Paula Chiocchi: I'm your host, Paula Chiocchi So everyone is talking about data, AI, and content creation. But having access to more data doesn't automatically create better marketing. The real advantage comes from knowing how to use that information to create content that resonates, influences buyers, and delivers measurable business results. Today we're joined by Andrew Schulkind from Andy Andigo New Media. I hope I said that right. To explore why data is only as good as what you do with it and how marketers can transform audience insights into content that actually performs. Welcome, Andrew. Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: Paula, really nice to be here and thanks for the introduction.
Paula Chiocchi: Everybody's talking about content and they're and I think a lot of people don't even know. out of balance between AI and we're gonna dig into that a little bit today. So so Andrew, your topic is data's only as good as what you do with it. What does that statement mean to you and why do you think so many markers miss that point?
Andrew Schulkind: data people fall back on data, which is great. We love when our clients have data dashboards set up when they have marketing metrics in mind. But you know, you can run legion all day, but unless is you know, unless you're let's say a one touch immediate conversion kind of business, there needs to be follow up. And that follow up can't just be, hey, you're just checking in because I I th those kinds of messages really kind of make me crazy. Because
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: you might as well just leave it a voicemail or send a an email saying, hey, how about writing me a check? Because that's all that
Paula Chiocchi: Ha ha.
Andrew Schulkind: you're that the person on the other end that's all they're hearing, because there's nothing in it for them. You've offered
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: nothing of value to them. So you have to focus on the content that is going to make that data useful. So data comes in all sorts of different shapes and forms. hopefully it is telling you a bit about who your prospect is, what they're interested in. and what their concerns are, what what the problem is they're trying to solve, you know, all the, you know, sort of basic marketing profile information that we want. Your content should then be based on what those answers are. That that's the whole idea of relevance, right? That's a a word that I'll work just throw around quite a bit. And that's what we want to see. Make sure that what you're sending back to them is relevant to their concerns, what their interests are, their budget perhaps, you know, what they've tried in the past, anything you've learned about them.
Paula Chiocchi: Well, and I think do you think a lot of people are missing the mark on that?
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, they are. I I think i it's easy to on one end, you know, the the the extreme is th those just checking in messages which really don't add anything at all to the conversation. On the other end are things that are so close to to really being there, right? like how many times have you gotten an email that says dear and then in curly brackets, first name, right? It's supposed to say dear Paula. Right.
Paula Chiocchi: my god. I can't believe it when that happens. Right. Right. Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: It's supposed to say dear Paula or dear Andrew and something went wrong. And that kind of I mean that's a really egregious example, but that kind of I don't know, templated personalization has kind of trained people to I I I hate to say this because it's so depressing, but distrust warmth from strangers. Right? You're a stranger and now you're being che you know, chummy and you know and friendly. And they'd come to distrust that. so rather than Having a lot of sort of triggers based on, well, it's been two days since I last reached out to them, or it's been two weeks, or whatever that may be. You should have fewer touch points, sharper touch points, and touch points that are triggered by something that has actually changed, or something that you can reasonably infer based on you know a prior interaction. That's really what we'd like to see. And you know, folks get pretty close to that, but then they fall down because it's It is just, you know, it is clearly, it's been a week since y I you've heard from me, so I'm gonna I'm gonna reach out again.
Paula Chiocchi: So it makes it a little bit more rote versus, I know they were on this page on the website and they were viewing X, Y, and Z, or is that one of the things you're thinking about or
Andrew Schulkind: yeah, I mean I think that there are well there's there there's a whole a spectrum
Paula Chiocchi: Right.
Andrew Schulkind: of possibilities there, but absolutely if you're running a a CRM that's sophisticated enough so that it's tying together your email marketing with what you know about a a profile cookie based or or any other way. yeah, you absolutely wanna make sure that if they're interacting with different kinds of with certain kinds of content, then that's gonna be reflected in the next piece that that they get. Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: Yep, focus on that. Yeah, instead of the generic. So
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: so speaking of content, before writing a a single blog or an email or a white paper or a LinkedIn post, what data should marketers be looking at first?
Andrew Schulkind: That's an interesting question. and I'll hedge a little by saying it depends,
Paula Chiocchi: Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: everybody's least favorite answer. but
Paula Chiocchi: Exactly.
Andrew Schulkind: it does depend a little bit on what that what kind of content you're creating and what your expectation is, right? So there are different kinds of content and they although they they span the the the length of your marketing funnel, some of them are are more attuned to the top of the funnel versus middle of the funnel versus you know, very very close to its decision making. So what you should be thinking about there. really depends on where your folks are in the funnel and what you're hoping their next step is going to be, right? So it is sort of that dual-edged, you know, two two sides of the same coin, I guess, where you want to make sure you understand where their head is at, where they are in the process, and by the same token, what you're hoping to get out of this piece of content. What what action are you asking or you hoping they will take?
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah, we d we do a lot of email acquisition marketing as you know, and most of the clients don't think about that. You know, they just they just want to get that email out and get that sale, you know. And and then and then even if they have really great open and click through race and nobody did anything, it's like they're wondering why, you know.
Andrew Schulkind: There's a mismatch there, yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: Is an expansion, yeah. So so how can marketers use audience data to better understand what buyers actually care about instead of just making assumptions?
Andrew Schulkind: Say say that again? I missed the beginning of the
Paula Chiocchi: So so how can marketers use audience data for to better
Andrew Schulkind: yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: understand what buyers actually care about instead of just making assumptions?
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, Hopefully they're going to be telling you based on if you've been strategic enough in the kinds of content that you've created, they will begin to tell you. one of the tools that we ask clients to use is a multi-step email cadence. So and I I certainly didn't invent this. I wish I could remember who we kind of magpied this from. but you know, a an eight-step email cadence isn't uncommon where the first seven steps are going To you're going to create them in a way that people are going to interact with them or not, and the next email is going to be based on what the interaction was. And over the course of that, you'll find out whether they are in the mindset of you know, sort of a fear-based decision, they're trying to stop something from happening, or an aspirational based based decision where there is some goal that they want to reach. and there are a couple of different aspects to that before the the the last email in the series is hey we've got this service for you or this product for you that we think can is going to help exactly that and you're tailoring it along the way so that y it's an eight email sequence but you've got a lot more versions of the emails to to send based on on what they're they're
Paula Chiocchi: The action.
Andrew Schulkind: on their actions. So that's the best way. But y y yeah no that's
Paula Chiocchi: That's a lot, eight eight sequins. I don't think I've
Andrew Schulkind: that's been very effective. i i i it's certainly possible to shorten that, though.
Paula Chiocchi: Typically what we see is people want typ typically what we see is they want one or two and they don't understand why it didn't work. Right. So Yeah,
Andrew Schulkind: I think I think you may know.
