Work is Active

[00:00:00] Working Hours: What did you want to be when you grew up?

[00:00:02] Tina: What did I want to be? I always wanted to be a police woman, but I was too... 'cos I'm old. I, I'm quite old. I was too small.

[00:00:10] Working Hours: Right

[00:00:11] Tina: I'm only five foot, one and a half. And years and years ago when I was like 6, 17, 18, too small. I always fancied being a police woman.

[00:00:20] Working Hours: So, how tall did you have to be to be a policewoman?

[00:00:22] Tina: I think it's five foot five or something.

[00:00:25] Working Hours: Right

[00:00:25] Tina: And I was just going to get nowhere near that.

[00:00:28] Working Hours: Yeah

[00:00:29] Tina: Um, but I always fancied that. I mean, I think, that years later, I actually went for a job in, um, a control room at Wakefield. Um, but I didn't get through. But I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be a policewoman.

[00:00:43] Working Hours: Leeds, Leeds, Leeds! What is happening? Welcome to episode 23 of Working Hours. A show about a place called Leeds, a time called now and an activity called work. My name is Simon and you're listening to my guest, Tina Leslie. This is another zoom interview, recorded on the 2nd of November, 2021.

[00:01:02] Working Hours: It's taken me some time to get to this and to get to putting this and the next few episodes out.

[00:01:07] Working Hours: There's a lot of reasons for this, some professional and related to production others personal. This project is, at the moment, a hard slog. At least it has been recently and yes a slog I made for myself. But, I do have to find the time, energy and patience to make this podcast. It's not super easy to get guests and it's not super easy to find an audience.

[00:01:26] Working Hours: It costs money to create, produce and host this show. So there are very strong incentives to stop doing this podcast, but there are also some much better reasons to keep on going.

[00:01:36] Working Hours: I do find this project fascinating and I believe there are others out there in my home city who would be likewise fascinated.

[00:01:44] Working Hours: People who also want to hear from real people. From the people who, like them, do the actual work. Not people selling books and talking abstractly about us all as if we're just data, but actually listening directly to people in or from our city. Hearing from them, from you, about all the differences and similarities in our roles and workplaces. Hearing about the sort of work you do and why you do it.

[00:02:09] Working Hours: Hearing about my neighbour's day. Taking a snapshot of someone's career at a point in time. Hearing directly from a person about how what happens in the media actually affects their work.

[00:02:19] Working Hours: Tina was great to hear from and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I did.

[00:02:23] Working Hours: Tina Leslie is a former call centre worker and community development worker. Currently she is a fitness instructor and public health worker. She's also the Founder of Freedom for Girls. Freedom for Girls' mission and aims are "to support those who menstruate by challenging the stigmas, taboos and gender inequalities associated with menstruation through education, provision of menstrual health management solutions and actively being at the forefront of the wider campaign against period poverty".

[00:02:51] Working Hours: I wanted to get the language right there.

[00:02:53] Working Hours: To find out more about Freedom for Girls go to www.freedom4girls - that's the number 4 - .co.uk.

[00:03:02] Working Hours: If you're a Loiner and you're listening to me and you think you might be able to answer questions you already know all the answers to please get in touch to arrange a time to record for this show.

[00:03:10] Working Hours: Email me at workinghourspod@western-studios.com add a short bio and some suggestions of your availability. Also drop me a line if you have any queries or feedback, complaints or compliments. If you can be generous and wonderful enough to leave me a review on apple or Amazon, then please do so. If you can leave a really good review for me, please do. That would be really good.

[00:03:35] Working Hours: So, what is it that you're doing now then?

[00:03:38] Tina: Well, what is it that I'm not doing now? Is more the question. So my day job is I work in public health. I'm a health improvement practitioner. I work in the inner east of Leeds. I've worked there for 13 years. I'm also a fitness instructor, so I teach many different things.

[00:03:56] Tina: Circuit training, hit training, Pilates, you name it. Um, spin and that sort of thing. I also run. I founded Freedom for Girls, period poverty charity. That's quite a bit of a full-time job as well. And as well as that, I volunteer a lot with food banks. Well a lot since COVID anyway, so yeah.

[00:04:16] Tina: Do a lot of stuff with food banks and also other items that people are really needing nowadays that we wouldn't think about normally.

[00:04:25] Working Hours: So let's start with the health and fitness first. Which came first, the health or the fitness? Were you a fitness person who decided to get in to health or?

[00:04:35] Tina: No. Well, really, for the first 25 years of my working life I worked in call centres.

[00:04:43] Working Hours: Right

[00:04:43] Tina: And I thought that that's the only thing I could do, 'cos I left school many, many years ago, 40 years ago with no GCSEs or anything like that. So I just thought that I couldn't do anything. I couldn't achieve anything. And that's all I could do. I could sell.

[00:04:57] Tina: I've got the gift. I had the gift of the gabs, so people used to tell me I could sell ice to the Eskimos. So I sold a lot of things. I started with sewing machine needles. Would you believe? No. The first job I had was, um, selling steel girders.

[00:05:10] Working Hours: Right

[00:05:11] Tina: And then I sold sowing machine parts and needles.

[00:05:14] Tina: And then I went on to do selling bank accounts at First Direct. So yeah. The fitness stuff came later. Would you believe? When I was 40. You know when people say life begins at forty? Well it certainly did for me. It was just very strange time. So yeah. At school, I was always like quite athletic.

[00:05:33] Tina: I used to like sports, used to like swimming. But over those 25 years I didn't really do a lot and then when I got to 40, I had my third child and I put on like five stone in weight and I hated it because I'd never been really big. So I decided to go to the gym. So we had a gym at the bottom of our street.

[00:05:52] Tina: So I went and joined that and started working out. And I started going to classes and there was, these two amazing fitness instructors there. And I just thought, do you know what, I could probably do that. I don't know why, but I thought I could do it. So at the time I was on quite a low wage and I could get loads of college courses free.

[00:06:13] Tina: It was when, working families, tax credit actually helped you rather than hindered you. So they used to offer you lots of things, that they don't offer you now. So I went and did actual, about seven or eight courses at Thomas Danby, what it used to be, in 18 months. So I realized that actually I was quite a practical person, you know. I can't write reports and I can't do degrees, but I can draw, stick men and teach people how to exercise.

[00:06:40] Tina: And so that actually came first, and I did lose my five stone and everything like that, and I became a run leader and lots of other things like that. And then through that, I dunno. I suppose a few different things. I got a job as a community development worker. Never thought I would ever become a community development worker, but it was a case of, I started doing some exercise classes in the community while I was doing my courses. While I was still had my job at First Direct, which is where I worked.

[00:07:12] Tina: Um, and this woman came up to me. She said, oh you're a natural, I think you, you, be really good at the community development work and I said, I don't even know what that is. She said, well I'm leaving in six months. I'm going to New Zealand. So I'm going to show you what I do, 'cos I know you can do it.

[00:07:28] Tina: Anyway, so basically that's what happened. And I was just a natural. You know, everybody says, you've got one thing good in you, that you can do in your life. I think that was what mine was. I could speak to the people. I was good at talking and getting people motivated.

[00:07:44] Tina: So I actually got her job six months later, and that's when my actual life turned round because, my, my wage doubled overnight from being in a call centre to actually being a community development worker. So yeah, that's how it all started really. And then what happened was after 18 months, 'cos I had three children and a mortgage and it was a funded job and I'd never had a funded job. I thought, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? So I applied for this job in public health as a health improvement practitioner and got that job amazingly enough. I did do NLP and stuff like that to try and, overcome my fears of like, I'm not worthy of this job because I'm... I always think I'm... thought, I'm really, really thick. Because I never got any qualifications.

[00:08:30] Tina: And that's why even today I'm still the same. I'm really... but I've actually realized now, I think I've got some sort of dyslexia, or dyspraxia or ADHD that I don't learn the same as people. Other people. I can do practical things, but not, um, yeah, other stuff.

[00:08:47] Working Hours: Yeah. I'm dyslexic dyspraxia and it didn't like, it wasn't shown up until I was doing my degree as a mature student.

[00:08:56] Working Hours: So I was in my thirties, before it was diagnosed and if it had been diagnosed during school, I would've had a totally different sort of outcomes in school. Um, and you just think of all those people, like everyone in all those classes all those years ago, they'd just, you know, nothing gets picked up.

[00:09:14] Tina: No. And I, and I always thought, there was like more. The older I got, the more, I thought there was something wrong with me because I could read stuff and understand it, but not write it.

[00:09:25] Working Hours: Right,

[00:09:26] Tina: I get this block and I can read something and then only take the first bit.

[00:09:31] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:09:32] Tina: Um, and then it just, everything goes all over the place. And it's, actually to write it down is...

[00:09:37] Tina: And it's only in the last few years that I've thought, we'll actually is there something not quite right? It's like my wi... You know, like your brain isn't wired up. How can people remember? That's why I was never good at exams. 'Cos when, you know, 40... everything was exams. In fact, apart from the 16 plus, which was geography, which, 'cos, it was multiple choice, I passed that. So yeah, so it's very practical and that, and I've got lots of level two and level threes in fitness instructors and you know, um, exams. But that was all practical stuff. I think, you know, nowadays there's a lot to be learned by that I think. And that there still are... I still am not diagnosed, but still I know there's something wrong with me.

[00:10:15] Tina: But actually would you believe in the end of September, I did sign up for a degree?

[00:10:20] Working Hours: Right. Cool.

[00:10:21] Tina: Bit ridiculous. But, it's a degree in what I've been doing for the last 13 years. So it's health in society.

[00:10:27] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:10:27] Tina: And I am really, really struggling and I really keep... I mean, I've already said I don't want to, after two weeks, I said, I can't do it.

[00:10:33] Tina: I love the... You know, I love the lectures and I understand it all, but actually I, my head doesn't get round the reading and I'm like, it puts me off. And I think that's almost like my ADHD. You just, haven't got, I've got a concentration level of a gnat I think.

[00:10:51] Working Hours: So, uh, yeah. I can't remember how I did it.

[00:10:55] Working Hours: Yeah, it was someone, while I was on my course was kind of like, you should probably get yourself tested for stuff. And then once you've got that kind of diagnosis, then you can kind of get the support. But I think it's probably, like, if you're doing the degree, I really enjoyed my degree.

[00:11:08] Working Hours: And I think, you know, I think anyone would normally get quite a lot out of a degree, especially when you're doing it later. So if you do want to continue, I think it's probably worth, you know, getting it looked at and...

[00:11:19] Tina: Yeah. I mean, I've, I said that to the course leader, actually. I said, you know, she said, oh well, we'll help you with access and I've said to her about, you know, all the fears that I've got about doing it. And she said, oh yeah, we'll help you. We'll help you. It's like, no, but do I need to get diagnosed? And then obviously you have to pay to get diagnosed.

[00:11:34] Working Hours: Yep.

[00:11:35] Tina: Um, and it's like, you know, when I look through all of the Leeds, of the uni stuff, he said, oh yeah, if you, if you've been diagnosed this, we can help you with that.

[00:11:42] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:11:43] Tina: But it's like, well, actually... well I haven't been diagnosed. So how are you going to help me? You know it's like!?

[00:11:48] Working Hours: Yeah. I think Student Services can potentially put some money towards or they can recommend like the educational... But I don't know. It was ages ago when I did it. And the rules change every five seconds, don't they?

[00:11:59] Tina: Yeah.

[00:11:59] Tina: Exactly and they're all business now aren't they? It's all

[00:12:01] Working Hours: Yeah

[00:12:01] Tina: Just a business. Like massive. We won't go there. We won't go into like, you know, universities are just there to you know, like, get loads of money from students.

