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Reverend Dr. Roger Ross, who is an author of a
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couple of books. A few years ago, he had meet the good
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people, which describes people in the church. And today we're
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going to be talking with him about his new book called
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comeback, and he'll get into the details of that book in a
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minute. Roger is a director of congregational excellence, in
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Missouri annual conference, a United Methodist Church
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responsibility with revitalization, revitalizing
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congregations in Missouri, but he's also a pastor in Illinois,
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and a former church planner, and my good personal friend, Roger,
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welcome to United Methodist people podcast.
Roger Ross:
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Thanks, Brad is great to be a part of this
Roger Ross:
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again.
Brad Miller:
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Awesome, awesome, my friend. Well, you I've been a
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person who has been involved with the life of the church for
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some time and in different ways and helping get things
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responding to the needs of the church. And one of the needs of
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the church is helping people to understand their personal
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relationship to God and their personal relationship to the
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church, and to deal with things that are happening in their
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life. And it just seems to me that you've been doing a lot of
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them. But we're going to talk today about this new book you
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have come out that's just come out called the comeback. So tell
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me, why did you write come back?
Roger Ross:
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I gotta be honest with you, Brad. It really caught
Roger Ross:
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me off guard. In January, actually. Now in July of 2019. I
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went on a Friday, silent prayer retreats. And about three days
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in, God whispered something. There was no audible voice, just
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an impression, write about comebacks. And instantly, I knew
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that that was not because I was an expert. But because I needed
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one. I was on that retreat, because I had had some hard
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falls in my own life. And even though by our appearances, it
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may have looked as if I'd recovered. During that time
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away, I realized how much further I had to go. So just as
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a spiritual exercise, I took about an hour and jotted down a
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few ideas on a legal pad, but how to come back. Now I wanted
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to figure out what that whole journey might look like,
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especially for my own sake. But the more I thought about it, I
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was drawn to my favorite passage in the Bible, which is Jesus
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story of the prodigal son, because that's an epic comeback.
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And that was good. You know, I kind of had the initial
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framework of the journey and left there went on to other
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things. But it didn't leave me. You know, about a month after
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the retreat, I took out that legal pad, reviewed a few things
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I'd written made some changes, put it away again, month later.
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Now since September, did same thing took it out, played with a
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little bit. At this point, I began to realize, you know,
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this, this could be a book. But I also realized at this rate, it
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could take me 10 years to write it, you know,
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writing so goes that way, I know those for me,
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sometimes you're lucky. You get that initial burst in it. Oh, my
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gosh, he drags on. So
Roger Ross:
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absolutely. So I I had a little come to Jesus
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moment. Right, then actually, it's like, well, if I'm gonna
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take this command that I heard on that retreat seriously, I'm
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going to have to talk to somebody about this. And I'm not
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kidding, you register. Like within days of that little
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moment. My editor of the former book at Abington, Connie Stella,
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sent me an email I hadn't heard from Connie in over two years.
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And that was about Thursday, Thursday afternoon about 430.
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And I just took that as a sign. So by 525, I replied to her to
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say that I wasn't going to be at the event that she was emailing
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me about so that we could maybe catch up. But I did have this
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idea for a new book. And I threw it out to her. I mean, all five
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paragraphs, short paragraphs, and I'm thinking she is never
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going to go for this. I mean, this this was not an elevator
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pitch. This was like a revolving door pitch. I mean, it was in
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and out, boom, just scalp. And tomorrow, almost
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a reaction type of thing. It sounds like,
Roger Ross:
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yeah, yeah. And so to Mike will total surprise. She
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liked it. And by October, I was writing the book.
Unknown:
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Here you go, man.
Roger Ross:
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So I couldn't plan that really. And it was so
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different from my first experience of trying to get a
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book published. I mean, this was just like, falling off a lawn. I
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thought maybe somebody had drugged her. I did. I did. I
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didn't know how all that could have happened. So but I realized
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that, you know if, if I needed this, maybe they're reasons I
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don't understand that God must really want me to write about
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comebacks.
Brad Miller:
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You think that you mentioned how you had your own
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issues or setbacks and other have a comeback. You got to have
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a setback? Do you think that the setbacks that you experience are
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resonate with the setbacks that other people are experiencing,
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especially as we are dealing with the ramifications of the
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pandemic, which we've been experiencing? And all the things
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come around with ads? Are there some ways that your experience
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can resonate with the experiences of other people but
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having?
Roger Ross:
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Yeah, I really think so. Because that's just the
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nature of life. I mean, one night, I remember a number of
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years ago, when our son was young, we read a little league
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baseball game and, and he was in the batter's box, and they had a
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full count, you know, three balls, two strikes. And as we
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waited breathlessly, for that next pitch, his young friend was
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sitting next to me said, Well, one thing's for sure. Something
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is gonna happen.
Brad Miller:
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Well, there you go.
Roger Ross:
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Yeah. And my wife and I have laughed about that
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for years ever since, you know, you don't have to live very long
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to know that something is gonna happen in your life. Right? And
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oftentimes, those are good things. Sure, right. I mean, you
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can go through stretches a life that things are going so well,
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you begin to think it's always gonna be like that. But sooner
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or later, a fall occurs. And that may be due to forces beyond
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our control, like you were talking about it is a pandemic,
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disease, racism, a natural disaster? Or it could be because
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of missteps of our own making. Yes. Either way, when something
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like that happens when a fall comes, we have a choice. Are we
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going to allow that fall to define and fetus? Are we going
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to choose to dig deeper ignite hole and mount a comeback? Yes,
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I think add adversity is a given in my
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research and my thinking and the book, I'm writing it, I kind of
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break it down into five DS, which are depression, and debt
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as an financial issues, divorce as a relationship, issues of
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disease, like the pandemic, things like that. And then
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death, either your own impending death or death of a loved one,
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those one form or another, those all happen to all of us, but how
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we deal with it makes all the difference in you had something,
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some things happen to you that, that I'll that you chose to
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process by going on a five day retreat, and started to write a
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book. So you took some action. Tell me a bit about the actions
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that you think that some people get stuck, you know, when
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adversity ism, they get stuck, and you took some action? So
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tell me about the process about what you are advocating that
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maybe you did or others do to speak to the fall to what are
Brad Miller:
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you going to do about it now?
Roger Ross:
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Yeah, that's that was what was helpful about
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looking into the scriptures, in particular into the prodigal son
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story. And just looking at it from the perspective of someone
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who had a fall now with regard to the prodigal son, that was a
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fall of his own making. Yes, you know, but that's what, that's
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what's common to all of humanity, that, as I mentioned,
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moment ago, sooner or later, everybody's going to have a
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fall. So then the only question is, what are you going to do as
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a result, so that really the first, the first step in a
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comeback journey is you have a fall. And you know what, this is
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the one that nobody likes, nobody wants, but it's just
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going to come sooner or later. And we have to figure out what
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we're going to do as a result. The other steps on that journey
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just to hit there just for a second, we'll go too
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far. And some people have already kind of prepare
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themselves. It says that yeah, that's the life reality. But
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some people when they have a fall, he hits him so hard. It is
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a total a complete shock, isn't it? It just takes them off to
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the wheels of memory.
Roger Ross:
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Oh, absolutely. You know, it's it's, it's like
Roger Ross:
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following the wrong way and having the breath knocked out.
Roger Ross:
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He you know, he's when you're gasping for breath. And, and you
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don't know why all of a sudden, you can't breathe when just a
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few seconds ago, you could. It's it's a very painful and
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disorienting experience. And in fact, what what I decided to do
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in the book was not just talk about the steps that a person
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would take after they have a fall, but also put some kind of
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transforming practice, in connection with each of the
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steps to help people to know what to do when that happens. So
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when when you have a fall and it just knocks the breath right
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out. You don't know what to do next. And you're disoriented,
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you're confused. You have a myriad of different emotions.
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The the transforming practice of that first step is simply to
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listen to your emotions. There's all kinds of things that are
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going on inside of you. And oftentimes, they're kind of a
Roger Ross:
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jumbled mixed up mess. But if you don't spend some time just
Roger Ross:
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quietly listening to your emotions, they're going to take
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you on a ride that you don't want to go.
Brad Miller:
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Well, it's very interesting that you say that,
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because I've been reading a lot of stuff recently about things
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like flow and about focus, and how there's so many distractions
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in the world right now, that tend to help us get into denial
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of dealing with feelings and dealing with this stuff. And a
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lot of people try to get them to jump into all these
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distractions. And what you're saying is you got the action
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step, the act the the poor point of application is to pay
Brad Miller:
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attention and listen, not tonight.
Roger Ross:
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Yeah, that's, that's really the transforming
Roger Ross:
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practice. One of the things I discovered as I was looking at
Roger Ross:
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these different comeback steps is that there are ancient
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practices that have been a part of the Christian faith, and in
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some cases, some other forms of faith, for centuries, that
Roger Ross:
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people have put into practice to help them to be able to deal
Roger Ross:
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with these inevitable falls that are coming our way. And one of
Roger Ross:
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them, that is fair, I mean, it's all through the Scriptures.
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Jesus is a classic example of someone who was very attuned to
Roger Ross:
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very aware of his feelings, and able to express them
Roger Ross:
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appropriately in the moment. And frankly, most of us are not like
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that. Most of us are unaware of what we're feeling at any given
Roger Ross:
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time. And we do our best to numb our emotions to try to escape
Roger Ross:
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the pain, or just ignore them for fear that they might slow us
Roger Ross:
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down.
Brad Miller:
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And that is where we have to then continue to
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apply these other processes that you have mentioned, or the
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practices of connecting to other people, mentors, and such who
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can help us and tell us what about maybe some of the things
Brad Miller:
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you did, or maybe you advocate in terms of connecting to guides
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or other people who can speak into our life?
Roger Ross:
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Yeah, so after the fall, really, the next step is
Roger Ross:
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to kind of come to yourself, that's the thing that you see in
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the prodigal son story. I mean, he, you know, he was off
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marching to his own drum beat, and he was on a great journey of
Roger Ross:
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self discovery. And then all of a sudden, he realized, Oh, my
Roger Ross:
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gosh, I've gotten myself into a much deeper water than I can get
Roger Ross:
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out. And he had a little, which call it come to Jesus moments
Roger Ross:
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where he came to himself and realized, you know, what, I, I'm
Roger Ross:
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in deep doo doo here, and I don't know what to do next. I
Roger Ross:
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just know that I can't stay where I am. You know, it's what
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some people talk about with regard to hitting bottom. Yes,
Roger Ross:
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you know, and, and once that happens, you have to make kind
Roger Ross:
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of a deep internal decision, like I'm not staying here, I
Roger Ross:
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refuse to wallow in this amount, emotional slop for the rest of
Roger Ross:
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my life. I was made for more than this. And, and just
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grasping that one truth sets you on a new course. So the
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transforming practice for that is simply to engage in solitude
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and stillness. You know, it's, it's taking time to be alone
Roger Ross:
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with God, because one of the things that we are exceptionally
Roger Ross:
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good at in American life, American culture is doing. We
Roger Ross:
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are not good at being. And I'm like the chief center with all
Roger Ross:
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this. I mean, I've I've realized that in my own life, and one of
Roger Ross:
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the one of the truths that I've been embracing in recent years,
Roger Ross:
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is that beam proceeds doing. And if you get that out of water,
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then you're very unlikely to have the kind of self awareness
Roger Ross:
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necessary to take the steps that will bring you back to the life
Roger Ross:
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you
Brad Miller:
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were meant for. That's awesome. That's awesome.
Brad Miller:
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And then the, but it's interesting, you know, you've
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kind of got some self reflection there about what you do or don't
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do. And yet, what seems to be really transformative to you was
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taking that five day Silent Retreat, which would be just out
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of the realm of question for so many people. And so what are
Brad Miller:
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some things that you think people can do they need to quiet
Brad Miller:
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but what are some of the practices? What are some of the
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disciplines that people can apply their lives in a regular
Brad Miller:
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basis? That is a doable thing that that they can do, or maybe
Brad Miller:
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people or resources that they can connect up with?
