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Maximize your accounting career by
becoming high yield and low maintenance.
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With the Upstream Leader Podcast,
your passport to improved knowledge,
skills, and career potential.
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Stay tuned for insights, expertise,
and thought provoking discussion.
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And now here's your host, Heath Allway.
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Welcome back to the
Upstream Leader Podcast.
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I'm Heath Allway, your
host for today's episode.
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And our guest today is Ben
Decker, chairman and co CEO
of Decker Communications.
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Ben, it's great to see you again.
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Looking forward to having you on the show.
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Excited to be here.
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Thanks, Eve.
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So Ben, we'll jump right in something we
ask every guest to get the conversation
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started is what has really made
you the leader that you are today?
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That
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question can easily become a self
proclaiming like self pat on the back.
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So I'm a little worried about how
to answer that as one of our values
of our company is humble confidence.
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And so it doesn't feel very humble to
tell you why I think I'm the leader I am,
but I'll turn it into how I think I'm the
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person I am, which ties into leadership,
which ties into communication, of course.
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But growing up, my mom passed away
when I was young and I had a lot of
independence and I, the way I grew up
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was pretty close with my father and we
ended up going into business together
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after I had a different career, but that
allowed me for discernment, judgment.
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trusting my own judgment and also
learning the power of communications,
which ties into education, influencing
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others, bringing people along,
getting them to want to do something
versus have to do something.
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And luckily that's the
profession that I'm in.
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And so I think that has
a lot to do with it.
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With care.
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When we hire people, I
always ask, just care.
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All I ask is that you care more.
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And so that's luckily pretty innate in
me of caring for clients, thinking about
them, what's coming up, what's going on.
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Is it going well?
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What can we do?
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And so I think that
ties into a leadership.
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I don't know if it's servant leadership,
but there's more of a care there.
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Yeah, and Ben, I think in most cases,
people can see if you truly care or
if it's a, you know, a fake caring.
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So, Ben, let me ask you
this on your comment there.
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You said that you and your father were
close and Went into business together.
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I was reading your bio this morning
and there was a comment in there
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about how you were immersed into
the, Decker method pretty early on.
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And it was something along the
lines of your videotapes before
your junior high book reports.
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I don't know if those were
presentations or what that may be.
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How did that influence
what you're doing today?
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Or did it even influence
what you're doing today?
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Well, it did.
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So it becomes part of your DNA.
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But if you think about
kids today, Snapchat.
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Instagram, them seeing
themselves so much on video.
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I actually think it's a good thing.
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It hasn't happened like
this in generations past.
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So in my generation X, you don't
normally see yourself on video.
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I did grow up seeing myself
on video, realizing what I'm
doing, the experience I create.
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So it was helpful just to know what my
face is doing, what my hands are doing.
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And I think Kids are much more
aware of what they're doing and
comfortable seeing themselves.
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I mean, I have three teenage boys and
the Snapchat and the pictures that taking
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of themselves, even if they're looking
away, just quit sending these pictures.
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It is very helpful to be
aware of what you're doing.
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And that's really what we do as a company.
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We help people become more aware.
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And so going back to that middle
school of myself, yeah, that had
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a huge impact on me and how I see
myself and how I want to come across.
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Very good, Ben.
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Well, with that, you kind of got
into this a little bit about what you
do, but just to give our listeners
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a little bit of a foundation for the
work that you do, and I think it's
very important work that you're doing.
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Tell us a little bit about Decker, you
know, and what you're doing to help
people from that communication standpoint.
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Sure.
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It's, uh, from CEO to sales, we are
a firm based out of San Francisco,
but we're really nationwide.
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We have about 40 people that travel
the country and the world working with
anywhere from fortune 500, fortune
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10 to startups, entrepreneurs, and
helping them communicate better.
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And so my airplane pitches, we help people
and what they say and how they say it.
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And so when I describe that to
people on a plane, oftentimes
they'll say, shoot, I could use that.
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To which I say, we all can.
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And it's, one of these things that you
can always get better in communications.
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And so we help people become
aware of how they come across.
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We use a lot of video feedback,
put people on video and then
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get them in an environment where
they can get private coaching.
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Ideally, and be told the good,
the bad, the ugly of what they're
doing with ways of getting better.
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Whether it be eye communication,
voice, smile, hands, doesn't matter.
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But then what you say, the content,
we introduce a way to put together
thoughts, ideas, keynotes, all hands.
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Just a message with the
ideal that it's influential.
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People know why they're listening,
people know what it is you want them
to do, and that's A big challenge when,
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I mean, you and I work with a lot of
financial advisors, accountants, CPA
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firms, you can get into informing and
just sharing numbers and information.
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So much of our world at Decker is
really trying to have people think
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differently about their content and
do where do you want them to go?
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And audiences want that.
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They want to know what they should do.
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And so then it's about putting it in a
way that can get them to nod their head.
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That there's a touch of emotion
in the message versus just
pure data, facts, figures.
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Well, Ben, I know people can't see us on
video, but when you said getting people
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to nod their head, I saw myself just
nodding my head as you were talking.
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So maybe after the episode, we'll wait
and you can critique me afterward.
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We won't do that during the show,
but Well, we'll wait till afterwards.
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So, Ben, with what you do and the
audience you just described, when you
talk about communication, how important
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is that in someone's leadership journey
and the success of their own career?
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Well, you can argue
it's almost everything.
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There's a Bruce Barton quote
that I quote oftentimes in the
beginning of speeches or programs.
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And I'll paraphrase it, but basically
it says, it doesn't matter how much
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you know from all that I've seen
from doers, saints, writers combined.
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One thing is certain.
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Talkers have always ruled.
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They will continue to rule.
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Smart thing is to join them.
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Now I've shared that quote with hundreds
of people and there are people that get
offended with that quote, meaning people
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that are experts in their fields, MBA,
PhD. People that are so smart and it's not
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dismissing knowledge, but it's basically
using that knowledge to open up doors.
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You'll have a low ceiling.
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If you can't communicate well, you
can have the best idea, the best
invention, best innovation possible.
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But if you can't communicate it well.
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It's going to have a low ceiling.
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That's the point.
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So we have to communicate well to get
people to buy in, to get people to want
you to get people to take that idea
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and run with it, same thing with large
corporations, a CEO says a message.
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And the problem is it doesn't
go through the organization.
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People don't take it and communicate
it well to the front line.
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And so that's a lot of work we
do just to make sure our message
permeates, goes through, is absorbed.
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People get it.
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People want to, so you could argue
it is a huge part of success of how
people come across as I'm working
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with an investor day for a fortune
500 company that they're looking at
shareholders and what matters to them.
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And right now the management percentage
is not as high as they want it to be.
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Meaning as an investor, I don't have as
much confidence in the management team
because of basically how they communicate.
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So you connect that to any
business, any industry, it ties in.
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Well, Ben, with the importance that you
just described there, why do you think so
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many organizations, so many leaders will
still say communication is a soft skill?
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Yeah, it's one of my least favorite.
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Terms.
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I usually whenever I hear it,
I battle it and I call it out
as an elephant in the room.
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Same thing with in what we do.
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People will say, oh, you do presentation
skills and it really limits how you
think about what we're talking about.
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Am I presenting to you Heath right now?
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Or to your audience.
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No, we're, you and I are talking.
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So when people say a soft skill, it
makes it as an optional, in my opinion.
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You can't help but brand it as a
nice to have, not a need to have.
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"Soft Skill." It's a mandatory skill.
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In fact, LinkedIn tied it as the number
one needed skill for hiring this year.
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Communications is the top
skill needed and wanted.
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So soft skill is a terrible branding
issue that I would hope every one of your
listeners don't think of it that way.
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And I think of it as a higher,
more critical skill, but soft skill
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treats it like a, uh, it'd be good
to have, but not have to have.
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And Ben, I think the other side of
that is not just from a professional
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standpoint, but every aspect of your
life, communication plays a key role in.
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Coaching your kids sports team or how you
communicate and connect with your friends.
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And so Ben, I'm curious.
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Well, one, I'm actually glad you answered
it that way because so many times I
said this is a core leadership skill.
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It is a core people skill that
we all should focus on and
work at getting better at.
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I'm going to share some stats
with you and I'm curious to
see how you respond to this.
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But I shared in some of our presentations
when we're talking about being an advisor
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and truly listening to connect with
people and we see so many distractions.
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So some stats all throughout,
say we spend over three hours on
average on our cell phones a day.
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Then maybe we get 50 to
75 to 100 emails a day.
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Maybe we spend, you know,
that three and a half hours.
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We check our phone over 300 times a day.
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How is all the distractions or the things
that we are constantly bombarded with?
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How does that impact our listening
skills and effective communication?
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Well, some people say there's
no such thing as multitasking.
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So, so think of it that way
of, can I do this and that?
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And the idea of being present
and showing your presence.
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I mean, a lot of the coaching
we do, we remind people and the
communicators that it's not about you.
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It's about them, the
audience, your listener.
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So how do you focus on them?
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We give an example in our programs
where I communicate, let's just
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talk about eye communication
and you bring up cell phones.
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If we pair people up, A and B. And
A, talk to B about your morning,
doesn't matter what you say.
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And so we have B look at A
while they are listening.
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And then we yell and say, B
look away, A keep talking.
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And so B's looking away.
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And it's very distracting.
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And bottom line, we switch it around and
we just talk about how does that feel?
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And it doesn't feel good, it feels rude.
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And then we ask how
often does that happen?
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So to your point around distractions, if
I'm at a cocktail party with you Heath,
and I want to see Joe, Sue, or Bob, But
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I'm here with Heath and my eyes are going
over there and looking over at them,
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even though you and I have a drinking
hand and we're talking to each other.
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Do you feel like I'm there with you?
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And the answer is no, and that's
because of a distraction, whether
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it be a cell phone or a person
and what I'm doing with my eyes.
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I need you to feel like I'm
entirely there with you.
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That goes into the behaviors.
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That goes into tuning other things
out, and I'm focused on you.
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So that's purely eye communication.
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That takes intentionality.
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Because most people don't
realize what they're doing.
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They have no idea what
they do with their eyes.
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It's just that these things are habits.
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That's what we're dealing with.
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Codified habits to anyone that's You know,
I could argue by your teenage years, you
become pretty codified in your habits.
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We deal with people from the 30 to
50 range, usually 30 to 60 range,
and these are really codified habits.
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So you've got to change your habits
of your voice, your eyes, your smile,
what you do with your hands, how you
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stand to show your presence, to show
care, to show your focus entirely
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on your audience, whether it's
one on one as I'm looking at this.
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Camera to you.
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Or if there's 100 people, what I do
with my eyes and how I hold them and
look at them versus look at the ground.
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Look at the ceiling.
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It looks like I'm not really present.
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I'm distracted, etcetera.
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So Ben, you mentioned the habits
and I actually had a car ride.
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We were going to help a friend
pick up something over the weekend.
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And he was just back from vacation, he
and his two kids and his wife, they went
on a cruise, and he said they did not get
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the internet package, so they couldn't
use their cell phones, they couldn't
use any of the technology, and he said
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it was alarming, he said it was really
good, I'm glad we did that, but he said
it was alarming the first couple of days
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of How much I caught myself trying to
look at my phone or do something on my
phone just out of natural habits So if
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we know that those habits are there,
how do we start to break that habit?
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How do we get more?
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You know more intentional about being
present to show that we do care and that
we are trying to connect with someone
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Any thoughts on how you overcome those
habits that in a lot of ways, Ben,
I would say maybe are blind spots.
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Maybe we don't even realize
that we're doing it at times.
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I think that's accurate.
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And I think it just takes intentionality.
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I, spoke with, um, a leader
yesterday and I was asking her.
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How she's doing working on
the things we're working on.
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And she goes, well, I'm
not really working on it.
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I'm fairly overwhelmed.
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I'm back to back to back So when I have
an all team with thousands of my team, I
leave one meeting and go right into it.
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And I challenged her on it.
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I said, you got to change your schedule.
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You got to work with your admin to
add buffer to add margin so that
you don't go straight from that.
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You got to get your head right.
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00:14:01,055 --> 00:14:06,195
So he's, I would tie that into what you're
describing as boundaries and setting up.
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00:14:06,784 --> 00:14:08,975
I mean, I put up screen time
for my three teenage boys.
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I don't want them always looking
at their phone, so I limit them
because it's become a habit.
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They just grab it and look
at it because it's a habit.
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But if they are limited,
they'll do it less.
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00:14:20,045 --> 00:14:23,644
And so I'm just trying to veer
that just like you and I. We may
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want to, for example, on this
podcast, I turned off my phone.
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I know you don't want buzzing.
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00:14:29,214 --> 00:14:33,145
I know you don't want distractions,
but I did that to be entirely present.
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00:14:33,795 --> 00:14:36,225
That's an intentionality
of what I'm doing.
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So I'm right here during this podcast.
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There's little things we can do,
but that takes intentionality.
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Well, Ben, something you said
a minute ago, too, I want
to go back to for a second.
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You said in communication, we
have to remember it's about them.
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It's not about us.
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And so I'm going to put
myself out there a little bit.
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I hope I'm not the only person that's ever
went through this before, but sometimes.
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You know, even with self awareness, I
go back to networking situations and
sometimes in those networking situations
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may be a little more nervous or a little
more angst in those type of settings.
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00:15:08,049 --> 00:15:16,340
And whenever you meet someone new and all
of a sudden, if those nerves are elevated,
I've been guilty of all of a sudden start
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00:15:16,340 --> 00:15:19,450
talking about everything that we do at
upstream or whenever I was at a firm.
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00:15:19,450 --> 00:15:21,360
It's, you know, someone
would say, what do you do?
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00:15:21,390 --> 00:15:23,920
It was all about our services
and a number of offices.
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00:15:24,430 --> 00:15:29,930
You know, all the things about me and
I was not doing that intentionally
Ben, but then I realized when
241
00:15:29,959 --> 00:15:34,090
someone would walk away I didn't even
remember their name half the time.
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00:15:34,399 --> 00:15:40,670
I was so in the moment of meeting someone
It was all about me because that's what
I was comfortable talking about And
243
00:15:40,670 --> 00:15:45,920
then I couldn't even remember their name
chances are they probably walked away They
probably didn't remember my name and I've
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00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,140
had to learn how to shift that so Ben I
guess one is that natural in networking
245
00:15:50,140 --> 00:15:54,495
settings of People are maybe a little more
uncomfortable in those type of settings.
246
00:15:55,265 --> 00:15:57,175
It's not just those settings.