[00:12:14] Tina: But I'm not paying for it. So my work is paying for it.

[00:12:19] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:12:19] Working Hours: They'll pay for you to be tested, no doubt. Surely?

[00:12:21] Tina: I don't know. I, I might look into it.

[00:12:23] Working Hours: Yeah, 'ave a look through the work policies on learning and development stuff and see. Look, it says this here.

[00:12:28] Working Hours: That you forgot to update.

[00:12:30] Tina: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's really funny, 'cos during lockdown.

[00:12:34] Tina: Um, my, me and my friends used to go walking. Well we still do. We've done it for 18 months. Every morning before work, we'd go out at seven o'clock and walk round the park. And another friend said, oh, I think you've got ADHD. I'll send you a questionnaire. Anyway, she sent me this questionnaire and as we were walking around, I did this questionnaire and it's like, ding! ADHD. I'm not really OCD about anything as in, you know? Um, well, I suppose I sort of am, but yeah, it's quite interesting, isn't it? When you do a questionnaire and something, says ooh! It's almost like, almost like a label, but it's not because it was only a questionnaire. It wasn't like...

[00:13:16] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:13:16] Tina: ...a diagnosis or anything.

[00:13:19] Tina: Anyway, that's by the by going off talking shit, like, what are we talking about? But it's quite interesting anyway.

[00:13:25] Working Hours: Yeah. It's an interesting diversion.

[00:13:26] Tina: 'Cos I think a lot of people, like you say at school, people just aren't practical. I mean, some people are practical and some people are very good at, you know, writing and things like that. I was never good. I can remember numbers, but not words.

[00:13:40] Working Hours: Yeah. Well, I mean people's brains are just wired differently, you know, everyone everyone's kind of wired a bit differently.

[00:13:45] Tina: Mmm

[00:13:46] Working Hours: So like it must have been a little bit overwhelming to then go into a job in public health. I mean, were you doing sort of health work in the...

[00:13:54] Tina: No.

[00:13:55] Working Hours: Community development work?

[00:13:56] Tina: So the community development work was like, my, my title was, um, what was it? Um, ooh, I can't remember what it was now, what was it? It was, um, uh, physical activity, community development worker. And that's what it was. So basically what I had to do is get the whole of Chapletown and Harehills physically active. Which I did quite well.

[00:14:20] Tina: I mean; at one point we were... I was, I'd set up over like 21 sessions a week in different places. You know, doing things. And I, and I also did other stuff as well. So I also did, um, so not just doing the fitness stuff. I organized, um, like, um, I suppose, healthy... Health. Like I suppose, unity... community unity days and things like that.

[00:14:45] Tina: And I, I work quite closely with public health because a lot of public health funding goes towards third sector organizations. To put stuff on, you know, so like community days and like, um, weight management things. So I sort of knew a little bit about it and I'd worked quite closely with some people and I'd done, which is, it was very innovative in the day. I did, um, um, a sort of projects called Mood-ments.

[00:15:14] Tina: And it was about, um, getting men who were, who had low mood into doing physical activity and getting together because they were quite, um, isolated. Um, so that was quite well before its time. And that was a public health funded thing then and that worked really well. And that's, we're going back 13 years, 14 years now. Now it's a massive thing, but then it was like, you know well this is really, really new, but it was a gap.

[00:15:40] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:15:41] Tina: Um, but yes, so going into then public health, it was quite scary because I didn't even know what it was. It took me two years to actually really understand what it was. Because most people in public health have a Masters. I didn't. You know? So you have to have a Master's or, ‘cos I was only a practitioner um, I didn't need a, um, a degree.

[00:16:02] Tina: Which was quite good. And also I did a lot of practical things that, and I, because I knew a lot of people in the community already. Because I'd worked in the community. It really helped with my public health role. There was almost like an extension of that, but it was just not working with...

[00:16:19] Tina: It was working with organizations, not people.

[00:16:22] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:16:23] Tina: So it's like a step up. You know, community development is talk, you know, it's actually working with people on the ground. Whereas, um, public health is more working with the organizations that are working with the people on the ground. And it took me a long while to sort of understand that.

[00:16:37] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:16:37] Working Hours: Did it feel like just a sort of natural progression to kind of go into that role or was it more like you should really do this, and you kind of got pushed that way or?

[00:16:48] Tina: I think the reason why. I mean, I actually took a wage cut to do it. But I realize that actually, because at the time... Public health is now in the council, it was in the NHS to start with. When I, when my job function then changed, since the council. And it was a case of, at the time, I took a wage cut but actually over the next two years I earnt more.

[00:17:09] Working Hours: Mhm.

[00:17:10] Tina: That, and also it was the funded thing. I think I was just, I just thought, I just need to do this because it's a proper, proper job and I've got a kid, you know. I've got a mortgage and three children and I'll just have a go at it, you know. But actually I really enjoyed it because you cannot, you always like make it your own, you know. Obviously you have objectives, but you know, tackling health inequalities is, you know, massive.

[00:17:34] Working Hours: Yeah

[00:17:35] Tina: And actually 13 years later, we're doing the same old stuff as we were 13 years ago. This has not got any better.

[00:17:41] Working Hours: And as well, you're into, you know, like you say, making the job your own. You were in at a level of a role where you do have that autonomy where they're kind of a like well, we expect you to bring ideas to the table.

[00:17:52] Working Hours: I mean; did you get that... Did you, were you always sort of front line when you we're in the call centres or did you sort of get into management, supervision, anything like that?

[00:18:00] Tina: No. I mean; I did... I was always on the phones. Apart from, I did a little bit of training. I did some fraud authentication training, which was really interesting.

[00:18:09] Working Hours: Mmm

[00:18:09] Tina: You know, like, you know, trying to catch people out who were doing fraudulent applications and stuff.

[00:18:15] Tina: So I did a little bit of training, but that's all I did. I didn't go into management. I never thought I was clever enough to do management. I still aren't. I'm still not very good. I'm too soft. So yes, that's fine. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah, you do it. Um, so yeah, and I didn't, um, and I'm not, I think I'm, I'm not a competitive person really.

[00:18:36] Tina: You know, I know my, it's really weird, but I know my own limits. I know what I can do I know what I can't do. And what I can't do I get other people to help me do that.

[00:18:44] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:45] Tina: And, empower them to do it because actually I can't. I'm rubbish, you know, at somethings. And I understand that. It doesn't bother me, whereas other people would be like, I think and that's my, you know, that's almost like I just don't have time to do it. I just need somebody else to help me.

[00:19:01] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:19:01] Tina: And so, yeah. And I think it's so, you know, and that is like a good quality 'cos, you know, you need to work together to do stuff, to get things done. You can't do it all on your own.

[00:19:11] Working Hours: Yeah. So we'll stay on this for a little bit longer and then we'll move into Freedom for Girls.

[00:19:17] Working Hours: We should cover COVID and we should cover the lock down. If you want to talk about Freedom for Girls during this as well, feel free to bring that up

[00:19:22] Tina: Yeah

[00:19:22] Working Hours: ...even though we've not really got into it yet. What was the lockdown like for you and what happened? Was it just a matter of stopping everything, waiting and then seeing, okay, well we're not necessarily going to open in a week, so we have to change all our plans? Like, how did it go for you?

[00:19:37] Tina: For me? It was like, oh my gosh, this is awful. This is going to be... I mean, before lockdown, you know, you just did your stuff like you did. I still have, you know, we're still doing Freedom for Girls, I was still doing my job, but, you know, we were doing different things. When COVID hit it was like, right. Okay. You know, we need to, we were doing different stuff in public health. You know, everything went to, you know, first of all, protecting people. So doing a little bit of the health promotion around, you know, staying indoors, protecting yourself. Making sure shops and things like that, were COVID secure. So I was always out, I was like out on the street, you know, going to shops and giving them posters to say, you need to, you know, wear a mask and wash your hands and all that stuff.

[00:20:23] Tina: I was doing all that anyway and then... So I was always out. I wasn't, you know, everybody else in public health was trapped in to their little offices but I was out and about, and I just thought, oh gosh, I need to do some... you know, this is really bad.

[00:20:34] Tina: But, when the testing came out, I started doing all the testing. So I was out opening the testing stations. We were doing surge testing. You know, when all the new variants came along. I was, you know, like organized, not organizing, but I was there, you know, like supporting. We were doing door knocking and this and that and the other. I was down at, we had a big testing centre down at Mandela.

[00:20:57] Tina: I don't know if you remember about last August, September time when, all the kids went back to school? So we had a testing centre down there and it was just manic because everybody who came back to school with a cough, was queuing outside Mandela centre. We had children, 50 people a day wanting to be tested because they wouldn't let 'em back to school.

[00:21:15] Tina: So I was there running about like, yeah. So it was, it, it was really busy for me. Not just on that level, but also on the Freedom for Girls level, but also on another level as well. So with Freedom for Girls, before lockdown, before COVID, we were delivering about 500 packs a month. That's period packs. And then couple of months into, I don't know if you know, but you remember the toilet paper issue in lockdown?

[00:21:42] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah Yeah.

[00:21:42] Tina: So there was a period products buying issue as well, but that never actually came out. So everybody like bought pads up until their menopause and stuff like that. So there was none on the shelves.

[00:21:51] Tina: So, it was really, really difficult. You know, people have been on furlough. It was just awful. And then, so we went, we ramped up to delivering 2000 packs a month, but we have to do that differently because obviously there's nowhere open. So all the organizations have retract... retracted, that we normally deliver to.

[00:22:13] Tina: You know, there was no face to face. People weren't going to those community centres where we delivered, we weren't going to organizations. So we, I had like, um, a network of people, women, um, sort of like a WhatsApp. I created a WhatsApp group with all like, um, sort of leaders of communities and I said, right, okay, we can still deliver period pads, just let me know.

[00:22:34] Tina: And what we did is we ended up finding people in communities who could deliver to their communities. So we would deliver like, I don't know, 80 packs to somebody in the Swahili community. Um, and they, that, that lady then would deliver, you know, ring up all her friends and say, I've got some pads.

[00:22:53] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:22:53] Tina: Either come and collect them from the end of my drive or I'll drop them off at the end of yours.

[00:22:57] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:22:58] Tina: So it became a very much everybody working together. Because your periods, don't stop in pandemics, unfortunately.

[00:23:05] Tina: And then, so I was still doing my day job. Still doing that, but then I realized about a month or two, maybe April, May time? That there was a lot of kids, that I deal with. So I, I work in the inner East of Leeds, which is Chapeltown, Harehills, Gipton, you know, the most deprived areas. That a lot of kids were at home with nothing to do because they weren't, they didn't have any money.

[00:23:25] Tina: Parents didn't have any money. So, I thought, right, these kids need stuff to do. So put a thi... like a call out on Facebook, to some different Facebook pages and said, oh, I'm doing a collection for kids who need something to do. You know, activity parks. 'Because that was also what had happened with the people who I was delivering the packs to. They're saying we've got kids here that have got nothing to do. They're pulling their hair out, we can't go out der-der-duh Um, so, um, I managed to, oh it was ridiculous, in four days, get about 10,000 items.

[00:23:59] Working Hours: God

[00:24:00] Tina: Um, and remember like last year, last, last year it was really hot and, you know, all through summer wasn't it? So I went to my friend's front garden, um, and we've got all these toys and activity packs out and I had a list of loads and loads of kids. You know, their gender and their age and put packs of stuff together. Um, and then delivered them all out. So, yeah, that was a bit of a why the heck have I done that? But I did. You know when you... But then as those people say, well, you know they... It's all right, saying, I'll go on the zoom to do, you know, to do, your work or your classroom work.

