Dr. Cam (00:01.734)
Do you ever feel like every disagreement with your teen turns into a battlefield or worse? Total silence. What if I told you conflict isn't the problem, it's actually the path to a stronger connection? In today's episode, I'm joined by Bob Burdone, renowned negotiation expert, Harvard Law Senior Fellow and co-author of the bestselling book, Conflict Resilience, Negotiating Disagreement Without Giving Up or Giving In.
Bob spent decades helping people handle high stakes conflict and today he's showing us how those same tools can transform the way we parent our teens. We're talking about how to stop avoiding conflict, not stopping conflict, but stop avoiding conflict. Why discomfort can actually be good for you and your teen and what your reactions might be teaching them without you even realizing it. Trust me, this episode will challenge how you think about arguments, eye rolls, and even those dreaded standoffs.
and it just might change your relationship with your teen for the better. But before we get Bob to spill his secrets, I've got a quick favor to ask of you. If this podcast has ever made you feel seen, supported, or even just a little more confident navigating the chaos of parenting teens, would you hit that follow button? It helps you stay in the loop and it helps me keep bringing you real talk conversations like this. And if something in today's episode strikes a chord,
A quick review helps other parents find us too. All right. Let's hear how conflict can actually strengthen our relationship with our teens. Bob, welcome to the show.
Bob Bordone (01:35.886)
Thank you so much for having me. Great to be here.
Dr. Cam (01:38.124)
Yeah, so first tell us how in the world did you get into conflict resolution?
Bob Bordone (01:43.278)
Yeah, so I cannot say that it was because I liked conflict or was particularly good at it. In fact, I would probably say quite the opposite. So my journey into this work actually started when I was a student at Harvard Law School many, many years ago. And I took a negotiation course that covered both how to negotiate and also how to deal with conflict and disputes. I went into it very much with the idea of
Dr. Cam (01:47.386)
You
Dr. Cam (01:53.638)
Hmm.
Dr. Cam (02:08.464)
Hmm.
Bob Bordone (02:12.59)
I'm gonna learn the tips and the tricks. And then of course in all great learning, it's when you're completely surprised and turn topsy-turvy and that's what happened. And I realized that so much of this was about perspective taking and listening and perceptions and emotions. yeah, I was sold. I was sold for all sorts of reasons. It was interdisciplinary. It was very applied.
It challenged me. And I think at some level I wanted to do work that I felt like was making a difference in the world. And that's not to say that lawyers don't do that because they can for sure. They don't always do that. But this kind of spoke to me.
Dr. Cam (03:00.26)
Yeah. And it is something that we don't tend to learn because like you said, I think most of us try to avoid conflict because we're not great at it or it turns into something really icky and ugly. And I think this is what I see a lot happening in homes. And what I often see with parents is because we're the parent, we win, we shut you down. There is no argument because there's no, there's no sides. It's just, I win. And
I'm not thinking we teach kids how to resolve conflict that way.
Bob Bordone (03:34.958)
think that's right. I I think that one of the challenges is we have a culture where we think that conflict is a bad thing and to be avoided. And I think, you know, for as many times as the way it is engaged is you do it because I said so. And that's just not parents, that's bosses in the workplace, right? That can be leaders. It's either my way or the highway.
But there's also, for as many times as we do that, we see the other thing happen, which is, I'm exhausted, I'm not gonna say anything. Or I'll just let it slide. Or I'll look away. And those on both sides are lost opportunities for connection. They're lost opportunities to discover something that would be valuable. And from a parenting perspective.
think there are lost opportunities to model to your children how they can deal more effectively with conflict in their own lives, whether it's personal relationships or professionally down the road. Because kids are noticing the way the parent handles it, I'm of the age where I have, I don't actually have my own children, but I see lots of parents with teenagers. And maybe because, I mean,
Because of the work that I do, I look at the conflict handling styles and sometimes I think like, my gosh, like you are literally incentivizing your kid to create more trouble because what you do is kind of semi-engage and then cave in and give them something.
Dr. Cam (05:19.654)
Oh, I love this. and I think, so I wanna dig into both sides of the spectrum here because I think you're right, we kinda go there. We've got conflict down. I think we know this part of it quite well. It's the resolution part that we forget about. We just stop conflict bad instead of going, oh my gosh, conflict is an opportunity for resolution, which is problem solving. So let's talk about why do
parents first of all shut down and give up often.
Bob Bordone (05:53.74)
Yeah, I I think there's a whole panoply of possible reasons for this. At the most basic level, right, it's probably their own bad models of how to handle conflict themselves, right? We learn it from generations. I also think in this particular moment that there is a cultural belief that anything that feels uncomfortable
or unpleasant should be avoided. I think that is just objectively untrue and problematic. But if that's one of the beliefs, right, we do that. think, you know, I think third is, listen, mean, parents are tired. And this takes work, right? And so one of the things I would just say, right, and this is, you know, I wrote this book with a brain scientist.
Dr. Cam (06:30.086)
Yeah.
Dr. Cam (06:37.734)
Amen to that.
Bob Bordone (06:49.846)
And one of the things about our brain is that we are trained, the brain trains itself to avoid things that could cause harm, that are unpleasant. And the only way out of that is if we can see what in the book, we borrowed this from Judd Brewer at Stanford, it's called the BBO, the Bigger Better Offer.
If you don't see a bigger, offer for engaging in the discomfort of that conflict when you're exhausted, then you're simply not going to do it. And it's a little bit like, I I have friends who run the Boston Marathon. And when you run the Boston Marathon in April, it means you're doing some pretty heavy training in February. Pretty cold in Boston in February. But when that alarm goes off at 5 a.m. and you have to do that run in the cold,
it's not the pleasantness of the moment that's had to do it, right? It's the bigger, better offer that on April 15th, I'm going to run this marathon. But we have, but there's a rewiring that we need to do around conflict. But if we think there's no upside and it's all bad, then of course we're going to either, if we have the power, shut it down by saying, because I said so, or otherwise look away, avoid it, throw up our hands.
Dr. Cam (07:55.088)
Yeah.
Dr. Cam (08:14.118)
Right. And I think what's interesting is teenagers, A, have more energy typically than we do, so they outlast us, which is why we often just give up. And they do see a better offer because they want to win. And I think we as parents, the first obstacle that I see as parents when it comes to conflict is we misinterpret it as disrespect and defiance rather than having a different opinion, which is extremely healthy, right?
Bob Bordone (08:44.396)
Absolutely. mean any relationship where there are differences of opinion is not a real authentic relationship. And I think that's the other thing that I would say is you're avoiding perhaps in service of the relationship. But actually whenever you avoid there's a side of yourself that is still thinking like I should have done something, I should have said something. So what you're doing is you're
Basically continuing the conflict with yourself bringing it to your pillow, right? Or maybe to your spouse or somebody And you're not actually building a relationship with your child because they're not seeing that side of you and so there's something kind of rich and connective about Entering into the conflict and of course, that's definitely harder to do Mitch at the time with a teenager because as you said, I think that
They may be seeing this in very win-lose terms. They may have put you into the role of kind the enemy. I think one of the pieces of work that you have to do as a parent is reorient your own story about yourself and the role. Be secure enough in your role. Because I think often parents in those teenage years feel like they're losing something. And that feels really challenging.
Dr. Cam (10:07.622)
They do.
Bob Bordone (10:12.11)
But I think, again, seeing the opportunity of the engagement as a real way to be a good parent in the long term, kind of a good friend and mentor to your kids.
