WEBVTT
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What's amazing after my encounter with the hostages who were returned, I would ask them how they coped.
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And it turns out that they did pretty much the exact same things that we teach our commandos in POW training.
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And I'm talking about elderly ladies that could be grandmothers in the late 70s, or a 10-year-old boy.
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They literally did things that we teach in POW training.
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Today is Wednesday, September 30th.
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This is Boundless Insights, and I'm Aviva Klumpus.
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On October 7th, 2023, 1,200 people were murdered and 251 were taken hostage into Gaza.
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In the days and weeks that followed, Israel was in chaos.
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People were missing and injured, and many families didn't know whether their loved one had been killed or taken captive.
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No one knew when or if the hostages would return or what they were enduring.
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It was amid that chaos that Glenn Cohen, a former chief operational psychologist of the Mossad, was called back into service.
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During his three decades in Israel's intelligence service, he helped prepare operatives for extreme situations, including the possibility of capture.
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After October 7th, that expertise was needed on an unprecedented scale.
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Glenn helped develop Israel's protocols for receiving returning hostages and led the team that debriefed the 168 who came home alive.
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They had to balance between caring for released captives and gathering information that could help those still being held.
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Today we're going to talk about what captivity does to the mind, what allows people to survive it, and what he's learned from the hostages who came home.
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Let's get into it.
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Glenn Cohen, welcome to Boundless Insights.
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Thank you, Aviva, for inviting me.
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This is an unbelievable privilege for us.
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You have one of the most incredible personal stories on your journey from becoming a young American, as everybody can hear from your accent, to chief psychologist in the Mossad.
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And this could be the material for a movie, but could you tell it to us?
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I was born and raised in New York City, and my father passed away when I was six.
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And uh Ramaz high school took us in, you know, with a full scholarship.
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And I'd never been to Israel.
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I was uh a basketball player, you know, since my father died.
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Uh I became the Iceman, you know, literally I cut off all my emotions and not to be vulnerable, but I got that nickname also as a basketball player.
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I was on my way to play basketball at uh Brandeis with a scholarship, but I came to Israel for one year in 1982 to be in yeshiva in Jerusalem, and that was the first Lebanon War.
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And so I saw guys my age fighting for the country, and uh I decided that uh I'm not gonna go play ball and drink beer, but I'm gonna also defend the state of Israel.
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And so I joined and uh against all odds, I became uh a pilot, really another guardian angel.
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I have to mention, when I mentioned Ramaz, I also have to say Rabbi Haskell Luxtein, may he live until 120.
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He's 93 now, and so he was the first guardian angel.
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And in the army, this Air Force doctor decided to see me as a person and not as a number because my profile, uh, instead of the highest being 97, uh, it was 64, with the cutoff for combat being 65.
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So he allowed me in because of my motivation.
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And it's like getting into Harvard with a 2.0 GPA.
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And uh I flew many missions as a search and rescue helicopter pilot and saved many lives in Lebanon uh thanks to uh Dr.
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David Forecast, who allowed me in.
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And that was an amazing experience.
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I was served for seven years, and then I had another privilege of joining the Mossad, and I spent uh 25 years there and um managed to be the psychologist of our operational workers, and I did that for many years, selecting, training, and bringing them to peak performance.
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And I finally left at the age of 50, and I retired at the age of 50 as my last position there was the chief operational psychologist of the of the Mosad.
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So really such a blessed journey, and thanks to all those people who helped me along the way.
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One of the things that I read about was that your father was American, your mother was Swedish, and after your father passed away, your mother took you back to Sweden, but then ultimately brought you back to New York City to fulfill a promise.
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Can you tell us about that?
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Yes, thank you for asking because it's an opportunity for me to give respect to my beloved mother of blessed memory.
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She passed away five years ago, and she really is the she's the secret of my success.
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She gave me and my brother unconditional love.
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And uh, my grandfather, who was a scholar at the Jewish Theological Seminary, asked her to promise that we would get a proper Jewish education.
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And he passed away when I was four, my father passed away when I was six, and then my mother was left uh all alone in New York City uh with two young boys, and uh she brought us back to her homeland, to Sweden, to be close to her family.
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And we studied in an American school there, and I'll never forget she took us to Sunday schools to check them out, and I'll never forget her saying, this isn't good enough for Grandpa Boaz.
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He said he wants a proper Jewish education for you, and I promised, and I have to keep my word.
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And she uh brought us back to New York City, to that jungle, and put us uh back in Orthodox schools, and so that you know is the symbol of integrity, keeping a word to a person who's not alive anymore.
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And so I have to thank my mother for so much and also for for that.
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Truly an incredible woman.
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The other piece from your background that I found really interesting was that when you joined the army, you wanted to be a pilot.
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But as you said, your physical profile wasn't high enough for it.
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And you were actually assigned to be in the photocopy room.
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And somehow, from the photocopy room, you talk your way into pilot training.
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How'd you do that?
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I dreamt of being a pilot.
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I got to the induction center and they asked me, what do you want to do in the army?
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And I said, uh, you know, I want to be a pilot, I want to be in Sayyat Matkal, and all the best units.
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And they just laughed at me and said, you know, there you're a greenhorn.
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You just got off the boat, and you have to be vetted and screened for a year and a half before that, and uh no chance for that.
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And I said, Well, okay, what's the best I can do?
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And they said, Well, you can volunteer to the paratroopers.
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And so I volunteered to the paratroopers and um I got into a special unit there.
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And but every week I would ask to be transferred to the Air Force, and um, there's a form, it's the same form today, 40 years later.
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It's called form number 55, when you request to change uh to a different unit.
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And um, nothing happened with that after a few months, and I eventually got injured, nothing heroic or dramatic, but I tore a ligament in my ankle, and the doctor of the paratroopers said, That's it, you're no longer a paratrooper, but don't worry, we have a job for you.
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And they sent me down to the Air Force headquarters near Beersheva in Chatzerim Air Base, and they said, You see that building there?
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Yeah, you see that room?
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Yeah, you see in the room there's a photocopying machine?
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I said, Yeah, they said, You're in charge of that.
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That was my job to be a Xerox photocopying clerk.
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And I mean, I was at my wits' end depressed, and I happened to get a letter uh to be invited to the Air Force uh training or selection process for the Air Force Academy.
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And I called him, I said, Well, you must know that I have a uh 64 profile, not 97.
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That's uh demanding.
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And they said, Well, you know what?
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We you already have a spot, come and we'll see.
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And I went through all the list of the different doctors, and the orthopedist said, No way, this guy will not be combat.
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But the final, final doctor who had to integrate everything, I saw on his uh on the door, his name was Dr.
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David Forecast.
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And he was a British uh new immigrant, and uh we sat down, we started chatting in English.
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He was impressed by my motivation and the glint in my eyes, and he said, You know, do you really want to be a pilot?
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I said, I'm dying to be a pilot.
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And he said, All right, I'll let you be a pilot.
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But if you get injured in the infantry training in a flight school, I'm gonna kill you.
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And that's how he opened the door and allowed me uh into a flight school.
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But but it wasn't enough because they said, Wait, wait a second, how tall are you?
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And I said, Well, I'm 6'4.
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And I said, Hmm, that's a problem because the height limitation is 6'2.
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What are we gonna do?
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They sent me down to a uh to the Air Force Base, the same Air Force Base with a photocog machine, but this time they put me in the the smallest fighter jet and they put a helmet on my head and they said, Okay, now sit straight and we're gonna close the canopy.
