Toussaint Williams, PhD: Ron gave us a real reminder that leadership isn't always about title, authority. What do you do when you carry real responsibility, but you're not the one with the final word? or being the loudest person in the room. What do do when people need coaching? So Ron, thank you and welcome to the Serving Second podcast. So glad to have you today. How are you doing? Real leadership shows up how you coach people, how you listen to others. culture in detail.
Ron Reich: good good first of all to us on thank you for having me i appreciate it
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Trust is fragile. how you correct. And yet somehow everyone is looking to you to hold it together. No problem, no problem. Now let me ask you this. I just want to jump into our conversation for those who haven't had an opportunity to connect with you. What got you into leadership and specifically leadership development? Welcome to the Serving Second podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Toussaint Williams. and how you help others grow even when the pressure is real and the challenges are tough.
Ron Reich: to side unit it's it's an interesting story it's a long story and i'll keep it short i started my career so many years ago in h r and it was fine i had fun it wasn't something about which i was in credibly passionate yet i certainly didn't dislike it my point simply is after a while some friends of us from some friends of mine and i had to an hr consulting firm
Toussaint Williams, PhD: and that family is the heart of serving second. Today we're going to be talking about one of the hardest parts of leadership. Helping people grow when you're leading from the middle. Today our guest is Ron Rich. I would encourage you to sign up to subscribe, to do what you need to do to stay connected to the serving second audience.
Ron Reich: We did that for a number of years and for a couple of different reasons, we decided to shut the doors. And I was going through a divorce at the time. I had nowhere to go except back in with my mom and dad, just nowhere. So I went back with them out of nowhere. I got a telephone call from a guy in Dallas, Texas. Tom Sparks was his name. Ron, have a job with Toshiba that is the exact opposite of what you are.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: a leadership and management expert with over 30 years of experience. Leave a comment below so you can let another leader know what resonated with you. He's helped leaders build strong teams. Family remember, our theme at Serving Second Podcast is the mission I serve is bigger than my title. That's right, the mission that I serve is bigger than my title. next week, I look forward to connecting with you. Take care, God bless. Have better conversations. Give honest feedback and create cultures where everybody wins.
Ron Reich: They're looking for somebody who has a lot of training, some HR. You have a lot of HR and some training. I know the people there extremely well. I can get you in front of them. Your job is to get them to flip their competencies. I went in, talked to them, they flipped them. I started off in sales training and I was doing that for a while. Barbara, Jack and Tony saw something in me.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: So if you've ever asked yourself, how do I coach people without pushing them too hard? How do I lead different personalities and do it very well? How do I keep people engaged when I'm tired too? Then family, this episode is for you. I need you to make sure you like, comment, and subscribe on this episode so other Second Chair leaders can have an opportunity to experience what you are going to experience today.
Ron Reich: that I didn't see it myself. And they were saying, you know what, we do manage some management development here and some other things like that. How interested would you be? And I was like, man, I'm all in. And one thing led to the next, and 32 years later, here I am.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: What an awesome experience. And thank God for those individuals that kind of saw that in you. What would, when you had that experience, where did you kind of see, oh, this is a possible opportunity, or is this just something you just wanted to try out?
Ron Reich: You know, one thing to son, and this is the, it's a classic phrase, and I mean it with every fiber I have. One of the most important parts of my career and one of the most important parts of my being is just, is the ability to make a difference. I want to make a difference. And when I started to get into the training and especially the leadership development training, realizing, wow, this is impacting lives. This is just changing lives. And I think that's one of the biggest reasons I love it so much, because I am able to make a difference. And that's a key part, like I said, of who I am as an individual.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Let's explore that a little bit more as you're talking about making a difference. For the folks we're talking about here in serving second, most of them, if not all of us, are individuals who serve as assistants or vice or in some second chair role. How could they make a difference in that role versus most people identify or some folks look at making a difference as the top seat? How would they be able to do that?
