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And it's extraordinary that it's really bad right now at a time when Jews, so obviously around the world, like you know, this summer we've learned from Statistics Canada 75% of hate crimes in Canada, in this country you and I are in right now, are against Jews.
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75%.
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And what percentage of Canadians are Jewish?
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Less than 2%.
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Right.
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So, you know, it's way out of proportion to their membership in this country, their citizenship.
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So, I mean, I love Israel and I love Israelis.
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And, you know, one day when I croak, you're gonna be one of the people tossing my ashes or somewhere in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.
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Noted.
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Yeah, we can do that if you want.
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I have to think about that.
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Okay, cool.
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Good to know.
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But you know, I love Israel and I love Israelis, and you know, when you go there, we've both been there so many times, you see black kids in the IDF, and you see Muslims in the judiciary and in the Knesset, and you see women in positions of authority that does not happen elsewhere in democracy.
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You see that Israel is a diverse, pluralistic, truly democratic state.
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And it's an amazing story that the world needs to see.
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Because the moment the world sees and understands the reality of Israel, that is when I believe public opinion, those drivers I refer to, that those are going to shift.
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That is going to change because it's not a white supremacist state.
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The first thing I did when I was in Israel last month is I took a picture of a traffic sign saying, you know, Jerusalem that way and Tel Aviv that way, and the second language is Arabic.
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Right.
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But, you know, Israel, in fairness, I'm not being critical per se of Israel's inability to tell that story at the present time, because Israel's been fighting a war largely alone, actually now alone, on seven fronts.
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So they're kind of busy.
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But I think that when we have some relative degree of calm, Jews need to do what Jews do better than anybody else does, which is tell the story about this amazing democracy.
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And I think that will help suppress some of the awful stuff that we're seeing across Western democracy.
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Israel does have a good story to tell.
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And I always feel like people getting to see the reality, and Israel's not perfect, and it's got its flaws, but even so, the overall product is something that we can stand proudly behind.
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So I agree with you in that sense.
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But the question is how?
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How do we compete with social media content that's emotional, simple, super viral, intended to elicit emotions in order to get clickbait, rage bait, and generate profits for the platforms?
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That's what we're up against.
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How do we do that and tell our story?
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Yeah, and you know more about that subject than just about anybody I know.
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And it is exceedingly difficult.
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And it's particularly difficult because you know, our side is the democratic side.
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And so we do have a diversity of opinion.
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We have debate, as you're supposed to in a democracy.
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So there's not this monolithic view or narrative that's coming out of Israel and coming out of the West.
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Whereas the bad guys, like in Gaza, you and I both know there are people who object to Hamas.
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But if they get to a podium and stand up and express that, that's the end of them, right?
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They will be killed.
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So, you know, the other side, by virtue of being a dictatorship and vicious and violent, is actually quite disciplined in their messaging.
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And what's extraordinary is they've been able to preserve that kind of message discipline throughout the West as well.
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You know, there's an alphabet soup of, I don't know, 150 to 200 of these anti-Semitic groups in North America at the present time.
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And their ability to keep together on the message piece is something else.
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For example, when the ceasefire took place in October of last year, you know, their demand for a ceasefire, well, it had been met.
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You know, Israel said, okay, we're gonna have a ceasefire.
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And it just took them six hours to turn on a dime, this very disciplined group I'm talking about, and start focusing on IDF soldiers committing war crimes, and here they are where they live in Canada and the United States and elsewhere, and crimes within the West Bank.
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To be able to do that on a global basis within six hours, not only is that extraordinary communication skill, that's something that's never happened before.
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So I think a lot of us in the West need to throw off our arrogance or our indifference and thinking, well, we're just dealing with people who are living in caves, you know, and writing on stone tablets.
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We're not.
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We're dealing with some very sophisticated communicators who know what they're doing.
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And even though they hate the West, they know how to move public opinion in the West.
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Where should we be making investments to better fight this war?
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As we talked about, telling the story of Israel better, and so communicating that to the world.
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Israel is the most technologically advanced country in the world.
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For its size, it is amazing the technological advancements.
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But because Israel has been driven by a bit of an you know an internal debate over where it's going as a country.
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That was a very polite Canadian way to say that.
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Slight disagreement over the internal politics.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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And we're gonna see what happens in October.
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.640
We're gonna see, you know, who wins or whatever, but that needs to come together.
00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:08.000
Israelis need to say, okay, and I've said this to my Jewish friends here in the West, we are facing an existential crisis, truly, meaning our existence is threatened.