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And they close the canopy and and I and I start slouching down and the canopy closes on my head.
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I'm like, no problem.
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I'm fine, nothing to worry about.
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It was just crazy.
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And then it's one thing after another, and and they say, Wait, okay, but how long have you been in the country?
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I said, Two years.
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Hmm, that's a problem because it's a sensitive position and you need security clearance.
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You have to be at least five years in the country.
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Hmm, what are we gonna do?
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They sent me to be like cross-interrogated by the security forces and until they finally reach the conclusion that I'm okay and they allow me in.
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So my fellow classmates in in the academy called me the most extraordinary uh soldier in the army because it wasn't enough that you know, I was religious, I was a new immigrant, I was a lone soldier, uh 64 profile, only two years in the country.
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I mean, it was just crazy, but thank God.
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64 profile and six foot four.
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Yeah.
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Tenacity, the first indication that you were ready for the Mossad.
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Tell us before we talk about that, what does a chief psychologist of the Mossad actually do?
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So I was a chief operational psychologist in charge of selecting, training, and working with our operational workers, which are like the Ellie Cohen's uh back in the day.
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The super spies.
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Anybody who's seen uh the Netflix series, uh The Spy, it's uh from the beginning of when going through the selection process to see, you know, to choose one out of a thousand who's got the right stuff.
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And um, so that was uh I was tasked with that, and afterwards to help train them psychologically to really help them adopt and become an operational worker and to be able to live and work uh undercover in enemy territory.
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Imagine the amount of uh stress that a person like that and their family has to deal with.
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So that was my job to bring them up to par to be ready for that psychologically, and while they were active to work with them and their families and their teammates to make sure that they're operating at peak performance despite this amount of stress.
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It's sort of like uh compared to to an astronaut.
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I mean, really, how many get chosen and they're way out there?
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You can be on the dark side of the moon with no communications, hostile environment, slightest mistake, that's it, game over.
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And so it's quite the challenge to say the least.
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And uh we call it uh a parallel universe.
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It's really it's hard to imagine, but it really is uh like a parallel universe.
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Are there qualities that you're looking for in people that will give you an indication of how they will perform under pressure?
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Yeah, well, first of all, you know, the most important uh quality in jobs like this is to be able to perform under pressure.
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And uh one of the indicators is uh your past experience.
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And so if somebody has a history of where he's proven himself to have been in certain situations and he performed well, so that's something that definitely helps.
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Also in combat, you know, there you get trained for in the special forces for a year and a half, and you really never know uh for sure how somebody's going to act under fire, but it's a matter of resilience, and um it's something that I work with uh also, you know, with the the top units in in the army and in all the security forces, and also with you know executive coaching that I do to help people deal with an immense amount of stress, to build resilience.
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I use something I call the the three circles of belief.
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And I would say that uh belief is something that's really important and contributes to resilience.
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But it's not enough just to have the inner circle of belief in yourself, but that will get you a certain distance.
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And that helps when you go through a lot of training and you've done a lot in your life, so you believe in yourself and you have self-efficacy.
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But if you really want to have more resilience and go even further, then you need a second circle of believing in others and the ability to believe in others, to to recruit others, to to work with you, to trust them, whether it's your teammates or your friends and family.
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So that also is directly translated if you're in a military unit or or in a company on any team.
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The ability to trust others, believe in them, and to be vulnerable, that actually contributes to resilience in a paradoxical way.
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And the third circle of belief, uh, I call that belief in something greater than yourself.
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And that is something that directly uh contributes to resilience and the ability to perform, because uh if you have that belief in something greater, if it's you know the you know king and country or um you know the the the flag for Israel or or wherever, if it could it could also be in a corporate uh situation if you believe in the product and the impact that you have in making the world a better place, then you will be able to perform uh better and go the extra mile thanks to those three circles of belief.
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Now we don't want you to spill any state secrets, but I do really want to know how you train Jews to keep a secret.
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We convert them.
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Efficient.
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Okay.
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Switching topics, you've said that when you ask people how they would feel about being captured, many instinctively say they would rather die.
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What do you teach people to change about how they're thinking so that they can survive?
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I've been doing this for m decades, uh training commandos and pilots for POW uh situations, if they would fall in captivity.
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I myself went through POW training as a pilot.
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And um my job during that training is to convince them that they that they are capable.
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And at the beginning, most of them, when I ask them what their association is with a captivity, they will say, better off being dead than being in captivity.
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A lot of them will say, I'm saving the last bullet in my magazine for myself.
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That's a classic.
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And by the end of the week, training, what happens is they come to me and they say, you know what, Glenn?
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You're right.
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You convinced me.
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I feel now that I am capable of coping with this even worse case scenario that I thought I would be better off dead, because now I have the tools.
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And so we give them a whole bunch of different tools.
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And what's amazing after my encounter with the hostages who were returned, and I I would ask them how they coped, and it turns out that they did pretty much the exact same things that we teach our commandos in POW training.
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And I'm talking about elderly ladies, they could be grandmothers in the late 70s, or a 10-year-old boy.
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They literally did things that we teach in POW training, and that's incredible because that shows that we all have this inherent resilience and ability to cope much beyond what we imagine.
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And so for me, that's the biggest takeaway.
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People who are listening don't have to think about oh, captivity.
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Um, if I fall in captivity, I mean, statistically, not going to happen to 99% of the people out there.
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But any situation where uh you're in some type of traumatic situation where you are in a situation where there's no control and uncertainty, uh, the idea and the goal uh is to uh regain a sense of control.
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And yeah, our whole lives are like that.
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We we don't really have control, but we try to fool ourselves as if we have this sense of control.
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That's how we get through life, which is also one big exercise in uncertainty.
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But if you really hit something or you know some traumatic situation comes along, you feel like you're stripped of your control.
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There's a lot of uncertainty.
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And so the idea is to maintain control.
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And there are many different ways to do that.
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And one of the ways is to actually have a better sense of orientation as far as time, as far as um your geography, where you are.
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And uh many of the hostages really, they obsessively kept track of time, the days, the time of day, uh, in in really ingenious ways, which uh which is incredible.
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Because when we would ask them questions like, okay, when did you shift from the tunnel to the apartment uh in the debriefings that we did, a lot of them would say, Oh, should I, do you want me to say day number 471 or the second of December?
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Just like that, like off the bat.
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And they uh really kept track of it, and and I understood as a psychologist that the reason why it was so important to them to keep track of the days was because it was a having a sense of control and a sense of identity.
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Because if I know what day it is, then I know I'll remember what my birthday is, I'll remember the when it's uh Shabbat, when the Jewish holidays are, and that will help me feel connected.
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Otherwise, if I lose track of time and and the days, then I'll just be like lost in space, and then I'll feel really like I have no control whatsoever.
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So that was one area of regaining control, and and a lot of them did it in a way uh that we literally use the same term, we call it small wins.
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And many of the hostages came back and and and used that term, even though they weren't totally.
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They said, Yeah, I I had these small wins.
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When you know, when something is so overwhelming, you know, how do you eat an elephant bite by bite?
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So that's how that's how they did it.
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For example, they would a lot of them would say, I just want to get through the day.
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Not to say, okay, how will I get out of this?
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When will I get out of this?
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But let's just, you know, a small goal, just get through the day.
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Every day that they got through, that was a small win.
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But there were also many other types of small wins, like feeling like they were having these wins over their captors, even though they had no control seemingly.
