Taking on Conversations About Opening A Relationship

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It can be scary to open the conversation about consensual non-monogamy,
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don't you think, Martha?
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Absolutely. It's a terrifying topic for lots of people. But what we'd like to
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do today is provide some support for making that process easier.
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All right. So where should we start? Where should we start? And I guess that
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our conversation kind of mirrors what happens with couples.
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What do you find yourself telling people when they ask where should they start?
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Well, I think if they already have started, if they've gotten to that question,
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you know, making a decision that we're going to talk about this topic is a great starting place.
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Because if you're not talking about it, then you're not on the same page.
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You don't have a chance to learn about something together.
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And lots of couples do open up from very different places within each of them.
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In this conversation, I think we're just going to be talking about couples who
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are talking about opening up, which is not the only way to do this.
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But I mean, we can talk about individuals, too. But if you're trying to build
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a flourishing, open relationship of some kind, I think it's really helpful to
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think about what goes into that.
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What even goes into making a CNM relationship that works and how would you begin?
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So to me, you would begin with the conversation, opening the topic.
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This is something I'm curious about. I'm interested in talking with you about it.
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Would you be willing to have some conversations about it from kind of a curious,
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exploratory standpoint rather than a decision-making place?
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Hmm. Okay. Okay. So I'm hearing you kind of in that Martha way say you're already doing something.
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I guess I would use that to say it doesn't have to feel quite so scary because
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this conversation that you're interested in having and even bringing it to the
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table as a conversation that I'm interested in having with you is a step.
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And it's a great first step because it involves at least some level of differentiation.
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Does that feel like a fair statement? Totally.
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Where would you go from there, Skye? When I hear that, there's a boatload of
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curiosity that opens up inside of me.
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Whenever I'm in front of a person or a couple that is saying we want to open
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up our marriage, I can just feel this kind of like, tell me more.
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What do you know already? And usually it's different per person,
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even if I am looking at a couple.
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What they know is different. Usually someone has had a little bit more interaction.
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Either they know somebody who is, I rarely see anybody who's coming from a point
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of interest who doesn't at least know someone. So a boatload of curiosity and
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really just trying to sit with that.
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The conversation tends to want to go so fast because there's like nervous energy in the room.
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And for me as the clinician.
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I can sometimes get caught up in that nervous energy and go faster than I want
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to. But really slowing things down, like right off the bat, and modeling curiosity is my starting point.
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Very curious to ask you a follow-up question. Are you here for it?
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Yep, totally here for it. So when you say you have rarely worked with somebody
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who wants to open their relationship that doesn't know someone,
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are you talking about know somebody who's in an open relationship?
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Or know somebody they want to open the relationship with?
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Oh, yeah. Good question. Know someone who's already in an open relationship.
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See, I think that's interesting because I for sure have worked with a bunch
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of people who have never met anybody who's in an open relationship,
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have never read a single book about open relationships,
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and only watched a TV show or saw something in the media or there was a newspaper
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article or what have you.
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And they're like, you know what? I've thought about this before,
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and now that I know it's really a thing, I want to do it.
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And then I'll try to sort of suss out what resources do you have available for
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yourselves in terms of social supports.
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None. None. Wow. Okay, that's a very different starting place,
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and it kind of is reminding me of myself.
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When I started on my journey, I,
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I didn't know anyone who had a consensually non-monogamous relationship.
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And, you know, I just started trying to get my hands on anything that I could find.
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So what you're saying very much mirrors my own personal experience,
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but is different than my professional experience.
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A lot of clients come to me, they've already read a book or two.
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Like I said, they know someone, at least someone in the relationship has had
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some interfacing with the topic.
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That's so interesting because personally, I think I've always been in open relationships, more or less.
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I didn't label them that way, but it certainly wasn't infidelity.
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We'd always had an open conversation about what was going on.
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But I knew lots of people who were in open relationships.
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So it's interesting. Our personal and our professional experiences are quite opposite.
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Yes, they are. So and I'm trying to think if someone came to me with very little
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information, very little interface, where would I start?
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And I'm thinking, I probably still feel that same level of curiosity.
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What do you already know?
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What do you imagine?
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So that would probably be my starting point. And then I guess if they're like,
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I don't know, I just I saw this, something resonated. You know,
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I saw it on a TV show. I heard something. It resonated inside of me.
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It's kind of hard to imagine where I would exactly go from there in this moment.
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It's always a little bit easier with a client in front of me, I think.
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I like the curiosity angle that you've got there because I can't imagine not
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asking what is it that you saw that lit you up? Like, what's the thing that
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that brought forward in you that's forward enough for you to bring it up here?
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Something must have been intriguing. And I'm curious which aspect felt like
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it was intriguing. Yeah.
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But, you know, I also think that we have a role as educators in a certain kind
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of way. And so I often find myself doing some education about CNM.
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And I can't imagine in that situation not saying, I just want you to know it
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is a thing that people do and it can work really well.
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Because I think that's a missing piece of information just sort of in the larger,
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certainly in the USA culture.
