WEBVTT
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00:00:10.720This is the SteamStuff Podcast.
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00:00:12.960What's up, guys?
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00:00:22.800Hey, before we get started, if you haven't already, whatever platform you're listening to this on, please hit that subscribe or follow button, whether that's Apple, Spotify, or YouTube.
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00:00:46.479Yeah, let us know what you guys think about the podcast and hope you enjoy this episode.
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00:00:48.159Thanks so much for tuning in.
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00:00:50.240All right, Joe McConaughey.
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00:00:51.600Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
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00:00:52.479How's it going, dude?
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00:00:53.759Hey, thanks for having me on.
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00:00:54.320Doing good.
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00:00:56.159I love the pre pre-chat chat.
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00:00:56.719It was great.
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00:00:57.039Yeah.
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00:00:58.399Oh, it's good to get to know you.
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00:00:58.960It's dude.
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00:01:01.200I'm not I'm not joking with you.
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00:01:03.200About 10 minutes ago, I got a random DM.
00:01:03.280 -->
00:01:05.680I was talking to Talon Hole and he was DM'd me.
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00:01:07.359He's like, You gotta have Joe McConaughey on the pod.
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00:01:09.920I'm like, he's about to come on in 10 minutes.
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00:01:11.840So that's awesome.
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00:01:13.280Good good intuition there.
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00:01:16.000Those PNW guys, you guys allon's a legend.
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00:01:16.239Yeah.
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00:01:16.560Yeah.
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00:01:17.920He's a monster.
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00:01:18.799Dude, how's it going?
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00:01:20.480How how are how's your first of all?
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00:01:21.439How's your day going?
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00:01:22.959Uh how's taper going too?
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00:01:24.159I know you got a race tomorrow.
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00:01:25.840So yeah, it's kind of wild.
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00:01:35.599It's like you, you know, I'm a new dad, so I have like a six-month-old doing the Olympic Mountains 100k tomorrow and preps through the John Muir Trail later.
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00:01:38.319And it's like funny because that's like the last thing on my mind.
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00:01:42.959Like, I literally have I literally like went through my drop.
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00:01:49.359I spent like an hour on my drop bags this morning, and it's like gonna be one of my first races that I've done entirely by myself.
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00:01:53.840Like nobody like will be there at all, which is kind of new for me, so it's fun.
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00:02:03.599So I'm doing the full drop bag experience and like get to the start line by myself, get to the finish line by myself, hopefully like high-five somebody and get a burrito and then carry on.
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00:02:16.400And uh, and that's about how much kind of mental other than really thinking through the nutrition side of uh the Olympics race because I'm trying to get ready for the John Muir trail, but it's like dad life's got me got me good, and coaching's got me good too.
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00:02:18.319And also getting ready for North Bend Trail.
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00:02:25.840I'm like, I'm kind of at uh at like you know 101% right now of capacity, uh which is good.
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00:02:28.080Yeah, no, I love the enthusiasm.
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00:02:32.639Well, part of the reason why we're we're talking is because I mean this is yes, a short trail podcast.
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00:02:40.960I love it because we could use North Bend Trailfest to get you on the show as like kind of a prelude so that we can have like a true ultra runner on the show and have like a I know, right?
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00:02:41.840I'm mixing it up.
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00:02:42.479Yeah, I like it.
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00:02:46.719I do steep stuff sometimes, but usually flat rolling stuff that lasts forever.
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00:02:47.840Fair enough.
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00:02:48.319Fair enough.
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00:02:51.280So, dude, you're you're race directing the North Bend Trailfest.
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00:02:58.080I know the reason I found out about the race, it's been a couple years now, because like there's not a lot of VKs uh floating around out there.
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00:03:02.560And I found I was, you know, every now and then, just like everybody else, I go on ultra sign up.
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00:03:04.479I'm like, well, is there anything cool going on?
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00:03:09.840And that's how I I learned about the Mount C Mount Psy or Mount C Mount Psy, Mount Psy, VK.
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00:03:17.599Um, and obviously Mika went out there last year to blitz that trail and uh you know learned about it through him as well and heard really good things.
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00:03:24.560So talk to me a little bit about this uh this race and and just what it means to the community and putting it on and all this good stuff.
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00:03:26.879Yeah, gosh, lots of places to start.
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00:03:28.639One, I'm super hyped to race.
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00:03:29.680Oh to race direct.
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00:03:31.199I almost said just to race.
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00:03:35.439Uh it's a very unique mountain, which is cool.
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00:03:39.199Um, and I raced it in 2024, which was fun.
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00:03:46.719Uh Mount Psy is sort of like the so speaking of Talon Hall, uh it's like Talon's favorite mountain.
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00:03:48.639I coached Talon for a while, weirdly enough.
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00:03:51.759And like before I coached him, I was like, what does your training look like?
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00:03:53.199He's like, Oh, I run at UW.
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00:03:55.840I don't tell my college coach that I go run on mountains.
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00:03:58.080Well, I kind of tell him, but he has no, he calls it a hilly run.
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00:04:00.000He's like, Oh, Talon, you doing a hilly run today?
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00:04:01.199He's like, Yep, coach.
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00:04:07.120And then he would go like set the KOM on Psy or on Mailbox or like some other thing.
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00:04:16.079And Mount Psy was like Talon's go-to training mountain, and also I think for Seattleites, like the first real mountain mountain outside the city.
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00:04:29.759So when you leave Seattle, you have what people call the Isquah Alps, which is this stretch of like tiger, cougar, squawk, grand ridge, all these really awesome trail, like trail networks that are loosely connected to each other.
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00:04:34.639Um most of those climbs or is and all those climbs are like 2,000 feet or less.
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00:04:45.120And some are pretty steep and pretty solid, but it does feel very like subalpine, where Psy feels more like a traditional big mountain.
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00:04:47.439Um, it's in the town of North Bend.
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00:05:00.480North Bend is where they filmed Twin Peaks, uh, which is like the synopsis basically is like sleepy mountain town that doesn't quite know how cool the location is for, you know, the town itself.
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00:05:03.199Um, because they live right at the base of Mount Psy.
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00:05:18.639Uh and you know, you start at the race, you start in Torgenson Park, you have like a mile of bike path, and then you head up the old side trail, which is this is for the 30k race, and then you hit this like steep 22% grade for over 3,000 feet of gain.
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00:05:22.079You hit this nice rocky, beautiful outcropping on Mount Psy.
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00:05:25.600You hit this ridgeline that takes you over to Tenerife Mountain, and then you blitz back down.
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00:05:30.000So it's like a nice 30k, it's a really, really awesome 30k course.
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00:05:34.240Um, and the VK that goes up the old side trail, it's the same trail in the 30k course.
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00:05:40.399You start from the parking lot, so yeah, you're gaining you know 3,200 feet in 2.9 miles.
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00:05:43.759Um, and just going for it.
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00:05:48.079Like I just had someone who I coach text me and being like, maybe I want polls.
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00:05:50.959I didn't realize how hard old Psy was.
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00:06:02.079I was like, Yeah, I wish your treadmill went to 22% so you could feel that on like regular training runs because it's different than you know most experiences that trail runners are exposed to.
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00:06:02.879Amazing.
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00:06:03.759I have one question for you.
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00:06:07.360Why is this not this should be on the USA Skyrunner series for next year, dude?
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00:06:08.720This is we gotta put this together.
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00:06:12.639Let me know if you need if you if you need a connection, we're gonna be total.
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00:06:14.000It would be super fun.
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00:06:24.879Oh, I'd love to chat because you know, my big thing is like it it's a race that hasn't quite figured itself out in terms of people seeing it for, in my opinion, for seeing it what it is.
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00:06:37.439And that's what I'm so excited about it because like there's so many races that involve trails and beautiful places, and but there's very few races, really places in the Pacific Northwest where you can do that from a town and from a community.
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00:06:41.600So, you know, we have like a festival experience that we're very intentional about.
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00:06:48.639I was just talking with like the village project who's gonna provide parent care for our like shifts for parents if they want to race.
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00:06:52.959There's a local guy who brews his own kombucha who's gonna probably come out and table.
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00:07:04.399There's food vendors, like we're in like a city park kind of at the start, but you're a mile away, or on the festival is like on a Sunday, the VK is on Saturday, the 30K and 10K are on Sunday.
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00:07:12.560And I'm like, this is such a cool, like true mountain running experience, but most people are kind of scared by mountain running.
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00:07:16.480So I think that's been the interesting thing for me is like I think it's super rad.
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00:07:24.000And then in talking with people, they're like, uh, you know, it's not an ultra and it's super steep, uh, which I'm sure you know that's like your bread and butter.
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00:07:26.160So I'm stoked to hear you're super hyped with it.
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00:07:27.839Uh I love that stuff though.
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00:07:28.959Yeah, I know, right?
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00:07:32.480So to me, I'm like, oh, this is such a cool race.
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00:07:37.600And I yeah, I hope it continues to kind of people to see it that way and uh to get exposed to it.
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00:07:40.319Cause I do think, you know, it's been it's it's fourth year.
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00:07:43.920There's like prize purse, there's usually a decent elite field.
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00:07:50.639Like if you look at like you know, Max King has won it, Clair DeVaux has won it, like a handful of really good runners have won it.
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00:07:55.120So uh I'm really excited to be sort of part of part of the story of it.
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00:07:56.000Dude, I love it.
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00:07:56.959Sell me a little bit.
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00:08:13.519You kind of already kind of already sold me a little bit on the community stuff, but I I feel like one of the things that make a race like this so special, obviously the course is super important, the way you structure everything is super important, but I think the area as well, like the town, like North Bend being so close to you know Seattle.
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00:08:19.279And I think for people coming from out of town uh or out even out of state, um, that's not hard to get to.
