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[upbeat music] Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am Jay Rosenthal. I'm here with Anna Rae Grabstein and Jeremy Burke.
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This is a joint production called This Week in Cannabis Live between Cultivated, High Spirits, and Cannabis Musings, although Cannabis Musings and Mark Houser, he's not here today.
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[laughs] Uh, but I'm sure he has thoughts about what's going on. Uh- He always does. And we'll, we'll get his thoughts next week. [laughs] Um, welcome Anna Rae and Jeremy. Good morning. Thank you. Happy Friday.
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Happy Friday. Uh, I feel like because none of us were actually in the room at the DEA hearings, like, did they really actually happen? And of course they did.
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[laughs] Uh, now they are over, and now it's like a waiting game. I know, Jeremy, you've been talking to folks that were in the room. I've been talking to folks in the room.
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Anna Rae, you've been talking to folks in the room.
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Do we have any idea kn- knowing that no one, not, none of the three of us are lawyers, like, are we gonna hear something one day, or is it gonna be, like, dragged on forever? Anybody have any thoughts?
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They did announce- Go ahead. Yeah... uh, there, there's, there's, there's, is a date of August 17th that, um, additional briefings are due to the judge. Right, briefing, yeah. Um, so that's something.
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So I would say that it's going to be a minimum of a month from today before there's any more progress, and then after that, no, we don't know. And that, I'm okay with that.
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Uh, these hearings were historic, and some really interesting stuff was said on the record, and it's progress. Yeah. And Jeremy, you've written about, and we had on, um, Natalie Fertig and Gary Kaminsky over time. Yeah.
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And Mark talking about this too on this show, that it's really about setting a record to, to file [laughs] a lawsuit later. Talk a little bit about that. Yeah, sure. So, uh, we sent Natalie to the courtroom.
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She's a veteran journalist and knows kind of how these hearings work and how federal agencies work.
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Uh, one of the things that clued her into that conclusion was the fact that the DEA was really not cross-examining witnesses so much.
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They had a very particular angle in mind, uh, and they would only ask witnesses, like, two or three questions max and give back all the time, right?
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And so, um, you know, that's a sign of two things, and this is sort of reporter speculation and not, uh, actually reported, so take it with a grain of salt. But sign of two things.
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One is that the DEA has a relatively simple job to prove, which is that there is just one medical use of cannabis and that cannabis has not directly killed anyone. That is enough to get it off Schedule 3.
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Plus, the very fact that the White House, uh, Donald Trump himself wants this, which means, um, while it's not a foregone [laughs] conclusion how the ALJ will rule, it, it is, um, a strong suspicion that they will move it to Schedule 3 relatively soon.
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Um, whether that's, you know, after August 17th or before September 17th, you know, we don't know, but it is coming.
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The second piece of that is, you know, the opposition, those opposed to rescheduling, really used the hearing as a way to get on the record for an appeal in federal court all the risks they see with cannabis use, all the downsides to Schedule 3 to set up an appeal of which they are already pursuing.
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And so, uh, you know, it, it is very likely, uh, an outcome of this that we do see the ALJ rule to Schedule 3. It's possible Schedule 2. He, he has that ability to do that.
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Um, but it's likely we'll see Schedule 3, and then it is very likely we'll see this tangled up in federal courts for a while, unfortunately. That jives with your take as well, Anna Rae? Yeah, 100%. Yeah.
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I guess my question is, and, and, uh, I don't know the answer. Um [laughs] obviously I don't know the answer. [laughs] Nothing's been more obvious I may not know the answer. But, like- [laughs]...
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the lawsuits are coming for sure.
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Will there be a stay of the ALJ's ruling if it is Schedule 3, or will there not be a s- Like, that is seems to be a big inflection point, the timing notwithstanding, which could also, could drag on a very long time.
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I mean, the, the, the, the briefs are due, what, August 17th. But, like, maybe then we know s- when a ruling is being made and what happens after that.
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It just seems to me it also bleeds very closely into election season. Um- Yeah... impacts it, question mark, in some way.
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Um, I am also, uh, uh, yesterday, and Anna Rae, I know you watch, I don't know if you watched our webinar yesterday that we did with Moby and Jeremy and his, and, um, Graham Farrar from, um, from Glasshouse said he, like, he has PTSD from, um, all the things that could have happened in cannabis that haven't.
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So he's planning on things that have happened, which is Schedule 3 for medical cannabis.
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Everything else is everything else, which I thought was actually a pretty good take, which leads to my thought that whatever the least expected thing to happen out of this hearing is may be the thing- [laughs]...
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we should expect, [laughs] um, uh, to, to be honest. What would that be? Yeah. What, what is the least expected thing? I don't, I mean, honestly, i- i- if, if- But it works? [laughs] No, no. I,
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I would, my, I would ex- the least expected thing from my perspective, even based on what Jeremy said, what you've said, what lawyers said, what the DEA's role in this hearing was, what might happen with lawsuits, that for some time cannabis re- adult use cannabis remains on Schedule 1.
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Yeah. And Schedule 3 is medical cannabis, and everybody deals with that for some time until there's some legislative push.
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Well, it's funny that you say that because going into the hearing that was what I thought was the most expected outcome because I have spent 20 years being skeptical about policy change as a result- Right...
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of it just not moving. And then once the hearing started, I started to think, "Oh, actually the most expected outcome is that this is going to work and that adult use is going to become Schedule 3."
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So it's, it's been a, it's been a moving target the entire time. Yeah.
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And then actually there was a story today, I think it was today, that I read in Marijuana Moment about fund, uh, PAC funding for Trump-affiliated super PACs, and that there's been millions of dollars from some very big cannabis companies, which is fine.
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And the way that they have positioned the PAC fundraising, 'cause they quoted some of the fundraising, is that this is a, this is done That's my words, right?
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Like cannabis reform for cannabis medical research for veterans is done, and now give us money because, you know, policy goal achieved.
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I, I'm fearful that that is the, is the box to be checked, which has been checked, and which is not ideal, uh, for the industry right now.
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And so if they believe that, that policy goal is done, I am fearful that Schedule 1 is where adult use cannabis will be. I don't want that. That's what I'm s- that's what I'm fearful of. Yeah.
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So, so again you scooped my winner- Wow... which is the America First Agricultural Action PAC. [laughs] Um, and the details on, on what's happened is that this is a Trump-linked PAC- Yep...
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that pocketed $11.5 million from cannabis companies in a single month.
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And the way that that looks is that $2.5 million were deposited from Trulieve, Curaleaf, Verano, and Green Thumb, and then Aire and Ascend Wellness also chipped in more like 500,000 and a million dollars each.
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And, uh, this is, to me, uh, a signal that it's like a, it's a, it's a deposit to make sure that it gets done.
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Uh, so I would see this as, as not a Schedule 1 for medical was enough, but that, um, let's, let's take this to the finish line, please. Oh, hold on. Oh, did I- I know. Please No, no, that was [laughs] that was me.
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[laughs] I messed, I messed something up there. Um, I was pressing too many buttons. Yeah. I, I, I just, yes, and, uh, yeah, kudos to that PAC for, uh- [laughs]... shaking down the industry appropriately. Um, I guess.
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My words. Um, and taking advantage of this polic- this is the thing, the policy goal they think they achieved, right? Promise made, promise kept. Um, uh, w- I mean, I [laughs] don't wanna...