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I think there are a whole lot of people who have never actually seen a non-monogamous
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relationship functioning well over time.
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And so they're not really sure that it can. And then there's a lot of
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monoheteronormativity going on about what a relationship needs to look like,
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what intimacy has to look like in order to be deep intimacy and a good relationship
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and stand the test of time and all that.
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And I just want to kind of come right out of the gate debunking it.
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Like, we don't know if this is the right fit for you and only you'll be able to decide.
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But I just want you to know that it exists in nature in a beautiful,
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healthy form. So there's no reason in the world why you wouldn't think about
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it, talk about it, and figure out whether it seems like something you want to explore or not.
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I think that's wonderful. And it sounds kind of obvious, but isn't that what
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we do when we're supporting people as coaches and therapists?
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Us, we take that thing that maybe is something that someone's never thought
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of, or maybe it's something that someone has thought of, and we just say the
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thing out loud, and we concretize it, and we let it take up space in the room.
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And so I love that that is something you say outright, out front.
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And let it land, you know, hopefully with some hopefulness. And the fact that
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you're adding in there, it may not be a fit for you.
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So it's not a sales pitch. It's informational. And I see those as very different.
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Yeah, for sure. And, you know, when you say, yeah, it's basic information,
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God damn, I hope it's basic information.
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I feel like I've been fighting the good fight for that to be basic information for some decades now.
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And the reason is that I think it's more common, maybe. I hope it isn't still,
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but it certainly used to be more common to find a therapist who was like,
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well, I've certainly never seen it work.
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So, you know, we can talk about it, but I don't know. I've never seen, I don't know.
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Well, that's not a good feeling.
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Or even that it can't work because real intimacy only happens between two people.
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I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What about families?
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That's not real intimacy. What about close friend groups?
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That's not real intimacy. Just like we have to kind of get out of this idea,
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that one man, one woman, one marriage equals intimacy. And this is how we build
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a family. And it has to be according to these rules.
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We really have to get out of it. And to get into this conversation well,
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I think we have to state that we're not there.
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You know, so I, as a person in an open relationship, have gone to therapy for
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help with my open relationship, which is not an uncommon thing to do.
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And definitely asked my therapist, like, I don't care if you're in an open relationship
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or not, but I do want to know, do you believe that this can work?
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Is there any part of you that has a problem with this? Because I need to know and I need to know now.
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Because I am just not interested in going to a therapist who's like, I don't know.
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I mean, I think it might be possible. I hear it might be possible,
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but I've never actually seen it work.
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Like, that's not the therapist that's going to help me through whatever thorny
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relational situation I find myself in. What do you think about that?
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And they're really outing, you know, some serious biases and limitations in
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terms of their ability to handle.
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So this self-advocacy piece that, you know, I'm hearing you very strongly say,
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I am willing to ask this question in a clear way.
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And my expectation is really for a clear answer.
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And I love for people to know that, no matter what the topic is,
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that you can put yourself in the driver's seat.
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And you should when it comes to asking about the person who's going to be providing
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you care when it comes to even the consideration of an open relationship.
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And I do get more and more people asking me explicitly, have you done work in this domain before?
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And what is your comfort level? And I love those questions.
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I think it's great. It tells me already I've got a client who is going to be pretty engaged.
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I agree. I love those questions. I also think if you're a therapist and you
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haven't worked with an open relationship before, that certainly doesn't mean
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that you can't or shouldn't.
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I think that a lot of people are happy for it to be your first one.
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They just don't want a vote of no confidence out of the gate.
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I mean, imagine going to somebody with your monogamous relationship.
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Yeah, right. So I like go into my therapist and I've got my monogamous partner
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next to me and we're going to have couples therapy. And the therapist starts
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out by saying, boy, I don't really believe in monogamy. I'm not sure it can work. Yep. Out the door.
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Speaking of wishes, I want us to laugh just as hard at the idea that a therapist
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would take that mentality when it comes to CNM.
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So I'm here, I'm an individual or a couple, and I want to have this conversation
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with my therapist or with my partner.
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And what you're saying is you've already put one foot on the road by just
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knowing inside of yourself this level of differentiation that I'm interested
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in this, and then being able to bring this conversation to your partner if you're already partnered.
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For a person who is interested in pursuing solo poly,
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there may not necessarily be someone to open that door with.
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Maybe you're not partnered at all in this moment, but you still know that this
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is something that you want.
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And I think that level of curiosity is still very relevant.
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What are you hoping to get out of this? What have you seen or heard or know?
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What are some of the answers that you hear from people when they start talking
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about what they're hoping to get out of a C&M relationship or even an experiment.
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Maybe they're not even sure that they want to go into it.
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I often hear that people are interested in some particular kind of sexual variety or gender variety.
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Like if you identify as pansexual or bisexual, if you're monogamous,
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you have a partner with one gender.
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And so perhaps you've always had same-sex partners your whole entire life and
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you want to have a different experience of gender in a relationship or some
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other kind of sexual adventure.
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Sometimes it's about sexual adventure,
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like I want to explore kink and my partner's not interested in it, or.