247
00:15:57,195 --> 00:15:59,035
It's actually a lot of
corporate environments.
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00:15:59,055 --> 00:16:04,575
We end up talking about ourselves,
our thing, our widget, our company,
our organization, our industry.
249
00:16:04,825 --> 00:16:06,805
We talk about ourselves
because it's what we know.
250
00:16:07,634 --> 00:16:11,135
There's a great story that I sometimes
reference, a Dale Carnegie story.
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00:16:11,865 --> 00:16:15,365
You know, he wrote one of the
great bestsellers of How to Win.
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00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:21,579
Uh, over people with influence, which
I think I just butchered the name,
but you know what I'm talking about,
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00:16:22,110 --> 00:16:27,200
but he told the story of when he's
at one of his trainings and he went
to the back and the woman didn't
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00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:32,990
know who he was and he basically just
asked her questions for 20 minutes.
255
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,660
And he didn't say more than five words.
256
00:16:36,780 --> 00:16:37,729
He just asked questions.
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00:16:38,479 --> 00:16:42,530
At the end, when he had to go, she said,
you are an amazing conversationalist.
258
00:16:43,130 --> 00:16:44,130
Thank you for this time.
259
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:45,580
And he didn't say anything.
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00:16:46,139 --> 00:16:51,739
And my point and bring up to you,
Heath, is the idea of curiosity, the
idea of asking questions, the idea
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00:16:51,739 --> 00:16:56,079
of gamifying it, of sometimes in
our programs, we'll play hot potato,
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00:16:56,639 --> 00:16:59,749
make a challenge to find out as much
as possible about the other person.
263
00:17:00,125 --> 00:17:02,005
And we could talk about
like high school career.
264
00:17:02,605 --> 00:17:03,525
Tell me about your high school.
265
00:17:03,905 --> 00:17:04,605
Where'd you go?
266
00:17:04,865 --> 00:17:05,504
Tell me more.
267
00:17:05,565 --> 00:17:06,275
Did you play sports?
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00:17:06,275 --> 00:17:11,714
It's like trying to find out about
the other person versus talking about
yourself, because then you'll turn around.
269
00:17:11,714 --> 00:17:12,065
Oh, really?
270
00:17:12,065 --> 00:17:14,354
Where did you go to high
school and what did you play?
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00:17:14,655 --> 00:17:15,325
And I'll answer it.
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00:17:15,325 --> 00:17:17,365
But then I got turned
around to show up curiosity.
273
00:17:17,884 --> 00:17:20,584
So in the networking
environments, stay curious.
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00:17:21,725 --> 00:17:22,475
Gamify it.
275
00:17:22,805 --> 00:17:26,165
Challenge yourself to, to figure
out ways to remember names.
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00:17:26,275 --> 00:17:27,285
That is a great skill.
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00:17:27,905 --> 00:17:28,185
Heath.
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00:17:29,375 --> 00:17:30,835
How I remember the name Heath.
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00:17:31,345 --> 00:17:35,764
So for me, I'm a big fan of
Chip and Dan Heath, Brothers.
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00:17:35,825 --> 00:17:37,565
So that helped me remember Heath.
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00:17:37,645 --> 00:17:40,355
Like literally, When I first
met you, that's what I did.
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00:17:40,705 --> 00:17:42,405
Find ways to remember names.
283
00:17:42,455 --> 00:17:43,615
But that's gamifying it.
284
00:17:44,465 --> 00:17:49,835
So Ben, when you say gamifying in
that, you know, being inquisitive
and constantly asking questions.
285
00:17:50,355 --> 00:17:52,544
Yeah, I go back and I look at my kids.
286
00:17:52,544 --> 00:17:55,464
I have a six year old and 11 year old
and they are always asking questions.
287
00:17:55,925 --> 00:17:58,635
And then as we get older and we
feel like we have to be an expert
288
00:17:58,635 --> 00:18:01,945
or know everything, what's,
where do we lose that in life?
289
00:18:01,945 --> 00:18:02,805
And what drives that?
290
00:18:02,805 --> 00:18:06,765
Because I feel like at a certain
stage in the career, we start
to lose that power of questions.
291
00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:09,149
I started feeling like we
have to have the answers.
292
00:18:09,610 --> 00:18:12,709
Is that something you see commonly
with the people that you work with?
293
00:18:13,710 --> 00:18:14,470
I suppose so.
294
00:18:14,470 --> 00:18:22,639
I don't know if or where or how we lose
curiosity or interest in others because
there are many people that have a great
295
00:18:22,639 --> 00:18:26,590
amount of curiosity, great amount of
empathy, and it's some of it's innate.
296
00:18:26,679 --> 00:18:30,649
The rest of it, you and I have to
be intentional to increase or grow.
297
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:36,649
There's no doubt about that, but
I'll tie affect to curiosity because.
298
00:18:37,170 --> 00:18:40,650
Affect is a physical expression of
psychological or emotional energy.
299
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,020
And as kids, we let it out.
300
00:18:42,450 --> 00:18:43,720
You know, Dad, give me some food.
301
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:44,310
I'm hungry.
302
00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:46,460
And kids are good at
getting what they want.
303
00:18:47,229 --> 00:18:54,199
As we become teenagers, we lose
affect, meaning we get, call it peer
pressure, call it puberty, call it life
304
00:18:54,199 --> 00:18:59,519
is getting real, grades are getting
real, becoming subject matter experts,
and we get a little more held in.
305
00:19:00,229 --> 00:19:05,240
And so we share this in our
coaching because as we get
into that decision making.
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00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:09,770
We get really tight and a lot of the work
we do at Decker is trying to loosen people
307
00:19:09,770 --> 00:19:13,870
up and get them to speak with passion
and voice and lean into the audience.
308
00:19:13,940 --> 00:19:19,400
And that's really focused on affect
to let go of the content because
we focus so much on the content.
309
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,790
And we forget about the experience.
310
00:19:23,290 --> 00:19:25,560
I think there's a little bit
of tie in with curiosity.
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00:19:25,970 --> 00:19:32,020
Meaning, we get so focused on us and
what we do, and we lose sight of them.
312
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,500
Of Heath, where he lives,
what he does, tell me more.
313
00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:37,459
Because we get focused on what we do.
314
00:19:37,810 --> 00:19:40,680
I think there's a little bit of
a tie in with how we grow up.
315
00:19:41,149 --> 00:19:44,534
In fact, Now that I think
about it, there's a Ted Club.
316
00:19:44,534 --> 00:19:49,525
Sir Ken Robinson talked about, you
know, kids are born with creativity
317
00:19:49,935 --> 00:19:53,935
and curiosity, and as they age,
we kind of kill it out of them.
318
00:19:54,355 --> 00:19:58,055
And that's what we got to look into
changing with our education systems.
319
00:19:58,055 --> 00:19:59,325
It's a fantastic Ted Club.
320
00:19:59,995 --> 00:20:01,395
Yeah, I love that.
321
00:20:01,395 --> 00:20:07,875
And as you're talking, I think
sometimes my own struggle is
we live in a society of busy.
322
00:20:08,495 --> 00:20:12,055
The more you have going on, maybe you feel
like it's more, you're more important.
323
00:20:12,065 --> 00:20:17,864
But sometimes in that busy environment,
we missed the time to take the extra
five minutes and ask those questions.
324
00:20:17,865 --> 00:20:18,724
How was your weekend?
325
00:20:19,064 --> 00:20:20,595
Tell me about your high school.
326
00:20:20,845 --> 00:20:24,585
Tell me, you know, all those type
think sometimes we miss out on that.
327
00:20:24,985 --> 00:20:28,514
Truly that opportunity to
connect with people and well, and
328
00:20:28,514 --> 00:20:31,605
he's especially, in zoom.
329
00:20:31,745 --> 00:20:38,485
Like you think about the last few
years through any video interaction,
we just go right into business.
330
00:20:39,195 --> 00:20:45,894
Now, if you're in an office, there's
something about clothing or smell
or, um, the way the room is set
331
00:20:45,895 --> 00:20:49,725
up that we talk about something
in a zoom, we dive right into it.
332
00:20:50,269 --> 00:20:56,009
In a team's meeting in a Google meet,
whatever video platform you use, and
we're working with a lot of clients.
333
00:20:56,379 --> 00:20:57,350
How do you fix that?
334
00:20:57,719 --> 00:21:01,100
Because we lose the connection piece
of I don't even know how he stays.
335
00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:03,010
We just dove into the
process in the system.
336
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:06,219
So that's something you really
got to be intentional about.
337
00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:09,049
That is an easy fix of the
first couple of minutes.
338
00:21:09,049 --> 00:21:10,675
Just a. How is everyone's day?
339
00:21:10,685 --> 00:21:11,215
How are we doing?
340
00:21:11,455 --> 00:21:13,145
Like, slow down and then dive into it.
341
00:21:13,335 --> 00:21:16,415
Sorry, I interrupted you, but that's
an important piece tied into video.
342
00:21:16,505 --> 00:21:17,855
No, you're fine, Ben.
343
00:21:18,325 --> 00:21:24,615
So, in a way, kind of almost planning
unplanned time when we have those
interactions to make that connection.
344
00:21:25,304 --> 00:21:27,034
Yeah, back to intentionality.
345
00:21:27,035 --> 00:21:28,705
To have those kind of conversations.
346
00:21:29,125 --> 00:21:30,044
I like that.
347
00:21:30,675 --> 00:21:36,685
So, Ben, one thing I'll go back to,
we talked about those environments
of, you know, networking or
348
00:21:36,685 --> 00:21:39,784
whatever may be, whenever maybe
the nerves are a little high.
349
00:21:40,174 --> 00:21:46,654
And I, Ben, I don't have scientific
data to support this, but what I
can say is, in the public accounting
350
00:21:46,654 --> 00:21:51,125
profession, there are definitely more self
proclaimed introverts than extroverts.
351
00:21:51,790 --> 00:21:52,720
Without a doubt.
352
00:21:53,139 --> 00:21:59,780
And I think sometimes when that word's
used around business development or
networking, it's used as a negative.
353
00:21:59,780 --> 00:22:07,980
So do you, see the being an introvert
is truly a negative when it comes to
communication and connection with people?
354
00:22:09,229 --> 00:22:11,030
Well, no,
355
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:16,250
my worry about the word introvert
is to many, not all, but to many,
356
00:22:16,250 --> 00:22:20,109
it can become a scapegoat and
an excuse I don't do well there.
357
00:22:20,109 --> 00:22:22,619
Cause I'm an introvert and
we use it as a scapegoat.
358
00:22:23,410 --> 00:22:24,120
And so.
359
00:22:24,695 --> 00:22:29,915
In a lot of the work that we do, just
to put it as plain and simple, what I'm
360
00:22:29,915 --> 00:22:33,885
trying to do with any executive is to
pull out the backyard barbecue person.
361
00:22:34,815 --> 00:22:38,264
Now that's, a term I use, but it's
like if you think about, you have a
362
00:22:38,275 --> 00:22:41,985
drink in your hand, you're talking to
friends, are you an introvert there?
363
00:22:42,420 --> 00:22:45,370
And to most people, no, I speak freely.
364
00:22:45,770 --> 00:22:46,430
I'm excited.
365
00:22:46,430 --> 00:22:47,010
I smile.
366
00:22:47,010 --> 00:22:47,860
I tell stories.
367
00:22:48,330 --> 00:22:53,170
So why can't we have that person be
in a conference room, in a boardroom?
368
00:22:53,230 --> 00:22:56,909
And so that's at the gist, at the
bottom line of what I'm trying to do.
369
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:57,919
We have Decker.
370
00:22:58,649 --> 00:22:59,200
That's it.
371
00:22:59,909 --> 00:23:07,920
Now here's a real life example, working
with a leader yesterday, who's runs
multi thousand people organization.
372
00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:10,200
She didn't do great in
an all team meeting.
373
00:23:11,140 --> 00:23:12,109
She doesn't like it.
374
00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:13,489
She's just trying to get through it.
375
00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:15,680
But she likes board meetings.
376
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,120
I said, explain that to me.
377
00:23:17,170 --> 00:23:19,480
Cause it's usually the
opposite for most people.
378
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,979
I don't like board meetings because
they're going to talk to me and they're
looking to look for something wrong.
379
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,469
She goes, cause I know my business and
they just want to talk to business.
380
00:23:27,779 --> 00:23:28,580
And I'm an introvert.
381
00:23:29,180 --> 00:23:30,870
So I. I really pushed her.
382
00:23:30,870 --> 00:23:34,550
I said, let's think about the introvert,
the way you are back here at barbecue.
383
00:23:34,550 --> 00:23:35,110
Are you this way?
384
00:23:35,110 --> 00:23:40,550
She goes, yeah, I'm like, so let's just
try to be that way for your all team
for all these moments that you show
385
00:23:40,550 --> 00:23:47,530
up because that's a big aha to many
people, whether you're an accountant,
CEO, frontline, it doesn't matter if you
386
00:23:47,530 --> 00:23:54,980
think about how you show up every time
and make it consistent because the big
thing is take away an on off switch.
387
00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:58,870
When I'm at a networking
event, I gotta turn it on.
388
00:23:58,990 --> 00:24:02,730
Now, to an introvert, that's very
tiring and cumbersome and challenging.
389
00:24:03,290 --> 00:24:05,850
So what if we didn't have to turn
it on, but we just stayed curious?
390
00:24:06,129 --> 00:24:06,750
We asked questions.
391
00:24:06,750 --> 00:24:09,530
And who cares about us, but
let's find out about them.
392
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:11,029
That's gamifying.
393
00:24:11,090 --> 00:24:14,429
That's changing the mindset
of, it's no longer about you.
394
00:24:14,954 --> 00:24:17,684
They ask you a question, like at
a backyard barbecue, you're going
395
00:24:17,684 --> 00:24:19,934
to answer it, but you're also
going to turn around to them.
396
00:24:20,084 --> 00:24:25,014
So I get worried that it gets used as
a scapegoat and an excuse too much.
397
00:24:25,385 --> 00:24:31,334
I get that we have to find our
energy in different places, but be
careful of using it as that excuse.
398
00:24:32,284 --> 00:24:38,774
So Ben, let's say a scenario where maybe
someone is more introverted and they meet
someone that's maybe more extroverted.
399
00:24:39,435 --> 00:24:45,530
Do you have any guidance on like those
different kind of personality traits
and what people can do to Effectively
400
00:24:45,530 --> 00:24:48,800
communicate with someone that may have a
different personality than what they do.