Roger Ross:
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Yeah, so with regard to to solitude and stillness, we
Roger Ross:
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solitude is simply being alone via taking kind of taking
Roger Ross:
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yourself away from others and away from other distractions so
Roger Ross:
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you can be alone with God and Jesus practices all through the
Roger Ross:
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Scriptures and you You see other great leaders of faith. Now
Roger Ross:
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through the Scriptures that do this as well, I mean, politics
Roger Ross:
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off on a journey for like three years all by himself. I mean,
Roger Ross:
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it's just, I mean, they're they're kind of extreme
Roger Ross:
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examples, in some cases. I mean, Jesus starts out as ministry by
Roger Ross:
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going on a 40 day, not just fast, but a journey by himself
Roger Ross:
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out into the wilderness, which, you know, here's the desert,
Roger Ross:
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yes. And not, not surprisingly, he gets tempted by the devil
Roger Ross:
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during that time. So all kinds of spiritual things happen,
Roger Ross:
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sometimes good, sometimes not so good. When you put yourself in
Roger Ross:
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position where you are in solitude and stillness, you
Roger Ross:
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know, silence before the Lord. Now, you don't I mean, those are
Roger Ross:
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kind of extreme examples. And I don't recommend anyone to start
Roger Ross:
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out that way. You know, occasional joggers, don't go out
Roger Ross:
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and run marathons, it's not a good idea. But what anyone can
Roger Ross:
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do is take their phone or the timer that's on their watch,
Roger Ross:
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instead of pretend minutes, and go in a room by themselves
Roger Ross:
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without any other distractions, and be alone with God. That is a
Roger Ross:
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powerful discipline, just 10 minutes. And, and if you're like
Roger Ross:
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me, naturally, what people are going to experience is they'll
Roger Ross:
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start having all kinds of distractions hit their minds,
Roger Ross:
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you know, all the things that they have to do that day, people
Roger Ross:
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need to call emails they need to send on and on. But one of the
Roger Ross:
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things I found to be really helpful in those times for
Roger Ross:
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solitude is just pick a word, or a phrase, and say it over and
Roger Ross:
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over silently to yourself, like other, or father, or Jesus, or I
Roger Ross:
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received your grace, or, or the one on one of them I use today
Roger Ross:
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was, have mercy on me, have mercy on me. And mercy on, you
Roger Ross:
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say that same little phrase or word over and over again, just
Roger Ross:
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as a way to focus your mind and heart so that you can call them
Roger Ross:
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and still yourself on the inside, to be able to be present
Roger Ross:
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to the presence?
Brad Miller:
00:17:14
I think one of the things that if what you're
Brad Miller:
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seeing there, Roger, is that an author of your book, he talked
Brad Miller:
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about the practice the application of this. And so for
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instance, where you're talking about with stillness, and
Brad Miller:
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meditative techniques, is, oftentimes the more you do it,
Brad Miller:
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the better you get at it, you know, the first several times
Brad Miller:
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you try it, you do it, you know, it is that chaos in the mind,
Brad Miller:
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the emails and all the things to do. But if you you know, if you
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do it more on a regular basis with breathing, or a mantra, or
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a word or a phrase or breathing, exercise then becomes more part
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of who you are. And you become much more productive as well. At
Brad Miller:
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least that's what a lot of the productivity coaches are
Brad Miller:
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teaching these days.
Roger Ross:
00:18:07
Yeah, I mean, something that's really popular
Roger Ross:
00:18:09
in our culture right now is mindfulness. You hear people
Roger Ross:
00:18:13
talk about that quite often not mindfulness is another way of
Roger Ross:
00:18:16
talking about meditative prayer. Yes, I mean, mindfulness is just
Roger Ross:
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Christian meditation has been going on for many centuries.
Brad Miller:
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They're just kind of a secular, a secular framing
Brad Miller:
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of that practice, I believe I've been reading some mindfulness
Brad Miller:
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type material recently. And yeah, I agree with you.
Roger Ross:
00:18:36
So I found that to be exceedingly important for me
Roger Ross:
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to be able to, again, kind of not only put being before doing,
Roger Ross:
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but also to be in the presence of God. Because it you know,
Roger Ross:
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that there's not Jesus said, we are to abide in him. Right? Not
Roger Ross:
00:19:00
not to do things for him necessarily, but we starts by
Roger Ross:
00:19:04
abiding in him, you know, and when we're abiding in him, when
Roger Ross:
00:19:08
we're connected to the vine, that's when the fruit can be
Roger Ross:
00:19:12
born in our lives. But when we're off doing and frantically
Roger Ross:
00:19:16
going in one direction or another 100 different directions
Roger Ross:
00:19:19
at one time, there's very little binding going on. And so small
Roger Ross:
00:19:22
wonder that there's not very much fruit that's being born.
Brad Miller:
00:19:27
Speaking of the fruit and success and or
Brad Miller:
00:19:29
whatever you want to call it, their the productivity. I would
Brad Miller:
00:19:33
notice that Roger use a lot of sports analogies and analogies
Brad Miller:
00:19:36
from the lives of people who have had, you know, basically
Brad Miller:
00:19:39
hit a bottom had to come back and what they experienced on the
Brad Miller:
00:19:42
way back our experience, once they came, came back, and then
Brad Miller:
00:19:45
the theme of your book is come back and of course, you know,
Brad Miller:
00:19:48
one analogy is for us where there's been some body behind it
Brad Miller:
00:19:52
a basketball game or whatever it would be had come back and the
Brad Miller:
00:19:54
exhilaration, the focus it takes to come back and the
Brad Miller:
00:19:57
exhilaration of the victory and you also image about some, some
Brad Miller:
00:20:01
people that you have had experiences with who have had
Brad Miller:
00:20:04
that as well, some pretty tough situations and come back. So
Brad Miller:
00:20:08
tell syllabus more about examples of how this is out
Brad Miller:
00:20:12
there, whether it's some sports analogy or some person about how
Brad Miller:
00:20:17
the focus that they had to take in order to turn it around, and
Brad Miller:
00:20:20
the exhilaration of the victory.
Roger Ross:
00:20:23
Yeah, so there are several examples of people that
Roger Ross:
00:20:27
use them the, in the book that are, you know, famous people
Roger Ross:
00:20:31
that most of us would know, somebody like Tiger Woods is a
Roger Ross:
00:20:35
great example of someone who had a disastrous fall, very public
Roger Ross:
00:20:39
fall back in 2009. And how over essentially a 10 year period, he
Roger Ross:
00:20:46
clawed and scratched his way back to finally then eventually
Roger Ross:
00:20:52
win the 2019. Masters, which was in, in many sports writers,
Roger Ross:
00:21:00
minds and sports experts minds, probably the biggest, if not one
Roger Ross:
00:21:07
of the biggest about the biggest sports turnaround in history,
Roger Ross:
00:21:10
because this guy, he had gone through, I think three different
Roger Ross:
00:21:15
back surgeries before that. He had basically said, Look, I'm
Roger Ross:
00:21:21
done two years before that, he had told people at the Masters
Roger Ross:
00:21:24
in 2017, I'm never gonna play again. Certainly not playing at
Roger Ross:
00:21:29
a professional level. But he just kept coming back. And part
Roger Ross:
00:21:35
of that was, you know, he, he had to listen to his emotions,
Roger Ross:
00:21:39
he had to engage in solitude and stillness, for sure. But he also
Roger Ross:
00:21:41
had to seek wise counsel. And that's the third step, you have
Roger Ross:
00:21:44
to find a guide. And he had a whole team of guides in his
Roger Ross:
00:21:49
life, that would help him to be able to make the journey back,
Roger Ross:
00:21:54
you know, on a medical level, on an emotional spiritual level, on
Roger Ross:
00:21:59
a relational level, he had a whole team of people that were
Roger Ross:
00:22:03
kind of desert dedicated to helping him make that turn. But
Roger Ross:
00:22:09
you know, even with wise counsel, at some point, you'll
Roger Ross:
00:22:12
have to just make a plan and start taking action. You know,
Roger Ross:
00:22:16
you you have to realize this isn't going to happen all by
Roger Ross:
00:22:20
itself.
Brad Miller:
00:22:21
You got to work, you got to get out.
Roger Ross:
00:22:23
Yeah, you have to get after it. Absolutely. So,
Roger Ross:
00:22:27
like anything in life, I mean, you know, the the things that
Roger Ross:
00:22:32
are most important to us, we invest in, yes. And I, you know,
Roger Ross:
00:22:38
this book didn't write itself. You know, it may have been
Roger Ross:
00:22:42
inspired, initially back in July 2019. But it took a lot of
Roger Ross:
00:22:48
hours, a lot of time, you know, when I could have been doing
Roger Ross:
00:22:52
other things. But I sense the need to do this, even if, even
Roger Ross:
00:22:57
if just my mom, my sister wrote it, or read it better. I knew, I
Roger Ross:
00:23:01
knew that I needed to write it, because I needed to work out
Roger Ross:
00:23:04
some things in my own heart in my own life. And part part of
Roger Ross:
00:23:09
that was making a plan and taking action. Because, you
Roger Ross:
00:23:13
know, basically, the two kinds of people in life, you know,
Roger Ross:
00:23:16
there are people that like to plan their people like to act.
Roger Ross:
00:23:21
And oftentimes they don't go together, right. But a plan
Roger Ross:
00:23:24
without action is just as ineffective as action without a
Roger Ross:
00:23:28
plan. You you need them both. There's a healthy balance
Brad Miller:
00:23:33
that ends up in effective planning without
Brad Miller:
00:23:35
action is entertainment are an intellectual exercise, you know,
Brad Miller:
00:23:39
it's just not getting anywhere.
Roger Ross:
00:23:42
Right? So I can't remember exactly the quote, but
Roger Ross:
00:23:45
it's something like a dream without a plan is a nightmare.
Roger Ross:
00:23:50
You know, it's just
Brad Miller:
00:23:52
you have your moment of clarity, clarity of
Brad Miller:
00:23:54
decision, do you decide to do something, write a book, come
Brad Miller:
00:23:58
back to when the Masters but then you it doesn't happen
Brad Miller:
00:24:02
instantaneously. You don't choose to do this, you don't
Brad Miller:
00:24:05
choose to have some great accomplishment in life. And it
Brad Miller:
00:24:09
just doesn't happen instantaneous. You got to work
Brad Miller:
00:24:11
at it. And oh, by the way, it doesn't stop or I mean, but as
Brad Miller:
00:24:15
you know, I just use Tiger wizard example. Yeah, he won the
Brad Miller:
00:24:18
Masters a couple years ago. But now we're recording this. And in
Brad Miller:
00:24:23
March of 2021, just a month or so ago, he had a terrible
Brad Miller:
00:24:27
accent. And if he wants to come back, he's gonna have to come
Brad Miller:
00:24:29
back again. Right, Fred?
Roger Ross:
00:24:31
Exactly. That's exactly right. I mean, Tiger, I
Roger Ross:
00:24:34
mean, I've been praying for Tiger Tiger went through a
Roger Ross:
00:24:36
terrible fall, so to speak, in his car accident. And once
Roger Ross:
00:24:42
again, there are grave questions as to whether he's ever going to
Roger Ross:
00:24:46
be able to play golf again. So he'll have to, you'll have to
Roger Ross:
00:24:50
climb this mountain again, so to speak. But but the last part,
Roger Ross:
00:24:55
which I think is the part that most people don't have
Roger Ross:
00:25:00
Appreciate, to come back journey is trusting the process. Once
Roger Ross:
00:25:05
you've gone through these other steps, you've made a plan, you
Roger Ross:
00:25:09
need to take action. This is the part that derails most people,
Roger Ross:
00:25:13
frankly, they choose to make this come back then. And then
Roger Ross:
00:25:18
they get about halfway there. And they get stuck. And they
Roger Ross:
00:25:24
start to struggle, because they start to doubt whether they can
Roger Ross:
00:25:27
actually come back or not. And, and doubt creeps in. And, you
Roger Ross:
00:25:35
know, the thing that I've found in my own life is a doubt is the
Roger Ross:
00:25:39
leading edge of faith. And it's faith, this the unseen secret of
Roger Ross:
00:25:46
turnarounds, you have to believe in things that you can't see yet
Roger Ross:
00:25:51
to be able to make it all the way back. And, and, frankly,
Roger Ross:
00:25:57
without struggle, there's no comeback.