[00:24:32] Tina: But you know, you don't... Some families have one brick phone between the whole lot of them. They've got nothing. So they couldn't do it. You know, they didn't have anything. And then they didn't have any food. So I managed to get, um, food every week from, uh, um, a culture. So it was like, um, they started up a cultural food hub.

[00:24:51] Tina: So a lot of people are culturally diverse in, where I work. In the inner east. So I managed to get every week, lots of cultural, cultural food and deliver it out to different people as well. As well as the pads, as well as the activity packs. Um, so yeah, it was, it was mad, it was mad. And then. Um, somebody rang me up and said, so about a year before COVID hit, somebody rang me up and said Tina, I've got 10,000 brand new school uniform sweatshirts from Marks and Spencer’s in a warehouse.

[00:25:19] Tina: Do you want them? And I went, yeah. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. Never. Anyway.

[00:25:26] Working Hours: Never thought were I'd put 'em

[00:25:27] Tina: Yeah. Three months after COVID it was like, oh, we've got these. You want to come and pick them up? I'm like, oh my God. So anyway, I picked up the first like and there was, how many pallet loads? Forty, forty pallet loads.

[00:25:39] Working Hours: God.

[00:25:39] Tina: I was like, okay, what am I going to do with this?

[00:25:41] Tina: But the... I, you know... I'm thinking right, they need to be on kids' backs, they were all brand new

[00:25:45] Working Hours: Um.

[00:25:45] Tina: All different colours, all different sizes. So I picked up the first four pallet loads. I'm like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? So I rang up the council, because, I work in the council and said, and they had a big, um, warehouse where they were doing all the food parcels for all the, you know, the clinically vulnerable. Where they were delivering packs out, food packs

[00:26:06] Tina: And I said, right, I've got all these sweatshirts. I said, you know, can you work with me and help me, like bring them from Cleckheaton, please? I said, you know, ‘cos we can, we can get them out with healthy holidays. We can get them out with the packs and this. Anyway, they basically said, yeah, we'll do it.

[00:26:25] Tina: We borrowed a load of racking. We've got a load, um, we got some people together, some drivers and they brought them all back for me. Um, and yeah, we got them out 10,000 items. Which was really good. And again, you know, that's partnership working, isn't it? Networking, knowing people. If I don't know anybody I'll know somebody who does know.

[00:26:46] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:26:46] Tina: Well, I suppose it'll look good on the council as well, because they were part of it. And then we, and, you know, through lockdown the things I've done a lot of, um, um, so around with the, round the period poverty and around the activity packs and the sweatshirts. We've had quite a lot of publicity, you know, saying, this is what, this is a positive thing that's happening.

[00:27:05] Working Hours: Mhm.

[00:27:06] Tina: Um, so that's what I did. And I also did exercise in my street as well 'cos I was like, you know, at the beginning, when it was really nice weather, I just thought I'm going to go out in the street. So my daughter-in-law's got, um, she had a car with a really good stereo. So I messaged all m, my neighbours and said, right, I'm going to do some exercise.

[00:27:25] Tina: I'm going to do exercise up there at four o'clock on Tuesday, you know, Tuesday afternoon. And it was great when it was first lockdown because there were no cars anywhere.

[00:27:33] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:34] Tina: I mean our street is a dead end street anyway, but normally we have quite a few taxis coming up, but anyway, it was great. Worked really well for about four or five months.

[00:27:43] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:27:44] Tina: So did that as well. So I was actually never in the house. Would you believe?

[00:27:50] Working Hours: Yeah. I mean did you... like were you working more or working less through lockdown?

[00:27:54] Tina: Ohh

[00:27:54] Working Hours: Sounds like you were working more.

[00:27:55] Tina: I was working more.

[00:27:55] Tina: I was working 70 hours a week. Every day, every single day, I had something to do something to pick up. And then I realized that people, you know, I mean, it was great because at the time with the charity shops all closed and everything, people had loads of stuff they didn't want.

[00:28:10] Working Hours: Um, yeah.

[00:28:11] Tina: You know and as I said, you know, I said to everybody, you know, make sure what you giving me, you would use yourself.

[00:28:17] Tina: You know; I don't want your sock draws. I don't want your knicker draws. I don't want your broken, crappy toys that you've had in the cupboard. I want some, you know, I want half, you know good condition. And most of them were pretty good. I've, I've had some crap, but most of it was pretty good quality. Um, but yeah, so it was, um, so I was trying to do my day job.

[00:28:38] Tina: I was doing that. I was doing the period products. At one point with Freedom for Girls we were running really, really low on period products because there weren't, they couldn't get enough in. They were made, I think they're made in Eastern Europe somewhere. So there was a little bit of, uh, an issue getting enough on the shelves.

[00:28:55] Tina: So nobody was, 'cos we get a lot of them donated. The period products, which is really good. So from Body Form and Hey Girls and, you know, um, and also we have donation, donation stations in supermarkets and offices and everything like that. So that all went to pot because of COVID. You know, there's nobody in offices, you know, the, the supermarkets where we had donation stations we can't do it 'cos of COVID.

[00:29:18] Tina: Um, so yeah, so all our stocks went really down, but then there was like, you know, went from 500 packs a month to 2000 packs a month. So we were really struggling at one point, but we got through it. We, you know, we, we, there was one of our other period, uh, poverty charities sort of came to our rescue. So that was really good.

[00:29:38] Working Hours: So you're working more through lockdown. Was that like a more stressful period? Was it a more stressful period of work or was it just sort of getting on with it? Because you seem like maybe it's because, you know, you're not feeling a hundred percent at the moment, but you seem like a really, really relaxed person that seems to kind of take things as they come.

[00:30:02] Working Hours: So was that just a matter of getting on with it or was it like, oh God, I've got to work all the hours that there are, or?

[00:30:10] Tina: There was just so much need out there. I couldn't stand it. You know, I've got three kids. I've, you know, I've struggled in my life. Not as much as some of the people out there, but I just thought, do you know what?

[00:30:19] Tina: People need food. People need things. People need period products, people need, you know, help. You know, and I can do that and that's what I did, and you know, I always put myself in other people's shoes and think, well, actually, you know, I've, you know, not having anything for your kids, not even knowing where your next food's coming from. You know, anything like that.

[00:30:41] Tina: It was a case of somebody has to do it.

[00:30:44] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:30:45] Tina: Or, I, I mean, there wasn't, just me doing it, there was lots of other people doing it.

[00:30:48] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:49] Tina: But no, not as much, I don't think as much as what I did, because I just went and diversed into everything um, which sometimes, and then I went and then like people, then the thing is when, when was it? Last June, something like that, I managed to get an electric van off the council because I was delivering food. Um, so I was delivering about two tons of food a week, as well as period products, as well as everything else, as well as my job and stuff like that. Um, so they gave me an electric van to use and up until October, this October, it was free to charge. So that really helped. If I didn't have that, I wouldn't have done half of the stuff I did.

[00:31:30] Tina: So I was doing it on zero, zero carbon.

[00:31:34] Working Hours: Mmm. Yeah.

[00:31:36] Tina: So, that, I mean, yeah. I think if I'd have had my car, it wouldn't have lasted, but because I had this van it, it really, it was just one of those things, um, that really helped.

[00:31:48] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:31:49] Tina: Still does today because I'm still using it. Um, which has been amazing, you know, and it was a really good opportunity. And it's like every day, I mean, I've done.

[00:31:58] Tina: I think most people have done about 500 miles in their cars haven't they, this year? In the last day I've done like 12,000 or something.

[00:32:05] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:32:06] Tina: And that's just locally, you know. So yeah. So it's worked, it's been a work horse. It's been good. And you know, when people have needed furniture, kids haven't had beds. You know, women fleeing from domestic violence, who've got nothing.

[00:32:19] Tina: You know, we, I've managed to get furniture and clothes and that. And, you know, people who've been moved into new flats off the streets and things like that. We managed to get them stuff. I mean, there's a lot of people doing all that stuff, but that's just an add on really. If I can help people. The amount of them, uh, uh, house clearances I've done is just ridiculous.

[00:32:39] Tina: I've been into some really nice houses. Got some really nice stuff. You know, for people and it's been great. You know?

[00:32:48] Working Hours: Right.

[00:32:48] Tina: I mean, the amount of beds that people give away that are absolutely crap and I have to take them straight to the tip, but I can't say oh no this is shit, I'm not going to give you it. But, um, yeah. So,

[00:32:59] Working Hours: Um,

[00:33:00] Tina: but yeah, so that's yeah.

[00:33:03] Working Hours: So did you? I mean, I want to go down the route of, sort of like valuable lessons from that. I mean, have you? I would imagine being in public health as well, like before we went into lockdown, you'd be seeing a lot of information and, you know, having expectations of where certain things will go and how certain things will happen.

[00:33:30] Working Hours: Um, and there's always a difference between what's imagined and what actually happens. But do you think through that process, do you think. Do you think Leeds as a city has built more resilience from that because we had that? So more connections have been made and that there's a stronger network of support groups there now. Or do you think that's just something that we had to, everyone kind of had to muddle through and it's like, you know, now we're getting back into, you know, back to normal for want of a better phrase.

[00:34:00] Tina: Um, I think. Do you know what? Health inequalities have always been there. I've done the job for that long, you know, and like I say, I'm still doing stuff today that I was doing 13 years ago, you know. The, you know, you can live in Armley and you can live 12 years less than you can if you live in Alwoodley. You know, it's the, and the gap is growing, you know. Uh, for your mortality rate, you know, which is not good, really for helping equalities and the wider determinants. Like, you know, so if you think about like, you know, people who were on furlough, um, people were on um zero hours’ contracts um who didn't have any, you know, any money they didn't, you know, um. I mean, even before that people on zero hours’ contracts, people who are on Universal Credit. People have had to wait five weeks for their cash and things like that. You know, people who didn't have any recourse to funds. All those people that are still there before COVID, you know, and it just got worse during COVID.

[00:35:01] Tina: But if you think about the people who were actually went on furlough, um, you know, you got 80% of your salary. Now, if 60% of your salary is on rent, 20% are on bills. Where where's the other 20%?

[00:35:15] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:35:16] Tina: There wasn't any. You know, people weren't going to the doctors, we were, you know they kept, they kept saying, you know, we're still here. We're not, you know, we're not, not doing anything.

[00:35:25] Tina: We just have to do it online. But then what happens when people can't go online because they haven't got, you know, we've got digital exclusion. Massive digital exclusion, you know, people have got smart phones, but they haven't got enough for data.

[00:35:37] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:35:38] Tina: Um, I mean, at one point in like October, November, last year, I managed to give out a hundred and 20 laptops. Through the, through the government scheme, to all the people that I knew that needed them.

[00:35:50] Tina: And then I'm like, actually that's fine, but what about the data? People need data. So then I got some um, what is it dongles? Isn't it? You know,

[00:35:58] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:58] Tina: Dongles to go with them. So the kids could actually, when we had the second lockdown, they could actually do work at home.

[00:36:04] Working Hours: Um.

[00:36:04] Tina: Um. So yeah, the, the health inequalities is, you know? Yeah, the wider determinants, which is like the, you know, the fuel poverty and the food poverty and things like that, not just the health inequalities where, you know, smoking and drinking and physical activities. The wider, you know, the wider issues, you know, and if you, maybe you're living in an overcrowded house and one of you has got COVID, where, where's the other five, six people are going to go, you know?