401
00:24:49,310 --> 00:24:52,460
Yeah, and there are so
many assessment tools.
402
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,809
Disk, Genius from a Lencioni table group.
403
00:24:56,820 --> 00:25:02,289
They have a great widget approach
of trying to figure out your
traits and what you're good at.
404
00:25:02,489 --> 00:25:05,000
And there's, you know, half a dozen.
405
00:25:06,139 --> 00:25:07,810
It's good to know who they are.
406
00:25:07,945 --> 00:25:13,825
I mean, even within teams to
know what they like, how they
operate and adjusting accordingly.
407
00:25:14,925 --> 00:25:19,124
But shoot, I've, worked with clients
that do a total dissection of an audience
408
00:25:20,004 --> 00:25:24,095
of a leader as they look to sell and
like literally break down everything.
409
00:25:24,514 --> 00:25:26,335
And it makes you adjust too much.
410
00:25:27,195 --> 00:25:32,835
But just knowing that if they're an
introvert, they may not want to be super.
411
00:25:33,435 --> 00:25:39,284
Gregarious or big and talk and so
just you may want to lower it down
a little bit based on them again,
412
00:25:39,605 --> 00:25:43,074
know your audience and that's
critical as you create messages.
413
00:25:43,514 --> 00:25:47,694
That's 1 thing that people don't do well
enough is really dissect their audience.
414
00:25:47,695 --> 00:25:49,034
Really know them well enough.
415
00:25:49,454 --> 00:25:53,534
We can always do more and
just adjust to them, but.
416
00:25:54,755 --> 00:26:00,615
in a network setting, you can
overwhelm someone for sure of
just being too big, too much.
417
00:26:01,754 --> 00:26:03,305
You don't want to not be yourself.
418
00:26:03,524 --> 00:26:07,475
And that's a big thing where a
lot of people think we're trying
to create robots that decorate.
419
00:26:07,784 --> 00:26:09,664
No, just bring out your personal self.
420
00:26:10,065 --> 00:26:11,245
Adjust it accordingly.
421
00:26:11,245 --> 00:26:13,524
So there's times you've got to turn
up and turn down different things.
422
00:26:14,584 --> 00:26:19,935
And Ben, in those, so With what you
just said there and thinking about,
you know, some of our conversation
423
00:26:20,445 --> 00:26:26,004
say we have someone that maybe feels
like they're an introvert or I'll even
probably take it a step further and
424
00:26:26,004 --> 00:26:33,064
say, maybe they struggle with self doubt
or what we call the imposter syndrome
of my gosh, if I'm talking to someone
425
00:26:33,064 --> 00:26:37,605
that has 25 more years of experience
than I do, how can I bring value?
426
00:26:37,615 --> 00:26:40,225
So they just, they, won't speak
up or they'll hold in their
427
00:26:40,225 --> 00:26:44,325
thoughts or maybe been in another
scenario, similar, but different.
428
00:26:44,939 --> 00:26:52,680
You mentioned in a meeting with a team and
maybe they're only a couple of years into
their career and everyone else in the room
429
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:58,379
is 2025 years in and so they feel like,
gosh, what value can I bring to this?
430
00:26:58,389 --> 00:27:01,280
So they will not communicate
or they'll just hold it in.
431
00:27:01,729 --> 00:27:03,924
What advice do you have
for someone that maybe?
432
00:27:04,784 --> 00:27:09,794
Feeling that self doubt and so they're
holding back on some of their thoughts
or some of the value that they
433
00:27:09,794 --> 00:27:12,824
could bring, you know, in that team
setting or to others that they meet,
434
00:27:13,574 --> 00:27:16,905
you know, the interesting thing is self
doubt and imposter syndrome happens to
435
00:27:16,905 --> 00:27:20,995
almost everybody and you don't realize
that you just assume it's just you.
436
00:27:21,485 --> 00:27:26,114
I'm working with a leader right now
working on a commencement speech and
she's going to address self doubt.
437
00:27:26,830 --> 00:27:33,239
Imposter syndrome, and she's a woman
that runs a huge organization that's
fairly well known just to make it
438
00:27:33,239 --> 00:27:40,669
more real part of the challenges that
we can forget the value of bring,
uh, I'll tie it into a quick story.
439
00:27:41,209 --> 00:27:48,169
Um, you know, I'm almost 50 years old
when I did my first one on one coaching
and what I do was about 20 years ago with
440
00:27:48,169 --> 00:27:53,860
a gentleman from, um, I can say Cisco
systems ran a huge part of the business.
441
00:27:54,514 --> 00:27:56,645
And the person was in their fifties.
442
00:27:56,725 --> 00:27:57,775
I was very intimidated.
443
00:27:57,775 --> 00:27:58,875
I had a lot of self doubt.
444
00:27:58,875 --> 00:28:04,245
They had every degree, like literally
Princeton, Columbia, Harvard, and one
445
00:28:04,245 --> 00:28:09,495
other Ivy league, no joke, whether it be
a JD, their law degree, MBA, et cetera.
446
00:28:09,675 --> 00:28:10,285
Master's.
447
00:28:10,865 --> 00:28:11,875
I was very intimidated.
448
00:28:11,875 --> 00:28:12,825
I had a lot of self doubt.
449
00:28:12,855 --> 00:28:14,304
Who am I to work with this person?
450
00:28:15,355 --> 00:28:18,665
Bottom line, they weren't
a great communicator and I
brought value to that person.
451
00:28:19,004 --> 00:28:21,945
And the boss said, you
transform this person.
452
00:28:21,955 --> 00:28:22,665
Oh my gosh.
453
00:28:23,284 --> 00:28:25,634
Now that reminded me of the value.
454
00:28:25,925 --> 00:28:30,825
Why are we can bring just by helping
them become more aware of what
they're doing and ways to fix it.
455
00:28:31,565 --> 00:28:34,155
We can forget a certain
value that we bring.
456
00:28:34,894 --> 00:28:40,225
So whether it be other people remind
you, whether it be finding your lane,
457
00:28:40,735 --> 00:28:43,965
whether it be realizing the gaps and
that goes back to listener focused.
458
00:28:43,965 --> 00:28:47,615
When you stay listener focused and
you realize, Oh, they don't have this.
459
00:28:47,664 --> 00:28:48,844
Oh, they need this.
460
00:28:49,554 --> 00:28:50,735
They don't realize.
461
00:28:51,230 --> 00:28:56,330
That they don't have, whatever
it is, that gives you confidence
that helps address the doubt.
462
00:28:57,100 --> 00:28:59,230
And then it goes into
how you communicate it.
463
00:29:00,110 --> 00:29:03,650
My favorite tip in communications is
audience only gets what you give them.
464
00:29:04,190 --> 00:29:07,129
And I'll say it again, audience
only gets what you give them.
465
00:29:07,790 --> 00:29:09,639
So he's tied that in a couple of ways.
466
00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:11,710
What if I got one hour
of sleep last night?
467
00:29:11,939 --> 00:29:13,770
What if I don't want to be
here on this podcast with you?
468
00:29:13,940 --> 00:29:15,210
Do you know, do you need to know?
469
00:29:15,210 --> 00:29:16,530
Do your listeners need to know?
470
00:29:17,170 --> 00:29:17,480
No.
471
00:29:17,935 --> 00:29:22,685
And none of that's true,
but I can disguise it with
my energy, with how I talk.
472
00:29:23,274 --> 00:29:25,824
Same thing when I finish, I might
think, shoot, that was terrible.
473
00:29:25,824 --> 00:29:26,584
I should've said this.
474
00:29:26,584 --> 00:29:27,664
I needed to do that.
475
00:29:28,534 --> 00:29:29,445
Well, do they know?
476
00:29:29,445 --> 00:29:30,965
Do any of your listeners, do you know?
477
00:29:31,274 --> 00:29:32,395
No, you don't.
478
00:29:32,735 --> 00:29:34,324
So audience only gets what you give them.
479
00:29:34,885 --> 00:29:36,535
Helps address that doubt.
480
00:29:36,895 --> 00:29:39,284
Helps address like, I lost my place.
481
00:29:39,314 --> 00:29:40,594
I don't know what I'm talking about.
482
00:29:41,435 --> 00:29:42,864
You don't need to show it.
483
00:29:42,874 --> 00:29:49,615
So I'm not just talking about just
covering, but it helps that doubt of
making sure every communication experience
484
00:29:49,985 --> 00:29:50,544
is pretty good.
485
00:29:51,205 --> 00:29:52,534
Yeah, Ben, I love that.
486
00:29:53,424 --> 00:29:54,264
I wrote that down.
487
00:29:54,264 --> 00:29:55,884
I may have to use that if you don't mind.
488
00:29:55,884 --> 00:29:57,094
At some points, I think of.
489
00:29:57,630 --> 00:30:05,070
Like in the term sales in public
accounting sometimes has a very negative
connotation to it But the way I kind
490
00:30:05,070 --> 00:30:08,720
of phrase it is if you know you bring
value to your clients And you're
491
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,465
making a difference in your client
base It's your role as an advisor.
492
00:30:12,465 --> 00:30:14,565
There are other people out there
that can benefit from that.
493
00:30:14,565 --> 00:30:16,755
And they don't know that if you
can't talk to them about it.
494
00:30:17,085 --> 00:30:22,925
So I love that thought process of
maybe sometimes we underestimate our
own value and the difference we can
495
00:30:22,925 --> 00:30:29,035
make with clients, Ben, something else
that I see a lot of in our profession.
496
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:31,900
We'll say the profession of nice.
497
00:30:32,550 --> 00:30:34,700
We, have a, you know, I'm so lucky.
498
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:36,800
We have so many great professionals.
499
00:30:37,230 --> 00:30:38,130
They truly care.
500
00:30:38,130 --> 00:30:43,270
They're truly passionate about what
they do, but sometimes struggle
to have the hard conversations.
501
00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:46,160
Maybe we're afraid we're going
to hurt someone's feelings.
502
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,619
It's on our team or maybe
a client that we work with.
503
00:30:48,629 --> 00:30:52,610
So sometimes we'll avoid
the hard conversations.
504
00:30:52,830 --> 00:30:54,920
And so in those settings, Ben.
505
00:30:55,415 --> 00:30:57,625
Sometimes emotions can be high.
506
00:30:58,115 --> 00:31:02,705
Something you shared when I had the
opportunity to hear you speak was
about the nonverbal communication.
507
00:31:03,125 --> 00:31:09,215
Can you talk a little bit about,
in those situations, how our
nonverbal, I guess, let me ask it
508
00:31:09,215 --> 00:31:13,104
this way, Ben, what percentage of
communication happens nonverbally?
509
00:31:13,295 --> 00:31:15,725
Because that, stat was
pretty impressive to me.
510
00:31:16,515 --> 00:31:19,655
Well, you know, we're coming
into a political season.
511
00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:22,160
We're going to watch debates, I think.
512
00:31:22,430 --> 00:31:23,300
Let's see if there's debates.
513
00:31:23,330 --> 00:31:25,040
But anyways, we're coming
into a political season.
514
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:31,645
Often times what happens is My friends
or people I know will ask me, Hey,
Ben, what did you think of that?
515
00:31:32,775 --> 00:31:34,995
And I turn around to them and
say, well, what did you think?
516
00:31:35,295 --> 00:31:39,204
And what I'm sharing with you, Heath
is I see the same things you see.
517
00:31:40,395 --> 00:31:43,255
The only difference is I'm
thinking, how can I fix it?
518
00:31:43,934 --> 00:31:45,355
So when you bring up non verbals.
519
00:31:46,220 --> 00:31:50,280
You and I see the same thing,
whether it be someone's too serious
and they're talking about something
520
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,920
positive, whether it be they're
giving an inconsistent message.
521
00:31:55,049 --> 00:31:59,580
So what you're bringing up is
what we talked about with the
three V's, verbal, vocal, visual.
522
00:31:59,690 --> 00:32:01,980
It's really everything happening
in a communication experience.
523
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,670
Here we are on a video
call, so you can see me.
524
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:06,299
So there's visual included.
525
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:10,500
So I would say a video call and in
person tie into all three of those.
526
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:11,740
They're all happening.
527
00:32:12,110 --> 00:32:13,390
Now, on a phone, there's no visual.
528
00:32:13,740 --> 00:32:14,869
So I won't tie that in now.
529
00:32:15,149 --> 00:32:15,539
But.
530
00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:18,600
We ask people, what do you think
counts most in communications?
531
00:32:19,115 --> 00:32:20,805
And everyone thinks differently on it.
532
00:32:21,435 --> 00:32:26,725
Some people think the words, the verbal,
like if there's closed captioning, what
I'm saying, that's the most important.
533
00:32:27,245 --> 00:32:33,224
Some people think the voice vocal, the
sound of my voice, and then something
visual, what they see of someone.
534
00:32:34,475 --> 00:32:37,594
And then what we do is we do an exercise
to show them the power of visual.
535
00:32:38,045 --> 00:32:41,565
And they realize that we do follow
visual the power of the visual
536
00:32:41,595 --> 00:32:45,365
and the numbers are specifically
verbal is 7 percent vocal.
537
00:32:45,365 --> 00:32:52,244
I think it's 37 38 percent and then
visual 55 percent change the math.
538
00:32:52,244 --> 00:32:53,204
I'm not a great math.
539
00:32:53,404 --> 00:32:54,495
I say psychology.
540
00:32:55,115 --> 00:32:55,915
I think your listeners
541
00:32:56,304 --> 00:32:57,814
are our audience are accountants.
542
00:32:57,815 --> 00:32:59,495
They may correct everything you just said.
543
00:32:59,635 --> 00:33:00,385
They sure did.
544
00:33:00,405 --> 00:33:03,975
And so I apologize to your audience,
but they could do the numbers correctly.
545
00:33:03,975 --> 00:33:05,025
But you get the gist of it.
546
00:33:05,285 --> 00:33:07,455
Now, those numbers aren't from us.
547
00:33:07,495 --> 00:33:11,615
They're 30 years old from Albert,
Moravian, a professor at UCLA.
548
00:33:12,335 --> 00:33:14,055
And he wrote a book
called Silent Messages.
549
00:33:14,785 --> 00:33:20,565
And it's really based on an
inconsistent message, meaning when I
am inconsistent, what will you believe?
550
00:33:21,064 --> 00:33:24,795
And the studies show that if
I'm inconsistent, you'll believe
551
00:33:24,885 --> 00:33:27,645
what you see most when it comes
to trust and believability.
552
00:33:28,175 --> 00:33:32,645
Meaning if I'm saying I'm excited
to be here, I can't wait to talk
to you and have this session.