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I am single and I want to explore my own eroticism and my sexuality and I'm
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not really interested in pinning myself down in a
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monogamous commitment for a period of time in my life, but I do want to explore my eroticism.
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So some of those kinds of themes come up. How about you? What do you see?
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I hear a lot, and it's so interesting how different our answers are going to be.
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I hear a lot something like I've always felt like I've had the capacity to be
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in a loving romantic relationship with more than one person,
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but I never thought that it was something I could even bring up,
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I didn't feel like I really had a choice.
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Until I started hearing more from this person at work and their experiences,
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or, you know, I watched this show on TV or saw this podcast.
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And so many, if not,
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most, of the clients that I have worked with, they have always had some internal
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sense that they wanted something more than a monogamous relationship.
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And it feels like it's a lot about expansion.
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And as I'm thinking about that, it's very interesting because that was my interest
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in C&M. So I'm kind of thinking, oh, am I putting some vibes out there that
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are drawing clients to me that kind of have a similar interest?
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So that's usually one of the first things that I hear.
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I've always thought this as possible. Always felt like I had this capacity and now is the time.
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Cool. That's a great place to start the conversation from.
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Another thing I see all the time that I suddenly realized we didn't cover is
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here I am in my marriage of 20 or 30 years and I developed a crush on somebody
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else and I want to act on it. That's actually...
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Is that the majority of the cases that I've worked with? It's close.
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That it's really, really a common way. Like we've just stumbled into this opportunity
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and I'm not interested in letting it go by.
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So how do we work with it and how do we make it go for both of us?
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I think people tend to think if it starts that way, then it can't work.
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But in my experience, it can.
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And I have seen it work that way.
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So, yeah, and I think that it requires a lot of work because it can be a little
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bit more threatening potentially to the person hearing. I've already got a crush.
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And can we have this conversation?
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But there are a lot of success stories, I would say, around that.
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And probably some non-success stories as well, as with monogamy, right?
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Yes, as with MinuteLite, every experiment, some people, some experiments are
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going to work and some experiments are not going to work.
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I would even say in my own relationship, that was a hidden part of it for me.
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So that had not yet fully come to the surface that I was interested in.
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And for me, I didn't have necessarily someone else identified,
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but I was interested in exploration.
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And I don't think I could let myself know that.
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So my differentiation wasn't exactly where it needed to be until we got further
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along in the conversations.
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Interesting. Let's go back to those early conversations, whether.
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Let's imagine somebody just wants to explore their eroticism or that feels like
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it's a piece of their identity that they want to investigate or they've stumbled
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onto a crush and they're interested in seeing what's possible.
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We're in a conversation about what lights you up about this idea.
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What is the thing that's intriguing to you about it?
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And I'm curious where you go with that conversation or what comes up typically for you.
00:17:59.513 --> 00:18:03.743
So that's when I might start just a little bit of tracking. I'm getting the
00:18:03.743 --> 00:18:10.368
information, but I'm also wanting to find out what's happening inside of you as you're sharing this.
00:18:10.705 --> 00:18:15.853
Maybe not for the first time necessarily with your partner in a partnered situation,
00:18:15.853 --> 00:18:19.713
but maybe the first time really going quite as deep.
00:18:20.053 --> 00:18:23.543
So what do you notice happening inside of you in this moment?
00:18:23.543 --> 00:18:27.423
What's the emotion and what's happening in your body?
00:18:27.568 --> 00:18:31.399
Because that information is going to tell me something.
00:18:31.788 --> 00:18:36.107
And then I'm gonna ask the partner, what do you notice happening for yourself?
00:18:36.392 --> 00:18:39.153
What are you hearing? And what do you notice happening for yourself?
00:18:39.153 --> 00:18:43.091
Because I really wanna make sure that the information that's being transmitted.
00:18:43.642 --> 00:18:48.495
Actually being heard because so much of what we hear has to do with our own
00:18:48.629 --> 00:18:54.850
intrapsychic lens and definitely some history in the interpersonal relationship.
00:18:55.181 --> 00:19:01.085
So I want to know what exactly did you hear and then what happened inside of
00:19:01.085 --> 00:19:02.298
you as you were listening.
00:19:02.815 --> 00:19:11.023
I could feel myself tensing up. I'm feeling emotional. I'm feeling tearful or I'm getting angry.
00:19:11.429 --> 00:19:14.576
So that's the next place that I would go.
00:19:15.445 --> 00:19:18.575
Any questions about that? How's that sound to you? I'm curious.
00:19:18.575 --> 00:19:24.665
I like it. I mean, it's so mind-body-psyche-relationship congruent.
00:19:24.862 --> 00:19:28.717
That is a lovely frame. I think it's beautiful.
00:19:29.158 --> 00:19:34.265
Yeah. And then I would ask the other person, if I've got two people in the room,
00:19:34.665 --> 00:19:37.320
what do you find interesting about this?
00:19:37.865 --> 00:19:40.865
And I've been told I don't find anything interesting.