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00:08:28.720You fly into Seattle, especially if you're in Colorado or you know, California, any of like kind of the bigger surrounding areas, like you two-hour flight, tops, three hours tops, and you fly right in.
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00:08:30.319Seattle's like kind of right there, right?
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00:08:51.120And it's 45-minute drive from the airport, and you get on a pretty much a main highway and you take one of two stops into the town of North or one of two uh exits into the town of North Bend, and you know, there's multiple there's a lot of like funny motels, and then there's all as in read through the lines is like very rustic hotels.
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00:08:57.919And then there's uh like the Salish Lodge is awesome for like really awesome, like upscale type stuff.
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00:09:02.240You're on Snowqualmmy Falls, which is like I don't know how big it is, but a hundred and fifty-foot waterfall.
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00:09:07.679It's a really beautiful venue for people who are looking for like a really you know nice place to stay.
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00:09:11.519Uh, and then there's even camping like up the Middle Fork, 20 minutes away, 30 minutes away.
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00:09:15.600So you kind of it does a pretty good job of I think accommodating a lot of people.
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00:09:18.320And yeah, like you said, it's very easy to get to.
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00:09:20.240It's also like right off I-90.
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00:09:29.919So if you're coming from the east side or Montana, like you know, you literally can take I-90 across and not really have to go through like country roads or anything to get there.
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00:09:31.919Dude, I gotta tell Jackson Cole about this.
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00:09:33.200I'm sure he'll listen and hear it.
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00:09:37.039But he was I was talking to him recently, and he's like, Oh, because he did beast.
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00:09:39.840Uh and he's like, Yeah, it's kind of like a backyard race.
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00:09:41.039And I'm thinking, like, backyard.
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00:09:42.320I'm like, you live in Missoula.
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00:09:43.200Like, how's that?
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00:09:44.799This doesn't seem that close.
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00:09:46.000But I guess you're right.
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00:09:48.879Like, coming from I-90, that is not that far, I guess.
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00:10:05.679That's like a Montana, Washington, Idaho thing where you're like, Yeah, you just like drive to Montana, and then you're like, you mean drive five hours across eastern Washington, which has pretty much rolling hill, like dry rolling hills, and then you hit Ida like, and then you still got two to three two to five hours to go to Montana.
00:10:05.759 -->
00:10:13.360But yeah, people like the Montana Washington drive is like a funny, not shockingly not that uncommon for people to make the drive.
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00:10:16.080It's not, it's not that far, which I thought is is pretty neat.
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00:10:18.559Dude, plus like I don't know, you could spend a ton of time.
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00:10:31.200You and I were talking about this like kind of offline, but the uh just the amount of stuff in the Pacific Northwest, like from the Olympics to the Cascades, and and then you know, like even Mount Rainier National Park, I feel like you could spend a ton of time.
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00:10:38.399So yeah, I've been uh I'm gonna go out and do, I told you this, uh, Cirque Series Crystal, and I'm like looking at all the stuff I want to do while I'm out there.
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00:10:44.639And yeah, dude, you could spend uh the Pacific Northwest, I think is gonna be my next pet project just because there's yeah, make it happen.
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00:10:46.000Wow.
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00:10:47.519How how like rowdy are you?
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00:10:49.600Are you do you like doing like rowdy scrambly stuff?
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00:10:51.279Or are you more like okay?
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00:11:09.840Because there's a handful that's like the that's where it gets weird in the Pacific Northwest, where like in the Sierra, like I've guided as a backpacking guide for six years in the Sierra, and like you can pretty much go off trail and hit a peak and do whatever, and there's very limited consequence where Washington doesn't have the same like boundless open alpine area.
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00:11:33.919And so there's some really fun off-trail routes too, but you kind of have to have a little more tact when doing some of those things, but it also makes it really fun and an interesting challenge for people who do like, you know, Kolleton's a great example of a peak where, like, yeah, you go on trail and then it's like a climber's route, and then it's, you know, class three the whole time, but it's like a choose your own adventure scramble for like 500 feet to get to the top and no trail.
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00:11:46.639So, like, there's a lot of that kind of stuff that, you know, outside of the really awesome running trails of like two, like third and second, second and third tier like adventures that are worth doing, but like no one talks about or knows about.
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00:11:48.000See, that's the best stuff, dude.
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00:11:56.000Like, we've got the sangre de Cristo down here, and I I don't I'm I'm I hesitant to talk about it too much on the podcast because I was, you know, I kind of a gatekeepy with my stuff.
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00:12:00.480But at the same time, like it's not it's not like it's not on Instagram everywhere and people are always posted about it.
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00:12:04.159But dude, they have this like it's got this sick conglomerate, and you can scramble.
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00:12:10.879Like, so like there's the if you ever get some time, Google the uh Crestone Needle and like Crestone Peak and stuff like that, and like Kick Hars.
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00:12:24.399They're all just like these beautiful third and fourth class 14ers, um, super scrambly, like nice, like beautiful holds that are like just like almost like uh I don't know, like the holds are like it's conglomerate, so it's chunky.
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00:12:24.879Yeah, yeah.
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00:12:29.840They're real, it's really cool, and it's super fun and safe rock, so it's not like nothing's like really falling apart.
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00:12:36.799Yeah, it's uh we've got some stuff down here, but Colorado Springs, like where I live, like the coolest thing is like the Manitou Incline.
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00:12:40.159Uh yeah, hey, go get a million feet of vert in a year.
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00:12:40.960That's an adventure.
00:12:43.840 -->
00:12:46.639Uh and it is cool having Pikes Peak close, but like I don't know.
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00:12:49.200I like what we were saying before, like it's everything's so flat.
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00:12:49.600I don't know.
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00:13:12.639Like I find Colorado to be like I do a lot of Cirque series races and stuff like that, and I still find myself uh like on my like I usually do like one big workout a week uh on like 15 to 20 percent grade, but usually roads just because a lot of like the things all race are like cat track, and it's like so hard to find that that where it's like outside of a ski resort of like how is this possible that like it's hard to find this in Colorado?
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00:13:14.159So yeah, you know.
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00:13:16.480Well, the vert thing's so funny here too.
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00:13:32.320We were talking about like average grade of a route, and like there's a few the fun thing about the Pacific Northwest is there's a few trails that they just were like, you know, let's just build it straight up and let's just make it like 25% grade, and uh so like yeah, that's it's a funny thing in the rest of the country.
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00:13:45.200I feel like there's very little of that type of trail building outside of maybe some parts of New England and uh and Washington, like it's very little of that in California or Oregon, yeah.
00:13:45.600 -->
00:13:48.639Probably Montana and Alaska are pretty good, but what's the background on it?
00:13:48.720 -->
00:13:51.440Was is a lot of like old mining stuff from like back in the day?
00:13:51.519 -->
00:13:55.679Because that's like what we have kind of, but like they just old mountaineering.
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00:14:01.200I think it's just like old school mountaineering vibes of people who are like, yeah, like everything grows.
00:14:01.600 -->
00:14:03.440The thing about our trails is everything grows so fast.
00:14:03.600 -->
00:14:08.879You build a trail, if no one maintains it, it does not look like a trail in two years.
00:14:09.120 -->
00:14:18.559So you kind of need a lot of you need a certain amount of like use to clear it out, and you need also like a well-enough developed footpath for it to be built.
00:14:18.720 -->
00:14:32.559So I think my guess is a lot of stuff that has developed has been from people who are like mountaineers who are like, I want to go climb peak X, and then they did it, and then it was good enough that the Forest Service maintained it for a period of time.
00:14:32.799 -->
00:14:33.519That's my theory.
00:14:33.600 -->
00:14:40.000There's definitely a bunch of old mines and like you know, Klondike Gold Rush type stuff that there's bits and pieces of.
00:14:40.080 -->
00:14:58.399Um, also like the forest road infrastructure is really interesting, where there's like forest roads that have gone most everywhere in the state, but a lot of them are totally overgrown and with like vine maple or other stuff where you like touch it and you're like, this is worse being on the old forest road than it is just being in like the forest, like going through.
00:14:58.639 -->
00:15:01.919So it's an interesting thing because there's been so much logging in Washington too.
00:15:02.000 -->
00:15:06.240So like logging is a big part of it, or like old rail trails that are now converted to trails.
00:15:06.320 -->
00:15:12.240Like, so the Mount the Mount Cyrase, if you go down Tenerife, is like an old logging road.
00:15:12.320 -->
00:15:13.039Um, for example.
00:15:13.519 -->
00:15:15.919I looked it up on Strava and I was like, ooh, this goes.
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00:15:16.639This looks dope.
00:15:16.960 -->
00:15:17.519It's bad.
00:15:17.600 -->
00:15:26.960I was doing like 530s or something down it, but there was also like a bunch of chunky baby heads, so it's not like uh it's kind of yeah, it always gives people a little bit of grief going down.
00:15:27.519 -->
00:15:28.159Interesting.
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00:15:29.519Yeah, I'll tell you a funny story.
00:15:29.679 -->
00:15:34.799Last time I was out there, um, one of the last times I was out there, I told you I did the Lewitt Trail to run around Mount St.
00:15:34.960 -->
00:15:37.200Helens and I did it totally unsupported.
00:15:37.279 -->
00:15:39.440And this was like probably like four or five years ago.
00:15:39.519 -->
00:15:44.159So this is like right when I'm starting to get like really into stuff in the sport.
00:15:44.399 -->
00:15:47.200And uh what happened was I was supposed to go out there and race.
00:15:47.279 -->
00:15:51.679It was like one of the bigfoot races, like it was like the 20-mile or for whatever reason I didn't do it.
00:15:51.759 -->
00:15:56.720Um, I think I had COVID or something, so I kind of pushed it back uh and still had the flight booked.