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Whatever the opposite of wish cast is, being super pessimistic, but what are some other outcomes that we could envision, Jeremy? I mean, the, yeah, the...
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I w- I was just gonna say, like, to, to your question, Jay, there are a lot of outcomes from this, right?
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Like cannabis could be Schedule 3, the court challenge could fail, and this could be wrapped up relatively quickly, that is, you know, rose-colored glasses, best case scenario.
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Um, the ALJ himself, you know, does, the judge does have the power to keep it Schedule 1 or Schedule 2, right? Like, that is within, you know, his remit and the DA's remit.
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Ultimately it flows to the DA administrator to make the rule, but, like, those are possible outcomes as well. And so, um, you know, we, we don't know till we know.
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I know, uh, that's the worst thing to say in, in cannabis, but it is very true, right? Um, this is how the federal sausage is made.
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Uh, it is an awkward spot the DEA is in, sort of, uh, arguing against its decades and decades of funded war on drugs, uh, to say, like, "Whoops, we made a mistake about this particular drug," right?
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Um, and so, you know, that does give me a little pessimism, but at the same time, uh, you know, Trump wants this.
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Uh, you know, the science is pretty clear on why sche- cannabis does not belong in Schedule 1, and so, you know, the rational view still, I think, is that cannabis does, sorry, recreational cannabis does go to Schedule 3.
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It's just gonna be fits and starts to get there. There's gonna be a fight. There's gonna be a court battle. Uh, there might be a stay. That is a very realistic outcome.
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Um, but you know, it's my, I will kind of, you know, put it on record that I think it gets there. Uh, it's just gonna take some time. Yeah, you're not, you're not, you're not predicting a timeline.
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You're just betting on Kalshi that it'll get there. It'll get there, yeah. I don't, I... But I don't know.
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You know, the odds in Kalshi will give you a timeline, and that, that I don't know yet, so [laughs]- Did you ha- Yeah...
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un- unrelated, did you see this Kalshi story about the, um, teleprompter operator for the president who has a making- Yeah. [laughs] Yeah... in the president's speeches. And- Yeah... he's only made 100 grand.
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Like, did you see that? Yeah.
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[laughs] Like, he knows what's in the speech, betting on some speech, and still can't capitalize on it because the president's so erratic, which actually fits back to the first point that he thinks he's actually done this job.
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Is Ka- is Kalshi tracking this, and are we tracking what Kalshi- I don't know... is predicting? Uh, they are. Yeah, they, they do have rescheduling odds. Um, I will look it up right now. Yeah. So how is that right there?
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Yeah. Um, let's see. Real fucking bet. Yeah, so, uh- Well, you'll, you'll know it's gonna happen when... If you- Oh, I'll t- I'll t- yeah, I'll tell you right now. So before January 20th, 2029 is 75%. Before 2028 is 67%.
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Before 2027 is 24%. The before- Before 2028... 2028 seems... Yeah. 24% 24%, yeah. Oh, wow. So- Yeah... someone, I mean, I...
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I mean, anyway, when, when, when the Trump sons and Howard Lutnick's sons start betting on the, start putting money on Kalshi- [laughs]... that's when you know what's gonna happen.
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If you see those numbers move very quickly one day, know it's either gonna happen or not gonna happen. That would be my- Yeah, yeah.
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Um, but, but look, the- these prediction markets tend to be pretty correct about things.
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Um, you know, as much as you don't l- if, you know, the business can be a little bit icky, but, like, [laughs] it, they are correct, uh, most of the time. So, you know, those are good odds to go by. Fair enough.
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Fair enough. Um, oh, so re- read those again, Jer, if you could. 24%, 20- Yeah. Hold, hold on one second. Just close the tab... before the end of this year. Um, it is... So 75% before January 20th, 2029.
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67% before 2028, and 24% before 2027, so this year. Well, then I also wonder, um, I mean, that, that lends itself to, um, other... Oh, here we go. Can I put this up? Oh, yeah, I'm gonna put this...
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Hold on, give me one sec. I'll sh- I'll just share. Yeah, share. [laughs] I'll share. You didn't share, but Anna rated. Um, hold on. Oh. It, I'm wondering how much has actually been bet. Can you see on Kalshi?
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How much money has been put on this? Uh, like the volume? It's, that's a good question Is, is that the amount of money that people have put down? 'Cause that shows it's $7.1 million. Where? I haven't actually betted.
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Um- Bottom left of the chart. Total volume, huh. Oh, yeah. There it is. And, and you can bet in 24 and 77 cent increments. [laughs] Pretty interesting. Okay. So we're gonna start tracking this.
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It's gonna be on the top of every newsletter between now- [laughs]... and, uh- Yeah. [laughs]... January 20th, 2029. Um, but I, but I also, I mean- Could be. Yeah.
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[laughs] The other s- a- another thing that happened i- this week, which, uh, doesn't necessarily fit into [laughs] what Kalie's talking about, although maybe it does, um, is that Democrats in the Senate, I guess, this is the most Chuck Schumer move so I'm just assuming it's the Senate, introduced what, yesterday, something they've introduced many, many times before, C-A-O-A.
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I forget what we're calling it. CAOA, which does not- CAOA They can't even come up with a good acronym that could make it like CAN something or, you know- Yeah, something cuter... Resolution 420. Uh-huh.
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Yeah, like, um, uh, Jeremy, you just, you posted this on our Slack channel. Give us a little rundown of this and what we're, uh- Yeah. So, so the, this, uh, this act has been introduced by Democrats before.
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Chuck Schumer has led it. You know, more power to Senator Schumer for actually trying to do something on cannabis policy but, you know, eve- yeah, a- and eventually we're gonna judge, uh, the outcome, not the intent.
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And so with that, we're left a little bit wanting. Um, at the same time, you know, one interesting new wrinkle in the bill is a vehicle to set up, uh, hemp derived THC regulations rather than a ban.
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And so this is at least a way for Democrats to show that they're attacking that problem. Um, and I, and, and look, like I, I don't think this act, uh, fully descheduling cannabis has any room to run in the Senate.
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Again, I could be wrong. You know, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.
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Um, at the same time, I do think, you know, maybe this is some start of a bipartisan negotiation around, uh, coming up with hemp derived THC rules, right? Um, Montana Senator Tim, Tim Sheehy also said the same thing.
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He said, "Look," uh, to a, to a group of, of hemp farmers and a, a trade group, said, "Look, you know, there is some bipartisan effort and push to o- to replace the hemp ban with age gating and, and, you know, um, traditional beverage regulation and rules."
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And so, um, it's certainly possible that, uh, you know, maybe it's a starting point for that.
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However, the full bill, uh, has not received, uh, since it's been introduced multiple times, it's never received a full floor vote in the Senate.
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Um, likely won't now, but potentially, you know, the hemp carve out could be interesting. That will be interesting to watch and I'm sure Ben and, has lots of things to say about that.
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Anna Ray, what, what are you hearing from your sources on this? Yeah.
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I, I, I don't think that anyone thinks that this bill has much of a chance, but the content of the bill is relevant and important, and this bill, uh, would require the FDA to finally do its job.
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It would get, um, TTB involved in regulation.