[00:36:30] Tina: Um, so I think, um, I think the networking and working together has, has helped because, you know, um, I don't know about your, where you live, but we had like a, a neighbourly COVID WhatsApp group. Now in some communities they're really good. And it's mostly people who are, um, I don't know not you know, working class people, middle-class people who've got that sort of facility. But if you're living in the middle of Harehills and you've got like, you know, 15 people in your street, well, what... you know, who all speak different languages? It's very, very difficult to have that support.

[00:37:11] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:37:12] Tina: Um, I mean, we found that, you know, there was a lot of mental health issues going on with people in culturally diverse communities. 'Cos they were, you know, they were just cut off from everything.

[00:37:20] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:37:21] Tina: They didn't have the money for the phones, they didn't have the money for the data. They didn't, they just had to stay in, you know?

[00:37:27] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:37:28] Tina: Um, and then they didn't how to, you know, claim for things and things like that. So it was very, very, it's very disjointed. You know, the... I think the poor got poorer and the rich got richer basically because the rich people who, who, you know, they weren't going out so they saved loads of money, basically.

[00:37:43] Working Hours: Yeah,

[00:37:44] Tina: The poor people were just like, oh my God, where's my money? You know, I worked in like three food banks or I still do. And we were getting like, I mean, even last week we were getting through the door in an hour and a half 90 people. Feeding 422 people. You know, and that's what we were getting through lockdown.

[00:38:03] Tina: You know where we'll have to do again, that differently where, you know, instead of people coming in, we had stay at the door, giving people food parcels. And there was so many. More and more, and it's getting that way again now. Now the 20-pound uplift's gone from Universal Credit.

[00:38:21] Working Hours: Um

[00:38:21] Tina: And also, you know, your electric bills are going to go sky high. But that's in the future.

[00:38:26] Tina: We're talking about the past.

[00:38:28] Working Hours: I mean, do you, do you think a lot of that is just, do you think that's invisible to a lot of people? I mean, you know, not just 'cos it's not sort of in the media, so people will hear about food banks or know about food banks, but they're not sort of present in the popular consciousness, I don't think. Like, so I was going to say something along the lines of like, you know, it's kind of, there are levels of like, you know, sort of Victorian poverty, but because the fashions are different and the litter on the streets different and the pollutants in the air are different.

[00:39:02] Working Hours: It's kind of like, oh, well it's not the same. I mean, do you think that that's fair or do you think, like, why isn't it, why isn't it more visible?

[00:39:12] Tina: Um, It... I don't know why. I think it's, there's still a massive stigma around it as well. You know, about people going to food banks and things like that. People don't want to talk about it. You know, when the press come to me and said, oh, can I speak to somebody who uses a food bank? Or who's suffering period poverty or something like that.

[00:39:30] Tina: We always get that in the media.

[00:39:33] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:39:33] Tina: Um, it's really difficult. And I think is, it makes for. I don't know. Over the last four years since I've been doing, you know, the, um, Freedom for Girls and things like that. It's almost like, uh, you know, it sounds awful, but it's almost like a, it comes in trend and goes out trend, depending.

[00:39:53] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:39:53] Tina: What, what, what, what the actual world situation is in the moment and whether, whether it's, um, something's triggered something off. Do you know what I mean? It's quite, it's quite interesting the way the media work, and it's quite interesting the way the government work as well. When, when they're asked about things like, you know, they totally don't get the question.

[00:40:16] Tina: Do you know what I mean? If they saying why is there, you know, 1.9 million people accessing food banks last year? Well, where, you know, well, we've, you know, like, I suppose as an example, well, we've given them an extra 20 quid a week. What do you, what do you want us to do? You know? It's almost like brushing it off. That it's actually not a big problem.

[00:40:34] Tina: It is only for a very small minority of people. Actually. It's not, it's quite big, you know, and I suppose it is, is that sort of thing that it's, it's very sad to talk about. Um, but it needs to be almost like turned around into a positive. That actually, you know, people are helping. It's that, you know, the food banks that are helping these people.

[00:40:58] Tina: And I think if I'd a, um... For me it feels like it's, it's sometimes they don't, the press don't want to, you know, they don't want to report on it ‘cos it's not

[00:41:10] Working Hours: Too much of a downer. Yeah.

[00:41:11] Tina: Yeah. Exactly. Well no 'cos all, all news is a downer init, anyway?

[00:41:15] Working Hours: Yeah, but it's not... There's no, there's no viscera, is there? They're not. There's not bodies on the floor that they can go...

[00:41:22] Tina: No. There's no murder or... Yeah, exactly. No crash or, there's no, you know, so yeah. So I think it's quite a small thing. And um, I mean, it's been really good with like, the media in Leeds. So like, I'm, I've got quite good, um, relationship with Radio Leeds and BBC and people like that. And they've been really good at reporting what I've been doing.

[00:41:44] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:41:45] Tina: It's just getting it into the news and saying, yeah, please do help people please, you know, do, um, donate period pads and please do donate, you know, like food and things like that.

[00:41:55] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:41:56] Tina: Um, I mean, we are, you know, I think. Is it England? One of the most charitable countries in the world, aren't they? For giving money to charity. Um, but yeah, I think people still don't realize that, you know, what do you mean you can't afford 50p for a pack of period products? But actually if you're living on nothing, you know, zero, you know, money, that's why you can't afford them. Or actually, if you give me those period pads, I can then spend that 50 pence on a loaf of bread to feed my kids.

[00:42:27] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:42:28] Tina: Um, you know, I'm on the streets and that I, you know, I've got nowhere to live. How am I going to, I, I can't claim for any money. You know, I'm a failed asylum seeker. I've got no recourse to funds because, you know, um, I am here, but I can't go back to where I am so I'm in limbo, but, and I get 27 pound a week and actually, um, I can't use that towards hygiene products. You know?

[00:42:52] Tina: I'm in a HMO, which is like a, you know, a massive, it's like a, what's it called? I can't remember how it would be... It's um, lots of people who live together.

[00:43:02] Working Hours: Right.

[00:43:03] Tina: Um, so you know, like multiple occupancy, so lots of...

[00:43:06] Working Hours: Right.

[00:43:07] Tina: You know, and, and there's nowhere to go and, you know, I, my job's gone because, because of COVID. You know, all the, all the people who were doing cash in hand work, no-one... You know, like if you think about in Leeds and Cross, Cross Green all the warehouses and things like that. People were doing jobs in there, they all went and they were all zero hours’ contracts or, you know, cash in hand. You'd see them all.

[00:43:27] Working Hours: Yeah. Or casual or temporary or... Yeah.

[00:43:28] Tina: Absolutely. Yeah. Again, I keep coming back to the, you know, the women fleeing domestic violence, they flee with nothing, you know. Just with the clothes they're standing in, you know, women coming out of prison, things like that. They've got nowhere to go. They've got nothing, you know, no money.

[00:43:42] Tina: They have to, you know, apply for everything. So there is, you know, a lot of people out there, but because it's the minority and it's not the majority, people just don't, you know, and it could happen to anybody really, you know, people couldn't, you know, lots of people have lost their jobs, but,

[00:43:57] Working Hours: Do you think we should get into Freedom for Girls then at this point?

[00:44:00] Tina: You can do, yeah.

[00:44:01] Working Hours: Do you want to take us through the story of that? How you started it and how long it's been going, where you got into it? Yeah?

[00:44:08] Tina: I can, yeah. Um, so yeah, Freedom for Girls started around about six or seven years ago, probably six years ago now. When a friend of mine asked me if, randomly, if I wanted to go to Kenya. Um, 'cos she was gonna set up a project, um, around, um, the prevention of mother to child, transmission of HIV. Totally random to what I was doing.

[00:44:31] Tina: Um, she worked in public health as well, and my kids were growing up and I said, oh yeah, I'll come and... Uh, you know, she's says, oh will you come with me and I said, yeah, yeah, I'll come with you. Like you do. I just thought about for, for about a millisecond and thought, oh yeah, never done that before, never been to Africa. Thinking, oh my God, what have I done?

[00:44:48] Tina: And anyway, so we went over there and I was doing that, helping with, with that project for a couple of years. And she was a midwife and she, she was doing, um, all the stuff and I was doing all the back-office stuff. Um, and after a couple of two or three times of going there, I just thought I need to do something else.

[00:45:08] Tina: This, you know, I'm bored, it doesn't float my boat. So I looked around, and I loved the people and I loved the country, and I looked around and I, and, and, um, at different projects to do. And then, 'cos I was going to do something with sport and physical activity. Um, you know, I raised some money for, um, to benefit a football pitch in a school and the managed to get some uniform, uniforms. Some football boots and football kit, people had donated to me.

[00:45:36] Tina: But then I found out that 60% of girls and women didn't have access to safe period protection. So, you know, and so much towels or period products or anything like that. And they used ash and dung and bits out of their mattresses, you know, they use paper and leaves or just sat in the hole and I just thought, oh my gosh, this is awful.

[00:45:55] Tina: And I remember back when I was 11 years old and I started my period on French exchange trip and um, I was going, you know, I was going to France. I was 11. I didn't speak French. And then. Um, my French exchange, it was a boy and he had three brothers and I just spent the week, you know, using toilet paper, sleeping on the floor because I didn't want to ruin the bedsheet.

[00:46:18] Tina: Lovely, beautiful bedsheet. And I just, that was 40 odd years before. And I just thought, you know what? These girls, they've got this every month. You know, I remember this, like it was yesterday. This is what I want to work on. This is what I'm going to do.

[00:46:33] Tina: So I, um, came back from a visit in Kenya and got, thought right, this is what I'm going to do. Looked around at different models of work and got my friends together one Saturday afternoon. And said right, we're going to make period products out of sheets and towels. And so I've got them all in a church hall, my community development coming alive again.

[00:46:56] Tina: So they all brought their sowing machines. Dusted them off. Now I've used this for years and tried to make these really awful period products. These, you know, reusables because I reckon that we couldn't just do one use products over there. It was not environmentally friendly. There was 2000 kids to two holes in the ground.

[00:47:15] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:47:15] Tina: You know, giving them one use products will not do anything it, it won't sustain, you know, them, you know, for more than a month.

[00:47:22] Tina: And you have to keep, you know, keep supplying them.

[00:47:25] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:47:26] Tina: Um, and I also realized that, um, they had no information around menstrual health management. So no education on that, apart from the science thing. And most girls didn't even get to, um, far... As far in school to actually learn about that. So a lot of them dropped out.

[00:47:43] Tina: Um, so anyway, so yeah, so we did these, um, washable, reusables. I ended up throwing them all away 'cos it was; they were really bad. And then I looked around at different models of work 'cos I'd, I'd realized that, you know, there's a few people have worked on it and I found this organization, this charity in the U.S. who, who had been around a few years and like perfected a washable reusable pad and perfected, um, menstrual health management education. Um, got in touch with them.

[00:48:10] Tina: And at first, what I did is I ordered some just to see what they were like. So I went out there and then in between that time, um, I'd put what we've done on Facebook and said what I wanted to do. Um, I mean, I hadn't even thought of the name Freedom for Girls, I just thought I'm just going to work on this myself as a small project.

[00:48:30] Tina: And, um, so a friend, um, a friend's family had seen this on Facebook and got in touch with me and said, oh, this is a really good idea. Um, we've got like a fund. Do you want to apply for some funding to do this? Because we, you know, we're really interested in Kenya and also WASH, which is, you know, like water and sanitation and health. Um, so projects in Kenya.

[00:48:52] Tina: So I applied for like, it was about five grand or something to set up a project.