Ron Reich: You know what, I'm going to answer that by bringing up an old colleague of mine. Dave, I've worked with Dave Beverly for quite a few years. He used to say all the time, you never know when you're making a difference in someone's life, ever. And that makes so much sense to me. And, you know, I've been in that second chair many, many times. And again, it doesn't make a It does make a difference still and all. My point, it's just, hey, whatever you need to do to help the person who was either running the show or even when I would go on and do my parts, making a difference like that is just so critical, just so critical. And for me, I've been very blessed throughout the years, for the most part, not everybody. A lot of people in that first chair, if you will, didn't have the ego relative to, I'm running this, I'm in charge, you're here to help me, and you serve me. And that kind of thing makes it difficult for me. I'll still do it, yes. I'm a heck of a lot more passionate and just a heck of a lot more, I don't know what word I'm looking for, I guess willing. when I'm empowered to do my thing.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yeah. So when you were in those secondary roles, were there any frustrations that you kind of felt like, man, this was a little bit more of a challenge and how did you navigate that?
Ron Reich: You know, part of it is to realizing what do I control and what don't I control. And for me, Toussaint, I am such a believer in, one of my mantras has been for a long, long time now, stay out of the results business. And what I mean by that, I try to do everything possible within my control to contribute to a situation to help to ⁓ solve a problem, prevent a problem, whatever it might be. And if I don't have control over it, I need to let that go. I mean, I just need to let that go. When I left Toshiba, okay, and I joined a competitor, I won't say who, because it wasn't a good experience and I don't like to bash other organizations. I got there and first of all, I did not know. how high the bar was set at Toshiba. I had no clue how unbelievably talented those people were. I joined this competitor, the bar at Toshiba is here, the bar at the other organization is way down here. And I was like, folks, look, here are some things we can do to get better. We can implement this, can do this, a lot of different things. ⁓ no, no, no, no, no, we can't do that, we can't do that. Absolutely not. No, we can't do that. And, you know, I was in the second chair, if you will, because I wasn't running the department. I kept talking to my boss and he's like, No, we can't do that. I did everything I could within my, within my sphere of control, if you will. And the people I was working with, and I'm proud of this, were all saying to me, Wow, this is great. This is great. We should really be making these changes. And know, my boss, no, no, we can't do that. We can't do that. And finally, I was like, all right, nothing's going to change here. I'm done. I'm leaving. And that's what I ended up doing. Because if I can't control it and I've done everything within my power, then I have to give up. I give up my right to complain about it. Because then I'm just living in the problem, not the solution.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: I really like how you said that. First of all, I can control what I can control. And then living in the problem, not the solution, is crazy because you said that. It's almost echoed when my mom, my parents used to tell me when I was much younger, you're either part of the problem or you're part of the solution. And I just think that's so key when it comes to leadership. I want to just kind of push you a little bit further when you're talking about leaders and specifically when it comes to leadership development. I know that's one of the passions that you have.
Ron Reich: you Exactly. Yeah, yeah. you
Toussaint Williams, PhD: kind of share with us what was that thing that kind of got you into leadership development and what are the things that really energizes you when it comes to developing leaders.
Ron Reich: I seeing the lights go on for people. mean, that is just so much fun for me. I mean, I I'm by myself. I'm a one man show. And given that I don't have a tremendous amount of bandwidth, I work with mostly smaller midsize firms. And I'll be working with the senior leaders and just other people like that. And a lot of times these smaller organizations have had very little exposure to any real training and development and those kinds of things. And to see them, like, ⁓ my goodness, this is amazing. ⁓ my goodness, how could we not have been doing these things? First of all, that energizes me because again, I circle back. It makes a difference. It makes a difference to them. It's gonna make a difference to the people with whom they work and the organization. overall. you know, one of the nice things too, I'm going to maybe a little bit off topic here, whatever, just relative to making a difference though, one of the nicest compliments I got was years ago, second chair in a training session, we had finished up, I was with Santa Fe Aventas, the big pharma. And one of the participants came up to me, shook my hand, Ron, thank you so much. That was just a great session. I got so much out of it. I was like, ⁓ you know, good, you're welcome. He leaned into me and said quietly, goes, it was something else too. And I thought I knew where he was going with it. And I was like, what? He leaned in he goes, Ron, that was two days of fabulous marriage counseling. And that's what I thought he was going to say. And to start again, my point is, it makes a difference for everybody. It's not just, ⁓ for me as a professional, this is helpful. And the organization, it encompasses everything in someone's life. that, again, how does it get better than that for me?
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Man, so what I'm hearing is you said that the lessons you got were not just for, this is business related, I can put it in this box, in this sphere, but as you're developing, you wanna develop in a sense the whole person so that when they go home, they can benefit when they're dealing with their kids or all other places. And I like that because for leaders, I don't want the lessons that they're learning just to be in a specific, this is for your job and your job only.