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:15.119
We need to get our act together, boys and girls, and land on a central strategy and a central message.
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:28.799
And, you know, I'm a campaign guy, that's what I do, and it has blown me away that we've been unable, or the Jewish community has been unable to do that at a time when its existence is literally threatened.
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:30.640
So that's something that we need to do.
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.559
And we need to tell the story of who these people are and expose them.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:38.880
You know, nothing makes cockroaches scatter better than daylight, right?
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:40.480
You shine a light on them.
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.160
That's what I try to do in the book.
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:44.799
That's what I try to do in the documentary that I did.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.200
Tell us about the documentary, which I love.
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:58.079
Basically, the documentary is the visual expression of the thesis in the book, and it's called the campaign, and it's about disinformation in a time of war.
00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:01.839
And so all the things that you and I have talked about are in there.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:11.200
And we have people from Leon Panetta, you know, the former Secretary of Defense in the United States, to smart people like you and Alon Levy and so on.
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:18.960
And there's parts of it that are critical of the government of Israel for kind of letting the ball drop on the communications front.
00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:22.240
But it's um, you know, we're gonna try and get it out there.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:29.440
We have no illusions about our ability to get it on Netflix or any of that stuff or the CBC here in Canada.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:30.880
That ain't gonna happen.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:34.480
So we're gonna be uh creative about how we can get it in front of people.
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:44.799
Absolutely agree that what we have been facing off against is a nefarious, well-funded, well organized campaign that's been underway for years and we've underestimated them.
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:53.759
And I know that technology really needs to play a meaningful role in fighting back, but that's gonna feel out of reach to a lot of people that don't have the technical skills.
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.680
So, one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is how we build critical thinking.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:59.759
How do we make people more resilient?
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:01.359
To manipulation.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:11.200
Have you thought about that as well and what democracies could be doing, or ordinary people listening right now, could be doing to help encourage the building of critical thinking skills?
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.599
It's an important question, and it's got a multi-layered answer to it.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:18.720
And you've identified all of us have a role to play.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:24.880
And by all of us, I mean governments, individuals, NGOs, associations, charities.
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:42.079
So, you know, what I'm used to in a campaign is we have a defined campaign period, and we have a campaign manager, and he or she says, Kinsella, you're doing this, and Aviva, you're doing this, and here's the message, and here's our resources, and go to it.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.079
And that has not happened here.
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.240
So, you know, governments love, for example, advocacy advertising.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.480
They love advertising to us about health care and smoking and all kinds of other things.
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:58.000
Well, they need to do some advertising about this, about the perniciousness and the dangers of anti-Semitic hate.
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:08.720
You know, the Jewish organizations in the West, what I've observed as your Irish Catholic buddy, is they spend an awful lot of time fighting each other and not coming together on a central strategy.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:13.200
And, you know, the competitive fundraising against each other that needs to stop.
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:18.160
And then individual citizens need to stop considering themselves to be powerless.
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:37.839
Like if you're out there listening to me right now and you're in Red Deer or you're in Topeka, Kansas, and you have a story to tell about what you experienced personally, or somebody you know in Israel, or some wonderful thing that happened to you, tell that story and be relentless about it on the internet.
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:39.359
That's what I did years ago.
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:48.960
I was a witness, I ended up not being called, but I was a witness for the amazing Deborah Lipstadt in her libel action against David Irving, the Holocaust denier.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:54.240
And as soon as my name was on the witness list, all of these haters started attacking me around the globe.
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:55.599
And I wasn't sure what to do.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.279
And some friends said, start a website.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:59.119
They've got websites, start a website.
00:23:59.200 --> 00:23:59.680
Well, I did.
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:05.039
So I get six million visitors a year, depending on the year, to my website.
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:06.240
And that's just me.
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:09.200
You know, they're not coming there because I'm some genius or something.
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:15.440
I'm just relentlessly putting content up and telling the stories that I think need to be told.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:16.640
Anyone can do that.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:19.359
You don't need a government or a corporation behind you.
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:28.480
So to answer your important question, all of us have a role to play here because the campaign we are facing is operating at multiple levels.
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:43.440
It's operating in a governmental level, state-level support of anti-Semitic hate, but also charities and NGOs and nonprofits and associations and academia and public service unions and student organizations, all of it.
00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:45.599
Like they've penetrated all of that.
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:50.400
And we need to have an opposing structure that is just as effective.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:55.119
Because I believe if we do that, we will win because we have the better story.