[00:48:56] Tina: So I went over to set up this project and I went over Kenya for three weeks and I managed to, so I took some of these packs over there and I said to this lady. I said, oh (this seamstress) I said, oh here's a, a pack, you know. Here's a pack, do you think that you can make that? And she went away and an hour later, she came back and it was perfect, and I said, right, that's great.

[00:49:17] Tina: So that I sort of like, I ordered some... We ordered some sewing machines and some material. Um, we realized that, um, we can't do that death by PowerPoint in the middle of nowhere. So we actually, what we did is with our education materials, we blew them up into like, um, sort of poster size, um, made out of, um, banner material. So we could just put them on, you know, um, black boards and things like that.

[00:49:47] Tina: So that's, I suppose how I started. Just as a small. I think the first, first lot of money we made about, we made about 500 packs or something, but these packs lasted three years.

[00:50:00] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:50:01] Tina: So it was really sustainable. So that, you know, was a good bit of education. For skills, their attainment level was low, you know, their, their truancy levels high, their... They missed three months of school, every, you know, a lot of girls actually dropped out of school as well. Um, when, when they started their periods, because they were so embarrassed, there's massive stigma, and taboo. They were using rags, they leaked everywhere. I remember once the, when we delivered some of these packs to a school, you know, the, the head teacher said, look out there.

[00:50:32] Tina: She said, nobody's shuffling. All the girls used to shuffle around 'cos they had a rag between their legs. You know?

[00:50:37] Working Hours: Yeah

[00:50:37] Tina: No-one's worried. They're more worried about what's, what's happening down there, than what's happening on, you know, in

[00:50:44] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah Yeah.

[00:50:45] Tina: ...class. You know. So they weren't able you know, even if the did go a lot of girls sleeping with men to get money to buy pads, so they can go to school because they realize that education is the key.

[00:50:56] Tina: Um, and then they'd get pregnant and, you know, awful things happen like that. Um, so yeah, so that's how that started. That's how Freedom for Girls started. Um, and then in 2017, um, it was a bit mad really. Um, so I've just been doing it for a couple of years and getting a bits of funding. Still going over, you know, paying for it all myself.

[00:51:18] Tina: I've got quite a good, um, credit card, the size of a mortgage, the amount of times I've been over there. And, um, so in 2017, um, a colleague of mine rang me up and said, oh Tina, I know what you're doing in, Kenya. It's really good. I've got five girls here with my school. Um, and they are missing school every month because they're, you know, they've got, uh, an issue with buying pads. You know, or one of them. One of the girls doesn't even know that she's having a period.

[00:51:47] Tina: She'd been having her period two years and she didn't even know what it was. Um, and I said, okay, alright, let me see what I can do.

[00:51:56] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:51:57] Tina: Um, so just through a series of events and conversations, I ended up going on Radio Leeds and talking about it. And Radio Leeds actually managed to get an interview with the girls and they were saying, you know, that they were using toilet paper and socks and things like that.

[00:52:14] Tina: And obviously that was really heart rending. It was awful really; you know? Um, and I met the girls actually, and I said that, this is, you know, afterwards. So from that little interview with Radio Leeds, I then, it then got onto the BBC news website and then it got into the Metro and then the whole world's press descended on me.

[00:52:39] Tina: I mean, basically the whole world descended on me. How can there be period poverty in the sixth biggest economy in the world?

[00:52:48] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:52:49] Tina: And, um, we, I think it was the top read most article on the BBC news website for four days.

[00:52:57] Working Hours: Um,

[00:52:57] Tina: I then got invited on Woman's Hour and spoke to, you know, spoke to them on Woman's Hour, um, which made it even worse.

[00:53:04] Tina: 'Cos then it was like even more people wanted to speak to me. And why... what... So I was trying to make it more positive, really say, well, not positive, just like, because, so there was no, there's no research, there's nothing at all about anything. So, you know, it was a massively new thing, but it was also a big news story as well.

[00:53:22] Tina: People thought I was a big organization; it was only me.

[00:53:27] Tina: It was really, um, and so I put it down to, you know, at the time I think it was one, you know the... Remember I Daniel Blake?

[00:53:37] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:38] Tina: So, yeah, so the girl went to the food bank and she asked for period products and there wasn't anybody, any.

[00:53:44] Tina: So that was before I came along.

[00:53:46] Tina: Because nobody thought...

[00:53:47] Tina: Food bags!

[00:53:48] Tina: People... There was no hygiene, poverty. It was just food poverty. But actually it wasn't. It's always been hygiene poverty. So sorta used my public health fight hat on and said, you know, this is the reason. This is, you know, you have to wait five weeks for Universal Credit, you know, as refugees, there's asylum seekers, people fleeing domestic violence. You know, putting it in context that actually, this is happening here because of this, this, this, and this. You know, and, and girls and the stigma and taboo around periods as well.

[00:54:16] Tina: Um, and yeah, it was madness. Honestly, I had people from Denmark, Korea, Australia. I was in the New York Times. I was... uff. It was just mental. and, and then I got... It was quite funny.

[00:54:31] Tina: The day after... And what happened was, the day before I'd, I went on Woman's Hour, I, I messaged my, um, my manage, my manager and the head of Leeds City Council to say, I'm just giving you the heads-up, but I'm going on to Woman's Hour tomorrow and this is what I'm talking about.

[00:54:49] Working Hours: Um.

[00:54:49] Tina: Anyway, when it happens and when it hit, I got hauled into the office of the Director of Public Health and he went, what do you think you're doing? What do you mean, what do I think I'm doing? He said, there's a process. I said, what do you mean there's a process. What have you done? And I said, what do you mean, what have I done? I said I've done an interview.

[00:55:07] Tina: I actually did email and tell you, but you haven't told anybody. Um and he... I said, I said do you know what? I said, I've done nothing wrong. I said, you've got an issue with the subject, not the process.

[00:55:18] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:55:19] Tina: And I just walked out. I just thought what are you going to do? You can't sack me because I've brought this to the attention of the world. Well they can.

[00:55:26] Working Hours: Well, it wouldn't be good optics.

[00:55:29] Tina: No. Not at the time of.

[00:55:31] Working Hours: Especially when you're on the media circuit. I've just lost my job at...

[00:55:34] Tina: Yeah. Exactly. Um, and it was quite funny because at the time. Um, I was on a hotline to the Head of Communications every day of Leeds City Council. And you know, the, like the director at the time, the Director of Communications, kept ringing me up saying, um, so is there anybody else who can do the interview? And I went, no. Because I'm the only person. I am Freedom for Girls.

[00:56:00] Working Hours: I am the organisation.

[00:56:01] Tina: I am the organisation. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:56:03] Tina: Because I don't think they could believe that, you know, one person could make such an impact in the whole wide world. So, so basically I, I, that's what I did. I put period poverty on the map. For a lot of people. You know, so like, Amika George who's, she heard me on Woman's Hour and she ended up doing free periods, and we ended up doing the campaign to get free period products in schools.

[00:56:29] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:56:30] Tina: Um, Celia, um, who runs, Hey Girls, UK.

[00:56:35] Tina: She listened to me, um, on Woman's Hour and she set up a company that makes organic products now. And she's a buy one, donate one, which is fantastic. We did the first period poverty summits in 2017, I think. Yeah, October, 2017. Plan International did a massive research with young girls from eight er, from 13 to 25 and found that one in 12 girls had issues with period poverty.

[00:57:02] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:57:02] Tina: So, yeah. Um, so that's all happened.

[00:57:08] Working Hours: So, have you learned anything about, from... You know, like...

[00:57:11] Tina: I should keep my mouth shut.

[00:57:15] Tina: No, I haven't.

[00:57:18] Working Hours: I don't, I don't think that'd help you. I, I think...

[00:57:21] Tina: No.

[00:57:21] Working Hours: It'd stopped you from doing what you have managed to achieve. So.

[00:57:25] Tina: Yeah. I mean, this is quite interesting actually. How, how it's, um, how it's manifested into, from, you know, just that little thing in Kenya to actually this organization that we're running today, which is still very small...

[00:57:38] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:57:39] Tina: ...but obviously we're very well known.

[00:57:41] Tina: But yeah, so we've like diversified now. We don't just do Kenya, obviously we do the UK as well. I mean, we mostly deliver to roundabout, a hundred organizations in Leeds. We have an education section where we deliver education. We've got black women's menstrual health research project going on. We do sewing workshops. We always did sewing workshops where I set up, sewing workshops in the local community where people can make the pads that I can then take extra pads to take Kenya and things like that.

[00:58:09] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:58:09] Tina: Um, so I, we always did that as well. Um, so yeah,

[00:58:13] Working Hours: You mentioned the sustainability and making the period products in Kenya sustainable. I mean, what are you thoughts and opinions, have you learned much about, you know, the, the western disposability and the amount of, amount of products that we go through?

[00:58:30] Tina: Oh gosh, yeah. I mean, we are

[00:58:31] Working Hours: When that could be altered to be more sustainable.

[00:58:34] Tina: Oh God, absolutely. Cop 26. Yeah. I mean there's more period products found on beaches, I think it's the second, most found thing on a beach

[00:58:43] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:58:43] Tina: You know, I mean, one packet of pads I think is equivalent to about three plastic bags, which is really bad.

[00:58:50] Tina: I mean; we're actually just launching a campaign called Making the Switch. So we, 'cos unfortunately, sustainable products like menstrual cups, washable, reusables, period pants, things like that. They're very expensive.

[00:59:02] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:59:03] Tina: People can't afford them. You know, people who need them every day, they can't afford them.

[00:59:07] Tina: So we've been...

[00:59:08] Working Hours: And they're higher maintenance as well because you've got to be hygienic with them because you're not just throwing them away. So you've got to...

[00:59:13] Tina: Absolutely, yeah. You have to wash them or whatever, but you know the, they're really good products nowadays, and they are very quick drying. So it's not as if, you know, you have to hang them out. The, you know, th th the technology with these products nowadays are really good and like, cups last 10 years, pants last four years, um, you know, the washable reusables last three or four years, if, you know, use them properly. Then just throw them in the washing machine. So it's not an issue.

[00:59:40] Working Hours: Mmm.

[00:59:41] Tina: Um, so, yeah. We, what we're trying to do at the moment is get people to make the switch to these sustainable products, 'cos we have quite a few that, you know, we can donate to people. So we're asking them, you know, if you, if you want to try some, you know, when you can't afford them, why don't you try them?

[00:59:58] Tina: You know.

[00:59:58] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:59:59] Tina: We've, we've been doing this with pants, um, quite, um, over lockdown and people love them. I mean, I know it sounds a bit weird period pants, but they actually don't leak and they're actually really good. You wouldn't know as a man, but, and I wouldn't know, 'cos I, I started this project and went into the menopause, so I don't, haven't tried all these things, which has been really weird as well, but yeah.

[01:00:22] Tina: Um, so yeah, we want to go down that sustainable route because obviously, you know, ecologically and environmentally...

[01:00:31] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:00:31] Tina: ...One use products are just not, (unless they are organic. Which there is a lot of organic more and more organic companies coming on board now) um, they're not good for the planet at all.

[01:00:43] Working Hours: And as well, if you're dealing with the poverty issue in the first place, you know, most of those sustainable solutions are all going to be more expensive. So they're going to be more out of reach than the...

[01:00:51] Tina: Absolutely. Which is why we're doing. Yeah. Which is why we're doing the, Make the Switch. So people who can't afford them can have a chance to, you know...

[01:00:57] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:00:57] Tina: See if they like them.

[01:00:59] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:00:59] Tina: Um, which, you know, is all good. Um, and you know, and actually if you look at well, we, you know, like you, you know. You look at what, the back of packets and things like that, what's what the ingredients is actually they don't have to do that on a period, you know, on one use products. And actually some of the, some of the, um, the chemicals they put in, you know, like, period products, one use period products, are not very nice.