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I think it lays out a forward path that, um, if true legalization beyond adult use under Schedule 3 will ever move forward, if, if the descheduling reality that so many people in the industry, um, say that they want ever comes true, there are elements of this bill that create a skeleton of what would be needed for something like that to happen.
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Yeah.
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And so I think that it's, it's an interesting moment, um, when we're having the Schedule 3 conversations to bring this, uh, conversation back, and the addition of this hemp language, I, I agree with you Jeremy, is, is notable in the face of this massive amount of lobbying that's going on in DC right now, um,
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by the hemp industry to try to get something done before their November 12th ban. And, um, what I'm seeing when I see this is that this isn't only coming from Republicans.
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The Democrats now are also saying that something should be done for hemp. And, um, and this is a deschedule bill. And I think that, you know, this is ultimately what the industry- Right... wants and has been asking for.
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It, it adds a lot of complexity as it relates to the way that, um, social justice and harms of the war on drugs, uh, should or will be repaired under a bill like this.
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It creates a entire tax schedule that would be, um, very intense and challenging, I think, in the face of the state level taxes.
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Based on the taxes that are proposed in this bill, they, they could vary, but it's anywhere I think from like 5% to 25%. Yeah.
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And then when you look at what that would mean on top of state taxes that are, um, at the low end 10%, at the high end 40%, I mean, you could look at, at cannabis, yes, being descheduled and being legal, but also being taxed at 70%.
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Uh, so there's, there's a lot of complexity when we, when we look at the ultimate destination that many people in the industry say that they want and what that would mean in reality, which is lots more taxes.
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All of a sudden the FDA and TTB are, are inside your company with you. Right. [laughs] So it's, there's a, there's a lot, there's a lot here. Um- Um, it, it actually factors into something.
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Jeremy and I held a webinar yesterday with our friends at Moby, uh, and we had Canadian operators, we had Canadian plus international operators, we had Verano, and we had, uh, Glasshouse.
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And something that, uh, Raj Grover from High Tide, which is a cannabis retailer here in Canada, he said something that I think factors into, is a, you did a good segue, Anna Ray.
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[laughs] And you stepped on my segue even though I stepped on your Winter's Business. I wanna play what Raj said. Here we go
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Canada's taught us that legalization does not necessarily mean success will automatically happen for companies.
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And Mike and myself, we lived through this in Canada, so, you know, everybody got excited and they built a whole bunch of cultivation.
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There was so much capital that flowed in, and everybody forgot about basics, which was profitability. And when I looked around, a province like Ontario, there's no distance requirements, right?
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You could open dispensaries across the street, which is literally ridiculous. There's no money to be made there. So we saw that coming early, and we wanted to go with a highly differentiated strategy.
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Six years ago, I started piloting in three different provinces in Canada what happens if you focus on volumes, drop the margins, 'cause cannabis is commoditized, and I speak about this from personal experience.
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And so we piloted how we choose real estate, which is our anchored real estate strategy. Again, highly differentiated.
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We piloted, given all the data that we had, 70% of cannabis consumers, even today, care strictly about price as a value proposition. So we chose to go in a totally different direction where everybody else was headed.
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We knew if we follow the herd, we're going to get slaughtered. Thank God we didn't do that. We launched our discount club model after some very successful pilots that we did for about a year.
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So we had all the data to prove that, and then today it's become a winning proposition. I mean, they made some interesting moves along the way, but his point is well-received as part of this conversation, is that- Yes...
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just 'cause these regulatory things may happen, there may be interesting, interesting, and I'm, I'm using that in the most bro- broad word, interesting tax structures, more regulations.
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Business may get harder before it gets easier. There may be more ability to make more profit, but it's gonna be more difficult to get profitable, and there may be more competition.
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Like, I think it is a lesson well learned here that just because these things might happen does not mean your shitty business is gonna be great. [laughs] Correct. [laughs] Yeah. Correct. Yeah.
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I, I, I think that, that, that broadly when I think about descheduling and what that could mean for the industry, a- in addition to all of the regulatory and financial, uh, things that we've just touched on that are in this bill, I do think that it would be a substantive move in the right direction of shutting down the illicit market, um, in a way that has been challenging within the state-by-state model.
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So that would- Do you- That would be something that I would be watching.
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One of the things that I just thought about, [laughs] 'cause I'm a genius, no, uh, is that maybe we need to sort of start thinking about how we say these things, right?
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Like it's, it, rescheduled, yes, but also federally regulated.
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Like, it is a, it's, it's two e- two sides of the same corn, coin potentially that, you know, federally it gets rescheduled or descheduled, but rescheduled, and then regulated federally, which is a burden that I'm not sure lots of companies are ready for, which you sort of referenced, and s- maybe especially not the adult use ones, um,
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to comply with federal regulations around food and drugs or manufacturing or any of these things. It- it- it's, it's gonna add another layer of regulation that is challenging. Anna Ray, you work with more operators.
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Like, are they ready for that? Some, some are, absolutely.
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And, [laughs] and I will say when it comes to, uh, regulatory compliance, I do think that AI has been one of the biggest unlocks, uh, in, in this r- particular area of business because the ability to generate process, documentation, SOPs, and things is so much easier now with AI, and a lot of businesses have been upping their game in a big way.
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Uh, but yeah, there's plenty that aren't ready, but I think that those are the businesses that aren't gonna be ready for taxes either and- Right...
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and that they're probably benefiting from a lot of the immaturity that the, that the market is existing in today. But I, I think broadly- Yeah...
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it will be a good thing, um, [laughs] for, for businesses, for stability, for investors, all of those things. Fair enough. I'm gonna start using that term, federally regulated.
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[laughs] That's, that's, that is a, like, that is the outcome that everybody's- I think-... sort of waiting for. It just changes the dynamic When the FDA shows up is, is really, is really the big question. Uh- Okay.
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When the FDA shows up to the table, because the invitation is open today- Right... um, already. And, and the FDA just, cannabis does not fit into what they're used to doing- Right... and they don't know how to handle it.
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Right. Um, two other things. One, um, and we don't have to dwell on this, but Pennsylvania again- Yeah... did not put legalization or anything really in their budget.
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Um, and I know, Anna Ray, you hate Governor Shapiro, uh, for this. [laughs] You've, you've mentioned that before. You've called him a loser. No, he was one of your losers one time. Um, it, it, it doesn't surprise me.
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Pennsylvania politics, we're learning more and more about, it is cutthroat. It is evenly divided. It is a very purple state.
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Um, I just don't know if that portends to how other Republicans view this outside of Pennsylvania, but it's certainly not in the budget this year again, even though they could certainly use the money.
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All the states surrounding them are legal. They seem to have a rational sort of approach to most things, but can't get this one off the ground. Any thoughts? Yeah. I, I think it's, it's, uh,
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you know, the, the Democrats have to win back the Pennsylvania state legislature for anything to happen. Um, and until then, it's kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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You know, Shapiro is a pretty effective governor by all, you know, senses and, uh, he's, he's good at, at getting what he wants.
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At the same time, there is just deep Republican obstinance, um, despite, you know, Donald Trump at the top within state houses, there's just deep, deep obstinance to, uh, cannabis regulation and, and Pennsylvania is the same.
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And so they're gonna just keep bumping up against the rock until, you know, the Democrats take back the House.