00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:56.799
Like we're telling the truth.
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:58.000
They're liars.
00:24:58.160 --> 00:24:59.200
We're not liars.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:08.880
We're telling a better story about democracy and civilization and the decency of Israel and the amazing contributions of the Jewish people to the human race.
00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:10.480
We have a better story to tell.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.319
We have a better story, and I will add that we have better people.
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.519
Chief amongst those better people that I count is you.
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:20.640
I gave some of your bio at the beginning, but I want to sing your praises.
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:28.799
Warren is a political strategist, he's a journalist, he's a kingmaker of Canadian politicians, but he's also an attorney.
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:29.920
He's the author of 10 books.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:31.200
He's got a documentary out.
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:32.160
You've heard it.
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:36.400
He is one of the smartest, most intelligent, most analytical people on this topic.
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:45.279
And I want to encourage you, if you're listening and looking to bring someone to your community, you consider bringing Warren to talk about the hidden hand, his book, or his documentary, The Campaign.
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:47.440
Where can they find you in order to be able to do that?
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:51.519
You can get me at warnconsell.com and the book they can get it on Amazon.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:53.440
I guess that's the easiest way to get it.
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:58.559
And then the documentary will be rolling out at a theater, hopefully near you coming this fall.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:25:59.759
You are a treasure.
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:00.319
Thank you.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:02.079
Thank you, my friend.
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:08.559
That's a wrap on today's episode of Boundless Insights.
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:13.279
Whether you've been with us from the start or are just discovering our show, we're so glad you're here.
00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:19.839
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00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:22.880
Email me at podcast at boundlessisrael.org.
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.400
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00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:31.039
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00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:59.119
Until next time, stay curious, stay informed, and keep the conversation going.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:07.759
Almost immediately, what I observed were protests and agitation against Israel, against the victim.
00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:12.640
And that, of course, just made no sense to me, just on the basis of simple decency.
00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:20.800
And so I spoke to political people I know, and I have lots of friends on the right and on the left in Canada, the United States, and Europe and the Middle East.
00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:23.120
And I said, you know, this looks like a campaign.
00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:25.920
This looks quite organized and quite well done.
00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:38.640
And the response I got from everybody was, absolutely, this is a global propaganda campaign against Jews, the Jewish state, but also Western democracy, and it hasn't relented ever since.
00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:43.039
Today is Wednesday, August 26th.
00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:46.399
This is Boundless Insights, and I'm Aviva Columbus.
00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:54.799
After October 7th, many people assumed that the explosion of anti-Israel activity around the world was a spontaneous grassroots movement.
00:00:55.039 --> 00:01:04.239
But what if one of the most consequential campaigns of our time wasn't fought with soldiers or diplomats, but with influencers, protest movements, and social media?
00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:06.560
My guest today is Warren Kinsella.
00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:14.959
He's one of Canada's best-known political strategists, and for decades, he's designed political campaigns and studied how public opinion is shaped.
00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:30.719
In his new book called The Hidden Hand, The Information War, and the Rise of Anti-Semitic Propaganda, he argues that much of what we've witnessed these past two and a half years was a sophisticated information campaign designed to shape how people understand Israel, Jews, and the conflict.
00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:35.599
Today we're going to go beyond the headlines to examine how narratives are weaponized.
00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:39.200
Let's get into it.
00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:44.480
Warren Kinsello, welcome to Boundless Insights.
00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:46.000
Thanks so much for having me.
00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:47.840
I have a fellow Canadian with me.
00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:53.120
This is nice, and I have a nice non-Jewish journalist political strategist.
00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:59.680
So how does a guy with excellent career credentials come to get caught up in this whole anti-Semitism mess?
00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.719
I think it was how my parents raised me and my brothers.
00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:06.000
And my dad was a doc, and I was born in Montreal.
00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:07.840
I was born in a very Jewish neighborhood.
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:13.199
You know, we had Jewish friends and Jewish colleagues, and it's just our life.
00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:22.479
And we moved around a lot, you know, Texas and Ontario and Quebec and so on, but it was in Alberta I encountered for the first time organized racism.
00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:24.159
I talk about it in the hidden hand.
00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:31.360
Some skinheads, Nazi skinheads came to one of the shows that I put on, and we're making Nazi salutes.
00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:35.919
And you know, we all have moments in our lives when there's this some crystallizing thing.
00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:43.120
And that was the crystallizing moment for me where anti-Semitism had moved, which I didn't ever doubt existed.