00:19:42.005 --> 00:19:47.015
So that sometimes hasn't been the best question that's been one of those therapy
00:19:47.015 --> 00:19:52.505
uh-oh moments like okay okay so you know can we notice that can we be,
00:19:53.065 --> 00:19:57.755
you know with that that nothing feels interesting to you and what does show
00:19:57.755 --> 00:20:01.675
up when you hear me talking to your partner about this conversation and sometimes
00:20:01.675 --> 00:20:05.303
i get a lot of reasons why it feels frightening.
00:20:06.673 --> 00:20:09.193
And upsetting and why,
00:20:10.034 --> 00:20:16.676
probably might not work yeah and then you can feel for me i can feel kind of,
00:20:17.128 --> 00:20:22.770
the hopelessness inside of that person and so there's an invitation to notice
00:20:22.770 --> 00:20:28.630
that and even be curious about what's this hopelessness what's behind it what
00:20:28.630 --> 00:20:30.067
do you think may or may not happen
00:20:30.474 --> 00:20:34.526
and since we're talking to a lot of therapist friends and coach friends out there,
00:20:35.036 --> 00:20:38.746
you know i always want to remind people this is something that you're doing already.
00:20:39.210 --> 00:20:42.750
This is the kind of work that you're doing already. These are the kinds of questions
00:20:42.750 --> 00:20:46.717
that you're asking people to sit with already. It's just maybe a different topic.
00:20:47.784 --> 00:20:51.580
Yeah. There's a piece that I think goes in here somewhere.
00:20:51.980 --> 00:20:56.160
I don't know if I would put it before or after the theme that you're working
00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:58.980
with, but I think people tend to
00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:05.070
kind of move ahead in their minds far and develop feelings based on that.
00:21:05.482 --> 00:21:12.260
And I'm really interested in breaking up some ideas of things that have to go
00:21:12.260 --> 00:21:15.734
together before we get too far down the panic lane.
00:21:16.053 --> 00:21:21.307
And one piece of that is just to clearly state,
00:21:21.777 --> 00:21:26.880
this is let's think about it and learn about it conversation, explore the territory,
00:21:27.260 --> 00:21:30.598
not a decision-making conversation so that people don't feel like,
00:21:30.853 --> 00:21:34.130
oh gosh, if I say that I might be interested in this, then the next thing I
00:21:34.130 --> 00:21:37.600
know you're going to be going on on a date with exactly the one person that
00:21:37.600 --> 00:21:39.038
I don't want you to go on a date with.
00:21:39.346 --> 00:21:43.090
So that's one thing is just, I will always make it very explicit.
00:21:43.090 --> 00:21:50.090
Like let's explore this topic separately from making any decisions about what you're going to do.
00:21:50.090 --> 00:21:55.280
And the decision-making conversation is further down the road and then the other
00:21:55.280 --> 00:22:01.177
thing I want to do is separate some bonds of ideas of what goes together so.
00:22:01.781 --> 00:22:06.955
Sexual adventure, for instance. There's no law of nature that says you can only
00:22:06.955 --> 00:22:09.635
have sexual adventure in an open relationship.
00:22:10.007 --> 00:22:11.673
Reliability, safety.
00:22:12.102 --> 00:22:18.065
Right, exactly. And from the Department of Hope Not, how about reliability,
00:22:18.065 --> 00:22:20.385
dependability, and stability?
00:22:20.805 --> 00:22:24.725
If you have to have monogamy in order to have those things, that's going to
00:22:24.725 --> 00:22:30.105
be problematic. And also, let's just acknowledge that monogamy doesn't follow
00:22:30.105 --> 00:22:33.465
through on any promises about any particular kind of outcome either.
00:22:33.726 --> 00:22:40.065
So I like to just either play with some of these linkages or,
00:22:40.564 --> 00:22:44.535
just do a chunk of education that debunks the idea that all this stuff has to
00:22:44.535 --> 00:22:48.318
go together so that we can be in a conversation about
00:22:48.713 --> 00:22:55.975
what is the experience that you are feeling drawn toward, like your internal
00:22:55.975 --> 00:23:00.145
experience, joy in an early stage relationship.
00:23:00.145 --> 00:23:04.096
What does that include? What does that joy include?
00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:08.625
And what are ways that you could bring some aspects of that into a pre-existing
00:23:08.625 --> 00:23:12.972
relationship rather than just waiting for a new relationship for it?
00:23:13.233 --> 00:23:14.585
You know, just starting to think
00:23:14.585 --> 00:23:19.712
like, okay, what if you could experience anything in any circumstance?
00:23:20.083 --> 00:23:23.985
Just could we play with moving those pieces around a little bit so that we don't
00:23:23.985 --> 00:23:28.994
get too locked into, I want this thing to happen.
00:23:29.214 --> 00:23:33.035
I don't want to talk about what you want to have happen without talking about
00:23:33.035 --> 00:23:35.490
the experience that you think is going to go with it.
00:23:35.623 --> 00:23:41.195
And I want to clearly state you have a fantasy that if you do this activity,
00:23:41.195 --> 00:23:46.442
you will have this felt experience. And that is a hope, not a guarantee.