Paula Chiocchi: yeah. So is that's that's how you approach with your clients then is is is is a is a eight touch sequence. Wow. Okay, that's great.
Andrew Schulkind: In indeed. you know, that's that's what we have found to work best. Not all of our clients want to commit
Paula Chiocchi: It worked. Awesome.
Andrew Schulkind: to that or want to create that that much content, which I understand, but I you know, you're also asking you're trying to achieve more than you can with what you're feeding into it. It's not the data alone and it's not just one or two pieces of content. You've gotta make that long term effort to create the touch points that'll let you establish the trust so that a they'll be you know, you'll be more open to the idea of of email starting dear Paula and you'll also be more forgiving of an email that starts dear open bracket first name, close bracket bracket. Which happens.
Paula Chiocchi: Dear name. Yeah, I find after sometimes after the third e in and and we're in the business, but I find sometimes after like the third email like you know I start paying attention a little bit more, you know, 'cause I'm seeing the name again and you talked about trust earlier. So it's that eight c cadence sequence probably helps build and bring you into that trust level up, I would think. So
Andrew Schulkind: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's that's its primary primary goal. Although again that the two sided coin I I mentioned earlier, you're giving them something, but at the same time, they're giving you something back, which is the information about what they're really interested in and what's motivating their their inquiry.
Paula Chiocchi: So many companies produce a tremendous amount of content. I mean we we all know that, we're all bombarded every day. But in your opinion, what separates content that genuinely influences buying decisions from content that simply just fills up a publishing calendar?
Andrew Schulkind: the on the one hand it's the the answer is super simple. It is relevance, right? You you've got the right content and run for fun of the right people at the right time. the longer answer, of course, is consistency. You just hit on you know, this idea, after the third email or so I'm gonna start paying attention to this name. It's a little familiar to me and it sorta caught my interest earlier. You know, that that matters, that consistency showing up regularly, because we all know that If the problem isn't right here right now, I'm liable, your your prospect is liable to push off any decision because they do have a problem that is right here, right now, that they they've got to solve. So staying top of mind in a way that isn't annoying and that does provide value, that's the difference. So content that is relevant and provides value to your prospects is the kind of content that will continue to show up in their inbox and be consumed or on the website or social media feed or wherever it is you're publishing.
Paula Chiocchi: And not annoying key. I totally agree with you. Yeah, we we had a client says one time, you know, you guys who sent to us like a we have a little newsletter that we publish every month. I said, you know, if I wasn't getting that every month, I probably wouldn't have had you on my list to come back for s data for a campaign. You know, 'cause you just forget, you know. forget you exist. So
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, that's absolutely right. Or may not know that you do some s you know slightly related task you know service.
Paula Chiocchi: So everybody talks about AI, you and talking about it earlier. AI has dramatically increased the amount of content being produced. And has it made effective content writing easier or simply made medioc mediocre content more common in your opinion?
Andrew Schulkind: I'm tr trying to not to well I I won't censor myself because mediocre content
Paula Chiocchi: No.
Andrew Schulkind: is not easier. It's really bad content, quite honestly. Used well a AI ha is a is a real boon to just about any marketer in in a a myriad of ways. And I think that there is way too much I mean, LinkedIn i is a really tough place to be right now because every third or fourth post is about AI. I I I can tell you using AI, I don't like AI, I'm not gonna consume your content because it's AI and like and the the truth of the matter is there's I think it is a lot less obvious When AI, at least reasonable A, you know, reasonably written material is AI because there are Hemingways among us and there are people who really don't write well at all. And they're all out there on LinkedIn. And,
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: you know, some of them recognize may even recognize, hey, I'm not really great at writing, but I don't have anyone else who can do it, so I don't have any choice. This is how I'm gonna do it. I don't have the budget, I don't have the time, whatever the case may be. and that's fine. I think that getting hung up on whether something is or is not AI generated is less important than does it speak to you? Does it pique your interest?
Paula Chiocchi: That's how I view it.
Andrew Schulkind: Does it
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: say, hey, this is a company I'm interested in learning more about or that I might consider working with? In that case, you know, AI is great. And I also we were talking earlier how we, for liability reasons, we don't use AI to write for any of our clients. I do use AI as an editing partner and as in in a a lot of ways that aren't actual putting words down on paper. and one of the biggest ones is there are c I have a couple of series going. on LinkedIn two, that that
Paula Chiocchi: Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: I write every week. And v early this year I realized that I had published almost the I an identical piece two weeks apart in the same series. And it wasn't
Paula Chiocchi: Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: I I didn't just copy it and paste it. I forgot to take the notes out of my notes file and that I had done it. And so I shared the same anecdote and wrote it slightly differently and it was embarrassing, but you know, it happened. And I've finally got Claude to pay attention to what I was doing and how to do it and got and figured out myself how to create a project so that it would remember all this and gave it it already had a lot of information about how I like to write and how I'm I'm trying to write. And so every week We work together and say, Hey, let's work on this week's this not that post and here's my idea and here's what I've written and said and it'll tell me this is great, it's awfully close to something you published in February, but as
Paula Chiocchi: Nice.
Andrew Schulkind: long as you keep this in mind you can change that. It is a fantastic editorial partner. And if more people used it like that rather than on trying to, you know, say, Hey, AI, what should I write this week or you know, what should I write? Yeah, it so
Paula Chiocchi: That's a great idea though. Yeah. As much as as much content as you write, you you can't remember all of it, everything you did, right? Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah I wish I could. That would be fantastic. But yeah, no, it's it's it's a it is a really great tool and I I wish people would understand I mean, there are certainly, you know, societal implications and whether we're all gonna be, you know, chained in a basement somewhere in a couple of years. Subservient to our AI overlords is I you know, topic for another podcast, but
Paula Chiocchi: That we were another another one, but I hope we're not, right?
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, me too. But I you know, I I think all the all the hand wringing and pearl clutching about AI slop is there's plenty of it out there, but it's easy to ignore. And if you're not sure then just either use it or don't and and move on.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah. So I think we touched on a little bit earlier, we talked about name and brackets, so we're talking about personalization, right? So we know I think you and I both know it's important, but can mark marketers material it realistically create personalized content at scale without sacrificing the quality?
Andrew Schulkind: That is one of those sixty-four dollar questions, right? I I sixty four million dollar. it
Paula Chiocchi: Must be sixty four thousand dollars.