Dr. Cam (10:28.196)
Yeah. In fact, one of the things I teach parents is to argue with your kids because arguing is actually a form of respect. Your kids don't argue with you if they disrespect you because they would just do it. They don't need to convince you otherwise. So rather than seeing it as disrespect, seeing it as respect. And I think a lot of times parents don't want to put themselves in a position of losing. And because we don't know how to resolve conflict,
Losing is just the person that winning is the person that outlasts and we tend to not so we either step away because we're gonna lose anyway we can't outlast them or we shut it down with something that we just do a power move and say we're just gonna do a power move and we're still not winning the conversation we're just power moving so I think what we want to do today Bob is I want you to teach us how do we resolve conflict so we can
present it and we still have the opportunity and I think it's not necessary I win, you lose. It's a how do we win together?
Bob Bordone (11:36.248)
Right, absolutely. mean, and I think part of that first invitation is almost a reframe on the conflict as a win-lose binary. Because as soon as we are in that binary, we want to win, and then there has to be a loser. And so I think part of the reframe is, how do I think about
Not what my position is here, whatever it is. You are not on social media in your bedroom alone. Or you're home by 11 o'clock on Friday, whatever it is. But what are the underlying sets of interests that I have as a parent? What are my kids' underlying set of interests? And how can we maximally meet all of those interests?
Dr. Cam (12:32.187)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (12:32.558)
not as a compromise, but as meeting the underlying interests. But when it's framed as, I'll either be home by 11 p.m. or not, then there's gonna be a winner and a loser, right? So this is basic kind of negotiation idea. It's like, we need to go from positions to underlying interests, because that expands and allows for some creativity in the conversation, which doesn't mean there won't be some compromises, but it takes it out of the frame of
somebody made more or less compromises. And that really, in a very prevalent idea that in conflict there's winners and losers, is just a kind of a misunderstanding of what conflict is and could be. And so we need to kind of, I think, undo that first.
Dr. Cam (13:22.502)
agreed because if somebody leaves feeling like the loser, that conflict is gonna continue, because nobody wants to be the loser, nobody. And I think one of the things I see with parents too is when they do an argument and they come up with a solution, their solution resolves their underlying issues as you were talking about, not their teens, and so the teens disregard it because it doesn't help. So when you're saying let's resolve,
This isn't about saying, I'm right, you're wrong. It's about going, if we don't resolve what our teen is arguing about, we're going to have this argument again tomorrow and the next day and the next day. And that's exhausting.
Bob Bordone (14:02.828)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, any kind of sustainable good outcome has to be one that meets all of the party's interests. Otherwise, it's not sustainable. mean, this is what we're about, know, parent-kids relationships, but that's across the board because if you force somebody into something, as you said, they're going to be coming back another day. They're going to be looking for some kind of revenge.
And also, it imposes very high enforcement costs and monitoring costs. And so the more you can reframe this as a way to really try as best as we can, understanding that not every single interest is going to be met, but look at the interest, that gives us this opportunity to engage in something that really is problem solving and really is resolving and sustainable.
Dr. Cam (14:37.146)
Hmm, does. Yeah.
Dr. Cam (15:02.426)
Yeah, it's also teaching our kids to self advocate and voice for themselves and there are studies showing that when kids learn how to argue effectively, they are much more resilient against peer pressure and making bad choices. And a lot of the things we fear as parents that when we shut them down, we're not preparing them to counter those. So let's talk about this. How, what is the?
first step we need to do when we are engaging in a conversation with our team and it's starting to become, conflict is rising and we're starting to get a little annoyed with one another, what do we first do?
Bob Bordone (15:42.616)
Right, so when you're in the moment, the most important thing in that moment, I think, is to actually take a pause. And there's this really incredible research around the value of the pause. Part of what you should be doing is just naming to yourself in that pause. What are the emotions I'm feeling right
So a guy by name of Matt Lieberman at UCLA has done this research. He calls this affective labeling. And the affective labeling, the naming the emotions to yourself, very quickly can reduce the amount of time it takes for you, for the kind of control center in your brain, which to move from the amygdala, which is the emotional center, more to the kind of frontal lobe area, which is a little more common.
The other thing I think it does is gives you a chance to be more purposeful in whatever response you might make. The second thing I would say is, and this is really hard to do, but lean into a listening move instead of an assertiveness move. So curiosity about what's going on for your kid, why something is important to them.
what they might be feeling. I think the third thing I would just say is that after you've done this de-escalation, I think that it's important to say to yourself, is this a good moment for continuing whatever this hard conversation is? Or should we do a little reset? Which is not, this is a micro avoid move, but it's not a macro avoid move, right?
Dr. Cam (17:23.622)
Hmm.
Bob Bordone (17:33.998)
It's coming back at a time when you feel more able to enter into the conversation and when they might be more able to do it well. And, you know, one of the nice things I think about, you know, a parent-child relationship is it's not like it's going to be over tomorrow. So we don't need to. The timing matters. So getting into it at the moment when both of you
are in what we call the period of limbic irritability might not be the right time. You may say, hey, we've calmed down enough. Can we continue this in a different way? But I think it's OK to say, hey, this guy, this has felt heated and challenging. It's important. And because it's important, I want to be able to do this when each of us feels a more
Dr. Cam (18:19.952)
Yeah.
Dr. Cam (18:26.726)
I think that is so critical because when we're both in an emotional state, our reasoning is shut down, right? It goes offline. So if we're both in that emotion, I think that's what happens a lot in conflict is it just becomes this emotional whirlwind and nothing is being accomplished other than more emotion being raised up, right? So there's nothing good that's going to come out of that conversation. So taking that pause, stepping back,
And there is no rush. feels urgent in the moment, but you're right. There's no rush because if we rush into it now, we're prolonging the end game even more so, right?
Bob Bordone (19:07.616)
Absolutely, right? And I think in that moment, when we're in an act react cycle, it's really hard to come up with good outcomes. go to our whatever our defaults are. And one these we talk about in our book are kind of these five common defaults of the five apps, right? Fight, flight, freeze, fawn or fester. And thousands of years ago, when this was an existential threat, maybe that was really helpful.
Dr. Cam (19:20.112)
Take the phone.
Dr. Cam (19:30.267)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (19:37.4)
But in our day-to-day relationships, just going to one of those five Fs without kind of purpose or consideration usually isn't helpful.
Dr. Cam (19:44.505)
Yeah, I'm going to add one more that parents do. Take the phone. It's not an F, but it's a P, it's an F sound. Add that to the thing. That's our go-to default. Okay, so now we're calm. Let's bring up the phone because this is such a huge thing. So let's use this as an example if we can and help walk through this. You want your teen to turn their phone off at night.
Bob Bordone (19:50.915)
That's happening. Totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Cam (20:14.744)
Your teen does not want to turn their phone off at night. And this becomes a battle of the wills every single night. Okay, we're paused. We're going to step back. How do we as parents start this conversation so that we're going to end up in a positive outcome?
Bob Bordone (20:37.806)
Okay, love this, right? So the first thing you want to do is come to it from a perspective of curiosity. So what would that look like? Well, you know, I know we've had this fight a lot. I think what I've never really asked you is why is it important for you to have that phone on? What are your worries about it?
like just say more about the why and to really let them talk about that and reflect that back to them. Then to be able to say after you've reflected it back so you really showed you demonstrated. Not correct.
