00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress, friends. This week, we have one of my closest friends on the podcast for a very personal conversation. My book comes out next week, which is is still a wild sentence for me to say, even though I've been staring at the pub date on my calendar all year. And maybe it feels crazy because after years of thinking about whether I was ready to tell my own story and some of these stories, I'm finding that in the days leading up to the release, I've really been thinking a lot about the people that helped me get to this place today, particularly my chosen family. For me, chosen family is the village that you build through friendship, showing up and growing up in some cases together. The people that see all of you and continue to choose you over and over again. My life has certainly been shaped by that kind of love, which is one of the reasons it feels especially meaningful to have my dear friend Elizabeth Cott join me on the pod. Elizabeth is a creative strategist and a longtime podcaster herself who has spent years exploring culture, wellness, creativity, and all the wonderfully strange questions that make us so curious about being human. Elizabeth is funny and exacting and always game for a deep conversation. In fact, a special chapter in my book is centered on one of those memorable exchanges with her. So today, I want to reflect with Elizabeth about that particular moment from the book, which kind of rocked my world, and about how some people feel destined to be in our lives. Let's dive in with Elizabeth Cox. It's actually really funny because my favorite thing to ask everybody who comes on the show is about their childhood self. Okay. You know, if you got to encounter Elizabeth at eight or nine years old, do you think you'd each recognize each other? And when I was thinking about asking you that question, I was like, oh my God, we've known each other through so many versions of our younger selves. And I'm just like, wait, I've... oh, I'm getting so emotional right off the bat. I'm like, we've always recognized each other, even when we were basically little kids. And this is so cool.
00:02:59
Speaker 2: I know. No, it's like, I mean, there's so many poignant memories I have and you are standing right there.
00:03:08
Speaker 1: Do you think if you really go back though, like I know our nine-year-old selves would be friends, but Like that's obvious. But do you, how do you kind of relate to that young version of yourself now? I feel like at this stage in our lives, we're all really getting to know ourselves in that way that you hear happens, you kind of roll your eyes and then it happens to you and you're like, oh my God, it really is so seismic. So do you think about her in a different way now?
00:03:40
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting because In so much of the creative healing work I've done, so much of it is going back to what you liked when you were younger, what lit you up, what did you gravitate towards? Because that's such an amazing roadmap to finding what will light you up at any.
00:03:59
Speaker 1: Point in your life.
00:04:01
Speaker 2: And so I still will put on the Chorus Line soundtrack to soothe my soul and sing every lyric I was just that kid with all the tapes for all the musicals and, like, always trying to, you know, find a little delight in the day. And I feel as if I've found that person again through so much work. And so I feel like we would– she and I would connect in a really nice way.
00:04:35
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:04:36
Speaker 2: I think she'd be really excited about the life that has formed.
00:04:41
Speaker 1: I mean– you've really, you've done so many cool and interesting things in your life. And especially because they're so creative. I feel like a little girl would just lose her mind for that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I, speaking of eight or nine-year-old selves, I threw on the other day, and I don't even know why. It was probably just like a little sparkle, kismet, bump from the universe or something. But somebody... I heard something that sounded to me from somebody's music playing out on the street. It sounded like the chords for the iconic Paula Abdul album. And I literally was like, oh, I have to put Straight Up Now Tell Me on right now, right now. And I came home and turned it on and I was like, this is what I listened to in my CD Walkman. Forever Your Girl, the album. Yes.
00:05:38
Speaker 3: That was the first pop CD I ever owned.
00:05:42
Speaker 1: Like, yes. I mean, it just, and I was like, oh, this is what my inner child has been craving is like a Paula Abdul dance party. Can we have one? Yes.
00:05:56
Speaker 2: 100%. That sounds like the dream. And I remember on the back of the CD, she was signed with Virgin Records, so it said Virgin. And I remember thinking like, oh, that's an adult word.
00:06:09
Speaker 1: Oh, my God. I'm obsessed. Great. We'll have like the childhood slumber party of our dreams as adults. Feels like a chic thing to do. Perfect.
00:06:22
Speaker 3: That sounds great.
00:06:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, you get to get in touch with your inner child, but also have a cocktail. And that is my perfect balance. I love that. Okay, I'm so, there's creativity, there's humor, there's all the things in our world, but the sort of central thing of it, it's like so crazy to interview one of my closest friends. I just, for the people at home, this is wild. I'm like, we're so serious. But the thing that, the book really helped illuminate for me and that made me feel so excited about getting to have conversations like this one with my close friends who are creatives is it gave me a lot of space to reflect on chosen family. And I feel like our friend group is pretty good at that in general, but there's something about sitting with a page and really getting the down through the layers, kind of to the center of what you feel about something. And I know what it means to me to have you all in my life, but I'm curious what chosen family means to you.
00:07:33
Speaker 2: Well, as an only child, which you and I can connect on deeply, you know, it was just always me and my parents and maybe a grandma from either side. And so... Chosen family is everything. Like those relationships that feel like family, that are your people. Like I personally need that because being an only child, as much as I loved the independence, had I not nurtured those relationships and not hold those so dear at this point in my life at 41, I would be so lonely.
00:08:12
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:08:14
Speaker 2: And I feel... There's a really unique experience about being an only child. My experience is that I feel like I walk through the world solo. And I think there's some deep embedded fears that come with that. There's also some great freedom that comes with that. But that feeling of the people that I've brought into my life who are so additive, I feel so held by them. And that is so important when you don't have biological brothers or sisters.
00:08:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really true. And I think, you know, to your point, I've been thinking about this a lot. You know, writing a book is such a journey inward. Your creative work, I know, comes with the same sort of adventure. And It's also been a really interesting thing for me to think about what is nurture, what is nature, not just about family, but even my own brain. Like to realize why friends that feel like family have always been so important because I built a world of pseudo siblings. And to understand that for people who, which so many creatives are, people who are a little on the spectrum of neurodivergence, like you lean into ADHD, you lean, you know, that way I'd probably go farther in certain categories. Like I learned that it's a common thing to kind of feel alone, even in a crowd. And so that's a really interesting thing you bring up that that you consciously consider how you move through the world and yeah, to, to figure out how to really build community and let people in is kind of everything. It's like an antidote to that loneliness for sure.
00:10:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:10:12
Speaker 3: It's, it's, it's, it's an action antidote to that.
00:10:17
Speaker 2: If I, you know, really want to call it like a core fear of just like being alone, even though I also thrive in my solo time in a way that is.
00:10:26
Speaker 3: So important to me.
00:10:27
Speaker 2: But there's also that underlying feeling that I've had my whole life.
00:10:31
Speaker 3: I don't know if everyone feels that way, but that was mine.
00:10:35
Speaker 2: So you do have this book coming out and you do mention some things about the process of working on it. And I've had the luxury of getting to read it before it's been released. And so if you don't mind, okay.
00:10:52
Speaker 1: Can I, you're flipping the script on me.
00:10:57
Speaker 2: I know this is your show, but, um, I would love to, I've prepared some questions that came up that were, you know, came up to me while I was reading and, Would you mind if I took over?
00:11:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, great.
00:11:13
Speaker 2: Is that only child of me?