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Now, a- again, to your point, it's not to say the Democrats are gonna write perfect legislation that makes all these businesses thrive. They're absolutely not [laughs] gonna do that, um, based on recent experience.
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But, you know, it's better than the status quo, you know, for every business. And so, uh, it's an incremental gain that, uh, you know, we're all looking at. Yeah. Yeah.
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Um- The, the H word is extreme, so, um, sorry to, uh, Governor Shapiro.
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But, uh- [laughs] H- here, here's the thing, I actually appreciate this because I believe in accepting reality and not being in denial about something that is not going to happen.
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And I think that it has been overly optimistic that legalization has ended up in the budget s- the, the, over the last few sessions in Pennsylvania, and then not gotten over the finish line.
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So this shows that there is a healthy amount of acceptance of reality that under the current state and current circumstances, this is not moving forward anymore. Yeah.
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And that in order [laughs] for this to move forward, the Democrats need to control, um, more seats. And if and when that happens, then I think it will be back on the table. I like it. Yeah. Fair point.
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Um, it is now time on the program for everybody's favorite segment. [cheering] [booing] That's the intro for winners and losers. Is everybody ready for winners and losers? Yeah. All right.
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Uh, Jeremy, you're gonna go first. All right. So [laughs] my winner, um, I, I laugh because it's the DEA. Uh, they did the hearing. They, they did it. You know, I, I loathe to give the DEA credit.
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Uh, they were told to do this hearing. They did the hearing. It is now over. Uh, you know, well [laughs] well done DEA, I guess. I never thought I'd ever say that.
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Um, at the same time, I'd, I have heard the DEA museum is very cool, where they held the hearing. So, you know, someday we'll do a Cultivated road trip and, and go visit that. Well, I mean- Um-...
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the day we can broadcast from their media room, that would be really something. Yeah. I just want the jacket.
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I just think the jackets are, are sick, even though I'd probably get eggs thrown at me if I wore it, but it's a cool jacket. Um- I think eggs would be the least that happens to you. [laughs] Right. Um,
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so yeah, I mean, if they, look, if they, if they pursue cannabis reform, I will, I will wear the jacket proudly. Um, I will not actually. No, on second thought. Um,
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uh, my loser this week, and again, this is a very simple loser, is, uh, Smart Approaches to Marijuana. Um, I think, you know, they fought the good fight in the hearing.
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I think, you know, from all intents and purposes, it did not go very well for them. Um, and I do think that, you know, cannabis policy does need real credible opposition.
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Like, there are risks associated with legalization and, and good policy. You know, captures the upsides and minimizes the benefits. And, uh, that opposition is no longer Smart Approaches to Marijuana.
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And I think one thing, at least I'm, I'm a little bit heartened by in the hearing, was that, um, states brought other credible medical professionals who have, you know, much more, who may be against cannabis reform, but have much more data-driven nuanced views.
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And so, um, I hope we can have a real discussion with them and not continue to have discussions with organizations like Smart Approaches to Marijuana, which are polemicists disguised as advocacy groups.
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So that's my loser for the week. I like it. Wow. We're gonna clip that. [laughs] Um, Anna Ray, winners, losers? Ooh, um, I'll, I'll bring it home to my local hometown of San Francisco for a winner.
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Uh, Amsterdam style cafes that intro- that introduce like food, beverage, and music with cannabis are finally going to be allowed here. And this is so many years after legalization.
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Uh, the board of supervisors finally is, is allowing this coming together of, um, hospitality and entertainment with cannabis. And, um, that is hopefully a win.
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A lot of people are saying that, um, that this will bring some new life into the dispensaries and give them some new revenue streams. But ultimately I think it's about the culture.
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In San Francisco, you know, people think about Haight Street and the Summer of Love, and Grateful Dead, and Janis Joplin, and everything that happened here in the '60s and '70s.
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And so I'm just excited to get to have music and weed all together in one place. Um, so yeah. That seems more likely we could do a show from there than the DEA Museum. Yeah, [laughs] totally.
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[laughs] Um, and, and my other winner I mentioned is this PAC that has just raked in a whole bunch of cash, um, in the last month.
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And, um, I think on the other side of that is, um, is that the losers are, are all of these cannabis companies that are just working so hard, but they don't have enough money to be thrown at the government right now, so they just don't have a say in politics.
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That's, that's, that's Citizens United right there. Yeah. [laughs] Um- Right... I like it. Uh, I have a winner and a loser. My winner is actually the same as last week.
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Um, and that is, uh, Melissa Henry [laughs] from, uh, Kiva Confections. We had her on this week to talk about her Conan adventure. Uh, it was a great conversation.
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Like really, we got really granular about how she heard it was being talked about, exactly what they did internally, how they actually executed by getting to, um, uh, Sona on the show.
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Uh, but it was also interesting 'cause she happens to live right there, Melissa does.
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So the parking lot where apparently Conan O'Brien's show is, where you park, is actually the same parking lot as where her kids go to the dentist. So there was some funny, some funny things happening.
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So kudos to Melissa and her team, uh, for that. Uh, I've gotta redo that winner loser just to be self-promotional about something we actually did on Cultivate. [laughs] You can watch that.
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It's got a lot of views, so check out that conversation. My loser is Idaho legislators, which might be a standing loser if that's the case.
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So there was a petition to legalize cannabis, like a petition, signature petition. The signatures did not pass.
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They were like 12,000 short, and it almost didn't matter because simultaneously the legislature there, I don't even know if there's a Democrat in the legislature in Idaho, I honestly have no idea, um, passed a, passed a law that suggested that only be- the legislature can only legalize cannabis in any way, any way, um, in any way.
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So they're the losers. Don't at me Idaho legislators on Twitter. I'm sure they watch this religiously. So, uh, that's my loser of the week. Uh, my winner of the week is Melissa again, and, um, and all of you.
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You guys are both winners. You, you're a winner too, Jay. I w- Yeah... I was gonna say that actually. [laughs] No you weren't. Number one. No you weren't. [laughs] You're doing such a good job.
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I will do a tease here for the, I don't know, several dozen people watching now, but couple hundred that will watch along the line.
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Jeremy and I next week, a little teaser, we're launching what we're calling Cultivated Community. It'll be very easy to join.
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It'll be an ongoing feed, uh, featuring sort of things we find during the day, other conversations we wanna have. You'll be able to find it on our website. If you get our newsletter, you'll get prompted to go join it.
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It'll be super fun. Anna Ray, you're gonna get the first invite, um, uh, right after this show. And, um, yeah, we will see everybody there, but that's a teaser 'cause it's not officially launched yet.
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But if you actually go to cultivated.news/community, you should be able to find it right now. Um, and we will see everybody there, and, uh, we'll see everybody next Friday. Sweet. So good to see you guys.
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Nice to see you. Thank you. Thank you everybody. That was fun. Yeah, it was fun. Find everything we do at cultivated.news. You can find Anna Ray at High Spirits wherever you get your podcasts.
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You can also find Jeremy on Twitter. He's great on Twitter. He likes to get in, uh, quite a few- Twitter doesn't exist anymore. Okay. It's not a thing. He likes to get in X fights. [laughs] Uh, so- Yeah...
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uh, you should go check him out there. Come, come battle me. Okay. [laughs] Bye.
