Where Does Employer Responsibility End? | Mark Rowland, Mental Health Foundation

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NHS mental health spending is forecast
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to reach 16.1 billion in 2026. Alongside
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hiring an additional 8.5,000 mental
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health workers 3 years ahead of
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schedule, the UK government also plans
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to make an additional 473 million pounds
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available over the next four years for
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community-based mental health support in
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a system that's previously been labeled
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as fragmented, reactive, and
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inconsistent. These developments signal
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a growing recognition that mental health
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support cannot be confined to clinical
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settings alone. The voluntary sector,
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workplaces, and schools all have their
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part to play in promoting positive
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mental health. So, what could all of
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this mean for the future of mental
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health support in the workplace? Where
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does the responsibility of the employer
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end and the responsibility of the
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employee begin? Which aspects of support
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are most likely to benefit from AI? And
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what are some of the key lessons from
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over 10 years of leading one of the UK's
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oldest mental health charities? If
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you're living next to a volcano and it's
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erupting a lot, you can take two
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options. You can learn to dance and
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avoid the lava or you can move further
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away from the volcano. AI is helping us
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solve problems that are difficult for us
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to think through on our own. I'm really
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passionate about
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preventing
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people feeling ashamed of their own
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distress. M to explore these questions.
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I'm joined by Mark Roland, current CEO
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of the Mental Health Foundation. Since
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1949, the foundation has been at the
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forefront of research, policy, and
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prevention, helping to shape the
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conversation around mental health and
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leading mental health awareness week
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across the UK. Mark, good to see you,
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and uh thank you for joining the show.
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>> Great to be here, Matt. Thanks for uh
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setting this all up.
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>> Excellent. So, um, look, we're here to
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talk about all things mental health, um,
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in and outside of the workplace. Um,
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I wanted to first talk a bit more about
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your your kind of personal journey. I
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always like to understand a bit more
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about the person that's, um, that's
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sitting in front of me and, um, well,
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previously you've spoken, um, openly
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about the impact of losing your brother
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to suicide. um obviously a deeply
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personal experience, but I'm I'm
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interested to understand a bit more
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about um your understanding of mental
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health long before you became CEO of the
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mental health foundation.
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>> Yeah, it's a great question. It's great
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to be here. Um yeah, I had um older
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brother Daniel, two and a half years
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older than me. I have a twin brother as
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well uh who's also a psychiatrist and
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working in mental health. Um and um
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about 13 years ago
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uh got a call to say that um my brother
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had been um had made an attempt on his
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life and had been taken into hospital.
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Um and um yeah, it was it was a moment
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seared in into my mind because um yeah,
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he was struggling with depression at the
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time
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>> and um he had made previous attempts and
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he um but uh he yeah he didn't recover
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and um that was just obviously
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devastating. Um and um I say to people
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that um any complex bereavement or
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sudden bereavement or shocking
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bereavement, it's like a it's like a a
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mirror that just shatters on the floor
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and you know your job is to sort of try
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to pick up those pieces as best you can
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and make sense of it. Um and that was
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that was definitely my experience took
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took a long time. Um but um
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I don't think I had had thought that
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much about mental health in a clear way
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before that just how important it was
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what the dos and don'ts are
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and importantly just a bit like with
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compound interest
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that you can have the reverse with
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mental health like patterns of negative
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thinking and
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self-t talk that's toxic
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>> can compound over many years and then it
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can have um you know literally a
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devastating impact.
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>> Serious analogies there.
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What stands out most when you look back
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at that period now?
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>> Probably for me it's just a real I mean
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it's the definition of tragedy Matt.
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It's the definition that you know
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suicide is is a permanent response to a
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temporary problem. There was a way
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through. There was an answer
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>> but he had reached a point in which um
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he didn't believe it could get better.
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He felt he was trapped. And that's a
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real key risk for suicide is feeling
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like there are no other options other
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than experiencing this degree of pain.
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Um but there were other options for him.
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There was there there was nothing
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wrong with him. He just had some stuff
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that needed to to work through. So I
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just look back on that time and um I was
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very fortunate to have a loving family.
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I was very fortunate to be able to make
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sense of what had happened both to him
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and and to me
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and that sense making is absolutely
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vital if you can draw something positive
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>> from those kinds of um and I have you
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know I have I have drawn something
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positive from it
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>> almost a sense of acceptance
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>> certainly ac acceptance but also growth
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>> like they talk about I didn't know that
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there post-traumatic growth that was
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possible. You know, I didn't know that
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actually some of the most defining and
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difficult experiences of our lives can
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be the things that enable us to most
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fully
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um become ourselves and use our gifts to
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our greatest potential. Um, and
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it felt like a defining moment. I
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remember almost feeling like this is
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where you are going to have to put your
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you're going to almost have to be an
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adult now.
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>> Yeah.
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>> This is the real thing now.
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>> Yeah.
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>> This is life throwing something that
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you're going to have to to manage and
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you've got some choices about how you do
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that.
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>> Well, firstly, thanks for sharing that
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and yeah, I mean some similar
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experiences.
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So you know in terms of losing a close
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family member to suicide um but also
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>> um the role that running
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>> now actively plays a part in both of our
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lives.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Can you tell me a bit more about the
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role that fitness has played in your
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life since then?
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>> I mean I actually I've had like two
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traumatic events in my life. M
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>> one was getting divorced and waking up
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one day and being told um I no long by
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my my my wife that at the time I no
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longer think this is working. I don't
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want to be with you. That was a that was
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a big shock and that happened a couple
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of years maybe two or three years before
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my brother died and then my my brother
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died. So I started running after I got
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um divorced and separated just as a way
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of sort of processing and I knew I was
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safe. I wasn't I wasn't going to do
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anyone any harm. It wasn't complicated.
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I could just be with myself and and um
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so that was that was in my early early
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30s. And um yeah, ever since then
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running has been, you know, a source of
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consolation, but also like it helps
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process my thinking and emotions in a
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really constructive and useful way. But
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it also has been a source of great
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adventure, great fun, great com
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camaraderie. I've had some of the I
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would say the peak experiences of my
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life have been through running and
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so it it's kind of been there at the
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lowest moments and the highest moments.
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It's enabled me to sort of experience
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both of those. So yeah, um I love
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running.
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>> You mentioned um I guess peak
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experiences then. So what what would you
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say looking back has been the kind of
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you know crowning moment in your in your
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running career today?
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>> Um I mean it the peak experience that
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stands out is we did the Patty Buckley
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which is a all of the peaks of Snowonia
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47 of them. Um and you
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>> you only usually hear about two.
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>> No, there's load. Yeah.
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>> Har and Yeah, there are there there's
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there's a lot. And um the actual
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challenge is you got to do it in 24
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hours. Um we did it we did do it over 3
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days. Um but
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it was totally self-supported carrying
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our own water very very hot and you were
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going through bogs and trails which were
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not well established. So it was a fight.
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>> Yeah.
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>> And the third day um I was I was done
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after day two. I'd given up and we went
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back to and I got my feet were in
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terrible condition. Got up the next day
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and and I just said I'm just going to do
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the first hour
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>> and then I'll do
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until lunch and then I'll do until mid
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till the middle afternoon. And in the
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end I made it through the third day and
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coming down the last hill it the sun was
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setting. Wow. We had done over we done
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10,000 feet a day and you know about 25
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miles a day but loads and loads of
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climbing and and it was just go and we
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were going back to see our friend and
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the sun was setting
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and I just had such an incredible
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experience of uh
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inner warmth and um
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fulfillment, satisfaction and joy.
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>> Yeah. I mean, talk about painting a
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picture, the sunset and um from the
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sunset to the bogs. I also think there's
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a bit of an analogy there and this is
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what I take from running as well. Um
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especially being a trail runner um in so
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much as when when life does get hard um
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sometimes you are forced just to take it
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one moment, one hour, one mile
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>> at a time.
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>> I was literally being like the guy, one
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of our guys had to drop out cuz he got
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injured, right? And the the other guy
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was literally like I needed his help. He
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almost had to push me up the mountains.
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We had very little food and very little
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water. It was I was right on the edge of
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what I could endure. And yeah, I think
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there were just so many lessons. And the
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the thing about running is it gives you
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a great sense of self-esteem. Right.
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Setting challenges and meeting them
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helps
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>> helps to give you a bit of a backstory
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of I can manage difficult things and
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that that you know has been really
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important for
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>> for my my confidence a little backstory
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back a back catalog of difficult stuff
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we've done I think is really useful. Um
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not not in a kind of I can do anything.
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I'm
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>> I'm imper you know I'm some super human
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but it's like
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>> a little reminder. Yeah, because you
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you're humble because you know how how
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close it's been. It's been a struggle.
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You haven't like it hasn't been easy.
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And I think that that's uh
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>> I love running for that.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. You and me both. Um Wow.
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Yeah. I mean, I'd love to I think
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periodically I would be tempted just to
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look back at the uh the old Garmin stats
00:11:30.800 --> 00:11:32.710
on that one just to see the elevation
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and um you know, the amount of calories
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burned. I mean that's incredible.
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>> Um so thinking about reflections over
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time.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Right. thinking about the main lessons
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from 10 years at the helm of the mental
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health foundation.
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>> Yeah.
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>> So over the past decade, you've seen I
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mean I'm sure there's a number for this,
00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:51.509
but I'm going to say countless reports,
00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:53.110
campaigns, conversations about mental
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health. And with that comes, I would say
00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:58.230
I would imagine a unique vantage point
00:11:58.240 --> 00:11:59.829
um with which to observe changes in
00:11:59.839 --> 00:12:01.910
society, workplaces, and also public
00:12:01.920 --> 00:12:02.870
attitudes
00:12:02.880 --> 00:12:05.509
>> towards mental health. So what would you
00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:07.110
say is something that you believed about
00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:08.870
mental health 10 years ago that's since
00:12:08.880 --> 00:12:11.110
changed? It's a great question and so
00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:13.590
much has changed in 10 years. I mean,
00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:15.670
let me just paint a picture of where we
00:12:15.680 --> 00:12:19.509
were 10 years ago, because I remember
00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:21.910
um taking the job and I remember when
00:12:21.920 --> 00:12:24.790
the royal family first spoke about their
00:12:24.800 --> 00:12:26.629
experiences of of mental health, which
00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:27.829
was 2016,
00:12:27.839 --> 00:12:28.870
>> and I [clears throat] remember getting
00:12:28.880 --> 00:12:32.150
called on to CNN and the BBC and told
00:12:32.160 --> 00:12:34.470
why why why do we need to talk about
00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:36.150
mental illness? Why do we need to talk
00:12:36.160 --> 00:12:38.069
about mental health problems? Isn't that
00:12:38.079 --> 00:12:41.110
just a thing that just kind of is a
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:43.990
minority issue? It's a niche issue.
00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:48.949
>> Um and um that you know there wasn't a
00:12:48.959 --> 00:12:51.910
mental health minister uh in in the
00:12:51.920 --> 00:12:52.870
government. There wasn't someone
00:12:52.880 --> 00:12:54.710
responsible for mental health or suicide
00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.870
prevention. So a lot has changed um in
00:12:58.880 --> 00:12:59.990
terms of mental health being
00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.790
prioritized. It being recognized very
00:13:02.800 --> 00:13:06.629
simply the extent to which human beings
00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:09.110
struggle psychologically
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:11.430
wasn't fully recognized. We thought
00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:12.870
there was a small number of people who
00:13:12.880 --> 00:13:14.550
were mentally ill and everyone else who
00:13:14.560 --> 00:13:17.110
was mentally fine. Turns out it's not
00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:17.670
the case.