Brad Miller:
00:26:01
Wow. And I think it's very, very true. There's
Brad Miller:
00:26:05
been lots of evidence about people in the middle of whatever
Brad Miller:
00:26:10
they're doing, and just don't make it they give up, I think,
Brad Miller:
00:26:14
you know, during this COVID crisis, we've seen some people
Brad Miller:
00:26:16
who just kind of threw up their hands and said, you know, it's
Brad Miller:
00:26:19
over with, I can't do anything about this and other people, for
Brad Miller:
00:26:22
instance, the medical scientific community, put their put their
Brad Miller:
00:26:26
mind to developing the vaccines and came up with it in a year or
Brad Miller:
00:26:29
so. Whereas what you usually have been a long process and,
Brad Miller:
00:26:34
and I know that there have been some writers who've talked about
Brad Miller:
00:26:37
this, the nature of that, of that draw that will just draw
Brad Miller:
00:26:44
you down, kind of that will that grief, and that will take you
Brad Miller:
00:26:47
down the middle of the though I called them a lazy mediocrity,
Brad Miller:
00:26:50
you get stuck in the middle, and we'll just kill you, which is
Brad Miller:
00:26:54
kill you. And I've tried to think of the word that some
Brad Miller:
00:26:56
writers have used, but we'll just kill you. But you got to
Brad Miller:
00:27:00
get through that time. But what gets you through that time is
Brad Miller:
00:27:02
hope and faith.
Roger Ross:
00:27:03
Right? So I mean, with writers I talk about
Roger Ross:
00:27:06
writer's block, well, you know, writer's block comes right at
Roger Ross:
00:27:09
this time, when, when you've got the plan, you're taking action,
Roger Ross:
00:27:14
and you get, you know, partway there, maybe halfway there, and
Roger Ross:
00:27:17
you just get stuck. And that's when you have to take this final
Roger Ross:
00:27:24
step, which is simply trusting the process. And trusting the
Roger Ross:
00:27:29
process is to say, you know, I can't see the progress I'm
Roger Ross:
00:27:32
making today versus yesterday. I'm not sure that what I do
Roger Ross:
00:27:36
today is going to make that much of a difference by tomorrow. But
Roger Ross:
00:27:40
I just have to trust the process and keep putting one foot in
Roger Ross:
00:27:44
front of the other. And that's what faith is about. Hmm.
Brad Miller:
00:27:47
One of the writers I've read recently about this,
Brad Miller:
00:27:50
he calls a trust of soup, which is where you put all the
Brad Miller:
00:27:54
ingredients into what you're working on. And it's got to come
Brad Miller:
00:27:57
out, but you got to trust the process. You got to keep it
Brad Miller:
00:27:59
still want to keep it going. And trust the process, you're going
Brad Miller:
00:28:01
to come up with something good. Exactly.
Unknown:
00:28:04
Yeah,
Roger Ross:
00:28:04
exactly. And really the the transforming practice
Roger Ross:
00:28:07
for trusting and processes is doing something that's very
Roger Ross:
00:28:09
counterintuitive, especially in our very active mystic American
Roger Ross:
00:28:13
life. And that is embrace patient trust.
Brad Miller:
00:28:18
Factor. I think my bed same writer sets up like
Brad Miller:
00:28:22
embrace the suck, you know, it's going to stay.
Roger Ross:
00:28:24
Yeah, actually, I just read an article about that.
Roger Ross:
00:28:26
I think that was Bernie brown that says that.
Brad Miller:
00:28:29
Yeah, yeah, that was one of the writers I've
Brad Miller:
00:28:32
written, I wish. I wish I could think of this guy that I'm
Brad Miller:
00:28:36
thinking, who is what is what books are called do the work. I
Brad Miller:
00:28:40
can think of the book title though I can't think of the
Brad Miller:
00:28:42
author's name. But he has to do with this process who we're
Brad Miller:
00:28:46
talking about here. But here's what I want to come around to
Brad Miller:
00:28:49
this with you here, Roger is come back where you come back to
Brad Miller:
00:28:55
you're coming back to a good coming back to a good place. So
Brad Miller:
00:28:59
what's the best thing about a comeback? What's the best thing
Brad Miller:
00:29:02
about coming home or coming to that better place?
Roger Ross:
00:29:05
You know, this is the thing that probably
Roger Ross:
00:29:08
surprised me the most about writing to me about writing a
Roger Ross:
00:29:10
book read, because to to, to come back to return to the life
Roger Ross:
00:29:16
you were made for does not necessarily mean that you're
Roger Ross:
00:29:20
going to win the game. Or that you're going to come back out on
Roger Ross:
00:29:25
top with whatever it was that you were, you know, initially
Roger Ross:
00:29:31
shooting for a comeback, you know, really truly understood
Roger Ross:
00:29:36
is, is coming home to who God made you to be. It's realizing
Roger Ross:
00:29:43
that you've been on this long journey when you finally come
Roger Ross:
00:29:45
back home. You're seeing it now with fresh eyes. Like you could
Roger Ross:
00:29:50
never see it before. I mean, think about the prodigal son.
Roger Ross:
00:29:52
When he came back home. He saw home in a way that he had never
Roger Ross:
00:29:57
seen it before and he lived there his whole life. And that's
Roger Ross:
00:30:02
the beauty of a true comeback because it transforms you from
Roger Ross:
00:30:06
the inside. And now you see life in a different way. It
Roger Ross:
00:30:11
tenderizes your heart It provides when a comeback works
Roger Ross:
00:30:15
the way it's supposed to, provides a level of compassion
Roger Ross:
00:30:18
that you could not have had previously, it enables you to,
Roger Ross:
00:30:22
to actually practice humility. I mean, think about the tiger
Roger Ross:
00:30:26
woods that we knew before 2009 and the tiger woods that we know
Roger Ross:
00:30:31
now. I mean, he's really a different man.
Brad Miller:
00:30:36
making a contribution, much more
Brad Miller:
00:30:39
approachable, things like that. So
Roger Ross:
00:30:41
yeah, and really, frankly, much more humble.
Roger Ross:
00:30:45
Because he's faced some of his own inner demons. He's, he's
Roger Ross:
00:30:50
realized some of his limitations. And he's embraced
Roger Ross:
00:30:55
some of his own humanity, some of which was not, you know,
Roger Ross:
00:30:59
particularly a pretty thing to look at. But he's allowed that
Roger Ross:
00:31:05
to kind of be absorbed into who he is now, more fully as more
Roger Ross:
00:31:11
mature, man.
Unknown:
00:31:12
Yes.
Brad Miller:
00:31:13
Well, I've just would, I think we're really what
Brad Miller:
00:31:15
we're talking about, ultimately, here is transformation. You
Brad Miller:
00:31:17
know, transformation, we, we have this point where we're
Brad Miller:
00:31:21
cruising along, and everything seems to be going in one way or
Brad Miller:
00:31:25
another, okay, then we hit a fall. Well, whatever your fall
Brad Miller:
00:31:31
was impacted you greatly. Everyone, many, many people had
Brad Miller:
00:31:35
a fall with a pandemic, other people have a financial issue or
Brad Miller:
00:31:38
moral issue or a issue with health, whatever it is, or with
Brad Miller:
00:31:44
something else, maybe death in the family, and what are you
Brad Miller:
00:31:47
going to do about it? So, but the idea here is to come back
Brad Miller:
00:31:51
home to where you were exactly that place that was where you
Brad Miller:
00:31:56
left, because may that may not be, where God wants you to be
Brad Miller:
00:32:00
the best place to transform to something renewed. And I'm
Brad Miller:
00:32:02
reminded of the biblical stories of emerging to a good place, the
Brad Miller:
00:32:08
promised land, you know, to the 40 days in the wilderness, the
Brad Miller:
00:32:11
40 years in the wilderness, all these stories about
Brad Miller:
00:32:14
transformation takes place, you left something at home, and you
Brad Miller:
00:32:17
come through the storm, you come through the wilderness, you come
Brad Miller:
00:32:21
through this, and you come to a better place. And what you're
Brad Miller:
00:32:24
doing here is helping us to do this through identifying the
Brad Miller:
00:32:28
problem. Getting some mentors along the way, getting to know
Brad Miller:
00:32:33
yourself going into that those quiet places, embracing the the
Brad Miller:
00:32:38
trust, trusting the process, and then celebrating it so good. How
Brad Miller:
00:32:44
to tell if there's one more thing and then we'll let you go
Brad Miller:
00:32:48
here just a few bit, just a minute or two here. Tell us
Brad Miller:
00:32:51
about how you've seen this happen. In others, either in a
Brad Miller:
00:32:55
person you've worked with, or perhaps an organization, you
Brad Miller:
00:32:58
work with an a party, your role is to work with churches, many
Brad Miller:
00:33:02
churches that may be struggling, and we live in a world right now
Brad Miller:
00:33:05
in our United Methodist Church with a lot of churches, and even
Brad Miller:
00:33:08
our denomination is having its share of falls and struggles and
Brad Miller:
00:33:13
dynamics, which are just, you know, painful. It's evolved in
Brad Miller:
00:33:16
many ways. What is your suggestion? Or what is your
Brad Miller:
00:33:19
example of some individuals or organizations that have chosen
Brad Miller:
00:33:25
to do a pass on what what you're what you're talking about here?
Brad Miller:
00:33:29
Well, there's
Roger Ross:
00:33:29
lots of individuals. You know, we've, we've mentioned
Roger Ross:
00:33:33
a couple on the way here, but with regard to an organization,
Roger Ross:
00:33:36
I mean, I know a number of churches that have realized, you
Roger Ross:
00:33:41
know, what, we're in some part of this process that I just
Roger Ross:
00:33:47
outlined his comeback journey that I just outlined. And having
Roger Ross:
00:33:51
an idea of where you are in that journey is hugely important for
Roger Ross:
00:33:55
you to be able to make whatever the next step is for you. I just
Roger Ross:
00:33:59
talked with one of the supervisors of our churches in
Roger Ross:
00:34:04
Missouri, and she told me that there's a church that has had a
Roger Ross:
00:34:09
terrible fall, I mean, terrible financial mismanagement. by half
Roger Ross:
00:34:14
the congregation has left lots of hurt feelings, and you know,
Roger Ross:
00:34:19
just difficult things going on in life that congregation but a
Roger Ross:
00:34:24
new pastor has just been appointed to that church. And
Roger Ross:
00:34:29
for the first time in yours, the people that are left in that
Roger Ross:
00:34:33
church actually have a sense of hope that they could instead of
Roger Ross:
00:34:37
being on a kind of a March, toward decline, and then
Roger Ross:
00:34:43
ultimate death, they now realize you know what, this thing could
Roger Ross:
00:34:48
turn around. We have the possibility of, of taking the
Roger Ross:
00:34:54
fall that we all recognize has happened in our lives
Roger Ross:
00:34:58
collectively as a congregation. And embracing a different
Roger Ross:
00:35:03
journey that would take us to a different destination. So, I
Roger Ross:
00:35:08
mean, that's just that happened just today, I see all kinds of
Roger Ross:
00:35:11
churches that that have that kind of light comeback in their
Roger Ross:
00:35:16
lives, which represents hope listener heart, you know,
Brad Miller:
00:35:21
what I said, you mentioned that I see that as an
Brad Miller:
00:35:23
inflection point, you know, rather than tipping the tipping
Brad Miller:
00:35:26
point of, you know, if we keep going, allowing the demise or
Brad Miller:
00:35:30
allowing the fall to crush us, then we will continue down that
Brad Miller:
00:35:34
slide and the momentum will take us out. But if, in this case,
Brad Miller:
00:35:37
inflection point, a new pastor, but our own lives, we can have
Brad Miller:
00:35:41
our own inflection points to choose to do something about and
Brad Miller:
00:35:43
of course, hurt our own beloved United Methodist Church, we have
Brad Miller:
00:35:46
our own chaos we have our own dilemmas to deal with. And my
Brad Miller:
00:35:51
hope and prayer is that I don't think we're going to ever go
Brad Miller:
00:35:54
back to what we were not too many years ago. And some sort of
Brad Miller:
00:36:00
sensibility of us all getting along, or else on the same
Brad Miller:
00:36:04
track. Something new will emerge in the process the next year or
Brad Miller:
00:36:09
two. But I hope that it's a good thing and hope it's a good thing
Brad Miller:
00:36:12
that we can all emerge to some better place. Do you have any
Brad Miller:
00:36:16
thoughts? you have any thoughts about that at all, before we
Brad Miller:
00:36:18
conclude our conversation?