00:23:47.729 --> 00:23:53.569
Wow, that is so brilliant. Before I even get there, I want to go back to where you started
00:23:53.969 --> 00:24:01.459
with kind of, I'm hearing a reassurance that it's okay to play with the landscape
00:24:01.459 --> 00:24:07.809
of your thoughts and that that's the only thing that we're doing in this conversation
00:24:08.149 --> 00:24:11.098
and really drawing a line between decision making.
00:24:11.551 --> 00:24:18.609
I can imagine that that is very comforting to know because even in counseling
00:24:18.609 --> 00:24:23.799
where there are two people in a monogamous relationship, it can feel like if
00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:25.088
we talk about this thing,
00:24:25.477 --> 00:24:27.630
this person's going to be honest.
00:24:27.857 --> 00:24:32.106
And that clear distinction, I could see how useful that would be.
00:24:32.361 --> 00:24:37.569
It's an interesting one because people can't always do it either or choose not to always do it, right?
00:24:37.569 --> 00:24:42.379
So it's sort of like me saying, could we agree together that we're going to
00:24:42.379 --> 00:24:47.877
separate the thinking about and exploring the topic from the decision-making process?
00:24:48.167 --> 00:24:53.019
But if one partner is 50 miles further along and they're thinking about this
00:24:53.019 --> 00:24:56.689
and it's a brand new topic to the other person, sometimes that
00:24:57.124 --> 00:25:02.489
person who's 50 miles ahead feels a huge amount of internal pressure and motivation
00:25:02.489 --> 00:25:04.926
to go get this train moving.
00:25:05.472 --> 00:25:10.287
But if you want it to move as a relationship, which would stand the test of
00:25:10.287 --> 00:25:14.437
time, there is a certain amount of delayed gratification that has to come into
00:25:14.437 --> 00:25:16.890
this while you wait for your partner to catch up with your train.
00:25:17.401 --> 00:25:24.277
I find that one of my roles is supporting that energy that you're describing,
00:25:24.277 --> 00:25:29.615
supporting the person who's holding that energy that maybe they had been wanting this for a long time
00:25:29.951 --> 00:25:32.427
and they've been wanting to talk about it.
00:25:32.427 --> 00:25:33.947
And like you said, they're 50 miles
00:25:33.947 --> 00:25:39.297
ahead and helping them be true to that internal truth for themselves.
00:25:39.569 --> 00:25:47.011
And also this idea that if you want to build something that has some durability,
00:25:47.243 --> 00:25:49.588
we have to move at a relational pace.
00:25:50.012 --> 00:25:54.057
And you're right, that can be really, really tricky. And I think it takes a
00:25:54.057 --> 00:25:57.158
lot of nuance and relationality.
00:25:57.785 --> 00:26:04.118
To be able to hold the person who is 50 miles ahead without the person who is
00:26:04.420 --> 00:26:09.250
to get their footing in the conversation feeling like there's an allyship.
00:26:09.511 --> 00:26:15.276
So I do find that people are kind of looking to see, wait, are you going to be pushing this thing?
00:26:15.740 --> 00:26:21.219
And I don't have a vote for how your relationship is going to go,
00:26:21.219 --> 00:26:24.769
except for hopefully in a direction of health for both of you.
00:26:24.769 --> 00:26:29.742
But I'm not here to promote that you open your marriage, and I'm not here to promote that you don't.
00:26:30.061 --> 00:26:35.929
And I think sometimes when a person who is less interested hears my affirmative
00:26:35.929 --> 00:26:38.869
response around CNM, they do
00:26:38.869 --> 00:26:43.729
sometimes get fearful that maybe I'm going to push. For sure. Absolutely.
00:26:44.309 --> 00:26:48.049
So do you say anything at the very beginning of the work that you're doing that
00:26:48.049 --> 00:26:51.770
makes that explicit that you don't get a vote and you're not going to push?
00:26:52.362 --> 00:26:56.169
Yeah, I do try to be explicit with that. I try to get ahead of it,
00:26:56.169 --> 00:26:59.206
actually, but there have been some times where I haven't necessarily,
00:26:59.636 --> 00:27:03.444
and I'll just say, you know what, I think I missed saying something.
00:27:03.549 --> 00:27:08.808
There's something in the room, because usually you can feel the suspicion kind of growing.
00:27:08.947 --> 00:27:13.423
And again, this happens with monogamous couples as well, but there's something in the room.
00:27:14.049 --> 00:27:19.471
And just identifying it. And so, you know, that really helps.
00:27:19.622 --> 00:27:23.886
And that's that attunement that means so much to all of us, right?
00:27:23.886 --> 00:27:29.716
That somebody's tracking and paying attention and really cares about the experience
00:27:29.978 --> 00:27:32.584
that everyone is having, not just one person.
00:27:32.857 --> 00:27:37.856
And so being able to really provide some care there,
00:27:38.296 --> 00:27:42.103
and this goes back to kind of holding, really caring about this partner who
00:27:42.277 --> 00:27:48.976
has been waiting and is so eager and really caring about this person who is like, wait, wait, what?