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They weren't in control of what they ate, uh if they would eat uh how much, uh, if they were gonna sleep or go to the bathroom, the most basic things.
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But even in those situations where you have seemingly no control, they found the way to have control and and to even get the better of their captors.
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And for some of them, examples were one, for example, every time he would take a shower, a shower, I mean, you know, uh a bucket of uh brackish water uh once a month, but every time he would finish that that shower, uh, he would be the one to go back and quickly put the shackles back on his legs, because he knew that if he did it, then uh he would leave himself some breathing space.
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But if the captor did it, he would do it so tightly that it would it would bite into his skin.
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And so every time he managed to do that, for him, that was a win.
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So, you know, it it all depends on your perspective.
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And for for us, if we would see that, we'd be, oh my God, this is terrible, poor baby.
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But in his his perspective, he felt like a winner.
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:09.599
And so it just shows no matter what the situation is, how bad it is, you can always find some sense of control and feel like you are actually winning.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:15.519
You were the first mental health professional designated to meet with the hostages when they came back from Gaza.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:27.039
And there's this tension because these are people that need care and you have to be sensitive to their needs, and they have critical information that could help on the battlefield or help to save the lives of other hostages.
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:29.200
How did you approach that balance?
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:43.279
So, first of all, just for the record, I I was the first mental health professional to meet the first hostages who came out, and then I wrote the protocol, which uh ended up being very elaborate as far as how to receive them.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.279
And I met with them in the capacity of the intelligence debriefing.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:55.119
There were many other uh mental health professionals who were involved at the hospital and who also from the army when they first crossed.
00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:04.720
We met them within the first hour or so of their return in order to get time-sensitive, critical, life-saving intelligence about the other hostages.
00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.440
And like you said, there were two contradictory goals.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:19.440
But that was uh the main thing that I wrote in the protocol that if there is a conflict of interest between these, then the hostages' well-being is more important.
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:20.720
Takes precedence.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:21.200
Yeah.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:35.759
And that was something I remembered the historical stories of the POWs who came back from Yom Kippur in in 73, and they described their biggest trauma not being in captivity, but actually the way they were treated when they returned.
00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:40.480
And they were locked up in a compound in Zichhroniaco for two weeks and interrogated.
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:50.880
And so that was my compass to make sure that we wouldn't repeat that mistake and to make sure that the hostages' well-being was the most important.
00:20:51.039 --> 00:21:01.519
And so there were quite a few situations like that where we felt that the uh the returnee either didn't want to share or just wasn't uh prepared to share.
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:11.279
And uh so we just waited patiently, and some of them were even angry and and didn't want to speak to us because we represented the security apparatus that wasn't there.
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:17.359
And part of the protocol, I made sure that the the Shinbet interrogator would actually open up with an apology.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:27.599
And so part of it was just giving them the legitimacy to feel that and to express that, and uh, if they needed to take their time, we let them take their time.
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:32.960
Um, and uh there were some who we waited days uh until they would uh really open up.
00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:41.119
But at the end, you know, they they all opened up and shared because they realized that this is actually also for their well being.
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:49.359
And and that's actually the thing I'm I'm most happy about and proud about because uh it wasn't just uh you know for intelligence.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:59.759
They described it as part of their healing process for them to be able to actually help their fellow brothers and sisters and friends who were back in captivity and to have.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:07.359
An impact that gave them an incredible sense of agency and self-efficacy, and that became part of their healing process.
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:13.680
Especially for those first hostages that came out, was there a concern that they might have been booby-trapped or bugged?
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:29.359
Well, I mean, the first meeting with the on October 20th, uh, when I met the first two hostages, I mean, that was really uh incredible because what you see on TV afterwards and the red carpet they got, that's not how it all started.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:35.680
In the beginning, and I and I have to give the context because October 20th is 13 days into the war, complete chaos.
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:40.640
There's still 55 people missing, unaccounted for.
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:42.720
And so complete chaos.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:48.480
And Hamas announces that they're releasing two hostages unilaterally with no deal.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:58.799
And so there was a lot of suspicion, and uh they sent uh the toughest fighting force to meet the Red Cross ambulance, and they were ready for a firefight.
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:14.079
And um, luckily at the last minute, after they decided to send a Shinbet interrogator, they said, you know what, maybe actually my commander of the idea of hostage negotiation unit, which is my reserve duty, he convinced them that it's a good idea to send a psychologist there.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.920
And so I was sent at the last minute.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:21.839
But the fighters were ready for a firefight, and uh they thought maybe the Hamas terrorists would come out of the ambulance.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:34.880
And when Judith and Nali Ranan came out of the ambulance, they they were still a bit suspicious and um and they didn't drop their guard uh or their guns, and they were worried that maybe they might even be booby-trapped.
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:50.079
That was the initial uh thinking, and uh uh we had to work uh hard to to soften that uh and part of it was uh for us to to get our bearings and you know the the entire country was just uh traumatized, of course.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.640
And uh so we came a long way.
00:23:52.960 --> 00:24:00.319
What you see today in on TV, or you know, the last releases in October 25, that's not how it all started.
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:11.920
There's an aspect of them coming home that I've often wondered about, which is the hostages come home and discover that some of the most traumatic moments of their lives have become these images seen around the world.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:29.359
Now, I know you're not going to speak about specific hostages, but for me, some of the images that have become steered in my mind from October 7th are, for example, Nama being pulled in and out of the Jeep in the gray sweatpants with the bloody pants, or Eviatar David, a skeletal man being forced to dig his own graves.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:39.920
We shared those images all over the world when they were hostages as part of the campaign to try to free them, to show the brutality, to try to raise awareness and get people to care about them as human beings.
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:45.200
But then you come home and you discover that worst moment of your life has been seen by everybody.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:51.039
Can you talk to me about what it does to the trauma or to the healing or if there's anything that we should be sensitive about?
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:59.440
First of all, I think uh we need to remember that uh in those days there were two conflicting agendas, which people were not really aware of.
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:04.319
The the main agenda was to cry out to the world and to show them how horrific it was.
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:24.720
But a lot of people didn't realize that there's a second agenda, which is the well-being of the hostages and their families, and frankly, the our national and individual resilience, because any time any of us were exposed to all these images, it to uh took a toll on our resilience.
00:25:24.880 --> 00:26:18.400
And it was a very tricky balance, and you know, because many people weren't sleeping at night, you know, on the one hand, we shouldn't have been sleeping too well because uh we should be fighting to bring them back, but uh on the other hand, you need to sleep a little bit, and so I think part of that is to realize that uh we need to be sensitive uh also about their stories and to remember that because we identify with them, and uh the hostages are such a symbol that every Jew around the world felt that uh a part of them was also in captivity, which is which is beautiful, and that's part of the uh the saying that you know, and and we look out for each other, but we also have to be very careful not to feel a sense of ownership or entitlement and to feel as if those hostages are are really me or my family members, and uh not to cross that line.
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:39.680
So, and also not to assume all these things that you know there's so many things that people just uh assume and project upon the hostages and uh it when they were there and what they went through, um, and also when they return, assuming and um expecting that they should be reacting uh in a certain way.
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:50.799
And so it's really important that we take a step back and approach it with more with question marks and not with exclamation points and to to give them credit.
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:57.839
You know, if you mentioned Aviatar David, I I interviewed him on one of Israel's leading TV programs, Uvda.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:11.200
I didn't interview him, but actually they broadcasted a conversation be between us, and I asked him a question about how other hostages mentioned that they wouldn't erase that experience.