Roger Ross:
00:36:20
Well, I I do think that we're moving as a United
Roger Ross:
00:36:25
Methodist Church in different directions. And that's not
Roger Ross:
00:36:32
unusual. If you look at our history, we've done that for
Roger Ross:
00:36:35
generations. Now, for the last couple of 100 years, we've been
Roger Ross:
00:36:39
doing that, in the United method, what is now the I love
Roger Ross:
00:36:42
the church, what is Methodism over the course of last couple
Roger Ross:
00:36:44
100 years, 250 years in America. So that that shouldn't be a big
Roger Ross:
00:36:50
surprise to us. What's hard is the the relational changes that
Roger Ross:
00:36:58
will come as a result of that, there, there'll be people that
Roger Ross:
00:37:01
we know and love, that go in different directions, and we're
Roger Ross:
00:37:04
not going to be seeing them near as much are working with them
Roger Ross:
00:37:08
near as closely. And that part's gonna be hard, you know,
Brad Miller:
00:37:12
that's the grief, that's the pain,
Roger Ross:
00:37:15
there's going to be that's, that's that will be the
Roger Ross:
00:37:16
fall for us. Figuring out how to, to process that in an
Roger Ross:
00:37:22
emotionally healthy way, instead of kind of throwing hate bombs
Roger Ross:
00:37:27
at each other, which is what we have had a tendency to do. And
Roger Ross:
00:37:30
you know, I'm at the church, I think will be our biggest
Roger Ross:
00:37:33
challenge and potentially our greatest victory if we can do
Roger Ross:
00:37:38
that.
Brad Miller:
00:37:38
Yes. Well, that's the hope and prayer is having a
Brad Miller:
00:37:42
great victory. And we've been talking here today about having
Brad Miller:
00:37:46
personal victories and victories and local churches and or other
Brad Miller:
00:37:49
organizations and, and your book is all about that making a
Brad Miller:
00:37:53
comeback and getting through these falls and coming to a
Brad Miller:
00:37:56
better place. And it's available at cokesbury. And at Amazon and
Brad Miller:
00:38:01
anyplace else, the books are sold, it's by Abington press.
Brad Miller:
00:38:06
And I commend our folks to check that out. But part of checking
Brad Miller:
00:38:09
out that book is some resources that you have, they're
Brad Miller:
00:38:13
specifically designed for study groups or perhaps for developing
Brad Miller:
00:38:17
lessons. So would you tell us what about the supplemental
Brad Miller:
00:38:20
resources that are available
Unknown:
00:38:22
for the book? comeback?
Roger Ross:
00:38:24
Sure. Thanks, Brad. Actually, as soon as I brought
Roger Ross:
00:38:28
the book out, I had pastors start to ask me, well, could we
Roger Ross:
00:38:31
do this in our church? And would you like also provide a study
Roger Ross:
00:38:37
guide for that? And I said, Well, I hadn't really thought
Roger Ross:
00:38:39
about writing a study guide, but I guess I could. And so a few
Roger Ross:
00:38:44
months after the book came out, the study guide came out as
Roger Ross:
00:38:48
well. And it looks a lot the same, I mean, all you can, you
Roger Ross:
00:38:51
can tell, at the bottom, it says Participant Guide, that's the
Roger Ross:
00:38:53
only difference between the two. But the Participant Guide is
Roger Ross:
00:38:58
based on the ability to kind of take the process the five
Roger Ross:
00:39:04
different steps we've been talking about, and put them into
Roger Ross:
00:39:08
play in a person's life. And they're the study guide can be
Roger Ross:
00:39:13
either used, or the placement guide can be used either as a
Roger Ross:
00:39:15
small group, or it can be done on an individual study basis,
Roger Ross:
00:39:19
either one of those work. And so there's a small group component
Roger Ross:
00:39:23
that kind of leads you through what you would do if you're
Roger Ross:
00:39:26
together with, you know, six 810 older folks. But there's also
Roger Ross:
00:39:30
things that can be done individually by persons, five
Roger Ross:
00:39:35
days out of the week in between the group sessions. So if you're
Roger Ross:
00:39:39
doing say a six session, six week deal, there's plenty of
Roger Ross:
00:39:44
stuff that you can be doing in between for individual studies
Roger Ross:
00:39:48
and to really drive the transforming practices into your
Roger Ross:
00:39:52
life. That's the idea.
Brad Miller:
00:39:54
So there's an implementation and application
Brad Miller:
00:39:56
process for the individual as well as for a group And I
Brad Miller:
00:40:01
assumed that if a pastor Swati wanted to use this as a resource
Brad Miller:
00:40:04
for building a sermon series or something along this line that
Brad Miller:
00:40:07
is perhaps could be helpful in that regard, as well.
Roger Ross:
00:40:10
Absolutely. Yeah, that that was really kind of the
Roger Ross:
00:40:12
idea behind it. I actually had a church, one of the larger
Roger Ross:
00:40:17
churches in Illinois that took their church through this in the
Roger Ross:
00:40:23
fall of 2020. Because that was when they were bringing people
Roger Ross:
00:40:25
back for in person worship. And I thought, well, what a good way
Roger Ross:
00:40:29
to do that. We'll just talk about come back, as we are
Roger Ross:
00:40:33
coming back for years and listen,
Brad Miller:
00:40:35
yes. Awesome. Well, tell us how that went. If you
Brad Miller:
00:40:38
have any reports about how that when that was applied in a small
Brad Miller:
00:40:44
group or church setting, how did it go? How do people respond?
Roger Ross:
00:40:48
Well, I can share with you what my friend Andy
Roger Ross:
00:40:51
Adams, who's the senior pastor there talked about, he said, it
Roger Ross:
00:40:55
really kind of served as a gracious way to invite people
Roger Ross:
00:40:58
back to God, as well as providing a unifying theme for
Roger Ross:
00:41:04
their church in the midst of a time that had been very
Roger Ross:
00:41:07
disconnected due to summer months in the pandemic and the
Roger Ross:
00:41:10
like. So they found that the church wide study provided an
Roger Ross:
00:41:14
easy step for their members to be engaged in community. As they
Roger Ross:
00:41:19
got into journey groups into subsequent groups that they had
Roger Ross:
00:41:23
available, and use the Participant Guide for that
Roger Ross:
00:41:25
process
Brad Miller:
00:41:28
was an awesome, awesome resource. And that's
Brad Miller:
00:41:31
available as a separate resource from the book itself. Is that
Brad Miller:
00:41:34
also available at cokesbury? and Amazon and so forth?
Roger Ross:
00:41:39
Yep. All those places. Awesome, awesome.
Brad Miller:
00:41:43
Well, Roger, anything else you want to say
Brad Miller:
00:41:45
either about the book or the resource or anything else? If
Brad Miller:
00:41:48
people want to be in contact with you, for instance, do you
Brad Miller:
00:41:51
have How can people knows more about Roger Ross and his writing
Brad Miller:
00:41:55
his ministry, what you're up to how you can have how they can
Brad Miller:
00:41:59
learn more about the ways that you can input input have input
Brad Miller:
00:42:02
in their lives?
Roger Ross:
00:42:04
Well actually just put together a new website
Roger Ross:
00:42:09
called Roger Ross online, Roger Ross dot online. And that's
Roger Ross:
00:42:14
where the doing my blogging and providing other little tidbits
Roger Ross:
00:42:19
here and there, you can kind of see where I may be speaking of
Roger Ross:
00:42:22
might be a time that I'm speaking in somebody's their
Roger Ross:
00:42:24
area. And there are other things that that might be of interest
Roger Ross:
00:42:29
on the website.
Brad Miller:
00:42:30
Awesome, awesome. Roger Ross dot online is where
Brad Miller:
00:42:35
you can find any blogs and some other resources there. He's the
Brad Miller:
00:42:39
author of come back and come back study guide resources. Few
Brad Miller:
00:42:44
years ago, he had to book beat the good people, which is a
Brad Miller:
00:42:47
great book as well. You can pick up all those books that have
Brad Miller:
00:42:51
cokesbury, Amazon and other places books are available. And
Brad Miller:
00:42:55
we continue to be thankful to our good friend Roger Ross,
Brad Miller:
00:42:59
author of come back. Thank you, Roger.
00:00:00
Reverend Dr. Roger Ross, who is an author of a
Brad Miller:
00:00:03
couple of books. A few years ago, he had meet the good
Brad Miller:
00:00:06
people, which describes people in the church. And today we're
Brad Miller:
00:00:09
going to be talking with him about his new book called
Brad Miller:
00:00:12
comeback, and he'll get into the details of that book in a
Brad Miller:
00:00:15
minute. Roger is a director of congregational excellence, in
Brad Miller:
00:00:21
Missouri annual conference, a United Methodist Church
Brad Miller:
00:00:23
responsibility with revitalization, revitalizing
Brad Miller:
00:00:27
congregations in Missouri, but he's also a pastor in Illinois,
Brad Miller:
00:00:31
and a former church planner, and my good personal friend, Roger,
Brad Miller:
00:00:34
welcome to United Methodist people podcast.
Roger Ross:
00:00:39
Thanks, Brad is great to be a part of this
Roger Ross:
00:00:41
again.
Brad Miller:
00:00:41
Awesome, awesome, my friend. Well, you I've been a
Brad Miller:
00:00:45
person who has been involved with the life of the church for
Brad Miller:
00:00:48
some time and in different ways and helping get things
Brad Miller:
00:00:53
responding to the needs of the church. And one of the needs of
Brad Miller:
00:00:56
the church is helping people to understand their personal
Brad Miller:
00:01:00
relationship to God and their personal relationship to the
Brad Miller:
00:01:03
church, and to deal with things that are happening in their
Brad Miller:
00:01:06
life. And it just seems to me that you've been doing a lot of
Brad Miller:
00:01:11
them. But we're going to talk today about this new book you
Brad Miller:
00:01:14
have come out that's just come out called the comeback. So tell
Brad Miller:
00:01:19
me, why did you write come back?
Roger Ross:
00:01:23
I gotta be honest with you, Brad. It really caught
Roger Ross:
00:01:25
me off guard. In January, actually. Now in July of 2019. I
Roger Ross:
00:01:32
went on a Friday, silent prayer retreats. And about three days
Roger Ross:
00:01:35
in, God whispered something. There was no audible voice, just
Roger Ross:
00:01:40
an impression, write about comebacks. And instantly, I knew
Roger Ross:
00:01:46
that that was not because I was an expert. But because I needed
Roger Ross:
00:01:49
one. I was on that retreat, because I had had some hard
Roger Ross:
00:01:53
falls in my own life. And even though by our appearances, it
Roger Ross:
00:01:56
may have looked as if I'd recovered. During that time
Roger Ross:
00:01:59
away, I realized how much further I had to go. So just as
Roger Ross:
00:02:05
a spiritual exercise, I took about an hour and jotted down a
Roger Ross:
00:02:07
few ideas on a legal pad, but how to come back. Now I wanted
Roger Ross:
00:02:12
to figure out what that whole journey might look like,
Roger Ross:
00:02:14
especially for my own sake. But the more I thought about it, I
Roger Ross:
00:02:18
was drawn to my favorite passage in the Bible, which is Jesus
Roger Ross:
00:02:22
story of the prodigal son, because that's an epic comeback.
Roger Ross:
00:02:27
And that was good. You know, I kind of had the initial
Roger Ross:
00:02:29
framework of the journey and left there went on to other
Roger Ross:
00:02:31
things. But it didn't leave me. You know, about a month after
Roger Ross:
00:02:37
the retreat, I took out that legal pad, reviewed a few things
Roger Ross:
00:02:40
I'd written made some changes, put it away again, month later.