553
00:33:33,020 --> 00:33:37,560
But I say it with a serious face and I
say it with a monotone and I look away.
554
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:38,700
I can't wait to be here.
555
00:33:38,810 --> 00:33:39,790
I'm really excited.
556
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:41,859
The question is, what will you believe?
557
00:33:41,879 --> 00:33:42,910
You'll believe what you see.
558
00:33:43,089 --> 00:33:44,019
Secondly, what you hear.
559
00:33:44,890 --> 00:33:50,329
Lastly, the words that I say and
my point tied into an inconsistent
560
00:33:50,329 --> 00:33:56,630
message and this challenge of showing
you care or showing your heart.
561
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,110
Most business communications, most
communications is inconsistent.
562
00:34:01,860 --> 00:34:05,270
And the work we do, we're just
honestly, you know, in addition to
563
00:34:05,270 --> 00:34:08,450
the backyard barbecue, all we're
trying to do is make you consistent.
564
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:11,400
If you're consistent, we
have no role, we have no job.
565
00:34:12,720 --> 00:34:16,220
Chapter 2 of our book, I think we
called it, Business Communication Sucks.
566
00:34:17,410 --> 00:34:19,400
Because it's inconsistent.
567
00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:22,029
We say one thing, but sound
and look a different way.
568
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:23,990
And so we're just trying
to be more consistent.
569
00:34:24,180 --> 00:34:26,430
So that ties into harsh feedback.
570
00:34:26,985 --> 00:34:31,615
If you want to show you care,
there's a great book by Kim
Scott called Radical Candor.
571
00:34:31,615 --> 00:34:32,785
I recommend everyone read it.
572
00:34:33,425 --> 00:34:40,124
And many of my clients like commit to it,
but it's the idea and they share a good
story that I think gets to the gist of it.
573
00:34:40,164 --> 00:34:43,775
It's a Sheryl Sandberg story
when she was at Facebook.
574
00:34:43,865 --> 00:34:49,205
She might've been on Google, forget,
but basically she had a team member
that um, didn't know too much.
575
00:34:49,605 --> 00:34:50,835
And use too many fillers.
576
00:34:51,375 --> 00:34:53,605
And she said, she gave them feedback.
577
00:34:54,445 --> 00:34:54,805
Heads up.
578
00:34:54,825 --> 00:34:58,055
You use too many fillers and
it affects how you come across.
579
00:34:58,094 --> 00:34:58,545
All right.
580
00:34:58,945 --> 00:34:59,315
I get it.
581
00:34:59,315 --> 00:34:59,685
Okay.
582
00:35:00,450 --> 00:35:01,890
And show how to come over the top.
583
00:35:01,910 --> 00:35:02,940
Say, no, you don't get it.
584
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:04,590
You don't sound smart.
585
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,180
You, it takes away your credibility.
586
00:35:06,180 --> 00:35:09,360
I'm worried about like, there's
a sense of care that came.
587
00:35:09,430 --> 00:35:10,740
Now that's radical candor.
588
00:35:11,710 --> 00:35:15,810
The employee felt the care,
felt wanting them to be better.
589
00:35:15,820 --> 00:35:17,379
Like this is for you, not for me.
590
00:35:18,065 --> 00:35:19,025
That's radical candor.
591
00:35:19,095 --> 00:35:22,425
So that ties into showing how you feel.
592
00:35:22,495 --> 00:35:23,565
That's a consistent message.
593
00:35:24,765 --> 00:35:25,765
Ben, it's funny you mentioned that.
594
00:35:25,765 --> 00:35:27,235
I pointed to it right here behind me.
595
00:35:27,235 --> 00:35:29,365
I actually have that
book on my stand here.
596
00:35:29,365 --> 00:35:30,485
It is a great book.
597
00:35:30,925 --> 00:35:34,275
So Ben, something you said there
that I think is critically important.
598
00:35:34,285 --> 00:35:36,424
You talked about the person receiving
599
00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:44,870
If someone knows or they go into a
situation where they are getting the kind
of feedback that maybe they didn't want
600
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:50,959
to hear, what guidance would you have for
them just to help create a win scenario?
601
00:35:50,970 --> 00:35:56,420
Because sometimes, let me just share
it this way, Ben, in my early on,
when my coach was giving me that
602
00:35:56,420 --> 00:36:01,339
kind of feedback, I immediately went
up to a wall and would start to try
to justify the things that I did.
603
00:36:01,990 --> 00:36:05,580
And it was absolutely not receiving
the feedback, and it actually probably
604
00:36:05,580 --> 00:36:08,610
killed the conversation instead of
encouraging that kind of conversation.
605
00:36:08,610 --> 00:36:14,489
So what guidance would you have to
those that are receiving that kind of
feedback to help them be more successful?
606
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,609
Don't forget the why.
607
00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:21,599
I think what we do as communicators
or as those giving the harsh feedback.
608
00:36:22,030 --> 00:36:26,600
We forget to give them the why, and
the why is really showing the care.
609
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,610
Otherwise we'll get tackled.
610
00:36:28,750 --> 00:36:30,320
Heath, you're doing this wrong.
611
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,760
You can't be doing this.
612
00:36:32,090 --> 00:36:32,789
You got to fix that.
613
00:36:34,009 --> 00:36:35,180
Now there's no why in that.
614
00:36:36,530 --> 00:36:41,209
Heath, if you fix this, we're going to
be able to get you to that VP level,
because at that point you're going to
615
00:36:41,209 --> 00:36:45,880
have a lot more people and here's what
it's going to look like when you get
there, but this is what's holding back.
616
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:51,450
And this is what I'd love to help
you get through to get you at that
VP level in the next 12 months.
617
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:59,630
There's the why that makes you care more
that gets me showing you I'm trying to
groom you and I care about you Heath
618
00:36:59,910 --> 00:37:07,210
versus just fix us and that's where
you know you bring up nice and a lot of
people are afraid to bring up those harsh
619
00:37:07,210 --> 00:37:18,020
conversations those harsh things of what
to fix and so say whatever company and add
the word nice after that's a common term.
620
00:37:18,650 --> 00:37:19,500
Decor nice.
621
00:37:20,095 --> 00:37:22,995
We at Decker, we're nice to
people, and so we don't give that.
622
00:37:23,305 --> 00:37:25,085
So name a company and then add nice to it.
623
00:37:25,125 --> 00:37:28,434
And that's pretty consistent because
people don't want to give that feedback.
624
00:37:28,435 --> 00:37:30,945
But if you add the why,
it changes everything.
625
00:37:31,745 --> 00:37:32,715
Yeah, you have to, Ben.
626
00:37:32,745 --> 00:37:37,284
I think it's, nearly impossible for anyone
to get better if we're not having those
627
00:37:37,284 --> 00:37:40,695
kinds of conversations with each other
and then receiving that kind of feedback.
628
00:37:41,155 --> 00:37:46,545
So, Ben, as we are close to
wrapping up our time here, one
thing we like to ask every guest.
629
00:37:47,255 --> 00:37:50,885
Maybe a resource, whether that's
a book or a podcast or whatever it
630
00:37:50,905 --> 00:37:54,805
may be that's really just made a
significant impact on your own journey.
631
00:37:55,165 --> 00:37:58,105
Do you have any recommendations
for our listeners?
632
00:37:59,215 --> 00:38:01,425
I have a couple.
633
00:38:01,425 --> 00:38:05,464
I mean, with the podcast that you can
sign up for, everyone is different.
634
00:38:05,474 --> 00:38:08,825
A lot of people take walks and
drive a car and listen to podcasts.
635
00:38:09,175 --> 00:38:14,805
I'm not at that point yet, but I
have many peers and clients that
do that, which I think is awesome.
636
00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:22,370
I tie up to Twitter and acts like
feeds, little morsels of wisdom.
637
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:24,410
I find inspiration.
638
00:38:25,090 --> 00:38:31,400
So if you can find that, do that,
sign up for that, find ways that it
fills you up, that it comes to you.
639
00:38:31,420 --> 00:38:39,550
Cause a lot of times we don't go to it,
but from a super biased perspective, Bert,
which he's my father, I call him Bert.
640
00:38:39,550 --> 00:38:40,930
We've been in business for 20 years.
641
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:42,540
Bert Decker wrote a book.
642
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,470
You've got to be believed to be heard.
643
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,810
I think it's a, classic as far
as so much of what you and I have
644
00:38:48,810 --> 00:38:52,200
talked about, he says, how to
communicate, how important is it?
645
00:38:52,410 --> 00:38:59,740
And it's basically think about your
accounts in CPA firms and advisors that
you've got to be believed to be heard.
646
00:38:59,919 --> 00:39:02,454
Think about what they say
to clients, what it means.
647
00:39:02,635 --> 00:39:06,565
For their finances to tweak, you've
got to be believed to be heard.
648
00:39:07,155 --> 00:39:10,925
So that means they got to think about
their communications to be heard.
649
00:39:11,345 --> 00:39:13,115
Everything we're talking
about matters to them.
650
00:39:14,684 --> 00:39:16,285
An additional one is I'm a huge fan.
651
00:39:16,285 --> 00:39:18,235
I mentioned this earlier
of Chip and Dan Heath.
652
00:39:18,615 --> 00:39:21,645
They wrote a great bestseller, which
is one of the best messaging books.
653
00:39:21,654 --> 00:39:24,065
I think of made to stick.
654
00:39:24,655 --> 00:39:27,725
It's even memorable in how it looks,
it's orange with duct tape across.
655
00:39:28,405 --> 00:39:32,465
We partnered years ago with
them and created a Deckard May
District messaging program.
656
00:39:32,945 --> 00:39:36,115
Because they liked our grid and
we love their success principles.
657
00:39:36,585 --> 00:39:40,395
But they've wrote, written books
on, on, with Switch, Upstream,
658
00:39:40,815 --> 00:39:44,615
thinking about business, change
management, how to fix problems.
659
00:39:45,055 --> 00:39:45,394
I think.
660
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:52,050
They have a great way to get people
to think, but Malcolm Gladwell
books, those are, things that
661
00:39:52,050 --> 00:39:52,240
are my
662
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:52,630
go to
663
00:39:53,380 --> 00:39:54,030
very good, Ben.
664
00:39:54,030 --> 00:40:00,269
Well, as we wrap up here with our
time, if someone wanted to reach you,
what would be the best way to do that?
665
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:02,820
Well, I don't know our, website,
666
00:40:02,980 --> 00:40:03,230
decker.
667
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:03,730
com.
668
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:05,280
I'm not afraid of people.
669
00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:09,740
Shout out to me, I'll give them,
I think my email is somewhere
on our website, ben at decker.
670
00:40:09,930 --> 00:40:10,130
com.
671
00:40:10,130 --> 00:40:14,960
It's not that crazy, hard
to figure out, but I think.
672
00:40:15,435 --> 00:40:19,925
People can get better in communications
and finding a way to keep it as an
673
00:40:19,925 --> 00:40:23,915
intentional way because it, Bert used
to put this at the bottom of his email.
674
00:40:24,335 --> 00:40:28,284
The effectiveness of your communications
determines the effectiveness of your life.
675
00:40:29,185 --> 00:40:31,045
And you, started out talking about that.
676
00:40:31,114 --> 00:40:33,444
And I think that's really validating.
677
00:40:33,455 --> 00:40:35,375
You brought up Little League and kids.
678
00:40:35,975 --> 00:40:36,505
It's true.
679
00:40:36,595 --> 00:40:37,735
It goes into board meetings.
680
00:40:37,735 --> 00:40:38,825
It goes into spouses.
681
00:40:38,865 --> 00:40:47,114
It goes into so many things that we
operate on a daily basis, and it's not
just presentation skills or soft skills.
682
00:40:47,175 --> 00:40:51,095
These are mandatory that we have to
apply to our world and everything we do.
683
00:40:51,115 --> 00:40:54,944
So, yeah, I think just our website and
explore and figure out what you need.
684
00:40:54,945 --> 00:40:55,155
But.
685
00:40:55,610 --> 00:40:56,300
Read the book.
686
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:58,880
Just stay in the process
of getting better.
687
00:40:59,140 --> 00:41:00,030
That's what it's about.
688
00:41:00,650 --> 00:41:01,360
Very good, Ben.
689
00:41:01,370 --> 00:41:04,009
Well, I love that you said the
process of getting better, because
690
00:41:04,009 --> 00:41:07,540
I don't think any of us can probably
ever be perfect at communicating.
691
00:41:07,540 --> 00:41:11,190
So it is a process, and we continue
to learn and continue to improve.
692
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:14,259
So, Ben, I greatly appreciate
the time you've invested today.
693
00:41:14,540 --> 00:41:17,790
I continue to learn every time I talk
to you, so I'm grateful for that.
694
00:41:18,135 --> 00:41:20,675
Um, Ben, I look forward to our
next conversation at some point.
695
00:41:20,825 --> 00:41:21,785
Thank you to our listeners.
696
00:41:22,105 --> 00:41:23,005
And we'll talk to you soon.
697
00:41:23,435 --> 00:41:24,245
Thank you for having me.
698
00:41:26,025 --> 00:41:28,644
Thanks for joining us on
the Upstream Leader Podcast.
699
00:41:29,135 --> 00:41:33,174
We hope today's episode has enriched
your understanding of what it takes
700
00:41:33,204 --> 00:41:36,454
to become a high performing leader
in the accounting profession.
701
00:41:37,235 --> 00:41:43,525
If you'd like to hear more episodes,
Subscribe on your favorite podcasting
app and visit our website where
702
00:41:43,525 --> 00:41:48,115
you'll find full show notes and
more the upstream leader dot com
703
00:41:57,025 --> 00:41:59,684
Professional productions net
00:00:01,740 --> 00:00:06,061
Maximize your accounting career by
becoming high yield and low maintenance.
2
00:00:06,271 --> 00:00:13,471
With the Upstream Leader Podcast,
your passport to improved knowledge,
skills, and career potential.
3
00:00:13,891 --> 00:00:18,421
Stay tuned for insights, expertise,
and thought provoking discussion.
4
00:00:19,081 --> 00:00:21,451
And now here's your host, Heath Allway.
5
00:00:25,591 --> 00:00:27,781
Welcome back to the
Upstream Leader Podcast.
6
00:00:27,781 --> 00:00:30,271
I'm Heath Allway, your
host for today's episode.
7
00:00:30,721 --> 00:00:35,541
And our guest today is Ben
Decker, chairman and co CEO
of Decker Communications.