Dr. Cam (21:21.078)
not correct reflect. I want to make sure we're very clear on that. We're not telling them they're wrong or this is why that's not true. We're reflecting what they've said. Okay.
Bob Bordone (21:25.912)
Yes.
Bob Bordone (21:31.95)
Absolutely. And we're reflecting what we're hearing as the underlying reasons why I might miss something. I'll be seen as whatever, a geek, I don't want to be excluded from my friends, everybody else is doing, whatever it is they say. All of the above, right? And then to be able to say, here are my concerns.
Dr. Cam (21:38.662)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Cam (21:50.01)
Yeah, all of the above, yeah.
Bob Bordone (21:59.054)
And not to address, not to say they're wrong, but my concerns are, you know, proper sleep.
being whatever, sucked into an unhealthy dynamic, et cetera, making the list, right? And then being able to say, so what ideas do you have on how we can address these concerns?
Now, they might just say, have an idea. Let me have my darn phone. Okay, so that would address your issues, dear child. At least mine unaddressed. Let's think about what this could look like. And somehow being able to negotiate some parameters that as best as possible meet the full set of interests. Now, that's probably not gonna be perfect.
in this, right? I mean, that is to say that it may well be that someone has to give a little bit, but I think that there are creative ways that this can work, right? And then thinking about even, you know, getting someone to take a try at it, right? And report back what it was like.
But really trying to engage it as two people on the same side of the table instead of as opposed to on opposing sides where there's a win and a lose here. I think the other thing that doesn't help very much is saying things like, well, when I was a kid, know, they're relevant. Yeah, they're relevant. They're relevant to of the world. know, about the world as we live.
Dr. Cam (23:32.036)
Right.
Dr. Cam (23:37.796)
Yeah, I lived without a phone. Well, yeah, everyone did. Yeah. It's like our grandparents saying I lived without a car. Well, yeah, nobody had a car then.
Bob Bordone (23:47.968)
Yeah, yeah, so I think that that is unhelpful.
Dr. Cam (23:53.243)
Yeah. So this is really about first understanding your teen's perspective. And that doesn't mean you have to agree with it or even understand it in terms of why it's important. You just have to know and acknowledge what it is. And going back to what you said earlier, when we do that affirmation of how we're feeling, that affect labeling, we do it for ourselves. But when we do it for our teens, that also helps them.
calm themselves down as well. Like that's the first step because they know a lot of parents are like, I don't want to get into all these feelings and everything. But the feelings are there whether or not you get into them or not.
Bob Bordone (24:30.062)
Yeah, and I think it's important to, mean, that's the work that parents have to do on their own, right? Is if you can't get into the feelings yourself, then how are you gonna do it with your kid? And what is the lesson you're teaching your kid? That they're not.
Dr. Cam (24:45.04)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (24:50.456)
So I think that that is a really important piece to be able to really talk about that. I think the other question that is I think a really powerful one. Once you've done a really good job hopefully of hearing their interests and sharing your own worries and concerns. If your kid is still like, yeah, but I want my phone, right? Almost to say to them, well, imagine you were in my shoes with my concerns and listening to you.
How would you solve for that if you were my shoes? What ideas would you have for me? One thing that I would just want to say also, which you may notice is I'm asking an open-ended question. What ideas? What thoughts? Not, would this work? Or do you want to keep the phone on Monday and Wednesdays and not on Tuesdays and Thursdays? Yes or no in either ors don't work because they're violating
emotional interest that most people and particularly teens have which is called autonomy. As soon as I feel boxed in, my autonomy has been pinched upon and I'm going to fight that.
Dr. Cam (26:03.734)
yeah, it is instinctual to fight back. think that a lot of people are like, they're being so disrespectful. It's like every fiber in their being is saying, this is not okay to be boxed in like this and not to be heard. So I love that we're modeling, listening to them, understanding what their needs are. What an amazing way to teach them how to
Bob Bordone (26:17.568)
Yeah.
Dr. Cam (26:31.39)
listen to other people, including ourselves, because we get frustrated with our teens. They never listen to me. They never... Well, teens say the same thing about their parents. They never listen to me. So they're not learning how to listen. They're learning how to talk over. The only way to teach them to do that is by modeling it, not by telling them to do it, even though I'm not.
Bob Bordone (26:54.2)
Yeah, absolutely. That is absolutely right. And I think kids will really learn and see that model, right? And in a way that is powerful, you know, and will change them. And it's not what they're expecting either. I mean, they're expecting that one of the reasons why I think people do the fight is the fight is predictable. It's painful, but it's predictable. This is something different and therefore not predictable.
but also means it's more engaging and real.
Dr. Cam (27:26.99)
Yeah. I think one of the things Bob too, and I don't know, we need to address is that being able to get to this resolution and the conversations that you're having and the open-ended questions you're asking for kids, teens to engage in that, there needs to be a level of trust. Otherwise, they will completely shut down and not. So a lot of parents are like, well, I asked these questions and they don't say anything. To me, that's a sign that
the trust isn't there yet. Have you found that in general when it comes to conflict resolution? And how do we address that?
Bob Bordone (28:04.462)
Yeah, I mean, certainly it is much more helpful to have trust there. Um, and if that isn't there, it's going to make it more complicated. I think that if that isn't there, then one of the conversations you have to have is about that. Um, so, and that's an even harder conversation, but it's a conversation we can have. What has, you know, one of the things that feels like is making this tough for both of us.
is a sense of low trust between us. And what is your reaction to that? And how can we work on that? Now, one conversation is not going to build trust. But it just bring that into the room and then coming up with a few things we can each do and then a way of testing that.
Dr. Cam (28:46.608)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (29:03.567)
can be helpful. But if we can't talk about it, we can't really solve it.
Dr. Cam (29:09.604)
Yeah. And I think there's such a big piece of being honest about that because the one thing I see a lot parents will say to their teen, well, you just have to trust me. I'm your parent. You got to trust me, which it doesn't work that way. And we'll also say, I trust my teen completely. And then tell me 10 different ways why they don't trust their teen. And when I point out, but you're not trusting your teen, they go, yes, I do. I trust my teen completely.
So let's get a little bit, what does trust mean?
Bob Bordone (29:38.114)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (29:42.306)
Yeah, I mean, so I think also, right, trust is kind of this belief that each of us are going to do and say what we do, what we say we're going to do, right? And mean what we say we're going to mean. And that's why it can't be built in a moment or in a day. But I think it's a sense of credibility. And I think part of the work of
Proving that is for people to actually map out some specifics about if this, then I'll do this. And if I don't see that happen, I will raise it with you right away. We'll each raise it with each other in a constructive way to make sure that it wasn't because someone did something untrustworthy, but maybe just a misunderstanding of what was expected.
And the idea hopefully is that over time that trust can build. But I think the notion that you have to have trust for agreement is not necessarily true because you can build in structural compliance mechanisms. And again, obviously we're not, a parent-child relationship is not international affairs, but there's some similar kinds of things you can do on both sides.
Dr. Cam (31:09.286)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (31:11.086)
to build that up over.
Dr. Cam (31:13.21)
Yeah. And I think what's really important about this is, and you were talking about compliance mechanisms, and I want to talk about that a little bit about what that means. Because I think for parents, it means if you don't do what I say, then I'm going to do this to you. And I want to see, because having an agreement, you do have to trust the other person's going to do their end of the agreement. And that does not happen both ways.