00:13:17.680 --> 00:13:18.389
>> No.
00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:20.069
>> Almost one in two of us will experience
00:13:20.079 --> 00:13:21.430
a period of poor mental health in our
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.350
lifetime. And a 100% of us will
00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:26.710
struggle. 100% of us will struggle. And
00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:29.110
I don't think I don't think I realized
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:31.430
that when I I think I probably came into
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.350
this thinking I'm one of the people with
00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:36.710
good mental health and there are
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:39.990
probably other people and and actually
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.069
my experiences
00:13:42.079 --> 00:13:44.470
um since then the power of listening to
00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:46.550
people with lived experience it's just
00:13:46.560 --> 00:13:48.230
echoed and chimed with my own experience
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:49.590
and that's been one of the best things
00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:53.110
Matt is like I'm working in a job which
00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:56.310
makes sense of who I am and my my own
00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:59.269
inner experiences and and help me to
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.150
have a less less shame and le and more
00:14:02.160 --> 00:14:03.990
acceptance around what I struggle with
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.150
in my own day life. So I think that's
00:14:06.160 --> 00:14:09.189
shifted like the extent to which there
00:14:09.199 --> 00:14:11.030
is a spectrum of mental health
00:14:11.040 --> 00:14:14.310
experiences that um that I think is is
00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:15.750
is much more common than we first
00:14:15.760 --> 00:14:18.870
thought. Um
00:14:18.880 --> 00:14:21.430
yeah and I think I also
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:24.069
I also
00:14:24.079 --> 00:14:26.790
I also missed
00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:30.389
that just how important
00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:35.269
big societal shifts 2016 was pre-rexit.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:36.550
>> Yes. Yes it was. Yeah.
00:14:36.560 --> 00:14:40.310
>> 2016 was pre the pandemic.
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:44.389
You know 2016 was pre-Trump.
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:49.350
Um, and 2016 was before we had reckoned
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:51.990
with the role of social media and its
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:54.069
impact on young people.
00:14:54.079 --> 00:14:57.269
>> So, we've had So, I didn't sitting there
00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:00.949
in 2016, I didn't realize just how much
00:15:00.959 --> 00:15:05.110
um political, social, global issues
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.509
had massive impacts and implications for
00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:08.550
mental health and probably
00:15:08.560 --> 00:15:10.150
underestimated
00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:11.910
that. I was still in kind of like I was
00:15:11.920 --> 00:15:14.550
still probably more concerned with um
00:15:14.560 --> 00:15:17.509
how someone
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:20.629
dealt with their own issues or kind of
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:21.990
thinking about mental health through an
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:23.990
individual lens rather than a societal
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:25.110
societal lens.
00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:26.949
>> Well, there's a lot of lessons there. I
00:15:26.959 --> 00:15:29.910
mean firstly there's the the recognition
00:15:29.920 --> 00:15:32.069
um in that time frame that you know
00:15:32.079 --> 00:15:33.590
mental health issues aren't you know
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:35.189
kind of the uh for the reserve of you
00:15:35.199 --> 00:15:37.750
know a niche segment of society. um
00:15:37.760 --> 00:15:39.910
through you know doing this kind of work
00:15:39.920 --> 00:15:42.150
and and I I I feel similar as well in
00:15:42.160 --> 00:15:43.990
terms of you know getting to hear about
00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.350
other people's lived experience it
00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:47.670
almost creates a space where you can um
00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:49.110
make sense of some of your own
00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:50.470
experiences as well. I think that's
00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:52.230
really important. But then also just to
00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:53.910
your last uh kind of summary there in
00:15:53.920 --> 00:15:56.550
terms of the different um things that we
00:15:56.560 --> 00:15:58.710
now know um and have a clearer picture
00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:00.470
of how it affects people's mental health
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.790
and they are they are individual but
00:16:02.800 --> 00:16:04.870
also multi-layered and um what's to use
00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:07.110
your phrase compound over time as well.
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.030
>> Um I think that's that's that's really
00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:09.670
interesting.
00:16:09.680 --> 00:16:11.430
>> Yeah. Um, one of the shifts that we've
00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:14.310
seen is the uh is the the the move from
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:16.069
workplace well-being kind of being on
00:16:16.079 --> 00:16:18.710
the margins back then through to the the
00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:20.389
mainstream, which
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:22.150
>> I would say is undoubtedly a positive
00:16:22.160 --> 00:16:25.110
thing. Um, at the same time, not every
00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:27.030
popular idea necessarily delivers the
00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:29.269
outcomes that people hope for.
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:31.829
So the question off the back of that is
00:16:31.839 --> 00:16:35.189
what's one workplace well-being trend
00:16:35.199 --> 00:16:37.749
that's gained popularity in that time
00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:39.749
that perhaps concerns you now
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.790
>> one trend I think that is you see we
00:16:42.800 --> 00:16:44.870
work with quite a few companies and you
00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:48.550
can see it quite quickly is the focus on
00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:53.829
um kind of doing uh sort of individual
00:16:53.839 --> 00:16:57.110
well-being activities whether or not and
00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.790
but before addressing ing some of the um
00:17:00.800 --> 00:17:02.949
more structural things that affect
00:17:02.959 --> 00:17:05.669
people's mental health. So, so that
00:17:05.679 --> 00:17:07.350
that's frustrating. Like I've worked
00:17:07.360 --> 00:17:10.150
with big transport companies
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.069
>> who
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.590
have given staff the opportunity to sort
00:17:15.600 --> 00:17:19.510
of do yoga in, you know, in the
00:17:19.520 --> 00:17:21.990
evenings. But they they haven't
00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.669
addressed um safety concerns that is
00:17:25.679 --> 00:17:28.630
causing or or the length of their um
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:30.710
their shift patterns or when they're you
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.029
know and and not allowing for reasonable
00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:35.190
adjustments in in the way that they work
00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:36.310
especially people who struggling with
00:17:36.320 --> 00:17:39.270
their mental health. So I I suppose
00:17:39.280 --> 00:17:41.110
that's that's frustrating
00:17:41.120 --> 00:17:43.990
>> where you get kind of the easy pickings
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.230
but not um not dealing with
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:49.909
you know issues around pay,
00:17:49.919 --> 00:17:53.830
transparency, fairness, those are those
00:17:53.840 --> 00:17:56.630
are really those are really important.
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.029
>> Yes. So I guess the kind of nature of
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.029
work and and and setting people up to
00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:03.590
succeed and and you can't change you
00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:06.390
can't make work easy and risk-f free and
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:08.710
a utopia
00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:11.830
but the organizations that do it well
00:18:11.840 --> 00:18:15.430
think about well-being from this and the
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:16.710
evidence is really clear because I've
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:18.310
just done this for the independent
00:18:18.320 --> 00:18:20.470
review on the prevalence of poor mental
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:22.390
health. The evidence is really clear
00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:25.430
that organizational approaches to mental
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:27.029
health and well-being work better than
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:30.549
individual kind of interventions around
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.669
um even things around mindfulness or
00:18:33.679 --> 00:18:36.710
yoga or kind of having um having a
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.830
well-being room or those those sorts of
00:18:39.840 --> 00:18:41.510
individual approaches. M
00:18:41.520 --> 00:18:43.750
>> I mean a classic one
00:18:43.760 --> 00:18:46.310
>> that employees get wrong repeatedly time
00:18:46.320 --> 00:18:50.070
and again is that they will do uh they
00:18:50.080 --> 00:18:52.310
will do well-being activities
00:18:52.320 --> 00:18:56.630
>> but they won't spot or work with
00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:58.150
employees who are struggling with their
00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:00.470
mental health early.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.310
They don't manage absence well. Um and
00:19:04.320 --> 00:19:07.029
you get the worst of all outcomes where
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.870
people leave the workplace. There's no
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:12.789
plan. There's no plan to prevent them
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:14.070
leaving
00:19:14.080 --> 00:19:16.549
>> and there's no plan proactive plan to
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:18.789
bring them back into the workplace.
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:20.789
People, especially in relation to mental
00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:22.310
health, people feel like, I'll just
00:19:22.320 --> 00:19:24.630
leave it. I'm worried about they just
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:26.950
probably need space. Actually what the
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:28.630
evidence really shows that both for the
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.070
organization and especially for the
00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:33.669
individual that support trust in
00:19:33.679 --> 00:19:35.270
thoughtful
00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:37.909
engagement when someone's off work and
00:19:37.919 --> 00:19:40.150
making every effort to bring people back
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.669
in when it's right for them a and as
00:19:43.679 --> 00:19:45.510
soon as possible is better for the
00:19:45.520 --> 00:19:48.549
individual. Mhm.
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:50.789
I mean, there's a lot of choice. There's
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:52.630
a lot of choice out there when and
00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:53.909
there's a there's a lot of different
00:19:53.919 --> 00:19:55.990
directions that organizations
00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:58.310
can go where this is concerned. If if
00:19:58.320 --> 00:20:00.070
there were cuz you mentioned, you know,
00:20:00.080 --> 00:20:01.590
the the review and, you know, the
00:20:01.600 --> 00:20:04.150
evidence. So, if there were, let's just
00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:06.070
say, I don't know, three evidence-based
00:20:06.080 --> 00:20:07.830
actions that would improve mental health
00:20:07.840 --> 00:20:09.510
most in workplaces,
00:20:09.520 --> 00:20:11.350
>> what would they be?
00:20:11.360 --> 00:20:15.190
Well, one of one of them would be have a
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:19.190
really tight and clear approach to
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.070
acting early, preventing absence, and
00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:24.710
then managing absence in a proactive
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.630
way. Like being really smart and
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.070
effective about that when you last year
00:20:30.080 --> 00:20:33.830
we lost 22 million days to mental health
00:20:33.840 --> 00:20:38.070
related um absence. It's over 50% of all
00:20:38.080 --> 00:20:38.630
absence.
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:40.149
>> Yeah. leading cause of long-term
00:20:40.159 --> 00:20:41.750
sickness absence lasting four weeks or
00:20:41.760 --> 00:20:42.230
longer.
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:42.789
>> Exactly.
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:43.350
>> Right.
00:20:43.360 --> 00:20:45.029
>> So
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.350
given and and it's risen. It's since
00:20:47.360 --> 00:20:50.149
2015, there's been about a million more
00:20:50.159 --> 00:20:53.270
people taking leave from the workplace.
00:20:53.280 --> 00:20:55.350
So that that tells you two things. One
00:20:55.360 --> 00:20:57.830
is that there is not enough action
00:20:57.840 --> 00:20:59.350
happening before people leave. Not
00:20:59.360 --> 00:21:01.350
enough not enough engagement
00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:03.830
understanding what is what is going on?