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[upbeat music] Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am Jay Rosenthal. I'm here with Anna Rae Grabstein and Jeremy Burke.
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This is a joint production called This Week in Cannabis Live between Cultivated, High Spirits, and Cannabis Musings, although Cannabis Musings and Mark Houser, he's not here today.
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[laughs] Uh, but I'm sure he has thoughts about what's going on. Uh- He always does. And we'll, we'll get his thoughts next week. [laughs] Um, welcome Anna Rae and Jeremy. Good morning. Thank you. Happy Friday.
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Happy Friday. Uh, I feel like because none of us were actually in the room at the DEA hearings, like, did they really actually happen? And of course they did.
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[laughs] Uh, now they are over, and now it's like a waiting game. I know, Jeremy, you've been talking to folks that were in the room. I've been talking to folks in the room.
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Anna Rae, you've been talking to folks in the room.
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Do we have any idea kn- knowing that no one, not, none of the three of us are lawyers, like, are we gonna hear something one day, or is it gonna be, like, dragged on forever? Anybody have any thoughts?
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They did announce- Go ahead. Yeah... uh, there, there's, there's, there's, is a date of August 17th that, um, additional briefings are due to the judge. Right, briefing, yeah. Um, so that's something.
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So I would say that it's going to be a minimum of a month from today before there's any more progress, and then after that, no, we don't know. And that, I'm okay with that.
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Uh, these hearings were historic, and some really interesting stuff was said on the record, and it's progress. Yeah. And Jeremy, you've written about, and we had on, um, Natalie Fertig and Gary Kaminsky over time. Yeah.
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And Mark talking about this too on this show, that it's really about setting a record to, to file [laughs] a lawsuit later. Talk a little bit about that. Yeah, sure. So, uh, we sent Natalie to the courtroom.
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She's a veteran journalist and knows kind of how these hearings work and how federal agencies work.
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Uh, one of the things that clued her into that conclusion was the fact that the DEA was really not cross-examining witnesses so much.
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They had a very particular angle in mind, uh, and they would only ask witnesses, like, two or three questions max and give back all the time, right?
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And so, um, you know, that's a sign of two things, and this is sort of reporter speculation and not, uh, actually reported, so take it with a grain of salt. But sign of two things.
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One is that the DEA has a relatively simple job to prove, which is that there is just one medical use of cannabis and that cannabis has not directly killed anyone. That is enough to get it off Schedule 3.
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Plus, the very fact that the White House, uh, Donald Trump himself wants this, which means, um, while it's not a foregone [laughs] conclusion how the ALJ will rule, it, it is, um, a strong suspicion that they will move it to Schedule 3 relatively soon.
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Um, whether that's, you know, after August 17th or before September 17th, you know, we don't know, but it is coming.
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The second piece of that is, you know, the opposition, those opposed to rescheduling, really used the hearing as a way to get on the record for an appeal in federal court all the risks they see with cannabis use, all the downsides to Schedule 3 to set up an appeal of which they are already pursuing.
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And so, uh, you know, it, it is very likely, uh, an outcome of this that we do see the ALJ rule to Schedule 3. It's possible Schedule 2. He, he has that ability to do that.
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Um, but it's likely we'll see Schedule 3, and then it is very likely we'll see this tangled up in federal courts for a while, unfortunately. That jives with your take as well, Anna Rae? Yeah, 100%. Yeah.
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I guess my question is, and, and, uh, I don't know the answer. Um [laughs] obviously I don't know the answer. [laughs] Nothing's been more obvious I may not know the answer. But, like- [laughs]...
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the lawsuits are coming for sure.
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Will there be a stay of the ALJ's ruling if it is Schedule 3, or will there not be a s- Like, that is seems to be a big inflection point, the timing notwithstanding, which could also, could drag on a very long time.
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I mean, the, the, the, the briefs are due, what, August 17th. But, like, maybe then we know s- when a ruling is being made and what happens after that.
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It just seems to me it also bleeds very closely into election season. Um- Yeah... impacts it, question mark, in some way.
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Um, I am also, uh, uh, yesterday, and Anna Rae, I know you watch, I don't know if you watched our webinar yesterday that we did with Moby and Jeremy and his, and, um, Graham Farrar from, um, from Glasshouse said he, like, he has PTSD from, um, all the things that could have happened in cannabis that haven't.
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So he's planning on things that have happened, which is Schedule 3 for medical cannabis.
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Everything else is everything else, which I thought was actually a pretty good take, which leads to my thought that whatever the least expected thing to happen out of this hearing is may be the thing- [laughs]...
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we should expect, [laughs] um, uh, to, to be honest. What would that be? Yeah. What, what is the least expected thing? I don't, I mean, honestly, i- i- if, if- But it works? [laughs] No, no. I,
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I would, my, I would ex- the least expected thing from my perspective, even based on what Jeremy said, what you've said, what lawyers said, what the DEA's role in this hearing was, what might happen with lawsuits, that for some time cannabis re- adult use cannabis remains on Schedule 1.
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Yeah. And Schedule 3 is medical cannabis, and everybody deals with that for some time until there's some legislative push.
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Well, it's funny that you say that because going into the hearing that was what I thought was the most expected outcome because I have spent 20 years being skeptical about policy change as a result- Right...
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of it just not moving. And then once the hearing started, I started to think, "Oh, actually the most expected outcome is that this is going to work and that adult use is going to become Schedule 3."
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So it's, it's been a, it's been a moving target the entire time. Yeah.
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And then actually there was a story today, I think it was today, that I read in Marijuana Moment about fund, uh, PAC funding for Trump-affiliated super PACs, and that there's been millions of dollars from some very big cannabis companies, which is fine.
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And the way that they have positioned the PAC fundraising, 'cause they quoted some of the fundraising, is that this is a, this is done That's my words, right?
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Like cannabis reform for cannabis medical research for veterans is done, and now give us money because, you know, policy goal achieved.
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I, I'm fearful that that is the, is the box to be checked, which has been checked, and which is not ideal, uh, for the industry right now.
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And so if they believe that, that policy goal is done, I am fearful that Schedule 1 is where adult use cannabis will be. I don't want that. That's what I'm s- that's what I'm fearful of. Yeah.
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So, so again you scooped my winner- Wow... which is the America First Agricultural Action PAC. [laughs] Um, and the details on, on what's happened is that this is a Trump-linked PAC- Yep...
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that pocketed $11.5 million from cannabis companies in a single month.
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And the way that that looks is that $2.5 million were deposited from Trulieve, Curaleaf, Verano, and Green Thumb, and then Aire and Ascend Wellness also chipped in more like 500,000 and a million dollars each.
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And, uh, this is, to me, uh, a signal that it's like a, it's a, it's a deposit to make sure that it gets done.
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Uh, so I would see this as, as not a Schedule 1 for medical was enough, but that, um, let's, let's take this to the finish line, please. Oh, hold on. Oh, did I- I know. Please No, no, that was [laughs] that was me.
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[laughs] I messed, I messed something up there. Um, I was pressing too many buttons. Yeah. I, I, I just, yes, and, uh, yeah, kudos to that PAC for, uh- [laughs]... shaking down the industry appropriately. Um, I guess.
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My words. Um, and taking advantage of this polic- this is the thing, the policy goal they think they achieved, right? Promise made, promise kept. Um, uh, w- I mean, I [laughs] don't wanna...