00:11:15
Speaker 1: Honestly, I love it.
00:11:17
Speaker 2: But I do want to get into how you and I met because what was so interesting was learning about you in the book pre us meeting. So I remember it so vividly and is so quintessential Sophia. We were at a I am that girl dinner, which was an organization like bringing young women together. I remember what you were wearing.
00:11:45
Speaker 1: You do?
00:11:46
Speaker 2: It was a red, tell me if this is, if I'm recalling this, if you ever owned this, a red Eero leather jacket. Yeah.
00:11:53
Speaker 1: Oh my God. I wore it to death. You were wearing that.
00:11:58
Speaker 2: And I remember, so we're at this table, everyone's going around sharing and And you, in my head, you stood up, but I don't know if that was accurate.
00:12:08
Speaker 1: It was on the roof of that hotel, right?
00:12:11
Speaker 2: I don't even remember the location.
00:12:12
Speaker 3: That could be right.
00:12:14
Speaker 2: Yeah. But everything you said, it was just a full body nod. I was just like, yup, this person, they know what they're talking about. They're like, I love them already. And I think we exchanged numbers. Yes. From there. Do you have any recollection of this?
00:12:32
Speaker 1: Totally.
00:12:33
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:12:33
Speaker 1: And that was it. It was one of those things where everybody got to talk and then it sort of split into just chatter and dinner and past plates and conversation. And we just bonded immediately. And I've had... So many experiences like that over the years where showing up for something meaningful to me puts me in a room with other people that share the same sort of moral core and the best friendships form out of that. The best. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. There are plenty of reasons we put off getting support, and for a lot of people, cost is one of them. With BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide, with an average copay for eligible members of just $ 23 per session. And while we're reconsidering old assumptions, maybe there are a few others worth questioning too. Something I know is true for me, and so many women I know, is that we inherit a whole lot of unwritten rules. We absorb things from culture and society and messaging. And for us, a lot of them feel contradictory. Be ambitious, but don't be intimidating. Be there for everyone, but still make time for yourself and have a 12-step self-care routine. What? You're supposed to have it all together, but you can't look like you're trying too hard. It makes me feel like my head is spinning And the things we see in our feed all day tend to reinforce some of them. I catch myself thinking, well, everyone else seems to be able to do this. Everyone else is keeping up and drinking all the water and checking off everything on their to-do list. And shouldn't I be able to also? I have to remind myself that it's not a zero-sum game and also that I can't compare my insides to everyone else's outsides that I'm seeing online. I would never want that for a friend, so why do I impose that kind of pressure on myself, you know? Those are the kinds of stories that I think therapy can really help us unpack and then rewrite, which is why I'm excited about this partnership. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average co-pay of just $ 23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside the US? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com slash permission dash project to explore your payment options. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash permission dash project.
00:15:33
Speaker 2: So this, as I learned in the book, which was so interesting because I met you.
00:15:39
Speaker 3: Post One Tree Hill.
00:15:40
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:15:41
Speaker 2: So this must have been, to my calculations, like right after you moved back to LA.
00:15:46
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, like probably the following week.
00:15:51
Speaker 2: And you talk about in the book how you made the decision to have your moniker for That new time back in LA was your year of yes.
00:16:05
Speaker 3: So I met you at year of yes.
00:16:07
Speaker 2: So I thought that was always your vibe. I thought that you were always the community gatherer, that everyone was always hanging at your house. So it was so interesting for me to learn of this being more of a conscious decision as a response to having been in Wilmington for so long.
00:16:27
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:16:29
Speaker 2: And so- Year of Yes, can you explain that to us?
00:16:34
Speaker 1: Yeah. So really, it sort of came out of, and I will say, I've always wound up being the host. But being in Wilmington for so long would mean, you know, I'd wrap in the middle of the night on a Friday, which was technically like Saturday morning. Sometimes I'd go straight to the airport to get on a 6 a.m. flight to go home and be at someone's wedding if I could, or make it to someone's birthday. And then I'd turn around and go back to the East Coast on Sunday. So I tried really hard to be present, but I never had the kind of cadence of like an afternoon off in the city that I lived in where I could spontaneously go to lunch with my friends. I just never had that. And so when we wrapped the show and I came home, it was this opportunity to sort of be at home with nothing to do. And it was foreign to me. Maybe I'd have it for a week here or there, but I'd never just had it. And Jenny had moved home with me. We'd taken this big road trip with one of our dearest friends from our show, Jane, after season eight ended, because we thought that was going to be it for the show. So we packed up my car, we put the dog in the car, and the three of us girls went on a 10-day cross-country road trip together. We had such a time. And then they brought us back for, you know, one more sort of miniseries season, if you will. And it was really interesting because it felt like we were ramping into something and then I had to put it on pause again. And by the time I came home, you know, I think. When you live with one of your best friends and you also are both embarking on newness, you know, she was moving across the country. Now, of course, is a producer on all these amazing shows, but at the time was like trying to break into the industry at all. So she was, you know, terrified about the future. I was terrified about the future. All anyone had ever said to us was you're never going to have an opportunity like this again. You know, so you're going like, am I going to work? What's it going to look like? What's in store for me? And we both realized, like, it's okay to be afraid and it's okay to not know what's coming and all of this is normal, but feeling so gripped with anxiety that we're kind of paralyzed to make choices isn't helpful anymore. And I think it was such a blessing to have a friend going through it at the same time. I definitely make the best leaps and bounds in my own personal evolution when I have a cohort of people going through the same thing as me, because then I don't feel alone. But yeah, we just got to this place where we were like, okay, let's just say yes to everything. We get invited to something, let's go. You know, something random happens, let's do it. There's a trip we can go on. We'll figure it out later. Just say we're going. And it swung what was a lovely kind of life into something really extraordinary that felt really freeing in that season.
00:19:47
Speaker 2: And it was so contagious, as you write in the book, how it really caught on. And I was, you know, I was one of those people who was like, that's the mantra. Let's do it.
00:19:59
Speaker 1: We're doing it.
00:20:01
Speaker 2: I just remember us always writing, like doodling yes on things and just going full tilt with it.
00:20:07
Speaker 3: So I love that so much.
00:20:09
Speaker 2: How about, cut to now, 2026, is there a mantra or sort of like a type of like thought process that you are approaching things now?
00:20:23
Speaker 1: Oh man. I think, I don't know that I've settled on a mantra, but I think what I have finally learned is to separate societal or external expectation from my own joy. You know, there's such a culture of raising women to be good, but good for who? You know, to be a good girl, but in what way? You know, does goodness mean serving bad systems or patriarchy or just a lack of agency even sometimes for ourselves. And I think for me, the place that I'm in is really feeling like I can separate the two. And by the way, that doesn't mean I've solved the problem. I'm not, you know, totally detached. I absolutely sob when I get harassed on the internet and I, you know, I feel nervous. And of course I want people to know me for who I really am and like me and like my work. And I want people to be nice. Sure to me, but to other people too, like I'm sensitive, but I, I also understand there is that and then there is this. There's a self here that I need to pay attention to in a way that I don't think I always knew how to do before. And how are you doing that? I try to make sure I'm checking in because what I've learned is that something in my body or something in my mind... over and over again through my life had been trying to communicate with me and I just wasn't listening. And I think, you know, really to horseshoe it to the beginning of the conversation, to write a book, to sort of go through that mental exercise and then the breakdowns that like come along with it, it's a really isolating experience and it required me to kind of hibernate more than I like to. I like to be with my people. You know that. Like, I'd have people over every night if I could.