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:13.920
And uh I asked him, you know, what he thought about that.
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:17.359
It was unrehearsed and I had no idea how he was going to answer.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:22.559
And uh he said, Yeah, I I I agree with that, uh, which is kind of shocking for people to hear.
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:28.960
Given the choice of being taken hostage or not, he's saying that he would choose for the experience to have happened to him?
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:53.680
He said he wouldn't erase it, and many, many hostages said almost the same exact thing that I would ask them if you could turn the clock back to the 6th of October and decide not to go to the kibbutz for Synchatara or not to buy the ticket to the Nova Festival and save yourself 500 days in captivity or 738 days in captivity, what would you do?
00:27:54.240 --> 00:28:01.839
And quite a few of them, I won't say names, but quite a few of them said the exact same words, I wouldn't change a thing.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:03.039
That's unbelievable.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:12.799
Which is unbelievable, I know, and um their explanation is that of course if they could save the 1200 lives, they they would.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:38.079
But their personal suffering, what they went through in captivity, as hellish as it was, and even though people would assume that they'd be better off dead than being in that situation, they were there, it was hell, but they went to hell and came back, they survived it, and not only did they survive it, um, but they learned things about themselves that are irreplaceable.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:29:05.279
And they learned things about their resilience, and they feel that in many ways they they actually grew from this experience, even though it was super traumatic and and horrific, which is actually it's not just about captivity, and that's what I'm writing my book about about post-traumatic growth and all different types of traumatic experiences, how we can not just survive them, but it is possible to even grow from them, which is really unbelievable.
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:09.519
And and many of them you also use the same exact words saying, Now I feel like I'm so capable.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:12.240
If I survive that, I can survive anything.
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:13.519
Then I can do anything.
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:13.920
Yeah.
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:17.839
And so they said I'm now 2.0 version, which is amazing.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:20.240
You've cautioned us not to have assumptions.
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:27.279
And I think so many of us assumed that the hostages, if they were going to return, were gonna come out profoundly damaged.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.519
But you've pushed back against that assumption.
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:39.359
And I stressed, yes, every single one of them went through some type of abuse, whether it's physical, sexual, or psychological, some more than others in different departments.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:42.559
Most people thought that they nobody would survive.
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:57.200
Um, I remember speaking to audiences a year and a half ago, two years ago, and I would say to them, you know, you should know most of the hostages are alive, and there'd be like this audible gasp from the audience, like this gasp of relief, because nobody even believed that they could be alive.
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:04.480
And then if anybody would survive it, then like you said, they'd be broken, 100% PTSD.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:05.920
And those are the assumptions.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:10.000
And so it's all part of a we have a negativity bias.
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:13.599
Again, I have to be very careful to make sure it was hell.
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:16.079
It was it was traumatic, it was horrific.
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:24.160
Uh, but at the same time, 70% of people in the world uh encounter a traumatic event sometime during their during their lives.
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:29.519
And we assume that that trauma is translated directly into PTSD.
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:40.160
But no, the stats for most uh types of PTSD are somewhere around 10% of people who encounter a traumatic event will contract PTSD.
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:42.400
That means that the vast majority will not.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:54.720
And so even with captivity, which is one of the worst, if not the worst, uh type of trauma, the majority of the uh hostages who returned uh will not contract PTSD.
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:55.519
It's amazing.
00:30:55.839 --> 00:31:13.359
Most of them even will have some type of symptomology and different symptoms, and they'll I follow up and I I'm in contact and I treat some of the returnees and and and their families, and I'm in touch with many of them, and I'm in touch with all the clinics that uh that that deal with them and help them.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:29.279
And so uh there are a lot of adjustment issues, and there are different symptoms, and many of them have uh trouble sleeping at night, or they'll have flashbacks, or or or they'll startle response when they hear noise or Arabic or you know, many different uh things.
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:41.759
Um but there are different symptoms, but it's not a full-blown picture of PTSD where somebody uh can't function, and and and so they they they live and adjust with those certain symptoms and they they go on.
00:31:41.920 --> 00:32:04.079
And so there's uh a lot less PTSD than people imagine, A, and B, what's incredible, and this is you know part of what I'm writing about, is that some of them will not contract PTSD and actually will benefit from PTG, which is post-traumatic growth.
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:10.319
Can you share with us one lesson that the returned hostages taught you about survival that you didn't already know?
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:22.240
What I learned from the hostages and from October 7th in general is that I call it you know like Dickens misquoting Dickens and saying it's the worst of times, it's the best of times.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:26.799
And October 7th is the worst thing that's happened to the Jewish people since the Holocaust.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:40.559
Um, but at the same time, we discovered uh the most incredible things about ourselves as uh Israelis and as Jews, and to understand that we have been doing this for thousands of years.
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:44.240
We survive even the worst-case scenarios and worst traumas.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:45.680
That's what we've been doing.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:58.480
And uh what happened in the Holocaust 90 years ago, for good and for bad, it reminds what the hostages went through and it was the worst thing, but at the same time, they also did incredible things to cope, just like Victor Frankel and other survivors.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:03.759
And so it shows us that we have this incredible ability.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:10.480
All human beings have the ability to cope and have so much more strength and resilience than they imagine.
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:16.480
But the Jewish people have even more because of our collective consciousness of thousands of years of doing this.
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:30.720
And so, if and when you encounter a traumatic situation, remember not just these 168 stories of survival, but also thousands of years of our history and know that you can do this also.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:37.839
You can cope with it, even the worst case scenario, and not even just to survive it, but even to thrive.
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.640
Glenn Cohen, thank you so much for spending time with us.
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:53.359
I hope you'll come back when your book is out, and people can learn more about you and your work by visiting your website, which is glenn-cohen.com, G-L-E-N-N-C-O-H-EN.com.
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:54.000
Thank you.
00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:54.960
My pleasure.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:56.400
Thanks for inviting me.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.880
That's a wrap on today's episode of Boundless Insights.
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:07.759
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00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:14.320
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00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:17.360
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00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:20.880
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00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:53.679
Until next time, stay curious, stay informed, and keep the conversation going.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:07.040
What's amazing after my encounter with the hostages who were returned, I would ask them how they coped.
00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:14.480
And it turns out that they did pretty much the exact same things that we teach our commandos in POW training.
00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:21.039
And I'm talking about elderly ladies that could be grandmothers in the late 70s, or a 10-year-old boy.
00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:25.760
They literally did things that we teach in POW training.
00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:30.160
Today is Wednesday, September 30th.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:33.280
This is Boundless Insights, and I'm Aviva Klumpus.
00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:40.479
On October 7th, 2023, 1,200 people were murdered and 251 were taken hostage into Gaza.
00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:43.759
In the days and weeks that followed, Israel was in chaos.
00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:49.759
People were missing and injured, and many families didn't know whether their loved one had been killed or taken captive.
00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:54.479
No one knew when or if the hostages would return or what they were enduring.
00:00:54.799 --> 00:01:01.920
It was amid that chaos that Glenn Cohen, a former chief operational psychologist of the Mossad, was called back into service.
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:09.840
During his three decades in Israel's intelligence service, he helped prepare operatives for extreme situations, including the possibility of capture.
00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:14.640
After October 7th, that expertise was needed on an unprecedented scale.
00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:22.719
Glenn helped develop Israel's protocols for receiving returning hostages and led the team that debriefed the 168 who came home alive.
00:01:22.879 --> 00:01:28.719
They had to balance between caring for released captives and gathering information that could help those still being held.