00:21:03.840 --> 00:21:05.350
Where are the pinch points? Where is the
00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:06.549
pressure? What does a reasonable
00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.029
adjustment mean for you so that you
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:10.630
could stay in work
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:11.590
>> and [clears throat] then not enough
00:21:11.600 --> 00:21:13.190
action happening once people have left
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:14.710
work to bring them back in in a
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:16.870
compassionate and sensitive but also
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:18.470
could be challen you know a challenging
00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:21.110
way we evidence is really clear it's bad
00:21:21.120 --> 00:21:23.350
for your mental health to not be in work
00:21:23.360 --> 00:21:25.830
on absence. So the long it's the longer
00:21:25.840 --> 00:21:27.590
you're off the least chance you're going
00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:28.950
to come back but the worse it is for
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.549
your mental health outcomes as well. So
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:31.909
we've got to have a system that is
00:21:31.919 --> 00:21:35.190
preventative but also proactive. Um, so
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.830
I would say that's one link linked to
00:21:37.840 --> 00:21:39.270
that is really good line manager
00:21:39.280 --> 00:21:40.230
support.
00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:43.830
>> Can you be human, compassionate, clear,
00:21:43.840 --> 00:21:47.110
honest, challenging? And and here's the
00:21:47.120 --> 00:21:49.029
thing, Matt. I think here's one of the
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:51.270
things I don't like about some of the
00:21:51.280 --> 00:21:53.270
well-being
00:21:53.280 --> 00:21:55.430
approaches in the work. I think a lot of
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.590
them are paternalistic. They're like
00:21:57.600 --> 00:21:58.789
parent child,
00:21:58.799 --> 00:21:59.430
>> right?
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:01.750
>> Not adult to adult. What you want to
00:22:01.760 --> 00:22:05.909
shoot for is is is a workplace is an
00:22:05.919 --> 00:22:08.549
adult environment. You want to have
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:11.990
relationships where you feel cared for
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.830
and someone's going to tell tell you the
00:22:13.840 --> 00:22:16.470
truth about what what what you need and
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:17.029
>> love that
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:18.870
>> and and I think if you can get that and
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.110
the fact that in a workplace it's not
00:22:21.120 --> 00:22:24.310
just you need to be able to think about
00:22:24.320 --> 00:22:26.070
what is right for this individual and
00:22:26.080 --> 00:22:28.870
also what's the wider ecosystem what's
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.950
the impact on the team and it's kind of
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:32.390
simple to just think about the
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.789
individual but line managers need to
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:36.230
think about what are the impacts for the
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:37.669
rest of the team and be able to weigh
00:22:37.679 --> 00:22:39.110
tradeoffs and those are sometimes
00:22:39.120 --> 00:22:40.549
difficult to manage. So I would say
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:43.110
managing absence, line management
00:22:43.120 --> 00:22:44.549
support
00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:46.310
>> and then
00:22:46.320 --> 00:22:48.549
policies that support psychological
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:51.669
safety um and create kind of a culture
00:22:51.679 --> 00:22:54.549
of belonging and of active engagement.
00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:57.190
You want people participating
00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:59.830
in in the workplace. So you know
00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:01.990
policies around bullying and harassment
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:03.669
really important but also proactive
00:23:03.679 --> 00:23:05.750
environments where people are engaged is
00:23:05.760 --> 00:23:07.750
really important. So th those those
00:23:07.760 --> 00:23:09.830
three things like places of belonging,
00:23:09.840 --> 00:23:12.470
ways of to engage people, um
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.270
psychological safety, um absence
00:23:15.280 --> 00:23:16.870
management and life management training
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:18.710
are the three best evidence stuff that
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:20.870
employers can do and it will it will it
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:22.149
will have a great impact on mental
00:23:22.159 --> 00:23:23.750
health but it'll also have an impact on
00:23:23.760 --> 00:23:25.669
productivity as well which um is just
00:23:25.679 --> 00:23:27.990
thrown in as a bonus. Yeah, I mean
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:29.830
there's a big gap in the market for it.
00:23:29.840 --> 00:23:31.270
And that might sound cynical, but just
00:23:31.280 --> 00:23:32.710
talking about the data, according to the
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.590
CIPD, it's only 29% of organizations
00:23:35.600 --> 00:23:38.070
surveyed um as of last year
00:23:38.080 --> 00:23:39.990
>> actively train their managers to have
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:41.430
supportive conversations about mental
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:42.230
health.
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.270
>> And the other thing as well you
00:23:43.280 --> 00:23:45.750
mentioned about um you know being a bit
00:23:45.760 --> 00:23:47.110
more proactive in terms of you know
00:23:47.120 --> 00:23:48.870
trying to keep people in the workforce.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:50.149
That doesn't have to be anything
00:23:50.159 --> 00:23:52.310
complicated. It could be something
00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:54.230
>> something I've heard recently is is um
00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:55.830
just something like asking the question.
00:23:55.840 --> 00:23:57.909
So when somebody leaves an organization,
00:23:57.919 --> 00:23:59.909
you have an exit interview.
00:23:59.919 --> 00:24:01.990
>> Um and I heard an example, I cannot
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.950
remember which organization it was, but
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:06.149
somebody I was talking to and they
00:24:06.159 --> 00:24:07.190
mentioned that actually one thing that
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.110
they do are stay interviews.
00:24:09.120 --> 00:24:09.830
>> Yeah.
00:24:09.840 --> 00:24:12.470
>> So before that that proactive piece
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:13.909
before anybody look, you know, looks
00:24:13.919 --> 00:24:15.750
like they're maybe uh struggling or
00:24:15.760 --> 00:24:17.430
having a challenge or actually they
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:20.230
they're off sick for um you know, some
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:21.510
amount of time, they're actually having
00:24:21.520 --> 00:24:23.269
interviews to find out, hey, why do you
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:25.029
stay here and how can we do more of it?
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:26.870
I mean, it's a really key point. Stay in
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:28.230
work plans,
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:30.070
>> not just return to work plans. The stay
00:24:30.080 --> 00:24:32.470
in work is the preventative and it's the
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.630
reasonable adjustments is what you're
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:36.789
entitled to under law under under the
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:38.310
Equality Act. So, if you're struggling
00:24:38.320 --> 00:24:40.310
with your mental health, it's you are
00:24:40.320 --> 00:24:42.950
entitled to your employer is required to
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:44.390
give reasonable adjustments and that's
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:46.070
really important that those
00:24:46.080 --> 00:24:47.430
conversations happening, but it has to
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.430
have that that sort of trust. The other
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:52.549
thing we looked at is GPS offering sick
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.430
notes when someone goes with a mental
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:56.470
health problem.
00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.029
>> Now the GP has another option. There is
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:03.350
a maybe fit for for work note. So the GP
00:25:03.360 --> 00:25:05.909
has a presentating has a presentation of
00:25:05.919 --> 00:25:07.350
a patient struggling with mental health
00:25:07.360 --> 00:25:12.310
at work. Uh about 93% of the time a sick
00:25:12.320 --> 00:25:14.070
note or a fit note is saying okay don't
00:25:14.080 --> 00:25:16.710
go to work. But what we think is is a
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:18.549
much better approach would be to use the
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:21.350
maybe fit to work. What what maybe there
00:25:21.360 --> 00:25:23.029
are some adjustments that could be made.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:24.789
Maybe there's some changes in the tasks
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:27.350
that are needed. Maybe there's a some
00:25:27.360 --> 00:25:29.029
issues that need to be sorted out. But
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:31.110
instead of just jumping to the the best
00:25:31.120 --> 00:25:33.750
option is just to leave the workplace.
00:25:33.760 --> 00:25:36.149
Maybe the best be a better option would
00:25:36.159 --> 00:25:38.230
be a maybe fit to work. Let's see
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:39.669
whether or not we could do condensed
00:25:39.679 --> 00:25:41.510
downs or make some adjustments to make
00:25:41.520 --> 00:25:43.909
this to your point to enable people to
00:25:43.919 --> 00:25:47.909
stay in work. And that that goal of
00:25:47.919 --> 00:25:50.549
ensuring that people do stay in work if
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:52.870
you can. Sometimes it's not possible.
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:55.190
Sometimes you need rest and recovery and
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:58.230
space and that's fine. But we should be
00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:00.310
asking the question is there a way to
00:26:00.320 --> 00:26:02.390
prevent that absence because the
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.230
outcomes of absence for mental health
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:06.789
and the individual are so poor.
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:08.710
>> Sure. and and just thinking about you
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:10.149
know this whole kind of preventative
00:26:10.159 --> 00:26:12.070
approach um and thinking about the
00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:14.390
changes um in terms of that approach
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:18.149
from from GPS um the workplaces and also
00:26:18.159 --> 00:26:21.110
legally from the government um the uh
00:26:21.120 --> 00:26:23.350
new mental health care strategy from the
00:26:23.360 --> 00:26:25.029
government um it's you know recently
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:26.070
been kind of announced I think it was
00:26:26.080 --> 00:26:27.350
back in May and um
00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:29.269
>> announced in this office I might add
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:29.830
>> was it really
00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:32.230
>> we had the minister come here uh during
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:35.110
mental health awareness week and um and
00:26:35.120 --> 00:26:36.710
she actually sat in this room and met
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:39.510
with young people and yeah launched it
00:26:39.520 --> 00:26:41.750
uh launched it here which we were very
00:26:41.760 --> 00:26:42.310
proud of.
00:26:42.320 --> 00:26:43.909
>> I didn't know that actually. That's uh
00:26:43.919 --> 00:26:46.149
that's really cool. Um so the the new
00:26:46.159 --> 00:26:48.470
mental health care strategy has the
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:50.710
potential to influence how support is
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.909
delivered for years to come. So you know
00:26:53.919 --> 00:26:55.190
leading up to that the government's
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.110
obviously um hired an extra 8 and a half
00:26:57.120 --> 00:26:59.990
thousand mental health support workers
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.630
um three years ahead of target. But very
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:03.669
specifically in terms of this
00:27:03.679 --> 00:27:07.110
preventative approach um it is going to
00:27:07.120 --> 00:27:09.029
look at well going to look beyond
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:10.789
clinical settings to consider the roles
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:12.950
of schools the voluntary sector and
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:16.230
workplaces in promoting um positive
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:17.750
mental health.
00:27:17.760 --> 00:27:20.149
>> So what do you think this could mean for
00:27:20.159 --> 00:27:21.510
the future of mental health in the
00:27:21.520 --> 00:27:24.630
workplace?
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:25.990
>> What's possible implications?
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:28.149
>> Yeah, I mean I think yeah we've touched
00:27:28.159 --> 00:27:30.870
on some of them. Um, first of all, it's
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.070
just really positive as a an
00:27:34.080 --> 00:27:36.310
organization and as a campaigner in my
00:27:36.320 --> 00:27:38.390
roots. I I came up through human rights.
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:39.909
So, before I came into mental health, I
00:27:39.919 --> 00:27:41.029
was working on human rights and
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:42.870
international development. And my first
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:45.750
job in in human rights was working to
00:27:45.760 --> 00:27:48.710
get some campaigning to get uh a human
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:50.870
rights campaigner out of prison in in
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:52.549
Myanmar in Burma.
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:53.830
>> And we did it.
00:27:53.840 --> 00:27:55.350
>> I was going to say you were Yeah. How
00:27:55.360 --> 00:27:56.070
did it work out?