00:22:46
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:22:47
Speaker 1: And I really had to just be alone with my computer a lot. And I also had to trust that, like, my friends are waiting on the other side, excited that I'm coming out.
00:23:01
Speaker 2: You know?
00:23:01
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:23:02
Speaker 2: Other than hibernating with your laptop, was there any sort of, like, daily rituals you had or– non-negotiables that you had in the process?
00:23:15
Speaker 1: Wow. I want to be a daily ritual person so bad. I feel like I would need someone to move in with me and make me do that.
00:23:27
Speaker 3: Full body doubling experience.
00:23:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like I need somebody to say, this is what we're doing today. You know, in my life now, it's like you've got two hyper creative, interested in everything women under one roof. Like neither of us is the person who does that thing. Also, our schedules are never the same on any given day.
00:23:48
Speaker 2: I remember when all the.
00:23:49
Speaker 1: Sleep research was coming out and they were like, you should go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time. I was like, has anyone ever been on a set? Like, I can't do that. But I think what I learned was you can't wait to feel like you're in flow. Sometimes you have to start the movement for the flow to come.
00:24:11
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:24:12
Speaker 1: And that was hard for me because I'm very used to being hit with inspiration and firing off, you know, an Instagram essay or whatever, starting an op-ed and then it's done. And this required much more diligent repetition. Something I learned is that I need alone time You know, probably throughout the process of writing it, there were like three different four or five day trips that I took. You know, go upstate, go somewhere quiet. And I just locked myself in a house alone. Turn on a 528 hertz playlist. That's right. That was really the thing that I continued to do over and over again.
00:24:58
Speaker 2: But I needed.
00:25:00
Speaker 1: I can't be distracted by my loved ones or my friends when I really need to create at volume because I'm always going to, I'd always rather talk to you than talk to myself. And I have to choose it and I have to kind of make the space for it. And that, that was interesting to realize, like, Oh, now I get why writers go on retreats. Got it.
00:25:25
Speaker 2: Right.
00:25:26
Speaker 3: Got it.
00:25:26
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah.
00:25:28
Speaker 2: Did anybody give you any advice when you were writing the book?
00:25:33
Speaker 1: I really didn't talk to anyone until I was pretty close to finished. Okay. There were a handful of people that I sent some drafts of things to, like drafts of certain chapters or sections. I have a great editor. She was really wonderful and helped me to, you know, take it down one bite at a time, not get overwhelmed by the size of it all the time because I am easily overwhelmed by very large things like that. I also did a thing. It's funny, you know, some people will hire another writer, you know, a lot of, and I don't mean this with any shade, by the way, like a lot of entertainers who've never written a book before hire a ghostwriter. And my whole team was like, you're a trained journalist. You're a writer. You don't need a ghostwriter. And I was like, well, no, of course I don't need a ghostwriter, but I am also such a nerd. Like I am a data nerd. I need to understand systems. I don't, I don't know how to do something. I to work with me because she's an incredible memoirist of her own life and teaches people how to do this. And I was like, I would never make a movie without a DP or a director. I want someone who understands the gap between what I know now and what I'm gonna know in six months and who can help me catch up faster. And so that was really cool because I sort of felt like I was in a graduate school program All by myself. A one-on-one. Yeah, like an individuated study program. And it was so cool.
00:27:20
Speaker 3: I love that you did that. That's very Sophia.
00:27:22
Speaker 2: I know.
00:27:23
Speaker 1: In the best way.
00:27:24
Speaker 3: I love that.
00:27:26
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
00:27:38
Speaker 2: I need to go back to a point in the book that stood out to me that I'm so interested in because you and I have never really had this conversation, but you write about going from Wilmington to TRL for the first time.
00:27:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:27:52
Speaker 2: And realizing that the entire crowd, which was a massive crowd, was all there for the cast, you and the cast. Yeah. And you had that realization that, oh, you're Recognizable.
00:28:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:09
Speaker 3: Okay.
00:28:11
Speaker 2: I always, anytime I read a memoir of someone who's in the public eye, I always am so curious about that experience of going from, you know, anonymous, regular digular person into someone who is known.
00:28:30
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:31
Speaker 3: And I want to know why.
00:28:34
Speaker 2: Aside from what you covered in the book about that TRL experience, what was that like for you at that young age and just like that flip that happened?
00:28:46
Speaker 1: I mean, I understand that the answer is going to make so many eyes roll, but I'm not going to be dishonest. It was pretty traumatic. It's a really weird thing to suddenly have your life change and to be chased on foot by people you don't know down the street and followed home. And to have people figure out how to get your address and show up at your office and be waiting for you at the bottom of an escalator at the airport. Like you just never know when it's coming. And it is kind of arresting. And so many people are lovely, but not everyone's lovely. And much like we're having a conversation right now in the world about why women don't know which men are the bad men. Case in point, Cornell, the guy who brought her there was her friend, so she thought. you know, you don't know which people that are like waiting for you right outside your door are nice or crazy. And so it's a weird thing to have to navigate looking out for your own safety and also trying not to offend someone. And it doesn't always work. You know, I remember I'd gotten really bad news about a family member when I was in Wilmington. And it was kind of, I want to say it was our third season, maybe fourth. And I was on the phone with my mom, still on a flip phone, like my Motorola Razr.
00:30:15
Speaker 3: May they bring those back, please.
00:30:18
Speaker 1: Right? Oh my God. By the way, I still have mine. I'm like, can I get a SIM card that fits that? And I remember just being in tears on the phone with my mom. And someone came up behind me. and wanted to take a photo and I was like, I'm so sorry, I'm on the phone with my mom, I can't right now. And the guy was with his daughter and he goes, well, you don't have to be a bitch about it in front of my kid. And I'm on the phone finding out my relative has a terminal illness, but it didn't matter, you know? And maybe I shouldn't care so much, but I don't like to disappoint people. And it's really hard to cease to be a human in certain people's eyes. And you just don't know who's going to treat you like a person. And you don't know who's going to treat you like a thing. And so I look back at it now and I feel really grateful in some senses that we were a little isolated in Wilmington. It also kind of made us sitting ducks in other ways. But it's a weird thing to go through that so many years before your prefrontal cortex is even done developing. And like, you have to remember there was no social media. There were no Instagram therapists. Nobody was like giving us advice. Nobody was doing the artist's way in the, in the crew yet. Like we were sort of rudderless with no tips and no one was advising us on how to handle it. So it was kind of a baptism by fire, but you know, then there were also such incredible opportunities. There's people you get to meet. There's, there's organizations you get to serve. There's, ways you get to use your voice. Sometimes you're a walk-in at a restaurant and you get a table, like some of it's really special, but I, I'm not going to, I don't think it's healthy to uphold this false idea that it's all so great. I think we got to tell each other the truth a little bit. And so maybe it's like too real an answer, but It was all those things.