00:27:49.816 --> 00:27:55.937
Can we slow this train down? I agree. I explicitly say something.
00:27:56.280 --> 00:28:02.326
How do I do it? I often say I am not the therapist who's ever going to pressure
00:28:02.326 --> 00:28:03.805
you to do something you don't want to do.
00:28:04.090 --> 00:28:06.905
My job is to help you figure out what you do want to do.
00:28:07.201 --> 00:28:13.196
And oftentimes people figure that out through some combination of internal exploration
00:28:13.196 --> 00:28:15.624
and external experimentation of some sort.
00:28:15.810 --> 00:28:21.046
But at every single small step, I'm going to be interested to know what you're
00:28:21.046 --> 00:28:24.916
learning about yourself and what your emotions are telling you about what's
00:28:24.916 --> 00:28:29.756
important to you and folding that information into your next experiment.
00:28:29.756 --> 00:28:34.906
So at the point that you become clear that you do or you don't want to X,
00:28:34.906 --> 00:28:38.058
fill in the blank, whatever it might be, I'm going to back your play.
00:28:38.552 --> 00:28:42.436
And until Until then, we're going to play with a lot of possibility and learn
00:28:42.436 --> 00:28:43.916
from every single thing.
00:28:44.416 --> 00:28:47.311
Not what's like globally true, because there is no global truth.
00:28:47.712 --> 00:28:51.787
But what is your experience of this thing?
00:28:52.002 --> 00:28:56.188
And is there room to improve your experience of this thing in some way?
00:28:56.740 --> 00:29:02.131
And are you interested in that? And if you're like, no, I'm done, I'll be like, great.
00:29:02.381 --> 00:29:06.109
Thank you for your honesty. That's important clarity on your part.
00:29:06.555 --> 00:29:13.011
I agree that I don't get a vote is kind of how I say that. And so, and I don't get a vote.
00:29:13.323 --> 00:29:20.539
And I don't get a vote. You know, that's my language. And this idea of having
00:29:20.690 --> 00:29:25.897
some small experiment, this is something I learned from you and your book.
00:29:26.235 --> 00:29:33.924
And just interfacing with you that you can build a lot of success with doing
00:29:33.924 --> 00:29:39.137
small experiments that you feel fairly confident you can carry out.
00:29:39.508 --> 00:29:43.974
And that experiment might be that I could be honest with you about this thing
00:29:44.414 --> 00:29:46.674
or that I go do this thing.
00:29:46.974 --> 00:29:53.458
I've had people choose to share their fantasy about a famous person as an experiment.
00:29:53.673 --> 00:29:58.644
And that feels pretty non-threatening to some people. And then there are other
00:29:58.644 --> 00:30:02.995
people who, you know, feel very threatened by that. They wonder,
00:30:03.338 --> 00:30:08.220
what does this mean about our sex life? And how do I compare to this person?
00:30:08.650 --> 00:30:13.284
And it's a really great entry point that I think it can be easy to want to shy
00:30:13.284 --> 00:30:18.594
away from because you're surfacing insecurities, but I feel like I'd rather.
00:30:19.134 --> 00:30:24.108
Have that information and have each other have that information rather than not.
00:30:24.306 --> 00:30:30.214
That's going to be my call probably 99% of the time that let's find out what
00:30:30.214 --> 00:30:34.524
you learn about yourself and let's figure out how to communicate that and get
00:30:34.524 --> 00:30:37.737
to know what's true for you and what's true for your partner.
00:30:39.171 --> 00:30:46.584
A few minutes ago, you were talking about relational decision-making or relational decision to open.
00:30:46.584 --> 00:30:50.784
And I found myself kind of wandering in my mind about what exactly that means.
00:30:50.784 --> 00:30:54.024
And I don't know why I haven't put this together exactly like this before,
00:30:54.024 --> 00:30:59.570
but suddenly I realized, well, if somebody has been thinking about this for a little while,
00:31:00.076 --> 00:31:06.115
They've formed some ideas about what's possible in their own mind from either
00:31:06.115 --> 00:31:10.124
their imagination or some sources outside of themselves, but not their partner.
00:31:10.374 --> 00:31:16.608
And when you make a decision as a couple, both voices are in that decision.
00:31:16.858 --> 00:31:21.925
Both ideas are in there about what it might look like. Both desires,
00:31:21.925 --> 00:31:24.845
what am I afraid of? What am I excited about?
00:31:25.165 --> 00:31:28.785
What is it about this that lights me up? There are going to be many small and
00:31:28.785 --> 00:31:33.225
large differences between people and the formation of the thing.
00:31:33.225 --> 00:31:37.635
So when you start working on a project, whatever the project might be,
00:31:37.635 --> 00:31:44.721
in this case, opening your relationship, and you start that imaginary exploration solo,
00:31:45.081 --> 00:31:49.235
and then you bring it to an already existing committed relationship,
00:31:49.235 --> 00:31:53.846
it's not really we need to get your partner to catch up with your train.
00:31:54.840 --> 00:32:00.348
We need to get on a different train, one that the two of you made together.