00:27:56.080 --> 00:27:59.350
>> Yeah. After about 18 months, we managed
00:27:59.360 --> 00:28:01.510
to get the Burmese. We got such a fuss
00:28:01.520 --> 00:28:03.029
they released him. I went, "You guys are
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:05.510
just causing we we did all sorts like
00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:07.590
create a bamboo cage outside the Burmese
00:28:07.600 --> 00:28:09.269
embassy. Lots of media, lots of
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:11.430
campaigning and lobbying." But it was so
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:13.430
satisfying to see the result.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:14.230
>> Mhm.
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.190
>> With this over the last few years, our
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:20.789
key call for the government has been we
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.430
don't just need more clinical resources
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:25.430
when people get ill. I mean the the the
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.190
mental health crisis and let's be really
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:30.149
clear about this Matt like we are facing
00:28:30.159 --> 00:28:32.950
an existential societal issue in terms
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:34.870
of the quality of people's mental
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:36.630
health. [clears throat]
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:41.350
>> We we have in the last 10 years seen a
00:28:41.360 --> 00:28:43.909
very significant reduction in the
00:28:43.919 --> 00:28:45.430
quality of people's mental health
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:47.590
especially for young people. So the
00:28:47.600 --> 00:28:49.990
number of young people experiencing poor
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:53.350
mental health has gone from about 15% to
00:28:53.360 --> 00:28:54.870
25%.
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:57.110
Um and it's having a massive impact in
00:28:57.120 --> 00:28:59.190
terms of the the key thing that's
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:00.710
happening as well is you're not just
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.230
seeing greater levels of psychological
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.950
distress. Matt, you're seeing a lack um
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:08.630
a much greater reduction in
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:10.230
participation
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:14.230
in education and work as a result. So
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:16.789
>> is that neat? So these are the acronym
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:16.950
right
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:18.870
>> yeah some pe young people who are not in
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:20.389
education
00:29:20.399 --> 00:29:23.110
um training
00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:25.510
you well I don't know what the other
00:29:25.520 --> 00:29:28.230
education something and training yeah
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:31.830
>> um I should know that um but yeah and
00:29:31.840 --> 00:29:33.350
then to to the point that we were saying
00:29:33.360 --> 00:29:35.669
earlier on this has got a massive
00:29:35.679 --> 00:29:38.230
implication for for employers one of the
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:39.830
key things in our in our
00:29:39.840 --> 00:29:41.430
>> sorry it's education employment or
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:43.909
training ne we were thinking about na
00:29:43.919 --> 00:29:44.789
it's yeah so
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:47.669
>> that's employment of course. So we have
00:29:47.679 --> 00:29:49.909
got it's going to be a real focus of our
00:29:49.919 --> 00:29:52.950
next strategy moving forward is helping
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:54.950
young people transition into that first
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:57.350
year of life and first year of work and
00:29:57.360 --> 00:29:58.630
make sure that that is a positive
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:00.310
experience. How can you equip employers?
00:30:00.320 --> 00:30:02.070
How can you equip young people? How can
00:30:02.080 --> 00:30:04.630
you open up those opportunities?
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:07.830
Um and it turns out that that first year
00:30:07.840 --> 00:30:11.669
of working life um if you can ensure
00:30:11.679 --> 00:30:13.350
that that's a positive one the life
00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:15.990
outcomes that you enhance as a result of
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.870
that first year of life if it goes badly
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:20.710
the scarring effect is very very
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:25.510
significant. Um so the hopefully what I
00:30:25.520 --> 00:30:27.350
was what I was saying is that we we're
00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:29.190
facing this big mental health crisis
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.269
where the data is showing that distress
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:33.110
is getting worse and it's not just mild
00:30:33.120 --> 00:30:34.549
forms of distress. Mhm.
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:38.149
>> We're seeing um severe forms of
00:30:38.159 --> 00:30:40.310
generalized anxiety across population
00:30:40.320 --> 00:30:41.830
that we haven't seen before. This is
00:30:41.840 --> 00:30:44.470
enduring. This is six months of distress
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.430
with physical symptoms. We're seeing a
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:50.070
much greater uh role of self
00:30:50.080 --> 00:30:52.950
non-suicidal self harm is rising very
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:57.190
significantly. Sleep is is an issue. So
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.669
we've got a societal issue that we can
00:30:59.679 --> 00:31:01.669
choose to do two things. One is you can
00:31:01.679 --> 00:31:03.430
turn around to those young people and
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:04.950
say pull your socks up guys what is
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:06.630
wrong with you we didn't you know it was
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:08.950
fine for us we managed
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:10.310
>> I feel like that hasn't worked out well
00:31:10.320 --> 00:31:10.789
so far
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:11.990
>> right
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:15.029
>> but also or you can say actually we need
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:17.990
a societal response that says okay there
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.430
are some significant risks and
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:20.950
challenges that we've faced in the last
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:23.350
10 to 15 years not least growing
00:31:23.360 --> 00:31:25.269
inequality global shocks and the role of
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:28.230
technology and the data really shows
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:31.110
that we've unleashed this technology
00:31:31.120 --> 00:31:33.830
um at a time of great uncertainty for
00:31:33.840 --> 00:31:35.190
young people economically and
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:37.110
financially and those things have come
00:31:37.120 --> 00:31:39.110
together and they have had a really
00:31:39.120 --> 00:31:40.630
really big impact on young people's
00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:42.389
mental health especially. So the
00:31:42.399 --> 00:31:45.269
crossgovernment mental health plan is
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:47.509
the an attempt and is a big campaign win
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:49.350
for us and it's it's really just a
00:31:49.360 --> 00:31:51.190
chance for us to say actually in the
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:53.350
different domains of society, how can we
00:31:53.360 --> 00:31:56.630
create environments that tip us a little
00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:00.070
bit uh that tip the odds in favor of
00:32:00.080 --> 00:32:01.990
protecting and supporting mental health,
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:05.350
acting early, preventing and and and
00:32:05.360 --> 00:32:07.269
doing what we call like a task shifting
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:10.630
which is enrolling people with you know
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:11.990
with whether Whether it's community
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:13.990
workers, whether it's people in schools,
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.470
whether it's employers in recognizing
00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:18.310
their role in supporting people's mental
00:32:18.320 --> 00:32:19.190
health. They don't have to be
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:22.070
psychiatrists or counselors, but they
00:32:22.080 --> 00:32:24.149
need to be active in this societalwide
00:32:24.159 --> 00:32:26.149
movement to say, "Actually, we've all
00:32:26.159 --> 00:32:28.230
got a role to play in creating the
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:32.549
conditions for for human beings to um to
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:34.950
live with good mental health."
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:36.389
>> Yeah. I'd not thought I'd not thought of
00:32:36.399 --> 00:32:39.110
it in in in so much detail before in
00:32:39.120 --> 00:32:41.110
specifically in terms of the impact of
00:32:41.120 --> 00:32:43.750
you know um that first year of work for
00:32:43.760 --> 00:32:45.909
for um young people and what that means
00:32:45.919 --> 00:32:47.830
going forward. But but but thinking
00:32:47.840 --> 00:32:51.110
about um thinking about what that means
00:32:51.120 --> 00:32:52.950
in terms of I guess the expectations
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:55.190
that are put on workplaces, specifically
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:56.950
leaders, and what we would describe as a
00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:59.590
a reasonable social contract that there
00:32:59.600 --> 00:33:01.110
was um
00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:02.310
>> I mean look, one of the one of the
00:33:02.320 --> 00:33:04.230
tensions that I find increasingly um
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:05.750
interesting is that relationship between
00:33:05.760 --> 00:33:07.430
support and responsibility. And you you
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:08.870
kind of touched on it earlier speaking
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:10.389
about that kind of how it's done at the
00:33:10.399 --> 00:33:13.110
moment. It's almost paternal um and and
00:33:13.120 --> 00:33:15.269
you know, we want to kind of shift away
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:17.830
from that. um employee employers are
00:33:17.840 --> 00:33:20.149
being asked to do more than ever before.
00:33:20.159 --> 00:33:22.149
um often with the best intentions.
00:33:22.159 --> 00:33:23.590
>> And I'm going to preface this because
00:33:23.600 --> 00:33:25.909
there was um a quote you used um a few
00:33:25.919 --> 00:33:28.470
weeks, well several weeks ago now um
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:29.830
with this in mind and it was something
00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:31.750
to the effect of talking about employer
00:33:31.760 --> 00:33:33.029
responsibility or employee
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:34.789
responsibility. And it was something to
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:37.190
the effect of um and sorry specifically
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.350
when it came to um the mental health of
00:33:39.360 --> 00:33:41.350
younger employees. And it was something
00:33:41.360 --> 00:33:43.909
to the effect of, you know, you may well
00:33:43.919 --> 00:33:46.070
have or you probably will have people in
00:33:46.080 --> 00:33:47.509
your workforce that are experiencing
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:49.990
mental health challenges. And in in many
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:51.750
cases, this may well be through, you
00:33:51.760 --> 00:33:53.509
know, no fault of their own.
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:55.350
>> Um, however,
00:33:55.360 --> 00:33:57.509
>> they still have a responsibility to take
00:33:57.519 --> 00:33:59.590
um steps that are going to steps or
00:33:59.600 --> 00:34:01.750
actions that are going to help.
00:34:01.760 --> 00:34:04.310
>> So, with that in mind, what would you
00:34:04.320 --> 00:34:07.750
say are some of the I guess dangers and
00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:09.750
unintended consequences that come with
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:11.270
unspec
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.790
unspec unchecked expectations around
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:16.230
leadership and mental health?
00:34:16.240 --> 00:34:18.149
>> Oh, such a big question, Matt. And I
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:19.750
think, you know, it's great that we can
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.230
get into it because I think um I was
00:34:22.240 --> 00:34:25.430
thinking about this like what is
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:29.430
because as a public health organization
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.829
there are the big gains that you can
00:34:31.839 --> 00:34:34.389
make in in in population mental health
00:34:34.399 --> 00:34:36.629
are about changing the environments and
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.510
experiences. It's not about kind of
00:34:39.520 --> 00:34:41.750
equipping individuals to do to do
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:44.790
mindfulness and um and and change their
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:47.270
behavior. If you want a big population,
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:49.990
if you imagine, right, which of these
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:52.470
two is is more is is is more sensible?
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:54.069
If you're living next to a volcano and
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:57.190
it's erupting a lot, you can take two
00:34:57.200 --> 00:34:59.349
options. You can learn to dance and
00:34:59.359 --> 00:35:01.670
avoid the lava or you can move further
00:35:01.680 --> 00:35:03.829
away from the volcano.
00:35:03.839 --> 00:35:06.710
Now, in terms of mental health, moving
00:35:06.720 --> 00:35:08.550
away from changing your behavior,
00:35:08.560 --> 00:35:09.750
changing your choices.
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:11.430
>> Yeah, sure. Even if you don't think
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:13.589
differently or do have any more insight
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.829
in your mental health, just moving away
00:35:15.839 --> 00:35:17.670
from toxins or things that are damaging
00:35:17.680 --> 00:35:19.030
your mental health will have a really
00:35:19.040 --> 00:35:20.390
big. So changing the environment,
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:22.550
changing the experience, I think that
00:35:22.560 --> 00:35:24.390
those are societal issues, but
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:26.470
individuals have a role too.
00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:29.750
>> Individuals can miss in two ways in
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:32.069
terms of mental health. The first is
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:34.150
that they can choose to say to dismiss,
00:35:34.160 --> 00:35:38.069
ignore or uh suppress mental health
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:39.589
struggles. Mhm.