00:32:20
Speaker 3: I appreciate the realness of the answer.
00:32:21
Speaker 2: And I think we're in a very interesting time now where there's this democratization of fame that's occurring. And when you came into the public eye, it wasn't like that. You know, paparazzi culture was still a thing. Oh my God.
00:32:36
Speaker 1: Do you remember when we used to go to Koi and they would jump on the hood of the car?
00:32:40
Speaker 2: I remember there was a picture of us. We weren't at Koi. I don't remember where it was.
00:32:46
Speaker 1: That bar on Sunset. What was it called? The Wilcox?
00:32:49
Speaker 3: The.
00:32:51
Speaker 2: Something, something.
00:32:53
Speaker 1: No, I remember. And we were like in our For Love and Lemons. Yeah, no, you had.
00:32:56
Speaker 2: Your For Love and Lemons. And then I had just made those sweatshirts for Closet Rich.
00:33:00
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:33:01
Speaker 2: And then it got paparazzi with re-wearing the sweatshirt.
00:33:04
Speaker 3: And I was like, honestly, it's pretty great.
00:33:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:33:08
Speaker 1: Oh, my God. It was funny. But it was so funny.
00:33:10
Speaker 2: And I mean, I felt like the most awkward person ever just like being with you. So I could only imagine that. Just like the like shock. Because like I see, I remember in those days if a camera went off, I would literally, that was my face. I had no idea how to respond to it.
00:33:29
Speaker 1: No, there's some people who just know how to like sort of go limp in the face and then they walk really slowly and all their pictures look really elegant. And I am not that person. I'm just not.
00:33:41
Speaker 2: And I kind of love that you're not.
00:33:43
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:33:44
Speaker 2: But like one day maybe we can practice.
00:33:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's funny. There are things you get a little conscious of. Like I was at the US Open and three of us were in a row together. really getting fired up about the game just like and that was a bullshit call and and like there was a moment where I saw these cameras turn toward us and sometimes you can't see them like the ones that are across the stadium you can't see but the ones that are right below where you're sitting you know they're big lenses so when they shift you're like oh god and immediately I looked at the girls and I was like everybody crack a smile or they're all gonna think we're yelling at each other some tabloid's gonna print a story that we're all in a fight And we're passionate about sports and we're yelling about these knuckleheads on the court. But like, it's weird things like that where, and a friend of mine who worked for the car company that had the suite for Cadillac was sitting behind me and was like, oh my God, the things you have to think about. And I was like, I didn't even realize, yeah, I guess I'm just sort of I'm accustomed to it because I've seen the article where it's like so-and-so looks miserable or somebody was upset. And you're like, no. You know, I walked out of, I don't know, some sad movie or like we were lamenting something and then laughing. But you got the photo in the moment and you printed the one that looks like something's wrong because that's what's going to get the eyeballs or the clicks. Right. So you realize in moments like that, like, you know, as a 44-year-old woman, I was like, oh man, I am jumpy around that part of the world. And I guess for a reason.
00:35:25
Speaker 2: I think there, and you alluded to this earlier, there's like the caricature of you that's like.
00:35:33
Speaker 3: Assumed.
00:35:34
Speaker 2: And then there's the you that you have the relationship with. And it must be really.
00:35:42
Speaker 3: A trip to have to experience both.
00:35:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't, that's the part I really don't love because to be sort of flattened. Yeah. You know, they take a three-dimensional human and then flatten you to print a photo. And they do kind of cast you in the role that's most beneficial to their system. So whatever they can make the clickbait money on... is what they do with you in their media. And you're just like, what is this? But in the weirdest way, I've had to learn it and understand it and have a sort of depth of competency with it. And I have to release it. So it's like, I really have had to hold it close and pull it apart and then also let it go. Right.
00:36:35
Speaker 3: Do you ever wish that you weren't recognizable? Like, are there ever moments where you're like, Oh my God.
00:36:40
Speaker 1: I think about like, I think about the famed legends, which by the way, she's pseudo confirmed of like Nicole Kidman. And back then when they were married, Tom Cruise, having like special effects people make them these incredible masks so they could actually go out in public and like go to clubs or go for a walk on the beach or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, if I was the richest actor in Hollywood, I'd have a $ 40, 000 mask so that I could go out And like, just be in the world. I would love it. And I'm not even famous like that.
00:37:13
Speaker 3: I can't imagine.
00:37:14
Speaker 1: Like, I think about Jennifer Aniston sometimes and I'm like, how has she done this for so long? At that level, I can't even fathom it.
00:37:23
Speaker 3: It's such a unique experience.
00:37:26
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:37:26
Speaker 3: That I, as like a.
00:37:30
Speaker 2: Spectator, we're not spectator, but just as like an interested person, I'm like, huh? Like, I'm so curious about the real human side of that. So thank you for indulging me on that.
00:37:40
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:37:41
Speaker 2: But I loved that bit in the book. So interesting. Would have been, like, such a trip.
00:37:47
Speaker 1: I mean, I will just never forget it because, you know, TRL had that famous window at the corner. And we all, like, pushed out to the window. And we were like, what is going on in New York today? Like, we truly didn't get it. Elizabeth. We didn't get it.
00:38:05
Speaker 2: And....
00:38:07
Speaker 1: Carson Daly was so amused and kind of laughing. And I remember, it's like when you hear people's voices for 15 hours a day, five or six days a week for 10 years of your life, you know them so well. And I remember like the slightly Southern lilt of of Hillary's response to Carson, because, you know, they worked together. I remember hearing James kind of laugh and then gasp and he's like, what? I remember Joy going, like, really? You know, and her voice goes up because she's like this amazing singer. I remember every single person, you know, like even Chad who'd just been on Dawson's Creek was like, what? Like everybody was, we knew that this was kind of crazy, no matter what we thought it meant to be on a show. And yeah, it's like one of those moments, it's weird. I can like almost smell the AC machine in the studio still. You know, it's like indelibly burned on my brain.
00:39:19
Speaker 2: It was so surreal. I, you know, I've never, admission, I've never watched One Tree Hill.
00:39:25
Speaker 4: But the book, the book, I was like, I want to watch this now and having like all this context and lore mixed in so yeah get ready for that.
00:39:37
Speaker 1: I know it's kind of crazy it's also it was weird to try to figure out how to write about it because how do you write about a decade of your life you know what's that chapter Um, but I think what I started to figure out is, and I did pick Jed's brain about this, our dear friend for our listeners at home, Jedediah Jenkins is a gorgeous writer and has his fourth memoir coming out. Um, and you know, what I, what I think I sort of settled on for myself was it's, it's decades of stories. So they're not all going to fit and that's okay. Some things can be for the next book. Should there be one? I have to see how this experience goes. Some things make sense more as reflections and what I realize in this self I learned back then because then I can kind of summarize instead of have to give a play-by-play of a decade. So hopefully it worked. It worked.
00:40:44
Speaker 2: It worked.
00:40:44
Speaker 1: Okay, good. Well, I'm just having the best of times with one of my best friends. We have so much more to talk about. Join us for part two soon.