00:15:56.799 -->
00:16:00.480So I was like, all right, well, I'll just go a couple weeks later and go check it out and see what it's all about.
00:16:00.799 -->
00:16:04.639And my parents were supposed to, usually they'll come to like one race a year.
00:16:04.799 -->
00:16:08.559Um, and so that they met me out there and we just kind of explored the Pacific Northwest.
00:16:08.639 -->
00:16:12.240But I'm like, all right, this day you guys go do your own thing because I'm gonna run around the Lou Trail.
00:16:12.320 -->
00:16:14.960And I'm like, should take me five or six hours, shouldn't be that bad.
00:16:15.120 -->
00:16:16.480And I did it on support, dude.
00:16:16.559 -->
00:16:19.840It was like a seven and a half hour day, and they were like so worried.
00:16:20.000 -->
00:16:20.879They're like, Did you die?
00:16:21.039 -->
00:16:22.240Because all I had was my in-reach.
00:16:22.480 -->
00:16:24.320They didn't have service, so they couldn't track me.
00:16:24.799 -->
00:16:26.320So a couple hours goes by.
00:16:26.480 -->
00:16:28.879My dad's like, I'm gonna go uh see if I can get service.
00:16:28.960 -->
00:16:32.720And he like takes one of those like really weird forest roads, gets totally lost.
00:16:32.799 -->
00:16:37.279So I I finish and I'm like completely you know, sauced, and I'm like, you know, I just want to eat something.
00:16:37.600 -->
00:16:38.000Ready to go.
00:16:38.080 -->
00:16:38.879Let's go home.
00:16:39.120 -->
00:16:42.480And uh my dad didn't come back for like two hours because he got completely lost.
00:16:43.440 -->
00:16:44.000Classic.
00:16:44.159 -->
00:16:46.879Yeah, yeah, it's very remote, super remote out there.
00:16:46.960 -->
00:16:51.039So yeah, there's there's a lot of there's a lot of open real estate, which is fun.
00:16:51.200 -->
00:16:51.440Yeah.
00:16:51.679 -->
00:16:54.080What is the permitting situation like for a race like this?
00:16:54.159 -->
00:16:54.960Is it easy to get?
00:16:55.120 -->
00:16:58.879Because like where we are, dude, the wilderness permitting is such a pain in the neck to put on a race.
00:16:59.120 -->
00:17:00.639Well, there's just no wilderness permitting, right?
00:17:01.120 -->
00:17:02.559You can't run races in wilderness.
00:17:02.720 -->
00:17:03.679Are there races in wilderness?
00:17:03.919 -->
00:17:04.160Okay, good.
00:17:04.240 -->
00:17:09.680I was like in some places, like uh I think in because it's right outside of Olympic National Park.
00:17:09.839 -->
00:17:11.839Uh I think it's State Forest or something like that.
00:17:11.920 -->
00:17:15.279That's all they're able to put on Beast because it's like that's all State Forest.
00:17:15.359 -->
00:17:54.319So it's the same thing that Matias experiences or any race organization in Washington, which is a hilarious problem now that I'm thinking as a race director as opposed to like a runner through these things of like race directors get pushed into like the I shouldn't use the word budget, but I'm going to into the budget, you know, iconic locations of Washington, where instead of being like you can't be in a national park, you can't be in a wilderness area, Washington has gone through owls, logging, recreation, uh maintaining ecosystem type stuff where they like have a ton of wilderness areas, is the point I'm getting to.
00:17:54.400 -->
00:17:58.880So when you look at a lot of the cascades, most of it you can't have a race on.
00:17:59.039 -->
00:18:03.519So for specifically for North End Trailfest, it works because Mount Psy is DNR land.
00:18:03.680 -->
00:18:05.519So it's Department of Natural Resources.
00:18:05.680 -->
00:18:12.559That has its own issue because they don't have the same kind of relationship as National Forest does.
00:18:12.720 -->
00:18:19.920So National Forest is like treats it's like an agency and they grow where like DNR is more of like a state-run agency.
00:18:20.000 -->
00:18:22.240And so like they had a huge cut in their budget.
00:18:22.400 -->
00:18:23.759Most Washingtonians don't even know this.
00:18:23.839 -->
00:18:30.319They had a huge, huge like cut in their budget that really is making them pull back on like most things, recreation and other things.
00:18:30.480 -->
00:18:34.720So it's great to work with, but it's like really hard because they just have such limited.
00:18:35.039 -->
00:18:40.000There's people who care in DNR, but they have such limited resources, they really have a limited number of options.
00:18:40.160 -->
00:18:43.839One of the things I want to do is like add a 50k to this race that goes over Rattlesnake Ridge.
00:18:43.920 -->
00:18:59.839But the issue with that, for example, is there's like Raging River National Forest, and there's like three quarters of a mile that goes over basically like the Seattle watershed, and that is owned by like a private company, and they're like, just don't so they're like, you know, we don't permit that.
00:18:59.920 -->
00:19:15.119So there's this awesome 10 mile ridge line, and you can't permit it because there's a you know two-thirds of a mile that this, you know, a city agency is like, no, sounds cool, but like we don't have the time for that.
00:19:15.359 -->
00:19:26.240So, you know, that's like a an example of like what you work with when you're out here, um, where you're like, it's so close, but it just has this like section of trail that that doesn't allow you to do that.
00:19:26.480 -->
00:19:29.839What's your take on this, especially as someone that's done so much in the sport?
00:19:30.000 -->
00:19:35.440I mean, you've especially from like the long trail perspective, like you're on so much land and you get to see so much.
00:19:36.160 -->
00:19:39.839Are you for like all this extra stuff as far as protection goes?
00:19:39.920 -->
00:19:41.519Because I've heard a lot of people go back and forth.
00:19:41.839 -->
00:19:54.720Like people get very frustrated about how difficult it is for race directors to get permitting, especially if you're trying uh with all the wilderness locations and stuff like that, and in Colorado, that's a huge I don't want to say issue, but I'm glad that we protect that land.
00:19:54.880 -->
00:19:57.119But it's still a thing that comes up, it makes it precarious.
00:19:57.200 -->
00:19:58.960What's your take on the whole thing?
00:19:59.359 -->
00:20:11.759I think ultimately, I think it's like a fun challenge, and I think it's good in some ways because it prevents true commercialization, like where it's like you know, the doping stuff is like people love talking about the doping stuff right now.
00:20:11.839 -->
00:20:25.039It's like, yeah, well, if you allow someone to have something on that's not on the water list that you don't feel like should be on the water list, but it is on the water list, so you're not supposed to do it, even though you don't think it's a big issue, and people should be able to, you know, use some of those things.
00:20:25.200 -->
00:20:34.880Like you should just give people allow people to do to it in extreme circumstances, and then that's a slippery slope that ultimately leads to like you know, somebody like half the sport blood doping.
00:20:35.039 -->
00:20:35.279Right.
00:20:35.440 -->
00:20:54.400That is kind of a little bit of how I see wilderness areas too, where I'm like, yeah, we can make races happen and we can do them, and it makes it it take it takes some of the aesthetic and some of the experience away because you're removing a very significant area of of land that you could put races on.
00:20:54.640 -->
00:21:04.640Um the the knock on it is there's so much trail that I would love to have like more energy and more support and more maintenance around.
00:21:04.799 -->
00:21:09.759And like the you know, wilderness designation makes it very hard to maintain those areas.
00:21:09.920 -->
00:21:11.680Um, so that's like an interesting one.
00:21:11.759 -->
00:21:14.480But overall, I do kind of I like the protections.
00:21:14.640 -->
00:21:21.519You know, I'm not like a fan of the roadless rule and some of those things that like, yeah, it would be great to be able to bring a chainsaw in.
00:21:21.680 -->
00:21:23.359Uh, you know, and that's certainly an issue.
00:21:23.440 -->
00:21:29.599Like the Leavenworth race, for example, that is the other race that mountain running races put on that I raced direct this year.
00:21:29.680 -->
00:21:36.960Like Scott was out there every weekend for like a month because there was a huge windstorm and he could only use a handsaw.
00:21:37.119 -->
00:21:40.400So it just was like a ton of mass hours.
00:21:40.720 -->
00:21:43.759Yeah, doing handsaws for like, you know, a hundred trees.
00:21:43.839 -->
00:21:53.279And we had to change the course because it was like it goes up this road called Ranger Road, and there were like over 60 trees down on this like hop up to the ridge.
00:21:53.359 -->
00:21:55.599And so it's like we can't clear that.
00:21:55.759 -->
00:21:59.839Like, if you had a chainsaw, you could clear that pretty well, but like we aren't allowed to use chainsaw.
00:22:00.960 -->
00:22:10.400Um so anyway, long story short, yes, like there if there are significant barriers and challenges that race directors experience because of some of the regulation.
00:22:11.279 -->
00:22:19.359I might, you know, feel differently going through a few more years of it as a race director, but right now I'm kind of you know in favor of a lot of the protections that have happened.
00:22:19.599 -->
00:22:20.160I do agree.
00:22:20.319 -->
00:22:33.440Yeah, it's it's it's I guess like maybe the place I come from and is less of like an RD or even running perspective, but more so just like the overuse of like some of the wilderness areas that we experience, like especially in Colorado in the high country.
00:22:33.599 -->
00:22:38.160Uh like some of our 14ers, dude, uh just get it, it's it's pretty rough.
00:22:38.240 -->
00:22:42.319Like the you know, the mass population kind of comes out and experiences these places.
00:22:42.559 -->
00:22:43.279It tears it up.
00:22:43.440 -->
00:22:44.799Yeah, they just kind of abuse it.
00:22:44.960 -->
00:22:50.880And uh, I don't think people even realize like the what goes into trying to maintain some of these places and um stuff like that.