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.270
>> Yeah. You can try and hide it. You can
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.109
try and push it down. You can say you
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:44.630
can try to diminish it. That's one
00:35:44.640 --> 00:35:47.109
approach. It's a strategy. Good luck.
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:49.510
It, you know, it's not it's not got a
00:35:49.520 --> 00:35:51.109
good track record of leading to healthy
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:51.670
outcomes.
00:35:51.680 --> 00:35:52.310
>> Sure.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.950
>> The other way you can miss is you can be
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:56.630
really interested and engaged in your
00:35:56.640 --> 00:35:58.150
mental health.
00:35:58.160 --> 00:36:00.390
>> Prioritize it.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:04.390
But the coping behaviors that you choose
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:07.410
actually create more harm than good. So
00:36:07.420 --> 00:36:08.390
[clears throat] just because you're more
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:09.829
open about mental health, it doesn't
00:36:09.839 --> 00:36:11.990
necessarily guarantee that the coping
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:14.550
mechanisms that you use will be healthy.
00:36:14.560 --> 00:36:16.550
So I think that's where individuals do
00:36:16.560 --> 00:36:19.910
have a responsibility to understand like
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:21.670
when I'm struggling with my mental
00:36:21.680 --> 00:36:23.510
health, how can I manage this in a way
00:36:23.520 --> 00:36:25.829
that doesn't cause me more harm or cause
00:36:25.839 --> 00:36:27.349
other people harm?
00:36:27.359 --> 00:36:27.670
>> Yeah.
00:36:27.680 --> 00:36:29.270
>> How can I manage that in a healthy way?
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:31.990
And there are some very common unhealthy
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:33.430
responses and we've picked this up in
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:35.190
the data at last mental health awareness
00:36:35.200 --> 00:36:37.750
week which are normal. You don't have to
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.150
be ashamed of them. Most of us do it.
00:36:40.160 --> 00:36:41.109
But I think that's where the
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:43.589
responsibility lies in in when the
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.630
struggle comes managing that in a way
00:36:46.640 --> 00:36:49.030
that's that's as healthy as possible.
00:36:49.040 --> 00:36:50.470
>> That's really interesting. Firstly, the
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:52.390
volcano analogy.
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.589
Great. That's gold. Um, but also, um, I
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:57.910
guess what I take from what you've just
00:36:57.920 --> 00:36:59.670
said there is, you know, being more open
00:36:59.680 --> 00:37:01.349
about your mental health, while in
00:37:01.359 --> 00:37:03.349
theory it's it's, uh, a good place to
00:37:03.359 --> 00:37:05.109
start from, it's not in and of itself
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.710
synonymous with, um, healthier outcomes.
00:37:08.720 --> 00:37:11.670
>> Um, so with that in mind, I mean, do you
00:37:11.680 --> 00:37:14.550
think we've become uncomfortable talking
00:37:14.560 --> 00:37:16.069
about personal responsibility when
00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:17.270
discussing mental health, especially
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:19.430
when it pertains to the workplace? And,
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:19.750
you know,
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:21.589
>> Yeah. I mean I think the problem is the
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:24.470
problem is that mental struggles can be
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.430
we that kind of personal responsibility
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:28.870
can be weaponized.
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:31.190
>> It can be used to shame people
00:37:31.200 --> 00:37:35.109
>> and so if that message is used to blame
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:37.589
or shame it will never have positive
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:39.670
outcomes. So that's why there is some
00:37:39.680 --> 00:37:42.550
sensitivity. But if we get into to the
00:37:42.560 --> 00:37:44.950
domain of saying that mental health is
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:47.430
only about the political and societal
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.510
issues and has got nothing to do with
00:37:49.520 --> 00:37:50.950
individual choice, you're treating
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:52.870
people like victims. And it's really
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.390
really clear that especially young
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.550
people, it it's important that they're
00:37:56.560 --> 00:37:58.550
empowered, that they know that there are
00:37:58.560 --> 00:38:00.230
things they can do. This was really
00:38:00.240 --> 00:38:02.790
important for my brother. You know, he
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:04.470
ended up concluding there was nothing he
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:06.230
can do and he got he felt trapped and
00:38:06.240 --> 00:38:09.430
hopeless. So there is a role for
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:11.270
responsibility in terms of giving people
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:14.069
agency, giving people hope, but it needs
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:16.230
to be done in a way that doesn't
00:38:16.240 --> 00:38:19.349
gaslight them and say you should be
00:38:19.359 --> 00:38:21.990
thinking and feeling, you know, it's
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:23.829
your fault or you should be you, you
00:38:23.839 --> 00:38:26.550
know, you should feel inadequate because
00:38:26.560 --> 00:38:28.630
you can't cope. So there is some
00:38:28.640 --> 00:38:30.790
sensitivity in it, Matt. But I think um
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:34.150
I think it's possible to be both
00:38:34.160 --> 00:38:35.910
compassionate [clears throat]
00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:37.990
>> and here's the heart for healing, right?
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:40.230
The heart of healing is that involves
00:38:40.240 --> 00:38:42.150
being understood,
00:38:42.160 --> 00:38:44.550
being validated,
00:38:44.560 --> 00:38:47.190
and also going on a courageous journey
00:38:47.200 --> 00:38:49.109
of change
00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:51.190
>> and of exploration and and that that's
00:38:51.200 --> 00:38:53.589
difficult. So, both those things and and
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:55.990
and I know I'm I'm wibbling on, but like
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:58.310
the thing that concerns me is that
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:00.390
sometimes if the response to poor mental
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:01.750
health is always the line of least
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:04.470
resistance, the thing that's easiest,
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:06.390
that doesn't always help. And we need
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:08.150
help to be challenged by someone who
00:39:08.160 --> 00:39:09.990
loves us and is on our side to say,
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:12.950
"Hey, maybe that habit, maybe that
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:15.990
response isn't we need to find a
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:17.829
different way of of reacting." that
00:39:17.839 --> 00:39:21.829
needs to that that dynamic can can be in
00:39:21.839 --> 00:39:22.630
an incredibly powerful
00:39:22.640 --> 00:39:24.710
>> draw a line of some sort.
00:39:24.720 --> 00:39:27.910
>> Yeah. Just we just need that just that
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:29.910
um sensitive
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:31.990
challenge is part of the healing. You
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:34.630
can't, you know, and that's where
00:39:34.640 --> 00:39:36.630
ruinous empathy comes in, where you're
00:39:36.640 --> 00:39:41.030
only focusing on support and sympathy,
00:39:41.040 --> 00:39:43.270
>> but there isn't
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:47.349
there isn't the um trust or the space to
00:39:47.359 --> 00:39:50.390
be able to also talk about um what needs
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:51.430
to change.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:53.270
>> So, support and sympathy, trust and
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:55.670
space, challenge, opportunity. Where do
00:39:55.680 --> 00:39:57.270
you think the responsibility of the
00:39:57.280 --> 00:39:59.270
employer ends and the responsibility of
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.670
the individual begins? I you know I it's
00:40:01.680 --> 00:40:03.990
a really tough question. Um I think when
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:07.190
you talk about our organization I think
00:40:07.200 --> 00:40:08.710
um
00:40:08.720 --> 00:40:11.829
the employer has a responsibility and a
00:40:11.839 --> 00:40:14.390
duty of care to ensure that there they
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.630
are not causing harm.
00:40:16.640 --> 00:40:17.430
>> Yes.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:20.630
>> So um and
00:40:20.640 --> 00:40:22.710
doing everything in their policy and
00:40:22.720 --> 00:40:26.550
their transparency to be fair and open
00:40:26.560 --> 00:40:30.069
and clear. So we often talk about fair
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:33.670
clear expectations what so employees
00:40:33.680 --> 00:40:35.109
have responsibility to say what do I
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:36.150
need from you
00:40:36.160 --> 00:40:39.349
>> what's your job and
00:40:39.359 --> 00:40:42.550
employees have a responsibility to say
00:40:42.560 --> 00:40:45.589
yes I'm taking that deal on no I'm not
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:47.510
>> and then then I think um the
00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:51.190
responsibility is around um o as open
00:40:51.200 --> 00:40:52.790
conversation as you can around the sort
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:55.030
of adult to adult to say when you did
00:40:55.040 --> 00:40:58.390
this it had these consequence ences and
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:00.710
and you can have a really clear honest
00:41:00.720 --> 00:41:03.829
conversation with with staff about um
00:41:03.839 --> 00:41:05.990
what they need and what what an
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:09.270
organization uh requires as well. So
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:11.430
>> high trust and high accountability
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:12.950
cultures comes to mind.
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:13.190
>> Yeah.
00:41:13.200 --> 00:41:14.470
>> A wise man once said.
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:17.190
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's um
00:41:17.200 --> 00:41:18.150
>> it was you by the way.
00:41:18.160 --> 00:41:20.550
>> Yeah. I mean I I think that's where we
00:41:20.560 --> 00:41:21.910
that's where we aim to be
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:25.109
>> right. Um so really clear expectations
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:28.950
um where you have a culture where a
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:30.470
sense of belonging where people care
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:32.069
about each other
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:35.109
>> um but also one where there is where
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:36.870
there is challenge where people will
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:41.270
speak the truth um and where uh people
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:43.910
will know. So you know we've we've just
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:45.430
talked about in our leadership team the
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:48.550
importance of a feedback culture. So, so
00:41:48.560 --> 00:41:52.710
it can't be um you know where where
00:41:52.720 --> 00:41:54.150
we're willing to be able to say, "Hey,
00:41:54.160 --> 00:41:56.630
Matt, when you did that, that didn't
00:41:56.640 --> 00:41:59.030
really work for me." If that can't
00:41:59.040 --> 00:42:01.349
happen in an organization, it's not
00:42:01.359 --> 00:42:02.630
going, you know, it's not going to be a
00:42:02.640 --> 00:42:03.270
healthy one.
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:03.670
>> Sure.
00:42:03.680 --> 00:42:05.109
>> Because it's going to be thought, but
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:06.790
it's just not going to be expressed.
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:08.870
Just on this subject of you know
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:11.030
leadership responsibility or leadership
00:42:11.040 --> 00:42:12.710
expectation and what we would describe
00:42:12.720 --> 00:42:15.510
as a reasonable social contract.
00:42:15.520 --> 00:42:17.829
>> How have you found it navigating that
00:42:17.839 --> 00:42:19.270
kind of balance between the
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:21.750
responsibility of organizations and the
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:23.270
responsibility of leaders in terms of
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:26.550
how they look after their employees?