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress, friends. This week, we have one of my closest friends on the podcast for a very personal conversation. My book comes out next week, which is is still a wild sentence for me to say, even though I've been staring at the pub date on my calendar all year. And maybe it feels crazy because after years of thinking about whether I was ready to tell my own story and some of these stories, I'm finding that in the days leading up to the release, I've really been thinking a lot about the people that helped me get to this place today, particularly my chosen family. For me, chosen family is the village that you build through friendship, showing up and growing up in some cases together. The people that see all of you and continue to choose you over and over again. My life has certainly been shaped by that kind of love, which is one of the reasons it feels especially meaningful to have my dear friend Elizabeth Cott join me on the pod. Elizabeth is a creative strategist and a longtime podcaster herself who has spent years exploring culture, wellness, creativity, and all the wonderfully strange questions that make us so curious about being human. Elizabeth is funny and exacting and always game for a deep conversation. In fact, a special chapter in my book is centered on one of those memorable exchanges with her. So today, I want to reflect with Elizabeth about that particular moment from the book, which kind of rocked my world, and about how some people feel destined to be in our lives. Let's dive in with Elizabeth Cox. It's actually really funny because my favorite thing to ask everybody who comes on the show is about their childhood self. Okay. You know, if you got to encounter Elizabeth at eight or nine years old, do you think you'd each recognize each other? And when I was thinking about asking you that question, I was like, oh my God, we've known each other through so many versions of our younger selves. And I'm just like, wait, I've... oh, I'm getting so emotional right off the bat. I'm like, we've always recognized each other, even when we were basically little kids. And this is so cool.
00:02:59
Speaker 2: I know. No, it's like, I mean, there's so many poignant memories I have and you are standing right there.
00:03:08
Speaker 1: Do you think if you really go back though, like I know our nine-year-old selves would be friends, but Like that's obvious. But do you, how do you kind of relate to that young version of yourself now? I feel like at this stage in our lives, we're all really getting to know ourselves in that way that you hear happens, you kind of roll your eyes and then it happens to you and you're like, oh my God, it really is so seismic. So do you think about her in a different way now?
00:03:40
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting because In so much of the creative healing work I've done, so much of it is going back to what you liked when you were younger, what lit you up, what did you gravitate towards? Because that's such an amazing roadmap to finding what will light you up at any.
00:03:59
Speaker 1: Point in your life.
00:04:01
Speaker 2: And so I still will put on the Chorus Line soundtrack to soothe my soul and sing every lyric I was just that kid with all the tapes for all the musicals and, like, always trying to, you know, find a little delight in the day. And I feel as if I've found that person again through so much work. And so I feel like we would– she and I would connect in a really nice way.
00:04:35
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:04:36
Speaker 2: I think she'd be really excited about the life that has formed.
00:04:41
Speaker 1: I mean– you've really, you've done so many cool and interesting things in your life. And especially because they're so creative. I feel like a little girl would just lose her mind for that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I, speaking of eight or nine-year-old selves, I threw on the other day, and I don't even know why. It was probably just like a little sparkle, kismet, bump from the universe or something. But somebody... I heard something that sounded to me from somebody's music playing out on the street. It sounded like the chords for the iconic Paula Abdul album. And I literally was like, oh, I have to put Straight Up Now Tell Me on right now, right now. And I came home and turned it on and I was like, this is what I listened to in my CD Walkman. Forever Your Girl, the album. Yes.
00:05:38
Speaker 3: That was the first pop CD I ever owned.
00:05:42
Speaker 1: Like, yes. I mean, it just, and I was like, oh, this is what my inner child has been craving is like a Paula Abdul dance party. Can we have one? Yes.
00:05:56
Speaker 2: 100%. That sounds like the dream. And I remember on the back of the CD, she was signed with Virgin Records, so it said Virgin. And I remember thinking like, oh, that's an adult word.
00:06:09
Speaker 1: Oh, my God. I'm obsessed. Great. We'll have like the childhood slumber party of our dreams as adults. Feels like a chic thing to do. Perfect.
00:06:22
Speaker 3: That sounds great.
00:06:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, you get to get in touch with your inner child, but also have a cocktail. And that is my perfect balance. I love that. Okay, I'm so, there's creativity, there's humor, there's all the things in our world, but the sort of central thing of it, it's like so crazy to interview one of my closest friends. I just, for the people at home, this is wild. I'm like, we're so serious. But the thing that, the book really helped illuminate for me and that made me feel so excited about getting to have conversations like this one with my close friends who are creatives is it gave me a lot of space to reflect on chosen family. And I feel like our friend group is pretty good at that in general, but there's something about sitting with a page and really getting the down through the layers, kind of to the center of what you feel about something. And I know what it means to me to have you all in my life, but I'm curious what chosen family means to you.
00:07:33
Speaker 2: Well, as an only child, which you and I can connect on deeply, you know, it was just always me and my parents and maybe a grandma from either side. And so... Chosen family is everything. Like those relationships that feel like family, that are your people. Like I personally need that because being an only child, as much as I loved the independence, had I not nurtured those relationships and not hold those so dear at this point in my life at 41, I would be so lonely.
00:08:12
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:08:14
Speaker 2: And I feel... There's a really unique experience about being an only child. My experience is that I feel like I walk through the world solo. And I think there's some deep embedded fears that come with that. There's also some great freedom that comes with that. But that feeling of the people that I've brought into my life who are so additive, I feel so held by them. And that is so important when you don't have biological brothers or sisters.
00:08:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really true. And I think, you know, to your point, I've been thinking about this a lot. You know, writing a book is such a journey inward. Your creative work, I know, comes with the same sort of adventure. And It's also been a really interesting thing for me to think about what is nurture, what is nature, not just about family, but even my own brain. Like to realize why friends that feel like family have always been so important because I built a world of pseudo siblings. And to understand that for people who, which so many creatives are, people who are a little on the spectrum of neurodivergence, like you lean into ADHD, you lean, you know, that way I'd probably go farther in certain categories. Like I learned that it's a common thing to kind of feel alone, even in a crowd. And so that's a really interesting thing you bring up that that you consciously consider how you move through the world and yeah, to, to figure out how to really build community and let people in is kind of everything. It's like an antidote to that loneliness for sure.
00:10:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:10:12
Speaker 3: It's, it's, it's, it's an action antidote to that.
00:10:17
Speaker 2: If I, you know, really want to call it like a core fear of just like being alone, even though I also thrive in my solo time in a way that is.
00:10:26
Speaker 3: So important to me.
00:10:27
Speaker 2: But there's also that underlying feeling that I've had my whole life.
00:10:31
Speaker 3: I don't know if everyone feels that way, but that was mine.
00:10:35
Speaker 2: So you do have this book coming out and you do mention some things about the process of working on it. And I've had the luxury of getting to read it before it's been released. And so if you don't mind, okay.
00:10:52
Speaker 1: Can I, you're flipping the script on me.
00:10:57
Speaker 2: I know this is your show, but, um, I would love to, I've prepared some questions that came up that were, you know, came up to me while I was reading and, Would you mind if I took over?
00:11:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, great.
00:11:13
Speaker 2: Is that only child of me?