So what do you mean by this putting in these compliance contingencies to ensure that the agreement's upheld?
Bob Bordone (31:49.87)
Yeah, I mean, it may well be that you set up something where there is some kind of a check-in. And if this check-in happens, then you will get A, B, and C. You'll get a little bit more, right? I also think that there are things that parents can offer. I think it shouldn't just be one way.
Bob Bordone (32:19.8)
but that you would build this in over time so that each time we meet some kind of a benchmark, there's a new thing we need to do. And if we don't, we have to then have a conversation about what has gone.
Dr. Cam (32:33.924)
Yeah, why didn't work? Yeah. I think a lot of parents listen to this and they go, well, now I feel like I'm being the weak one. I'm letting my kid run the show. I'm letting them do whatever they want. I'm giving them too much control and too much authority. And I want to go back to the fact that this is what world leaders use, correct?
Bob Bordone (32:57.95)
Absolutely. And I think that, listen, I mean, there are different models of parenting. And I think that there are ways you can, you know, create some red lines. And I think that parents who will engage in joint or collaborative problem solving with their kids and then clearly demarcate some red lines.
will have a lot of success, actually. think the challenge, right, if every single thing is a red line, that is extremely suffocating and is gonna end up, I think, actually creating a lot more unnecessary battles. On the other hand, I think this should be misunderstood as every single thing is always negotiable.
Mostly because it's actually not, I mean, it's not good for you and it's not good for the family and it's not good for the kid. And so, so I think the more we can kind of let go of the either or thinking, you know, either I win, either I'm the boss or I'm not right. Either I'm the parent or, you know, and the parenting means I always get my way and the child just says, yes, ma'am or yes, sir. I think it's not a healthy way to engage this, but
Yes, there should be some clear red lines and those clear red lines can work in an environment where there's also a domain of things that are discussed, worked out, and negotiated.
Dr. Cam (34:37.19)
Yeah, exactly right. there's a lot of things that your child does feel like they're heard and they're understood. And we can even do that and still have the red lines, say, I hear you, I get this, I still can't move budge on this one. But if it's not everything, it's this one thing, because this is keeping you safe and this is something I can't negotiate, but you're open to so many other things, they hear that.
It gives that way more power than if you're kind of controlling every single thing.
Bob Bordone (35:04.558)
Thank you.
Bob Bordone (35:09.646)
Absolutely, that is 100 % true, right? And I think that in most domains in our life, in relationships, we can pick up what the red lines are and what are the things where there's openness, right? And again, where I think it gets dysfunctional is everything is a red line. Or the child has complete freedom, which is just not what teens need and I think also not what they want.
Dr. Cam (35:35.736)
No, they need to know that you're looking out for them and keeping them safe, just not controlling everything they do. So what have I not asked when it comes to conflict resolution and negotiation that parents need to know?
Bob Bordone (35:38.784)
Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Bordone (35:52.672)
Yeah, so I think you've asked really good questions. I mean, I think the one thing that I would just say to your listeners is that this is definitely very hard work and that it is worth doing for themselves and their kids and their family. So leaning into the discomfort of that is
worth doing, but here's the reason why I want to say all this is because it's going to not go well a lot of the time and that's okay. So I think if any of your listeners try this and it doesn't work and then they're like back next week writing to you saying didn't work. Yeah, because it's tough and be gentle with yourself on it, but also be persistent and determined. Again, I think that analogy of
Dr. Cam (36:37.382)
Right.
Bob Bordone (36:50.424)
Getting yourself into shape or preparing for a marathon, right, is helpful because there's gonna be some days where the workout doesn't go that well and your timing was really bad or you just stopped halfway through. But it doesn't mean you're like, well, I guess I'm not gonna run the marathon now.
Dr. Cam (37:08.174)
Right. It's a skill. It's a skill.
Bob Bordone (37:09.806)
You're like, yeah, it's a skill. It is a skill. so, you know, another analogy I sometimes use, which may land for those of your listeners who know about baseball, but for those who don't write, you know, a good batting average, if you're batting like 400, that's like an amazing batting average, which essentially means that 40 % of the time you're hitting and getting on base, which means 60 % time you're not. And so I just want to put that in people's heads because
Again, if they don't see the BBO, they're not going to try. But if they think that as soon as they try this and it doesn't work, it's like, well, that stuff doesn't work. You know, I just think that it needs more.
Dr. Cam (37:53.115)
Yeah. And for parents, think that BBO to really think about is that relationship with your teen, that ability to teach your teen to be able to be resilient and confident and self-advocate for themselves. And those to me as a parent are my ultimate goals. So I can't think of a bigger one, a bigger reason to do that.
Bob Bordone (38:17.518)
Absolutely. I mean, you are giving your kid the skills to handle difference in the world. And unless you're going to protect them their whole life, they're going to have to deal with it.
Dr. Cam (38:26.32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Cam (38:31.832)
Right. You're teaching them how to protect themselves by doing this, which is the best way to protect them.
Bob Bordone (38:37.582)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think people who have really good conflict handling skills are happy, they're more kind of emotionally self-aware and regulated. And I think one of the things we're losing is that ability because in the social media sphere, it is just easy to cancel someone you disagree with. I don't need to be in relationship with them, but that's actually not consistent with
Dr. Cam (38:59.458)
Yes!
Bob Bordone (39:06.936)
the real world. And if we think we're going to create a world where we're only surrounded by people we agree with and we otherwise eliminate them.
Dr. Cam (39:14.458)
How small do we become?
Bob Bordone (39:16.515)
And we can't function in society that way because it's not the nature of society, right? And we almost see that starting to happen.
Dr. Cam (39:22.63)
We do. Yeah. There's a lot of polarization right now. And that's one thing that we see at the home too, where there's polarization. it's like, so this is the first place where you can really learn for yourself and for your teens. How do we work together even if we have opposing views? Because both of our opinions can be true because there are opinions.
Bob Bordone (39:49.079)
Absolutely.
Dr. Cam (39:49.124)
Both of our perspectives can be true because there are perspectives. So I think it's very important to understand that this both can be true and how do I better understand that perspective? Because it might expand mine. And how cool is that? I'm smarter now. Your team can make you smarter by learning their perspective. Yeah, that's so cool. Thank you so much, Bob. So how can people find you and your book?
Bob Bordone (40:03.49)
Yes, yes, yeah, that's right.
Bob Bordone (40:18.542)
Yeah, so you can find me at my website, which is bobwardone.com or at our book website, which is conflictresiliencebook.com. The book Conflict Resilience is available on Amazon and Barnes Noble and in lots and lots of bookstores. And I actually think it's good for both the parent and the teen. So maybe a reading club with your family. I actually know of a few people who have done it as a reading book club in their family.
Dr. Cam (40:46.31)
That is such a great idea. I love that idea. Is there anything you want to leave parents with that they can do right now when they step away from this episode? To get started.
Bob Bordone (40:57.55)
You know, the one thing I would say, I don't know if you could do it right now, but I think you could, right? For the rest of the day, every time you feel a disagreement with anybody at your workplace or at home, just take stock for yourself. What is your default reaction? And what could I maybe do differently at another time? Right? That little thing starts to increase your awareness.
And I think will over time make you more kind of literate and kind of purposeful in your responses.
Dr. Cam (41:33.402)
Yeah, it's fantastic. Thank you so much, Bob, for joining us.
Bob Bordone (41:36.318)
So great, so great meeting you and thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Cam (41:38.903)
Absolutely.