00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:36.719
Today we're going to talk about what captivity does to the mind, what allows people to survive it, and what he's learned from the hostages who came home.
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:40.159
Let's get into it.
00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:44.319
Glenn Cohen, welcome to Boundless Insights.
00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:46.239
Thank you, Aviva, for inviting me.
00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:48.640
This is an unbelievable privilege for us.
00:01:48.959 --> 00:02:00.480
You have one of the most incredible personal stories on your journey from becoming a young American, as everybody can hear from your accent, to chief psychologist in the Mossad.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:05.359
And this could be the material for a movie, but could you tell it to us?
00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:10.479
I was born and raised in New York City, and my father passed away when I was six.
00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:16.479
And uh Ramaz high school took us in, you know, with a full scholarship.
00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:18.800
And I'd never been to Israel.
00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:22.400
I was uh a basketball player, you know, since my father died.
00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:30.639
Uh I became the Iceman, you know, literally I cut off all my emotions and not to be vulnerable, but I got that nickname also as a basketball player.
00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:40.080
I was on my way to play basketball at uh Brandeis with a scholarship, but I came to Israel for one year in 1982 to be in yeshiva in Jerusalem, and that was the first Lebanon War.
00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:50.400
And so I saw guys my age fighting for the country, and uh I decided that uh I'm not gonna go play ball and drink beer, but I'm gonna also defend the state of Israel.
00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:57.520
And so I joined and uh against all odds, I became uh a pilot, really another guardian angel.
00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:03.120
I have to mention, when I mentioned Ramaz, I also have to say Rabbi Haskell Luxtein, may he live until 120.
00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.479
He's 93 now, and so he was the first guardian angel.
00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:19.599
And in the army, this Air Force doctor decided to see me as a person and not as a number because my profile, uh, instead of the highest being 97, uh, it was 64, with the cutoff for combat being 65.
00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:22.080
So he allowed me in because of my motivation.
00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:24.960
And it's like getting into Harvard with a 2.0 GPA.
00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:33.280
And uh I flew many missions as a search and rescue helicopter pilot and saved many lives in Lebanon uh thanks to uh Dr.
00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:35.520
David Forecast, who allowed me in.
00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:37.280
And that was an amazing experience.
00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:56.560
I was served for seven years, and then I had another privilege of joining the Mossad, and I spent uh 25 years there and um managed to be the psychologist of our operational workers, and I did that for many years, selecting, training, and bringing them to peak performance.
00:03:56.719 --> 00:04:06.800
And I finally left at the age of 50, and I retired at the age of 50 as my last position there was the chief operational psychologist of the of the Mosad.
00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:11.759
So really such a blessed journey, and thanks to all those people who helped me along the way.
00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:23.439
One of the things that I read about was that your father was American, your mother was Swedish, and after your father passed away, your mother took you back to Sweden, but then ultimately brought you back to New York City to fulfill a promise.
00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:24.720
Can you tell us about that?
00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:31.120
Yes, thank you for asking because it's an opportunity for me to give respect to my beloved mother of blessed memory.
00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:35.759
She passed away five years ago, and she really is the she's the secret of my success.
00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:38.720
She gave me and my brother unconditional love.
00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:47.439
And uh, my grandfather, who was a scholar at the Jewish Theological Seminary, asked her to promise that we would get a proper Jewish education.
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:59.680
And he passed away when I was four, my father passed away when I was six, and then my mother was left uh all alone in New York City uh with two young boys, and uh she brought us back to her homeland, to Sweden, to be close to her family.
00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:11.759
And we studied in an American school there, and I'll never forget she took us to Sunday schools to check them out, and I'll never forget her saying, this isn't good enough for Grandpa Boaz.
00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:18.079
He said he wants a proper Jewish education for you, and I promised, and I have to keep my word.
00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:32.240
And she uh brought us back to New York City, to that jungle, and put us uh back in Orthodox schools, and so that you know is the symbol of integrity, keeping a word to a person who's not alive anymore.
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:35.600
And so I have to thank my mother for so much and also for for that.
00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:37.279
Truly an incredible woman.
00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:42.959
The other piece from your background that I found really interesting was that when you joined the army, you wanted to be a pilot.
00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:47.040
But as you said, your physical profile wasn't high enough for it.
00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:49.759
And you were actually assigned to be in the photocopy room.
00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:54.399
And somehow, from the photocopy room, you talk your way into pilot training.
00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:55.360
How'd you do that?
00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:56.879
I dreamt of being a pilot.
00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:00.319
I got to the induction center and they asked me, what do you want to do in the army?
00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:04.720
And I said, uh, you know, I want to be a pilot, I want to be in Sayyat Matkal, and all the best units.
00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:07.680
And they just laughed at me and said, you know, there you're a greenhorn.
00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:15.120
You just got off the boat, and you have to be vetted and screened for a year and a half before that, and uh no chance for that.
00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:16.959
And I said, Well, okay, what's the best I can do?
00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:19.279
And they said, Well, you can volunteer to the paratroopers.
00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:23.759
And so I volunteered to the paratroopers and um I got into a special unit there.
00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:30.079
And but every week I would ask to be transferred to the Air Force, and um, there's a form, it's the same form today, 40 years later.
00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:35.040
It's called form number 55, when you request to change uh to a different unit.
00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:51.839
And um, nothing happened with that after a few months, and I eventually got injured, nothing heroic or dramatic, but I tore a ligament in my ankle, and the doctor of the paratroopers said, That's it, you're no longer a paratrooper, but don't worry, we have a job for you.
00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:58.959
And they sent me down to the Air Force headquarters near Beersheva in Chatzerim Air Base, and they said, You see that building there?
00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:00.639
Yeah, you see that room?
00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:03.199
Yeah, you see in the room there's a photocopying machine?
00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:05.680
I said, Yeah, they said, You're in charge of that.
00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:08.720
That was my job to be a Xerox photocopying clerk.
00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:22.240
And I mean, I was at my wits' end depressed, and I happened to get a letter uh to be invited to the Air Force uh training or selection process for the Air Force Academy.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:27.439
And I called him, I said, Well, you must know that I have a uh 64 profile, not 97.
00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:28.319
That's uh demanding.
00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:29.600
And they said, Well, you know what?
00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:32.079
We you already have a spot, come and we'll see.
00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:38.000
And I went through all the list of the different doctors, and the orthopedist said, No way, this guy will not be combat.
00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:43.920
But the final, final doctor who had to integrate everything, I saw on his uh on the door, his name was Dr.
00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:44.959
David Forecast.
00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:50.800
And he was a British uh new immigrant, and uh we sat down, we started chatting in English.
00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:56.720
He was impressed by my motivation and the glint in my eyes, and he said, You know, do you really want to be a pilot?
00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:58.480
I said, I'm dying to be a pilot.
00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:00.800
And he said, All right, I'll let you be a pilot.
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:05.279
But if you get injured in the infantry training in a flight school, I'm gonna kill you.
00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:08.720
And that's how he opened the door and allowed me uh into a flight school.
00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:12.319
But but it wasn't enough because they said, Wait, wait a second, how tall are you?
00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:13.759
And I said, Well, I'm 6'4.
00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.519
And I said, Hmm, that's a problem because the height limitation is 6'2.
00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:18.879
What are we gonna do?
00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:30.079
They sent me down to a uh to the Air Force Base, the same Air Force Base with a photocog machine, but this time they put me in the the smallest fighter jet and they put a helmet on my head and they said, Okay, now sit straight and we're gonna close the canopy.