[01:01:26] Tina: They bleach it all white. Bleach.

[01:01:29] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:01:29] Tina: You know? Um, you know, and they don't have to put what's in them, but there's some nasty things in them, unfortunately. Which is why we need to, you know, like move over to, you know, more sustainable products.

[01:01:41] Working Hours: Yeah. I was just going to say, and we can show my ignorance. Is there still VAT on sanitary products?

[01:01:46] Tina: Nope. No, that was a, that was a EU derivative that was going to be removed anyway and actually, years ago, most of the supermarkets moved, removed the VAT on them anyway. So it, it, it didn't make an ounce of difference.

[01:02:00] Tina: They... It's just, the government saying, oh, we're fantastic, we've removed it, but it was going.

[01:02:04] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:02:04] Tina: We couldn't have remove it until we came out the EU anyway. So, um, but yeah, so, and it doesn't make a lot of difference, pence. So they made it a big thing and it wasn't really.

[01:02:14] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:02:15] Tina: Even though they shouldn't have been, it's not a luxury product.

[01:02:18] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:02:18] Tina: Why did we have.

[01:02:19] Working Hours: It's essential.

[01:02:20] Tina: Why are... Yeah. Why... Yeah. It's a basic human right. Or it is a human right. If you haven't got access to safe period products, you can't function properly, you know? Um, it should be up there with, you know, with everything else that's, you know, a human right.

[01:02:35] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:02:36] Tina: Um, so yeah, it's, you know, half the population menstruate and it's still the most taboo subject that we talk about ever.

[01:02:45] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:02:45] Tina: And why is that? You know, because people have never talked about it. Um, which, I mean, we are talking. When I started in 2017, you know, it was like a big thing. I remember being on, was it Good Morning Britain, and it was the first time they'd ever shown a menstrual cup. People didn't even know what it was and we're waving it about going look this is a menstrual cup. You know, so it's educating people over the different products that are available.

[01:03:09] Tina: And people still said, oh you know, we don't know what period poverty is, what even is it? You know, or...

[01:03:13] Tina: Mmm.

[01:03:14] Tina: ...The new word is a menstrual equity.

[01:03:19] Tina: I mean; I've never liked the word period poverty. It's almost like poverty, yes, we know people are poor. But actually it's, it's not their fault. Most of the time. You know? It's just the way the, the way, you know, what's happened, you know?

[01:03:32] Working Hours: Yeah. But you've got to use language in a way that it sticks in people's brains as well, don't you? In a way that the media can sell it and

[01:03:39] Tina: Yeah, it is. It's very much, um, they call it sound bites, don't they? Oh, that's a good soundbi, soundbite. Is it? Okay. That's fine.

[01:03:51] Working Hours: Um, so again, with an assumption, I'm guessing that when you did the media round the majority of people that were coming to interview you were women. You know, being on Women's Hour and so on. I'm guessing there was at least one guy. So what I'm getting towards is like, what, what was it like having that first male journalist go through...

[01:04:12] Tina: Well...

[01:04:12] Working Hours: ...the questions?

[01:04:13] Tina: ...it's quite interesting actually, because um, the first journalist actually, big one, was from I News.

[01:04:20] Working Hours: Right.

[01:04:20] Tina: Um, and he was really, he was really good actually. And he said, I'm really sorry. I don't know anything about anything. Just, you know, talk me through it. And it was really interesting. Um, I went on the Jeremy Vine Show.

[01:04:31] Tina: After Woman's Hour, I'd done all, they got in touch with me and said, do you want to do it and I'm like, oh my god. Jeremy Vine. He's s going to pull me to pieces. Anyway, he didn't, he was really good. I said, look, I want, you know, you need to make this interview positive rather than negative. And, you know, it's quite funny because he got really embarrassed actually. And, uh, you know, the first thing I said, you know, thank you, Jeremy, for letting me come and talk about a, you know, really taboo subject. Um, to a man, you know?

[01:04:59] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:05:00] Tina: Um, and then we started talking about something, and then I said, um, I said, 'cos you, I, I sort of researched him and he had two daughters. I said, you've got two daughters. Have they started their periods yet? And have you, have you spoken to them about it? That's not my job. Why? Why Jeremy? Why is that not your job to talk about, you know, per, you know, periods and, and, and break that taboo you need to do that.

[01:05:20] Tina: You need to sort of educate yourself because actually, if we don't break that stigma, it's always going to be there.

[01:05:25] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:05:26] Tina: He didn't know what to say. It was quite funny. I was on Radio 5 Live as well. And that was in, I, I think I stumped another guy like, quite a famous um, journalist. Can't remember who it was, but yeah. But yeah. I mean they, they were, you know, the men that I, who interviewed me were quite like, oh it's cringe. It was. It was. Yeah, I've done them all. It's quite funny, really. You get used to them.

[01:05:51] Working Hours: I think it's partly, you know, because they don't have an example of how, how to react, how to behave... It's that not having a model of how to respond.

[01:06:01] Tina: Exactly.

[01:06:01] Working Hours: It's kind of like...

[01:06:02] Tina: Because they've got no...

[01:06:03] Working Hours: ...however, I respond is my genuine response. I'm not... I'm not performing that response.

[01:06:08] Tina: Yeah. I mean, it was really, really difficult at first because there was no research. Nobody, you know, it was like, oh my God, this is a big thing. No research.

[01:06:16] Tina: I had this int... what's the name? Hartley-Brewer? What's her...

[01:06:19] Working Hours: Yeah

[01:06:19] Tina: ...name?

[01:06:19] Working Hours: Julia

[01:06:20] Tina: Yeah. So basically she decimated me. 'Cos I didn't even know who she was. She was absolutely. Oh, she was horrible. She was absolutely awful.

[01:06:30] Tina: She just slated me, saying, how do you know there's period poverty? I can't believe people can't afford 50p for a packet of prod, products!

[01:06:37] Working Hours: Well, there's a lot she can't believe.

[01:06:39] Tina: No. Well, exactly. And oh... And it's really funny because I'd done it on a, on a lunch. I'd just finished a meeting and all, um, the researcher said to me was, oh, she's a bit shouty. That's all she said. I went, oh well, I can deal with shouty.

[01:06:54] Tina: I just like... She's going there's no such. I said woah, you know, I said well, what about people in, you know, who are homeless or people who've got no recourse to funds. Oh, there's nobody like that. You know? Gah. And then she, the tweets. She tweeted saying, I decimated Tina Leslie on Free, but you know, Freedom for Girls. Oh god. It was just like, and that, you know, the amount of like negative things that, they put about her, rather than me.

[01:07:20] Tina: So that was the only ever negative interview I had. Apart from being pulled into the Director of Public Health and being told that there's no such thing as period poverty.

[01:07:33] Working Hours: Quite an adventure really from just, oh, I want to do something for myself while I'm here.

[01:07:39] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. It was a bit of a jour... it's been a bit of a journey. Been ma... Well, massive journey and a lot of hard work, but I suppose you've got to be passionate about things to do them and to do them. You know. I mean, yeah.

[01:07:53] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:07:53] Tina: Uh, yeah. 800 million women in this world don't have access. You know, we need to, you know, not have that anymore. You know, and still, we're banging on about it in 2021 and there's still stigma and taboo about it. And still, you know, people are saying, oh yes, we're going to... I mean, even the government actually said, oh, we're going to eradicate period poverty by 2030.

[01:08:14] Tina: But actually you're not because how are you going to eradicate period pov, poverty rather.

[01:08:18] Working Hours: Well if you're not doing anything other than releasing press releases then you're not going to do anything.

[01:08:21] Tina: No. And basically, you know, people say, oh, how're they going to do that? I said they not because actually you need to tackle poverty. So poverty is here. And then you have all the umbrellas, you know, we're just... You know, that's the, that's the umbrella and there's period poverty, food poverty, fuel poverty, digital poverty, whatever, underneath that. Until you tackle the actual poverty issue, you're not going to tackle anything else and that's the issue.

[01:08:45] Tina: And so people can say false promises forever. Um, and it's, you know, until we actually tackle that issue, it's still, we're still gonna have it. My w we're actually, I'm part of, um, uh, the first global period poverty forum that we're going to like, we're going to do a big um, conference next year in Australia.

[01:09:06] Tina: Um, so bringing like lots of people together. Um, so yeah, that will be quite interesting. But again, you know, it's like, why don't we bring some of these governments to book that have said they're going to tackle period poverty? And say, actually, what have you done so far? Nothing. You've just said it a little bit. Like, um, yeah, some governments that we know.

[01:09:26] Working Hours: Like most things

[01:09:28] Tina: Yeah. They can just say it they don't have to do it

[01:09:31] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:09:32] Tina: You know? And you know, I think over time you just actually realize it's all hot air.

[01:09:38] Working Hours: Mmm. Mmm.

[01:09:41] Tina: I'd like to know where the two, 250 million pound is, that they pledged to tackle period poverty in the UK

[01:09:48] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:09:49] Tina: ...In 2018. Was it 2019? So we were on the, um, they did a taskforce, you know, they like these taskforces the government. Don't they? So we were on the government taskforce for access.

[01:10:02] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:10:02] Tina: Um, and we had to go down to London, to the Department of Education once a month and talk about access. There was access, there was research. There was, um, something else, can't remember.

[01:10:13] Tina: There was like three tasks. And it took me six months to get my rail fare back. We had to go to them for an hour, you know? So there's all the big companies like Lil-lets and Procter and Gamble and, you know, people like that. And there was like, you know, and then they had, wanted little organizations like us to pay f... You know, for ourselves to go down to London and then not pay us back our train fare and have to take a, a day out of work and things like that.

[01:10:37] Working Hours: But that's how, that's how poverty works as well though. Isn't it? It's like if you, if you rich, if you're loaded, everything's paid for, for you, you get everything laid on. You go wherever you want to go. Uh, if you're not, you pay for everything everywhere, everything pay for it all. Even to the point of like. You know, if you look, you can tell an area from when they've not got any cash machines that don't charge you.

[01:10:59] Working Hours: If all the cash machines charge you, you know, you're in a poor area and there's all just betting shops everywhere.

[01:11:04] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you go to Harehills it's right.

[01:11:07] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah. All they do is betting shop, betting shop, charge, charge cash points, charge cash points.

[01:11:12] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. Off licenses.

[01:11:15] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:11:17] Tina: Off license, betting shop, off license, betting shop.

[01:11:21] Working Hours: Um, okay. So while we're on happy subjects let's do Brexit.

[01:11:27] Tina: Well, I don't really... I'm not really political, but yeah.

[01:11:29] Working Hours: It's more in will it or has it affected your work?

[01:11:33] Tina: Um, well, no. Not...

[01:11:36] Working Hours: No.

[01:11:37] Tina: ...as yet.

[01:11:38] Working Hours: Right.

[01:11:38] Tina: Brexit. No, because a lot of, um, the stuff we do is not really... I think if we were, we were doing stuff in Europe and things like that, maybe shipping stuff to Europe or doing something like that it maybe effects us. 'Cos I've talked. I've spoken to oth... You know, people who, friends who do a load, a load of like sustainability stuff and, and artist work and things like that who send stuff to Europe and they just can't anymore. Because it's too expensive.

[01:12:06] Tina: But for us, um, at the moment, we've not really had any issues I can think of.

[01:12:13] Working Hours: I mean, just from a Freedom for Girls perspective, I mean, I don't know. I don't know why you would, but you might have numbers on sort of what the manufacturing capacity in the UK is for sanitary products or how many factories we have. Or, you know, like if there's just one factory and that closes down and then we have to get things through Europe and then we can't get them anymore.