Do you ever feel like every disagreement with your teen turns into a battlefield or worse? Total silence. What if I told you conflict isn't the problem, it's actually the path to a stronger connection? In today's episode, I'm joined by Bob Burdone, renowned negotiation expert, Harvard Law Senior Fellow and co-author of the bestselling book, Conflict Resilience, Negotiating Disagreement Without Giving Up or Giving In.
Bob spent decades helping people handle high stakes conflict and today he's showing us how those same tools can transform the way we parent our teens. We're talking about how to stop avoiding conflict, not stopping conflict, but stop avoiding conflict. Why discomfort can actually be good for you and your teen and what your reactions might be teaching them without you even realizing it. Trust me, this episode will challenge how you think about arguments, eye rolls, and even those dreaded standoffs.
and it just might change your relationship with your teen for the better. But before we get Bob to spill his secrets, I've got a quick favor to ask of you. If this podcast has ever made you feel seen, supported, or even just a little more confident navigating the chaos of parenting teens, would you hit that follow button? It helps you stay in the loop and it helps me keep bringing you real talk conversations like this. And if something in today's episode strikes a chord,
A quick review helps other parents find us too. All right. Let's hear how conflict can actually strengthen our relationship with our teens. Bob, welcome to the show.
Bob Bordone (01:35.886)
Thank you so much for having me. Great to be here.
Dr. Cam (01:38.124)
Yeah, so first tell us how in the world did you get into conflict resolution?
Bob Bordone (01:43.278)
Yeah, so I cannot say that it was because I liked conflict or was particularly good at it. In fact, I would probably say quite the opposite. So my journey into this work actually started when I was a student at Harvard Law School many, many years ago. And I took a negotiation course that covered both how to negotiate and also how to deal with conflict and disputes. I went into it very much with the idea of
Dr. Cam (01:47.386)
You
Dr. Cam (01:53.638)
Hmm.
Dr. Cam (02:08.464)
Hmm.
Bob Bordone (02:12.59)
I'm gonna learn the tips and the tricks. And then of course in all great learning, it's when you're completely surprised and turn topsy-turvy and that's what happened. And I realized that so much of this was about perspective taking and listening and perceptions and emotions. yeah, I was sold. I was sold for all sorts of reasons. It was interdisciplinary. It was very applied.
It challenged me. And I think at some level I wanted to do work that I felt like was making a difference in the world. And that's not to say that lawyers don't do that because they can for sure. They don't always do that. But this kind of spoke to me.
Dr. Cam (03:00.26)
Yeah. And it is something that we don't tend to learn because like you said, I think most of us try to avoid conflict because we're not great at it or it turns into something really icky and ugly. And I think this is what I see a lot happening in homes. And what I often see with parents is because we're the parent, we win, we shut you down. There is no argument because there's no, there's no sides. It's just, I win. And
I'm not thinking we teach kids how to resolve conflict that way.
Bob Bordone (03:34.958)
think that's right. I I think that one of the challenges is we have a culture where we think that conflict is a bad thing and to be avoided. And I think, you know, for as many times as the way it is engaged is you do it because I said so. And that's just not parents, that's bosses in the workplace, right? That can be leaders. It's either my way or the highway.
But there's also, for as many times as we do that, we see the other thing happen, which is, I'm exhausted, I'm not gonna say anything. Or I'll just let it slide. Or I'll look away. And those on both sides are lost opportunities for connection. They're lost opportunities to discover something that would be valuable. And from a parenting perspective.
think there are lost opportunities to model to your children how they can deal more effectively with conflict in their own lives, whether it's personal relationships or professionally down the road. Because kids are noticing the way the parent handles it, I'm of the age where I have, I don't actually have my own children, but I see lots of parents with teenagers. And maybe because, I mean,
Because of the work that I do, I look at the conflict handling styles and sometimes I think like, my gosh, like you are literally incentivizing your kid to create more trouble because what you do is kind of semi-engage and then cave in and give them something.
Dr. Cam (05:19.654)
Oh, I love this. and I think, so I wanna dig into both sides of the spectrum here because I think you're right, we kinda go there. We've got conflict down. I think we know this part of it quite well. It's the resolution part that we forget about. We just stop conflict bad instead of going, oh my gosh, conflict is an opportunity for resolution, which is problem solving. So let's talk about why do
parents first of all shut down and give up often.
Bob Bordone (05:53.74)
Yeah, I I think there's a whole panoply of possible reasons for this. At the most basic level, right, it's probably their own bad models of how to handle conflict themselves, right? We learn it from generations. I also think in this particular moment that there is a cultural belief that anything that feels uncomfortable
or unpleasant should be avoided. I think that is just objectively untrue and problematic. But if that's one of the beliefs, right, we do that. think, you know, I think third is, listen, mean, parents are tired. And this takes work, right? And so one of the things I would just say, right, and this is, you know, I wrote this book with a brain scientist.
Dr. Cam (06:30.086)
Yeah.
Dr. Cam (06:37.734)
Amen to that.
Bob Bordone (06:49.846)
And one of the things about our brain is that we are trained, the brain trains itself to avoid things that could cause harm, that are unpleasant. And the only way out of that is if we can see what in the book, we borrowed this from Judd Brewer at Stanford, it's called the BBO, the Bigger Better Offer.
If you don't see a bigger, offer for engaging in the discomfort of that conflict when you're exhausted, then you're simply not going to do it. And it's a little bit like, I I have friends who run the Boston Marathon. And when you run the Boston Marathon in April, it means you're doing some pretty heavy training in February. Pretty cold in Boston in February. But when that alarm goes off at 5 a.m. and you have to do that run in the cold,
it's not the pleasantness of the moment that's had to do it, right? It's the bigger, better offer that on April 15th, I'm going to run this marathon. But we have, but there's a rewiring that we need to do around conflict. But if we think there's no upside and it's all bad, then of course we're going to either, if we have the power, shut it down by saying, because I said so, or otherwise look away, avoid it, throw up our hands.
Dr. Cam (07:55.088)
Yeah.
Dr. Cam (08:14.118)
Right. And I think what's interesting is teenagers, A, have more energy typically than we do, so they outlast us, which is why we often just give up. And they do see a better offer because they want to win. And I think we as parents, the first obstacle that I see as parents when it comes to conflict is we misinterpret it as disrespect and defiance rather than having a different opinion, which is extremely healthy, right?
Bob Bordone (08:44.396)
Absolutely. mean any relationship where there are differences of opinion is not a real authentic relationship. And I think that's the other thing that I would say is you're avoiding perhaps in service of the relationship. But actually whenever you avoid there's a side of yourself that is still thinking like I should have done something, I should have said something. So what you're doing is you're
Basically continuing the conflict with yourself bringing it to your pillow, right? Or maybe to your spouse or somebody And you're not actually building a relationship with your child because they're not seeing that side of you and so there's something kind of rich and connective about Entering into the conflict and of course, that's definitely harder to do Mitch at the time with a teenager because as you said, I think that
They may be seeing this in very win-lose terms. They may have put you into the role of kind the enemy. I think one of the pieces of work that you have to do as a parent is reorient your own story about yourself and the role. Be secure enough in your role. Because I think often parents in those teenage years feel like they're losing something. And that feels really challenging.
Dr. Cam (10:07.622)
They do.
Bob Bordone (10:12.11)
But I think, again, seeing the opportunity of the engagement as a real way to be a good parent in the long term, kind of a good friend and mentor to your kids.