00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:35.600
And they close the canopy and and I and I start slouching down and the canopy closes on my head.
00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:36.799
I'm like, no problem.
00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:38.480
I'm fine, nothing to worry about.
00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:39.519
It was just crazy.
00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:44.240
And then it's one thing after another, and and they say, Wait, okay, but how long have you been in the country?
00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:45.279
I said, Two years.
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:49.200
Hmm, that's a problem because it's a sensitive position and you need security clearance.
00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:50.960
You have to be at least five years in the country.
00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:52.080
Hmm, what are we gonna do?
00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:58.639
They sent me to be like cross-interrogated by the security forces and until they finally reach the conclusion that I'm okay and they allow me in.
00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:13.519
So my fellow classmates in in the academy called me the most extraordinary uh soldier in the army because it wasn't enough that you know, I was religious, I was a new immigrant, I was a lone soldier, uh 64 profile, only two years in the country.
00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:15.600
I mean, it was just crazy, but thank God.
00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:18.240
64 profile and six foot four.
00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:18.720
Yeah.
00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:22.559
Tenacity, the first indication that you were ready for the Mossad.
00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:26.879
Tell us before we talk about that, what does a chief psychologist of the Mossad actually do?
00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:39.759
So I was a chief operational psychologist in charge of selecting, training, and working with our operational workers, which are like the Ellie Cohen's uh back in the day.
00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:41.360
The super spies.
00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:54.000
Anybody who's seen uh the Netflix series, uh The Spy, it's uh from the beginning of when going through the selection process to see, you know, to choose one out of a thousand who's got the right stuff.
00:09:54.240 --> 00:10:09.120
And um, so that was uh I was tasked with that, and afterwards to help train them psychologically to really help them adopt and become an operational worker and to be able to live and work uh undercover in enemy territory.
00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:15.039
Imagine the amount of uh stress that a person like that and their family has to deal with.
00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:29.440
So that was my job to bring them up to par to be ready for that psychologically, and while they were active to work with them and their families and their teammates to make sure that they're operating at peak performance despite this amount of stress.
00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:31.919
It's sort of like uh compared to to an astronaut.
00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:34.879
I mean, really, how many get chosen and they're way out there?
00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:41.759
You can be on the dark side of the moon with no communications, hostile environment, slightest mistake, that's it, game over.
00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:45.200
And so it's quite the challenge to say the least.
00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:47.840
And uh we call it uh a parallel universe.
00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:52.320
It's really it's hard to imagine, but it really is uh like a parallel universe.
00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:58.320
Are there qualities that you're looking for in people that will give you an indication of how they will perform under pressure?
00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:06.480
Yeah, well, first of all, you know, the most important uh quality in jobs like this is to be able to perform under pressure.
00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:10.559
And uh one of the indicators is uh your past experience.
00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:21.840
And so if somebody has a history of where he's proven himself to have been in certain situations and he performed well, so that's something that definitely helps.
00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:51.600
Also in combat, you know, there you get trained for in the special forces for a year and a half, and you really never know uh for sure how somebody's going to act under fire, but it's a matter of resilience, and um it's something that I work with uh also, you know, with the the top units in in the army and in all the security forces, and also with you know executive coaching that I do to help people deal with an immense amount of stress, to build resilience.
00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:56.159
I use something I call the the three circles of belief.
00:11:56.320 --> 00:12:02.639
And I would say that uh belief is something that's really important and contributes to resilience.
00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:08.879
But it's not enough just to have the inner circle of belief in yourself, but that will get you a certain distance.
00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:14.399
And that helps when you go through a lot of training and you've done a lot in your life, so you believe in yourself and you have self-efficacy.
00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:29.039
But if you really want to have more resilience and go even further, then you need a second circle of believing in others and the ability to believe in others, to to recruit others, to to work with you, to trust them, whether it's your teammates or your friends and family.
00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:35.519
So that also is directly translated if you're in a military unit or or in a company on any team.
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:45.600
The ability to trust others, believe in them, and to be vulnerable, that actually contributes to resilience in a paradoxical way.
00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:51.440
And the third circle of belief, uh, I call that belief in something greater than yourself.
00:12:51.600 --> 00:13:20.639
And that is something that directly uh contributes to resilience and the ability to perform, because uh if you have that belief in something greater, if it's you know the you know king and country or um you know the the the flag for Israel or or wherever, if it could it could also be in a corporate uh situation if you believe in the product and the impact that you have in making the world a better place, then you will be able to perform uh better and go the extra mile thanks to those three circles of belief.
00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:26.559
Now we don't want you to spill any state secrets, but I do really want to know how you train Jews to keep a secret.
00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:28.960
We convert them.
00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:30.399
Efficient.
00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:30.879
Okay.
00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:39.279
Switching topics, you've said that when you ask people how they would feel about being captured, many instinctively say they would rather die.
00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:44.480
What do you teach people to change about how they're thinking so that they can survive?
00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:53.440
I've been doing this for m decades, uh training commandos and pilots for POW uh situations, if they would fall in captivity.
00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:57.279
I myself went through POW training as a pilot.
00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:02.240
And um my job during that training is to convince them that they that they are capable.
00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:10.799
And at the beginning, most of them, when I ask them what their association is with a captivity, they will say, better off being dead than being in captivity.
00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:14.159
A lot of them will say, I'm saving the last bullet in my magazine for myself.
00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:15.120
That's a classic.
00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:19.440
And by the end of the week, training, what happens is they come to me and they say, you know what, Glenn?
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:20.240
You're right.
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:21.279
You convinced me.
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:30.559
I feel now that I am capable of coping with this even worse case scenario that I thought I would be better off dead, because now I have the tools.
00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:33.679
And so we give them a whole bunch of different tools.
00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:49.120
And what's amazing after my encounter with the hostages who were returned, and I I would ask them how they coped, and it turns out that they did pretty much the exact same things that we teach our commandos in POW training.
00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:55.679
And I'm talking about elderly ladies, they could be grandmothers in the late 70s, or a 10-year-old boy.
00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:10.960
They literally did things that we teach in POW training, and that's incredible because that shows that we all have this inherent resilience and ability to cope much beyond what we imagine.
00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:12.799
And so for me, that's the biggest takeaway.
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.159
People who are listening don't have to think about oh, captivity.
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:22.080
Um, if I fall in captivity, I mean, statistically, not going to happen to 99% of the people out there.
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:40.720
But any situation where uh you're in some type of traumatic situation where you are in a situation where there's no control and uncertainty, uh, the idea and the goal uh is to uh regain a sense of control.
00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:42.559
And yeah, our whole lives are like that.
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:47.840
We we don't really have control, but we try to fool ourselves as if we have this sense of control.
00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:52.879
That's how we get through life, which is also one big exercise in uncertainty.
00:15:53.200 --> 00:16:01.120
But if you really hit something or you know some traumatic situation comes along, you feel like you're stripped of your control.
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:02.399
There's a lot of uncertainty.
00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:04.159
And so the idea is to maintain control.
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:05.679
And there are many different ways to do that.
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:17.039
And one of the ways is to actually have a better sense of orientation as far as time, as far as um your geography, where you are.
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:27.840
And uh many of the hostages really, they obsessively kept track of time, the days, the time of day, uh, in in really ingenious ways, which uh which is incredible.