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Whatever the opposite of wish cast is, being super pessimistic, but what are some other outcomes that we could envision, Jeremy? I mean, the, yeah, the...
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I w- I was just gonna say, like, to, to your question, Jay, there are a lot of outcomes from this, right?
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Like cannabis could be Schedule 3, the court challenge could fail, and this could be wrapped up relatively quickly, that is, you know, rose-colored glasses, best case scenario.
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Um, the ALJ himself, you know, does, the judge does have the power to keep it Schedule 1 or Schedule 2, right? Like, that is within, you know, his remit and the DA's remit.
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Ultimately it flows to the DA administrator to make the rule, but, like, those are possible outcomes as well. And so, um, you know, we, we don't know till we know.
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I know, uh, that's the worst thing to say in, in cannabis, but it is very true, right? Um, this is how the federal sausage is made.
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Uh, it is an awkward spot the DEA is in, sort of, uh, arguing against its decades and decades of funded war on drugs, uh, to say, like, "Whoops, we made a mistake about this particular drug," right?
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Um, and so, you know, that does give me a little pessimism, but at the same time, uh, you know, Trump wants this.
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Uh, you know, the science is pretty clear on why sche- cannabis does not belong in Schedule 1, and so, you know, the rational view still, I think, is that cannabis does, sorry, recreational cannabis does go to Schedule 3.
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It's just gonna be fits and starts to get there. There's gonna be a fight. There's gonna be a court battle. Uh, there might be a stay. That is a very realistic outcome.
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Um, but you know, it's my, I will kind of, you know, put it on record that I think it gets there. Uh, it's just gonna take some time. Yeah, you're not, you're not, you're not predicting a timeline.
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You're just betting on Kalshi that it'll get there. It'll get there, yeah. I don't, I... But I don't know.
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You know, the odds in Kalshi will give you a timeline, and that, that I don't know yet, so [laughs]- Did you ha- Yeah...
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un- unrelated, did you see this Kalshi story about the, um, teleprompter operator for the president who has a making- Yeah. [laughs] Yeah... in the president's speeches. And- Yeah... he's only made 100 grand.
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Like, did you see that? Yeah.
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[laughs] Like, he knows what's in the speech, betting on some speech, and still can't capitalize on it because the president's so erratic, which actually fits back to the first point that he thinks he's actually done this job.
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Is Ka- is Kalshi tracking this, and are we tracking what Kalshi- I don't know... is predicting? Uh, they are. Yeah, they, they do have rescheduling odds. Um, I will look it up right now. Yeah. So how is that right there?
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Yeah. Um, let's see. Real fucking bet. Yeah, so, uh- Well, you'll, you'll know it's gonna happen when... If you- Oh, I'll t- I'll t- yeah, I'll tell you right now. So before January 20th, 2029 is 75%. Before 2028 is 67%.
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Before 2027 is 24%. The before- Before 2028... 2028 seems... Yeah. 24% 24%, yeah. Oh, wow. So- Yeah... someone, I mean, I...
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I mean, anyway, when, when, when the Trump sons and Howard Lutnick's sons start betting on the, start putting money on Kalshi- [laughs]... that's when you know what's gonna happen.
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If you see those numbers move very quickly one day, know it's either gonna happen or not gonna happen. That would be my- Yeah, yeah.
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Um, but, but look, the- these prediction markets tend to be pretty correct about things.
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Um, you know, as much as you don't l- if, you know, the business can be a little bit icky, but, like, [laughs] it, they are correct, uh, most of the time. So, you know, those are good odds to go by. Fair enough.
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Fair enough. Um, oh, so re- read those again, Jer, if you could. 24%, 20- Yeah. Hold, hold on one second. Just close the tab... before the end of this year. Um, it is... So 75% before January 20th, 2029.
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67% before 2028, and 24% before 2027, so this year. Well, then I also wonder, um, I mean, that, that lends itself to, um, other... Oh, here we go. Can I put this up? Oh, yeah, I'm gonna put this...
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Hold on, give me one sec. I'll sh- I'll just share. Yeah, share. [laughs] I'll share. You didn't share, but Anna rated. Um, hold on. Oh. It, I'm wondering how much has actually been bet. Can you see on Kalshi?
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How much money has been put on this? Uh, like the volume? It's, that's a good question Is, is that the amount of money that people have put down? 'Cause that shows it's $7.1 million. Where? I haven't actually betted.
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Um- Bottom left of the chart. Total volume, huh. Oh, yeah. There it is. And, and you can bet in 24 and 77 cent increments. [laughs] Pretty interesting. Okay. So we're gonna start tracking this.
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It's gonna be on the top of every newsletter between now- [laughs]... and, uh- Yeah. [laughs]... January 20th, 2029. Um, but I, but I also, I mean- Could be. Yeah.
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[laughs] The other s- a- another thing that happened i- this week, which, uh, doesn't necessarily fit into [laughs] what Kalie's talking about, although maybe it does, um, is that Democrats in the Senate, I guess, this is the most Chuck Schumer move so I'm just assuming it's the Senate, introduced what, yesterday, something they've introduced many, many times before, C-A-O-A.
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I forget what we're calling it. CAOA, which does not- CAOA They can't even come up with a good acronym that could make it like CAN something or, you know- Yeah, something cuter... Resolution 420. Uh-huh.
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Yeah, like, um, uh, Jeremy, you just, you posted this on our Slack channel. Give us a little rundown of this and what we're, uh- Yeah. So, so the, this, uh, this act has been introduced by Democrats before.
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Chuck Schumer has led it. You know, more power to Senator Schumer for actually trying to do something on cannabis policy but, you know, eve- yeah, a- and eventually we're gonna judge, uh, the outcome, not the intent.
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And so with that, we're left a little bit wanting. Um, at the same time, you know, one interesting new wrinkle in the bill is a vehicle to set up, uh, hemp derived THC regulations rather than a ban.
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And so this is at least a way for Democrats to show that they're attacking that problem. Um, and I, and, and look, like I, I don't think this act, uh, fully descheduling cannabis has any room to run in the Senate.
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Again, I could be wrong. You know, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.
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Um, at the same time, I do think, you know, maybe this is some start of a bipartisan negotiation around, uh, coming up with hemp derived THC rules, right? Um, Montana Senator Tim, Tim Sheehy also said the same thing.
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He said, "Look," uh, to a, to a group of, of hemp farmers and a, a trade group, said, "Look, you know, there is some bipartisan effort and push to o- to replace the hemp ban with age gating and, and, you know, um, traditional beverage regulation and rules."
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And so, um, it's certainly possible that, uh, you know, maybe it's a starting point for that.
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However, the full bill, uh, has not received, uh, since it's been introduced multiple times, it's never received a full floor vote in the Senate.
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Um, likely won't now, but potentially, you know, the hemp carve out could be interesting. That will be interesting to watch and I'm sure Ben and, has lots of things to say about that.
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Anna Ray, what, what are you hearing from your sources on this? Yeah.
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I, I, I don't think that anyone thinks that this bill has much of a chance, but the content of the bill is relevant and important, and this bill, uh, would require the FDA to finally do its job.
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It would get, um, TTB involved in regulation.