Ron Reich: ⁓ Exactly. That's it. That's exactly it. Right, I'll put it away now because I'm going home or whatever. No, no, not at all. I mean, all of that, the need for recognition, delivering behaviorally based feedback, listening effectively, getting to know yourself very, very well and helping your family, helping the kids to understand those things. Absolutely.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yeah Now I want to speak to specifically when you're dealing with individuals, you're kind of dealing with coaching. And if we're talking to one of the individuals here serving second there to listen to this podcast, they may have to deal with some training for individuals that are on their team. How do they do that without sounding harsh or critical or overbearing when it comes to, let's say, coaching up their team? How do they do that without it being ⁓ looking down upon somebody else on their squad?
Ron Reich: You know, I think one of the biggest things here is I'm a huge believer in Stephen Covey's work, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Habit two, begin with the end in mind. And one of the things for me that I always say to people and always recommend to people, if I'm going to be coaching you or someone has said, know, we'd like you to coach Tassant. Tassant, I'm here. My goal here is to make you better. My goal is to help you to develop. It's not, it's not, Toussaint, you're bad. You need fixing, Toussaint. Not at all. And I think that needs to be one of the biggest approaches. You know, there's a client with whom I'll be working in Long Island in May. And I think that's one of the concerns that the senior leaders have, because they've done very, very little training over the years. And they're thinking, I We're afraid, we're afraid that the people coming are gonna view this as they're being punished. And it's like, no, you're not being punished, we're investing in you. Look at the money we're spending here and we're doing it to make you better so the employees can be better and so that we can all be better. And that to me is one of the, that's how I like to frame things.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm-hmm. of hey listen when I go in instead of trying to I'm deal with some of your weaknesses how can we all grow together and once we deal with this or handle this that makes all the difference in the world it is crazy you know as you're talking go ahead
Ron Reich: Exactly. Well, you know what, if you don't mind, Tasad, because again, you're reminding me of something that I think is critical here, and that is, especially in these smaller mid-size organizations, the senior leaders need to go through everything as well. They need to be a part of it. Instead of, ⁓ yes, they need the training. ⁓ I'm too busy, or my team is too busy for this.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mmm.
Ron Reich: What message is that? And I said, so often I will hear from people. again, it's like, great training. ⁓ my goodness, this has been fabulous. Or the coaching, they need it. They need ⁓ it. And I get that. ⁓
Toussaint Williams, PhD: So can you just real quick before we shift gears, can you speak to that mindset of the importance of especially in these smaller groups, why would that be important for that leader to go through it as well with them, with the rest of the team?
Ron Reich: Number one, consistency. Number two, nothing is beneath me. Nothing is beneath me. I need this training. We all need this. We are all in this together. And together is how we are going to do this. otherwise, you have the weakness or the... the inconsistency and it makes no sense and people know that. mean people are just are not stupid or it's like she didn't go through that. They didn't go through it. They want us to. What sense does that make? Guys, I get it. I know. I know.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: So for that leader who's identifying, hey, I wanna bring some training or I wanna bring Ron in, the importance is making sure everybody recognizes we're on this growth path together. We're all moving in the same direction. I love that concept.
Ron Reich: BOOM! And it's, the key thing you just said, Tucson, as far as I'm concerned, we, we are all moving in this direction and we're all committed to it. You know, and I mean, it's, it's, it's, so interesting because I have a client in Indianapolis. They are a, they're a heavy duty towing company slash transport company and they are all in.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yeah.
Ron Reich: They are all in. Jeff, the owner, and the other senior leaders, they're small too. They're about 100, for argument's sake, about 100 person ⁓ company. They've gone through it. They've walked the walk. They've talked the talk. And you can see it from the other employees where it's like, yep, they're buying into it compared to another organization, a food company with whom I worked.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm-hmm.
Ron Reich: here in New Jersey, took them through some similar stuff and the senior leaders are just fading out of it, fading out of it, fading out of it and it's not going to make a difference and I've told them that. like guys, you may as well stop because you're throwing money away. It just makes no sense to me and again it's sad and people don't understand. We're too busy, we're too busy, we have too much going on. like, yeah, you have too much going on because there's too much inconsistency with everything else. Nobody knows what anybody's doing and all that.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: I really appreciate just that level of congruency that needs to happen through the organization, particularly as these are growing, you want to make sure everybody's on the same page, focusing on that we. Now, one of the things I also looked at, I really appreciated from your journey is being able to deal with different personalities.