00:42:26.560 --> 00:42:28.230
>> Yeah. And I think when you work for a
00:42:28.240 --> 00:42:31.190
mental health charity, it is really
00:42:31.200 --> 00:42:34.069
important that you you know you I really
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:37.030
care about my staff. want want them to
00:42:37.040 --> 00:42:40.710
um want them to thrive. But I have I
00:42:40.720 --> 00:42:43.190
think I've been she was 80 for eight
00:42:43.200 --> 00:42:44.150
years and there have been times where
00:42:44.160 --> 00:42:46.470
I've really struggled and I remember
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:49.270
during the pandemic
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:51.670
taking looking back now taking more
00:42:51.680 --> 00:42:53.910
responsibility than I should have done
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:56.470
for trying to contain everyone's
00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:59.670
anxiety, trying to soothe people. I
00:42:59.680 --> 00:43:02.790
remember doing like daily videos, daily
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:05.349
messages and reflections. I even did I
00:43:05.359 --> 00:43:07.270
think I did a sort of like daily
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:09.190
exercise class for for you know if
00:43:09.200 --> 00:43:11.190
people wanted to like and I just got
00:43:11.200 --> 00:43:15.349
exhausted and um
00:43:15.359 --> 00:43:17.829
and I think you know we were talking
00:43:17.839 --> 00:43:20.230
earlier on like I I think my model of
00:43:20.240 --> 00:43:23.349
leadership was um
00:43:23.359 --> 00:43:25.589
take maximal responsibility
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:29.910
>> for for uh for the organization but I
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:31.510
know it's a cliche but probably not in
00:43:31.520 --> 00:43:34.230
as much responsibility for what can I
00:43:34.240 --> 00:43:36.710
sustainably give. I thought I could just
00:43:36.720 --> 00:43:39.349
keep on giving that there was no limit.
00:43:39.359 --> 00:43:42.309
And it turned out that there was a limit
00:43:42.319 --> 00:43:44.870
and I got really tired and I got really
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:47.829
anxious. Um and that stayed with me for
00:43:47.839 --> 00:43:50.950
a long time. Um it took a long time to
00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:53.510
sort of I would say really recover. Um
00:43:53.520 --> 00:43:57.190
and so there is a balance and I and I
00:43:57.200 --> 00:44:01.589
think um I think for me my learning is
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:03.349
is
00:44:03.359 --> 00:44:05.030
setting out fair and realistic
00:44:05.040 --> 00:44:07.349
expectations with with staff but also
00:44:07.359 --> 00:44:09.030
leaning on your team
00:44:09.040 --> 00:44:11.109
>> saying what needs to be done and who can
00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:12.470
do what.
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:15.430
>> Um and
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:18.309
being willing sometimes to say no that
00:44:18.319 --> 00:44:20.710
expectation is too much. I can't do it.
00:44:20.720 --> 00:44:22.470
it's not, you know, and I think over the
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:25.589
long term being tighter of what you can
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:27.270
deliver and then delivering on it rather
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:30.069
than promising too much and getting
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:31.990
burnt out is the wise option.
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:32.390
>> Yeah,
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:34.309
>> because it also provokes because there's
00:44:34.319 --> 00:44:36.630
loads of resources that people have.
00:44:36.640 --> 00:44:40.470
It's not just you. Um and um yeah,
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:42.470
>> I mean setting healthy boundaries,
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:45.030
delegating, you know, um setting
00:44:45.040 --> 00:44:47.030
reasonable expectations with your team,
00:44:47.040 --> 00:44:48.390
leaning on your team, as you put it
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:49.430
that, you know, they're not necessarily
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:51.349
new concepts. What would you say
00:44:51.359 --> 00:44:53.670
prevented you from from doing that back
00:44:53.680 --> 00:44:54.069
then?
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:58.870
>> Yeah. I I think I think growing up my
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:01.109
role models in leadership were the kind
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:02.950
of all singing all dancing kind of rider
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:05.109
the rover's leadership the the hero
00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:09.030
model where the leader takes all and um
00:45:09.040 --> 00:45:10.870
I heard someone talking about actually
00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:12.470
Michelle Obama talking about Barack
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:16.390
Obama saying you know he never
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:18.710
you know he never cracked he was always
00:45:18.720 --> 00:45:21.349
good he was always strong
00:45:21.359 --> 00:45:23.589
and I think that's the model I had that
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:25.589
was the expectation I had and actually
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:27.510
I'd have been better off having a more
00:45:27.520 --> 00:45:30.069
modest view of what I could manage
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:33.270
>> and then really building and then asking
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:34.950
people to come around me and asking for
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:37.510
help and I think that's really good role
00:45:37.520 --> 00:45:39.829
model really good leadership and and and
00:45:39.839 --> 00:45:42.150
also slightly more sustainable one
00:45:42.160 --> 00:45:43.349
>> you mentioned you mentioned about what
00:45:43.359 --> 00:45:44.790
you'd learn and what you do differently
00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:46.630
in terms of setting boundaries um and
00:45:46.640 --> 00:45:48.470
obviously you learned that once you you
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:49.750
know it started to have a pretty big
00:45:49.760 --> 00:45:51.270
effect on you in terms of the anxiety
00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:53.750
and the the burnout do you think there's
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:56.950
a way that um you could have I guess
00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:58.550
learned those lessons without the
00:45:58.560 --> 00:45:59.349
impact.
00:45:59.359 --> 00:46:01.910
>> Yeah, maybe. I think I think it turns
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:03.589
out that
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:05.589
um I I I'm not sure. I think for me,
00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:08.230
Matt, I needed to sort of reach the
00:46:08.240 --> 00:46:10.150
limits. You talked about this in terms
00:46:10.160 --> 00:46:11.430
of running, you know, you reach the
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:13.109
limits and then you learn
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:16.710
>> and and I think I definitely re reached
00:46:16.720 --> 00:46:20.069
those those limits. And um yeah, I think
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:22.150
it just goes to show that everybody in
00:46:22.160 --> 00:46:24.150
an organization
00:46:24.160 --> 00:46:26.630
needs to know where they can get
00:46:26.640 --> 00:46:28.309
support. You know, if you're going to
00:46:28.319 --> 00:46:29.589
talk about mental health and well-being,
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:30.950
it's got to be for everyone and
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:33.030
everyone's got to have that sort of and
00:46:33.040 --> 00:46:36.150
and I think um
00:46:36.160 --> 00:46:38.390
I just learned that like there's you can
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:40.309
do a bit going back to what we were
00:46:40.319 --> 00:46:41.750
saying before, I think I'd have been
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:45.030
able to better leader if I shared that
00:46:45.040 --> 00:46:47.430
load out more effectively. It wouldn't
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:48.630
have diminished me. It would have
00:46:48.640 --> 00:46:50.470
enhanced my leadership and it would also
00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:51.510
brought the leadership and
00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:53.109
responsibility from the rest of the
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:55.109
teams more effectively. They would have
00:46:55.119 --> 00:46:57.270
shared because I think but because I
00:46:57.280 --> 00:46:59.670
stepped in so much actually signaled
00:46:59.680 --> 00:47:01.589
that for some people they could step
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:03.589
back. They could be more passive and
00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:05.750
actually you need you know and and
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:07.990
that's your responsibility as a leader.
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:09.670
your number one responsibility is to get
00:47:09.680 --> 00:47:10.950
the most out of your people and
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:13.030
resources. And if you overextend
00:47:13.040 --> 00:47:14.950
yourself, you actually diminish what you
00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:17.190
can get from the from from the the
00:47:17.200 --> 00:47:18.630
strengths of the group.
00:47:18.640 --> 00:47:20.470
>> So your advice to either your younger
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:22.630
self or um you know, a leader that might
00:47:22.640 --> 00:47:23.750
be watching this thinking, do you know
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:25.910
what I I relate to that and I I would
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:28.069
like to, you know, maybe avoid some of
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:29.349
the uh the ill effects that you
00:47:29.359 --> 00:47:31.510
mentioned. It's about um making sure
00:47:31.520 --> 00:47:33.030
that uh you're practicing what you
00:47:33.040 --> 00:47:35.030
preach in terms of uh you know making
00:47:35.040 --> 00:47:36.710
sure that you've got support in place
00:47:36.720 --> 00:47:38.710
for yourself and and sharing the load.
00:47:38.720 --> 00:47:40.150
>> Yeah. And here's a test like if you're
00:47:40.160 --> 00:47:41.990
if you've never said no,
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:44.550
>> if you've ever said no, I can't do that.
00:47:44.560 --> 00:47:46.550
No, I don't think that's a good idea.
00:47:46.560 --> 00:47:48.790
No, that request isn't something that we
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:50.470
can accommodate right now. If you've
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:52.470
never said no, you're doing too much.
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:53.750
You know, you're not making enough
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:56.230
decisions. And I think for me um saying
00:47:56.240 --> 00:47:58.710
no is really important um because it
00:47:58.720 --> 00:48:00.870
makes your yeses more meaningful and
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:04.150
then yeah I think I think doing doing
00:48:04.160 --> 00:48:07.030
less is but doing it well
00:48:07.040 --> 00:48:08.790
>> and doing it sustainably
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:10.870
>> I think is wisdom.
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:13.910
>> Excellent. Thank you. I'd like to talk
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:17.750
about AI specifically how AI can um help
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:20.710
or improve how people access um mental
00:48:20.720 --> 00:48:23.510
health support and um you've previously
00:48:23.520 --> 00:48:25.750
mentioned you know how that AI can help
00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:28.470
to enhance human experience rather than
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:29.190
replace it.
00:48:29.200 --> 00:48:29.430
>> Yeah.
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:31.030
>> Um specifically I know you mentioned
00:48:31.040 --> 00:48:33.270
around um things like conflict
00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:35.510
resolution and uh social processing.
00:48:35.520 --> 00:48:36.710
>> Yeah. [gasps]
00:48:36.720 --> 00:48:38.710
Which aspects of mental health support
00:48:38.720 --> 00:48:40.549
do you think are most likely to benefit
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:43.510
from AI going forward?
00:48:43.520 --> 00:48:45.190
>> Yeah, so great great question. It's
00:48:45.200 --> 00:48:46.390
another area that we're going to be
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:48.309
taking on in in in terms of the future
00:48:48.319 --> 00:48:49.670
of our work. It's going to be a big
00:48:49.680 --> 00:48:51.430
focus in terms of the use of technology
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:54.150
and especially AI. First thing I'd say
00:48:54.160 --> 00:48:55.829
is we've got to learn the lesson the
00:48:55.839 --> 00:48:58.390
last 20 years that unregulated
00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:00.470
technology just unleashed especially on
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:04.248
young people is not ethical or healthy
00:49:04.258 --> 00:49:05.270
[clears throat] because there's a
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:08.950
commercial driver behind that product
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:10.470
and it doesn't necessarily have the
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:13.990
well-being of the consumer at its as its
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:17.750
first purpose. So so make sure that the
00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:19.670
products are safe and and and the advice
00:49:19.680 --> 00:49:21.750
is properly regulated.
00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:23.270
Um, so I think that's going to be really
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:26.950
important going going forward. But as I
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:29.589
you know, as I said, it's the fastest
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:31.750
it's the technology that has been more
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:33.430
quickly adopted than any other in human
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:36.870
history. 1.5 billion people using AI
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:40.710
tools since its launch in 2022.
00:49:40.720 --> 00:49:43.190
>> Well, yeah, absolutely. I think um I was
00:49:43.200 --> 00:49:44.790
doing some research last year for I
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:46.390
think it was loneliness awareness week
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:48.870
and um doing the stats on loneliness but
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:50.630
then also you know how connected we are
00:49:50.640 --> 00:49:52.630
and the AI usage figures for just for
00:49:52.640 --> 00:49:54.870
chat GPT it was 16 minutes a day on
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:56.150
average
00:49:56.160 --> 00:49:58.870
>> um but also the actual user base had
00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:01.030
grown from I think it was 500 million to
00:50:01.040 --> 00:50:02.790
700 million
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:05.829
>> between March and August of last year
00:50:05.839 --> 00:50:07.190
>> it's
00:50:07.200 --> 00:50:08.630
>> and and serious growth
00:50:08.640 --> 00:50:10.549
>> and I was also looking at the what
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:14.549
people are doing on AI and in 2025
00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:15.589
>> the top use
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:16.630
>> right
00:50:16.640 --> 00:50:19.510
>> is uh therapeutic and psychological
00:50:19.520 --> 00:50:22.069
support. It was number it was number two
00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:24.069
in 2024 so it's always been there but
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:25.190
it's gone to the top.