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I think it lays out a forward path that, um, if true legalization beyond adult use under Schedule 3 will ever move forward, if, if the descheduling reality that so many people in the industry, um, say that they want ever comes true, there are elements of this bill that create a skeleton of what would be needed for something like that to happen.
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Yeah.
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And so I think that it's, it's an interesting moment, um, when we're having the Schedule 3 conversations to bring this, uh, conversation back, and the addition of this hemp language, I, I agree with you Jeremy, is, is notable in the face of this massive amount of lobbying that's going on in DC right now, um,
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by the hemp industry to try to get something done before their November 12th ban. And, um, what I'm seeing when I see this is that this isn't only coming from Republicans.
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The Democrats now are also saying that something should be done for hemp. And, um, and this is a deschedule bill. And I think that, you know, this is ultimately what the industry- Right... wants and has been asking for.
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It, it adds a lot of complexity as it relates to the way that, um, social justice and harms of the war on drugs, uh, should or will be repaired under a bill like this.
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It creates a entire tax schedule that would be, um, very intense and challenging, I think, in the face of the state level taxes.
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Based on the taxes that are proposed in this bill, they, they could vary, but it's anywhere I think from like 5% to 25%. Yeah.
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And then when you look at what that would mean on top of state taxes that are, um, at the low end 10%, at the high end 40%, I mean, you could look at, at cannabis, yes, being descheduled and being legal, but also being taxed at 70%.
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Uh, so there's, there's a lot of complexity when we, when we look at the ultimate destination that many people in the industry say that they want and what that would mean in reality, which is lots more taxes.
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All of a sudden the FDA and TTB are, are inside your company with you. Right. [laughs] So it's, there's a, there's a lot, there's a lot here. Um- Um, it, it actually factors into something.
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Jeremy and I held a webinar yesterday with our friends at Moby, uh, and we had Canadian operators, we had Canadian plus international operators, we had Verano, and we had, uh, Glasshouse.
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And something that, uh, Raj Grover from High Tide, which is a cannabis retailer here in Canada, he said something that I think factors into, is a, you did a good segue, Anna Ray.
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[laughs] And you stepped on my segue even though I stepped on your Winter's Business. I wanna play what Raj said. Here we go
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Canada's taught us that legalization does not necessarily mean success will automatically happen for companies.
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And Mike and myself, we lived through this in Canada, so, you know, everybody got excited and they built a whole bunch of cultivation.
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There was so much capital that flowed in, and everybody forgot about basics, which was profitability. And when I looked around, a province like Ontario, there's no distance requirements, right?
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You could open dispensaries across the street, which is literally ridiculous. There's no money to be made there. So we saw that coming early, and we wanted to go with a highly differentiated strategy.
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Six years ago, I started piloting in three different provinces in Canada what happens if you focus on volumes, drop the margins, 'cause cannabis is commoditized, and I speak about this from personal experience.
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And so we piloted how we choose real estate, which is our anchored real estate strategy. Again, highly differentiated.
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We piloted, given all the data that we had, 70% of cannabis consumers, even today, care strictly about price as a value proposition. So we chose to go in a totally different direction where everybody else was headed.
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We knew if we follow the herd, we're going to get slaughtered. Thank God we didn't do that. We launched our discount club model after some very successful pilots that we did for about a year.
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So we had all the data to prove that, and then today it's become a winning proposition. I mean, they made some interesting moves along the way, but his point is well-received as part of this conversation, is that- Yes...
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just 'cause these regulatory things may happen, there may be interesting, interesting, and I'm, I'm using that in the most bro- broad word, interesting tax structures, more regulations.
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Business may get harder before it gets easier. There may be more ability to make more profit, but it's gonna be more difficult to get profitable, and there may be more competition.
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Like, I think it is a lesson well learned here that just because these things might happen does not mean your shitty business is gonna be great. [laughs] Correct. [laughs] Yeah. Correct. Yeah.
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I, I, I think that, that, that broadly when I think about descheduling and what that could mean for the industry, a- in addition to all of the regulatory and financial, uh, things that we've just touched on that are in this bill, I do think that it would be a substantive move in the right direction of shutting down the illicit market, um, in a way that has been challenging within the state-by-state model.
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So that would- Do you- That would be something that I would be watching.
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One of the things that I just thought about, [laughs] 'cause I'm a genius, no, uh, is that maybe we need to sort of start thinking about how we say these things, right?
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Like it's, it, rescheduled, yes, but also federally regulated.
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Like, it is a, it's, it's two e- two sides of the same corn, coin potentially that, you know, federally it gets rescheduled or descheduled, but rescheduled, and then regulated federally, which is a burden that I'm not sure lots of companies are ready for, which you sort of referenced, and s- maybe especially not the adult use ones, um,
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to comply with federal regulations around food and drugs or manufacturing or any of these things. It- it- it's, it's gonna add another layer of regulation that is challenging. Anna Ray, you work with more operators.
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Like, are they ready for that? Some, some are, absolutely.
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And, [laughs] and I will say when it comes to, uh, regulatory compliance, I do think that AI has been one of the biggest unlocks, uh, in, in this r- particular area of business because the ability to generate process, documentation, SOPs, and things is so much easier now with AI, and a lot of businesses have been upping their game in a big way.
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Uh, but yeah, there's plenty that aren't ready, but I think that those are the businesses that aren't gonna be ready for taxes either and- Right...
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and that they're probably benefiting from a lot of the immaturity that the, that the market is existing in today. But I, I think broadly- Yeah...
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it will be a good thing, um, [laughs] for, for businesses, for stability, for investors, all of those things. Fair enough. I'm gonna start using that term, federally regulated.
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[laughs] That's, that's, that is a, like, that is the outcome that everybody's- I think-... sort of waiting for. It just changes the dynamic When the FDA shows up is, is really, is really the big question. Uh- Okay.
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When the FDA shows up to the table, because the invitation is open today- Right... um, already. And, and the FDA just, cannabis does not fit into what they're used to doing- Right... and they don't know how to handle it.
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Right. Um, two other things. One, um, and we don't have to dwell on this, but Pennsylvania again- Yeah... did not put legalization or anything really in their budget.
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Um, and I know, Anna Ray, you hate Governor Shapiro, uh, for this. [laughs] You've, you've mentioned that before. You've called him a loser. No, he was one of your losers one time. Um, it, it, it doesn't surprise me.
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Pennsylvania politics, we're learning more and more about, it is cutthroat. It is evenly divided. It is a very purple state.
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Um, I just don't know if that portends to how other Republicans view this outside of Pennsylvania, but it's certainly not in the budget this year again, even though they could certainly use the money.
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All the states surrounding them are legal. They seem to have a rational sort of approach to most things, but can't get this one off the ground. Any thoughts? Yeah. I, I think it's, it's, uh,
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you know, the, the Democrats have to win back the Pennsylvania state legislature for anything to happen. Um, and until then, it's kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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You know, Shapiro is a pretty effective governor by all, you know, senses and, uh, he's, he's good at, at getting what he wants.
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At the same time, there is just deep Republican obstinance, um, despite, you know, Donald Trump at the top within state houses, there's just deep, deep obstinance to, uh, cannabis regulation and, and Pennsylvania is the same.
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And so they're gonna just keep bumping up against the rock until, you know, the Democrats take back the House.