00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:44.800
I just hadn't experienced it.
00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:48.479
It moved from the theoretical or the academic to the real.
00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:56.080
It became a preoccupation of mine and has ever since, because regrettably, you know, the problem has just gotten worse.
00:02:56.400 --> 00:02:58.719
And congratulations on your new book, The Hidden Hand.
00:02:58.800 --> 00:02:59.840
I have it right here.
00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:10.879
In the book, you argue that what many people see as a spontaneous grassroots movement in response to October 7th was at least in part a sophisticated political campaign.
00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:14.639
Now you've spent your career designing political campaigns.
00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:17.120
So how is it that you knew it wasn't organic?
00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:22.000
You know, when you work in a political campaign and you know all of us have won some and we've all lost some.
00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:24.000
But you have won more than most.
00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:25.360
I've won a few.
00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:28.400
And the one skill you acquire is how to spot them.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.919
And you know, what are the emblems, what are the indicators of a campaign?
00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:44.719
You know, a campaign manager and campaign co-chairs and communications people for mainstream media and for social media and fundraisers and volunteers in the front, you know, the people who do outreach.
00:03:44.879 --> 00:04:09.759
And what I noticed after the seventh, so the seventh, as we all know, but it's important to remind people, was the greatest act, violence against the Jewish people on a single day since the Holocaust, 1200 men, women killed children, babies killed, Israeli women and girls sexually violated, 250 kidnapped, and hundreds who are often forgotten, grievously wounded.
00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:17.199
So this terrible day when Israel was so obviously the victim of Hamas and this evil.
00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:25.439
And almost immediately what I observed were protests and agitation against Israel, against the victim.
00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:30.399
And that, of course, just made no sense to me, just on the basis of simple decency.
00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:38.560
And so I spoke to political people I know, and I have lots of friends on the right and on the left in Canada, the United States, and Europe and the Middle East.
00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:40.800
And I said, you know, this looks like a campaign.
00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:43.600
This looks quite organized and quite well done.
00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:55.680
And the response I got from everybody was, absolutely, this is a global propaganda campaign against Jews, the Jewish state, but also Western democracy, and hasn't relented ever since.
00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:12.560
You spoke about simple decency, and I think what so many people in the Jewish community have found so unnerving is that we've just watched these claims about Jews or Israel that are truly preposterous and would have once been dismissed as just insane, have become mainstream news.
00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:16.160
So you have the New York Times running a story about Israeli rape dogs.
00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:32.720
You have Mamdani out there pretending he can arrest world leaders if they're Israeli world leaders, you have members of Congress railing against Jewish money, you have the vice president of the United States going on Joe Rogan to just drop the notion that Jeffrey Epstein was an Israeli American spy.
00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:40.639
Why is it that just the normal standards of critical thinking have collapsed when the topic is either Israel or Jews?
00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:45.519
You know, the indicators of anti-Semitism, as we both know, have always existed.
00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:49.759
You've always had Holocaust deniers and Hitler freaks and neo-Nazis.
00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:57.040
They were always there, but they always clustered at the margins of the popular discourse, about debates, about elections.
00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:03.600
You know, one of these assholes would run for public office and they'd come, you know, 15th out of a field of 15.
00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:14.959
And what they discovered around the mid-90s, David Irving and Ernstundl and Forison in France and all these other, mainly Holocaust deniers, was the power of the internet.
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:25.519
And what it enabled them to do is to communicate their homily of hate globally, instantaneously, with zero cost that had never happened to them before.
00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:33.680
And what's extraordinary, and I talk about this in the book, because I've written about the far right, the neo-Nazi white supremacist far right.
00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:42.480
They learned from their predecessors, the Zundals and so on, how to propagate their message around the world.
00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:48.800
And what they were aided and abetted by was, of course, getting back to my description of a campaign structure.
00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:53.279
The campaign manager here is Iran, the enemy of Israel and the Jewish people.
00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:56.560
The co-chairs here are Russia and China, I would say.
00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:58.240
The banker is Qatar.
00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:11.040
And then here in the West, you've got this alphabet soup of NGOs and charities and nonprofits who are anti-Semitic in nature, who've all come together to create this global propaganda campaign.
00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:18.240
And it has been exceedingly effective in a way that the Holocaust deniers of old could only dream of.
00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:27.120
There's a couple of reasons why I think they've been very successful, and part of it is they've targeted very carefully one specific audience.
00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:28.000
Say more.
00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.240
The audience is young people.