Roger Ross:
00:02:45
Now since September, did same thing took it out, played with a
Roger Ross:
00:02:48
little bit. At this point, I began to realize, you know,
Roger Ross:
00:02:52
this, this could be a book. But I also realized at this rate, it
Roger Ross:
00:02:57
could take me 10 years to write it, you know,
Brad Miller:
00:03:00
writing so goes that way, I know those for me,
Brad Miller:
00:03:02
sometimes you're lucky. You get that initial burst in it. Oh, my
Brad Miller:
00:03:06
gosh, he drags on. So
Roger Ross:
00:03:07
absolutely. So I I had a little come to Jesus
Roger Ross:
00:03:12
moment. Right, then actually, it's like, well, if I'm gonna
Roger Ross:
00:03:16
take this command that I heard on that retreat seriously, I'm
Roger Ross:
00:03:20
going to have to talk to somebody about this. And I'm not
Roger Ross:
00:03:23
kidding, you register. Like within days of that little
Roger Ross:
00:03:27
moment. My editor of the former book at Abington, Connie Stella,
Roger Ross:
00:03:33
sent me an email I hadn't heard from Connie in over two years.
Roger Ross:
00:03:38
And that was about Thursday, Thursday afternoon about 430.
Roger Ross:
00:03:42
And I just took that as a sign. So by 525, I replied to her to
Roger Ross:
00:03:48
say that I wasn't going to be at the event that she was emailing
Roger Ross:
00:03:52
me about so that we could maybe catch up. But I did have this
Roger Ross:
00:03:56
idea for a new book. And I threw it out to her. I mean, all five
Roger Ross:
00:04:01
paragraphs, short paragraphs, and I'm thinking she is never
Roger Ross:
00:04:05
going to go for this. I mean, this this was not an elevator
Roger Ross:
00:04:08
pitch. This was like a revolving door pitch. I mean, it was in
Roger Ross:
00:04:12
and out, boom, just scalp. And tomorrow, almost
Brad Miller:
00:04:16
a reaction type of thing. It sounds like,
Roger Ross:
00:04:18
yeah, yeah. And so to Mike will total surprise. She
Roger Ross:
00:04:22
liked it. And by October, I was writing the book.
Unknown:
00:04:26
Here you go, man.
Roger Ross:
00:04:27
So I couldn't plan that really. And it was so
Roger Ross:
00:04:32
different from my first experience of trying to get a
Roger Ross:
00:04:34
book published. I mean, this was just like, falling off a lawn. I
Roger Ross:
00:04:38
thought maybe somebody had drugged her. I did. I did. I
Roger Ross:
00:04:40
didn't know how all that could have happened. So but I realized
Roger Ross:
00:04:45
that, you know if, if I needed this, maybe they're reasons I
Roger Ross:
00:04:50
don't understand that God must really want me to write about
Roger Ross:
00:04:54
comebacks.
Brad Miller:
00:04:55
You think that you mentioned how you had your own
Brad Miller:
00:04:59
issues or setbacks and other have a comeback. You got to have
Brad Miller:
00:05:03
a setback? Do you think that the setbacks that you experience are
Brad Miller:
00:05:08
resonate with the setbacks that other people are experiencing,
Brad Miller:
00:05:12
especially as we are dealing with the ramifications of the
Brad Miller:
00:05:17
pandemic, which we've been experiencing? And all the things
Brad Miller:
00:05:19
come around with ads? Are there some ways that your experience
Brad Miller:
00:05:22
can resonate with the experiences of other people but
Brad Miller:
00:05:25
having?
Roger Ross:
00:05:26
Yeah, I really think so. Because that's just the
Roger Ross:
00:05:30
nature of life. I mean, one night, I remember a number of
Roger Ross:
00:05:36
years ago, when our son was young, we read a little league
Roger Ross:
00:05:38
baseball game and, and he was in the batter's box, and they had a
Roger Ross:
00:05:43
full count, you know, three balls, two strikes. And as we
Roger Ross:
00:05:46
waited breathlessly, for that next pitch, his young friend was
Roger Ross:
00:05:49
sitting next to me said, Well, one thing's for sure. Something
Roger Ross:
00:05:54
is gonna happen.
Brad Miller:
00:05:59
Well, there you go.
Roger Ross:
00:06:00
Yeah. And my wife and I have laughed about that
Roger Ross:
00:06:03
for years ever since, you know, you don't have to live very long
Roger Ross:
00:06:06
to know that something is gonna happen in your life. Right? And
Roger Ross:
00:06:10
oftentimes, those are good things. Sure, right. I mean, you
Roger Ross:
00:06:13
can go through stretches a life that things are going so well,
Roger Ross:
00:06:15
you begin to think it's always gonna be like that. But sooner
Roger Ross:
00:06:18
or later, a fall occurs. And that may be due to forces beyond
Roger Ross:
00:06:25
our control, like you were talking about it is a pandemic,
Roger Ross:
00:06:28
disease, racism, a natural disaster? Or it could be because
Roger Ross:
00:06:35
of missteps of our own making. Yes. Either way, when something
Roger Ross:
00:06:41
like that happens when a fall comes, we have a choice. Are we
Roger Ross:
00:06:46
going to allow that fall to define and fetus? Are we going
Roger Ross:
00:06:49
to choose to dig deeper ignite hole and mount a comeback? Yes,
Brad Miller:
00:06:54
I think add adversity is a given in my
Brad Miller:
00:06:58
research and my thinking and the book, I'm writing it, I kind of
Brad Miller:
00:07:03
break it down into five DS, which are depression, and debt
Brad Miller:
00:07:08
as an financial issues, divorce as a relationship, issues of
Brad Miller:
00:07:15
disease, like the pandemic, things like that. And then
Brad Miller:
00:07:17
death, either your own impending death or death of a loved one,
Brad Miller:
00:07:20
those one form or another, those all happen to all of us, but how
Brad Miller:
00:07:23
we deal with it makes all the difference in you had something,
Brad Miller:
00:07:27
some things happen to you that, that I'll that you chose to
Brad Miller:
00:07:31
process by going on a five day retreat, and started to write a
Brad Miller:
00:07:34
book. So you took some action. Tell me a bit about the actions
Brad Miller:
00:07:39
that you think that some people get stuck, you know, when
Brad Miller:
00:07:43
adversity ism, they get stuck, and you took some action? So
Brad Miller:
00:07:46
tell me about the process about what you are advocating that
Brad Miller:
00:07:50
maybe you did or others do to speak to the fall to what are
Brad Miller:
00:07:55
you going to do about it now?
Roger Ross:
00:07:57
Yeah, that's that was what was helpful about
Roger Ross:
00:08:00
looking into the scriptures, in particular into the prodigal son
Roger Ross:
00:08:03
story. And just looking at it from the perspective of someone
Roger Ross:
00:08:07
who had a fall now with regard to the prodigal son, that was a
Roger Ross:
00:08:10
fall of his own making. Yes, you know, but that's what, that's
Roger Ross:
00:08:16
what's common to all of humanity, that, as I mentioned,
Roger Ross:
00:08:20
moment ago, sooner or later, everybody's going to have a
Roger Ross:
00:08:22
fall. So then the only question is, what are you going to do as
Roger Ross:
00:08:26
a result, so that really the first, the first step in a
Roger Ross:
00:08:30
comeback journey is you have a fall. And you know what, this is
Roger Ross:
00:08:34
the one that nobody likes, nobody wants, but it's just
Roger Ross:
00:08:37
going to come sooner or later. And we have to figure out what
Roger Ross:
00:08:41
we're going to do as a result. The other steps on that journey
Brad Miller:
00:08:45
just to hit there just for a second, we'll go too
Brad Miller:
00:08:46
far. And some people have already kind of prepare
Brad Miller:
00:08:51
themselves. It says that yeah, that's the life reality. But
Brad Miller:
00:08:53
some people when they have a fall, he hits him so hard. It is
Brad Miller:
00:08:57
a total a complete shock, isn't it? It just takes them off to
Brad Miller:
00:09:00
the wheels of memory.
Roger Ross:
00:09:02
Oh, absolutely. You know, it's it's, it's like
Roger Ross:
00:09:05
following the wrong way and having the breath knocked out.
Roger Ross:
00:09:08
He you know, he's when you're gasping for breath. And, and you
Roger Ross:
00:09:11
don't know why all of a sudden, you can't breathe when just a
Roger Ross:
00:09:14
few seconds ago, you could. It's it's a very painful and
Roger Ross:
00:09:18
disorienting experience. And in fact, what what I decided to do
Roger Ross:
00:09:24
in the book was not just talk about the steps that a person
Roger Ross:
00:09:27
would take after they have a fall, but also put some kind of
Roger Ross:
00:09:31
transforming practice, in connection with each of the
Roger Ross:
00:09:36
steps to help people to know what to do when that happens. So
Roger Ross:
00:09:40
when when you have a fall and it just knocks the breath right
Roger Ross:
00:09:43
out. You don't know what to do next. And you're disoriented,
Roger Ross:
00:09:46
you're confused. You have a myriad of different emotions.
Roger Ross:
00:09:53
The the transforming practice of that first step is simply to
Roger Ross:
00:09:57
listen to your emotions. There's all kinds of things that are
Roger Ross:
00:10:01
going on inside of you. And oftentimes, they're kind of a
Roger Ross:
00:10:04
jumbled mixed up mess. But if you don't spend some time just
Roger Ross:
00:10:09
quietly listening to your emotions, they're going to take
Roger Ross:
00:10:13
you on a ride that you don't want to go.
Brad Miller:
00:10:16
Well, it's very interesting that you say that,
Brad Miller:
00:10:18
because I've been reading a lot of stuff recently about things
Brad Miller:
00:10:20
like flow and about focus, and how there's so many distractions
Brad Miller:
00:10:25
in the world right now, that tend to help us get into denial
Brad Miller:
00:10:29
of dealing with feelings and dealing with this stuff. And a
Brad Miller:
00:10:31
lot of people try to get them to jump into all these
Brad Miller:
00:10:34
distractions. And what you're saying is you got the action
Brad Miller:
00:10:37
step, the act the the poor point of application is to pay
Brad Miller:
00:10:44
attention and listen, not tonight.
Roger Ross:
00:10:47
Yeah, that's, that's really the transforming
Roger Ross:
00:10:48
practice. One of the things I discovered as I was looking at
Roger Ross:
00:10:52
these different comeback steps is that there are ancient
Roger Ross:
00:10:55
practices that have been a part of the Christian faith, and in
Roger Ross:
00:11:01
some cases, some other forms of faith, for centuries, that
Roger Ross:
00:11:05
people have put into practice to help them to be able to deal
Roger Ross:
00:11:09
with these inevitable falls that are coming our way. And one of
Roger Ross:
00:11:13
them, that is fair, I mean, it's all through the Scriptures.
Roger Ross:
00:11:17
Jesus is a classic example of someone who was very attuned to
Roger Ross:
00:11:22
very aware of his feelings, and able to express them
Roger Ross:
00:11:25
appropriately in the moment. And frankly, most of us are not like
Roger Ross:
00:11:31
that. Most of us are unaware of what we're feeling at any given
Roger Ross:
00:11:34
time. And we do our best to numb our emotions to try to escape
Roger Ross:
00:11:39
the pain, or just ignore them for fear that they might slow us
Roger Ross:
00:11:43
down.
Brad Miller:
00:11:46
And that is where we have to then continue to
Brad Miller:
00:11:49
apply these other processes that you have mentioned, or the
Brad Miller:
00:11:52
practices of connecting to other people, mentors, and such who
Brad Miller:
00:11:56
can help us and tell us what about maybe some of the things
Brad Miller:
00:11:58
you did, or maybe you advocate in terms of connecting to guides
Brad Miller:
00:12:03
or other people who can speak into our life?