00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:42.639
Because when we would ask them questions like, okay, when did you shift from the tunnel to the apartment uh in the debriefings that we did, a lot of them would say, Oh, should I, do you want me to say day number 471 or the second of December?
00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:44.559
Just like that, like off the bat.
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:56.320
And they uh really kept track of it, and and I understood as a psychologist that the reason why it was so important to them to keep track of the days was because it was a having a sense of control and a sense of identity.
00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:07.359
Because if I know what day it is, then I know I'll remember what my birthday is, I'll remember the when it's uh Shabbat, when the Jewish holidays are, and that will help me feel connected.
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:16.319
Otherwise, if I lose track of time and and the days, then I'll just be like lost in space, and then I'll feel really like I have no control whatsoever.
00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:25.519
So that was one area of regaining control, and and a lot of them did it in a way uh that we literally use the same term, we call it small wins.
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:29.680
And many of the hostages came back and and and used that term, even though they weren't totally.
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:31.920
They said, Yeah, I I had these small wins.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:37.200
When you know, when something is so overwhelming, you know, how do you eat an elephant bite by bite?
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.119
So that's how that's how they did it.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:43.359
For example, they would a lot of them would say, I just want to get through the day.
00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:45.599
Not to say, okay, how will I get out of this?
00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:46.880
When will I get out of this?
00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:50.079
But let's just, you know, a small goal, just get through the day.
00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:52.640
Every day that they got through, that was a small win.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:18:01.279
But there were also many other types of small wins, like feeling like they were having these wins over their captors, even though they had no control seemingly.
00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:09.759
They weren't in control of what they ate, uh if they would eat uh how much, uh, if they were gonna sleep or go to the bathroom, the most basic things.
00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:18.079
But even in those situations where you have seemingly no control, they found the way to have control and and to even get the better of their captors.
00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:41.519
And for some of them, examples were one, for example, every time he would take a shower, a shower, I mean, you know, uh a bucket of uh brackish water uh once a month, but every time he would finish that that shower, uh, he would be the one to go back and quickly put the shackles back on his legs, because he knew that if he did it, then uh he would leave himself some breathing space.
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:46.079
But if the captor did it, he would do it so tightly that it would it would bite into his skin.
00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:49.920
And so every time he managed to do that, for him, that was a win.
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.640
So, you know, it it all depends on your perspective.
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:56.640
And for for us, if we would see that, we'd be, oh my God, this is terrible, poor baby.
00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.240
But in his his perspective, he felt like a winner.
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:09.599
And so it just shows no matter what the situation is, how bad it is, you can always find some sense of control and feel like you are actually winning.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:15.519
You were the first mental health professional designated to meet with the hostages when they came back from Gaza.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:27.039
And there's this tension because these are people that need care and you have to be sensitive to their needs, and they have critical information that could help on the battlefield or help to save the lives of other hostages.
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:29.200
How did you approach that balance?
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:43.279
So, first of all, just for the record, I I was the first mental health professional to meet the first hostages who came out, and then I wrote the protocol, which uh ended up being very elaborate as far as how to receive them.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.279
And I met with them in the capacity of the intelligence debriefing.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:55.119
There were many other uh mental health professionals who were involved at the hospital and who also from the army when they first crossed.
00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:04.720
We met them within the first hour or so of their return in order to get time-sensitive, critical, life-saving intelligence about the other hostages.
00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.440
And like you said, there were two contradictory goals.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:19.440
But that was uh the main thing that I wrote in the protocol that if there is a conflict of interest between these, then the hostages' well-being is more important.
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:20.720
Takes precedence.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:21.200
Yeah.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:35.759
And that was something I remembered the historical stories of the POWs who came back from Yom Kippur in in 73, and they described their biggest trauma not being in captivity, but actually the way they were treated when they returned.
00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:40.480
And they were locked up in a compound in Zichhroniaco for two weeks and interrogated.
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:50.880
And so that was my compass to make sure that we wouldn't repeat that mistake and to make sure that the hostages' well-being was the most important.
00:20:51.039 --> 00:21:01.519
And so there were quite a few situations like that where we felt that the uh the returnee either didn't want to share or just wasn't uh prepared to share.
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:11.279
And uh so we just waited patiently, and some of them were even angry and and didn't want to speak to us because we represented the security apparatus that wasn't there.
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:17.359
And part of the protocol, I made sure that the the Shinbet interrogator would actually open up with an apology.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:27.599
And so part of it was just giving them the legitimacy to feel that and to express that, and uh, if they needed to take their time, we let them take their time.
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:32.960
Um, and uh there were some who we waited days uh until they would uh really open up.
00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:41.119
But at the end, you know, they they all opened up and shared because they realized that this is actually also for their well being.
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:49.359
And and that's actually the thing I'm I'm most happy about and proud about because uh it wasn't just uh you know for intelligence.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:59.759
They described it as part of their healing process for them to be able to actually help their fellow brothers and sisters and friends who were back in captivity and to have.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:07.359
An impact that gave them an incredible sense of agency and self-efficacy, and that became part of their healing process.
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:13.680
Especially for those first hostages that came out, was there a concern that they might have been booby-trapped or bugged?
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:29.359
Well, I mean, the first meeting with the on October 20th, uh, when I met the first two hostages, I mean, that was really uh incredible because what you see on TV afterwards and the red carpet they got, that's not how it all started.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:35.680
In the beginning, and I and I have to give the context because October 20th is 13 days into the war, complete chaos.
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:40.640
There's still 55 people missing, unaccounted for.
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:42.720
And so complete chaos.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:48.480
And Hamas announces that they're releasing two hostages unilaterally with no deal.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:58.799
And so there was a lot of suspicion, and uh they sent uh the toughest fighting force to meet the Red Cross ambulance, and they were ready for a firefight.
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:14.079
And um, luckily at the last minute, after they decided to send a Shinbet interrogator, they said, you know what, maybe actually my commander of the idea of hostage negotiation unit, which is my reserve duty, he convinced them that it's a good idea to send a psychologist there.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.920
And so I was sent at the last minute.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:21.839
But the fighters were ready for a firefight, and uh they thought maybe the Hamas terrorists would come out of the ambulance.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:34.880
And when Judith and Nali Ranan came out of the ambulance, they they were still a bit suspicious and um and they didn't drop their guard uh or their guns, and they were worried that maybe they might even be booby-trapped.
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:50.079
That was the initial uh thinking, and uh uh we had to work uh hard to to soften that uh and part of it was uh for us to to get our bearings and you know the the entire country was just uh traumatized, of course.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.640
And uh so we came a long way.
00:23:52.960 --> 00:24:00.319
What you see today in on TV, or you know, the last releases in October 25, that's not how it all started.
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:11.920
There's an aspect of them coming home that I've often wondered about, which is the hostages come home and discover that some of the most traumatic moments of their lives have become these images seen around the world.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:29.359
Now, I know you're not going to speak about specific hostages, but for me, some of the images that have become steered in my mind from October 7th are, for example, Nama being pulled in and out of the Jeep in the gray sweatpants with the bloody pants, or Eviatar David, a skeletal man being forced to dig his own graves.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:39.920
We shared those images all over the world when they were hostages as part of the campaign to try to free them, to show the brutality, to try to raise awareness and get people to care about them as human beings.
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:45.200
But then you come home and you discover that worst moment of your life has been seen by everybody.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:51.039
Can you talk to me about what it does to the trauma or to the healing or if there's anything that we should be sensitive about?
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:59.440
First of all, I think uh we need to remember that uh in those days there were two conflicting agendas, which people were not really aware of.