Andrew Schulkind: is I I I think there there is It is difficult to do in the middle, I will say. you know, scale is one of those things where if you are a very hands-on consultant, we're working with a client now, we is smaller than we usually do, who she is a s a business strategist and works with founders who are looking to figure out what's next. And it's fascinating to work with her in part because she wants two or three new clients a year. That's it. She her her her her Schedule is pretty full already, and she knows occasionally people graduate out, they've sold their business because that was what then
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: right? Makes great sense for them. So for her, scale isn't an issue. And it is just about creating great content, knowing your audience really well, and being able to adapt that just a little sometimes to speak to the person you're now trying to reach. you know, which is there are other things that are are a little bit more general, right? Her website, you don't know who's gonna show up on your website and It has to be broad enough to to capture their interest. but And and at the other end of the of the spectrum, you know, really big businesses, there's a different expectation. And you don't have to call me by name and know my name to get my attention, but you do have to know a lot of the things we've been talking about earlier, what my interests are, where where my pain points are, you know, sort of classic marketing stuff. And I think that the that's easier for them than it is for those of us who in the are in the middle where I want more than two or three new clients a year. not a lot more than that, but what I what I'm doing to get that is i th it's harder to scale, I'll say, without true personalization. And there is some expectation that, well, there are companies like mine that are much larger that can deliver different things, the different price point, but you know, there's a whole different kind of world out there. And there are some clients, prospects, who are a twixt and between. You know, th they could go either way and still get great value from For someone much bigger. And that's there's a real challenge there. So it's a it's a really great question, and I don't think I've answered it, but I think the the challenge is for those of us in the middle to find a way to Be genuine in how we are personalizing and not just relying on I know your first name. In fact, one of the things, not to make this too long an answer, but iterative information gathering is something that you can set your website up to do so that if someone consumes a piece of content and then they click through on to the next thing, you now can ask perhaps the first thing was free, ungated. They could just go get it. Now maybe you ask them for their email address. And once you've got that, if they consume another piece of content that makes it clear that they are a business in a certain industry or a business of a certain size or there's some other determining factor, you can then add that to the profile because now you you ask for that information, add it to their profile, and that changes the information, the content that you you serve to them. So there are ways to do it. As I said, and took too long to say, it is it is tricky. in the middle than it is at either end of the spectrum.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah, I I agree with you and in and in the begin in the in the beginning, you know, and we had a client once, very well well worldwide recognized brand, and we kept telling you're not offering them anything, you're just trying to gather all this information and they insisted on doing that, we had ten thousand people go to the landing page and bail.
Andrew Schulkind: Wow. That's heartbreaking.
Paula Chiocchi: Because because they didn't offer anything and they wouldn't listen to us, you know. And and y y y especially now with the with the age range of the B B to B buyer, I think the latest statistic I saw is seventy two percent are millennials. They're not giving anything out unless you give it to you know, it's just not gonna happen, you know. So
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah. Yeah, different world. Absolutely different world.
Paula Chiocchi: It is a different world. And they don't really want to talk to anybody. You know, they want to kinda get as much
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: as they can online and and make get close to that decision. Unless it's a big buying group and a major corporation, but you know.
Andrew Schulkind: The other you know, a coda to that is that companies that ask for all that much information, I I I don't have a percentage, I don't know, but our experience has been a lot of them never use that information. They don't even know why they're collecting it. It's just like Yeah, it's like you've you've you've turned off Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: It's even worse. That's even worse.
Andrew Schulkind: And turned off so many people, lost them just for
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: information that was never going to win you anything.
Paula Chiocchi: Yep. So let's talk about measurement. Once content is published, what tells you it's actually working?
Andrew Schulkind: Here I th the most important thing we try and get across to our clients is snapshots are are are nice to look at, but not nearly as important as moving pictures. So you can look at what you know your first day data is or what happened with this piece of content over a ninety day period, which is a a moving picture of sorts, but it's a lot better to look at it in context with everything else. What how does it compare to other content you've created? How does it compare to other content on this topic or aimed at this person or published in on on this channel. we really try and get folks to to see context because that is a lot more illuminating you know, than than anything else. A four percent open rate, maybe you're thrilled with that, but maybe you're used to a twenty five percent open rate. I mean
Paula Chiocchi: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Andrew Schulkind: That's wonderful you are. Very few of us are. But really understanding that is is key, I think, to to making sure that you're you're looking at your data and getting insights out of it, not just looking at data.
Paula Chiocchi: Is there any specific tools that y you use or is it mostly done through the CRM platform?
Andrew Schulkind: Our clients drive that more than we do. I mean there are some tools that
Paula Chiocchi: Okay, right.
Andrew Schulkind: were like, hey, that we don't really love this tool. we'd prefer not to use it. But we're comfortable using free tools like Google Analytics to paid tools.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: you know, there are a lot of CRMs that do have really great content tracking information, you know, for the website and other platforms all integrated. And the more integrated you can get that information, the better off you are. Just I think the the caveat there is a lot of CRMs are very robust, I think to put it in a positive term. but that means that, you know, like Google Analytics, which is not a CRM of course, but it's just a fire hose of information. And unless you can figure out how to create a dashboard that gives you information that you can you can absorb, you're not gonna get very much out of it, even though it's just
Paula Chiocchi: Mm. Yeah, yeah. What yeah, what what good is it if if you don't know that? Yeah, totally agree with you on that one. so, you know, markers you mentioned earlier, celebrate impressions and clicks. What do you suggest they do to look deeper?
Andrew Schulkind: so the data, you know, for us, we talk about data in two different ways. There are process metrics and there are business metrics. And process metrics, we don't discount their importance, you know, the importance of likes and clicks and follows or you know, whatever it is. but if you're in a conversation with anyone who has you know profit and loss responsibility for a business or a division, they are not going to be impressed if you tell them, you know, about
Paula Chiocchi: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Schulkind: your process metrics. They want to know about business metrics. And so I to me it's trying to find those the connections between them, because process metrics can often be leading indicators, where business metrics can often be trailing indicators. Trying to find those connections. so that you're able to make the case that, hey, when we see this happen with website traffic, we are generally able to predict that our our lead gen numbers go up or lead quality scores go up or whatever the case may be. Trying to tease that out of out of the information that you've got is critically important. It can't just be, you know, unless you're a publisher who is getting paid by advertisers for the number of impressions your content
Paula Chiocchi: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Schulkind: gets, no one really cares about the number of impressions. Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah, I years ago I had somebody say, Well, we all we cared about was a four percent open rate And I was like, Well, okay, but what if you get a one percent open rate but you have double the sales? To the four percent. And they kinda looked at me like they didn't know what I was talking about. I always said, Yeah, you could have a hundred percent open rate, but if nothing no, nothing's happening, that you know, d you didn't tr generate the lead or the sale, it doesn't matter. You know, it's also the qual quality of of of those people that open and click and go th go through to the to finish the process. But you know, some people people got that was a while back, people have gotten better better than that.
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, people do generally have a better sense of
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah, i i it's evolved for sure. That's relative to email marketing, but can you share an example where performance data completely changed to content strategy?