Dr. Cam (10:28.196)
Yeah. In fact, one of the things I teach parents is to argue with your kids because arguing is actually a form of respect. Your kids don't argue with you if they disrespect you because they would just do it. They don't need to convince you otherwise. So rather than seeing it as disrespect, seeing it as respect. And I think a lot of times parents don't want to put themselves in a position of losing. And because we don't know how to resolve conflict,
Losing is just the person that winning is the person that outlasts and we tend to not so we either step away because we're gonna lose anyway we can't outlast them or we shut it down with something that we just do a power move and say we're just gonna do a power move and we're still not winning the conversation we're just power moving so I think what we want to do today Bob is I want you to teach us how do we resolve conflict so we can
present it and we still have the opportunity and I think it's not necessary I win, you lose. It's a how do we win together?
Bob Bordone (11:36.248)
Right, absolutely. mean, and I think part of that first invitation is almost a reframe on the conflict as a win-lose binary. Because as soon as we are in that binary, we want to win, and then there has to be a loser. And so I think part of the reframe is, how do I think about
Not what my position is here, whatever it is. You are not on social media in your bedroom alone. Or you're home by 11 o'clock on Friday, whatever it is. But what are the underlying sets of interests that I have as a parent? What are my kids' underlying set of interests? And how can we maximally meet all of those interests?
Dr. Cam (12:32.187)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (12:32.558)
not as a compromise, but as meeting the underlying interests. But when it's framed as, I'll either be home by 11 p.m. or not, then there's gonna be a winner and a loser, right? So this is basic kind of negotiation idea. It's like, we need to go from positions to underlying interests, because that expands and allows for some creativity in the conversation, which doesn't mean there won't be some compromises, but it takes it out of the frame of
somebody made more or less compromises. And that really, in a very prevalent idea that in conflict there's winners and losers, is just a kind of a misunderstanding of what conflict is and could be. And so we need to kind of, I think, undo that first.
Dr. Cam (13:22.502)
agreed because if somebody leaves feeling like the loser, that conflict is gonna continue, because nobody wants to be the loser, nobody. And I think one of the things I see with parents too is when they do an argument and they come up with a solution, their solution resolves their underlying issues as you were talking about, not their teens, and so the teens disregard it because it doesn't help. So when you're saying let's resolve,
This isn't about saying, I'm right, you're wrong. It's about going, if we don't resolve what our teen is arguing about, we're going to have this argument again tomorrow and the next day and the next day. And that's exhausting.
Bob Bordone (14:02.828)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, any kind of sustainable good outcome has to be one that meets all of the party's interests. Otherwise, it's not sustainable. mean, this is what we're about, know, parent-kids relationships, but that's across the board because if you force somebody into something, as you said, they're going to be coming back another day. They're going to be looking for some kind of revenge.
And also, it imposes very high enforcement costs and monitoring costs. And so the more you can reframe this as a way to really try as best as we can, understanding that not every single interest is going to be met, but look at the interest, that gives us this opportunity to engage in something that really is problem solving and really is resolving and sustainable.
Dr. Cam (14:37.146)
Hmm, does. Yeah.
Dr. Cam (15:02.426)
Yeah, it's also teaching our kids to self advocate and voice for themselves and there are studies showing that when kids learn how to argue effectively, they are much more resilient against peer pressure and making bad choices. And a lot of the things we fear as parents that when we shut them down, we're not preparing them to counter those. So let's talk about this. How, what is the?
first step we need to do when we are engaging in a conversation with our team and it's starting to become, conflict is rising and we're starting to get a little annoyed with one another, what do we first do?
Bob Bordone (15:42.616)
Right, so when you're in the moment, the most important thing in that moment, I think, is to actually take a pause. And there's this really incredible research around the value of the pause. Part of what you should be doing is just naming to yourself in that pause. What are the emotions I'm feeling right
So a guy by name of Matt Lieberman at UCLA has done this research. He calls this affective labeling. And the affective labeling, the naming the emotions to yourself, very quickly can reduce the amount of time it takes for you, for the kind of control center in your brain, which to move from the amygdala, which is the emotional center, more to the kind of frontal lobe area, which is a little more common.
The other thing I think it does is gives you a chance to be more purposeful in whatever response you might make. The second thing I would say is, and this is really hard to do, but lean into a listening move instead of an assertiveness move. So curiosity about what's going on for your kid, why something is important to them.
what they might be feeling. I think the third thing I would just say is that after you've done this de-escalation, I think that it's important to say to yourself, is this a good moment for continuing whatever this hard conversation is? Or should we do a little reset? Which is not, this is a micro avoid move, but it's not a macro avoid move, right?
Dr. Cam (17:23.622)
Hmm.
Bob Bordone (17:33.998)
It's coming back at a time when you feel more able to enter into the conversation and when they might be more able to do it well. And, you know, one of the nice things I think about, you know, a parent-child relationship is it's not like it's going to be over tomorrow. So we don't need to. The timing matters. So getting into it at the moment when both of you
are in what we call the period of limbic irritability might not be the right time. You may say, hey, we've calmed down enough. Can we continue this in a different way? But I think it's OK to say, hey, this guy, this has felt heated and challenging. It's important. And because it's important, I want to be able to do this when each of us feels a more
Dr. Cam (18:19.952)
Yeah.
Dr. Cam (18:26.726)
I think that is so critical because when we're both in an emotional state, our reasoning is shut down, right? It goes offline. So if we're both in that emotion, I think that's what happens a lot in conflict is it just becomes this emotional whirlwind and nothing is being accomplished other than more emotion being raised up, right? So there's nothing good that's going to come out of that conversation. So taking that pause, stepping back,
And there is no rush. feels urgent in the moment, but you're right. There's no rush because if we rush into it now, we're prolonging the end game even more so, right?
Bob Bordone (19:07.616)
Absolutely, right? And I think in that moment, when we're in an act react cycle, it's really hard to come up with good outcomes. go to our whatever our defaults are. And one these we talk about in our book are kind of these five common defaults of the five apps, right? Fight, flight, freeze, fawn or fester. And thousands of years ago, when this was an existential threat, maybe that was really helpful.
Dr. Cam (19:20.112)
Take the phone.
Dr. Cam (19:30.267)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (19:37.4)
But in our day-to-day relationships, just going to one of those five Fs without kind of purpose or consideration usually isn't helpful.
Dr. Cam (19:44.505)
Yeah, I'm going to add one more that parents do. Take the phone. It's not an F, but it's a P, it's an F sound. Add that to the thing. That's our go-to default. Okay, so now we're calm. Let's bring up the phone because this is such a huge thing. So let's use this as an example if we can and help walk through this. You want your teen to turn their phone off at night.
Bob Bordone (19:50.915)
That's happening. Totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Cam (20:14.744)
Your teen does not want to turn their phone off at night. And this becomes a battle of the wills every single night. Okay, we're paused. We're going to step back. How do we as parents start this conversation so that we're going to end up in a positive outcome?
Bob Bordone (20:37.806)
Okay, love this, right? So the first thing you want to do is come to it from a perspective of curiosity. So what would that look like? Well, you know, I know we've had this fight a lot. I think what I've never really asked you is why is it important for you to have that phone on? What are your worries about it?
like just say more about the why and to really let them talk about that and reflect that back to them. Then to be able to say after you've reflected it back so you really showed you demonstrated. Not correct.