00:22:51.039 -->
00:22:56.880So, you know, I I have mixed emotions on it, but uh, the more we can protect it, uh, you know, I think the better.
00:22:57.039 -->
00:22:59.440Dude, I it's funny, like everybody wants to run hard rock.
00:22:59.519 -->
00:23:03.920And I've I'd gone out a few years, I even got married in Silverton or outside of Silverton.
00:23:04.319 -->
00:23:14.720Uh, and I've always been so like against uh like the over Instagramization of like those lakes because I'm like, oh my god, everybody's gonna go out there and want to see these lakes, and sure shit, that's what happens.
00:23:15.359 -->
00:23:16.000That's exactly right.
00:23:16.240 -->
00:23:21.759Well, I'm a gatekeeper, but still, I mean Katie Podcast.
00:23:21.839 -->
00:23:22.079No.
00:23:22.160 -->
00:23:24.079Uh, but it's a weird, it is a weird thing, right?
00:23:24.160 -->
00:23:30.640Because like the example I'm thinking of is like Section J as a favorite for ultramarathon runners in Washington, which is Section J of the PCT.
00:23:30.720 -->
00:23:36.079It's like 70 miles, really iconic route, and it's almost all wilderness.
00:23:36.240 -->
00:23:48.880And I'm like, if that wasn't wilderness, from like the trail use would be like four race companies would be like, I want my Section J race on, and then we'd have like multiple races on Section J.
00:23:48.960 -->
00:24:25.359There'd be like a sub-ultra on part of it, there'd be like a 200 that uses it, there would be a hundred that uses it, there would be like, you know, so there would be all these, and that's just like trail users wanting to jump on it in a way that like right now it's something that like ultra runners are like, uh, I don't really want to race this year, but like I want to do something really epic, so I'll go out into a wilderness area, and like maybe it's not gonna be super maintained or they're gonna be its own issues, but it's like yeah, it creates a little more sort of serenity or reverence or or really like kind of underneath the surface, like there's more depth, I guess, um to it because of it.
00:24:25.680 -->
00:24:26.319Interesting.
00:24:26.640 -->
00:24:30.319Dude, talk to me about this Leavenworth, uh, the Leavenworth Trellfest uh as well.
00:24:31.279 -->
00:24:32.319I've never been to Leavenworth.
00:24:32.400 -->
00:24:37.759I was literally talking to my parents recently about this because we're uh my parents live in Florida and my sister lives in Philly.
00:24:37.839 -->
00:24:39.200So I've my family's all over the place.
00:24:39.359 -->
00:24:41.519And we're always like, well, what do we thought that way?
00:24:41.680 -->
00:24:42.240I was curious about that.
00:24:42.400 -->
00:24:47.039I grew up in well, half the time in Pennsylvania, and then I did high school and college in Florida.
00:24:47.519 -->
00:24:51.039Like Western Pennsylvania or Eastern, so Phil, outside of Philly.
00:24:51.279 -->
00:24:52.400Nice, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:52.640 -->
00:24:58.799Um, but the uh yeah, so family scattered everywhere, and I'm always like, Well, what are we gonna do for Christmas?
00:24:58.880 -->
00:24:59.599Do you guys want to come here?
00:24:59.759 -->
00:25:00.799Do we want to in Colorado?
00:25:00.960 -->
00:25:01.680Do you want to do it there?
00:25:01.759 -->
00:25:03.119And we're like, why don't we just meet somewhere?
00:25:03.279 -->
00:25:04.960And one of the places we were looking at was Leavenworth.
00:25:05.119 -->
00:25:06.480I was like, this place is fucking dope.
00:25:07.039 -->
00:25:12.240Obviously, Alex lives there, and that's where uh one of the ideas come up because I was like, I gotta go check this place out.
00:25:12.319 -->
00:25:13.119This looks amazing.
00:25:13.279 -->
00:25:14.640It's like the funniest idea.
00:25:14.720 -->
00:25:19.359So basically, Leavenworth, for you if you haven't been there, Leavenworth is on this like mountain highway.
00:25:19.519 -->
00:25:22.559We talked about the I-90 highway that North Bend is on.
00:25:22.720 -->
00:25:26.720If you go one highway up, it's on the eastern side of the Cascade, so it's dry.
00:25:26.799 -->
00:25:33.759It kind of feels like your Flagstaff or uh like bend-ish, bend with more trees, maybe.
00:25:33.920 -->
00:25:44.240And uh it's named you know, Leavenworth because it has this like Alps feel, where like a big some big grassy valleys, but really tall mountains, and the enchantments are close by.
00:25:44.319 -->
00:25:50.400The enchantments is like one of the most iconic like 20 mile routes in Washington and some high country.
00:25:50.559 -->
00:25:54.640Uh and in the 70s, I think it was an MBA program.
00:25:54.880 -->
00:25:56.480Leavenworth was like, no one comes here.
00:25:56.559 -->
00:25:57.680How can we get more people to come here?
00:25:57.759 -->
00:26:04.960So MBA program was tasked with upping its commercial value effectively, and they decided that they should go all in on the German theme.
00:26:05.119 -->
00:26:06.559So like everything is German.
00:26:06.880 -->
00:26:07.599So like, yeah.
00:26:08.480 -->
00:26:17.279And it like is a town, like even like the gas station has like a ye old font, and like they can't use like the normal, like it's uh what is it?
00:26:17.359 -->
00:26:18.160It's not an Arco.
00:26:18.640 -->
00:26:20.319Uh like a I think it's a 76.
00:26:20.400 -->
00:26:27.279They can't use like the normal 76 logo, like everything is like wooden or white, or you know, just like a very Bavarian feeling.
00:26:27.440 -->
00:26:32.000So the town itself is hilarious because it's just this like little slice of Germany in Washington.
00:26:32.160 -->
00:26:37.599And then the Leavenworth race is on the Leavenworth Ski Hill, which used to host a bunch of like ski jumping.
00:26:37.680 -->
00:26:43.119It used to be a big like US ski destination, which now it's like so dry.
00:26:43.200 -->
00:26:45.839Like it's a very small ski resort to begin with.
00:26:46.000 -->
00:26:48.799Um, and it doesn't have that iconicness to it.
00:26:48.880 -->
00:27:01.519But there was a racer who I think he he like a guy who was like a 73-year-old, and he was doing the Lovemore Ski Hill, and he was like, Oh, I ski jumped here like 30 years ago on that hill that you're looking at.
00:27:01.599 -->
00:27:03.759Yeah, there was like a legit ski jump competition.
00:27:03.839 -->
00:27:07.680So, anyway, the course itself is a 25k, beautiful route.
00:27:07.920 -->
00:27:14.319It's mountain bike trails for the first few miles, and then you get up to like awesome ridgeline.
00:27:14.400 -->
00:27:38.960The final like 0.6 miles is like about like a 20 to 25% grade, and a lot of it's some of it's like loose dirt, so it's kind of a hilarious finish to the climb, but you just have like a beautiful sweeping view of all the cascades before you come back down on like really cruiser mountain bike trails for some forest road, a good amount of single track, and then you know, you finish off with some cruzy like mountain bike trails.
00:27:39.039 -->
00:27:45.200So it's like a very, very fast course with like 4,000-ish feet of gain for uh 25k.
00:27:45.519 -->
00:27:46.480That's not bad, dude.
00:27:46.559 -->
00:27:49.200This is this is another reason to go visit out there.
00:27:49.440 -->
00:27:49.759I know.
00:27:49.839 -->
00:27:51.839Well, I I I honestly started working as a race.
00:27:52.079 -->
00:27:59.119So Scott is the guy who started the North Mountain Running Races, and he's like a biker background, and he just is like, this seems so cool for the running community.
00:27:59.200 -->
00:28:00.000I want to keep doing this.
00:28:00.160 -->
00:28:06.880And he's kind of like an older guy, and he's done a great job keeping it going, making it really like community-based.
00:28:07.039 -->
00:28:15.920Like he involves the chamber of commerce in the town and makes it like does some of some really good like groundwork that I really appreciate him doing.
00:28:16.319 -->
00:28:24.079And the the races themselves, because of that, have like this like community and festival vibe at Leavenworth too.
00:28:24.160 -->
00:28:27.920So it's a really fun, like sub-ultra vibe.
00:28:28.000 -->
00:28:33.599And honestly, like the Leavenworth race popped this year, and like North Bend signups have been pretty good.
00:28:33.680 -->
00:28:38.160But I was like, oh, the reason I want to race direct is because I think North Bend could be really amazing.
00:28:38.240 -->
00:28:38.400Yeah.
00:28:38.720 -->
00:28:59.279And then having experienced Leavenworth, I'm like, God, Leavenworth kind of has kind of has like it kind of thing, you know, like a where like a mammoth trail fest kind of vibe, it and like North Bend is like steeper and more rugged, and like 6,000 feet of in 18 miles, 17 miles is a lot for people.
00:28:59.599 -->
00:29:03.279Uh and there's a little less alpine terrain.
00:29:03.440 -->
00:29:14.799So it'll be interesting to see where North Bend lies because I'm like North Bend has a really awesome bones, but it hasn't quite we'll see how much it feels like it really pops this year as an event.
00:29:14.880 -->
00:29:19.039Um, but I was like shocked, like, oh yeah, I'll do Leavenworth because it's also part of the race series.
00:29:19.200 -->
00:29:22.000And uh, and I was really like amazed to be honest.
00:29:22.240 -->
00:29:23.039I think it's great.
00:29:23.119 -->
00:29:24.720I I I mean a few questions off this.
00:29:24.799 -->
00:29:33.920I I'd say first and foremost, um, just the fit in the calendar, I think is I don't even want to say a question, I'd say this is great the where they fit in the calendar and for people to do.