8
00:00:35,941 --> 00:00:37,181
Ben, it's great to see you again.
9
00:00:37,191 --> 00:00:38,611
Looking forward to having you on the show.
10
00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:39,989
Excited to be here.
11
00:00:39,990 --> 00:00:40,240
Thanks, Eve.
12
00:00:41,215 --> 00:00:45,575
So Ben, we'll jump right in something we
ask every guest to get the conversation
13
00:00:45,585 --> 00:00:49,255
started is what has really made
you the leader that you are today?
14
00:00:51,075 --> 00:00:51,725
That
15
00:00:52,305 --> 00:00:57,825
question can easily become a self
proclaiming like self pat on the back.
16
00:00:57,935 --> 00:01:02,515
So I'm a little worried about how
to answer that as one of our values
of our company is humble confidence.
17
00:01:02,905 --> 00:01:09,245
And so it doesn't feel very humble to
tell you why I think I'm the leader I am,
but I'll turn it into how I think I'm the
18
00:01:09,265 --> 00:01:13,105
person I am, which ties into leadership,
which ties into communication, of course.
19
00:01:13,145 --> 00:01:18,924
But growing up, my mom passed away
when I was young and I had a lot of
independence and I, the way I grew up
20
00:01:18,925 --> 00:01:23,065
was pretty close with my father and we
ended up going into business together
21
00:01:23,065 --> 00:01:29,645
after I had a different career, but that
allowed me for discernment, judgment.
22
00:01:30,395 --> 00:01:36,764
trusting my own judgment and also
learning the power of communications,
which ties into education, influencing
23
00:01:36,774 --> 00:01:42,374
others, bringing people along,
getting them to want to do something
versus have to do something.
24
00:01:42,964 --> 00:01:45,335
And luckily that's the
profession that I'm in.
25
00:01:45,344 --> 00:01:47,654
And so I think that has
a lot to do with it.
26
00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:49,759
With care.
27
00:01:50,009 --> 00:01:52,640
When we hire people, I
always ask, just care.
28
00:01:53,010 --> 00:01:54,679
All I ask is that you care more.
29
00:01:55,270 --> 00:02:01,100
And so that's luckily pretty innate in
me of caring for clients, thinking about
them, what's coming up, what's going on.
30
00:02:01,539 --> 00:02:02,279
Is it going well?
31
00:02:02,279 --> 00:02:03,140
What can we do?
32
00:02:03,710 --> 00:02:05,900
And so I think that
ties into a leadership.
33
00:02:06,630 --> 00:02:09,520
I don't know if it's servant leadership,
but there's more of a care there.
34
00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:16,850
Yeah, and Ben, I think in most cases,
people can see if you truly care or
if it's a, you know, a fake caring.
35
00:02:16,860 --> 00:02:20,260
So, Ben, let me ask you
this on your comment there.
36
00:02:20,260 --> 00:02:25,455
You said that you and your father were
close and Went into business together.
37
00:02:25,485 --> 00:02:29,255
I was reading your bio this morning
and there was a comment in there
38
00:02:29,255 --> 00:02:33,225
about how you were immersed into
the, Decker method pretty early on.
39
00:02:33,595 --> 00:02:37,955
And it was something along the
lines of your videotapes before
your junior high book reports.
40
00:02:38,485 --> 00:02:40,765
I don't know if those were
presentations or what that may be.
41
00:02:40,955 --> 00:02:42,834
How did that influence
what you're doing today?
42
00:02:42,834 --> 00:02:44,804
Or did it even influence
what you're doing today?
43
00:02:45,624 --> 00:02:46,044
Well, it did.
44
00:02:46,045 --> 00:02:48,565
So it becomes part of your DNA.
45
00:02:48,565 --> 00:02:51,405
But if you think about
kids today, Snapchat.
46
00:02:52,049 --> 00:02:55,149
Instagram, them seeing
themselves so much on video.
47
00:02:55,679 --> 00:02:57,040
I actually think it's a good thing.
48
00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,840
It hasn't happened like
this in generations past.
49
00:02:59,930 --> 00:03:05,029
So in my generation X, you don't
normally see yourself on video.
50
00:03:05,170 --> 00:03:09,950
I did grow up seeing myself
on video, realizing what I'm
doing, the experience I create.
51
00:03:10,589 --> 00:03:15,149
So it was helpful just to know what my
face is doing, what my hands are doing.
52
00:03:15,470 --> 00:03:20,430
And I think Kids are much more
aware of what they're doing and
comfortable seeing themselves.
53
00:03:20,460 --> 00:03:24,130
I mean, I have three teenage boys and
the Snapchat and the pictures that taking
54
00:03:24,130 --> 00:03:28,209
of themselves, even if they're looking
away, just quit sending these pictures.
55
00:03:28,759 --> 00:03:31,250
It is very helpful to be
aware of what you're doing.
56
00:03:31,290 --> 00:03:33,019
And that's really what we do as a company.
57
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:34,834
We help people become more aware.
58
00:03:35,015 --> 00:03:39,305
And so going back to that middle
school of myself, yeah, that had
59
00:03:39,305 --> 00:03:43,634
a huge impact on me and how I see
myself and how I want to come across.
60
00:03:44,495 --> 00:03:45,275
Very good, Ben.
61
00:03:45,275 --> 00:03:50,695
Well, with that, you kind of got
into this a little bit about what you
do, but just to give our listeners
62
00:03:50,705 --> 00:03:54,884
a little bit of a foundation for the
work that you do, and I think it's
very important work that you're doing.
63
00:03:55,230 --> 00:04:00,520
Tell us a little bit about Decker, you
know, and what you're doing to help
people from that communication standpoint.
64
00:04:01,490 --> 00:04:01,950
Sure.
65
00:04:01,990 --> 00:04:08,320
It's, uh, from CEO to sales, we are
a firm based out of San Francisco,
but we're really nationwide.
66
00:04:09,010 --> 00:04:14,659
We have about 40 people that travel
the country and the world working with
anywhere from fortune 500, fortune
67
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:19,730
10 to startups, entrepreneurs, and
helping them communicate better.
68
00:04:20,209 --> 00:04:24,939
And so my airplane pitches, we help people
and what they say and how they say it.
69
00:04:25,490 --> 00:04:30,820
And so when I describe that to
people on a plane, oftentimes
they'll say, shoot, I could use that.
70
00:04:31,330 --> 00:04:32,680
To which I say, we all can.
71
00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,410
And it's, one of these things that you
can always get better in communications.
72
00:04:37,110 --> 00:04:40,269
And so we help people become
aware of how they come across.
73
00:04:40,270 --> 00:04:43,409
We use a lot of video feedback,
put people on video and then
74
00:04:43,410 --> 00:04:47,200
get them in an environment where
they can get private coaching.
75
00:04:47,679 --> 00:04:53,239
Ideally, and be told the good,
the bad, the ugly of what they're
doing with ways of getting better.
76
00:04:53,659 --> 00:04:57,150
Whether it be eye communication,
voice, smile, hands, doesn't matter.
77
00:04:57,810 --> 00:05:04,719
But then what you say, the content,
we introduce a way to put together
thoughts, ideas, keynotes, all hands.
78
00:05:04,810 --> 00:05:08,499
Just a message with the
ideal that it's influential.
79
00:05:09,060 --> 00:05:15,730
People know why they're listening,
people know what it is you want them
to do, and that's A big challenge when,
80
00:05:15,830 --> 00:05:19,100
I mean, you and I work with a lot of
financial advisors, accountants, CPA
81
00:05:19,110 --> 00:05:23,900
firms, you can get into informing and
just sharing numbers and information.
82
00:05:24,539 --> 00:05:27,180
So much of our world at Decker is
really trying to have people think
83
00:05:27,190 --> 00:05:30,289
differently about their content and
do where do you want them to go?
84
00:05:31,099 --> 00:05:32,380
And audiences want that.
85
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,400
They want to know what they should do.
86
00:05:34,460 --> 00:05:37,909
And so then it's about putting it in a
way that can get them to nod their head.
87
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:44,009
That there's a touch of emotion
in the message versus just
pure data, facts, figures.
88
00:05:44,770 --> 00:05:48,030
Well, Ben, I know people can't see us on
video, but when you said getting people
89
00:05:48,030 --> 00:05:51,979
to nod their head, I saw myself just
nodding my head as you were talking.
90
00:05:51,979 --> 00:05:55,460
So maybe after the episode, we'll wait
and you can critique me afterward.
91
00:05:55,510 --> 00:05:58,805
We won't do that during the show,
but Well, we'll wait till afterwards.
92
00:05:59,115 --> 00:06:05,415
So, Ben, with what you do and the
audience you just described, when you
talk about communication, how important
93
00:06:05,425 --> 00:06:09,634
is that in someone's leadership journey
and the success of their own career?
94
00:06:10,655 --> 00:06:13,104
Well, you can argue
it's almost everything.
95
00:06:13,825 --> 00:06:17,784
There's a Bruce Barton quote
that I quote oftentimes in the
beginning of speeches or programs.
96
00:06:18,324 --> 00:06:21,654
And I'll paraphrase it, but basically
it says, it doesn't matter how much
97
00:06:21,865 --> 00:06:26,955
you know from all that I've seen
from doers, saints, writers combined.
98
00:06:27,260 --> 00:06:28,180
One thing is certain.
99
00:06:28,700 --> 00:06:29,890
Talkers have always ruled.
100
00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:31,430
They will continue to rule.
101
00:06:31,740 --> 00:06:32,800
Smart thing is to join them.
102
00:06:33,890 --> 00:06:40,530
Now I've shared that quote with hundreds
of people and there are people that get
offended with that quote, meaning people
103
00:06:40,530 --> 00:06:46,610
that are experts in their fields, MBA,
PhD. People that are so smart and it's not
104
00:06:46,620 --> 00:06:53,010
dismissing knowledge, but it's basically
using that knowledge to open up doors.
105
00:06:53,050 --> 00:06:54,220
You'll have a low ceiling.
106
00:06:54,220 --> 00:06:59,350
If you can't communicate well, you
can have the best idea, the best
invention, best innovation possible.
107
00:06:59,639 --> 00:07:01,070
But if you can't communicate it well.
108
00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:02,580
It's going to have a low ceiling.
109
00:07:02,930 --> 00:07:03,950
That's the point.
110
00:07:04,590 --> 00:07:10,220
So we have to communicate well to get
people to buy in, to get people to want
you to get people to take that idea
111
00:07:10,260 --> 00:07:16,739
and run with it, same thing with large
corporations, a CEO says a message.
112
00:07:17,359 --> 00:07:20,839
And the problem is it doesn't
go through the organization.
113
00:07:21,515 --> 00:07:24,375
People don't take it and communicate
it well to the front line.
114
00:07:24,795 --> 00:07:30,355
And so that's a lot of work we
do just to make sure our message
permeates, goes through, is absorbed.
115
00:07:30,534 --> 00:07:31,185
People get it.
116
00:07:31,245 --> 00:07:38,915
People want to, so you could argue
it is a huge part of success of how
people come across as I'm working
117
00:07:38,915 --> 00:07:46,805
with an investor day for a fortune
500 company that they're looking at
shareholders and what matters to them.
118
00:07:46,985 --> 00:07:52,295
And right now the management percentage
is not as high as they want it to be.
119
00:07:52,784 --> 00:07:59,005
Meaning as an investor, I don't have as
much confidence in the management team
because of basically how they communicate.
120
00:07:59,875 --> 00:08:05,095
So you connect that to any
business, any industry, it ties in.
121
00:08:05,745 --> 00:08:10,894
Well, Ben, with the importance that you
just described there, why do you think so
122
00:08:10,894 --> 00:08:15,735
many organizations, so many leaders will
still say communication is a soft skill?
123
00:08:16,695 --> 00:08:18,135
Yeah, it's one of my least favorite.
124
00:08:18,375 --> 00:08:18,935
Terms.
125
00:08:19,175 --> 00:08:23,795
I usually whenever I hear it,
I battle it and I call it out
as an elephant in the room.
126
00:08:23,985 --> 00:08:26,135
Same thing with in what we do.
127
00:08:26,135 --> 00:08:32,534
People will say, oh, you do presentation
skills and it really limits how you
think about what we're talking about.
128
00:08:32,564 --> 00:08:34,695
Am I presenting to you Heath right now?
129
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:35,750
Or to your audience.
130
00:08:35,750 --> 00:08:37,370
No, we're, you and I are talking.
131
00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,340
So when people say a soft skill, it
makes it as an optional, in my opinion.
132
00:08:42,590 --> 00:08:46,770
You can't help but brand it as a
nice to have, not a need to have.
133
00:08:46,860 --> 00:08:50,079
"Soft Skill." It's a mandatory skill.
134
00:08:50,179 --> 00:08:55,170
In fact, LinkedIn tied it as the number
one needed skill for hiring this year.
135
00:08:55,839 --> 00:08:58,450
Communications is the top
skill needed and wanted.
136
00:08:59,965 --> 00:09:06,855
So soft skill is a terrible branding
issue that I would hope every one of your
listeners don't think of it that way.
137
00:09:06,865 --> 00:09:12,025
And I think of it as a higher,
more critical skill, but soft skill
138
00:09:12,554 --> 00:09:15,805
treats it like a, uh, it'd be good
to have, but not have to have.
139
00:09:16,405 --> 00:09:20,264
And Ben, I think the other side of
that is not just from a professional
140
00:09:20,264 --> 00:09:24,915
standpoint, but every aspect of your
life, communication plays a key role in.
141
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,680
Coaching your kids sports team or how you
communicate and connect with your friends.
142
00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:32,099
And so Ben, I'm curious.
143
00:09:32,129 --> 00:09:36,540
Well, one, I'm actually glad you answered
it that way because so many times I
said this is a core leadership skill.
144
00:09:36,870 --> 00:09:42,099
It is a core people skill that
we all should focus on and
work at getting better at.
145
00:09:42,619 --> 00:09:46,719
I'm going to share some stats
with you and I'm curious to
see how you respond to this.
146
00:09:47,355 --> 00:09:51,805
But I shared in some of our presentations
when we're talking about being an advisor
147
00:09:51,805 --> 00:09:57,185
and truly listening to connect with
people and we see so many distractions.
148
00:09:57,254 --> 00:10:02,584
So some stats all throughout,
say we spend over three hours on
average on our cell phones a day.
149
00:10:02,935 --> 00:10:07,545
Then maybe we get 50 to
75 to 100 emails a day.
150
00:10:07,945 --> 00:10:10,535
Maybe we spend, you know,
that three and a half hours.