Dr. Cam (21:21.078)
not correct reflect. I want to make sure we're very clear on that. We're not telling them they're wrong or this is why that's not true. We're reflecting what they've said. Okay.
Bob Bordone (21:25.912)
Yes.
Bob Bordone (21:31.95)
Absolutely. And we're reflecting what we're hearing as the underlying reasons why I might miss something. I'll be seen as whatever, a geek, I don't want to be excluded from my friends, everybody else is doing, whatever it is they say. All of the above, right? And then to be able to say, here are my concerns.
Dr. Cam (21:38.662)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Cam (21:50.01)
Yeah, all of the above, yeah.
Bob Bordone (21:59.054)
And not to address, not to say they're wrong, but my concerns are, you know, proper sleep.
being whatever, sucked into an unhealthy dynamic, et cetera, making the list, right? And then being able to say, so what ideas do you have on how we can address these concerns?
Now, they might just say, have an idea. Let me have my darn phone. Okay, so that would address your issues, dear child. At least mine unaddressed. Let's think about what this could look like. And somehow being able to negotiate some parameters that as best as possible meet the full set of interests. Now, that's probably not gonna be perfect.
in this, right? I mean, that is to say that it may well be that someone has to give a little bit, but I think that there are creative ways that this can work, right? And then thinking about even, you know, getting someone to take a try at it, right? And report back what it was like.
But really trying to engage it as two people on the same side of the table instead of as opposed to on opposing sides where there's a win and a lose here. I think the other thing that doesn't help very much is saying things like, well, when I was a kid, know, they're relevant. Yeah, they're relevant. They're relevant to of the world. know, about the world as we live.
Dr. Cam (23:32.036)
Right.
Dr. Cam (23:37.796)
Yeah, I lived without a phone. Well, yeah, everyone did. Yeah. It's like our grandparents saying I lived without a car. Well, yeah, nobody had a car then.
Bob Bordone (23:47.968)
Yeah, yeah, so I think that that is unhelpful.
Dr. Cam (23:53.243)
Yeah. So this is really about first understanding your teen's perspective. And that doesn't mean you have to agree with it or even understand it in terms of why it's important. You just have to know and acknowledge what it is. And going back to what you said earlier, when we do that affirmation of how we're feeling, that affect labeling, we do it for ourselves. But when we do it for our teens, that also helps them.
calm themselves down as well. Like that's the first step because they know a lot of parents are like, I don't want to get into all these feelings and everything. But the feelings are there whether or not you get into them or not.
Bob Bordone (24:30.062)
Yeah, and I think it's important to, mean, that's the work that parents have to do on their own, right? Is if you can't get into the feelings yourself, then how are you gonna do it with your kid? And what is the lesson you're teaching your kid? That they're not.
Dr. Cam (24:45.04)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (24:50.456)
So I think that that is a really important piece to be able to really talk about that. I think the other question that is I think a really powerful one. Once you've done a really good job hopefully of hearing their interests and sharing your own worries and concerns. If your kid is still like, yeah, but I want my phone, right? Almost to say to them, well, imagine you were in my shoes with my concerns and listening to you.
How would you solve for that if you were my shoes? What ideas would you have for me? One thing that I would just want to say also, which you may notice is I'm asking an open-ended question. What ideas? What thoughts? Not, would this work? Or do you want to keep the phone on Monday and Wednesdays and not on Tuesdays and Thursdays? Yes or no in either ors don't work because they're violating
emotional interest that most people and particularly teens have which is called autonomy. As soon as I feel boxed in, my autonomy has been pinched upon and I'm going to fight that.
Dr. Cam (26:03.734)
yeah, it is instinctual to fight back. think that a lot of people are like, they're being so disrespectful. It's like every fiber in their being is saying, this is not okay to be boxed in like this and not to be heard. So I love that we're modeling, listening to them, understanding what their needs are. What an amazing way to teach them how to
Bob Bordone (26:17.568)
Yeah.
Dr. Cam (26:31.39)
listen to other people, including ourselves, because we get frustrated with our teens. They never listen to me. They never... Well, teens say the same thing about their parents. They never listen to me. So they're not learning how to listen. They're learning how to talk over. The only way to teach them to do that is by modeling it, not by telling them to do it, even though I'm not.
Bob Bordone (26:54.2)
Yeah, absolutely. That is absolutely right. And I think kids will really learn and see that model, right? And in a way that is powerful, you know, and will change them. And it's not what they're expecting either. I mean, they're expecting that one of the reasons why I think people do the fight is the fight is predictable. It's painful, but it's predictable. This is something different and therefore not predictable.
but also means it's more engaging and real.
Dr. Cam (27:26.99)
Yeah. I think one of the things Bob too, and I don't know, we need to address is that being able to get to this resolution and the conversations that you're having and the open-ended questions you're asking for kids, teens to engage in that, there needs to be a level of trust. Otherwise, they will completely shut down and not. So a lot of parents are like, well, I asked these questions and they don't say anything. To me, that's a sign that
the trust isn't there yet. Have you found that in general when it comes to conflict resolution? And how do we address that?
Bob Bordone (28:04.462)
Yeah, I mean, certainly it is much more helpful to have trust there. Um, and if that isn't there, it's going to make it more complicated. I think that if that isn't there, then one of the conversations you have to have is about that. Um, so, and that's an even harder conversation, but it's a conversation we can have. What has, you know, one of the things that feels like is making this tough for both of us.
is a sense of low trust between us. And what is your reaction to that? And how can we work on that? Now, one conversation is not going to build trust. But it just bring that into the room and then coming up with a few things we can each do and then a way of testing that.
Dr. Cam (28:46.608)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (29:03.567)
can be helpful. But if we can't talk about it, we can't really solve it.
Dr. Cam (29:09.604)
Yeah. And I think there's such a big piece of being honest about that because the one thing I see a lot parents will say to their teen, well, you just have to trust me. I'm your parent. You got to trust me, which it doesn't work that way. And we'll also say, I trust my teen completely. And then tell me 10 different ways why they don't trust their teen. And when I point out, but you're not trusting your teen, they go, yes, I do. I trust my teen completely.
So let's get a little bit, what does trust mean?
Bob Bordone (29:38.114)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (29:42.306)
Yeah, I mean, so I think also, right, trust is kind of this belief that each of us are going to do and say what we do, what we say we're going to do, right? And mean what we say we're going to mean. And that's why it can't be built in a moment or in a day. But I think it's a sense of credibility. And I think part of the work of
Proving that is for people to actually map out some specifics about if this, then I'll do this. And if I don't see that happen, I will raise it with you right away. We'll each raise it with each other in a constructive way to make sure that it wasn't because someone did something untrustworthy, but maybe just a misunderstanding of what was expected.
And the idea hopefully is that over time that trust can build. But I think the notion that you have to have trust for agreement is not necessarily true because you can build in structural compliance mechanisms. And again, obviously we're not, a parent-child relationship is not international affairs, but there's some similar kinds of things you can do on both sides.
Dr. Cam (31:09.286)
Yeah.
Bob Bordone (31:11.086)
to build that up over.
Dr. Cam (31:13.21)
Yeah. And I think what's really important about this is, and you were talking about compliance mechanisms, and I want to talk about that a little bit about what that means. Because I think for parents, it means if you don't do what I say, then I'm going to do this to you. And I want to see, because having an agreement, you do have to trust the other person's going to do their end of the agreement. And that does not happen both ways.