00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:38.800
What they have successfully done is persuaded young people, and you know, and you and I have known each other for a while, and you know I'm a big guy.
00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:43.040
So when I see these protests, I just wade right into the middle of them.
00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:49.120
And I'll go up to a kid and say, that sign you're holding, that's anti-Semitic.
00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:52.560
Like that's a horrible, terrible thing that you're saying.
00:07:52.720 --> 00:08:04.560
And these kids will say to you, because they are mainly kids, you know, Gen Z from about 18 to 24, millennials from about 25 to 42, they'll say, Well, no, no, no, I'm not being anti-Semitic.
00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:06.079
I'm being anti-racist.
00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:26.720
That has been the central success of this global propaganda campaign that I write about in the book, which is they have successfully propagated the notion to these young people that Israel is a fascistic, white supremacist, colonialist, apartheid state in the way that South Africa once was.
00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:35.039
And so what they've done is say, well, if you know, if you join us in this effort, you know, you're being an anti-racist, you're not being anti-Semitic.
00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:39.200
And that has been the characteristic of this campaign from the outset.
00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:54.960
And they've been assisted by, you know, an unlimited supply of funds from places like Qatar and some serious organizational chops that, you know, some of us in the West, we kind of arrogantly assume about Hamas, they couldn't organize their way out of a paper bank.
00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:56.559
Militarily, that is so.
00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:02.159
You know, Israel will always prevail, thank God, in battles with Hamas and Hezbollah.
00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:12.240
But on the propaganda front, my friend, Israel is getting its ass kicked because Israel has kind of let go the job of telling its own story.
00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:21.360
And into that void, because communications abhors a void, have stepped these haters and they very successfully captured that one demographic.
00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:30.960
You are pretty tough on Israel and PR that I am going to ask you about it, but every propaganda campaign needs an audience that's willing to receive the message.
00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:36.240
Why is it that you think that these narratives have found such fertile ground in Western democracies?
00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:41.679
With young people in particular, it's been very successful going back because of the pandemic.
00:09:41.759 --> 00:10:00.879
You know, the ADL, for example, for about six years did comprehensive polling that's available publicly, people who can check it out, that found that always people on the right, the left, young, old, east, west, whatever, if you were concerned about anti-Semitism, you were also concerned about racism, right?
00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:02.639
They kind of moved in tandem.
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:12.080
And around the time of the pandemic, for young people, their preoccupation with racism continued, but their concern about anti-Semitism wasn't like that.
00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:16.559
And so the pandemic was a time when it was terrible for young people.
00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:22.480
They were told their dreams about the future and homeownership and jobs and so on were largely gone.
00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:27.360
They, you know, commencement exercise and proms, all of that stuff was gone.
00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:29.600
It was a crummy time for young people.
00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:33.360
And what guys like me do in campaigns, we look for what we call drivers.
00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:35.759
What is driving public opinion?
00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:47.120
And the driver of public opinion in that time, about five or six years ago, was the internet became a source of conspiracy theories about Jews and the Jewish state.
00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:53.759
And so what you saw, and it's in the data, where young people started to believe in conspiracy theories at that time.
00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.320
Their world in its entirety was the internet.
00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:59.600
And so COVID was invented by Jews.
00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:08.159
And it was invented by Jews so that they could profit because they own all the pharmaceutical companies and all of this nonsense, all of this bullshit.
00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:14.960
But it was very effectively done in a way that, you know, the predecessors like Zundal and so on had not.
00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:25.679
And so that's why you started to see this divergence with young people to the point where we have now, when the seventh happened, the bad guys were ready to go.
00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:33.840
It wasn't like something magically happened on the morning of the seventh, you know, this terrible day in the history of humanity, I would argue.
00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:36.799
It was something that had been building for quite some time.
00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:52.960
And like any smart campaign, the people leading this campaign weren't after 100%, you know, because most people my age, for example, still support Israel and Israel's right to exist within safe and secure borders and to defend itself.
00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:57.200
It's young people where the problem exists, and that's where they targeted their campaign.
00:11:57.440 --> 00:11:59.120
But it's no longer just young people.
00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:01.039
You and I are both in Toronto at the moment.
00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:05.759
The mayor of Toronto has been horrific in failing to address anti-Semitism in the city.
00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:06.639
It's running rampant.
00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:22.000
You have people shooting at schools, you have people attacking synagogues, you have protesters marching through Jewish neighborhoods, but then you also see it in members of Congress in the United States, you see it in the mayor of New York City, you see it in world leaders in Australia, in France, in Britain, and the list goes on and on.