Ron Reich: BOOM!
Toussaint Williams, PhD: What does that look like and what does an individual need to do if I'm in that trucking company and I want to be able to kind of grow? But my team is a lot of different groups and not everybody thinks the same way. How do you navigate that from the personality side?
Ron Reich: you I am, I have been, and I always will be a big, big believer in personality assessments, particularly the disc instrument, if you know it, Toussaint. And yeah, I can see you nodding. And for me, it's just, I said earlier, a little bit, I alluded to it. The disc instrument for me allows people to get to know themselves on a much deeper level.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yes, sir.
Ron Reich: It is steeped in research, very accurate, helps you to get to know yourself, like I said, on a much deeper level. Additionally, it's so easy to, it's so helpful because it allows you to understand what other people's personalities are, what their priorities are, and how they tend to translate situations. And that for me is one of the biggest ways to be able to navigate different types of personalities and allowing leaders to understand, wow, we need diversity on this team. We need people who are relationship oriented. We need people who are task oriented. I need people who are energetic and rah rah. We need people who are the second chairs, behind the scenes. doing the grunt work, doing the research, all of these different things come together. What's that called? To me it's called success.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yes, I love that. And I've actually been dis-certified and I'm a high S, you know, and most people who serve second are in that, that idea. And so it's so interesting, you know, being able to, a friend of mine who does the disc assessment, they call it the airplane side. so we, S's are almost like the ground screw. They're a little bit everywhere. They're able to kind of navigate.
Ron Reich: Okay, I'm not surprised. I am too. ⁓ you
Toussaint Williams, PhD: The pilots are high D and I are like the flight attendants. And that's just kind of, love the journey and how you do that. But when you show up, how do you have administered the test and then get everybody to kind of see where they are? If we were in a workshop real quick with Ron, what would that day look like?
Ron Reich: Yeah. Yeah. For me, Toussaint, I always tell people, if you're going to do the disc right, I need at least three hours. At least three hours to do it. And for me, the setup is, number one, it's fun. And that's important so that if people haven't been through it before, it's not like, it's a personality test. No, it's an assessment. And I mean, that's one of the things that I also emphasize to people is that folks listen.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Got it.
Ron Reich: This is an assessment, no more, no less. It's also the best instrument on the market, in my opinion. And I outline for them the reasons for that. And I just let them know, is like, hey, you guys, this is gonna be a lot of fun. It's interactive. What I do with them, I have them complete it. I have them find out about themselves first. How accurate is this for you folks? And everybody in the room. 99 % of the time is nodding their heads where it's like, whoa, this is like scary accurate. So now they know about themselves. And then we get into a big activity where they learn about the other styles is that all four styles work together. They answer some questions about themselves. And then we talk about how can the high Ds work with the I's. How can the Ds work with the Cs? How can the Cs work with and so forth? The phrase that I always use, and it's always fun, very simply, you always want to deliver your message, always. The best way to do that is by speaking their language. And their language for the D is results. Their language for the I, high energy, optimism, being people-oriented. For the studies,
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm-hmm.
Ron Reich: They like you to be calmer. They prefer smaller groups to work with. The Cs, give them data. Give them time to plan. Give them time to think. And again, when you do that, you're going to work effectively together.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: You know, it's so interesting you said that because as you were talking, I just heard my wife talking about, hey, I need to have a plan for this event that we're doing and where we're going. She's high C, of course. And just, you're absolutely, I can give all the energy in the world. I can give all the direction, but until she has a plan, until she understands where we're going, it's almost like I'm not even doing anything. And so you're absolutely correct. You're not only for business, but also in marriage as well, but just understanding those personalities.
Ron Reich: Yeah, exactly, All right. There it is. That's exactly it. I mean, that's exactly it. My wife is a very, very high C. And she's the most organized person I've ever known in my life. Sometimes to a point where it appears to be too much. And that's another key thing appears to be because I'll tell you what, we love to travel and she'll start packing.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm-hmm.