Roger Ross:
00:12:06
Yeah, so after the fall, really, the next step is
Roger Ross:
00:12:10
to kind of come to yourself, that's the thing that you see in
Roger Ross:
00:12:13
the prodigal son story. I mean, he, you know, he was off
Roger Ross:
00:12:18
marching to his own drum beat, and he was on a great journey of
Roger Ross:
00:12:21
self discovery. And then all of a sudden, he realized, Oh, my
Roger Ross:
00:12:25
gosh, I've gotten myself into a much deeper water than I can get
Roger Ross:
00:12:30
out. And he had a little, which call it come to Jesus moments
Roger Ross:
00:12:34
where he came to himself and realized, you know, what, I, I'm
Roger Ross:
00:12:40
in deep doo doo here, and I don't know what to do next. I
Roger Ross:
00:12:45
just know that I can't stay where I am. You know, it's what
Roger Ross:
00:12:49
some people talk about with regard to hitting bottom. Yes,
Roger Ross:
00:12:52
you know, and, and once that happens, you have to make kind
Roger Ross:
00:12:57
of a deep internal decision, like I'm not staying here, I
Roger Ross:
00:13:00
refuse to wallow in this amount, emotional slop for the rest of
Roger Ross:
00:13:04
my life. I was made for more than this. And, and just
Roger Ross:
00:13:08
grasping that one truth sets you on a new course. So the
Roger Ross:
00:13:14
transforming practice for that is simply to engage in solitude
Roger Ross:
00:13:17
and stillness. You know, it's, it's taking time to be alone
Roger Ross:
00:13:22
with God, because one of the things that we are exceptionally
Roger Ross:
00:13:24
good at in American life, American culture is doing. We
Roger Ross:
00:13:30
are not good at being. And I'm like the chief center with all
Roger Ross:
00:13:35
this. I mean, I've I've realized that in my own life, and one of
Roger Ross:
00:13:39
the one of the truths that I've been embracing in recent years,
Roger Ross:
00:13:44
is that beam proceeds doing. And if you get that out of water,
Roger Ross:
00:13:52
then you're very unlikely to have the kind of self awareness
Roger Ross:
00:13:56
necessary to take the steps that will bring you back to the life
Roger Ross:
00:14:02
you
Brad Miller:
00:14:02
were meant for. That's awesome. That's awesome.
Brad Miller:
00:14:05
And then the, but it's interesting, you know, you've
Brad Miller:
00:14:08
kind of got some self reflection there about what you do or don't
Brad Miller:
00:14:11
do. And yet, what seems to be really transformative to you was
Brad Miller:
00:14:14
taking that five day Silent Retreat, which would be just out
Brad Miller:
00:14:20
of the realm of question for so many people. And so what are
Brad Miller:
00:14:24
some things that you think people can do they need to quiet
Brad Miller:
00:14:28
but what are some of the practices? What are some of the
Brad Miller:
00:14:29
disciplines that people can apply their lives in a regular
Brad Miller:
00:14:33
basis? That is a doable thing that that they can do, or maybe
Brad Miller:
00:14:38
people or resources that they can connect up with?
Roger Ross:
00:14:41
Yeah, so with regard to to solitude and stillness, we
Roger Ross:
00:14:44
solitude is simply being alone via taking kind of taking
Roger Ross:
00:14:49
yourself away from others and away from other distractions so
Roger Ross:
00:14:52
you can be alone with God and Jesus practices all through the
Roger Ross:
00:14:58
Scriptures and you You see other great leaders of faith. Now
Roger Ross:
00:15:03
through the Scriptures that do this as well, I mean, politics
Roger Ross:
00:15:06
off on a journey for like three years all by himself. I mean,
Roger Ross:
00:15:09
it's just, I mean, they're they're kind of extreme
Roger Ross:
00:15:12
examples, in some cases. I mean, Jesus starts out as ministry by
Roger Ross:
00:15:15
going on a 40 day, not just fast, but a journey by himself
Roger Ross:
00:15:20
out into the wilderness, which, you know, here's the desert,
Roger Ross:
00:15:23
yes. And not, not surprisingly, he gets tempted by the devil
Roger Ross:
00:15:28
during that time. So all kinds of spiritual things happen,
Roger Ross:
00:15:33
sometimes good, sometimes not so good. When you put yourself in
Roger Ross:
00:15:38
position where you are in solitude and stillness, you
Roger Ross:
00:15:40
know, silence before the Lord. Now, you don't I mean, those are
Roger Ross:
00:15:44
kind of extreme examples. And I don't recommend anyone to start
Roger Ross:
00:15:47
out that way. You know, occasional joggers, don't go out
Roger Ross:
00:15:51
and run marathons, it's not a good idea. But what anyone can
Roger Ross:
00:15:55
do is take their phone or the timer that's on their watch,
Roger Ross:
00:16:00
instead of pretend minutes, and go in a room by themselves
Roger Ross:
00:16:03
without any other distractions, and be alone with God. That is a
Roger Ross:
00:16:11
powerful discipline, just 10 minutes. And, and if you're like
Roger Ross:
00:16:18
me, naturally, what people are going to experience is they'll
Roger Ross:
00:16:21
start having all kinds of distractions hit their minds,
Roger Ross:
00:16:24
you know, all the things that they have to do that day, people
Roger Ross:
00:16:26
need to call emails they need to send on and on. But one of the
Roger Ross:
00:16:32
things I found to be really helpful in those times for
Roger Ross:
00:16:35
solitude is just pick a word, or a phrase, and say it over and
Roger Ross:
00:16:41
over silently to yourself, like other, or father, or Jesus, or I
Roger Ross:
00:16:49
received your grace, or, or the one on one of them I use today
Roger Ross:
00:16:54
was, have mercy on me, have mercy on me. And mercy on, you
Roger Ross:
00:17:01
say that same little phrase or word over and over again, just
Roger Ross:
00:17:04
as a way to focus your mind and heart so that you can call them
Roger Ross:
00:17:08
and still yourself on the inside, to be able to be present
Roger Ross:
00:17:12
to the presence?
Brad Miller:
00:17:14
I think one of the things that if what you're
Brad Miller:
00:17:16
seeing there, Roger, is that an author of your book, he talked
Brad Miller:
00:17:20
about the practice the application of this. And so for
Brad Miller:
00:17:24
instance, where you're talking about with stillness, and
Brad Miller:
00:17:28
meditative techniques, is, oftentimes the more you do it,
Brad Miller:
00:17:34
the better you get at it, you know, the first several times
Brad Miller:
00:17:38
you try it, you do it, you know, it is that chaos in the mind,
Brad Miller:
00:17:44
the emails and all the things to do. But if you you know, if you
Brad Miller:
00:17:47
do it more on a regular basis with breathing, or a mantra, or
Brad Miller:
00:17:51
a word or a phrase or breathing, exercise then becomes more part
Brad Miller:
00:17:58
of who you are. And you become much more productive as well. At
Brad Miller:
00:18:01
least that's what a lot of the productivity coaches are
Brad Miller:
00:18:05
teaching these days.
Roger Ross:
00:18:07
Yeah, I mean, something that's really popular
Roger Ross:
00:18:09
in our culture right now is mindfulness. You hear people
Roger Ross:
00:18:13
talk about that quite often not mindfulness is another way of
Roger Ross:
00:18:16
talking about meditative prayer. Yes, I mean, mindfulness is just
Roger Ross:
00:18:21
Christian meditation has been going on for many centuries.
Brad Miller:
00:18:25
They're just kind of a secular, a secular framing
Brad Miller:
00:18:27
of that practice, I believe I've been reading some mindfulness
Brad Miller:
00:18:31
type material recently. And yeah, I agree with you.
Roger Ross:
00:18:36
So I found that to be exceedingly important for me
Roger Ross:
00:18:41
to be able to, again, kind of not only put being before doing,
Roger Ross:
00:18:48
but also to be in the presence of God. Because it you know,
Roger Ross:
00:18:54
that there's not Jesus said, we are to abide in him. Right? Not
Roger Ross:
00:19:00
not to do things for him necessarily, but we starts by
Roger Ross:
00:19:04
abiding in him, you know, and when we're abiding in him, when
Roger Ross:
00:19:08
we're connected to the vine, that's when the fruit can be
Roger Ross:
00:19:12
born in our lives. But when we're off doing and frantically
Roger Ross:
00:19:16
going in one direction or another 100 different directions
Roger Ross:
00:19:19
at one time, there's very little binding going on. And so small
Roger Ross:
00:19:22
wonder that there's not very much fruit that's being born.
Brad Miller:
00:19:27
Speaking of the fruit and success and or
Brad Miller:
00:19:29
whatever you want to call it, their the productivity. I would
Brad Miller:
00:19:33
notice that Roger use a lot of sports analogies and analogies
Brad Miller:
00:19:36
from the lives of people who have had, you know, basically
Brad Miller:
00:19:39
hit a bottom had to come back and what they experienced on the
Brad Miller:
00:19:42
way back our experience, once they came, came back, and then
Brad Miller:
00:19:45
the theme of your book is come back and of course, you know,
Brad Miller:
00:19:48
one analogy is for us where there's been some body behind it
Brad Miller:
00:19:52
a basketball game or whatever it would be had come back and the
Brad Miller:
00:19:54
exhilaration, the focus it takes to come back and the
Brad Miller:
00:19:57
exhilaration of the victory and you also image about some, some
Brad Miller:
00:20:01
people that you have had experiences with who have had
Brad Miller:
00:20:04
that as well, some pretty tough situations and come back. So
Brad Miller:
00:20:08
tell syllabus more about examples of how this is out
Brad Miller:
00:20:12
there, whether it's some sports analogy or some person about how
Brad Miller:
00:20:17
the focus that they had to take in order to turn it around, and
Brad Miller:
00:20:20
the exhilaration of the victory.
Roger Ross:
00:20:23
Yeah, so there are several examples of people that
Roger Ross:
00:20:27
use them the, in the book that are, you know, famous people
Roger Ross:
00:20:31
that most of us would know, somebody like Tiger Woods is a
Roger Ross:
00:20:35
great example of someone who had a disastrous fall, very public
Roger Ross:
00:20:39
fall back in 2009. And how over essentially a 10 year period, he
Roger Ross:
00:20:46
clawed and scratched his way back to finally then eventually
Roger Ross:
00:20:52
win the 2019. Masters, which was in, in many sports writers,
Roger Ross:
00:21:00
minds and sports experts minds, probably the biggest, if not one
Roger Ross:
00:21:07
of the biggest about the biggest sports turnaround in history,
Roger Ross:
00:21:10
because this guy, he had gone through, I think three different
Roger Ross:
00:21:15
back surgeries before that. He had basically said, Look, I'm
Roger Ross:
00:21:21
done two years before that, he had told people at the Masters
Roger Ross:
00:21:24
in 2017, I'm never gonna play again. Certainly not playing at
Roger Ross:
00:21:29
a professional level. But he just kept coming back. And part
Roger Ross:
00:21:35
of that was, you know, he, he had to listen to his emotions,
Roger Ross:
00:21:39
he had to engage in solitude and stillness, for sure. But he also
Roger Ross:
00:21:41
had to seek wise counsel. And that's the third step, you have
Roger Ross:
00:21:44
to find a guide. And he had a whole team of guides in his
Roger Ross:
00:21:49
life, that would help him to be able to make the journey back,
Roger Ross:
00:21:54
you know, on a medical level, on an emotional spiritual level, on
Roger Ross:
00:21:59
a relational level, he had a whole team of people that were
Roger Ross:
00:22:03
kind of desert dedicated to helping him make that turn. But
Roger Ross:
00:22:09
you know, even with wise counsel, at some point, you'll
Roger Ross:
00:22:12
have to just make a plan and start taking action. You know,
Roger Ross:
00:22:16
you you have to realize this isn't going to happen all by
Roger Ross:
00:22:20
itself.
Brad Miller:
00:22:21
You got to work, you got to get out.
Roger Ross:
00:22:23
Yeah, you have to get after it. Absolutely. So,
Roger Ross:
00:22:27
like anything in life, I mean, you know, the the things that
Roger Ross:
00:22:32
are most important to us, we invest in, yes. And I, you know,
Roger Ross:
00:22:38
this book didn't write itself. You know, it may have been
Roger Ross:
00:22:42
inspired, initially back in July 2019. But it took a lot of
Roger Ross:
00:22:48
hours, a lot of time, you know, when I could have been doing
Roger Ross:
00:22:52
other things. But I sense the need to do this, even if, even
Roger Ross:
00:22:57
if just my mom, my sister wrote it, or read it better. I knew, I
Roger Ross:
00:23:01
knew that I needed to write it, because I needed to work out
Roger Ross:
00:23:04
some things in my own heart in my own life. And part part of
Roger Ross:
00:23:09
that was making a plan and taking action. Because, you
Roger Ross:
00:23:13
know, basically, the two kinds of people in life, you know,
Roger Ross:
00:23:16
there are people that like to plan their people like to act.