00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:24.879
So this is not just a young people problem anymore.
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:30.720
What is it that is going on in the West that makes anti-Semitism so easily adopted and absorbed?
00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:35.600
You know, I speak in synagogues and community centers, I speak at Jewish organizations all the time.
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.919
And I'm going to be doing a lot more of that in support of the book in the coming weeks.
00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:47.919
And you know, I'll have people say to me, Well, you know, Warren, in Canada, there's this number of Jews and there's four times as many Muslims.
00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:49.200
And I'll say, yeah.
00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:54.879
And they believe that I think that's what's driving this political change that you described.
00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:58.080
But it's not just there, it's in public opinion.
00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:06.639
You know, so 75% of registered new Democrats in the United States now count themselves as opposed to Israel.
00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:16.159
And, you know, for about a month now, the latest data is about 55% of Republicans also express the same horrible point of view.
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.960
So what the politicians are doing is what politicians have done since time immemorial.
00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:30.960
They're looking at the polls, they're looking at the numbers and seeing that public opinion is orbiting away, it's gravitating away against Israel, and they're saying, well, the hell with it.
00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:35.120
I'm going to kind of go with the crowd if I want to get re-elected.
00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:47.440
And that's why I say, and I think you want to talk to me about it, why I think Israel needs to step up its game in telling its story, because it's not just the bad guys have led us to this moment.
00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:50.480
Israel needs to do a better job of telling its own story.
00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:51.200
100%.
00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:52.320
Let's talk about that.
00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:58.639
You and many, many, many other people argue that Israel has been terrible at the information war.
00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:07.120
But there are people that are going to say, look, the situation being what it is, no matter what Israel says or does, there's just people that are going to condemn it anyways.
00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:12.399
The United Nations has been anti-Israel for long before October 7th.
00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:16.960
You have these human rights organizations that have been condemning Israel for decades.
00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:21.679
You have countries that have been making horrific statements about the Jewish state forever.
00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:24.799
So why even try to satisfy international opinion?
00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.519
I think it goes back to 1948 in partition.
00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:31.519
Like it's been unrelenting, but it is particularly bad now.
00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:47.200
And it's extraordinary that it's really bad right now at a time when Jews, so obviously around the world, like you know, this summer we've learned from Statistics Canada 75% of hate crimes in Canada, in this country you and I are in right now, are against Jews.
00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:48.159
75%.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.039
And what percentage of Canadians are Jewish?
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:52.240
Less than 2%.
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:53.120
Right.
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:59.120
So, you know, it's way out of proportion to their membership in this country, their citizenship.
00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:02.159
So, I mean, I love Israel and I love Israelis.
00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:08.080
And, you know, one day when I croak, you're gonna be one of the people tossing my ashes or somewhere in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.
00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:08.799
Noted.
00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:10.399
Yeah, we can do that if you want.
00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:11.759
I have to think about that.
00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:12.559
Okay, cool.
00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:13.279
Good to know.
00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:32.480
But you know, I love Israel and I love Israelis, and you know, when you go there, we've both been there so many times, you see black kids in the IDF, and you see Muslims in the judiciary and in the Knesset, and you see women in positions of authority that does not happen elsewhere in democracy.
00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:39.120
You see that Israel is a diverse, pluralistic, truly democratic state.
00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:43.200
And it's an amazing story that the world needs to see.
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:53.519
Because the moment the world sees and understands the reality of Israel, that is when I believe public opinion, those drivers I refer to, that those are going to shift.
00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:57.360
That is going to change because it's not a white supremacist state.
00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:06.639
The first thing I did when I was in Israel last month is I took a picture of a traffic sign saying, you know, Jerusalem that way and Tel Aviv that way, and the second language is Arabic.
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:07.200
Right.
00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:21.279
But, you know, Israel, in fairness, I'm not being critical per se of Israel's inability to tell that story at the present time, because Israel's been fighting a war largely alone, actually now alone, on seven fronts.
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:22.720
So they're kind of busy.
00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:35.360
But I think that when we have some relative degree of calm, Jews need to do what Jews do better than anybody else does, which is tell the story about this amazing democracy.
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:41.679
And I think that will help suppress some of the awful stuff that we're seeing across Western democracy.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:43.600
Israel does have a good story to tell.
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:54.240
And I always feel like people getting to see the reality, and Israel's not perfect, and it's got its flaws, but even so, the overall product is something that we can stand proudly behind.
00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:55.679
So I agree with you in that sense.