Ron Reich: a month in advance and just putting things out, getting things ready. sometimes I'll just shake my head every single time I need something when we're overseas or wherever. Lori, where's the, ⁓ it's right here. And it's like, man, you're right.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yeah. You are absolutely, I think we'd be married to cousins because it seems like my wife has the same thing. I would like, does, in my mind, don't, why do even need that? But as soon as we get over there, some random charcoal pill or some type of medicine that's, look under the counter. I mean, under the bag, under the, that's exactly it. So, know, shout out to the C's. We need you, we love you guys. We definitely, yes, especially we need it. You know, the.
Ron Reich: that's exactly right That's right, we need you, we love you. Well, and just so you know what though, let's stop just for a second if you don't mind. Just because, you know, the shout out for the season. Yeah, absolutely. The other thing that's so important here though for me are the shout outs that need to go to the second chairs, the support staff, and things like that. And I always try to do that.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm-hmm.
Ron Reich: because the recognition for the people behind the scenes is so important. And I say this to people all the time, is that I was so fortunate and so blessed. was a keynote speaker for an organization. I was out in Phoenix a couple of years ago. ⁓ Actually, I took them through the desk and we were almost finished. And I just said, said, know what, everybody, before we completely wrap up here, I've got to take a minute.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm.
Ron Reich: And I've got to thank everybody who helped with the setup, who got the instruments out, everything else. Guys, without the behind the scenes work, this does not come off seamlessly. Because it came off seamlessly. And I was looking at the audit, does it come off seamlessly? And they were like, yes, absolutely. And I was like, it doesn't happen without these folks. That just does not happen. So let's give them a round of applause, please. And again, it's those things.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm. You know, I love the way you kind of identify that teamwork makes all the difference in the world and being able to identify that. And that's ultimately why, you know, we created this kind of idea of Serving Second, this podcast, this community for people who sometimes work in the background. And I think what you're doing is bringing light to, hey, this area is important. While they may not necessarily always have the spotlight, it is vitally important to any organization to have those folks that are working behind the scenes to make it work for others.
Ron Reich: you I'm going to Manhattan Thursday and Friday. I'm going to be working with an agency with the New York City ⁓ municipality government, whatever you want to call it. And the one individual who sits at the front desk, I'll get there, she'll help, everything will be set up and everything else. And I need 16 copies of something. And I know darn well, all I need to do is, know, Kiara, could you please help me? Could I get 16 copies of this? Absolutely, Ron. Thank you so much. That makes my job so much easier. Thank you. And it's that simple instead of, come on, that's your job. Just do it. Hurry up. I need these. It's like, yeah, I'll be helping you right away.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: And I think that's critical in being able to speak to people and unrecognize, hey, listen, we are all on a team. And when you value those individuals' contributions, it makes all the difference in the world for them and ultimately the organization.
Ron Reich: That's right.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: So let ask you this, and I wanna read it, make sure I'm saying this properly. For the person listening who's serving in the second chair and does it really well, what is one shift they can make to make the biggest difference for them now? Like what is one shift, I'm doing this, but I wanna kinda do it a little bit better, is there a shift that they can make to really step their game up?
Ron Reich: you know i think i think it very well maybe and asking asking other people for some feedback asking for what do you see it made that i can improve or dot dot even necessarily improve what do you see it what do you see is my strengths what do you see is my limitations how do you see it how do you think i can get better And you know, I find the question is so interesting because one of the activities I like to do to within emotional intelligence is have people share just with a colleague, what are your strengths? What are you good at? They'll talk to each other and just everything else. And I read just very, very recently, and I should have thought of this, frankly, as just like, okay, except that is the individual's perception.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mmm.
Ron Reich: That's my perception of myself. I keep, and I'm saying to people now, you need to ask other people how they view you. And you know, do you think I need to do in order to get to this level or what might be important? And just asking those questions and listening. You know what I mean? The best piece of business advice I ever got, ever. was during a performance review. was talking with my boss, Joe. He had given me my review. He had given me my increase, my bonus, and I was happy with everything. And I made a comment to him, just sort of offhand. was like, Joe, you know, I said, I really wish I could become more well-rounded. I mean, I think I'm good. And he just looked at me, and he was like, that's something I wanted to talk to you about, and it's coming up. And he said, I think you should become more well-rounded too. Start reading. Just start reading. If you can read 10 pages a day, five days a week, you will read 10, 12 books a year. That was like 25 years ago. I've read over 400 leadership books just by that comment and getting that input and listening to people and being open to.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mmm.