Andrew Schulkind: Performance data completely changed the content strategy. I would I'm trying to think of one that is that is more specific than this, but the one that comes to mind is working with a a client, a mission driven business, which is you know, someone that though that's a lot of the folks we work with are mission driven businesses. and the content they were putting out was trying to serve both sides of their of their double bottom line business, so to speak. So they kept putting stuff out that was split between what the the the investment side of the of the business was sort of earning and what the impact side was doing. Were they having an impact yet? Were they actually making money for their investors? Yes. But splitting that up so that they were certainly times where you could have content that addressed both, it's important to to bring the two together. But performance increased really radically when we honed in on one or the other. And sometimes what surprised us was that they were in Instances where folks we thought would be interested in just the performance side, you know, how the business was doing, really love the impact statements. And you know, it shows how closely together the two are tied, but I think that performance data surprises us a little because it it really did drive home this truism that people have one thing in mind and one thing in mind only. If you try and tell them two things, you're only gonna think about one thing. And I I think that that's a a a good reminder to. keep very tightly focused in most of your your content.
Paula Chiocchi: Do you think there was potentially different type of audience that focused on one versus versus versus the other?
Andrew Schulkind: yeah, absolutely. And and we knew those two audience existed.
Paula Chiocchi: Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: we just thought, well, hey, we want to serve both of them all the time and it turns out, well, you can, you just you can't do it together necessarily.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah. Yeah. That that and that's a big lesson to learn. Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well it's one that yeah, it took some convincing and and
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: you know, actually having to do the tests, you know, to say, All right, let's try this for a month and see how what happens with our performance.
Paula Chiocchi: So how do you think about a piece of content that sh should it be improved or abandoned altogether when you're putting out content? How do you make that decision?
Andrew Schulkind: Try not to make snap decisions. if something just doesn't I mean there are certain things that I I think you should absolutely have hard and fast rules. If it is you aren't sure what the goal is, what you're you're expecting a client to do after they've consumed this piece of content, probably not worth publishing. If it does not sound like your brand voice, you should rethink what you're what you're doing with that piece of content. beyond rules like that and there are a handful of others, I would say be open to experimenting because sometimes you're very much surprised by what resonates with an audience and what not just resonates but resonates in a way that is productive, right? That they're they're interested in and that that then that highlights your expertise in in in some ways and gets them to take action. there are a lot of surprises there. So keep an open mind, but do have high standards for quality writing, tone of writing, and understanding where it's fitting in. If it if it does not have a clear purpose in an overall marketing schedule you know content ed editorial calendar then don't publish it.
Paula Chiocchi: Makes sense to me. So how closely do you think content creators and analysts should work together?
Andrew Schulkind: as close as possible. I mean I I really, you know, I think that
Paula Chiocchi: Do you find they resonate together or do you do you
Andrew Schulkind: I I think it depends on it I I I can only speak to, you know, sort of my my personal experience that it's very much personality driven, right? You know, that there are folks that are open to the idea that they aren't creating art, that there is, you know, you are creating you are being creative in service of commerce, and that is different than being an artist, right? We're not talking about the great American novel here or, you know, paintings that are gonna hang in a in a museum. It
Paula Chiocchi: In the
Andrew Schulkind: is it's graphic design and it is copyrighted. writing and keeping that in mind you should all those creative folks ought to be absolutely thrilled to be talking to analysts, folks with data to share. That's that's how you can measure how how effective your work is.
Paula Chiocchi: how effective you're all around. So where do you think intent data, engagement data and customer feedback fit into the content creation process, given people are using looking at in intent data?
Andrew Schulkind: I I think that that is an excellent example of what we're just talking about, that that's data that you sh as as someone who's managing a marketing program, as well as someone who is creating the content for that program should be paying attention to because your your prospects are telling you what they're interested in. Your prospects are telling you what resonates with them, what they're paying attention to and what they're not. And your content should absolutely reflect that. I I think that again And you know, getting back to the idea of snapshots being a little bit dangerous to pay attention to, you you know, you don't wanna make just snap dis decisions based on on quick feedback. You you wanna look for trends in those things because you know, small numbers can be a little misleading. Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: Telling. Okay. Or t or telling potentially, I don't know.
Andrew Schulkind: y I I I I think that a small sampling, yeah, sometimes. but it can also be an outlier. so you know, which is I think always a challenge for small marketers, right? How is is your is your list big enough to give you data that you can really tell? Is it big enough for you to do an A B test? you know, most of our clients are a little bit beyond that, but you wanna make sure that, you know, most of most of our clients don't have, you know, six and seven n figure lists that they're that they're reaching out to regularly.
Paula Chiocchi: So if you had to give marketers a framework for using data more effectively to create better content, what would that be?
Andrew Schulkind: a framework. I think it it it's a lot of what we have been talking about, I would say make sure that you are understand the full picture. make sure you are prioritizing The data that you're getting from prospects and clients directly, not that you're just inferring that you know, that they're telling you that they're they're actually interacting with your content, not industry numbers that are averages etc. like that. I I think that I would make sure that you're prioritizing that. And I I would make sure that you build inefficiency in the form of creativity into into your project. The framework should include experimentation so that you are if you're not experimenting, that iterative, small increase in in effectiveness is almost impossible to achieve. Everyone, you know, feels I think not everyone, a lot of clients expect us to come in and, you know, we're fixing something that they're hoping that we're gonna fix something that's broken that you know the last team they worked with wasn't doing very well, and we try and explain that people. There is very rarely a case where we're gonna, you know, hit on the the silver bullet immediately and you're gonna go from, you know, zero to a hundred overnight. It's gonna be this incremental improvement and that's what you need to be striving for.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah. As you mentioned earlier, iter iterative process. That's a word we use a lot of time with our clients. We're gonna keep iterating the audience,
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: everything, you know, to be keep getting it better and tighter. Is there anything you'd like to leave our audience with t in today's conversation? personally content to me is king, but is is there you know, anything you'd like to leave with with a parting word with our audience today about content?
Andrew Schulkind: I I think since you said content is king I'll point out that distribution and promotion are queen and co queen. I you y you can't
Paula Chiocchi: Okay. Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: just put that content out there and expect to, you know, that build it and they will come. you've gotta have a plan for Yeah, you've gotta find a way to put together.
Paula Chiocchi: Yep. Wanted an audience. Yeah. Yep. And and it is a challenge, but that's why people have us. Right.
Andrew Schulkind: Indeed, yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: So so Andrew, if somebody would like to continue the conversation with you, how what's the best w way to get a hold of you?
Andrew Schulkind: Andigo's website, Andigo dot com, is the best place to find us. and I am on LinkedIn. there is I'm there as Andrew Schulkind. I have a semi
Paula Chiocchi: Okay. And you're on LinkedIn, I'm sure. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: distant cousin who's there as Andy Schulkind, but and he's also in marketing, but he's not me. Yeah, he is. Yeah, yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: Uh-oh. But he's a cousin he's a cousin? Right. Okay. All right. Well thank you so much, Andrew. I've enjoyed having you today. And
Andrew Schulkind: It's been a real pleasure talking to you, Paula.