00:50:25.200 --> 00:50:25.589
>> Wow.
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:28.950
>> So people are using and the the second
00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:31.270
is like life organization
00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:32.230
>> and [clears throat] the third most
00:50:32.240 --> 00:50:35.510
popular use is exploring your purpose
00:50:35.520 --> 00:50:37.910
like finding meaning.
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:41.589
So what I take from that is that AI is
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:45.910
helping us solve problems that are
00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:47.589
difficult for us to think through on our
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:50.790
own. It'd be great to find friends who
00:50:50.800 --> 00:50:52.950
who could do that for us, but human
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:55.349
beings are not very good at navigating
00:50:55.359 --> 00:50:58.069
the maze of their own minds. We we find
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:00.230
it really difficult to gain insight on
00:51:00.240 --> 00:51:02.069
our own behavior.
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:06.549
Um and I think AI has a really important
00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:08.390
role in pro in psychological problem
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:10.870
solving if you can equip people to use
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:13.190
it in the right way. Um and especially
00:51:13.200 --> 00:51:14.630
for
00:51:14.640 --> 00:51:17.430
>> especially for men who you know are
00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:21.030
struggling with having deep human colle
00:51:21.040 --> 00:51:23.349
uh connection and friendship. Yeah. Um
00:51:23.359 --> 00:51:27.030
and so those are those are um I think
00:51:27.040 --> 00:51:30.150
it's got potential there in if if if the
00:51:30.160 --> 00:51:31.910
information is accurate and informed.
00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:33.829
The other thing that I think has got a
00:51:33.839 --> 00:51:36.470
really big role in mental health support
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:39.430
is in big data sets to be able to
00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:41.030
identify
00:51:41.040 --> 00:51:44.710
um to be able to help us triage and
00:51:44.720 --> 00:51:47.270
identify where risk is in the
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:49.510
population. um where there might be
00:51:49.520 --> 00:51:51.670
groups of individuals or families or
00:51:51.680 --> 00:51:54.230
communities who need additional support
00:51:54.240 --> 00:51:57.190
and and and as we've done with you know
00:51:57.200 --> 00:51:59.190
other areas of public health targeting
00:51:59.200 --> 00:52:01.030
support in the right areas. So that
00:52:01.040 --> 00:52:02.390
might be families who have a history of
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:05.030
poor mental health in in areas of of
00:52:05.040 --> 00:52:07.030
great social deprivation. But I also
00:52:07.040 --> 00:52:09.510
think in that kind of diagnostic phase,
00:52:09.520 --> 00:52:11.750
do you remember the family doctor used
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:13.510
they used to know the family? They used
00:52:13.520 --> 00:52:15.270
to know they used to get a good
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:17.349
understanding of the different context
00:52:17.359 --> 00:52:18.790
that people were living in and get an
00:52:18.800 --> 00:52:21.190
overall picture of health.
00:52:21.200 --> 00:52:24.549
I think AI is going to be able to help
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:26.790
clinicians who have only got 10 minutes
00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:29.589
have a much richer picture of their
00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:31.670
overall health needs including mental
00:52:31.680 --> 00:52:34.230
health. And I think um because an
00:52:34.240 --> 00:52:36.309
individual can engage at a lot more
00:52:36.319 --> 00:52:38.470
detail in and so there were some risks
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:41.430
around knowledge manage um of privacy
00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:44.390
and ensuring that that information is is
00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:47.750
um held confidential confidentially.
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:51.270
But um we have a massive resource
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:53.670
scarcity in terms of clin clinical time
00:52:53.680 --> 00:52:57.190
to really understand human beings and if
00:52:57.200 --> 00:52:59.349
AI can assist
00:52:59.359 --> 00:53:01.030
clinicians to be able to have a richer
00:53:01.040 --> 00:53:02.390
picture of what's going on in people's
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:04.470
lives, I think that could be an area of
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:05.670
of real potential.
00:53:05.680 --> 00:53:09.270
>> I find that prospect equally
00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:11.190
unsettling and exciting
00:53:11.200 --> 00:53:12.549
>> just when you think about this the the
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:15.109
the sheer range and scope
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:17.829
>> Yeah. um an impact of something like a
00:53:17.839 --> 00:53:19.750
custom GPT for a family.
00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:20.549
>> Yeah.
00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:22.309
>> So that the doctor can get just a
00:53:22.319 --> 00:53:24.309
clearer picture as to who's at risk and
00:53:24.319 --> 00:53:25.190
who needs what.
00:53:25.200 --> 00:53:25.510
>> Yeah.
00:53:25.520 --> 00:53:27.829
>> Because their time is uh you know and
00:53:27.839 --> 00:53:29.190
availability is only going in one
00:53:29.200 --> 00:53:30.230
direction. I mean that sounds like a
00:53:30.240 --> 00:53:30.870
great idea.
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:31.190
>> Yeah.
00:53:32.640 --> 00:53:35.030
>> I I was just going to say I mean and you
00:53:35.040 --> 00:53:36.630
also mentioned as well you know in terms
00:53:36.640 --> 00:53:38.150
of you know populations that are at
00:53:38.160 --> 00:53:40.069
risk. So we know that you know men are
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:41.589
three times more likely to die by
00:53:41.599 --> 00:53:43.990
suicide. So for example or to your point
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:46.069
about um men that are struggling to have
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:47.349
kind of you know person- centered
00:53:47.359 --> 00:53:49.190
empathetic conversations um I think
00:53:49.200 --> 00:53:50.950
there is a skew towards the male
00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:53.190
population in terms of those use cases
00:53:53.200 --> 00:53:56.069
that you mentioned about um AI um in
00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:57.589
terms of you know making sense of their
00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:00.470
life finding um purpose and um you know
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:03.349
kind of solving therapeutic problems
00:54:03.359 --> 00:54:05.349
thinking about how AI is used in the
00:54:05.359 --> 00:54:07.430
workplace
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:08.710
what what do you think because I mean
00:54:08.720 --> 00:54:10.230
it's it's kind of everywhere now even if
00:54:10.240 --> 00:54:11.990
you even if you realize it even if
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:13.750
weren't really fussed about it, emails
00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:15.270
and and and the rest of it.
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:18.390
>> Um, teams calls etc. What would concern
00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:20.790
you most um if organizations became
00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:23.670
overly reliant on AI for well-being
00:54:23.680 --> 00:54:24.630
support?
00:54:24.640 --> 00:54:26.069
>> I just try and come back to first
00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:33.030
principles and I think the I the that
00:54:33.040 --> 00:54:37.589
here's my basic analysis is like it AI
00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:40.710
should be able to save us time. It
00:54:40.720 --> 00:54:42.790
should enable us to be able to spend
00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:44.950
time doing the things that human beings
00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:46.870
can add value doing. And part of that is
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:49.750
around collaboration, connection, social
00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:53.270
interaction. So I think I think if AI
00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:57.829
can be used to increase engagement in
00:54:57.839 --> 00:55:00.309
in-person participation in the
00:55:00.319 --> 00:55:03.829
workplace, that's really great. Um and
00:55:03.839 --> 00:55:06.150
and in including
00:55:06.160 --> 00:55:08.710
um social events or well-being events.
00:55:08.720 --> 00:55:10.790
So I think it could play a role there. I
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:14.390
think if it's used to replace human
00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:17.030
engagement, we got a problem.
00:55:17.040 --> 00:55:20.790
>> It's it's got to serve humanity, not
00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:23.910
replace h, you know, things that that
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:25.910
are best done through through and with
00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:28.309
people. The current people who are
00:55:28.319 --> 00:55:31.109
accessing mental health services
00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:34.790
is is scary. It's scary how many people
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:36.549
are facing need. If you look at the
00:55:36.559 --> 00:55:39.270
people who are most likely to access
00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:41.910
mental health services, it's white
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:45.510
middle class women and especially within
00:55:45.520 --> 00:55:46.870
talking therapies as well.
00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:47.510
>> Right.
00:55:47.520 --> 00:55:48.470
>> So
00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:50.390
>> I know it's it's skewed. It's almost the
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:51.030
other way around.
00:55:51.040 --> 00:55:51.510
>> Exactly.
00:55:51.520 --> 00:55:53.670
>> In terms of it's like twothirds
00:55:53.680 --> 00:55:54.230
>> Yeah.
00:55:54.240 --> 00:55:55.190
>> It's women
00:55:55.200 --> 00:55:56.789
>> two Yeah. It's something like twothirds
00:55:56.799 --> 00:55:59.670
willing women using and using talking
00:55:59.680 --> 00:56:02.230
therapies and then it's about the same
00:56:02.240 --> 00:56:05.510
in terms of a AI use. And so I think I
00:56:05.520 --> 00:56:08.630
do have a passion to
00:56:08.640 --> 00:56:10.950
um equip if men are going to be using
00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:11.510
AI.
00:56:11.520 --> 00:56:12.309
>> Mhm.
00:56:12.319 --> 00:56:14.390
>> There are some really important tools to
00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:16.069
be able to get the most out of it to
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:17.750
ensure that the information is accurate
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:19.349
and to get some insight.
00:56:19.359 --> 00:56:21.670
>> Um and I and I think part of our work
00:56:21.680 --> 00:56:24.870
going forward is going to be about um
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:26.710
this is really important tool. If you're
00:56:26.720 --> 00:56:28.549
going to use it, some people saying
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:30.870
don't use it. That's a bit like telling
00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:33.349
kids back in the 80s, don't have sex
00:56:33.359 --> 00:56:35.750
because there's a risk of HIV.
00:56:35.760 --> 00:56:36.710
>> Sure,
00:56:36.720 --> 00:56:39.109
>> that doesn't work. You kids are going to
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:40.950
have sex. What you got to do is have sex
00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:43.510
safely. People are going to use AI. How
00:56:43.520 --> 00:56:45.109
can you use it effectively? How can you
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:47.430
use it to to to especially when it comes
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:48.789
to your mental health that that avoids
00:56:48.799 --> 00:56:50.789
the risks and and protects yourself but
00:56:50.799 --> 00:56:51.910
gets the most out of it?
00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:54.950
>> Yeah. Sure. And this was what I'd um
00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:57.430
Yeah. almost slipp my mind a moment ago
00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:59.510
in terms of your strategy. you launched
00:56:59.520 --> 00:57:01.109
it two two weeks ago. I know that it
00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:03.109
kind of focuses on um there's three
00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:06.230
segments I believe working lives um
00:57:06.240 --> 00:57:09.030
bullying and also online lives. I just
00:57:09.040 --> 00:57:10.870
wondered how this this kind of segment
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:12.870
we've been speaking about AI shows up in
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:15.430
the online lives part of your policy.