Ron Reich: what people have to say. know, and as I because again, you never know when you're making a difference like David Beverly says.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: I love the concept of being a lifelong learner. I think what you're hearing is 10 pages a day, and I'm an audiobook guy. And so I think it makes just being intentional about how can I continue to grow? Like, how can I always sharpen my axe so that when I do have to cut down those trees, it can do a lot easier? And I think it's so important that you're sharing that, that there's never an aha or I've arrived kind of moment. But I've got to continually going back and
Ron Reich: you That's right. That's right. you
Toussaint Williams, PhD: helping stay, as a kid, stay on my grind so that I can continue to be a sharp, well-rounded leader.
Ron Reich: That's right. Joe Paterno used to say when he was alive, if you're not getting better, you're getting worse. And at first I was like, gee, I don't quite understand that. And he followed up with, if you're not getting better, your competition probably is, which means you're getting worse. He said, you've got to assume your competition is working.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mmm. Mmm.
Ron Reich: harder than you are, reading more than you are, lifting more weights than you are, you know, whatever it might be. And if they're getting better, that means you're getting worse if you're not improving, which would then in that context, I was like, okay, now I get it. Now I get it.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yeah, I love the idea of constant improvement. And I think that's one of the things that we want to embody here on the serving second community is where we're constantly growing and having individuals like yourself where we can learn more about this and learning more about ourselves. And I think that's so important as we kind of conclude here. What is a final nugget piece of nugget you can give them in your 30 years of leadership, leadership development and coaching? What's something that you would share or leave with with a ⁓
Ron Reich: you
Toussaint Williams, PhD: individual that serves second.
Ron Reich: I would say get to know yourself extraordinarily well. Just extraordinarily well. Complete the disc instrument. Learn about what are your strengths? What are your limitations? What triggers you? Equally as important, who are you? What are you as an individual? What are your guiding values? All of these different things because the better you know yourself, the more effectively you will work with other people. And as far as I'm concerned, the better choices you will make relative to your career and your personal life. Because if you don't know yourself, that's going to be a problem. That's just going to be a problem for me at least.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Man, that is special Ron. I wish I could continue this interview for an extended period of time, but I know you have work to do. how can people connect with you and find a way where they can kind of work with you or they would like to get some leadership training from you? Where can they connect with you?
Ron Reich: Sure, probably the best way to do it is through LinkedIn. Just very simply, my name is right there. Name of the company is RLB, training and development. And I welcome the chance to just chat with anybody. And I mean that. It'll be a chat. It's not gonna be a sales call. It's not gonna be, ⁓ I can't, unless you pay me, I can't give, just reach out. I will gladly talk to anybody.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: you Hmm And Ron, I really appreciate that. And we'll make sure that we put that in the show notes. Thank you so much for stopping by the Serving Second Podcast. This is an opportunity for us to grow and develop. And thank you so much for pouring individuals who serve in this second year role. This is the Serving Second Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Toussaint Williams. Thank you so much for joining us for one additional episode. Look forward to seeing you next week. God bless.
Ron Reich: you
Ron Reich: good good first of all to us on thank you for having me i appreciate it
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Trust is fragile. how you correct. And yet somehow everyone is looking to you to hold it together. No problem, no problem. Now let me ask you this. I just want to jump into our conversation for those who haven't had an opportunity to connect with you. What got you into leadership and specifically leadership development? Welcome to the Serving Second podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Toussaint Williams. and how you help others grow even when the pressure is real and the challenges are tough.
Ron Reich: to side unit it's it's an interesting story it's a long story and i'll keep it short i started my career so many years ago in h r and it was fine i had fun it wasn't something about which i was in credibly passionate yet i certainly didn't dislike it my point simply is after a while some friends of us from some friends of mine and i had to an hr consulting firm
Toussaint Williams, PhD: and that family is the heart of serving second. Today we're going to be talking about one of the hardest parts of leadership. Helping people grow when you're leading from the middle. Today our guest is Ron Rich. I would encourage you to sign up to subscribe, to do what you need to do to stay connected to the serving second audience.
Ron Reich: We did that for a number of years and for a couple of different reasons, we decided to shut the doors. And I was going through a divorce at the time. I had nowhere to go except back in with my mom and dad, just nowhere. So I went back with them out of nowhere. I got a telephone call from a guy in Dallas, Texas. Tom Sparks was his name. Ron, have a job with Toshiba that is the exact opposite of what you are.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: a leadership and management expert with over 30 years of experience. Leave a comment below so you can let another leader know what resonated with you. He's helped leaders build strong teams. Family remember, our theme at Serving Second Podcast is the mission I serve is bigger than my title. That's right, the mission that I serve is bigger than my title. next week, I look forward to connecting with you. Take care, God bless. Have better conversations. Give honest feedback and create cultures where everybody wins.