Paula Chiocchi: and we'll talk to you soon.
Andrew Schulkind: Great.
Andrew Schulkind: Paula, really nice to be here and thanks for the introduction.
Paula Chiocchi: Everybody's talking about content and they're and I think a lot of people don't even know. out of balance between AI and we're gonna dig into that a little bit today. So so Andrew, your topic is data's only as good as what you do with it. What does that statement mean to you and why do you think so many markers miss that point?
Andrew Schulkind: data people fall back on data, which is great. We love when our clients have data dashboards set up when they have marketing metrics in mind. But you know, you can run legion all day, but unless is you know, unless you're let's say a one touch immediate conversion kind of business, there needs to be follow up. And that follow up can't just be, hey, you're just checking in because I I th those kinds of messages really kind of make me crazy. Because
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: you might as well just leave it a voicemail or send a an email saying, hey, how about writing me a check? Because that's all that
Paula Chiocchi: Ha ha.
Andrew Schulkind: you're that the person on the other end that's all they're hearing, because there's nothing in it for them. You've offered
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: nothing of value to them. So you have to focus on the content that is going to make that data useful. So data comes in all sorts of different shapes and forms. hopefully it is telling you a bit about who your prospect is, what they're interested in. and what their concerns are, what what the problem is they're trying to solve, you know, all the, you know, sort of basic marketing profile information that we want. Your content should then be based on what those answers are. That that's the whole idea of relevance, right? That's a a word that I'll work just throw around quite a bit. And that's what we want to see. Make sure that what you're sending back to them is relevant to their concerns, what their interests are, their budget perhaps, you know, what they've tried in the past, anything you've learned about them.
Paula Chiocchi: Well, and I think do you think a lot of people are missing the mark on that?
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, they are. I I think i it's easy to on one end, you know, the the the extreme is th those just checking in messages which really don't add anything at all to the conversation. On the other end are things that are so close to to really being there, right? like how many times have you gotten an email that says dear and then in curly brackets, first name, right? It's supposed to say dear Paula. Right.
Paula Chiocchi: my god. I can't believe it when that happens. Right. Right. Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: It's supposed to say dear Paula or dear Andrew and something went wrong. And that kind of I mean that's a really egregious example, but that kind of I don't know, templated personalization has kind of trained people to I I I hate to say this because it's so depressing, but distrust warmth from strangers. Right? You're a stranger and now you're being che you know, chummy and you know and friendly. And they'd come to distrust that. so rather than Having a lot of sort of triggers based on, well, it's been two days since I last reached out to them, or it's been two weeks, or whatever that may be. You should have fewer touch points, sharper touch points, and touch points that are triggered by something that has actually changed, or something that you can reasonably infer based on you know a prior interaction. That's really what we'd like to see. And you know, folks get pretty close to that, but then they fall down because it's It is just, you know, it is clearly, it's been a week since y I you've heard from me, so I'm gonna I'm gonna reach out again.
Paula Chiocchi: So it makes it a little bit more rote versus, I know they were on this page on the website and they were viewing X, Y, and Z, or is that one of the things you're thinking about or
Andrew Schulkind: yeah, I mean I think that there are well there's there there's a whole a spectrum
Paula Chiocchi: Right.
Andrew Schulkind: of possibilities there, but absolutely if you're running a a CRM that's sophisticated enough so that it's tying together your email marketing with what you know about a a profile cookie based or or any other way. yeah, you absolutely wanna make sure that if they're interacting with different kinds of with certain kinds of content, then that's gonna be reflected in the next piece that that they get. Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: Yep, focus on that. Yeah, instead of the generic. So
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: so speaking of content, before writing a a single blog or an email or a white paper or a LinkedIn post, what data should marketers be looking at first?
Andrew Schulkind: That's an interesting question. and I'll hedge a little by saying it depends,
Paula Chiocchi: Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: everybody's least favorite answer. but
Paula Chiocchi: Exactly.
Andrew Schulkind: it does depend a little bit on what that what kind of content you're creating and what your expectation is, right? So there are different kinds of content and they although they they span the the the length of your marketing funnel, some of them are are more attuned to the top of the funnel versus middle of the funnel versus you know, very very close to its decision making. So what you should be thinking about there. really depends on where your folks are in the funnel and what you're hoping their next step is going to be, right? So it is sort of that dual-edged, you know, two two sides of the same coin, I guess, where you want to make sure you understand where their head is at, where they are in the process, and by the same token, what you're hoping to get out of this piece of content. What what action are you asking or you hoping they will take?
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah, we d we do a lot of email acquisition marketing as you know, and most of the clients don't think about that. You know, they just they just want to get that email out and get that sale, you know. And and then and then even if they have really great open and click through race and nobody did anything, it's like they're wondering why, you know.
Andrew Schulkind: There's a mismatch there, yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: Is an expansion, yeah. So so how can marketers use audience data to better understand what buyers actually care about instead of just making assumptions?
Andrew Schulkind: Say say that again? I missed the beginning of the
Paula Chiocchi: So so how can marketers use audience data for to better
Andrew Schulkind: yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: understand what buyers actually care about instead of just making assumptions?
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, Hopefully they're going to be telling you based on if you've been strategic enough in the kinds of content that you've created, they will begin to tell you. one of the tools that we ask clients to use is a multi-step email cadence. So and I I certainly didn't invent this. I wish I could remember who we kind of magpied this from. but you know, a an eight-step email cadence isn't uncommon where the first seven steps are going To you're going to create them in a way that people are going to interact with them or not, and the next email is going to be based on what the interaction was. And over the course of that, you'll find out whether they are in the mindset of you know, sort of a fear-based decision, they're trying to stop something from happening, or an aspirational based based decision where there is some goal that they want to reach. and there are a couple of different aspects to that before the the the last email in the series is hey we've got this service for you or this product for you that we think can is going to help exactly that and you're tailoring it along the way so that y it's an eight email sequence but you've got a lot more versions of the emails to to send based on on what they're they're
Paula Chiocchi: The action.
Andrew Schulkind: on their actions. So that's the best way. But y y yeah no that's
Paula Chiocchi: That's a lot, eight eight sequins. I don't think I've
Andrew Schulkind: that's been very effective. i i i it's certainly possible to shorten that, though.
Paula Chiocchi: Typically what we see is people want typ typically what we see is they want one or two and they don't understand why it didn't work. Right. So Yeah,
Andrew Schulkind: I think I think you may know.
Paula Chiocchi: yeah. So is that's that's how you approach with your clients then is is is is a is a eight touch sequence. Wow. Okay, that's great.
Andrew Schulkind: In indeed. you know, that's that's what we have found to work best. Not all of our clients want to commit
Paula Chiocchi: It worked. Awesome.