Roger Ross:
00:23:21
And oftentimes they don't go together, right. But a plan
Roger Ross:
00:23:24
without action is just as ineffective as action without a
Roger Ross:
00:23:28
plan. You you need them both. There's a healthy balance
Brad Miller:
00:23:33
that ends up in effective planning without
Brad Miller:
00:23:35
action is entertainment are an intellectual exercise, you know,
Brad Miller:
00:23:39
it's just not getting anywhere.
Roger Ross:
00:23:42
Right? So I can't remember exactly the quote, but
Roger Ross:
00:23:45
it's something like a dream without a plan is a nightmare.
Roger Ross:
00:23:50
You know, it's just
Brad Miller:
00:23:52
you have your moment of clarity, clarity of
Brad Miller:
00:23:54
decision, do you decide to do something, write a book, come
Brad Miller:
00:23:58
back to when the Masters but then you it doesn't happen
Brad Miller:
00:24:02
instantaneously. You don't choose to do this, you don't
Brad Miller:
00:24:05
choose to have some great accomplishment in life. And it
Brad Miller:
00:24:09
just doesn't happen instantaneous. You got to work
Brad Miller:
00:24:11
at it. And oh, by the way, it doesn't stop or I mean, but as
Brad Miller:
00:24:15
you know, I just use Tiger wizard example. Yeah, he won the
Brad Miller:
00:24:18
Masters a couple years ago. But now we're recording this. And in
Brad Miller:
00:24:23
March of 2021, just a month or so ago, he had a terrible
Brad Miller:
00:24:27
accent. And if he wants to come back, he's gonna have to come
Brad Miller:
00:24:29
back again. Right, Fred?
Roger Ross:
00:24:31
Exactly. That's exactly right. I mean, Tiger, I
Roger Ross:
00:24:34
mean, I've been praying for Tiger Tiger went through a
Roger Ross:
00:24:36
terrible fall, so to speak, in his car accident. And once
Roger Ross:
00:24:42
again, there are grave questions as to whether he's ever going to
Roger Ross:
00:24:46
be able to play golf again. So he'll have to, you'll have to
Roger Ross:
00:24:50
climb this mountain again, so to speak. But but the last part,
Roger Ross:
00:24:55
which I think is the part that most people don't have
Roger Ross:
00:25:00
Appreciate, to come back journey is trusting the process. Once
Roger Ross:
00:25:05
you've gone through these other steps, you've made a plan, you
Roger Ross:
00:25:09
need to take action. This is the part that derails most people,
Roger Ross:
00:25:13
frankly, they choose to make this come back then. And then
Roger Ross:
00:25:18
they get about halfway there. And they get stuck. And they
Roger Ross:
00:25:24
start to struggle, because they start to doubt whether they can
Roger Ross:
00:25:27
actually come back or not. And, and doubt creeps in. And, you
Roger Ross:
00:25:35
know, the thing that I've found in my own life is a doubt is the
Roger Ross:
00:25:39
leading edge of faith. And it's faith, this the unseen secret of
Roger Ross:
00:25:46
turnarounds, you have to believe in things that you can't see yet
Roger Ross:
00:25:51
to be able to make it all the way back. And, and, frankly,
Roger Ross:
00:25:57
without struggle, there's no comeback.
Brad Miller:
00:26:01
Wow. And I think it's very, very true. There's
Brad Miller:
00:26:05
been lots of evidence about people in the middle of whatever
Brad Miller:
00:26:10
they're doing, and just don't make it they give up, I think,
Brad Miller:
00:26:14
you know, during this COVID crisis, we've seen some people
Brad Miller:
00:26:16
who just kind of threw up their hands and said, you know, it's
Brad Miller:
00:26:19
over with, I can't do anything about this and other people, for
Brad Miller:
00:26:22
instance, the medical scientific community, put their put their
Brad Miller:
00:26:26
mind to developing the vaccines and came up with it in a year or
Brad Miller:
00:26:29
so. Whereas what you usually have been a long process and,
Brad Miller:
00:26:34
and I know that there have been some writers who've talked about
Brad Miller:
00:26:37
this, the nature of that, of that draw that will just draw
Brad Miller:
00:26:44
you down, kind of that will that grief, and that will take you
Brad Miller:
00:26:47
down the middle of the though I called them a lazy mediocrity,
Brad Miller:
00:26:50
you get stuck in the middle, and we'll just kill you, which is
Brad Miller:
00:26:54
kill you. And I've tried to think of the word that some
Brad Miller:
00:26:56
writers have used, but we'll just kill you. But you got to
Brad Miller:
00:27:00
get through that time. But what gets you through that time is
Brad Miller:
00:27:02
hope and faith.
Roger Ross:
00:27:03
Right? So I mean, with writers I talk about
Roger Ross:
00:27:06
writer's block, well, you know, writer's block comes right at
Roger Ross:
00:27:09
this time, when, when you've got the plan, you're taking action,
Roger Ross:
00:27:14
and you get, you know, partway there, maybe halfway there, and
Roger Ross:
00:27:17
you just get stuck. And that's when you have to take this final
Roger Ross:
00:27:24
step, which is simply trusting the process. And trusting the
Roger Ross:
00:27:29
process is to say, you know, I can't see the progress I'm
Roger Ross:
00:27:32
making today versus yesterday. I'm not sure that what I do
Roger Ross:
00:27:36
today is going to make that much of a difference by tomorrow. But
Roger Ross:
00:27:40
I just have to trust the process and keep putting one foot in
Roger Ross:
00:27:44
front of the other. And that's what faith is about. Hmm.
Brad Miller:
00:27:47
One of the writers I've read recently about this,
Brad Miller:
00:27:50
he calls a trust of soup, which is where you put all the
Brad Miller:
00:27:54
ingredients into what you're working on. And it's got to come
Brad Miller:
00:27:57
out, but you got to trust the process. You got to keep it
Brad Miller:
00:27:59
still want to keep it going. And trust the process, you're going
Brad Miller:
00:28:01
to come up with something good. Exactly.
Unknown:
00:28:04
Yeah,
Roger Ross:
00:28:04
exactly. And really the the transforming practice
Roger Ross:
00:28:07
for trusting and processes is doing something that's very
Roger Ross:
00:28:09
counterintuitive, especially in our very active mystic American
Roger Ross:
00:28:13
life. And that is embrace patient trust.
Brad Miller:
00:28:18
Factor. I think my bed same writer sets up like
Brad Miller:
00:28:22
embrace the suck, you know, it's going to stay.
Roger Ross:
00:28:24
Yeah, actually, I just read an article about that.
Roger Ross:
00:28:26
I think that was Bernie brown that says that.
Brad Miller:
00:28:29
Yeah, yeah, that was one of the writers I've
Brad Miller:
00:28:32
written, I wish. I wish I could think of this guy that I'm
Brad Miller:
00:28:36
thinking, who is what is what books are called do the work. I
Brad Miller:
00:28:40
can think of the book title though I can't think of the
Brad Miller:
00:28:42
author's name. But he has to do with this process who we're
Brad Miller:
00:28:46
talking about here. But here's what I want to come around to
Brad Miller:
00:28:49
this with you here, Roger is come back where you come back to
Brad Miller:
00:28:55
you're coming back to a good coming back to a good place. So
Brad Miller:
00:28:59
what's the best thing about a comeback? What's the best thing
Brad Miller:
00:29:02
about coming home or coming to that better place?
Roger Ross:
00:29:05
You know, this is the thing that probably
Roger Ross:
00:29:08
surprised me the most about writing to me about writing a
Roger Ross:
00:29:10
book read, because to to, to come back to return to the life
Roger Ross:
00:29:16
you were made for does not necessarily mean that you're
Roger Ross:
00:29:20
going to win the game. Or that you're going to come back out on
Roger Ross:
00:29:25
top with whatever it was that you were, you know, initially
Roger Ross:
00:29:31
shooting for a comeback, you know, really truly understood
Roger Ross:
00:29:36
is, is coming home to who God made you to be. It's realizing
Roger Ross:
00:29:43
that you've been on this long journey when you finally come
Roger Ross:
00:29:45
back home. You're seeing it now with fresh eyes. Like you could
Roger Ross:
00:29:50
never see it before. I mean, think about the prodigal son.
Roger Ross:
00:29:52
When he came back home. He saw home in a way that he had never
Roger Ross:
00:29:57
seen it before and he lived there his whole life. And that's
Roger Ross:
00:30:02
the beauty of a true comeback because it transforms you from
Roger Ross:
00:30:06
the inside. And now you see life in a different way. It
Roger Ross:
00:30:11
tenderizes your heart It provides when a comeback works
Roger Ross:
00:30:15
the way it's supposed to, provides a level of compassion
Roger Ross:
00:30:18
that you could not have had previously, it enables you to,
Roger Ross:
00:30:22
to actually practice humility. I mean, think about the tiger
Roger Ross:
00:30:26
woods that we knew before 2009 and the tiger woods that we know
Roger Ross:
00:30:31
now. I mean, he's really a different man.
Brad Miller:
00:30:36
making a contribution, much more
Brad Miller:
00:30:39
approachable, things like that. So
Roger Ross:
00:30:41
yeah, and really, frankly, much more humble.
Roger Ross:
00:30:45
Because he's faced some of his own inner demons. He's, he's
Roger Ross:
00:30:50
realized some of his limitations. And he's embraced
Roger Ross:
00:30:55
some of his own humanity, some of which was not, you know,
Roger Ross:
00:30:59
particularly a pretty thing to look at. But he's allowed that
Roger Ross:
00:31:05
to kind of be absorbed into who he is now, more fully as more
Roger Ross:
00:31:11
mature, man.
Unknown:
00:31:12
Yes.
Brad Miller:
00:31:13
Well, I've just would, I think we're really what
Brad Miller:
00:31:15
we're talking about, ultimately, here is transformation. You
Brad Miller:
00:31:17
know, transformation, we, we have this point where we're
Brad Miller:
00:31:21
cruising along, and everything seems to be going in one way or
Brad Miller:
00:31:25
another, okay, then we hit a fall. Well, whatever your fall
Brad Miller:
00:31:31
was impacted you greatly. Everyone, many, many people had
Brad Miller:
00:31:35
a fall with a pandemic, other people have a financial issue or
Brad Miller:
00:31:38
moral issue or a issue with health, whatever it is, or with
Brad Miller:
00:31:44
something else, maybe death in the family, and what are you
Brad Miller:
00:31:47
going to do about it? So, but the idea here is to come back
Brad Miller:
00:31:51
home to where you were exactly that place that was where you
Brad Miller:
00:31:56
left, because may that may not be, where God wants you to be
Brad Miller:
00:32:00
the best place to transform to something renewed. And I'm
Brad Miller:
00:32:02
reminded of the biblical stories of emerging to a good place, the
Brad Miller:
00:32:08
promised land, you know, to the 40 days in the wilderness, the
Brad Miller:
00:32:11
40 years in the wilderness, all these stories about
Brad Miller:
00:32:14
transformation takes place, you left something at home, and you
Brad Miller:
00:32:17
come through the storm, you come through the wilderness, you come
Brad Miller:
00:32:21
through this, and you come to a better place. And what you're
Brad Miller:
00:32:24
doing here is helping us to do this through identifying the
Brad Miller:
00:32:28
problem. Getting some mentors along the way, getting to know
Brad Miller:
00:32:33
yourself going into that those quiet places, embracing the the
Brad Miller:
00:32:38
trust, trusting the process, and then celebrating it so good. How
Brad Miller:
00:32:44
to tell if there's one more thing and then we'll let you go
Brad Miller:
00:32:48
here just a few bit, just a minute or two here. Tell us
Brad Miller:
00:32:51
about how you've seen this happen. In others, either in a
Brad Miller:
00:32:55
person you've worked with, or perhaps an organization, you
Brad Miller:
00:32:58
work with an a party, your role is to work with churches, many
Brad Miller:
00:33:02
churches that may be struggling, and we live in a world right now
Brad Miller:
00:33:05
in our United Methodist Church with a lot of churches, and even
Brad Miller:
00:33:08
our denomination is having its share of falls and struggles and
Brad Miller:
00:33:13
dynamics, which are just, you know, painful. It's evolved in
Brad Miller:
00:33:16
many ways. What is your suggestion? Or what is your
Brad Miller:
00:33:19
example of some individuals or organizations that have chosen
Brad Miller:
00:33:25
to do a pass on what what you're what you're talking about here?