00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:57.600
But the question is how?
00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:11.359
How do we compete with social media content that's emotional, simple, super viral, intended to elicit emotions in order to get clickbait, rage bait, and generate profits for the platforms?
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:12.720
That's what we're up against.
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:15.279
How do we do that and tell our story?
00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:19.359
Yeah, and you know more about that subject than just about anybody I know.
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:21.519
And it is exceedingly difficult.
00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:26.319
And it's particularly difficult because you know, our side is the democratic side.
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.039
And so we do have a diversity of opinion.
00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:31.759
We have debate, as you're supposed to in a democracy.
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:38.079
So there's not this monolithic view or narrative that's coming out of Israel and coming out of the West.
00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:43.440
Whereas the bad guys, like in Gaza, you and I both know there are people who object to Hamas.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.960
But if they get to a podium and stand up and express that, that's the end of them, right?
00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:50.400
They will be killed.
00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:59.440
So, you know, the other side, by virtue of being a dictatorship and vicious and violent, is actually quite disciplined in their messaging.
00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:06.640
And what's extraordinary is they've been able to preserve that kind of message discipline throughout the West as well.
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:15.279
You know, there's an alphabet soup of, I don't know, 150 to 200 of these anti-Semitic groups in North America at the present time.
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:20.880
And their ability to keep together on the message piece is something else.
00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:29.200
For example, when the ceasefire took place in October of last year, you know, their demand for a ceasefire, well, it had been met.
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.240
You know, Israel said, okay, we're gonna have a ceasefire.
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:49.519
And it just took them six hours to turn on a dime, this very disciplined group I'm talking about, and start focusing on IDF soldiers committing war crimes, and here they are where they live in Canada and the United States and elsewhere, and crimes within the West Bank.
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:58.880
To be able to do that on a global basis within six hours, not only is that extraordinary communication skill, that's something that's never happened before.
00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:09.920
So I think a lot of us in the West need to throw off our arrogance or our indifference and thinking, well, we're just dealing with people who are living in caves, you know, and writing on stone tablets.
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:10.720
We're not.
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:15.039
We're dealing with some very sophisticated communicators who know what they're doing.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:19.519
And even though they hate the West, they know how to move public opinion in the West.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.880
Where should we be making investments to better fight this war?
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:27.920
As we talked about, telling the story of Israel better, and so communicating that to the world.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:30.960
Israel is the most technologically advanced country in the world.
00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:35.279
For its size, it is amazing the technological advancements.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:42.960
But because Israel has been driven by a bit of an you know an internal debate over where it's going as a country.
00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:46.400
That was a very polite Canadian way to say that.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.839
Slight disagreement over the internal politics.
00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:50.160
Okay.
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:50.559
Yeah.
00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:52.720
And we're gonna see what happens in October.
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.640
We're gonna see, you know, who wins or whatever, but that needs to come together.
00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:08.000
Israelis need to say, okay, and I've said this to my Jewish friends here in the West, we are facing an existential crisis, truly, meaning our existence is threatened.
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:15.119
We need to get our act together, boys and girls, and land on a central strategy and a central message.
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:28.799
And, you know, I'm a campaign guy, that's what I do, and it has blown me away that we've been unable, or the Jewish community has been unable to do that at a time when its existence is literally threatened.
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:30.640
So that's something that we need to do.
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.559
And we need to tell the story of who these people are and expose them.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:38.880
You know, nothing makes cockroaches scatter better than daylight, right?
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:40.480
You shine a light on them.
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.160
That's what I try to do in the book.
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:44.799
That's what I try to do in the documentary that I did.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.200
Tell us about the documentary, which I love.
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:58.079
Basically, the documentary is the visual expression of the thesis in the book, and it's called the campaign, and it's about disinformation in a time of war.
00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:01.839
And so all the things that you and I have talked about are in there.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:11.200
And we have people from Leon Panetta, you know, the former Secretary of Defense in the United States, to smart people like you and Alon Levy and so on.
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:18.960
And there's parts of it that are critical of the government of Israel for kind of letting the ball drop on the communications front.
00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:22.240
But it's um, you know, we're gonna try and get it out there.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:29.440
We have no illusions about our ability to get it on Netflix or any of that stuff or the CBC here in Canada.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:30.880
That ain't gonna happen.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:34.480
So we're gonna be uh creative about how we can get it in front of people.
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:44.799
Absolutely agree that what we have been facing off against is a nefarious, well-funded, well organized campaign that's been underway for years and we've underestimated them.