00:32:01.660 --> 00:32:08.280
Where's the generative, juicy aspect of I have an idea and you have a response
00:32:08.280 --> 00:32:13.260
and that lights up another idea and we build something together that we're both
00:32:13.260 --> 00:32:16.220
curious about and we're taking each other into account.
00:32:16.220 --> 00:32:22.280
We're forming something out of the kind of synergy that is our unique self.
00:32:22.280 --> 00:32:25.960
So I think you build a different train. Yes.
00:32:26.631 --> 00:32:31.350
First of all, I love seeing you think through and put that together and the
00:32:31.350 --> 00:32:35.740
conclusions that you're coming to makes a ton of sense.
00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:40.640
And I think this is one of the things that makes it so difficult to stick with
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.960
your train analogy is sometimes a partner does not realize that they are actually
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:49.375
saying, leave your train and jump on mine.
00:32:49.689 --> 00:32:54.920
Or they could potentially be saying, leave your train and jump on mine versus
00:32:54.920 --> 00:33:00.050
what can we do together. And it doesn't mean that if you've been thinking about
00:33:00.050 --> 00:33:03.632
this over time that you can't still do that.
00:33:04.617 --> 00:33:09.911
I think at least recognizing that you have been on a train and you have been
00:33:09.911 --> 00:33:12.872
moving in a direction in your mind and building something,
00:33:13.163 --> 00:33:17.931
having that understanding and sensitivity could potentially make more room for
00:33:17.931 --> 00:33:19.891
like, oh, yeah, I was doing that.
00:33:20.491 --> 00:33:26.681
I didn't realize I was doing that. And I could see how this generative process,
00:33:26.681 --> 00:33:31.743
to use your language, could be so fulfilling for both parties.
00:33:32.236 --> 00:33:36.621
Yeah, you know, and both people are on a train. And as somebody who's,
00:33:36.621 --> 00:33:42.192
you know, in a 31-year relationship, I can tell you, we're always on different trains.
00:33:42.511 --> 00:33:47.155
Like, I'm going along doing my thing. Joanne's going along doing her thing.
00:33:47.643 --> 00:33:53.541
And we're aware of each other. But if there's a period of time when we're not
00:33:53.541 --> 00:34:00.381
in deep conversation about deep things, I could be three miles down this road
00:34:00.381 --> 00:34:02.581
and not even realize that she's not with me.
00:34:02.581 --> 00:34:07.693
Like, what if I start, I did start thinking, gosh, we should maybe consider
00:34:07.821 --> 00:34:11.043
under what circumstances we would leave the United States.
00:34:11.333 --> 00:34:14.578
Joanne's like, under no circumstances. Yeah.
00:34:16.163 --> 00:34:17.381
I'm like, wait, what?
00:34:19.437 --> 00:34:24.001
And it's just like a small example. Maybe it's not such a small example, but,
00:34:25.769 --> 00:34:32.741
what's going on in my internal construction is by definition not the same as
00:34:32.741 --> 00:34:34.848
what's going on in her internal construction.
00:34:35.103 --> 00:34:38.091
I've heard couples say, when did you start thinking that? You know,
00:34:38.091 --> 00:34:39.741
about a multitude of things.
00:34:40.481 --> 00:34:42.191
Like, oh, I was thinking about getting
00:34:42.191 --> 00:34:46.621
a dog. When did you start making or getting a second dog, you know?
00:34:47.561 --> 00:34:52.571
So yeah, definitely have seen the whole look, the whole turn to the other person
00:34:52.571 --> 00:34:56.599
and all of the body language around. What? I had no idea.
00:34:57.145 --> 00:35:03.074
So yeah, I think this train analogy is, you know, a good one.
00:35:03.451 --> 00:35:08.881
And it is okay. And I think non-problematic. I don't want to pathologize the
00:35:08.881 --> 00:35:14.681
idea that we've got these trains and they're moving and we can recalibrate and
00:35:14.681 --> 00:35:17.881
bring them back together and make one together.
00:35:17.881 --> 00:35:24.561
Like all of the combinations can be healthy. There's nothing about that autonomy
00:35:24.561 --> 00:35:26.757
that is inherently problematic.
00:35:27.581 --> 00:35:33.266
To circle this back to the idea that we have preconceived notions about what's
00:35:33.266 --> 00:35:37.786
possible in particular kinds of circumstances, the further down the road you
00:35:37.786 --> 00:35:40.984
are with a thought process that's kind of cemented like that,
00:35:41.332 --> 00:35:44.936
the more crunchy things get in the conversation.
00:35:45.396 --> 00:35:49.861
So that's why I think quite early on, it's important to start talking about
00:35:50.243 --> 00:35:53.924
the difference between an activity and an experience.
00:35:54.138 --> 00:36:00.419
I can have sex with another person and have any number of different kinds of experiences.
00:36:00.744 --> 00:36:06.556
So just saying I want to have sex with another person does not give my partner
00:36:06.556 --> 00:36:11.686
or my therapist nearly enough information about what I'm shooting for.