Brad Miller:
00:33:29
Well, there's
Roger Ross:
00:33:29
lots of individuals. You know, we've, we've mentioned
Roger Ross:
00:33:33
a couple on the way here, but with regard to an organization,
Roger Ross:
00:33:36
I mean, I know a number of churches that have realized, you
Roger Ross:
00:33:41
know, what, we're in some part of this process that I just
Roger Ross:
00:33:47
outlined his comeback journey that I just outlined. And having
Roger Ross:
00:33:51
an idea of where you are in that journey is hugely important for
Roger Ross:
00:33:55
you to be able to make whatever the next step is for you. I just
Roger Ross:
00:33:59
talked with one of the supervisors of our churches in
Roger Ross:
00:34:04
Missouri, and she told me that there's a church that has had a
Roger Ross:
00:34:09
terrible fall, I mean, terrible financial mismanagement. by half
Roger Ross:
00:34:14
the congregation has left lots of hurt feelings, and you know,
Roger Ross:
00:34:19
just difficult things going on in life that congregation but a
Roger Ross:
00:34:24
new pastor has just been appointed to that church. And
Roger Ross:
00:34:29
for the first time in yours, the people that are left in that
Roger Ross:
00:34:33
church actually have a sense of hope that they could instead of
Roger Ross:
00:34:37
being on a kind of a March, toward decline, and then
Roger Ross:
00:34:43
ultimate death, they now realize you know what, this thing could
Roger Ross:
00:34:48
turn around. We have the possibility of, of taking the
Roger Ross:
00:34:54
fall that we all recognize has happened in our lives
Roger Ross:
00:34:58
collectively as a congregation. And embracing a different
Roger Ross:
00:35:03
journey that would take us to a different destination. So, I
Roger Ross:
00:35:08
mean, that's just that happened just today, I see all kinds of
Roger Ross:
00:35:11
churches that that have that kind of light comeback in their
Roger Ross:
00:35:16
lives, which represents hope listener heart, you know,
Brad Miller:
00:35:21
what I said, you mentioned that I see that as an
Brad Miller:
00:35:23
inflection point, you know, rather than tipping the tipping
Brad Miller:
00:35:26
point of, you know, if we keep going, allowing the demise or
Brad Miller:
00:35:30
allowing the fall to crush us, then we will continue down that
Brad Miller:
00:35:34
slide and the momentum will take us out. But if, in this case,
Brad Miller:
00:35:37
inflection point, a new pastor, but our own lives, we can have
Brad Miller:
00:35:41
our own inflection points to choose to do something about and
Brad Miller:
00:35:43
of course, hurt our own beloved United Methodist Church, we have
Brad Miller:
00:35:46
our own chaos we have our own dilemmas to deal with. And my
Brad Miller:
00:35:51
hope and prayer is that I don't think we're going to ever go
Brad Miller:
00:35:54
back to what we were not too many years ago. And some sort of
Brad Miller:
00:36:00
sensibility of us all getting along, or else on the same
Brad Miller:
00:36:04
track. Something new will emerge in the process the next year or
Brad Miller:
00:36:09
two. But I hope that it's a good thing and hope it's a good thing
Brad Miller:
00:36:12
that we can all emerge to some better place. Do you have any
Brad Miller:
00:36:16
thoughts? you have any thoughts about that at all, before we
Brad Miller:
00:36:18
conclude our conversation?
Roger Ross:
00:36:20
Well, I I do think that we're moving as a United
Roger Ross:
00:36:25
Methodist Church in different directions. And that's not
Roger Ross:
00:36:32
unusual. If you look at our history, we've done that for
Roger Ross:
00:36:35
generations. Now, for the last couple of 100 years, we've been
Roger Ross:
00:36:39
doing that, in the United method, what is now the I love
Roger Ross:
00:36:42
the church, what is Methodism over the course of last couple
Roger Ross:
00:36:44
100 years, 250 years in America. So that that shouldn't be a big
Roger Ross:
00:36:50
surprise to us. What's hard is the the relational changes that
Roger Ross:
00:36:58
will come as a result of that, there, there'll be people that
Roger Ross:
00:37:01
we know and love, that go in different directions, and we're
Roger Ross:
00:37:04
not going to be seeing them near as much are working with them
Roger Ross:
00:37:08
near as closely. And that part's gonna be hard, you know,
Brad Miller:
00:37:12
that's the grief, that's the pain,
Roger Ross:
00:37:15
there's going to be that's, that's that will be the
Roger Ross:
00:37:16
fall for us. Figuring out how to, to process that in an
Roger Ross:
00:37:22
emotionally healthy way, instead of kind of throwing hate bombs
Roger Ross:
00:37:27
at each other, which is what we have had a tendency to do. And
Roger Ross:
00:37:30
you know, I'm at the church, I think will be our biggest
Roger Ross:
00:37:33
challenge and potentially our greatest victory if we can do
Roger Ross:
00:37:38
that.
Brad Miller:
00:37:38
Yes. Well, that's the hope and prayer is having a
Brad Miller:
00:37:42
great victory. And we've been talking here today about having
Brad Miller:
00:37:46
personal victories and victories and local churches and or other
Brad Miller:
00:37:49
organizations and, and your book is all about that making a
Brad Miller:
00:37:53
comeback and getting through these falls and coming to a
Brad Miller:
00:37:56
better place. And it's available at cokesbury. And at Amazon and
Brad Miller:
00:38:01
anyplace else, the books are sold, it's by Abington press.
Brad Miller:
00:38:06
And I commend our folks to check that out. But part of checking
Brad Miller:
00:38:09
out that book is some resources that you have, they're
Brad Miller:
00:38:13
specifically designed for study groups or perhaps for developing
Brad Miller:
00:38:17
lessons. So would you tell us what about the supplemental
Brad Miller:
00:38:20
resources that are available
Unknown:
00:38:22
for the book? comeback?
Roger Ross:
00:38:24
Sure. Thanks, Brad. Actually, as soon as I brought
Roger Ross:
00:38:28
the book out, I had pastors start to ask me, well, could we
Roger Ross:
00:38:31
do this in our church? And would you like also provide a study
Roger Ross:
00:38:37
guide for that? And I said, Well, I hadn't really thought
Roger Ross:
00:38:39
about writing a study guide, but I guess I could. And so a few
Roger Ross:
00:38:44
months after the book came out, the study guide came out as
Roger Ross:
00:38:48
well. And it looks a lot the same, I mean, all you can, you
Roger Ross:
00:38:51
can tell, at the bottom, it says Participant Guide, that's the
Roger Ross:
00:38:53
only difference between the two. But the Participant Guide is
Roger Ross:
00:38:58
based on the ability to kind of take the process the five
Roger Ross:
00:39:04
different steps we've been talking about, and put them into
Roger Ross:
00:39:08
play in a person's life. And they're the study guide can be
Roger Ross:
00:39:13
either used, or the placement guide can be used either as a
Roger Ross:
00:39:15
small group, or it can be done on an individual study basis,
Roger Ross:
00:39:19
either one of those work. And so there's a small group component
Roger Ross:
00:39:23
that kind of leads you through what you would do if you're
Roger Ross:
00:39:26
together with, you know, six 810 older folks. But there's also
Roger Ross:
00:39:30
things that can be done individually by persons, five
Roger Ross:
00:39:35
days out of the week in between the group sessions. So if you're
Roger Ross:
00:39:39
doing say a six session, six week deal, there's plenty of
Roger Ross:
00:39:44
stuff that you can be doing in between for individual studies
Roger Ross:
00:39:48
and to really drive the transforming practices into your
Roger Ross:
00:39:52
life. That's the idea.
Brad Miller:
00:39:54
So there's an implementation and application
Brad Miller:
00:39:56
process for the individual as well as for a group And I
Brad Miller:
00:40:01
assumed that if a pastor Swati wanted to use this as a resource
Brad Miller:
00:40:04
for building a sermon series or something along this line that
Brad Miller:
00:40:07
is perhaps could be helpful in that regard, as well.
Roger Ross:
00:40:10
Absolutely. Yeah, that that was really kind of the
Roger Ross:
00:40:12
idea behind it. I actually had a church, one of the larger
Roger Ross:
00:40:17
churches in Illinois that took their church through this in the
Roger Ross:
00:40:23
fall of 2020. Because that was when they were bringing people
Roger Ross:
00:40:25
back for in person worship. And I thought, well, what a good way
Roger Ross:
00:40:29
to do that. We'll just talk about come back, as we are
Roger Ross:
00:40:33
coming back for years and listen,
Brad Miller:
00:40:35
yes. Awesome. Well, tell us how that went. If you
Brad Miller:
00:40:38
have any reports about how that when that was applied in a small
Brad Miller:
00:40:44
group or church setting, how did it go? How do people respond?
Roger Ross:
00:40:48
Well, I can share with you what my friend Andy
Roger Ross:
00:40:51
Adams, who's the senior pastor there talked about, he said, it
Roger Ross:
00:40:55
really kind of served as a gracious way to invite people
Roger Ross:
00:40:58
back to God, as well as providing a unifying theme for
Roger Ross:
00:41:04
their church in the midst of a time that had been very
Roger Ross:
00:41:07
disconnected due to summer months in the pandemic and the
Roger Ross:
00:41:10
like. So they found that the church wide study provided an
Roger Ross:
00:41:14
easy step for their members to be engaged in community. As they
Roger Ross:
00:41:19
got into journey groups into subsequent groups that they had
Roger Ross:
00:41:23
available, and use the Participant Guide for that
Roger Ross:
00:41:25
process
Brad Miller:
00:41:28
was an awesome, awesome resource. And that's
Brad Miller:
00:41:31
available as a separate resource from the book itself. Is that
Brad Miller:
00:41:34
also available at cokesbury? and Amazon and so forth?
Roger Ross:
00:41:39
Yep. All those places. Awesome, awesome.
Brad Miller:
00:41:43
Well, Roger, anything else you want to say
Brad Miller:
00:41:45
either about the book or the resource or anything else? If
Brad Miller:
00:41:48
people want to be in contact with you, for instance, do you
Brad Miller:
00:41:51
have How can people knows more about Roger Ross and his writing
Brad Miller:
00:41:55
his ministry, what you're up to how you can have how they can
Brad Miller:
00:41:59
learn more about the ways that you can input input have input
Brad Miller:
00:42:02
in their lives?
Roger Ross:
00:42:04
Well actually just put together a new website
Roger Ross:
00:42:09
called Roger Ross online, Roger Ross dot online. And that's
Roger Ross:
00:42:14
where the doing my blogging and providing other little tidbits
Roger Ross:
00:42:19
here and there, you can kind of see where I may be speaking of
Roger Ross:
00:42:22
might be a time that I'm speaking in somebody's their
Roger Ross:
00:42:24
area. And there are other things that that might be of interest
Roger Ross:
00:42:29
on the website.
Brad Miller:
00:42:30
Awesome, awesome. Roger Ross dot online is where
Brad Miller:
00:42:35
you can find any blogs and some other resources there. He's the
Brad Miller:
00:42:39
author of come back and come back study guide resources. Few
Brad Miller:
00:42:44
years ago, he had to book beat the good people, which is a
Brad Miller:
00:42:47
great book as well. You can pick up all those books that have
Brad Miller:
00:42:51
cokesbury, Amazon and other places books are available. And
Brad Miller:
00:42:55
we continue to be thankful to our good friend Roger Ross,
Brad Miller:
00:42:59
author of come back. Thank you, Roger.