00:11:15
Speaker 1: Honestly, I love it.
00:11:17
Speaker 2: But I do want to get into how you and I met because what was so interesting was learning about you in the book pre us meeting. So I remember it so vividly and is so quintessential Sophia. We were at a I am that girl dinner, which was an organization like bringing young women together. I remember what you were wearing.
00:11:45
Speaker 1: You do?
00:11:46
Speaker 2: It was a red, tell me if this is, if I'm recalling this, if you ever owned this, a red Eero leather jacket. Yeah.
00:11:53
Speaker 1: Oh my God. I wore it to death. You were wearing that.
00:11:58
Speaker 2: And I remember, so we're at this table, everyone's going around sharing and And you, in my head, you stood up, but I don't know if that was accurate.
00:12:08
Speaker 1: It was on the roof of that hotel, right?
00:12:11
Speaker 2: I don't even remember the location.
00:12:12
Speaker 3: That could be right.
00:12:14
Speaker 2: Yeah. But everything you said, it was just a full body nod. I was just like, yup, this person, they know what they're talking about. They're like, I love them already. And I think we exchanged numbers. Yes. From there. Do you have any recollection of this?
00:12:32
Speaker 1: Totally.
00:12:33
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:12:33
Speaker 1: And that was it. It was one of those things where everybody got to talk and then it sort of split into just chatter and dinner and past plates and conversation. And we just bonded immediately. And I've had... So many experiences like that over the years where showing up for something meaningful to me puts me in a room with other people that share the same sort of moral core and the best friendships form out of that. The best. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. There are plenty of reasons we put off getting support, and for a lot of people, cost is one of them. With BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide, with an average copay for eligible members of just $ 23 per session. And while we're reconsidering old assumptions, maybe there are a few others worth questioning too. Something I know is true for me, and so many women I know, is that we inherit a whole lot of unwritten rules. We absorb things from culture and society and messaging. And for us, a lot of them feel contradictory. Be ambitious, but don't be intimidating. Be there for everyone, but still make time for yourself and have a 12-step self-care routine. What? You're supposed to have it all together, but you can't look like you're trying too hard. It makes me feel like my head is spinning And the things we see in our feed all day tend to reinforce some of them. I catch myself thinking, well, everyone else seems to be able to do this. Everyone else is keeping up and drinking all the water and checking off everything on their to-do list. And shouldn't I be able to also? I have to remind myself that it's not a zero-sum game and also that I can't compare my insides to everyone else's outsides that I'm seeing online. I would never want that for a friend, so why do I impose that kind of pressure on myself, you know? Those are the kinds of stories that I think therapy can really help us unpack and then rewrite, which is why I'm excited about this partnership. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average co-pay of just $ 23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside the US? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com slash permission dash project to explore your payment options. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash permission dash project.
00:15:33
Speaker 2: So this, as I learned in the book, which was so interesting because I met you.
00:15:39
Speaker 3: Post One Tree Hill.
00:15:40
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:15:41
Speaker 2: So this must have been, to my calculations, like right after you moved back to LA.
00:15:46
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, like probably the following week.
00:15:51
Speaker 2: And you talk about in the book how you made the decision to have your moniker for That new time back in LA was your year of yes.
00:16:05
Speaker 3: So I met you at year of yes.
00:16:07
Speaker 2: So I thought that was always your vibe. I thought that you were always the community gatherer, that everyone was always hanging at your house. So it was so interesting for me to learn of this being more of a conscious decision as a response to having been in Wilmington for so long.
00:16:27
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:16:29
Speaker 2: And so- Year of Yes, can you explain that to us?
00:16:34
Speaker 1: Yeah. So really, it sort of came out of, and I will say, I've always wound up being the host. But being in Wilmington for so long would mean, you know, I'd wrap in the middle of the night on a Friday, which was technically like Saturday morning. Sometimes I'd go straight to the airport to get on a 6 a.m. flight to go home and be at someone's wedding if I could, or make it to someone's birthday. And then I'd turn around and go back to the East Coast on Sunday. So I tried really hard to be present, but I never had the kind of cadence of like an afternoon off in the city that I lived in where I could spontaneously go to lunch with my friends. I just never had that. And so when we wrapped the show and I came home, it was this opportunity to sort of be at home with nothing to do. And it was foreign to me. Maybe I'd have it for a week here or there, but I'd never just had it. And Jenny had moved home with me. We'd taken this big road trip with one of our dearest friends from our show, Jane, after season eight ended, because we thought that was going to be it for the show. So we packed up my car, we put the dog in the car, and the three of us girls went on a 10-day cross-country road trip together. We had such a time. And then they brought us back for, you know, one more sort of miniseries season, if you will. And it was really interesting because it felt like we were ramping into something and then I had to put it on pause again. And by the time I came home, you know, I think. When you live with one of your best friends and you also are both embarking on newness, you know, she was moving across the country. Now, of course, is a producer on all these amazing shows, but at the time was like trying to break into the industry at all. So she was, you know, terrified about the future. I was terrified about the future. All anyone had ever said to us was you're never going to have an opportunity like this again. You know, so you're going like, am I going to work? What's it going to look like? What's in store for me? And we both realized, like, it's okay to be afraid and it's okay to not know what's coming and all of this is normal, but feeling so gripped with anxiety that we're kind of paralyzed to make choices isn't helpful anymore. And I think it was such a blessing to have a friend going through it at the same time. I definitely make the best leaps and bounds in my own personal evolution when I have a cohort of people going through the same thing as me, because then I don't feel alone. But yeah, we just got to this place where we were like, okay, let's just say yes to everything. We get invited to something, let's go. You know, something random happens, let's do it. There's a trip we can go on. We'll figure it out later. Just say we're going. And it swung what was a lovely kind of life into something really extraordinary that felt really freeing in that season.
00:19:47
Speaker 2: And it was so contagious, as you write in the book, how it really caught on. And I was, you know, I was one of those people who was like, that's the mantra. Let's do it.
00:19:59
Speaker 1: We're doing it.
00:20:01
Speaker 2: I just remember us always writing, like doodling yes on things and just going full tilt with it.
00:20:07
Speaker 3: So I love that so much.
00:20:09
Speaker 2: How about, cut to now, 2026, is there a mantra or sort of like a type of like thought process that you are approaching things now?
00:20:23
Speaker 1: Oh man. I think, I don't know that I've settled on a mantra, but I think what I have finally learned is to separate societal or external expectation from my own joy. You know, there's such a culture of raising women to be good, but good for who? You know, to be a good girl, but in what way? You know, does goodness mean serving bad systems or patriarchy or just a lack of agency even sometimes for ourselves. And I think for me, the place that I'm in is really feeling like I can separate the two. And by the way, that doesn't mean I've solved the problem. I'm not, you know, totally detached. I absolutely sob when I get harassed on the internet and I, you know, I feel nervous. And of course I want people to know me for who I really am and like me and like my work. And I want people to be nice. Sure to me, but to other people too, like I'm sensitive, but I, I also understand there is that and then there is this. There's a self here that I need to pay attention to in a way that I don't think I always knew how to do before. And how are you doing that? I try to make sure I'm checking in because what I've learned is that something in my body or something in my mind... over and over again through my life had been trying to communicate with me and I just wasn't listening. And I think, you know, really to horseshoe it to the beginning of the conversation, to write a book, to sort of go through that mental exercise and then the breakdowns that like come along with it, it's a really isolating experience and it required me to kind of hibernate more than I like to. I like to be with my people. You know that. Like, I'd have people over every night if I could.