00:36:11.686 --> 00:36:14.212
We need to talk about what I want to experience.
00:36:14.445 --> 00:36:19.086
And then we also, I think, just from the department of some things take longer
00:36:19.086 --> 00:36:23.656
than others, it's really worth thinking about what are some pieces of that that
00:36:23.656 --> 00:36:25.699
you can bring into your life immediately.
00:36:26.285 --> 00:36:30.720
So that this isn't an endurance thing where you're standing around waiting for
00:36:30.720 --> 00:36:32.560
your partner to catch up.
00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:37.420
I think that's just a problematic vibe. Oh, yeah. Everything you're saying is
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:44.806
landing. And you're also putting yourself in a position to be responsible for your own happiness.
00:36:44.969 --> 00:36:49.300
And that can decrease this sense of like, I'm waiting for you to catch up.
00:36:49.300 --> 00:36:51.662
I'm mad that you're not catching up fast enough.
00:36:51.970 --> 00:36:55.238
And you're learning something about yourself at the same time.
00:36:55.458 --> 00:37:00.311
And sometimes you might even learn that, wow, it's possible that even if I don't
00:37:00.520 --> 00:37:02.889
get this thing, that I can be happy.
00:37:03.185 --> 00:37:06.552
Sometimes you learn that, wow, even if I don't get this thing,
00:37:06.825 --> 00:37:12.496
or if I do get this thing, it may not create what I'm looking for.
00:37:12.902 --> 00:37:16.918
Just because you open your relationship doesn't mean that you're going to meet
00:37:17.203 --> 00:37:21.214
the person that maybe you've configured in your mind and that the sexual encounter
00:37:21.487 --> 00:37:24.796
is going to go the way that you've configured in your mind.
00:37:25.103 --> 00:37:29.991
Chances actually are greater that none of those things are going to happen,
00:37:30.397 --> 00:37:33.666
that you're not going to meet the exact clone of.
00:37:34.095 --> 00:37:35.449
Whatever you'd pictured, that
00:37:35.652 --> 00:37:40.150
they're not going to have the exact characteristics that you had imagined.
00:37:40.150 --> 00:37:42.664
And sex can go a lot of different ways.
00:37:42.949 --> 00:37:47.780
So there's no guarantees there either. And I think that experiment that you're
00:37:47.780 --> 00:37:53.800
talking about with yourself first does open up the possibility of getting some insight there.
00:37:54.220 --> 00:37:58.100
Agreed. I'm curious, Skye, does this feel to you like a place to pause?
00:37:58.100 --> 00:38:01.200
I have a feeling we're going to be having more conversations about CNM here
00:38:01.200 --> 00:38:03.835
in a bit of a series. But I wonder if we should wrap this one up.
00:38:04.422 --> 00:38:08.984
I think we should wrap this one up and I hope everybody's going to stay tuned
00:38:08.984 --> 00:38:12.033
because there's lots more that can be said about this.
00:38:12.317 --> 00:38:16.754
You bet. And if you're in a conversation with your partner about CNM or with
00:38:16.754 --> 00:38:19.704
friends or with yourself, I think that's amazing.
00:38:19.704 --> 00:38:24.064
And think about what you want to experience, not just what activities you think
00:38:24.064 --> 00:38:27.484
are going to bring you that experience so that you're a little better prepared
00:38:27.484 --> 00:38:31.577
for some of these conversations. How about you? What would you leave our audience with?
00:38:31.989 --> 00:38:38.264
I would say if you are thinking about a consensually non-monogamous relationship
00:38:38.264 --> 00:38:43.744
or situation, definitely don't stop just with thinking about it.
00:38:43.744 --> 00:38:49.104
Maybe take one small step, whether that's reading a book, listening to a podcast.
00:38:49.104 --> 00:38:53.104
We're so glad you're here listening to us. But maybe take one more small step
00:38:53.104 --> 00:38:54.872
so that you can learn a little bit more.
00:38:55.405 --> 00:38:59.824
And if you like our podcast, please subscribe, share, rate, and review.
00:38:59.824 --> 00:39:01.697
It makes a huge difference.
00:39:02.104 --> 00:39:05.734
And if you're a therapist thinking about working with C&M for the first time,
00:39:05.734 --> 00:39:08.338
you have absolutely got this.
00:39:09.118 --> 00:39:12.054
If you're thinking about opening your relationship, I have a guide to help you
00:39:12.054 --> 00:39:14.794
prepare for and structure your conversation with your partner.
00:39:14.794 --> 00:39:17.315
It's called Eight Steps to Opening Up, and it's free.
00:39:17.494 --> 00:39:19.939
And I'll put the link in the show notes.
00:39:20.398 --> 00:39:24.327
It's very much about the conversation that Skye and I are having today.
00:39:24.867 --> 00:39:30.864
And if you are looking for a coach or a therapist to support your own exploration,
00:39:30.864 --> 00:39:36.342
you are welcome and invited to find me at workwithdrsky.com.
00:39:36.493 --> 00:39:41.718
I do respond to everyone that I hear from, so I look forward to hearing from you.