[01:12:37] Working Hours: Do you know what I mean? These

[01:12:38] Tina: Yeah.

[01:12:38] Working Hours: These sort of things that...

[01:12:39] Tina: Yeah. You see, it's really interesting that 'cos, so because we get a lot of our stuff donated.

[01:12:45] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:12:45] Tina: We, I mean, like I say, we had, we did have an issue early on last year, even before Brexit you know ju... but that was because of lockdown, not because of. So we've had quite a flow of, you know, period products.

[01:12:56] Tina: Um, and we haven't had that issue, but may, you know, I suppose you need to speak to the companies who do the manufacturing.

[01:13:04] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:05] Tina: Um, but yeah, I don't know. I mean, I know people who send stuff to Europe. What they do is they send it out the EU and then they have to send it into Europe because it's just too expensive to ship.

[01:13:15] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:13:17] Tina: Um, but yeah f, for Freedom for Girls, we've not had any issues.

[01:13:21] Working Hours: Okay. So let's do a little bit on social media. I bet Freedom for Girls has been a massive education in social media for you.

[01:13:29] Tina: Yeah.

[01:13:30] Working Hours: Or have you not really dealt with it. Have you had other people doing that?

[01:13:32] Tina: Not really. Well, I was doing all the social media. Oh my God. It... I spent hundreds of hours a week on social media doing, you know, like retweeting and doing. 'Cos it is your shop window. You know?

[01:13:43] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:13:43] Tina: I mean, there is like, we have a team of people now, which is quite nice. Um, we actually, we are waiting, we need, we've just lost a social media person and we need to recruit another one, um, like six hours a week. But I, when I, when I first did it, I thought, do you know what? I need to you know, it's our shop window.

[01:14:01] Tina: If we, if nobody knows about us. So...

[01:14:04] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:14:04] Tina: You Know, we've set, we set up Twitter, we set up, you know, Facebook, we've got Instagram, we have now a great website that Shona w, um, one of our operations ladies set up and she's brilliant.

[01:14:17] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:14:17] Tina: But we, you know, everything's like blind. We didn't... I didn't even know how to set up a charity. Do you know what I mean?

[01:14:22] Tina: I just thought...

[01:14:23] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:14:23] Tina: You know, after it all hit in 2017, I thought, shit, we need to like, be a charity, not just an organization. 'Cos I was just a name.

[01:14:31] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:14:31] Tina: It wasn't a charity. And that, what I was doing is I was umbrellaing under another person's charity.

[01:14:36] Working Hours: Yeah, and I bet you were getting donations and stuff. While, you know, because you were on the news, people will be sending you things or offers or, whatever.

[01:14:43] Tina: Yeah. So what I did is I set up a like a Go Fund Me page and got quite a lot of money. And, um, ch... I mean remember change dot org? Like...

[01:14:52] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:14:52] Tina: He's got three grand for us, you know like, ooh we'll have that to do... Yeah. So yeah, it was, yeah, it was all a bit weird. So it's all a bit blind leading the blind at first.

[01:15:01] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:15:01] Tina: But then, like I say, I know that I w what I can do and what I can't do. So we've got, I got a board of trustees. We, we managed to get the charity up and running in 2018.

[01:15:11] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:15:11] Tina: March, 2018. Um, yeah. And I think, I know it sounds awful, but we've been really lucky over lock down. People have been donating, you know, money to us, which has been great. So we can still carry on our work in Kenya.

[01:15:25] Tina: And we do Uganda now and also within the UK as well.

[01:15:28] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:15:28] Tina: We, you know, people can't do things for nothing.

[01:15:31] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:15:32] Tina: For long, because...

[01:15:33] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:15:33] Tina: ...you just lose them. You know, and it's, it's a really big issue. That needs addressing. So...

[01:15:40] Tina: And people understand that and they're really, really, um, uh, what's the word? Generous! Is the word. Um, so yeah, it's really good.

[01:15:51] Tina: I mean, we've had people shaving their 'airs, hair off and jumping outta planes for us and stuff, which has been great. Um, but yeah, social media is your shop window, isn't it? People now don't even look at your website. They just look at your Instagram posts or your...

[01:16:05] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:16:05] Tina: Facebook posts about, you know, and we are very much a grassroots organization.

[01:16:10] Tina: You know; we do a lot of stuff. We're not just an activist site where it's just, it's all talk. We're actually action as well. Um, I mean this year we won the Queen's Award for volunteering.

[01:16:21] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:16:22] Tina: Uh, which is like, you know, an MBE for the charity.

[01:16:24] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:16:24] Tina: You know, and only being two years old, that's a massive accolade.

[01:16:28] Tina: I've actually got signed, a signed certificate by The Queen over there.

[01:16:34] Tina: And a plaque. Um, let me show you.

[01:16:37] Tina: It's in here. Oh. Oh my gosh.

[01:16:41] Tina: So look,

[01:16:42] Working Hours: Very nice.

[01:16:43] Tina: With our name on it.

[01:16:44] Tina: And then a signed, a signed thing by The Queen.

[01:16:51] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:16:52] Tina: So yeah, all very nice. But, um, you know, for her to actually acknowledge that there is period poverty is quite interesting. Being 94 years old. But yeah. And, and also I think, um, Amika George, who set up Free Periods and a couple of other people, they got MBEs. But I, I, you know, I was more, I was happy that the charity, had got that. You know, 'cos we, it shows that... and then we got a special er, dispensation for, uh, our work over COVID as well.

[01:17:24] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:17:26] Tina: So yeah.

[01:17:28] Working Hours: Yeah. That's good. It all, you know, they make for good press releases for you guys, don't they?

[01:17:34] Tina: Yeah. It did, yeah. We had, we had a bit of a celebration event, which was nice.

[01:17:37] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:17:38] Tina: Um, and, yeah, we had the press there and things like that. Because, it's not about us. It's about the people we represent. And I've always said that. It's not about me.

[01:17:47] Tina: It's not about what I do. You know, I've, you know, it's about the people who have got no voice.

[01:17:51] Working Hours: But that's the difficult thing. We love to personify things. And if it's just, you know, like, and you know, it from social media as well, you know, like the posts with people and faces got the most traction and because we want to, we want to engage with other people.

[01:18:05] Working Hours: So, you know, you, you end up having or someone ends up having to become, you know, the ambassador or the face of the brand or of the...

[01:18:13] Tina: Yeah.

[01:18:14] Working Hours: Of the, um, issue or the topic. It's just...

[01:18:18] Tina: Clearly, yeah.

[01:18:20] Working Hours: Which is not what people always wanna do.

[01:18:22] Tina: No. I don't want to do it either.

[01:18:23] Working Hours: I don't want my face everywhere.

[01:18:24] Tina: Yeah. I know it's really hard, especially in lockdown when you couldn't buy any blooming makeup.

[01:18:30] Tina: I don't care. I don't care. You just going to get me.

[01:18:34] Tina: Um, but yeah, it was quite funny. Um, but yeah, yeah, you're right. It's um, you know, 'cos I, I asked the, you know, because we've got a bit of a team, I go, say right, who wants to do, you know, media? No I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it.

[01:18:46] Tina: So I end up having to do it. Tina Leslie, Founder of Freedom for Girls, you know? But, uh, you know, but at the end of the day I've done so many of them, I suppose, that it just, um... and also I realized really early on that you just have to say the same thing. Because actually,

[01:19:02] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:19:02] Tina: It is what it is. You know, and, but not everybody knows it.

[01:19:06] Tina: And because I, at first I was like, oh my gosh, what am I going to say? You know?

[01:19:09] Working Hours: Yeah, you wanna keep 'em interested. Yeah.

[01:19:11] Tina: Yeah... But actually you don't need to, because you are just telling the news, you know.

[01:19:15] Working Hours: Yeah, you're trying to reach new people so you're just saying the same message.

[01:19:19] Tina: You have to, yeah. The... That was quite interesting. I remember sat next to somebody at work in when I was in public health and said to them. I said, right, I'm on Woman's Hour tomorrow, what do you suggest? What do you, what do you suggest? You know, have you got any tips for me? She said just stick to three things. Just three things and you'll be fine. Um, and then it was really funny 'cos 'bout a week, late, another a week later, I was sat next to this guy and on the train, I was going to London.

[01:19:47] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:19:47] Tina: Sat on the train and we, we got chatting and I said, oh, I'm, you know, I'm from Freedom for Girls and stuff like that.

[01:19:53] Tina: He said, oh, I heard that interview. Where, where was your media training? I went, oh this woman who was sat next to me...

[01:19:59] Tina: She told me to do it.

[01:20:01] Tina: He said you did a really good interview. I went oh. And he was head of Virgin media.

[01:20:06] Working Hours: Oh nice.

[01:20:07] Tina: Credit cards or something.

[01:20:09] Tina: Okay, then. So, yeah. So I must've done sommat right. But I just said it from the heart, do you know what I mean?

[01:20:16] Working Hours: Well, and also you worked in call centres for years you know how to field questions, you know how to deal with inquiries.

[01:20:22] Tina: Yeah.

[01:20:22] Working Hours: You've done it, it's natural.

[01:20:25] Working Hours: Um, okay, so we've covered quite a lot. I mean I was going to ask you questions about sort of what you'd change but I think I'm going to go straight into UBI. So, Universal Basic Income. If there was a Universal Basic Income, if you were paid, you know, enough money to live on. And I expect to know the answer to this question. Would you still work is the first part of the question?

[01:20:49] Tina: Um, yeah.

[01:20:51] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:20:52] Tina: Yeah. I think so yeah. Yeah. I've... Yeah.

[01:20:55] Working Hours: You'd get bored otherwise wouldn't you?

[01:20:57] Tina: Oh my God. Me? Yeah. Asking me that question is just, you know, it's, it's just like... What do you want me to sit at home and been doing nothing? It's driven me mad having to stay in here for three, four days, five days. You know, I mean, you should see, like I've got, you know, this, here is all the stuff that I need to like, trying to delegate out.

[01:21:14] Working Hours: Just for anyone listening, that was a big ream of papers, that Tina is waving at me.

[01:21:19] Tina: It is. Yeah. Thinking, how am I going to delegate all this? 'Cos I can't get out my front door. I'm not allowed out. It's really difficult. You know when you're trying to, when you've done, people favours all through, you know, for the last year and 18 months.

[01:21:32] Tina: And then it's like, excuse me, can you just nip to do this for me? No, I haven't got time. It's like, ooh, well, I've done this, this and this for you, you know? Uh, anyway.

[01:21:41] Working Hours: Yeah. But you must be more than used to that of like, you must as well have a mental...

[01:21:45] Tina: Do you know what?

[01:21:46] Working Hours: ...shorthand of like, they will do... they will return the favour. They won't return the favour.

[01:21:49] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. Or they will make an excuse. Yeah. Oh, I fell asleep. I'm sorry. I can't do it. I'm like, well, okay then that's fine. It is very difficult because it really pisses me off. Excuse my language, I don't know if I can swear, but that's but yes, it is. It really bugs me that actually I've, you know, I run around for you and you can't do one thing for me? But anyway...

[01:22:11] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:22:12] Tina: It is what it is.

[01:22:13] Tina: My friend's just sold up everything and she's going to go live in a camper van. I think that's fantastic, but she's, you know, she's worked all her life. She's, you know, she's like 62, she's got a good pension. So that's what she wants to do, and she's always wanted to do it, and that's what she's worked for.

[01:22:29] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:22:29] Tina: Um, but I just, I don't know.