151
00:10:10,535 --> 00:10:12,565
We check our phone over 300 times a day.
152
00:10:13,265 --> 00:10:17,624
How is all the distractions or the things
that we are constantly bombarded with?
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How does that impact our listening
skills and effective communication?
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Well, some people say there's
no such thing as multitasking.
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So, so think of it that way
of, can I do this and that?
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And the idea of being present
and showing your presence.
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I mean, a lot of the coaching
we do, we remind people and the
communicators that it's not about you.
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It's about them, the
audience, your listener.
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So how do you focus on them?
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We give an example in our programs
where I communicate, let's just
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talk about eye communication
and you bring up cell phones.
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If we pair people up, A and B. And
A, talk to B about your morning,
doesn't matter what you say.
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And so we have B look at A
while they are listening.
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And then we yell and say, B
look away, A keep talking.
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And so B's looking away.
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And it's very distracting.
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And bottom line, we switch it around and
we just talk about how does that feel?
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And it doesn't feel good, it feels rude.
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And then we ask how
often does that happen?
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So to your point around distractions, if
I'm at a cocktail party with you Heath,
and I want to see Joe, Sue, or Bob, But
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I'm here with Heath and my eyes are going
over there and looking over at them,
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even though you and I have a drinking
hand and we're talking to each other.
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Do you feel like I'm there with you?
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And the answer is no, and that's
because of a distraction, whether
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it be a cell phone or a person
and what I'm doing with my eyes.
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I need you to feel like I'm
entirely there with you.
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That goes into the behaviors.
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That goes into tuning other things
out, and I'm focused on you.
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So that's purely eye communication.
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That takes intentionality.
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Because most people don't
realize what they're doing.
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They have no idea what
they do with their eyes.
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It's just that these things are habits.
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That's what we're dealing with.
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Codified habits to anyone that's You know,
I could argue by your teenage years, you
become pretty codified in your habits.
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We deal with people from the 30 to
50 range, usually 30 to 60 range,
and these are really codified habits.
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So you've got to change your habits
of your voice, your eyes, your smile,
what you do with your hands, how you
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stand to show your presence, to show
care, to show your focus entirely
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on your audience, whether it's
one on one as I'm looking at this.
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Camera to you.
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Or if there's 100 people, what I do
with my eyes and how I hold them and
look at them versus look at the ground.
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Look at the ceiling.
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It looks like I'm not really present.
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I'm distracted, etcetera.
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So Ben, you mentioned the habits
and I actually had a car ride.
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We were going to help a friend
pick up something over the weekend.
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And he was just back from vacation, he
and his two kids and his wife, they went
on a cruise, and he said they did not get
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the internet package, so they couldn't
use their cell phones, they couldn't
use any of the technology, and he said
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it was alarming, he said it was really
good, I'm glad we did that, but he said
it was alarming the first couple of days
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of How much I caught myself trying to
look at my phone or do something on my
phone just out of natural habits So if
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we know that those habits are there,
how do we start to break that habit?
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How do we get more?
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You know more intentional about being
present to show that we do care and that
we are trying to connect with someone
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Any thoughts on how you overcome those
habits that in a lot of ways, Ben,
I would say maybe are blind spots.
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Maybe we don't even realize
that we're doing it at times.
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I think that's accurate.
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And I think it just takes intentionality.
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I, spoke with, um, a leader
yesterday and I was asking her.
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How she's doing working on
the things we're working on.
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And she goes, well, I'm
not really working on it.
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I'm fairly overwhelmed.
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I'm back to back to back So when I have
an all team with thousands of my team, I
leave one meeting and go right into it.
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And I challenged her on it.
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I said, you got to change your schedule.
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You got to work with your admin to
add buffer to add margin so that
you don't go straight from that.
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You got to get your head right.
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So he's, I would tie that into what you're
describing as boundaries and setting up.
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I mean, I put up screen time
for my three teenage boys.
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I don't want them always looking
at their phone, so I limit them
because it's become a habit.
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They just grab it and look
at it because it's a habit.
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But if they are limited,
they'll do it less.
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And so I'm just trying to veer
that just like you and I. We may
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want to, for example, on this
podcast, I turned off my phone.
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I know you don't want buzzing.
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I know you don't want distractions,
but I did that to be entirely present.
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That's an intentionality
of what I'm doing.
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So I'm right here during this podcast.
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There's little things we can do,
but that takes intentionality.
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Well, Ben, something you said
a minute ago, too, I want
to go back to for a second.
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You said in communication, we
have to remember it's about them.
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It's not about us.
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And so I'm going to put
myself out there a little bit.
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I hope I'm not the only person that's ever
went through this before, but sometimes.
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You know, even with self awareness, I
go back to networking situations and
sometimes in those networking situations
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may be a little more nervous or a little
more angst in those type of settings.
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And whenever you meet someone new and all
of a sudden, if those nerves are elevated,
I've been guilty of all of a sudden start
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talking about everything that we do at
upstream or whenever I was at a firm.
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It's, you know, someone
would say, what do you do?
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It was all about our services
and a number of offices.
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You know, all the things about me and
I was not doing that intentionally
Ben, but then I realized when
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someone would walk away I didn't even
remember their name half the time.
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I was so in the moment of meeting someone
It was all about me because that's what
I was comfortable talking about And
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then I couldn't even remember their name
chances are they probably walked away They
probably didn't remember my name and I've
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had to learn how to shift that so Ben I
guess one is that natural in networking
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settings of People are maybe a little more
uncomfortable in those type of settings.
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It's not just those settings.
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It's actually a lot of
corporate environments.
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We end up talking about ourselves,
our thing, our widget, our company,
our organization, our industry.
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We talk about ourselves
because it's what we know.
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There's a great story that I sometimes
reference, a Dale Carnegie story.
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You know, he wrote one of the
great bestsellers of How to Win.
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Uh, over people with influence, which
I think I just butchered the name,
but you know what I'm talking about,
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but he told the story of when he's
at one of his trainings and he went
to the back and the woman didn't
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know who he was and he basically just
asked her questions for 20 minutes.
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And he didn't say more than five words.
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He just asked questions.
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At the end, when he had to go, she said,
you are an amazing conversationalist.
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Thank you for this time.
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And he didn't say anything.
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And my point and bring up to you,
Heath, is the idea of curiosity, the
idea of asking questions, the idea
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of gamifying it, of sometimes in
our programs, we'll play hot potato,
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make a challenge to find out as much
as possible about the other person.
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And we could talk about
like high school career.
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Tell me about your high school.
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Where'd you go?
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Tell me more.
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Did you play sports?
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It's like trying to find out about
the other person versus talking about
yourself, because then you'll turn around.
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Oh, really?
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Where did you go to high
school and what did you play?
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And I'll answer it.
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But then I got turned
around to show up curiosity.
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So in the networking
environments, stay curious.
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Gamify it.
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Challenge yourself to, to figure
out ways to remember names.
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That is a great skill.
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Heath.
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How I remember the name Heath.
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So for me, I'm a big fan of
Chip and Dan Heath, Brothers.
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So that helped me remember Heath.
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Like literally, When I first
met you, that's what I did.
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Find ways to remember names.
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But that's gamifying it.
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So Ben, when you say gamifying in
that, you know, being inquisitive
and constantly asking questions.
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Yeah, I go back and I look at my kids.
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I have a six year old and 11 year old
and they are always asking questions.
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And then as we get older and we
feel like we have to be an expert
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or know everything, what's,
where do we lose that in life?
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And what drives that?
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Because I feel like at a certain
stage in the career, we start
to lose that power of questions.
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I started feeling like we
have to have the answers.
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Is that something you see commonly
with the people that you work with?
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I suppose so.
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I don't know if or where or how we lose
curiosity or interest in others because
there are many people that have a great
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amount of curiosity, great amount of
empathy, and it's some of it's innate.
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The rest of it, you and I have to
be intentional to increase or grow.
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There's no doubt about that, but
I'll tie affect to curiosity because.
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Affect is a physical expression of
psychological or emotional energy.
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And as kids, we let it out.
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You know, Dad, give me some food.
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I'm hungry.
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And kids are good at
getting what they want.
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As we become teenagers, we lose
affect, meaning we get, call it peer
pressure, call it puberty, call it life
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is getting real, grades are getting
real, becoming subject matter experts,
and we get a little more held in.
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And so we share this in our
coaching because as we get
into that decision making.
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We get really tight and a lot of the work
we do at Decker is trying to loosen people
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up and get them to speak with passion
and voice and lean into the audience.
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And that's really focused on affect
to let go of the content because
we focus so much on the content.
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And we forget about the experience.
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I think there's a little bit
of tie in with curiosity.
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Meaning, we get so focused on us and
what we do, and we lose sight of them.
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Of Heath, where he lives,
what he does, tell me more.
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Because we get focused on what we do.
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I think there's a little bit of
a tie in with how we grow up.
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In fact, Now that I think
about it, there's a Ted Club.
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Sir Ken Robinson talked about, you
know, kids are born with creativity
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and curiosity, and as they age,
we kind of kill it out of them.
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And that's what we got to look into
changing with our education systems.
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It's a fantastic Ted Club.
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Yeah, I love that.
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And as you're talking, I think
sometimes my own struggle is
we live in a society of busy.
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The more you have going on, maybe you feel
like it's more, you're more important.
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But sometimes in that busy environment,
we missed the time to take the extra
five minutes and ask those questions.
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How was your weekend?
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Tell me about your high school.
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Tell me, you know, all those type
think sometimes we miss out on that.
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Truly that opportunity to
connect with people and well, and
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he's especially, in zoom.
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Like you think about the last few
years through any video interaction,
we just go right into business.
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Now, if you're in an office, there's
something about clothing or smell
or, um, the way the room is set
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up that we talk about something
in a zoom, we dive right into it.
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In a team's meeting in a Google meet,
whatever video platform you use, and
we're working with a lot of clients.
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How do you fix that?
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Because we lose the connection piece
of I don't even know how he stays.
335
00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:03,010
We just dove into the
process in the system.
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00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:06,219
So that's something you really
got to be intentional about.
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00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:09,049
That is an easy fix of the
first couple of minutes.
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00:21:09,049 --> 00:21:10,675
Just a. How is everyone's day?
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00:21:10,685 --> 00:21:11,215
How are we doing?
340
00:21:11,455 --> 00:21:13,145
Like, slow down and then dive into it.
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00:21:13,335 --> 00:21:16,415
Sorry, I interrupted you, but that's
an important piece tied into video.
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No, you're fine, Ben.
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So, in a way, kind of almost planning
unplanned time when we have those
interactions to make that connection.
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Yeah, back to intentionality.
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To have those kind of conversations.
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I like that.
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00:21:30,675 --> 00:21:36,685
So, Ben, one thing I'll go back to,
we talked about those environments
of, you know, networking or
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00:21:36,685 --> 00:21:39,784
whatever may be, whenever maybe
the nerves are a little high.
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And I, Ben, I don't have scientific
data to support this, but what I
can say is, in the public accounting
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profession, there are definitely more self
proclaimed introverts than extroverts.
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Without a doubt.
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And I think sometimes when that word's
used around business development or
networking, it's used as a negative.
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So do you, see the being an introvert
is truly a negative when it comes to
communication and connection with people?
354
00:22:09,229 --> 00:22:11,030
Well, no,
355
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my worry about the word introvert
is to many, not all, but to many,
356
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it can become a scapegoat and
an excuse I don't do well there.
357
00:22:20,109 --> 00:22:22,619
Cause I'm an introvert and
we use it as a scapegoat.
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And so.
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In a lot of the work that we do, just
to put it as plain and simple, what I'm
360
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trying to do with any executive is to
pull out the backyard barbecue person.
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00:22:34,815 --> 00:22:38,264
Now that's, a term I use, but it's
like if you think about, you have a
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drink in your hand, you're talking to
friends, are you an introvert there?
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And to most people, no, I speak freely.
364
00:22:45,770 --> 00:22:46,430
I'm excited.
365
00:22:46,430 --> 00:22:47,010
I smile.
366
00:22:47,010 --> 00:22:47,860
I tell stories.
367
00:22:48,330 --> 00:22:53,170
So why can't we have that person be
in a conference room, in a boardroom?
368
00:22:53,230 --> 00:22:56,909
And so that's at the gist, at the
bottom line of what I'm trying to do.
369
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:57,919
We have Decker.
370
00:22:58,649 --> 00:22:59,200
That's it.
371
00:22:59,909 --> 00:23:07,920
Now here's a real life example, working
with a leader yesterday, who's runs
multi thousand people organization.
372
00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:10,200
She didn't do great in
an all team meeting.
373
00:23:11,140 --> 00:23:12,109
She doesn't like it.
374
00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:13,489
She's just trying to get through it.
375
00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:15,680
But she likes board meetings.
376
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,120
I said, explain that to me.
377
00:23:17,170 --> 00:23:19,480
Cause it's usually the
opposite for most people.
378
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,979
I don't like board meetings because
they're going to talk to me and they're
looking to look for something wrong.
379
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,469
She goes, cause I know my business and
they just want to talk to business.
380
00:23:27,779 --> 00:23:28,580
And I'm an introvert.
381
00:23:29,180 --> 00:23:30,870
So I. I really pushed her.
382
00:23:30,870 --> 00:23:34,550
I said, let's think about the introvert,
the way you are back here at barbecue.
383
00:23:34,550 --> 00:23:35,110
Are you this way?
384
00:23:35,110 --> 00:23:40,550
She goes, yeah, I'm like, so let's just
try to be that way for your all team
for all these moments that you show
385
00:23:40,550 --> 00:23:47,530
up because that's a big aha to many
people, whether you're an accountant,
CEO, frontline, it doesn't matter if you
386
00:23:47,530 --> 00:23:54,980
think about how you show up every time
and make it consistent because the big
thing is take away an on off switch.
387
00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:58,870
When I'm at a networking
event, I gotta turn it on.
388
00:23:58,990 --> 00:24:02,730
Now, to an introvert, that's very
tiring and cumbersome and challenging.
389
00:24:03,290 --> 00:24:05,850
So what if we didn't have to turn
it on, but we just stayed curious?
390
00:24:06,129 --> 00:24:06,750
We asked questions.
391
00:24:06,750 --> 00:24:09,530
And who cares about us, but
let's find out about them.
392
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:11,029
That's gamifying.
393
00:24:11,090 --> 00:24:14,429
That's changing the mindset
of, it's no longer about you.