Andrew Schulkind: to that or want to create that that much content, which I understand, but I you know, you're also asking you're trying to achieve more than you can with what you're feeding into it. It's not the data alone and it's not just one or two pieces of content. You've gotta make that long term effort to create the touch points that'll let you establish the trust so that a they'll be you know, you'll be more open to the idea of of email starting dear Paula and you'll also be more forgiving of an email that starts dear open bracket first name, close bracket bracket. Which happens.
Paula Chiocchi: Dear name. Yeah, I find after sometimes after the third e in and and we're in the business, but I find sometimes after like the third email like you know I start paying attention a little bit more, you know, 'cause I'm seeing the name again and you talked about trust earlier. So it's that eight c cadence sequence probably helps build and bring you into that trust level up, I would think. So
Andrew Schulkind: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's that's its primary primary goal. Although again that the two sided coin I I mentioned earlier, you're giving them something, but at the same time, they're giving you something back, which is the information about what they're really interested in and what's motivating their their inquiry.
Paula Chiocchi: So many companies produce a tremendous amount of content. I mean we we all know that, we're all bombarded every day. But in your opinion, what separates content that genuinely influences buying decisions from content that simply just fills up a publishing calendar?
Andrew Schulkind: the on the one hand it's the the answer is super simple. It is relevance, right? You you've got the right content and run for fun of the right people at the right time. the longer answer, of course, is consistency. You just hit on you know, this idea, after the third email or so I'm gonna start paying attention to this name. It's a little familiar to me and it sorta caught my interest earlier. You know, that that matters, that consistency showing up regularly, because we all know that If the problem isn't right here right now, I'm liable, your your prospect is liable to push off any decision because they do have a problem that is right here, right now, that they they've got to solve. So staying top of mind in a way that isn't annoying and that does provide value, that's the difference. So content that is relevant and provides value to your prospects is the kind of content that will continue to show up in their inbox and be consumed or on the website or social media feed or wherever it is you're publishing.
Paula Chiocchi: And not annoying key. I totally agree with you. Yeah, we we had a client says one time, you know, you guys who sent to us like a we have a little newsletter that we publish every month. I said, you know, if I wasn't getting that every month, I probably wouldn't have had you on my list to come back for s data for a campaign. You know, 'cause you just forget, you know. forget you exist. So
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, that's absolutely right. Or may not know that you do some s you know slightly related task you know service.
Paula Chiocchi: So everybody talks about AI, you and talking about it earlier. AI has dramatically increased the amount of content being produced. And has it made effective content writing easier or simply made medioc mediocre content more common in your opinion?
Andrew Schulkind: I'm tr trying to not to well I I won't censor myself because mediocre content
Paula Chiocchi: No.
Andrew Schulkind: is not easier. It's really bad content, quite honestly. Used well a AI ha is a is a real boon to just about any marketer in in a a myriad of ways. And I think that there is way too much I mean, LinkedIn i is a really tough place to be right now because every third or fourth post is about AI. I I I can tell you using AI, I don't like AI, I'm not gonna consume your content because it's AI and like and the the truth of the matter is there's I think it is a lot less obvious When AI, at least reasonable A, you know, reasonably written material is AI because there are Hemingways among us and there are people who really don't write well at all. And they're all out there on LinkedIn. And,
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: you know, some of them recognize may even recognize, hey, I'm not really great at writing, but I don't have anyone else who can do it, so I don't have any choice. This is how I'm gonna do it. I don't have the budget, I don't have the time, whatever the case may be. and that's fine. I think that getting hung up on whether something is or is not AI generated is less important than does it speak to you? Does it pique your interest?
Paula Chiocchi: That's how I view it.
Andrew Schulkind: Does it
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: say, hey, this is a company I'm interested in learning more about or that I might consider working with? In that case, you know, AI is great. And I also we were talking earlier how we, for liability reasons, we don't use AI to write for any of our clients. I do use AI as an editing partner and as in in a a lot of ways that aren't actual putting words down on paper. and one of the biggest ones is there are c I have a couple of series going. on LinkedIn two, that that
Paula Chiocchi: Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: I write every week. And v early this year I realized that I had published almost the I an identical piece two weeks apart in the same series. And it wasn't
Paula Chiocchi: Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: I I didn't just copy it and paste it. I forgot to take the notes out of my notes file and that I had done it. And so I shared the same anecdote and wrote it slightly differently and it was embarrassing, but you know, it happened. And I've finally got Claude to pay attention to what I was doing and how to do it and got and figured out myself how to create a project so that it would remember all this and gave it it already had a lot of information about how I like to write and how I'm I'm trying to write. And so every week We work together and say, Hey, let's work on this week's this not that post and here's my idea and here's what I've written and said and it'll tell me this is great, it's awfully close to something you published in February, but as
Paula Chiocchi: Nice.
Andrew Schulkind: long as you keep this in mind you can change that. It is a fantastic editorial partner. And if more people used it like that rather than on trying to, you know, say, Hey, AI, what should I write this week or you know, what should I write? Yeah, it so
Paula Chiocchi: That's a great idea though. Yeah. As much as as much content as you write, you you can't remember all of it, everything you did, right? Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah I wish I could. That would be fantastic. But yeah, no, it's it's it's a it is a really great tool and I I wish people would understand I mean, there are certainly, you know, societal implications and whether we're all gonna be, you know, chained in a basement somewhere in a couple of years. Subservient to our AI overlords is I you know, topic for another podcast, but
Paula Chiocchi: That we were another another one, but I hope we're not, right?
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, me too. But I you know, I I think all the all the hand wringing and pearl clutching about AI slop is there's plenty of it out there, but it's easy to ignore. And if you're not sure then just either use it or don't and and move on.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah. So I think we touched on a little bit earlier, we talked about name and brackets, so we're talking about personalization, right? So we know I think you and I both know it's important, but can mark marketers material it realistically create personalized content at scale without sacrificing the quality?
Andrew Schulkind: That is one of those sixty-four dollar questions, right? I I sixty four million dollar. it
Paula Chiocchi: Must be sixty four thousand dollars.