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:04.319
The the main agenda was to cry out to the world and to show them how horrific it was.
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:24.720
But a lot of people didn't realize that there's a second agenda, which is the well-being of the hostages and their families, and frankly, the our national and individual resilience, because any time any of us were exposed to all these images, it to uh took a toll on our resilience.
00:25:24.880 --> 00:26:18.400
And it was a very tricky balance, and you know, because many people weren't sleeping at night, you know, on the one hand, we shouldn't have been sleeping too well because uh we should be fighting to bring them back, but uh on the other hand, you need to sleep a little bit, and so I think part of that is to realize that uh we need to be sensitive uh also about their stories and to remember that because we identify with them, and uh the hostages are such a symbol that every Jew around the world felt that uh a part of them was also in captivity, which is which is beautiful, and that's part of the uh the saying that you know, and and we look out for each other, but we also have to be very careful not to feel a sense of ownership or entitlement and to feel as if those hostages are are really me or my family members, and uh not to cross that line.
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:39.680
So, and also not to assume all these things that you know there's so many things that people just uh assume and project upon the hostages and uh it when they were there and what they went through, um, and also when they return, assuming and um expecting that they should be reacting uh in a certain way.
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:50.799
And so it's really important that we take a step back and approach it with more with question marks and not with exclamation points and to to give them credit.
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:57.839
You know, if you mentioned Aviatar David, I I interviewed him on one of Israel's leading TV programs, Uvda.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:11.200
I didn't interview him, but actually they broadcasted a conversation be between us, and I asked him a question about how other hostages mentioned that they wouldn't erase that experience.
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:13.920
And uh I asked him, you know, what he thought about that.
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:17.359
It was unrehearsed and I had no idea how he was going to answer.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:22.559
And uh he said, Yeah, I I I agree with that, uh, which is kind of shocking for people to hear.
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:28.960
Given the choice of being taken hostage or not, he's saying that he would choose for the experience to have happened to him?
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:53.680
He said he wouldn't erase it, and many, many hostages said almost the same exact thing that I would ask them if you could turn the clock back to the 6th of October and decide not to go to the kibbutz for Synchatara or not to buy the ticket to the Nova Festival and save yourself 500 days in captivity or 738 days in captivity, what would you do?
00:27:54.240 --> 00:28:01.839
And quite a few of them, I won't say names, but quite a few of them said the exact same words, I wouldn't change a thing.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:03.039
That's unbelievable.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:12.799
Which is unbelievable, I know, and um their explanation is that of course if they could save the 1200 lives, they they would.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:38.079
But their personal suffering, what they went through in captivity, as hellish as it was, and even though people would assume that they'd be better off dead than being in that situation, they were there, it was hell, but they went to hell and came back, they survived it, and not only did they survive it, um, but they learned things about themselves that are irreplaceable.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:29:05.279
And they learned things about their resilience, and they feel that in many ways they they actually grew from this experience, even though it was super traumatic and and horrific, which is actually it's not just about captivity, and that's what I'm writing my book about about post-traumatic growth and all different types of traumatic experiences, how we can not just survive them, but it is possible to even grow from them, which is really unbelievable.
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:09.519
And and many of them you also use the same exact words saying, Now I feel like I'm so capable.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:12.240
If I survive that, I can survive anything.
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:13.519
Then I can do anything.
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:13.920
Yeah.
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:17.839
And so they said I'm now 2.0 version, which is amazing.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:20.240
You've cautioned us not to have assumptions.
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:27.279
And I think so many of us assumed that the hostages, if they were going to return, were gonna come out profoundly damaged.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.519
But you've pushed back against that assumption.
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:39.359
And I stressed, yes, every single one of them went through some type of abuse, whether it's physical, sexual, or psychological, some more than others in different departments.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:42.559
Most people thought that they nobody would survive.
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:57.200
Um, I remember speaking to audiences a year and a half ago, two years ago, and I would say to them, you know, you should know most of the hostages are alive, and there'd be like this audible gasp from the audience, like this gasp of relief, because nobody even believed that they could be alive.
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:04.480
And then if anybody would survive it, then like you said, they'd be broken, 100% PTSD.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:05.920
And those are the assumptions.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:10.000
And so it's all part of a we have a negativity bias.
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:13.599
Again, I have to be very careful to make sure it was hell.
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:16.079
It was it was traumatic, it was horrific.
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:24.160
Uh, but at the same time, 70% of people in the world uh encounter a traumatic event sometime during their during their lives.
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:29.519
And we assume that that trauma is translated directly into PTSD.
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:40.160
But no, the stats for most uh types of PTSD are somewhere around 10% of people who encounter a traumatic event will contract PTSD.
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:42.400
That means that the vast majority will not.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:54.720
And so even with captivity, which is one of the worst, if not the worst, uh type of trauma, the majority of the uh hostages who returned uh will not contract PTSD.
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:55.519
It's amazing.
00:30:55.839 --> 00:31:13.359
Most of them even will have some type of symptomology and different symptoms, and they'll I follow up and I I'm in contact and I treat some of the returnees and and and their families, and I'm in touch with many of them, and I'm in touch with all the clinics that uh that that deal with them and help them.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:29.279
And so uh there are a lot of adjustment issues, and there are different symptoms, and many of them have uh trouble sleeping at night, or they'll have flashbacks, or or or they'll startle response when they hear noise or Arabic or you know, many different uh things.
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:41.759
Um but there are different symptoms, but it's not a full-blown picture of PTSD where somebody uh can't function, and and and so they they they live and adjust with those certain symptoms and they they go on.
00:31:41.920 --> 00:32:04.079
And so there's uh a lot less PTSD than people imagine, A, and B, what's incredible, and this is you know part of what I'm writing about, is that some of them will not contract PTSD and actually will benefit from PTG, which is post-traumatic growth.
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:10.319
Can you share with us one lesson that the returned hostages taught you about survival that you didn't already know?
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:22.240
What I learned from the hostages and from October 7th in general is that I call it you know like Dickens misquoting Dickens and saying it's the worst of times, it's the best of times.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:26.799
And October 7th is the worst thing that's happened to the Jewish people since the Holocaust.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:40.559
Um, but at the same time, we discovered uh the most incredible things about ourselves as uh Israelis and as Jews, and to understand that we have been doing this for thousands of years.
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:44.240
We survive even the worst-case scenarios and worst traumas.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:45.680
That's what we've been doing.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:58.480
And uh what happened in the Holocaust 90 years ago, for good and for bad, it reminds what the hostages went through and it was the worst thing, but at the same time, they also did incredible things to cope, just like Victor Frankel and other survivors.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:03.759
And so it shows us that we have this incredible ability.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:10.480
All human beings have the ability to cope and have so much more strength and resilience than they imagine.
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:16.480
But the Jewish people have even more because of our collective consciousness of thousands of years of doing this.
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:30.720
And so, if and when you encounter a traumatic situation, remember not just these 168 stories of survival, but also thousands of years of our history and know that you can do this also.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:37.839
You can cope with it, even the worst case scenario, and not even just to survive it, but even to thrive.
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.640
Glenn Cohen, thank you so much for spending time with us.
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:53.359
I hope you'll come back when your book is out, and people can learn more about you and your work by visiting your website, which is glenn-cohen.com, G-L-E-N-N-C-O-H-EN.com.
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:54.000
Thank you.
00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:54.960
My pleasure.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:56.400
Thanks for inviting me.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.880
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00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:07.759
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