394
00:24:14,954 --> 00:24:17,684
They ask you a question, like at
a backyard barbecue, you're going
395
00:24:17,684 --> 00:24:19,934
to answer it, but you're also
going to turn around to them.
396
00:24:20,084 --> 00:24:25,014
So I get worried that it gets used as
a scapegoat and an excuse too much.
397
00:24:25,385 --> 00:24:31,334
I get that we have to find our
energy in different places, but be
careful of using it as that excuse.
398
00:24:32,284 --> 00:24:38,774
So Ben, let's say a scenario where maybe
someone is more introverted and they meet
someone that's maybe more extroverted.
399
00:24:39,435 --> 00:24:45,530
Do you have any guidance on like those
different kind of personality traits
and what people can do to Effectively
400
00:24:45,530 --> 00:24:48,800
communicate with someone that may have a
different personality than what they do.
401
00:24:49,310 --> 00:24:52,460
Yeah, and there are so
many assessment tools.
402
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,809
Disk, Genius from a Lencioni table group.
403
00:24:56,820 --> 00:25:02,289
They have a great widget approach
of trying to figure out your
traits and what you're good at.
404
00:25:02,489 --> 00:25:05,000
And there's, you know, half a dozen.
405
00:25:06,139 --> 00:25:07,810
It's good to know who they are.
406
00:25:07,945 --> 00:25:13,825
I mean, even within teams to
know what they like, how they
operate and adjusting accordingly.
407
00:25:14,925 --> 00:25:19,124
But shoot, I've, worked with clients
that do a total dissection of an audience
408
00:25:20,004 --> 00:25:24,095
of a leader as they look to sell and
like literally break down everything.
409
00:25:24,514 --> 00:25:26,335
And it makes you adjust too much.
410
00:25:27,195 --> 00:25:32,835
But just knowing that if they're an
introvert, they may not want to be super.
411
00:25:33,435 --> 00:25:39,284
Gregarious or big and talk and so
just you may want to lower it down
a little bit based on them again,
412
00:25:39,605 --> 00:25:43,074
know your audience and that's
critical as you create messages.
413
00:25:43,514 --> 00:25:47,694
That's 1 thing that people don't do well
enough is really dissect their audience.
414
00:25:47,695 --> 00:25:49,034
Really know them well enough.
415
00:25:49,454 --> 00:25:53,534
We can always do more and
just adjust to them, but.
416
00:25:54,755 --> 00:26:00,615
in a network setting, you can
overwhelm someone for sure of
just being too big, too much.
417
00:26:01,754 --> 00:26:03,305
You don't want to not be yourself.
418
00:26:03,524 --> 00:26:07,475
And that's a big thing where a
lot of people think we're trying
to create robots that decorate.
419
00:26:07,784 --> 00:26:09,664
No, just bring out your personal self.
420
00:26:10,065 --> 00:26:11,245
Adjust it accordingly.
421
00:26:11,245 --> 00:26:13,524
So there's times you've got to turn
up and turn down different things.
422
00:26:14,584 --> 00:26:19,935
And Ben, in those, so With what you
just said there and thinking about,
you know, some of our conversation
423
00:26:20,445 --> 00:26:26,004
say we have someone that maybe feels
like they're an introvert or I'll even
probably take it a step further and
424
00:26:26,004 --> 00:26:33,064
say, maybe they struggle with self doubt
or what we call the imposter syndrome
of my gosh, if I'm talking to someone
425
00:26:33,064 --> 00:26:37,605
that has 25 more years of experience
than I do, how can I bring value?
426
00:26:37,615 --> 00:26:40,225
So they just, they, won't speak
up or they'll hold in their
427
00:26:40,225 --> 00:26:44,325
thoughts or maybe been in another
scenario, similar, but different.
428
00:26:44,939 --> 00:26:52,680
You mentioned in a meeting with a team and
maybe they're only a couple of years into
their career and everyone else in the room
429
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:58,379
is 2025 years in and so they feel like,
gosh, what value can I bring to this?
430
00:26:58,389 --> 00:27:01,280
So they will not communicate
or they'll just hold it in.
431
00:27:01,729 --> 00:27:03,924
What advice do you have
for someone that maybe?
432
00:27:04,784 --> 00:27:09,794
Feeling that self doubt and so they're
holding back on some of their thoughts
or some of the value that they
433
00:27:09,794 --> 00:27:12,824
could bring, you know, in that team
setting or to others that they meet,
434
00:27:13,574 --> 00:27:16,905
you know, the interesting thing is self
doubt and imposter syndrome happens to
435
00:27:16,905 --> 00:27:20,995
almost everybody and you don't realize
that you just assume it's just you.
436
00:27:21,485 --> 00:27:26,114
I'm working with a leader right now
working on a commencement speech and
she's going to address self doubt.
437
00:27:26,830 --> 00:27:33,239
Imposter syndrome, and she's a woman
that runs a huge organization that's
fairly well known just to make it
438
00:27:33,239 --> 00:27:40,669
more real part of the challenges that
we can forget the value of bring,
uh, I'll tie it into a quick story.
439
00:27:41,209 --> 00:27:48,169
Um, you know, I'm almost 50 years old
when I did my first one on one coaching
and what I do was about 20 years ago with
440
00:27:48,169 --> 00:27:53,860
a gentleman from, um, I can say Cisco
systems ran a huge part of the business.
441
00:27:54,514 --> 00:27:56,645
And the person was in their fifties.
442
00:27:56,725 --> 00:27:57,775
I was very intimidated.
443
00:27:57,775 --> 00:27:58,875
I had a lot of self doubt.
444
00:27:58,875 --> 00:28:04,245
They had every degree, like literally
Princeton, Columbia, Harvard, and one
445
00:28:04,245 --> 00:28:09,495
other Ivy league, no joke, whether it be
a JD, their law degree, MBA, et cetera.
446
00:28:09,675 --> 00:28:10,285
Master's.
447
00:28:10,865 --> 00:28:11,875
I was very intimidated.
448
00:28:11,875 --> 00:28:12,825
I had a lot of self doubt.
449
00:28:12,855 --> 00:28:14,304
Who am I to work with this person?
450
00:28:15,355 --> 00:28:18,665
Bottom line, they weren't
a great communicator and I
brought value to that person.
451
00:28:19,004 --> 00:28:21,945
And the boss said, you
transform this person.
452
00:28:21,955 --> 00:28:22,665
Oh my gosh.
453
00:28:23,284 --> 00:28:25,634
Now that reminded me of the value.
454
00:28:25,925 --> 00:28:30,825
Why are we can bring just by helping
them become more aware of what
they're doing and ways to fix it.
455
00:28:31,565 --> 00:28:34,155
We can forget a certain
value that we bring.
456
00:28:34,894 --> 00:28:40,225
So whether it be other people remind
you, whether it be finding your lane,
457
00:28:40,735 --> 00:28:43,965
whether it be realizing the gaps and
that goes back to listener focused.
458
00:28:43,965 --> 00:28:47,615
When you stay listener focused and
you realize, Oh, they don't have this.
459
00:28:47,664 --> 00:28:48,844
Oh, they need this.
460
00:28:49,554 --> 00:28:50,735
They don't realize.
461
00:28:51,230 --> 00:28:56,330
That they don't have, whatever
it is, that gives you confidence
that helps address the doubt.
462
00:28:57,100 --> 00:28:59,230
And then it goes into
how you communicate it.
463
00:29:00,110 --> 00:29:03,650
My favorite tip in communications is
audience only gets what you give them.
464
00:29:04,190 --> 00:29:07,129
And I'll say it again, audience
only gets what you give them.
465
00:29:07,790 --> 00:29:09,639
So he's tied that in a couple of ways.
466
00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:11,710
What if I got one hour
of sleep last night?
467
00:29:11,939 --> 00:29:13,770
What if I don't want to be
here on this podcast with you?
468
00:29:13,940 --> 00:29:15,210
Do you know, do you need to know?
469
00:29:15,210 --> 00:29:16,530
Do your listeners need to know?
470
00:29:17,170 --> 00:29:17,480
No.
471
00:29:17,935 --> 00:29:22,685
And none of that's true,
but I can disguise it with
my energy, with how I talk.
472
00:29:23,274 --> 00:29:25,824
Same thing when I finish, I might
think, shoot, that was terrible.
473
00:29:25,824 --> 00:29:26,584
I should've said this.
474
00:29:26,584 --> 00:29:27,664
I needed to do that.
475
00:29:28,534 --> 00:29:29,445
Well, do they know?
476
00:29:29,445 --> 00:29:30,965
Do any of your listeners, do you know?
477
00:29:31,274 --> 00:29:32,395
No, you don't.
478
00:29:32,735 --> 00:29:34,324
So audience only gets what you give them.
479
00:29:34,885 --> 00:29:36,535
Helps address that doubt.
480
00:29:36,895 --> 00:29:39,284
Helps address like, I lost my place.
481
00:29:39,314 --> 00:29:40,594
I don't know what I'm talking about.
482
00:29:41,435 --> 00:29:42,864
You don't need to show it.
483
00:29:42,874 --> 00:29:49,615
So I'm not just talking about just
covering, but it helps that doubt of
making sure every communication experience
484
00:29:49,985 --> 00:29:50,544
is pretty good.
485
00:29:51,205 --> 00:29:52,534
Yeah, Ben, I love that.
486
00:29:53,424 --> 00:29:54,264
I wrote that down.
487
00:29:54,264 --> 00:29:55,884
I may have to use that if you don't mind.
488
00:29:55,884 --> 00:29:57,094
At some points, I think of.
489
00:29:57,630 --> 00:30:05,070
Like in the term sales in public
accounting sometimes has a very negative
connotation to it But the way I kind
490
00:30:05,070 --> 00:30:08,720
of phrase it is if you know you bring
value to your clients And you're
491
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,465
making a difference in your client
base It's your role as an advisor.
492
00:30:12,465 --> 00:30:14,565
There are other people out there
that can benefit from that.
493
00:30:14,565 --> 00:30:16,755
And they don't know that if you
can't talk to them about it.
494
00:30:17,085 --> 00:30:22,925
So I love that thought process of
maybe sometimes we underestimate our
own value and the difference we can
495
00:30:22,925 --> 00:30:29,035
make with clients, Ben, something else
that I see a lot of in our profession.
496
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:31,900
We'll say the profession of nice.
497
00:30:32,550 --> 00:30:34,700
We, have a, you know, I'm so lucky.
498
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:36,800
We have so many great professionals.
499
00:30:37,230 --> 00:30:38,130
They truly care.
500
00:30:38,130 --> 00:30:43,270
They're truly passionate about what
they do, but sometimes struggle
to have the hard conversations.
501
00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:46,160
Maybe we're afraid we're going
to hurt someone's feelings.
502
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,619
It's on our team or maybe
a client that we work with.
503
00:30:48,629 --> 00:30:52,610
So sometimes we'll avoid
the hard conversations.
504
00:30:52,830 --> 00:30:54,920
And so in those settings, Ben.
505
00:30:55,415 --> 00:30:57,625
Sometimes emotions can be high.
506
00:30:58,115 --> 00:31:02,705
Something you shared when I had the
opportunity to hear you speak was
about the nonverbal communication.
507
00:31:03,125 --> 00:31:09,215
Can you talk a little bit about,
in those situations, how our
nonverbal, I guess, let me ask it
508
00:31:09,215 --> 00:31:13,104
this way, Ben, what percentage of
communication happens nonverbally?
509
00:31:13,295 --> 00:31:15,725
Because that, stat was
pretty impressive to me.
510
00:31:16,515 --> 00:31:19,655
Well, you know, we're coming
into a political season.
511
00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:22,160
We're going to watch debates, I think.
512
00:31:22,430 --> 00:31:23,300
Let's see if there's debates.
513
00:31:23,330 --> 00:31:25,040
But anyways, we're coming
into a political season.
514
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:31,645
Often times what happens is My friends
or people I know will ask me, Hey,
Ben, what did you think of that?
515
00:31:32,775 --> 00:31:34,995
And I turn around to them and
say, well, what did you think?
516
00:31:35,295 --> 00:31:39,204
And what I'm sharing with you, Heath
is I see the same things you see.
517
00:31:40,395 --> 00:31:43,255
The only difference is I'm
thinking, how can I fix it?
518
00:31:43,934 --> 00:31:45,355
So when you bring up non verbals.
519
00:31:46,220 --> 00:31:50,280
You and I see the same thing,
whether it be someone's too serious
and they're talking about something
520
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,920
positive, whether it be they're
giving an inconsistent message.
521
00:31:55,049 --> 00:31:59,580
So what you're bringing up is
what we talked about with the
three V's, verbal, vocal, visual.
522
00:31:59,690 --> 00:32:01,980
It's really everything happening
in a communication experience.
523
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,670
Here we are on a video
call, so you can see me.
524
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:06,299
So there's visual included.
525
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:10,500
So I would say a video call and in
person tie into all three of those.
526
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:11,740
They're all happening.
527
00:32:12,110 --> 00:32:13,390
Now, on a phone, there's no visual.
528
00:32:13,740 --> 00:32:14,869
So I won't tie that in now.
529
00:32:15,149 --> 00:32:15,539
But.
530
00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:18,600
We ask people, what do you think
counts most in communications?
531
00:32:19,115 --> 00:32:20,805
And everyone thinks differently on it.
532
00:32:21,435 --> 00:32:26,725
Some people think the words, the verbal,
like if there's closed captioning, what
I'm saying, that's the most important.
533
00:32:27,245 --> 00:32:33,224
Some people think the voice vocal, the
sound of my voice, and then something
visual, what they see of someone.
534
00:32:34,475 --> 00:32:37,594
And then what we do is we do an exercise
to show them the power of visual.
535
00:32:38,045 --> 00:32:41,565
And they realize that we do follow
visual the power of the visual
536
00:32:41,595 --> 00:32:45,365
and the numbers are specifically
verbal is 7 percent vocal.
537
00:32:45,365 --> 00:32:52,244
I think it's 37 38 percent and then
visual 55 percent change the math.
538
00:32:52,244 --> 00:32:53,204
I'm not a great math.
539
00:32:53,404 --> 00:32:54,495
I say psychology.
540
00:32:55,115 --> 00:32:55,915
I think your listeners
541
00:32:56,304 --> 00:32:57,814
are our audience are accountants.
542
00:32:57,815 --> 00:32:59,495
They may correct everything you just said.
543
00:32:59,635 --> 00:33:00,385
They sure did.
544
00:33:00,405 --> 00:33:03,975
And so I apologize to your audience,
but they could do the numbers correctly.