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Now, a- again, to your point, it's not to say the Democrats are gonna write perfect legislation that makes all these businesses thrive. They're absolutely not [laughs] gonna do that, um, based on recent experience.
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But, you know, it's better than the status quo, you know, for every business. And so, uh, it's an incremental gain that, uh, you know, we're all looking at. Yeah. Yeah.
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Um- The, the H word is extreme, so, um, sorry to, uh, Governor Shapiro.
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But, uh- [laughs] H- here, here's the thing, I actually appreciate this because I believe in accepting reality and not being in denial about something that is not going to happen.
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And I think that it has been overly optimistic that legalization has ended up in the budget s- the, the, over the last few sessions in Pennsylvania, and then not gotten over the finish line.
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So this shows that there is a healthy amount of acceptance of reality that under the current state and current circumstances, this is not moving forward anymore. Yeah.
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And that in order [laughs] for this to move forward, the Democrats need to control, um, more seats. And if and when that happens, then I think it will be back on the table. I like it. Yeah. Fair point.
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Um, it is now time on the program for everybody's favorite segment. [cheering] [booing] That's the intro for winners and losers. Is everybody ready for winners and losers? Yeah. All right.
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Uh, Jeremy, you're gonna go first. All right. So [laughs] my winner, um, I, I laugh because it's the DEA. Uh, they did the hearing. They, they did it. You know, I, I loathe to give the DEA credit.
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Uh, they were told to do this hearing. They did the hearing. It is now over. Uh, you know, well [laughs] well done DEA, I guess. I never thought I'd ever say that.
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Um, at the same time, I'd, I have heard the DEA museum is very cool, where they held the hearing. So, you know, someday we'll do a Cultivated road trip and, and go visit that. Well, I mean- Um-...
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the day we can broadcast from their media room, that would be really something. Yeah. I just want the jacket.
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I just think the jackets are, are sick, even though I'd probably get eggs thrown at me if I wore it, but it's a cool jacket. Um- I think eggs would be the least that happens to you. [laughs] Right. Um,
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so yeah, I mean, if they, look, if they, if they pursue cannabis reform, I will, I will wear the jacket proudly. Um, I will not actually. No, on second thought. Um,
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uh, my loser this week, and again, this is a very simple loser, is, uh, Smart Approaches to Marijuana. Um, I think, you know, they fought the good fight in the hearing.
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I think, you know, from all intents and purposes, it did not go very well for them. Um, and I do think that, you know, cannabis policy does need real credible opposition.
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Like, there are risks associated with legalization and, and good policy. You know, captures the upsides and minimizes the benefits. And, uh, that opposition is no longer Smart Approaches to Marijuana.
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And I think one thing, at least I'm, I'm a little bit heartened by in the hearing, was that, um, states brought other credible medical professionals who have, you know, much more, who may be against cannabis reform, but have much more data-driven nuanced views.
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And so, um, I hope we can have a real discussion with them and not continue to have discussions with organizations like Smart Approaches to Marijuana, which are polemicists disguised as advocacy groups.
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So that's my loser for the week. I like it. Wow. We're gonna clip that. [laughs] Um, Anna Ray, winners, losers? Ooh, um, I'll, I'll bring it home to my local hometown of San Francisco for a winner.
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Uh, Amsterdam style cafes that intro- that introduce like food, beverage, and music with cannabis are finally going to be allowed here. And this is so many years after legalization.
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Uh, the board of supervisors finally is, is allowing this coming together of, um, hospitality and entertainment with cannabis. And, um, that is hopefully a win.
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A lot of people are saying that, um, that this will bring some new life into the dispensaries and give them some new revenue streams. But ultimately I think it's about the culture.
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In San Francisco, you know, people think about Haight Street and the Summer of Love, and Grateful Dead, and Janis Joplin, and everything that happened here in the '60s and '70s.
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And so I'm just excited to get to have music and weed all together in one place. Um, so yeah. That seems more likely we could do a show from there than the DEA Museum. Yeah, [laughs] totally.
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[laughs] Um, and, and my other winner I mentioned is this PAC that has just raked in a whole bunch of cash, um, in the last month.
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And, um, I think on the other side of that is, um, is that the losers are, are all of these cannabis companies that are just working so hard, but they don't have enough money to be thrown at the government right now, so they just don't have a say in politics.
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That's, that's, that's Citizens United right there. Yeah. [laughs] Um- Right... I like it. Uh, I have a winner and a loser. My winner is actually the same as last week.
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Um, and that is, uh, Melissa Henry [laughs] from, uh, Kiva Confections. We had her on this week to talk about her Conan adventure. Uh, it was a great conversation.
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Like really, we got really granular about how she heard it was being talked about, exactly what they did internally, how they actually executed by getting to, um, uh, Sona on the show.
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Uh, but it was also interesting 'cause she happens to live right there, Melissa does.
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So the parking lot where apparently Conan O'Brien's show is, where you park, is actually the same parking lot as where her kids go to the dentist. So there was some funny, some funny things happening.
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So kudos to Melissa and her team, uh, for that. Uh, I've gotta redo that winner loser just to be self-promotional about something we actually did on Cultivate. [laughs] You can watch that.
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It's got a lot of views, so check out that conversation. My loser is Idaho legislators, which might be a standing loser if that's the case.
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So there was a petition to legalize cannabis, like a petition, signature petition. The signatures did not pass.
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They were like 12,000 short, and it almost didn't matter because simultaneously the legislature there, I don't even know if there's a Democrat in the legislature in Idaho, I honestly have no idea, um, passed a, passed a law that suggested that only be- the legislature can only legalize cannabis in any way, any way, um, in any way.
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So they're the losers. Don't at me Idaho legislators on Twitter. I'm sure they watch this religiously. So, uh, that's my loser of the week. Uh, my winner of the week is Melissa again, and, um, and all of you.
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You guys are both winners. You, you're a winner too, Jay. I w- Yeah... I was gonna say that actually. [laughs] No you weren't. Number one. No you weren't. [laughs] You're doing such a good job.
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I will do a tease here for the, I don't know, several dozen people watching now, but couple hundred that will watch along the line.
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Jeremy and I next week, a little teaser, we're launching what we're calling Cultivated Community. It'll be very easy to join.
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It'll be an ongoing feed, uh, featuring sort of things we find during the day, other conversations we wanna have. You'll be able to find it on our website. If you get our newsletter, you'll get prompted to go join it.
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It'll be super fun. Anna Ray, you're gonna get the first invite, um, uh, right after this show. And, um, yeah, we will see everybody there, but that's a teaser 'cause it's not officially launched yet.
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But if you actually go to cultivated.news/community, you should be able to find it right now. Um, and we will see everybody there, and, uh, we'll see everybody next Friday. Sweet. So good to see you guys.
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Nice to see you. Thank you. Thank you everybody. That was fun. Yeah, it was fun. Find everything we do at cultivated.news. You can find Anna Ray at High Spirits wherever you get your podcasts.
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You can also find Jeremy on Twitter. He's great on Twitter. He likes to get in, uh, quite a few- Twitter doesn't exist anymore. Okay. It's not a thing. He likes to get in X fights. [laughs] Uh, so- Yeah...
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uh, you should go check him out there. Come, come battle me. Okay. [laughs] Bye.