So what do you mean by this putting in these compliance contingencies to ensure that the agreement's upheld?
Bob Bordone (31:49.87)
Yeah, I mean, it may well be that you set up something where there is some kind of a check-in. And if this check-in happens, then you will get A, B, and C. You'll get a little bit more, right? I also think that there are things that parents can offer. I think it shouldn't just be one way.
Bob Bordone (32:19.8)
but that you would build this in over time so that each time we meet some kind of a benchmark, there's a new thing we need to do. And if we don't, we have to then have a conversation about what has gone.
Dr. Cam (32:33.924)
Yeah, why didn't work? Yeah. I think a lot of parents listen to this and they go, well, now I feel like I'm being the weak one. I'm letting my kid run the show. I'm letting them do whatever they want. I'm giving them too much control and too much authority. And I want to go back to the fact that this is what world leaders use, correct?
Bob Bordone (32:57.95)
Absolutely. And I think that, listen, I mean, there are different models of parenting. And I think that there are ways you can, you know, create some red lines. And I think that parents who will engage in joint or collaborative problem solving with their kids and then clearly demarcate some red lines.
will have a lot of success, actually. think the challenge, right, if every single thing is a red line, that is extremely suffocating and is gonna end up, I think, actually creating a lot more unnecessary battles. On the other hand, I think this should be misunderstood as every single thing is always negotiable.
Mostly because it's actually not, I mean, it's not good for you and it's not good for the family and it's not good for the kid. And so, so I think the more we can kind of let go of the either or thinking, you know, either I win, either I'm the boss or I'm not right. Either I'm the parent or, you know, and the parenting means I always get my way and the child just says, yes, ma'am or yes, sir. I think it's not a healthy way to engage this, but
Yes, there should be some clear red lines and those clear red lines can work in an environment where there's also a domain of things that are discussed, worked out, and negotiated.
Dr. Cam (34:37.19)
Yeah, exactly right. there's a lot of things that your child does feel like they're heard and they're understood. And we can even do that and still have the red lines, say, I hear you, I get this, I still can't move budge on this one. But if it's not everything, it's this one thing, because this is keeping you safe and this is something I can't negotiate, but you're open to so many other things, they hear that.
It gives that way more power than if you're kind of controlling every single thing.
Bob Bordone (35:04.558)
Thank you.
Bob Bordone (35:09.646)
Absolutely, that is 100 % true, right? And I think that in most domains in our life, in relationships, we can pick up what the red lines are and what are the things where there's openness, right? And again, where I think it gets dysfunctional is everything is a red line. Or the child has complete freedom, which is just not what teens need and I think also not what they want.
Dr. Cam (35:35.736)
No, they need to know that you're looking out for them and keeping them safe, just not controlling everything they do. So what have I not asked when it comes to conflict resolution and negotiation that parents need to know?
Bob Bordone (35:38.784)
Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Bordone (35:52.672)
Yeah, so I think you've asked really good questions. I mean, I think the one thing that I would just say to your listeners is that this is definitely very hard work and that it is worth doing for themselves and their kids and their family. So leaning into the discomfort of that is
worth doing, but here's the reason why I want to say all this is because it's going to not go well a lot of the time and that's okay. So I think if any of your listeners try this and it doesn't work and then they're like back next week writing to you saying didn't work. Yeah, because it's tough and be gentle with yourself on it, but also be persistent and determined. Again, I think that analogy of
Dr. Cam (36:37.382)
Right.
Bob Bordone (36:50.424)
Getting yourself into shape or preparing for a marathon, right, is helpful because there's gonna be some days where the workout doesn't go that well and your timing was really bad or you just stopped halfway through. But it doesn't mean you're like, well, I guess I'm not gonna run the marathon now.
Dr. Cam (37:08.174)
Right. It's a skill. It's a skill.
Bob Bordone (37:09.806)
You're like, yeah, it's a skill. It is a skill. so, you know, another analogy I sometimes use, which may land for those of your listeners who know about baseball, but for those who don't write, you know, a good batting average, if you're batting like 400, that's like an amazing batting average, which essentially means that 40 % of the time you're hitting and getting on base, which means 60 % time you're not. And so I just want to put that in people's heads because
Again, if they don't see the BBO, they're not going to try. But if they think that as soon as they try this and it doesn't work, it's like, well, that stuff doesn't work. You know, I just think that it needs more.
Dr. Cam (37:53.115)
Yeah. And for parents, think that BBO to really think about is that relationship with your teen, that ability to teach your teen to be able to be resilient and confident and self-advocate for themselves. And those to me as a parent are my ultimate goals. So I can't think of a bigger one, a bigger reason to do that.
Bob Bordone (38:17.518)
Absolutely. I mean, you are giving your kid the skills to handle difference in the world. And unless you're going to protect them their whole life, they're going to have to deal with it.
Dr. Cam (38:26.32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Cam (38:31.832)
Right. You're teaching them how to protect themselves by doing this, which is the best way to protect them.
Bob Bordone (38:37.582)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think people who have really good conflict handling skills are happy, they're more kind of emotionally self-aware and regulated. And I think one of the things we're losing is that ability because in the social media sphere, it is just easy to cancel someone you disagree with. I don't need to be in relationship with them, but that's actually not consistent with
Dr. Cam (38:59.458)
Yes!
Bob Bordone (39:06.936)
the real world. And if we think we're going to create a world where we're only surrounded by people we agree with and we otherwise eliminate them.
Dr. Cam (39:14.458)
How small do we become?
Bob Bordone (39:16.515)
And we can't function in society that way because it's not the nature of society, right? And we almost see that starting to happen.
Dr. Cam (39:22.63)
We do. Yeah. There's a lot of polarization right now. And that's one thing that we see at the home too, where there's polarization. it's like, so this is the first place where you can really learn for yourself and for your teens. How do we work together even if we have opposing views? Because both of our opinions can be true because there are opinions.
Bob Bordone (39:49.079)
Absolutely.
Dr. Cam (39:49.124)
Both of our perspectives can be true because there are perspectives. So I think it's very important to understand that this both can be true and how do I better understand that perspective? Because it might expand mine. And how cool is that? I'm smarter now. Your team can make you smarter by learning their perspective. Yeah, that's so cool. Thank you so much, Bob. So how can people find you and your book?
Bob Bordone (40:03.49)
Yes, yes, yeah, that's right.
Bob Bordone (40:18.542)
Yeah, so you can find me at my website, which is bobwardone.com or at our book website, which is conflictresiliencebook.com. The book Conflict Resilience is available on Amazon and Barnes Noble and in lots and lots of bookstores. And I actually think it's good for both the parent and the teen. So maybe a reading club with your family. I actually know of a few people who have done it as a reading book club in their family.
Dr. Cam (40:46.31)
That is such a great idea. I love that idea. Is there anything you want to leave parents with that they can do right now when they step away from this episode? To get started.
Bob Bordone (40:57.55)
You know, the one thing I would say, I don't know if you could do it right now, but I think you could, right? For the rest of the day, every time you feel a disagreement with anybody at your workplace or at home, just take stock for yourself. What is your default reaction? And what could I maybe do differently at another time? Right? That little thing starts to increase your awareness.
And I think will over time make you more kind of literate and kind of purposeful in your responses.
Dr. Cam (41:33.402)
Yeah, it's fantastic. Thank you so much, Bob, for joining us.
Bob Bordone (41:36.318)
So great, so great meeting you and thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Cam (41:38.903)
Absolutely.