545
00:33:03,975 --> 00:33:05,025
But you get the gist of it.
546
00:33:05,285 --> 00:33:07,455
Now, those numbers aren't from us.
547
00:33:07,495 --> 00:33:11,615
They're 30 years old from Albert,
Moravian, a professor at UCLA.
548
00:33:12,335 --> 00:33:14,055
And he wrote a book
called Silent Messages.
549
00:33:14,785 --> 00:33:20,565
And it's really based on an
inconsistent message, meaning when I
am inconsistent, what will you believe?
550
00:33:21,064 --> 00:33:24,795
And the studies show that if
I'm inconsistent, you'll believe
551
00:33:24,885 --> 00:33:27,645
what you see most when it comes
to trust and believability.
552
00:33:28,175 --> 00:33:32,645
Meaning if I'm saying I'm excited
to be here, I can't wait to talk
to you and have this session.
553
00:33:33,020 --> 00:33:37,560
But I say it with a serious face and I
say it with a monotone and I look away.
554
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:38,700
I can't wait to be here.
555
00:33:38,810 --> 00:33:39,790
I'm really excited.
556
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:41,859
The question is, what will you believe?
557
00:33:41,879 --> 00:33:42,910
You'll believe what you see.
558
00:33:43,089 --> 00:33:44,019
Secondly, what you hear.
559
00:33:44,890 --> 00:33:50,329
Lastly, the words that I say and
my point tied into an inconsistent
560
00:33:50,329 --> 00:33:56,630
message and this challenge of showing
you care or showing your heart.
561
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,110
Most business communications, most
communications is inconsistent.
562
00:34:01,860 --> 00:34:05,270
And the work we do, we're just
honestly, you know, in addition to
563
00:34:05,270 --> 00:34:08,450
the backyard barbecue, all we're
trying to do is make you consistent.
564
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:11,400
If you're consistent, we
have no role, we have no job.
565
00:34:12,720 --> 00:34:16,220
Chapter 2 of our book, I think we
called it, Business Communication Sucks.
566
00:34:17,410 --> 00:34:19,400
Because it's inconsistent.
567
00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:22,029
We say one thing, but sound
and look a different way.
568
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:23,990
And so we're just trying
to be more consistent.
569
00:34:24,180 --> 00:34:26,430
So that ties into harsh feedback.
570
00:34:26,985 --> 00:34:31,615
If you want to show you care,
there's a great book by Kim
Scott called Radical Candor.
571
00:34:31,615 --> 00:34:32,785
I recommend everyone read it.
572
00:34:33,425 --> 00:34:40,124
And many of my clients like commit to it,
but it's the idea and they share a good
story that I think gets to the gist of it.
573
00:34:40,164 --> 00:34:43,775
It's a Sheryl Sandberg story
when she was at Facebook.
574
00:34:43,865 --> 00:34:49,205
She might've been on Google, forget,
but basically she had a team member
that um, didn't know too much.
575
00:34:49,605 --> 00:34:50,835
And use too many fillers.
576
00:34:51,375 --> 00:34:53,605
And she said, she gave them feedback.
577
00:34:54,445 --> 00:34:54,805
Heads up.
578
00:34:54,825 --> 00:34:58,055
You use too many fillers and
it affects how you come across.
579
00:34:58,094 --> 00:34:58,545
All right.
580
00:34:58,945 --> 00:34:59,315
I get it.
581
00:34:59,315 --> 00:34:59,685
Okay.
582
00:35:00,450 --> 00:35:01,890
And show how to come over the top.
583
00:35:01,910 --> 00:35:02,940
Say, no, you don't get it.
584
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:04,590
You don't sound smart.
585
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,180
You, it takes away your credibility.
586
00:35:06,180 --> 00:35:09,360
I'm worried about like, there's
a sense of care that came.
587
00:35:09,430 --> 00:35:10,740
Now that's radical candor.
588
00:35:11,710 --> 00:35:15,810
The employee felt the care,
felt wanting them to be better.
589
00:35:15,820 --> 00:35:17,379
Like this is for you, not for me.
590
00:35:18,065 --> 00:35:19,025
That's radical candor.
591
00:35:19,095 --> 00:35:22,425
So that ties into showing how you feel.
592
00:35:22,495 --> 00:35:23,565
That's a consistent message.
593
00:35:24,765 --> 00:35:25,765
Ben, it's funny you mentioned that.
594
00:35:25,765 --> 00:35:27,235
I pointed to it right here behind me.
595
00:35:27,235 --> 00:35:29,365
I actually have that
book on my stand here.
596
00:35:29,365 --> 00:35:30,485
It is a great book.
597
00:35:30,925 --> 00:35:34,275
So Ben, something you said there
that I think is critically important.
598
00:35:34,285 --> 00:35:36,424
You talked about the person receiving
599
00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:44,870
If someone knows or they go into a
situation where they are getting the kind
of feedback that maybe they didn't want
600
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:50,959
to hear, what guidance would you have for
them just to help create a win scenario?
601
00:35:50,970 --> 00:35:56,420
Because sometimes, let me just share
it this way, Ben, in my early on,
when my coach was giving me that
602
00:35:56,420 --> 00:36:01,339
kind of feedback, I immediately went
up to a wall and would start to try
to justify the things that I did.
603
00:36:01,990 --> 00:36:05,580
And it was absolutely not receiving
the feedback, and it actually probably
604
00:36:05,580 --> 00:36:08,610
killed the conversation instead of
encouraging that kind of conversation.
605
00:36:08,610 --> 00:36:14,489
So what guidance would you have to
those that are receiving that kind of
feedback to help them be more successful?
606
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,609
Don't forget the why.
607
00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:21,599
I think what we do as communicators
or as those giving the harsh feedback.
608
00:36:22,030 --> 00:36:26,600
We forget to give them the why, and
the why is really showing the care.
609
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,610
Otherwise we'll get tackled.
610
00:36:28,750 --> 00:36:30,320
Heath, you're doing this wrong.
611
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,760
You can't be doing this.
612
00:36:32,090 --> 00:36:32,789
You got to fix that.
613
00:36:34,009 --> 00:36:35,180
Now there's no why in that.
614
00:36:36,530 --> 00:36:41,209
Heath, if you fix this, we're going to
be able to get you to that VP level,
because at that point you're going to
615
00:36:41,209 --> 00:36:45,880
have a lot more people and here's what
it's going to look like when you get
there, but this is what's holding back.
616
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:51,450
And this is what I'd love to help
you get through to get you at that
VP level in the next 12 months.
617
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:59,630
There's the why that makes you care more
that gets me showing you I'm trying to
groom you and I care about you Heath
618
00:36:59,910 --> 00:37:07,210
versus just fix us and that's where
you know you bring up nice and a lot of
people are afraid to bring up those harsh
619
00:37:07,210 --> 00:37:18,020
conversations those harsh things of what
to fix and so say whatever company and add
the word nice after that's a common term.
620
00:37:18,650 --> 00:37:19,500
Decor nice.
621
00:37:20,095 --> 00:37:22,995
We at Decker, we're nice to
people, and so we don't give that.
622
00:37:23,305 --> 00:37:25,085
So name a company and then add nice to it.
623
00:37:25,125 --> 00:37:28,434
And that's pretty consistent because
people don't want to give that feedback.
624
00:37:28,435 --> 00:37:30,945
But if you add the why,
it changes everything.
625
00:37:31,745 --> 00:37:32,715
Yeah, you have to, Ben.
626
00:37:32,745 --> 00:37:37,284
I think it's, nearly impossible for anyone
to get better if we're not having those
627
00:37:37,284 --> 00:37:40,695
kinds of conversations with each other
and then receiving that kind of feedback.
628
00:37:41,155 --> 00:37:46,545
So, Ben, as we are close to
wrapping up our time here, one
thing we like to ask every guest.
629
00:37:47,255 --> 00:37:50,885
Maybe a resource, whether that's
a book or a podcast or whatever it
630
00:37:50,905 --> 00:37:54,805
may be that's really just made a
significant impact on your own journey.
631
00:37:55,165 --> 00:37:58,105
Do you have any recommendations
for our listeners?
632
00:37:59,215 --> 00:38:01,425
I have a couple.
633
00:38:01,425 --> 00:38:05,464
I mean, with the podcast that you can
sign up for, everyone is different.
634
00:38:05,474 --> 00:38:08,825
A lot of people take walks and
drive a car and listen to podcasts.
635
00:38:09,175 --> 00:38:14,805
I'm not at that point yet, but I
have many peers and clients that
do that, which I think is awesome.
636
00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:22,370
I tie up to Twitter and acts like
feeds, little morsels of wisdom.
637
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:24,410
I find inspiration.
638
00:38:25,090 --> 00:38:31,400
So if you can find that, do that,
sign up for that, find ways that it
fills you up, that it comes to you.
639
00:38:31,420 --> 00:38:39,550
Cause a lot of times we don't go to it,
but from a super biased perspective, Bert,
which he's my father, I call him Bert.
640
00:38:39,550 --> 00:38:40,930
We've been in business for 20 years.
641
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:42,540
Bert Decker wrote a book.
642
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,470
You've got to be believed to be heard.
643
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,810
I think it's a, classic as far
as so much of what you and I have
644
00:38:48,810 --> 00:38:52,200
talked about, he says, how to
communicate, how important is it?
645
00:38:52,410 --> 00:38:59,740
And it's basically think about your
accounts in CPA firms and advisors that
you've got to be believed to be heard.
646
00:38:59,919 --> 00:39:02,454
Think about what they say
to clients, what it means.
647
00:39:02,635 --> 00:39:06,565
For their finances to tweak, you've
got to be believed to be heard.
648
00:39:07,155 --> 00:39:10,925
So that means they got to think about
their communications to be heard.
649
00:39:11,345 --> 00:39:13,115
Everything we're talking
about matters to them.
650
00:39:14,684 --> 00:39:16,285
An additional one is I'm a huge fan.
651
00:39:16,285 --> 00:39:18,235
I mentioned this earlier
of Chip and Dan Heath.
652
00:39:18,615 --> 00:39:21,645
They wrote a great bestseller, which
is one of the best messaging books.
653
00:39:21,654 --> 00:39:24,065
I think of made to stick.
654
00:39:24,655 --> 00:39:27,725
It's even memorable in how it looks,
it's orange with duct tape across.
655
00:39:28,405 --> 00:39:32,465
We partnered years ago with
them and created a Deckard May
District messaging program.
656
00:39:32,945 --> 00:39:36,115
Because they liked our grid and
we love their success principles.
657
00:39:36,585 --> 00:39:40,395
But they've wrote, written books
on, on, with Switch, Upstream,
658
00:39:40,815 --> 00:39:44,615
thinking about business, change
management, how to fix problems.
659
00:39:45,055 --> 00:39:45,394
I think.
660
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:52,050
They have a great way to get people
to think, but Malcolm Gladwell
books, those are, things that
661
00:39:52,050 --> 00:39:52,240
are my
662
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:52,630
go to
663
00:39:53,380 --> 00:39:54,030
very good, Ben.
664
00:39:54,030 --> 00:40:00,269
Well, as we wrap up here with our
time, if someone wanted to reach you,
what would be the best way to do that?
665
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:02,820
Well, I don't know our, website,
666
00:40:02,980 --> 00:40:03,230
decker.
667
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:03,730
com.
668
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:05,280
I'm not afraid of people.
669
00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:09,740
Shout out to me, I'll give them,
I think my email is somewhere
on our website, ben at decker.
670
00:40:09,930 --> 00:40:10,130
com.
671
00:40:10,130 --> 00:40:14,960
It's not that crazy, hard
to figure out, but I think.
672
00:40:15,435 --> 00:40:19,925
People can get better in communications
and finding a way to keep it as an
673
00:40:19,925 --> 00:40:23,915
intentional way because it, Bert used
to put this at the bottom of his email.
674
00:40:24,335 --> 00:40:28,284
The effectiveness of your communications
determines the effectiveness of your life.
675
00:40:29,185 --> 00:40:31,045
And you, started out talking about that.
676
00:40:31,114 --> 00:40:33,444
And I think that's really validating.
677
00:40:33,455 --> 00:40:35,375
You brought up Little League and kids.
678
00:40:35,975 --> 00:40:36,505
It's true.
679
00:40:36,595 --> 00:40:37,735
It goes into board meetings.
680
00:40:37,735 --> 00:40:38,825
It goes into spouses.
681
00:40:38,865 --> 00:40:47,114
It goes into so many things that we
operate on a daily basis, and it's not
just presentation skills or soft skills.
682
00:40:47,175 --> 00:40:51,095
These are mandatory that we have to
apply to our world and everything we do.
683
00:40:51,115 --> 00:40:54,944
So, yeah, I think just our website and
explore and figure out what you need.
684
00:40:54,945 --> 00:40:55,155
But.
685
00:40:55,610 --> 00:40:56,300
Read the book.
686
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:58,880
Just stay in the process
of getting better.
687
00:40:59,140 --> 00:41:00,030
That's what it's about.
688
00:41:00,650 --> 00:41:01,360
Very good, Ben.
689
00:41:01,370 --> 00:41:04,009
Well, I love that you said the
process of getting better, because
690
00:41:04,009 --> 00:41:07,540
I don't think any of us can probably
ever be perfect at communicating.
691
00:41:07,540 --> 00:41:11,190
So it is a process, and we continue
to learn and continue to improve.
692
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:14,259
So, Ben, I greatly appreciate
the time you've invested today.
693
00:41:14,540 --> 00:41:17,790
I continue to learn every time I talk
to you, so I'm grateful for that.
694
00:41:18,135 --> 00:41:20,675
Um, Ben, I look forward to our
next conversation at some point.
695
00:41:20,825 --> 00:41:21,785
Thank you to our listeners.
696
00:41:22,105 --> 00:41:23,005
And we'll talk to you soon.
697
00:41:23,435 --> 00:41:24,245
Thank you for having me.
698
00:41:26,025 --> 00:41:28,644
Thanks for joining us on
the Upstream Leader Podcast.
699
00:41:29,135 --> 00:41:33,174
We hope today's episode has enriched
your understanding of what it takes
700
00:41:33,204 --> 00:41:36,454
to become a high performing leader
in the accounting profession.
701
00:41:37,235 --> 00:41:43,525
If you'd like to hear more episodes,
Subscribe on your favorite podcasting
app and visit our website where
702
00:41:43,525 --> 00:41:48,115
you'll find full show notes and
more the upstream leader dot com
703
00:41:57,025 --> 00:41:59,684
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