00:29:34.160 -->
00:29:39.440But as far as the idea of creating this trail festival, is that is that's the idea of kind of where you guys want to take it?
00:29:39.519 -->
00:29:43.119Because I think that's that's the move, especially now that it encompasses a few days.
00:29:43.440 -->
00:29:44.960I think we kind of have to lean into it.
00:29:45.039 -->
00:29:50.000I think regardless of what we want to do, like we can't not do that because you're in a town.
00:29:50.160 -->
00:30:01.440And then when I think of like racing, like when I think of what makes Western special and like Auburn, you know, like people in the community are super hyped about it.
00:30:01.680 -->
00:30:11.440And you have local businesses and community members and volunteers who make this into like a real hometown experience.
00:30:11.519 -->
00:30:19.519Whereas when you think of like the Lewitt Trail, you're like, oh, like the Lewitt Trail is the Lewitt Trail.
00:30:19.599 -->
00:30:24.720Like, you're not really going into like the town of Packwood or you know, another like mountain town or community.
00:30:24.799 -->
00:30:38.640You kind of have to make or bring bring the experience to the event where like North Bend and Leavenworth both have a lot of that as long as we can tap into it, stay community focused, and like work with you know local businesses as a big part of the event.
00:30:38.720 -->
00:30:44.480So I think the Trailfest part of it definitely is yeah, kind of integral to where I see it going.
00:30:44.640 -->
00:30:47.519Have you have you ever raced Broken Arrow or been down to Broken Arrow to see it?
00:30:47.759 -->
00:30:50.000Been down, yeah, because I did Western last year.
00:30:50.160 -->
00:30:50.480Yep.
00:30:50.640 -->
00:30:52.000And uh that was last year.
00:30:52.160 -->
00:30:52.319Yeah.
00:30:52.400 -->
00:30:52.559Yeah.
00:30:52.640 -->
00:30:55.680So I was there for like the whole week and got to see Broken Arrow and all that jazz.
00:30:55.920 -->
00:30:59.279It's funny because like so broken arrow to me, I I love broken arrow.
00:30:59.359 -->
00:31:08.319I think what Brandon does is amazing, but the uh how quickly it's grown and what it's grown into, I think is a great case study for other, like just the blueprint, right?
00:31:08.400 -->
00:31:14.960To figure out how to build something like this in the in the Pacific Northwest or even like what Mammoth is doing down south.
00:31:15.200 -->
00:31:27.519Um, but the thing about I don't know, I think like North Bend, for instance, I I think the 30K and I think the VK, I think those particular trails are in just like courses are in my opinion, are much more compelling.
00:31:27.759 -->
00:31:31.119I don't think I was not very impressed by Broken Arrow's courses, if you will.
00:31:31.200 -->
00:31:34.799It's it's it's something for everybody, which I think makes it super approachable.
00:31:35.039 -->
00:31:44.640Um and obviously the the branding behind it and the the machine that is ACG to help grow it is obviously uh, and before that, Solomon has obviously played a huge role.
00:31:44.799 -->
00:31:52.480Um, but like I think you guys are already in a great place with having like really compelling courses that are not just ski roads, it's something different, it's a little bit more, you know.
00:31:52.720 -->
00:31:53.680Yeah, I felt the same way.
00:31:53.759 -->
00:32:01.359Like going to Broken Arrow, I'm like, oh, you're doing the ascent, and it's kind of just like how well can you run up like really steep grade?
00:32:01.519 -->
00:32:01.680Yeah.
00:32:02.000 -->
00:32:33.119Where you know at like the the old side trail, like it's nice, steep single track, and then you'll do a switch back, and then you have like 20 routes, and then you get back on nice single track, and then it is like 15% grade, and then it's like 28% grade, and you're winding your way around it, and it really challenges you in a very interesting way, in a way that like to me is is yeah, sort of like integral to it that does bring like growth issues, right?
00:32:33.200 -->
00:32:52.400Because when you think of the VK that we have, you're starting in like a small parking lot, you know, we have like max 70 participants in the VK, and we definitely would have to work with like DNR or some kind of system to like be a 300-person VK race, which like I don't see happening, you know, even if the race went.
00:32:52.559 -->
00:32:59.359And also just like DNR capacity limits really limits like how many people overall can participate in the race.
00:32:59.519 -->
00:33:05.200Um, so that you know it's it's interesting of like thinking like, yeah, where where does it grow to?
00:33:05.440 -->
00:33:12.720And to me, the the thing that's important is like I do it does need to grow a little bit more just because we've been losing money on the race for a long time.
00:33:13.039 -->
00:33:18.000But um uh like the like end goal, I have a hard time.
00:33:18.160 -->
00:33:20.240Like, we can't really be a broken arrow.
00:33:20.400 -->
00:33:20.640Yeah.
00:33:20.799 -->
00:33:22.400Um but do you want to be?
00:33:22.640 -->
00:33:22.960That's the thing.
00:33:23.039 -->
00:33:24.400You need to it's you kind of want to be.
00:33:24.480 -->
00:33:27.200We're like, yeah, we wouldn't mind if we were, you know.
00:33:27.839 -->
00:33:28.640I don't know, dude.
00:33:28.799 -->
00:33:30.559I I'm like such a contrarian.
00:33:30.640 -->
00:33:33.359Like when something gets super popular, immediately I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore.
00:33:33.440 -->
00:33:34.079I'm gonna go do something else.
00:33:34.160 -->
00:33:34.480Yeah, okay.
00:33:34.799 -->
00:33:35.839I know, I'm the same way.
00:33:35.920 -->
00:33:41.039I'm like, if I got in when it was on the upswing, I'm like, sweet, I did it and I'm out.
00:33:41.119 -->
00:33:44.319And then if I'm on the downswing, I'm like, I'm good.
00:33:44.400 -->
00:33:46.480Yeah, I'll figure something else out.
00:33:47.519 -->
00:33:48.240Same way.
00:33:48.400 -->
00:33:50.720Um, dude, I want to shift gears a little bit.
00:33:50.799 -->
00:33:52.240We talked a little, we talked a lot about the race.
00:33:52.319 -->
00:33:56.720Is there anything you want to add more to the race before we talk about you as the athlete and just some of your stuff?
00:33:57.039 -->
00:33:57.599Good question.
00:33:57.759 -->
00:34:03.519I guess I would just say and encourage people, like come freaking run the race and have a great time.
00:34:03.680 -->
00:34:10.960Like, I'm really having a really fun time, like putting a party together behind the actual race experience.
00:34:11.039 -->
00:34:12.719The elite feel is always really good.
00:34:12.880 -->
00:34:15.840So um, there's like a$4,500 prize purse.
00:34:16.000 -->
00:34:35.039We're also part of something called the Vert Running series, which basically Beast is part of it, Beast of Big Creek, and then there's three other races that participate um in the series, including Leavenworth, to have like a local Pacific Northwest, you know, race two races, and the North Bend is sort of the championship of them all.
00:34:35.119 -->
00:34:38.000So anyway, wanted to highlight like the Vert running series part of it.
00:34:38.079 -->
00:34:40.079So it's a fun competitive field.
00:34:40.239 -->
00:34:58.880Um, there is also, we haven't even talked about there's is like a 10k, which you get to do like a nice peak bag, which I think for a lot of people, when I like, you know, really talk to people about the course who are friends who are like getting into trail running, you know, 6,000 feet in 18 miles is like pretty beefy for a lot of people.
00:34:58.960 -->
00:35:03.280So anyway, that's like an alternative um or something fun that people can do.
00:35:03.440 -->
00:35:08.719There's also like the festival vibes, just because I'm still trying to grapple my head exactly what we're doing.
00:35:08.800 -->
00:35:16.559But there's uh should be food, kombucha, hammer slogan, which is like a German uh stump and hammer game.
00:35:16.719 -->
00:35:20.639So there'll be some like field games, there's a costume race, there's a kids race.
00:35:20.800 -->
00:35:24.639I'm hoping there's gonna be childcare options for people.
00:35:24.880 -->
00:35:35.440Uh so I hoping it's really something that's like family friendly, or if someone's racing that their you know, spouse or partner or aunt could come to and also like hang out for a few hours.
00:35:35.760 -->
00:35:36.320What's the date?
00:35:36.400 -->
00:35:37.360That's the only thing we didn't actually.
00:35:37.599 -->
00:35:39.119Oh my god, October 3rd and 4th.
00:35:39.280 -->
00:35:39.599Check.
00:35:41.760 -->
00:35:42.079Got it.
00:35:42.159 -->
00:35:42.559Yeah, dude.
00:35:42.639 -->
00:35:47.519I think it's uh yeah, I I I I think it's perfectly timed on the calendar too, because it's just one.
00:35:48.559 -->
00:35:59.840I actually sincerely, I'm thinking about maybe moving it up two weeks next year because simply because you just I don't know.
00:36:00.320 -->
00:36:10.880I think a lot of people see October and sub Ultra and are like, I'll think about that in like not in May, June, or July.
00:36:11.199 -->
00:36:20.880Even August, I'm still thinking about Mammoth, or I'm thinking about some other race, and then it's like August or September, and then they're considering North Bend Trail Fest.
00:36:21.039 -->
00:36:27.440So simply from the fact that I think people might see it as a summer race and maybe plan a little bit more ahead of time.
00:36:27.599 -->
00:36:32.320Um, and also like the weather, you know, there's a small chance of rain, slightly less chance of rain.
00:36:32.400 -->
00:36:37.840Anyway, I was curious if you had thoughts of like, but then you put then you're like going at some type of mammoth.
00:36:38.000 -->
00:36:38.239You do?
00:36:38.400 -->
00:36:52.000Yeah, I say keep it for one reason because it's also that's I mean, at least last year and this year, and I know Julian pretty well, and I don't know if they would ever change it, but that's the same weekend as you would be competing with Cirque Series um Crystal.