Andrew Schulkind: is I I I think there there is It is difficult to do in the middle, I will say. you know, scale is one of those things where if you are a very hands-on consultant, we're working with a client now, we is smaller than we usually do, who she is a s a business strategist and works with founders who are looking to figure out what's next. And it's fascinating to work with her in part because she wants two or three new clients a year. That's it. She her her her her Schedule is pretty full already, and she knows occasionally people graduate out, they've sold their business because that was what then
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: right? Makes great sense for them. So for her, scale isn't an issue. And it is just about creating great content, knowing your audience really well, and being able to adapt that just a little sometimes to speak to the person you're now trying to reach. you know, which is there are other things that are are a little bit more general, right? Her website, you don't know who's gonna show up on your website and It has to be broad enough to to capture their interest. but And and at the other end of the of the spectrum, you know, really big businesses, there's a different expectation. And you don't have to call me by name and know my name to get my attention, but you do have to know a lot of the things we've been talking about earlier, what my interests are, where where my pain points are, you know, sort of classic marketing stuff. And I think that the that's easier for them than it is for those of us who in the are in the middle where I want more than two or three new clients a year. not a lot more than that, but what I what I'm doing to get that is i th it's harder to scale, I'll say, without true personalization. And there is some expectation that, well, there are companies like mine that are much larger that can deliver different things, the different price point, but you know, there's a whole different kind of world out there. And there are some clients, prospects, who are a twixt and between. You know, th they could go either way and still get great value from For someone much bigger. And that's there's a real challenge there. So it's a it's a really great question, and I don't think I've answered it, but I think the the challenge is for those of us in the middle to find a way to Be genuine in how we are personalizing and not just relying on I know your first name. In fact, one of the things, not to make this too long an answer, but iterative information gathering is something that you can set your website up to do so that if someone consumes a piece of content and then they click through on to the next thing, you now can ask perhaps the first thing was free, ungated. They could just go get it. Now maybe you ask them for their email address. And once you've got that, if they consume another piece of content that makes it clear that they are a business in a certain industry or a business of a certain size or there's some other determining factor, you can then add that to the profile because now you you ask for that information, add it to their profile, and that changes the information, the content that you you serve to them. So there are ways to do it. As I said, and took too long to say, it is it is tricky. in the middle than it is at either end of the spectrum.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah, I I agree with you and in and in the begin in the in the beginning, you know, and we had a client once, very well well worldwide recognized brand, and we kept telling you're not offering them anything, you're just trying to gather all this information and they insisted on doing that, we had ten thousand people go to the landing page and bail.
Andrew Schulkind: Wow. That's heartbreaking.
Paula Chiocchi: Because because they didn't offer anything and they wouldn't listen to us, you know. And and y y y especially now with the with the age range of the B B to B buyer, I think the latest statistic I saw is seventy two percent are millennials. They're not giving anything out unless you give it to you know, it's just not gonna happen, you know. So
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah. Yeah, different world. Absolutely different world.
Paula Chiocchi: It is a different world. And they don't really want to talk to anybody. You know, they want to kinda get as much
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: as they can online and and make get close to that decision. Unless it's a big buying group and a major corporation, but you know.
Andrew Schulkind: The other you know, a coda to that is that companies that ask for all that much information, I I I don't have a percentage, I don't know, but our experience has been a lot of them never use that information. They don't even know why they're collecting it. It's just like Yeah, it's like you've you've you've turned off Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: It's even worse. That's even worse.
Andrew Schulkind: And turned off so many people, lost them just for
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: information that was never going to win you anything.
Paula Chiocchi: Yep. So let's talk about measurement. Once content is published, what tells you it's actually working?
Andrew Schulkind: Here I th the most important thing we try and get across to our clients is snapshots are are are nice to look at, but not nearly as important as moving pictures. So you can look at what you know your first day data is or what happened with this piece of content over a ninety day period, which is a a moving picture of sorts, but it's a lot better to look at it in context with everything else. What how does it compare to other content you've created? How does it compare to other content on this topic or aimed at this person or published in on on this channel. we really try and get folks to to see context because that is a lot more illuminating you know, than than anything else. A four percent open rate, maybe you're thrilled with that, but maybe you're used to a twenty five percent open rate. I mean
Paula Chiocchi: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Andrew Schulkind: That's wonderful you are. Very few of us are. But really understanding that is is key, I think, to to making sure that you're you're looking at your data and getting insights out of it, not just looking at data.
Paula Chiocchi: Is there any specific tools that y you use or is it mostly done through the CRM platform?
Andrew Schulkind: Our clients drive that more than we do. I mean there are some tools that
Paula Chiocchi: Okay, right.
Andrew Schulkind: were like, hey, that we don't really love this tool. we'd prefer not to use it. But we're comfortable using free tools like Google Analytics to paid tools.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: you know, there are a lot of CRMs that do have really great content tracking information, you know, for the website and other platforms all integrated. And the more integrated you can get that information, the better off you are. Just I think the the caveat there is a lot of CRMs are very robust, I think to put it in a positive term. but that means that, you know, like Google Analytics, which is not a CRM of course, but it's just a fire hose of information. And unless you can figure out how to create a dashboard that gives you information that you can you can absorb, you're not gonna get very much out of it, even though it's just
Paula Chiocchi: Mm. Yeah, yeah. What yeah, what what good is it if if you don't know that? Yeah, totally agree with you on that one. so, you know, markers you mentioned earlier, celebrate impressions and clicks. What do you suggest they do to look deeper?
Andrew Schulkind: so the data, you know, for us, we talk about data in two different ways. There are process metrics and there are business metrics. And process metrics, we don't discount their importance, you know, the importance of likes and clicks and follows or you know, whatever it is. but if you're in a conversation with anyone who has you know profit and loss responsibility for a business or a division, they are not going to be impressed if you tell them, you know, about
Paula Chiocchi: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Schulkind: your process metrics. They want to know about business metrics. And so I to me it's trying to find those the connections between them, because process metrics can often be leading indicators, where business metrics can often be trailing indicators. Trying to find those connections. so that you're able to make the case that, hey, when we see this happen with website traffic, we are generally able to predict that our our lead gen numbers go up or lead quality scores go up or whatever the case may be. Trying to tease that out of out of the information that you've got is critically important. It can't just be, you know, unless you're a publisher who is getting paid by advertisers for the number of impressions your content
Paula Chiocchi: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Schulkind: gets, no one really cares about the number of impressions. Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah, I years ago I had somebody say, Well, we all we cared about was a four percent open rate And I was like, Well, okay, but what if you get a one percent open rate but you have double the sales? To the four percent. And they kinda looked at me like they didn't know what I was talking about. I always said, Yeah, you could have a hundred percent open rate, but if nothing no, nothing's happening, that you know, d you didn't tr generate the lead or the sale, it doesn't matter. You know, it's also the qual quality of of of those people that open and click and go th go through to the to finish the process. But you know, some people people got that was a while back, people have gotten better better than that.
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, people do generally have a better sense of
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah, i i it's evolved for sure. That's relative to email marketing, but can you share an example where performance data completely changed to content strategy?
Andrew Schulkind: Performance data completely changed the content strategy. I would I'm trying to think of one that is that is more specific than this, but the one that comes to mind is working with a a client, a mission driven business, which is you know, someone that though that's a lot of the folks we work with are mission driven businesses. and the content they were putting out was trying to serve both sides of their of their double bottom line business, so to speak. So they kept putting stuff out that was split between what the the the investment side of the of the business was sort of earning and what the impact side was doing. Were they having an impact yet? Were they actually making money for their investors? Yes. But splitting that up so that they were certainly times where you could have content that addressed both, it's important to to bring the two together. But performance increased really radically when we honed in on one or the other. And sometimes what surprised us was that they were in Instances where folks we thought would be interested in just the performance side, you know, how the business was doing, really love the impact statements. And you know, it shows how closely together the two are tied, but I think that performance data surprises us a little because it it really did drive home this truism that people have one thing in mind and one thing in mind only. If you try and tell them two things, you're only gonna think about one thing. And I I think that that's a a a good reminder to. keep very tightly focused in most of your your content.