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:53.759
And I know that technology really needs to play a meaningful role in fighting back, but that's gonna feel out of reach to a lot of people that don't have the technical skills.
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.680
So, one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is how we build critical thinking.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:59.759
How do we make people more resilient?
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:01.359
To manipulation.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:11.200
Have you thought about that as well and what democracies could be doing, or ordinary people listening right now, could be doing to help encourage the building of critical thinking skills?
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.599
It's an important question, and it's got a multi-layered answer to it.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:18.720
And you've identified all of us have a role to play.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:24.880
And by all of us, I mean governments, individuals, NGOs, associations, charities.
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:42.079
So, you know, what I'm used to in a campaign is we have a defined campaign period, and we have a campaign manager, and he or she says, Kinsella, you're doing this, and Aviva, you're doing this, and here's the message, and here's our resources, and go to it.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.079
And that has not happened here.
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.240
So, you know, governments love, for example, advocacy advertising.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.480
They love advertising to us about health care and smoking and all kinds of other things.
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:58.000
Well, they need to do some advertising about this, about the perniciousness and the dangers of anti-Semitic hate.
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:08.720
You know, the Jewish organizations in the West, what I've observed as your Irish Catholic buddy, is they spend an awful lot of time fighting each other and not coming together on a central strategy.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:13.200
And, you know, the competitive fundraising against each other that needs to stop.
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:18.160
And then individual citizens need to stop considering themselves to be powerless.
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:37.839
Like if you're out there listening to me right now and you're in Red Deer or you're in Topeka, Kansas, and you have a story to tell about what you experienced personally, or somebody you know in Israel, or some wonderful thing that happened to you, tell that story and be relentless about it on the internet.
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:39.359
That's what I did years ago.
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:48.960
I was a witness, I ended up not being called, but I was a witness for the amazing Deborah Lipstadt in her libel action against David Irving, the Holocaust denier.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:54.240
And as soon as my name was on the witness list, all of these haters started attacking me around the globe.
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:55.599
And I wasn't sure what to do.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.279
And some friends said, start a website.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:59.119
They've got websites, start a website.
00:23:59.200 --> 00:23:59.680
Well, I did.
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:05.039
So I get six million visitors a year, depending on the year, to my website.
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:06.240
And that's just me.
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:09.200
You know, they're not coming there because I'm some genius or something.
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:15.440
I'm just relentlessly putting content up and telling the stories that I think need to be told.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:16.640
Anyone can do that.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:19.359
You don't need a government or a corporation behind you.
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:28.480
So to answer your important question, all of us have a role to play here because the campaign we are facing is operating at multiple levels.
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:43.440
It's operating in a governmental level, state-level support of anti-Semitic hate, but also charities and NGOs and nonprofits and associations and academia and public service unions and student organizations, all of it.
00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:45.599
Like they've penetrated all of that.
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:50.400
And we need to have an opposing structure that is just as effective.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:55.119
Because I believe if we do that, we will win because we have the better story.
00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:56.799
Like we're telling the truth.
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:58.000
They're liars.
00:24:58.160 --> 00:24:59.200
We're not liars.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:08.880
We're telling a better story about democracy and civilization and the decency of Israel and the amazing contributions of the Jewish people to the human race.
00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:10.480
We have a better story to tell.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.319
We have a better story, and I will add that we have better people.
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.519
Chief amongst those better people that I count is you.
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:20.640
I gave some of your bio at the beginning, but I want to sing your praises.
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:28.799
Warren is a political strategist, he's a journalist, he's a kingmaker of Canadian politicians, but he's also an attorney.
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:29.920
He's the author of 10 books.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:31.200
He's got a documentary out.
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:32.160
You've heard it.
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:36.400
He is one of the smartest, most intelligent, most analytical people on this topic.
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:45.279
And I want to encourage you, if you're listening and looking to bring someone to your community, you consider bringing Warren to talk about the hidden hand, his book, or his documentary, The Campaign.
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:47.440
Where can they find you in order to be able to do that?
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:51.519
You can get me at warnconsell.com and the book they can get it on Amazon.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:53.440
I guess that's the easiest way to get it.
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:58.559
And then the documentary will be rolling out at a theater, hopefully near you coming this fall.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:25:59.759
You are a treasure.
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:00.319
Thank you.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:02.079
Thank you, my friend.
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:08.559
That's a wrap on today's episode of Boundless Insights.
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:13.279
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00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:19.839
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00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:22.880
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