00:36:52.239 -->
00:36:59.440On top of that, yes, Mammoth Trailfest, you got Pikes Peak, you've got people coming back from UTMB, and it's like, well, what do I do?
00:36:59.599 -->
00:37:16.639Dude, if there's an early October short trail race um that's like super competitive, people will come you know to that because look at D F D Color, which is the uh it's gonna be in Montreal this year, and uh well it's always in Montreal, sorry, it's the WMRA final, but that's October 10th, and people are showing up for that.
00:37:16.800 -->
00:37:18.719Uh, it's gonna be very deep this year.
00:37:18.800 -->
00:37:26.079So um I think of just in terms from looking for something competitive to do early October, you know, once the season starts to die down.
00:37:26.320 -->
00:37:33.360I think we need we need more options at that time because September's just so it's so jam-packed at uh of what's going on.
00:37:34.239 -->
00:37:39.199Okay, well that's a good that's really good feedback because that's one of the things I'm currently thinking of right now is timing.
00:37:39.440 -->
00:37:40.079We could put a poll.
00:37:40.159 -->
00:37:42.880I'll put a poll at the bottom of the episode and we can see that'd be super fun.
00:37:43.039 -->
00:37:44.239I would love to hear what people think.
00:37:44.320 -->
00:37:44.559Yeah.
00:37:44.719 -->
00:37:45.440Wow, look at you.
00:37:46.800 -->
00:37:47.679Think it ahead, dude.
00:37:47.840 -->
00:37:48.880Think it ahead.
00:37:49.760 -->
00:37:54.960Uh, but no, I actually would be curious too, because that's like just the business brain that goes off in my mind as far as like company.
00:37:55.119 -->
00:38:07.679Because I'm I used to be on the uh board of directors for Pikes Peak, and I fought forever to get the race moved back to August because it's like, why are we competing directly with UTM people coming back from UTMB?
00:38:07.760 -->
00:38:15.599It's late in the calendar, people don't want to run up a 14er, and then half the years it's gonna get skunked because we're gonna have snow and it creates an issue.
00:38:15.840 -->
00:38:23.519Um, yeah, I'm I've always been a big proponent of doing if you're gonna run up a 14,000 foot mountain, it should be in July or August, not in September.
00:38:23.679 -->
00:38:24.639You know, yeah.
00:38:24.800 -->
00:38:31.039Well, also also what's oh, this is actually the last thing, which maybe is uh unique for you because I'm in the Pacific Northwest.
00:38:31.119 -->
00:38:33.519We've had so bad such bad smoke this year.
00:38:33.840 -->
00:38:41.760Like Tiananway, which is one of the few like mountain ultra races, and a few other races are shifting from September to earlier.
00:38:41.840 -->
00:38:58.079So I'm like, I could see there being a Pacific Northwest gap in September because right now it's like September and October, early October see a lot of races, and I'm like, we're in one of the areas of the state that doesn't that has a really low wildfire risk and smoke risk.
00:38:58.239 -->
00:39:05.519And anyway, so I'm like, do we lean into the hey, no one's gonna want to race in mid or early September because of smoke?
00:39:05.679 -->
00:39:09.519But we we are one of the races that would feel more confident to do that.
00:39:09.679 -->
00:39:11.280Yeah, um, anyway.
00:39:11.599 -->
00:39:13.440Dude, it's too bad you guys don't have a 50k.
00:39:13.760 -->
00:39:21.199I if I were you, I'd try and see if you can I think they moved it because it was I guess it was day was it, Day Bakes uh Y East Trailfest?
00:39:21.280 -->
00:39:23.440Yeah, yeah, unfortunately that was cancelled.
00:39:23.840 -->
00:39:28.079I would try to get all those people and get them from the 26k to see if they would compete at the 30k.
00:39:28.239 -->
00:39:33.760It's a few months later, but that's uh you know, still have a good throw down at the you know at a big race at the beginning.
00:39:34.159 -->
00:39:37.920We already have a pretty good elite field, so I'm excited about the I'm excited about the race.
00:39:38.159 -->
00:39:38.880Let me ask you this.
00:39:38.960 -->
00:39:42.960Why do you guys, and this is just out of pure curiosity, because some races don't do this and some do.
00:39:43.119 -->
00:39:47.360Why do you guys break it up on ultra sign up of having the elite sign up and then just kind of uh everybody?
00:39:47.840 -->
00:39:48.480That's a good question.
00:39:48.559 -->
00:39:52.639I'm also this is another thing I'm so this is how Scott's always done it, and that's why we do it.
00:39:52.719 -->
00:40:11.440Okay, and the initial the feedback we've gotten is elite, when you have a separate elite field, elite or aspiring elite athletes, granted, you shouldn't feel like you need to be an elite athlete to end like in my opinion, there are very, very few true elite or true professional trail runners.
00:40:11.679 -->
00:40:24.559And so I don't love the elite type name, but anyway, it creates a space for like people who are really interested in like the high-end competitive side of it, who are also happen to be very fit, which is great.
00:40:24.719 -->
00:40:38.480I think the masters piece of it is really nice because it creates a space for like masters athletes and celebrates that as opposed to just being something that's like a oh yeah, and we have them you happen to just be like over 40, so like you happen to be a master's athlete, so like you won.
00:40:38.559 -->
00:40:39.039Congrats.
00:40:39.199 -->
00:40:56.079Like, I feel like a lot of masters categorization, I don't know, you don't really see it broken out, and then the sport division, yeah, just allows people like there's a guy who I coach who's like a three-hour marathoner, and he's like, Oh, I would I want to like try to win the sport division, and that's part of the vert running series, too.
00:40:56.159 -->
00:41:05.199So that the reasons we do it is because it creates a certain type of demographic spacing, and then there's a uh the vert running series aspect of it.
00:41:05.360 -->
00:41:08.800The flip side of that is I think it's terribly confusing for athletes.
00:41:09.039 -->
00:41:11.599That's well, I see I I have conflicting views on this.
00:41:11.679 -->
00:41:18.480I'm actually very for it because I come from the world of the Cirque series where it's set up as pro expert sport, right?
00:41:18.559 -->
00:41:25.119If you're and if you compete as a pro, it's not you don't have to be a professional athlete to uh compete in as as a pro.
00:41:25.280 -->
00:41:27.199It's just that you're competing for the prize money.
00:41:27.280 -->
00:41:30.800Whereas, like if you're in the expert or sport category, you're not competing for the prize money.
00:41:30.880 -->
00:41:31.679So it's it's different.
00:41:31.760 -->
00:41:35.440You compete for free gear or whatever that uh sponsors give away.
00:41:35.599 -->
00:41:38.880Um, so I come from that world to where it makes total sense to me.
00:41:39.039 -->
00:41:43.119I don't know, I don't think it should be confusing because it's uh it should be very black and white.
00:41:43.199 -->
00:41:48.800Whereas if you're competing in the in the elite category or whatever you want to call it, that's counts for your ranking for the prize category.
00:41:48.960 -->
00:41:51.360But in the freaking hole, we got another one done.
00:41:51.519 -->
00:41:52.159You know, yeah.
00:41:52.320 -->
00:41:58.480No, I I have the because this is my theory is I think people go to our race and are like, oh, cool, a 30k.
00:41:58.880 -->
00:42:00.800Oh, am I elite?
00:42:01.039 -->
00:42:01.360No.
00:42:01.920 -->
00:42:02.800Am I sport?
00:42:03.920 -->
00:42:04.719Probably.
00:42:06.159 -->
00:42:07.440I think I'm sport.
00:42:07.679 -->
00:42:10.239And then they forget and then they don't sign up for the race.
00:42:10.400 -->
00:42:19.760That's what I that's what I wonder if the you know customer journey ends up being for a significant number of people versus something that's like, you know, oh sweet, I'm gonna do this like race.
00:42:19.920 -->
00:42:30.960Yep, I just sign up here, and there's not like you know, six different because when you look at the ultra sign up page itself, you have to like scroll down to you know see all the different categorizations.
00:42:31.039 -->
00:42:33.039So it might be ultra sign up too.
00:42:33.119 -->
00:42:40.239That's like the issue because this is something at Pike's Peak we battered back and forth with, and we wound up ultimately moving to run signup just because it was easier.
00:42:40.320 -->
00:42:41.840That's what Circ Series uses.
00:42:42.000 -->
00:42:47.840And I often wonder if maybe just ultra sign up like their interface is just more confusing before that the way it's set up.
00:42:47.920 -->
00:42:50.320But then again, Broken Arrow uses ultra sign up and they have no issues.
00:42:50.400 -->
00:42:53.119Bambooth Trailfest uses ultra sign up and they have no issues.
00:42:53.199 -->
00:42:55.360So I think it just comes down to what you know what works.
00:42:55.519 -->
00:42:56.639But yeah, I don't know.
00:42:56.719 -->
00:43:00.719I think for a race of that size and categorically, I think it can work.
00:43:00.800 -->
00:43:02.400I think it's I think it's fine, you know.
00:43:02.639 -->
00:43:04.480But we will ask the audience, we'll see what people think.
00:43:04.639 -->
00:43:05.519Yeah, ask the audience.
00:43:05.599 -->
00:43:07.679This is the audience is gonna be like, dude, this is exhausting.
00:43:07.760 -->
00:43:10.480I listened to this thing and I had to fill out like 80 questionnaires.
00:43:11.760 -->
00:43:14.559Let's look, they uh people people people are invested.
00:43:14.639 -->
00:43:23.519I had uh two friends, and I think before we move on, um, I had two friends text me after Beast and they were like, Man, I will never I don't want to ever race at a ski resort again.