00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:17.750
>> Yeah, it's you're right, you know, um
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:19.910
it's going to be
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:21.910
yeah, effectively we want we want
00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:24.069
especially young people to be equipped
00:57:24.079 --> 00:57:26.470
with the tools and know the risks, know
00:57:26.480 --> 00:57:29.109
the dangers. So I think in relation to I
00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:30.710
it was just what I was saying before is
00:57:30.720 --> 00:57:33.430
it's it's making sure that the AI
00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:35.109
products especially when they are
00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:37.109
dealing with um issues around
00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:39.270
psychological advice and mental health
00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:40.390
support
00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:42.150
>> making sure that those are properly
00:57:42.160 --> 00:57:44.950
regulated and that are safe um and that
00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:46.549
there is protection around your
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:49.990
information and your privacy um and then
00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:52.069
it could be that we'll be involved in
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:55.589
helping organizations develop uh
00:57:55.599 --> 00:57:58.309
effective AI tools It could be that we
00:57:58.319 --> 00:58:01.349
are giving parental advice. It could be
00:58:01.359 --> 00:58:02.789
that we're doing, you know, we're going
00:58:02.799 --> 00:58:05.829
to be doing some research on how young
00:58:05.839 --> 00:58:09.190
people are using chat bots um and using
00:58:09.200 --> 00:58:10.789
that sort of lived experience to help
00:58:10.799 --> 00:58:15.349
inform both um materials, advice, but
00:58:15.359 --> 00:58:17.589
also policy makers about where the
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:20.150
dangers are and where the risks are. Um
00:58:20.160 --> 00:58:21.990
we're just really passionate. You asked
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:23.670
me like what what did we get wrong in
00:58:23.680 --> 00:58:25.670
the last 10 years? like as a mental
00:58:25.680 --> 00:58:27.670
health sector, we have been nowhere near
00:58:27.680 --> 00:58:29.430
on the wall enough about the role of
00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:31.349
technology and young people's mental
00:58:31.359 --> 00:58:33.109
health and neuro development and
00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:35.190
psychological development and um we're
00:58:35.200 --> 00:58:36.710
just determined to make sure that we
00:58:36.720 --> 00:58:39.109
don't make the same mistakes with AI,
00:58:39.119 --> 00:58:41.270
harness the good bits but protect her
00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:43.430
from from any potential harms.
00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:47.589
>> Nice. and um well future focus you know
00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:49.430
10 years at the helm of the the mental
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:50.789
health foundation you've you've
00:58:50.799 --> 00:58:53.030
witnessed progress setbacks significant
00:58:53.040 --> 00:58:54.630
social change that we've we've been
00:58:54.640 --> 00:58:56.470
speaking about just now how would you
00:58:56.480 --> 00:58:58.390
describe your outlook about the future
00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:01.030
of mental health more broadly speaking
00:59:01.040 --> 00:59:03.750
>> I'm instinctively
00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:06.549
>> I'm like a short-term pessimist
00:59:06.559 --> 00:59:09.109
and a long-term optimist so I think
00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:10.950
there are going some be I think we're
00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:12.789
going to face the next few years some
00:59:12.799 --> 00:59:15.109
real continues and sustained push back
00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:16.470
on the on the mental health and
00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:18.230
wellbeing agenda. People are going to
00:59:18.240 --> 00:59:19.990
dismiss it. People are going to say
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:22.549
we've had too much. They want to kind of
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:24.870
return back to a kind of stiff upper
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:27.109
lip. And and I think that's you you can
00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:28.309
see that in lots of different ways.
00:59:28.319 --> 00:59:30.390
There's a cultural swing that's going to
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:31.990
come the other way. So I think it's
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:33.430
going to be a tough few years.
00:59:33.440 --> 00:59:38.230
>> Mh. Um, but I think longer term we're
00:59:38.240 --> 00:59:41.589
going to prove that prioritizing and
00:59:41.599 --> 00:59:43.829
exploring and valuing and protecting
00:59:43.839 --> 00:59:48.230
mental health is um
00:59:48.240 --> 00:59:49.829
absolutely essential for human
00:59:49.839 --> 00:59:50.950
flourishing. We're going to look back
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:52.789
and go, "Yeah, the people who are on the
00:59:52.799 --> 00:59:54.950
right side of that debate were right. It
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:56.710
was it's the core of everything that we
00:59:56.720 --> 01:00:01.510
need in terms of um creating a society
01:00:01.520 --> 01:00:04.549
that we want to live in." Um so um I'm
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:07.030
I'm optimistic. This week I was with my
01:00:07.040 --> 01:00:08.630
leadership team and we were at the
01:00:08.640 --> 01:00:09.990
People's History Museum
01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:10.470
>> right
01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:13.510
>> in Manchester. And um one of the things
01:00:13.520 --> 01:00:15.990
it reminded me Matt was that um social
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:17.990
change. It like charted everything from
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:20.230
the civil English civil war right
01:00:20.240 --> 01:00:22.390
through to the sort of universal
01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:25.190
suffrage and and the the Second World
01:00:25.200 --> 01:00:28.309
War and um all of the different trade
01:00:28.319 --> 01:00:29.750
unions and political parties that were
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:31.750
established. and it just reminded me
01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:34.309
that change over long term does happen
01:00:34.319 --> 01:00:35.910
and you just need to be able to play
01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:37.670
your part and pass the bat on to the
01:00:37.680 --> 01:00:42.870
next people. Um, and um, I think uh, I'm
01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:44.630
really excited and proud at the work
01:00:44.640 --> 01:00:46.390
that I've done at the foundation, the
01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:48.309
team has done, and I'm really looking
01:00:48.319 --> 01:00:51.109
forward to seeing, you know, how they
01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:53.750
build on that um, and and continue to
01:00:53.760 --> 01:00:57.349
take the fight to uh, uh, ensure that
01:00:57.359 --> 01:00:59.589
um, people's mental health is protected
01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:00.870
and supported.
01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:03.589
>> Well said. So, you know, a lot of the
01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:05.270
conversation around workplace mental
01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:06.950
health support is understandably focused
01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:09.109
on today's challenges, but you know,
01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:11.030
human beings um over the course of time
01:01:11.040 --> 01:01:12.710
haven't changed nearly as quickly as the
01:01:12.720 --> 01:01:15.190
the technology or the workplaces or
01:01:15.200 --> 01:01:16.309
society.
01:01:16.319 --> 01:01:17.829
>> So, what would you say are some of the
01:01:17.839 --> 01:01:19.190
guiding principles about mental health
01:01:19.200 --> 01:01:20.630
in the workplace that you believe will
01:01:20.640 --> 01:01:22.470
still be relevant in I don't know 100
01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:23.910
years time?
01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:26.789
>> Yeah. Have you um
01:01:26.799 --> 01:01:28.309
have you come have you read Victor
01:01:28.319 --> 01:01:31.349
Frankle's Man's Search for Meaning? I've
01:01:31.359 --> 01:01:33.990
heard of Victor Frankl um but no I
01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:34.950
haven't read that.
01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:37.910
>> He's um he was a Jewish psychiatrist who
01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:40.069
was put in the um in the concentration
01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:41.910
camps by the Nazis
01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:43.829
>> and he was a psychiatrist and he
01:01:43.839 --> 01:01:47.190
observed who survived and who didn't and
01:01:47.200 --> 01:01:50.789
um he found that th those that had a
01:01:50.799 --> 01:01:53.910
personal sense of of meaning
01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:56.549
>> uh and purpose in their lives were able
01:01:56.559 --> 01:01:58.950
to endure suffering. He had this great
01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:00.950
quote that said you can you can survive
01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:03.589
any what if you've got a big enough why.
01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:04.470
>> Right?
01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:06.870
>> So I think moving forward in a 100 years
01:02:06.880 --> 01:02:08.390
the big challenge for employees that
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:11.510
they're going to is creating
01:02:11.520 --> 01:02:14.390
meaningful engagement in purposeful
01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:17.030
work. I think AI is going to cause some
01:02:17.040 --> 01:02:19.428
real big disruption in that space
01:02:19.438 --> 01:02:19.670
[clears throat]
01:02:19.680 --> 01:02:22.309
>> but we need it as human beings. It can't
01:02:22.319 --> 01:02:25.109
be artificial. So I I don't think that's
01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:27.109
going to change and I think workplace is
01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:29.589
going to have to think really hard about
01:02:29.599 --> 01:02:31.670
how do you what does t what does
01:02:31.680 --> 01:02:33.670
delegation mean? What is the task that
01:02:33.680 --> 01:02:35.510
needs to be done? What's what does work
01:02:35.520 --> 01:02:37.109
actually mean? And I think it's going to
01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:38.630
change. But the thing they've got to
01:02:38.640 --> 01:02:41.109
focus on and we focus on is it's got to
01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:43.990
feel meaningful. It's got to feel like
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:47.430
it matters. And that is so important for
01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:49.750
mental health.
01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:52.150
And finally, after everything that
01:02:52.160 --> 01:02:53.589
you've contributed through your work at
01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:55.589
the Mental Health Foundation, if future
01:02:55.599 --> 01:02:57.670
generations only remembered one lesson
01:02:57.680 --> 01:02:59.270
from your work, what would you hope that
01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:03.430
that was?
01:03:03.440 --> 01:03:06.470
W um
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:08.630
the one message I suppose for me would
01:03:08.640 --> 01:03:10.789
be
01:03:10.799 --> 01:03:15.029
that it's so easy to
01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:18.150
be self-critical and shame plays such a
01:03:18.160 --> 01:03:22.309
big role in mental health and what
01:03:22.319 --> 01:03:24.630
so my big message would be that whatever
01:03:24.640 --> 01:03:27.270
you're experiencing
01:03:27.280 --> 01:03:29.910
it's much more common than you think the
01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:33.270
problem isn't you. The problem is likely
01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:35.589
to be what you've experienced or what's
01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:38.069
happened to you. The problem isn't you
01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:41.910
and there is a way to um prevent that
01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:44.870
problem escalating and live living well.
01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:48.870
So I'm really passionate about
01:03:48.880 --> 01:03:50.470
preventing
01:03:50.480 --> 01:03:52.710
people feeling ashamed of their own
01:03:52.720 --> 01:03:54.710
distress.
01:03:54.720 --> 01:03:56.789
>> Like you know that it's hard enough
01:03:56.799 --> 01:03:58.150
dealing with the distress. You don't
01:03:58.160 --> 01:04:01.510
need the guilt and shame on top. And um
01:04:01.520 --> 01:04:03.589
yeah, just just that simple message of
01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:04.950
you're not alone.
01:04:04.960 --> 01:04:07.029
>> Brilliant. Mark, it's been an absolute
01:04:07.039 --> 01:04:08.710
pleasure. Thanks for joining the show.
01:04:08.720 --> 01:04:09.349
>> Thank you.
01:04:09.359 --> 01:04:11.510
>> Cheers.
01:04:11.520 --> 01:04:13.349
This has been Wellbe Talk with myself,
01:04:13.359 --> 01:04:15.589
Matt Balffor, your guide to all things
01:04:15.599 --> 01:04:17.670
mental health in the workplace. Be sure
01:04:17.680 --> 01:04:19.190
to subscribe to the Let's Go Wellbeing
01:04:19.200 --> 01:04:20.549
YouTube channel, and we'll connect on
01:04:20.559 --> 01:04:23.960
the next episode.