00:22:46
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:22:47
Speaker 1: And I really had to just be alone with my computer a lot. And I also had to trust that, like, my friends are waiting on the other side, excited that I'm coming out.
00:23:01
Speaker 2: You know?
00:23:01
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:23:02
Speaker 2: Other than hibernating with your laptop, was there any sort of, like, daily rituals you had or– non-negotiables that you had in the process?
00:23:15
Speaker 1: Wow. I want to be a daily ritual person so bad. I feel like I would need someone to move in with me and make me do that.
00:23:27
Speaker 3: Full body doubling experience.
00:23:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like I need somebody to say, this is what we're doing today. You know, in my life now, it's like you've got two hyper creative, interested in everything women under one roof. Like neither of us is the person who does that thing. Also, our schedules are never the same on any given day.
00:23:48
Speaker 2: I remember when all the.
00:23:49
Speaker 1: Sleep research was coming out and they were like, you should go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time. I was like, has anyone ever been on a set? Like, I can't do that. But I think what I learned was you can't wait to feel like you're in flow. Sometimes you have to start the movement for the flow to come.
00:24:11
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:24:12
Speaker 1: And that was hard for me because I'm very used to being hit with inspiration and firing off, you know, an Instagram essay or whatever, starting an op-ed and then it's done. And this required much more diligent repetition. Something I learned is that I need alone time You know, probably throughout the process of writing it, there were like three different four or five day trips that I took. You know, go upstate, go somewhere quiet. And I just locked myself in a house alone. Turn on a 528 hertz playlist. That's right. That was really the thing that I continued to do over and over again.
00:24:58
Speaker 2: But I needed.
00:25:00
Speaker 1: I can't be distracted by my loved ones or my friends when I really need to create at volume because I'm always going to, I'd always rather talk to you than talk to myself. And I have to choose it and I have to kind of make the space for it. And that, that was interesting to realize, like, Oh, now I get why writers go on retreats. Got it.
00:25:25
Speaker 2: Right.
00:25:26
Speaker 3: Got it.
00:25:26
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah.
00:25:28
Speaker 2: Did anybody give you any advice when you were writing the book?
00:25:33
Speaker 1: I really didn't talk to anyone until I was pretty close to finished. Okay. There were a handful of people that I sent some drafts of things to, like drafts of certain chapters or sections. I have a great editor. She was really wonderful and helped me to, you know, take it down one bite at a time, not get overwhelmed by the size of it all the time because I am easily overwhelmed by very large things like that. I also did a thing. It's funny, you know, some people will hire another writer, you know, a lot of, and I don't mean this with any shade, by the way, like a lot of entertainers who've never written a book before hire a ghostwriter. And my whole team was like, you're a trained journalist. You're a writer. You don't need a ghostwriter. And I was like, well, no, of course I don't need a ghostwriter, but I am also such a nerd. Like I am a data nerd. I need to understand systems. I don't, I don't know how to do something. I to work with me because she's an incredible memoirist of her own life and teaches people how to do this. And I was like, I would never make a movie without a DP or a director. I want someone who understands the gap between what I know now and what I'm gonna know in six months and who can help me catch up faster. And so that was really cool because I sort of felt like I was in a graduate school program All by myself. A one-on-one. Yeah, like an individuated study program. And it was so cool.
00:27:20
Speaker 3: I love that you did that. That's very Sophia.
00:27:22
Speaker 2: I know.
00:27:23
Speaker 1: In the best way.
00:27:24
Speaker 3: I love that.
00:27:26
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
00:27:38
Speaker 2: I need to go back to a point in the book that stood out to me that I'm so interested in because you and I have never really had this conversation, but you write about going from Wilmington to TRL for the first time.
00:27:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:27:52
Speaker 2: And realizing that the entire crowd, which was a massive crowd, was all there for the cast, you and the cast. Yeah. And you had that realization that, oh, you're Recognizable.
00:28:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:09
Speaker 3: Okay.
00:28:11
Speaker 2: I always, anytime I read a memoir of someone who's in the public eye, I always am so curious about that experience of going from, you know, anonymous, regular digular person into someone who is known.
00:28:30
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:31
Speaker 3: And I want to know why.
00:28:34
Speaker 2: Aside from what you covered in the book about that TRL experience, what was that like for you at that young age and just like that flip that happened?
00:28:46
Speaker 1: I mean, I understand that the answer is going to make so many eyes roll, but I'm not going to be dishonest. It was pretty traumatic. It's a really weird thing to suddenly have your life change and to be chased on foot by people you don't know down the street and followed home. And to have people figure out how to get your address and show up at your office and be waiting for you at the bottom of an escalator at the airport. Like you just never know when it's coming. And it is kind of arresting. And so many people are lovely, but not everyone's lovely. And much like we're having a conversation right now in the world about why women don't know which men are the bad men. Case in point, Cornell, the guy who brought her there was her friend, so she thought. you know, you don't know which people that are like waiting for you right outside your door are nice or crazy. And so it's a weird thing to have to navigate looking out for your own safety and also trying not to offend someone. And it doesn't always work. You know, I remember I'd gotten really bad news about a family member when I was in Wilmington. And it was kind of, I want to say it was our third season, maybe fourth. And I was on the phone with my mom, still on a flip phone, like my Motorola Razr.
00:30:15
Speaker 3: May they bring those back, please.
00:30:18
Speaker 1: Right? Oh my God. By the way, I still have mine. I'm like, can I get a SIM card that fits that? And I remember just being in tears on the phone with my mom. And someone came up behind me. and wanted to take a photo and I was like, I'm so sorry, I'm on the phone with my mom, I can't right now. And the guy was with his daughter and he goes, well, you don't have to be a bitch about it in front of my kid. And I'm on the phone finding out my relative has a terminal illness, but it didn't matter, you know? And maybe I shouldn't care so much, but I don't like to disappoint people. And it's really hard to cease to be a human in certain people's eyes. And you just don't know who's going to treat you like a person. And you don't know who's going to treat you like a thing. And so I look back at it now and I feel really grateful in some senses that we were a little isolated in Wilmington. It also kind of made us sitting ducks in other ways. But it's a weird thing to go through that so many years before your prefrontal cortex is even done developing. And like, you have to remember there was no social media. There were no Instagram therapists. Nobody was like giving us advice. Nobody was doing the artist's way in the, in the crew yet. Like we were sort of rudderless with no tips and no one was advising us on how to handle it. So it was kind of a baptism by fire, but you know, then there were also such incredible opportunities. There's people you get to meet. There's, there's organizations you get to serve. There's, ways you get to use your voice. Sometimes you're a walk-in at a restaurant and you get a table, like some of it's really special, but I, I'm not going to, I don't think it's healthy to uphold this false idea that it's all so great. I think we got to tell each other the truth a little bit. And so maybe it's like too real an answer, but It was all those things.