00:43:23.599 -->
00:43:28.480I just want to do some of these like really sick single track uh climbing races and stuff like that.
00:43:28.639 -->
00:43:35.920And I think that should give you that should give you know give you more stoke because yeah, there's there's no appetite for these types of races, you know.
00:43:36.159 -->
00:43:37.119Yeah, that's really cool to hear.
00:43:37.199 -->
00:43:38.079And it's rare, right?
00:43:38.159 -->
00:43:41.760Like I think of it and I'm like, how many races do this?
00:43:41.840 -->
00:43:42.960Like very few.
00:43:43.199 -->
00:43:49.920But I also come from like the ultra experience background, which is hilarious because I'm like, yeah, I've done Coca Dona three times.
00:43:50.079 -->
00:43:54.639Like, you know, it's a lot of trail, but it's a lot of Arizona trails so far, dude.
00:43:54.719 -->
00:43:55.840I I don't know how you do all right.
00:43:55.920 -->
00:43:59.679So let's talk about you because this is uh I'm just very curious as to to get in.
00:44:00.159 -->
00:44:04.239Mind of the ultra runner just because everything you do is completely opposite of what I do.
00:44:04.320 -->
00:44:06.400It's much much further, much longer.
00:44:06.639 -->
00:44:08.880How uh how does one even do like the JMT?
00:44:09.119 -->
00:44:14.960Like you spent like months like with the spreadsheet, like figuring out splits and times and all this other stuff.
00:44:15.119 -->
00:44:16.800Like, how do you reconcile this?
00:44:17.199 -->
00:44:18.480This is a very funny.
00:44:18.880 -->
00:44:22.079A lot of people like Terra Dower is a great example.
00:44:22.239 -->
00:44:27.760Tara Dower just is like, I'm gonna do the AT and just freaking go.
00:44:28.320 -->
00:44:29.760And then you look at John Kelly.
00:44:29.920 -->
00:44:35.119John Kelly has, and that makes Tara look like she doesn't plan or think about things critically.
00:44:35.199 -->
00:44:37.920She does, but she doesn't really John's a robot.
00:44:38.000 -->
00:44:40.239Yeah, it's less on Tara and more than John's a robot.
00:44:40.320 -->
00:44:50.079John has like Will Peterson is another person like this, where Will Peterson thought he could do the long trail FKT simply because he knows the long trail in Vermont.
00:44:50.239 -->
00:45:09.840He's been on some sections and he parsed out every split of pre like multiple record holders, looked at those times, saw where he could make improvements, and was like, I'm gonna gain six minutes on this section, I'm gonna hit this same time, and I'm gonna gain 20 minutes on this section, where he like made it more of like a mathematical formula.
00:45:10.000 -->
00:45:22.000And as a coach, because I coach people, I always that's always a problem for me is like, do you lean into the vibe, like kind of a vibes-based approach or like a specific scientific approach?
00:45:22.159 -->
00:45:38.559And a good example of where the scientific approach fails is like I've been doing a lot of sweat testing, and I generally sweat like a liter to sometimes up to two liters an hour, and like consistently at like 1.4 plus liters an hour, your body can only really absorb 1.2 liters of water an hour.
00:45:38.639 -->
00:45:43.039So if you just do the simple math, at some point I'm gonna be like a shriveled prune and die.
00:45:43.199 -->
00:45:57.280You know, I'm not gonna be able to keep if I'm keeping my normal sweat rate over 60 hours, I'm gonna have lost more liters of water than you want to to stay alive as a human, which explains why you slow down, of course, right?
00:45:57.360 -->
00:45:58.559And you end up sweating a lot less.
00:45:58.719 -->
00:46:04.480But I was trying to really take hydration and sodium intake seriously because I'd done all this like testing.
00:46:04.559 -->
00:46:22.960So for Coca-Dona, I was really adamant about fluid intake and pumping up sodium intake, and I had calculations, I had A B plans, I had calculation temperatures, I had a very, you know, to the best of my ability, like a model, a sodium loss model for Coca-Dona 250.
00:46:23.039 -->
00:46:27.760And it was probably like one of the worst over hydrating experiences I've had in my life.
00:46:27.920 -->
00:46:46.239So, like, that's a good example where like when you plan too much in a lot of these things, it creates it, it means you spend less and less time like listening to your body and less and less time really sort of reacting to your environment as opposed to trying to like force your body to fit into the environment.
00:46:46.320 -->
00:46:54.400And a great example is like David Roche and High Carb, where like David Roche is like, you know, have eight million milligrams of caffeine as much as your body can handle.
00:46:54.480 -->
00:46:59.199And like I think he posted some workout where he was doing like 600 calories an hour or something like that.
00:46:59.360 -->
00:47:02.559I think it was actually more lunatic, yeah, lunatic, right?
00:47:02.639 -->
00:47:09.679And you're like, okay, that's not you know useful for the majority of runners, but it is great because it inspires people to do higher carb.
00:47:09.840 -->
00:47:20.079And you certainly see the reverse impact effect happen, where certainly some people are performing great with higher carb, and then you have other people with like horrible GI issues and uh yada yada yada.
00:47:20.320 -->
00:47:32.559So anyway, this all comes coming back to the GMT, which I'm now getting digressing, is like I have a certain like yin and yang of like I've done it twice as an FKT, I've through hiked it with my wife.
00:47:32.719 -->
00:47:38.559I did the PCT in 2014, which you basically do mostly the JMT as you go through the Sierra.
00:47:38.639 -->
00:47:54.880I've been a backpacking guide for six years, I've been running ultras for over 10 years, so like I know a lot of these things, and I now have you know a certain sense of what I need to do, but it's probably like actually less articulated than it has been in previous years.
00:47:55.119 -->
00:48:05.039And the example I was giving back to with this girl that coach Caroline Himber just said the JMT FKT, she went like 12 hours faster than last year, and she's more of a vibes-based runner as well.
00:48:05.199 -->
00:48:11.599Um, but she was much more cavalier about being like, you know what, I'm just gonna do the JMT because it kind of works right now.
00:48:11.679 -->
00:48:13.760And I was like, I think you should wait a month to do it.
00:48:13.920 -->
00:48:16.480She's like, actually, I'm gonna just do it now, and she crushed it.
00:48:16.559 -->
00:48:21.760Like she went 12 hours faster, said the overall women's FKT and like had a huge PR.
00:48:22.079 -->
00:48:36.239Anyway, I'm really going off on my own little tangent here, but all that comes back to say is like it's very interesting thinking about planning for ultras because there's a wide spectrum of what you can do, and sometimes planning more isn't necessarily helpful.
00:48:36.559 -->
00:48:37.519Interesting.
00:48:37.760 -->
00:48:41.440I I have so many questions, so I'm just gonna kind of fire away if you're good on this.
00:48:41.679 -->
00:48:44.320I'll try to I'm gonna limit two sentence answers.
00:48:44.480 -->
00:48:48.239Okay, like first one is I'm gonna I'm gonna start wide and we'll start narrowing down.
00:48:48.480 -->
00:48:55.280You're an interesting athlete in my perspective because you've been able to make it on the FKT scene and on the racing scene.
00:48:55.440 -->
00:48:58.960Some people type to like some people like choose a thing and it's like their niche.
00:48:59.119 -->
00:49:00.800You're good at like everything, dude.
00:49:01.039 -->
00:49:02.320How do you reconcile that?
00:49:02.400 -->
00:49:06.480Do you just do you just follow your passions and what you're interested in, and that's where the success comes?
00:49:06.719 -->
00:49:11.440Or do you have you had like big goals for you know since you started this kind of kind of this?
00:49:11.840 -->
00:49:12.960It changed so much as an athlete.
00:49:13.280 -->
00:49:18.159My development as an athlete was oh, I said the PCT FKT when I was 23.
00:49:18.239 -->
00:49:19.599I never have to run again in my life.
00:49:19.679 -->
00:49:22.559I just ran as a collegiate miler, I never have to run again in my life.
00:49:22.639 -->
00:49:26.079And then it transitioned to if I were to do this again, I would do the AT.
00:49:26.159 -->
00:49:28.320And I was much more inspired to do the AT.
00:49:28.639 -->
00:49:34.079And I did that three years later than I was to like run ultras, but ultras allowed me to get better at doing FKTs.
00:49:34.239 -->
00:49:37.039And then I was like, okay, now I'm an ultra runner.
00:49:37.119 -->
00:49:50.400Then I got my butt smacked at CCC two years in a row when I was running for Columbia, and then 2020 hit, so then I've all the races got canceled, and I was like, well, might as well lean into this FKT thing pretty hard, especially since I got laid off from my job.
00:49:50.639 -->
00:50:14.559So I feel like it's almost been like this TikTok on my career of being like, sometimes I've you know been FKT focused, and sometimes I've been um uh race focused, and um like you know, right now I've kind of been in this realm of like do the Kokodona and JMT every two years, and then on the off year, do like a Western states angle.
00:50:14.960 -->
00:50:18.559How how has how have goals changed since becoming a dad?
00:50:18.719 -->
00:50:30.480Like have you adjusted any of those goals as far as like wanting to do anything abroad or stay now staying more, you know, to the uh I guess the Cocodona and then JMT and obviously a little bit closer to home?
00:50:31.360 -->
00:50:33.840Yeah, I don't quite know, to be honest.
00:50:33.920 -->
00:50:35.760You know, I'm six months into dad life.
00:50:35.840 -->
00:50:36.960I'm would you actually be okay?
00:50:37.039 -->
00:50:38.320I think Katie might bring Jack down.
00:50:38.480 -->
00:50:39.119Yeah, dude, that's fine.
00:50:40.400 -->
00:50:41.440Okay, bring him on, dude.
00:50:41.519 -->
00:50:42.000Let's do it.