Paula Chiocchi: Do you think there was potentially different type of audience that focused on one versus versus versus the other?
Andrew Schulkind: yeah, absolutely. And and we knew those two audience existed.
Paula Chiocchi: Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: we just thought, well, hey, we want to serve both of them all the time and it turns out, well, you can, you just you can't do it together necessarily.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah. Yeah. That that and that's a big lesson to learn. Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well it's one that yeah, it took some convincing and and
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.
Andrew Schulkind: you know, actually having to do the tests, you know, to say, All right, let's try this for a month and see how what happens with our performance.
Paula Chiocchi: So how do you think about a piece of content that sh should it be improved or abandoned altogether when you're putting out content? How do you make that decision?
Andrew Schulkind: Try not to make snap decisions. if something just doesn't I mean there are certain things that I I think you should absolutely have hard and fast rules. If it is you aren't sure what the goal is, what you're you're expecting a client to do after they've consumed this piece of content, probably not worth publishing. If it does not sound like your brand voice, you should rethink what you're what you're doing with that piece of content. beyond rules like that and there are a handful of others, I would say be open to experimenting because sometimes you're very much surprised by what resonates with an audience and what not just resonates but resonates in a way that is productive, right? That they're they're interested in and that that then that highlights your expertise in in in some ways and gets them to take action. there are a lot of surprises there. So keep an open mind, but do have high standards for quality writing, tone of writing, and understanding where it's fitting in. If it if it does not have a clear purpose in an overall marketing schedule you know content ed editorial calendar then don't publish it.
Paula Chiocchi: Makes sense to me. So how closely do you think content creators and analysts should work together?
Andrew Schulkind: as close as possible. I mean I I really, you know, I think that
Paula Chiocchi: Do you find they resonate together or do you do you
Andrew Schulkind: I I think it depends on it I I I can only speak to, you know, sort of my my personal experience that it's very much personality driven, right? You know, that there are folks that are open to the idea that they aren't creating art, that there is, you know, you are creating you are being creative in service of commerce, and that is different than being an artist, right? We're not talking about the great American novel here or, you know, paintings that are gonna hang in a in a museum. It
Paula Chiocchi: In the
Andrew Schulkind: is it's graphic design and it is copyrighted. writing and keeping that in mind you should all those creative folks ought to be absolutely thrilled to be talking to analysts, folks with data to share. That's that's how you can measure how how effective your work is.
Paula Chiocchi: how effective you're all around. So where do you think intent data, engagement data and customer feedback fit into the content creation process, given people are using looking at in intent data?
Andrew Schulkind: I I think that that is an excellent example of what we're just talking about, that that's data that you sh as as someone who's managing a marketing program, as well as someone who is creating the content for that program should be paying attention to because your your prospects are telling you what they're interested in. Your prospects are telling you what resonates with them, what they're paying attention to and what they're not. And your content should absolutely reflect that. I I think that again And you know, getting back to the idea of snapshots being a little bit dangerous to pay attention to, you you know, you don't wanna make just snap dis decisions based on on quick feedback. You you wanna look for trends in those things because you know, small numbers can be a little misleading. Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: Telling. Okay. Or t or telling potentially, I don't know.
Andrew Schulkind: y I I I I think that a small sampling, yeah, sometimes. but it can also be an outlier. so you know, which is I think always a challenge for small marketers, right? How is is your is your list big enough to give you data that you can really tell? Is it big enough for you to do an A B test? you know, most of our clients are a little bit beyond that, but you wanna make sure that, you know, most of most of our clients don't have, you know, six and seven n figure lists that they're that they're reaching out to regularly.
Paula Chiocchi: So if you had to give marketers a framework for using data more effectively to create better content, what would that be?
Andrew Schulkind: a framework. I think it it it's a lot of what we have been talking about, I would say make sure that you are understand the full picture. make sure you are prioritizing The data that you're getting from prospects and clients directly, not that you're just inferring that you know, that they're telling you that they're they're actually interacting with your content, not industry numbers that are averages etc. like that. I I think that I would make sure that you're prioritizing that. And I I would make sure that you build inefficiency in the form of creativity into into your project. The framework should include experimentation so that you are if you're not experimenting, that iterative, small increase in in effectiveness is almost impossible to achieve. Everyone, you know, feels I think not everyone, a lot of clients expect us to come in and, you know, we're fixing something that they're hoping that we're gonna fix something that's broken that you know the last team they worked with wasn't doing very well, and we try and explain that people. There is very rarely a case where we're gonna, you know, hit on the the silver bullet immediately and you're gonna go from, you know, zero to a hundred overnight. It's gonna be this incremental improvement and that's what you need to be striving for.
Paula Chiocchi: Yeah. As you mentioned earlier, iter iterative process. That's a word we use a lot of time with our clients. We're gonna keep iterating the audience,
Andrew Schulkind: Yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: everything, you know, to be keep getting it better and tighter. Is there anything you'd like to leave our audience with t in today's conversation? personally content to me is king, but is is there you know, anything you'd like to leave with with a parting word with our audience today about content?
Andrew Schulkind: I I think since you said content is king I'll point out that distribution and promotion are queen and co queen. I you y you can't
Paula Chiocchi: Okay. Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: just put that content out there and expect to, you know, that build it and they will come. you've gotta have a plan for Yeah, you've gotta find a way to put together.
Paula Chiocchi: Yep. Wanted an audience. Yeah. Yep. And and it is a challenge, but that's why people have us. Right.
Andrew Schulkind: Indeed, yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: So so Andrew, if somebody would like to continue the conversation with you, how what's the best w way to get a hold of you?
Andrew Schulkind: Andigo's website, Andigo dot com, is the best place to find us. and I am on LinkedIn. there is I'm there as Andrew Schulkind. I have a semi
Paula Chiocchi: Okay. And you're on LinkedIn, I'm sure. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay.
Andrew Schulkind: distant cousin who's there as Andy Schulkind, but and he's also in marketing, but he's not me. Yeah, he is. Yeah, yeah.
Paula Chiocchi: Uh-oh. But he's a cousin he's a cousin? Right. Okay. All right. Well thank you so much, Andrew. I've enjoyed having you today. And
Andrew Schulkind: It's been a real pleasure talking to you, Paula.
Paula Chiocchi: and we'll talk to you soon.
Andrew Schulkind: Great.