[01:22:30] Tina: And good on her, you know? I think it's really great. I know a few of my friends want to do that, just, you know, up and sell everything up and go on the road.

[01:22:39] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:22:39] Tina: Um, but yeah. No I couldn't do that.

[01:22:45] Working Hours: Doesn't appeal to me. Having been in a van on the road.

[01:22:47] Tina: Especially in this weather.

[01:22:48] Working Hours: Aww. Augh

[01:22:49] Tina: I know exactly. I mean, you know, they've all got really posh, you know, camper vans with like heating and stuff, but, you know?

[01:22:55] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:22:56] Tina: That's what they want to do that's what they want to do. But I, you know, I, I just, I think I've been put on this earth to help people and that's what, you know, and, and that's what I like doing. You know? And I'm passionate about things and that's what I'll do.

[01:23:11] Tina: Um, I think, you know, there's always somebody worse off than you and you put yourself in their, that person's shoes and just try and help them. And that's what I do. Um, yeah.

[01:23:22] Tina: And sometimes, you know, some people, I mean, somebody said to me, um, you know, what did they say? You know, sometimes people are, are cash rich and time poor.

[01:23:34] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:23:34] Tina: Um, she said, but you know, you're time, you know, you're, you're time rich, well, I'm not time rich. But yeah. As in I will help, go out my way and help people,

[01:23:43] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:23:43] Tina: You know? Um, and I will, because that's what I'm like.

[01:23:48] Tina: Um, so yeah. I think it's just things that I do and I, and I think maybe I have got ADHD and I, somebody said to me, you know, what you do is you channel your energies into positive things rather than negative things. So not disruptive. So, you know, my, like my, my sitting down all day... Does my head in, you know? I can't...

[01:24:11] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:24:11] Tina: Even like, even sat here for however long it is I'm thinking, oh my god I've got like a big, long list of people, I've been talking to you...

[01:24:19] Working Hours: 90 minutes.

[01:24:21] Tina: Yeah. Exactly. You have to fill, I have to fill every minute.

[01:24:28] Working Hours: So do you see yourself retiring? Do you think you'll ever retire or will it just be like...? Or do you think you'll even slow down? I was going to say, well, you'd just be slowing down, but...

[01:24:37] Tina: I, I don't know. I don't think... Period, property's going to be here for a long time. So on that front, no. I really enjoy my job in public health.

[01:24:45] Tina: So, you know, I, I'm not, you know. I've got another 10 years before I have to retire, fortunately. So, yeah. Um, so no I don't think. I mean unless I win the lottery. That would be quite nice. And then still I'd probably just still do stuff.

[01:25:01] Working Hours: You'd spend it all on, on other people...

[01:25:04] Tina: Yeah. Yeah. I would. I probably would, yeah.

[01:25:07] Working Hours: You'd be like; oh I can do all of these things with this money now.

[01:25:10] Tina: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you know, everybody, you know aspires to win the lottery, but you don't really need a lot of money in this life. When you get, when you go places like Kenya and you see people who don't have anything, you know, even less than. I mean, you see people here with nothing.

[01:25:24] Tina: I mean, I've been to some houses where, you know, you just think, oh my God, am I in Dickensian times? This is... I can't believe people, you know, who live half a mile away from me live like they do. You know, overcrowding, no, you know, nothing to eat, you know. No flooring, no, you know, it's just awful. And you know, and then when you go to Kenya and you go, I mean, I've worked in slums and things like that, where, you know, people haven't got anything, they haven't even got, you know, a bed to lay on.

[01:25:51] Tina: You know; they just have a mat. You just think why have all these people got so much money you don't need all this money. You know, you just do not need all this money. It's ridiculous. Uh.

[01:26:02] Tina: I was, was in Kenya and my friend, she photographs, she lives in Leeds actually probably need to speak to her about... And, um, she does, um, she, she photographs beach rubbish.

[01:26:15] Tina: Um, and she, she asked me to go and pick up on a Kenyan beach, um, some Coca-Cola, you know, the plastic red things. So I picked up about, in about 200 yards, I picked up about 50 just Coca-Cola tops she, she wants to do a project.

[01:26:33] Tina: And then she did a project on footballs. Plastic footballs all over the world. So I brought some back for her, from a beach, you know, so that's, it's quite interesting.

[01:26:43] Working Hours: You can't go anywhere in the world. Like, there's no unspoiled place now.

[01:26:48] Tina: No.

[01:26:48] Working Hours: You can go. You know, you go anywhere and you'll find some crisp packet or a...

[01:26:54] Tina: God, really? Yeah. Yeah. Well, everywhere. I mean, a few years ago, um, Kenya banned the plastic bag, which was brilliant. Um, so, but they've now brought in bags that are made of plastic. You know what I mean? They're not actually plastic, but the...

[01:27:11] Working Hours: Yeah.

[01:27:11] Tina: But they are another derivative of plastic, but, um, it's not as bad anymore. It's amazing the difference in a year.

[01:27:18] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:27:18] Tina: Plastic everywhere.

[01:27:19] Working Hours: The fact that, you know like,

[01:27:21] Tina: Why haven't we done that? Why have we not done that?

[01:27:24] Tina: Why can a developing country ban the plastic bag? When they did it they were the first ones, weren't they? It's amazing the difference. It's 'cos too many, you know, too many people make too much money out of them. That's what the problem is.

[01:27:37] Working Hours: And lobbyists. I mean, for my money, all of this, like we should've been banning single use plastics in the 90s. Like everything, you know, all of this is 30 years too late.

[01:27:48] Working Hours: And the sort of, you know, we're not even talking about an outright ban of all single use plastic or anything like that. You know, there's a token of like, oh, it'll be the straws or whatever, because they make it so hard just to actually...

[01:28:03] Working Hours: You know, and I think as well, the media kind of plays into that. It's kind of like, well, instead of all, instead of banning all the plastic let's just ban one token piece of plastic. That's an easier one to sell in the newspapers and offends less advertisers.

[01:28:18] Tina: Yeah. It is just mad, yeah. I mean, it's like baby wipes, nappies and, you know, period products and, you know, Q-tips and all that sort of stuff, you know, they should have all been banned years ago or just had a, an organic version of them

[01:28:31] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah. Been completely redesigned so that they break down and, yeah.

[01:28:35] Tina: They made too much money out of one use plastics that's the problem is the... I always think sometimes nowadays we're living in a James Bond film. You know, like somebody is about to tell, you know, like, I don't know whether it be Chinese Prime Minister or pew, you know, Putin is going to take over the world soon, you know. You know? It feels more and more, the older you get, the more and more cynical you get and the more and more you think we're just living in a James Bond, film now, it's all a load of...

[01:29:06] Tina: You know, we're all, it's jut... We're all heading for disaster. Awful.

[01:29:10] Tina: Or you know, or he's going to come along and save us or somebody is, I hope.

[01:29:19] Working Hours: Yeah. We'll have to keep hoping. Um, so I think we've kind of, we've kind of covered climate change, ecology. I think we've covered pretty much everything. Is there anything that you want to, sort of, flag up? Discuss?

[01:29:33] Tina: No, I think I've covered everything. I think I've covered most things that we want to talk about, you know, Freedom for Girls, which is...

[01:29:42] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:29:42] Tina: ...you know, passionate. My job, physical activity, you know, um, you know, I love that, I love, you know, teaching people.

[01:29:50] Working Hours: Okay. I have got one final question because we didn't really cover it. So I, I mean, it's a variation on like what three things could you change about your workplace?

[01:29:59] Working Hours: But I mean, if you could have, I mean, it is... Stick to the three things. But if you could have anything, you know, you work any way you wanted it. What would be like the three things that you would change

[01:30:11] Tina: In my work?

[01:30:13] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:30:15] Tina: Um,

[01:30:15] Working Hours: Would it be more hours in the day?

[01:30:18] Tina: Yeah,

[01:30:20] Tina: Err. No I do think I need more hours in the day because I'd just fill them.

[01:30:23] Tina: So that would be terrible. I think,

[01:30:27] Tina: I would change the way, I think people more upstream need to listen to the people who are on the ground. I think that would change. I would definitely change the upstream,

[01:30:40] Tina: You know, like meet in the middle somewhere, you know, with work and things like that. So, you know. People who, you know, strategy and what's happening on the ground sometimes, you know, in your day...

[01:30:53] Working Hours: Well, they generally don't talk to each other

[01:30:55] Tina: Generally, don't talk to each other. I mean, yes, research and things like that, is, is, you know, is very useful and that's what we need.

[01:31:02] Tina: Sometimes it's a totally different way of listening to people. I wish that, um, public health would recognize that period poverty is a public health issue because they've never actually done that. And I think that's because if they admit there's an issue, they have to then sort it out. So it's left to grassroots organizations like us to do that.

[01:31:27] Tina: Um, and it is hard work, you know, trying to get funding to do things and make sure people are alright.

[01:31:33] Working Hours: Mmm.

[01:31:34] Tina: Um, and what's the third thing? Don't know. I can't think of a third thing?

[01:31:45] Working Hours: Well, that's good.

[01:31:46] Tina: Um, yeah, I mean, I quite like, oh no... I hated working from home to start with when we first worked at home. I quite like it now.

[01:31:55] Working Hours: Cool. Well, thank you very much for your time. Um, is there anything, like, I will put all the links and everything for Freedom to Girls and anything else. I mean, is there anything that you want to flag up any?

[01:32:05] Working Hours: Any sort of like, you know, have you got a Crowd funder still going? Is there... If people want to donate anything like that?

[01:32:11] Tina: You can donate on the website; I think that's the best way to do there's just a donate button on the website. 'Cos you know, there's things, tags um, pins to Facebook and Twitter and things like that. Yeah, it's best through the website.

[01:32:24] Working Hours: Cool.

[01:32:24] Tina: It's all on, it's all on the social medias. But yeah, if you could share that, that will be lovely.

[01:32:30] Working Hours: As Tina said, it's hard work trying to get funding to do things and make sure people are alright.

[01:32:36] Working Hours: Thank you again to Tina for being my guest and also just for everything she does. Thank you again all my guests and thanks to you Bugger Lugs for listening to this. Thank you as well for 500 downloads and thank you to my first Patreon supporter.

[01:32:49] Working Hours: Please consider joining them in supporting this podcast. I need Champions for Working Hours and that's exactly what you will be by giving me one pound a month via Patreon to this podcast. That's right it's only a quid a month for Loiners to support and grow this project. Go to www.patreon.com/WorkingHoursPod to sign up and offer regular support.

[01:33:10] Working Hours: So if you're listening to this then I assume that you have some connection to Leeds, like living here or being from here. If you're that person in Leeds or from Leeds and you haven't done a record for this yet send me a message now and let's record your Working Hours session. Email this podcast workinghourspod@western-studios.com with a short bio and some suggestions of your availability or just send me your feedback, questions, comments and queries.

[01:33:35] Working Hours: You can follow the show on Twitter @WorkingHours3 and on Instagram @workinghourspodleeds I'm really interested to hear from anyone in Leeds or from Leeds in whatever industry, sector of role you're in.

[01:33:48] Working Hours: What is your experience? How do you feel about work? What do you like and not like? What do you do Leeds?

[01:33:54] Working Hours: Please remember to like share, follow and subscribe to this show.

[01:33:58] Working Hours: Next time on Working Hours I will be talking to a youth worker. Come back tomorrow for that same Leeds channel.

[01:34:06] Working Hours: Working Hours is presented, edited and recorded by Simon Treen for Western Studios Leeds limited. The music was The Bees from Chopin's Etudes, which is in the public domain and was taken from museopen.org