00:50:42.159 -->
00:50:43.760It'll be the first baby on a podcast.
00:50:44.000 -->
00:50:47.920I told Katie I was gonna provide dad care at one o'clock, and we're currently at one o'clock.
00:50:48.000 -->
00:50:53.360And I but I think we can do bring him down and and we'll make we'll make it work.
00:51:08.719 -->
00:51:09.360Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:51:09.440 -->
00:51:09.760We're good.
00:51:09.840 -->
00:51:11.280I don't know, so something just happened.
00:51:11.360 -->
00:51:12.320I don't know what it was.
00:51:14.559 -->
00:51:17.920I mean, no, dude, it can be worse than Liam Myro, who's baking a banana bread.
00:51:18.079 -->
00:51:22.000In the meantime, he's like, hey, hold on, I need to get my banana bread out of the oven.
00:51:58.239 -->
00:51:58.880Yes.
00:52:00.239 -->
00:52:01.599Think of it as like an intermission.
00:52:01.679 -->
00:52:02.559There you go.
00:52:06.880 -->
00:52:08.159That's totally fine.
00:52:08.400 -->
00:52:10.000Dude, he's adorable.
00:52:10.239 -->
00:52:15.280Um all right, so we talked about I mean, we'll wind down because we only we don't have too much time left.
00:52:15.360 -->
00:52:17.119I want to be respectful of your time.
00:52:21.199 -->
00:52:22.079Yeah, yeah.
00:53:41.760 -->
00:54:08.159So, I think that's what I'm saying.
00:54:26.800 -->
00:54:27.679And Jack doesn't know.
00:54:27.840 -->
00:54:34.719It's funny, I was just talking to I had Christian Allen on the podcast the other day, and you know, he's been crushing it, but he's over in Europe and he's got a the whole clan out there with him.
00:54:34.800 -->
00:54:37.039I think he has four, four kids, and they're a bit older.
00:54:37.119 -->
00:54:42.880They're I think somewhere between six to maybe in the six range, maybe a little older, a little younger.
00:54:43.039 -->
00:54:44.719So they they know what's going on now.
00:54:44.800 -->
00:54:48.239And like I think that's important to get to see dad doing his thing, right?
00:54:48.320 -->
00:54:55.679It's I think it's inspiring at a young age, but when they're an infant, I think it's if anything, it's uh you know, it's a bit it's a lot harder.
00:54:55.760 -->
00:55:07.519So yeah, I think that's a good thing.
00:55:30.800 -->
00:55:32.159What do shift gears really quick?
00:55:32.239 -->
00:55:35.039I got like a hot take question for you that I've been very curious on.
00:55:35.199 -->
00:55:48.719Um this is more of like a I was very surprised, and um, because I I don't participate in that aspect of the sport from the 200 milers and stuff like that, but I still view it as a very difficult thing, and it's a completely different aspect of the sport from something like I do or I cover.
00:55:48.800 -->
00:55:52.480So I have immense respect for it because I don't do it and I feel like it's very hard.
00:55:52.719 -->
00:55:56.400What did you think of Francesco Poopy's uh comments recently?
00:55:56.639 -->
00:56:00.000He made a comment about it not being an aspect of or a part of the sport.
00:56:00.079 -->
00:56:02.800And I was like, I I thought there was a very callous thing to say.
00:56:02.960 -->
00:56:04.000I didn't like that.
00:56:04.239 -->
00:56:04.880Yeah.
00:58:21.920 -->
00:58:22.480Yeah.
00:58:26.480 -->
00:58:27.360No, I think it's great.
00:58:27.440 -->
00:58:28.719No, and I appreciate the take on it.
00:58:28.800 -->
00:58:29.519I was just very curious.
00:58:29.599 -->
00:58:30.559I thought about this a while ago.
00:58:30.639 -->
00:58:36.400And dude, like the yeah, I got upset because I was like, dude, H Rachel could very well win UTMB this year, and I wouldn't at all be surprised.
00:58:36.559 -->
00:58:38.320Like, she's an amazing athlete.
00:58:38.480 -->
00:58:44.960Like, not overall, but like she for the women, I think she she has a great shot to actually win that race or do very well there.
00:58:48.239 -->
00:58:58.480Well yes, talk about that.
00:58:58.559 -->
00:59:00.639Like, what are your th what are your thoughts on that?
00:59:46.719 -->
00:59:47.360Yes.
00:59:51.840 -->
00:59:52.480Interesting.
00:59:52.639 -->
00:59:53.440No, I appreciate it.
00:59:53.519 -->
00:59:54.639I appreciate it.
00:59:55.840 -->
00:59:56.880No, you're good, you're good.
00:59:56.960 -->
01:00:00.960I don't wanna I don't want you to say anything that uh we could talk talk about off offline.
01:00:01.199 -->
01:00:08.000No, I've been I don't know, I've been on one on my poopy lately, but I've also been on one on the influencers lately with uh because I do I feel like the same thing about Leadville.
01:00:08.159 -->
01:00:10.239Like I feel like Leadville has become like an influencer race.
01:00:10.320 -->
01:00:11.280I'm like, this is weird.
01:00:11.599 -->
01:00:16.960Like what why do all the like the Austin like bros like think think Leadville is like the cool thing to do now?
01:00:17.039 -->
01:00:18.400I don't understand it.
01:01:34.719 -->
01:01:36.800Has that raised your profile at all, too?
01:01:36.880 -->
01:01:42.480Because, like, you know, when I think of like long trail, you're one of the first people that come to mind for me for for racing stuff like that.
01:01:42.800 -->
01:01:46.320And I know in all the documentaries and stuff like that, like people know who you are now.
01:01:46.480 -->
01:01:55.119Has that like, you know, just kind of raised your profile, and now people are coming to you for advice and asking you things, and uh I've yeah.
01:03:37.599 -->
01:03:39.519Well, Joe, with that, I'd want to give you some time back.
01:03:39.599 -->
01:03:40.639I don't want to take all your time.
01:03:40.719 -->
01:03:46.559Dude, it was so nice to get to uh oh, dude, he's he's absolutely adorable.
01:03:46.719 -->
01:03:48.960Uh dude, thank you so much for coming on the show.
01:03:49.119 -->
01:03:53.440I will link uh North Bend Trail Fest in the show notes so people can sign up.
01:03:53.599 -->
01:03:55.679Um and yeah, we'll be we'll be in touch.
01:03:55.760 -->
01:03:59.199And uh again, I want to say how much I just I really appreciate your time.
01:04:00.960 -->
01:04:01.679See you, bud.
01:04:02.000 -->
01:04:02.559Bye, bud.
01:04:05.360 -->
01:04:06.800Guys, how's your feet?
01:04:07.039 -->
01:04:08.159Like seriously, yeah.
01:04:08.559 -->
01:04:10.239How's uh how are your feet doing?
01:04:10.400 -->
01:04:16.000Um I'm sure if you're listening to this, you're a runner or an athlete of some kind, uh, in one way or another.
01:04:16.239 -->
01:04:27.440And as most athletes do, everybody struggles with injury one way or another, and foot care is like one of the most important things when it comes to injury mitigation or just dealing with injuries in general.
01:04:27.599 -->
01:04:30.880Um, everything from plantar fasciitis, peroneal issues.
01:04:30.960 -->
01:04:33.679Uh, a lot of people deal with blisters in the sport.
01:04:33.760 -->
01:04:35.360Uh kind of the list goes on.
01:04:35.519 -->
01:04:38.639It's a great opportunity for me to talk about our partner, Cetus US.
01:04:38.880 -->
01:04:45.679Um, I've been partnering with them for a couple of years now, and man, the products have just gone such a long way for me as an athlete personally.
01:04:45.840 -->
01:04:54.719Um a couple months back, I'd been dealing with some peroneal issues and some planter issues on my left foot, and uh got hooked up with some of the Cetus insults.
01:04:54.800 -->
01:05:01.039Um, it was the trail three feet, and man, it went such a long way in helping me rehab that foot and just helped a ton.
01:05:01.199 -->
01:05:05.440Um, on top of that, big fan of the socks and big believer in the socks as well.
01:05:05.599 -->
01:05:08.639I use them all the time because they're amazing.
01:05:08.719 -->
01:05:09.920Uh, but they're all seriousness.
01:05:10.079 -->
01:05:20.400I'm sure you've seen like Jim Bobsley, Hidden Hawks, and then you know, some of the best women in the sport, like Robin Lash, um, or even on the ski side, uh Jesse Diggins rocking uh the seat as feet.
01:05:20.559 -->
01:05:23.519And um, for me personally, it's the run anatomic comfort.
01:05:23.599 -->
01:05:25.119I absolutely love the socks.
01:05:25.360 -->
01:05:32.880Um, it's got reinforced protection, it's got a great grip strip to keep the sock from kind of moving within uh the shoe.
01:05:32.960 -->
01:05:38.400It's breathable and it's got great protection, especially for technical trails for your heels and your toes.
01:05:38.559 -->
01:05:42.639And uh above all else, it's breathable, so it's not gonna stink too bad.
01:05:42.719 -->
01:05:47.840Uh, my wife definitely gives uh thumbs up when it comes to that to have two stinky feet or stinky socks.
01:05:48.000 -->
01:05:55.440So if you haven't already, go online, check out CDS.us, and if you find something you like, use code Steep Stuff.
01:05:55.519 -->
01:05:57.119It's good for one use only.
01:05:57.360 -->
01:06:01.679It's gonna get you 20% off your car and uh giving you guys the hookup.
01:06:01.760 -->
01:06:02.800So hope you enjoy it.
01:06:02.960 -->
01:06:06.079Check it out, CDS.us installs and stocks.
01:06:06.159 -->
01:06:07.360They've got the best in the game.