00:32:20
Speaker 3: I appreciate the realness of the answer.
00:32:21
Speaker 2: And I think we're in a very interesting time now where there's this democratization of fame that's occurring. And when you came into the public eye, it wasn't like that. You know, paparazzi culture was still a thing. Oh my God.
00:32:36
Speaker 1: Do you remember when we used to go to Koi and they would jump on the hood of the car?
00:32:40
Speaker 2: I remember there was a picture of us. We weren't at Koi. I don't remember where it was.
00:32:46
Speaker 1: That bar on Sunset. What was it called? The Wilcox?
00:32:49
Speaker 3: The.
00:32:51
Speaker 2: Something, something.
00:32:53
Speaker 1: No, I remember. And we were like in our For Love and Lemons. Yeah, no, you had.
00:32:56
Speaker 2: Your For Love and Lemons. And then I had just made those sweatshirts for Closet Rich.
00:33:00
Speaker 1: Yes.
00:33:01
Speaker 2: And then it got paparazzi with re-wearing the sweatshirt.
00:33:04
Speaker 3: And I was like, honestly, it's pretty great.
00:33:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:33:08
Speaker 1: Oh, my God. It was funny. But it was so funny.
00:33:10
Speaker 2: And I mean, I felt like the most awkward person ever just like being with you. So I could only imagine that. Just like the like shock. Because like I see, I remember in those days if a camera went off, I would literally, that was my face. I had no idea how to respond to it.
00:33:29
Speaker 1: No, there's some people who just know how to like sort of go limp in the face and then they walk really slowly and all their pictures look really elegant. And I am not that person. I'm just not.
00:33:41
Speaker 2: And I kind of love that you're not.
00:33:43
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:33:44
Speaker 2: But like one day maybe we can practice.
00:33:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's funny. There are things you get a little conscious of. Like I was at the US Open and three of us were in a row together. really getting fired up about the game just like and that was a bullshit call and and like there was a moment where I saw these cameras turn toward us and sometimes you can't see them like the ones that are across the stadium you can't see but the ones that are right below where you're sitting you know they're big lenses so when they shift you're like oh god and immediately I looked at the girls and I was like everybody crack a smile or they're all gonna think we're yelling at each other some tabloid's gonna print a story that we're all in a fight And we're passionate about sports and we're yelling about these knuckleheads on the court. But like, it's weird things like that where, and a friend of mine who worked for the car company that had the suite for Cadillac was sitting behind me and was like, oh my God, the things you have to think about. And I was like, I didn't even realize, yeah, I guess I'm just sort of I'm accustomed to it because I've seen the article where it's like so-and-so looks miserable or somebody was upset. And you're like, no. You know, I walked out of, I don't know, some sad movie or like we were lamenting something and then laughing. But you got the photo in the moment and you printed the one that looks like something's wrong because that's what's going to get the eyeballs or the clicks. Right. So you realize in moments like that, like, you know, as a 44-year-old woman, I was like, oh man, I am jumpy around that part of the world. And I guess for a reason.
00:35:25
Speaker 2: I think there, and you alluded to this earlier, there's like the caricature of you that's like.
00:35:33
Speaker 3: Assumed.
00:35:34
Speaker 2: And then there's the you that you have the relationship with. And it must be really.
00:35:42
Speaker 3: A trip to have to experience both.
00:35:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't, that's the part I really don't love because to be sort of flattened. Yeah. You know, they take a three-dimensional human and then flatten you to print a photo. And they do kind of cast you in the role that's most beneficial to their system. So whatever they can make the clickbait money on... is what they do with you in their media. And you're just like, what is this? But in the weirdest way, I've had to learn it and understand it and have a sort of depth of competency with it. And I have to release it. So it's like, I really have had to hold it close and pull it apart and then also let it go. Right.
00:36:35
Speaker 3: Do you ever wish that you weren't recognizable? Like, are there ever moments where you're like, Oh my God.
00:36:40
Speaker 1: I think about like, I think about the famed legends, which by the way, she's pseudo confirmed of like Nicole Kidman. And back then when they were married, Tom Cruise, having like special effects people make them these incredible masks so they could actually go out in public and like go to clubs or go for a walk on the beach or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, if I was the richest actor in Hollywood, I'd have a $ 40, 000 mask so that I could go out And like, just be in the world. I would love it. And I'm not even famous like that.
00:37:13
Speaker 3: I can't imagine.
00:37:14
Speaker 1: Like, I think about Jennifer Aniston sometimes and I'm like, how has she done this for so long? At that level, I can't even fathom it.
00:37:23
Speaker 3: It's such a unique experience.
00:37:26
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:37:26
Speaker 3: That I, as like a.
00:37:30
Speaker 2: Spectator, we're not spectator, but just as like an interested person, I'm like, huh? Like, I'm so curious about the real human side of that. So thank you for indulging me on that.
00:37:40
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:37:41
Speaker 2: But I loved that bit in the book. So interesting. Would have been, like, such a trip.
00:37:47
Speaker 1: I mean, I will just never forget it because, you know, TRL had that famous window at the corner. And we all, like, pushed out to the window. And we were like, what is going on in New York today? Like, we truly didn't get it. Elizabeth. We didn't get it.
00:38:05
Speaker 2: And....
00:38:07
Speaker 1: Carson Daly was so amused and kind of laughing. And I remember, it's like when you hear people's voices for 15 hours a day, five or six days a week for 10 years of your life, you know them so well. And I remember like the slightly Southern lilt of of Hillary's response to Carson, because, you know, they worked together. I remember hearing James kind of laugh and then gasp and he's like, what? I remember Joy going, like, really? You know, and her voice goes up because she's like this amazing singer. I remember every single person, you know, like even Chad who'd just been on Dawson's Creek was like, what? Like everybody was, we knew that this was kind of crazy, no matter what we thought it meant to be on a show. And yeah, it's like one of those moments, it's weird. I can like almost smell the AC machine in the studio still. You know, it's like indelibly burned on my brain.
00:39:19
Speaker 2: It was so surreal. I, you know, I've never, admission, I've never watched One Tree Hill.
00:39:25
Speaker 4: But the book, the book, I was like, I want to watch this now and having like all this context and lore mixed in so yeah get ready for that.
00:39:37
Speaker 1: I know it's kind of crazy it's also it was weird to try to figure out how to write about it because how do you write about a decade of your life you know what's that chapter Um, but I think what I started to figure out is, and I did pick Jed's brain about this, our dear friend for our listeners at home, Jedediah Jenkins is a gorgeous writer and has his fourth memoir coming out. Um, and you know, what I, what I think I sort of settled on for myself was it's, it's decades of stories. So they're not all going to fit and that's okay. Some things can be for the next book. Should there be one? I have to see how this experience goes. Some things make sense more as reflections and what I realize in this self I learned back then because then I can kind of summarize instead of have to give a play-by-play of a decade. So hopefully it worked. It worked.
00:40:44
Speaker 2: It worked.
00:40:44
Speaker 1: Okay, good. Well, I'm just having the best of times with one of my best friends. We have so much more to talk about. Join us for part two soon.