Ron Reich: They're looking for somebody who has a lot of training, some HR. You have a lot of HR and some training. I know the people there extremely well. I can get you in front of them. Your job is to get them to flip their competencies. I went in, talked to them, they flipped them. I started off in sales training and I was doing that for a while. Barbara, Jack and Tony saw something in me.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: So if you've ever asked yourself, how do I coach people without pushing them too hard? How do I lead different personalities and do it very well? How do I keep people engaged when I'm tired too? Then family, this episode is for you. I need you to make sure you like, comment, and subscribe on this episode so other Second Chair leaders can have an opportunity to experience what you are going to experience today.
Ron Reich: that I didn't see it myself. And they were saying, you know what, we do manage some management development here and some other things like that. How interested would you be? And I was like, man, I'm all in. And one thing led to the next, and 32 years later, here I am.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: What an awesome experience. And thank God for those individuals that kind of saw that in you. What would, when you had that experience, where did you kind of see, oh, this is a possible opportunity, or is this just something you just wanted to try out?
Ron Reich: You know, one thing to son, and this is the, it's a classic phrase, and I mean it with every fiber I have. One of the most important parts of my career and one of the most important parts of my being is just, is the ability to make a difference. I want to make a difference. And when I started to get into the training and especially the leadership development training, realizing, wow, this is impacting lives. This is just changing lives. And I think that's one of the biggest reasons I love it so much, because I am able to make a difference. And that's a key part, like I said, of who I am as an individual.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Let's explore that a little bit more as you're talking about making a difference. For the folks we're talking about here in serving second, most of them, if not all of us, are individuals who serve as assistants or vice or in some second chair role. How could they make a difference in that role versus most people identify or some folks look at making a difference as the top seat? How would they be able to do that?
Ron Reich: You know what, I'm going to answer that by bringing up an old colleague of mine. Dave, I've worked with Dave Beverly for quite a few years. He used to say all the time, you never know when you're making a difference in someone's life, ever. And that makes so much sense to me. And, you know, I've been in that second chair many, many times. And again, it doesn't make a It does make a difference still and all. My point, it's just, hey, whatever you need to do to help the person who was either running the show or even when I would go on and do my parts, making a difference like that is just so critical, just so critical. And for me, I've been very blessed throughout the years, for the most part, not everybody. A lot of people in that first chair, if you will, didn't have the ego relative to, I'm running this, I'm in charge, you're here to help me, and you serve me. And that kind of thing makes it difficult for me. I'll still do it, yes. I'm a heck of a lot more passionate and just a heck of a lot more, I don't know what word I'm looking for, I guess willing. when I'm empowered to do my thing.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yeah. So when you were in those secondary roles, were there any frustrations that you kind of felt like, man, this was a little bit more of a challenge and how did you navigate that?
Ron Reich: You know, part of it is to realizing what do I control and what don't I control. And for me, Toussaint, I am such a believer in, one of my mantras has been for a long, long time now, stay out of the results business. And what I mean by that, I try to do everything possible within my control to contribute to a situation to help to ⁓ solve a problem, prevent a problem, whatever it might be. And if I don't have control over it, I need to let that go. I mean, I just need to let that go. When I left Toshiba, okay, and I joined a competitor, I won't say who, because it wasn't a good experience and I don't like to bash other organizations. I got there and first of all, I did not know. how high the bar was set at Toshiba. I had no clue how unbelievably talented those people were. I joined this competitor, the bar at Toshiba is here, the bar at the other organization is way down here. And I was like, folks, look, here are some things we can do to get better. We can implement this, can do this, a lot of different things. ⁓ no, no, no, no, no, we can't do that, we can't do that. Absolutely not. No, we can't do that. And, you know, I was in the second chair, if you will, because I wasn't running the department. I kept talking to my boss and he's like, No, we can't do that. I did everything I could within my, within my sphere of control, if you will. And the people I was working with, and I'm proud of this, were all saying to me, Wow, this is great. This is great. We should really be making these changes. And know, my boss, no, no, we can't do that. We can't do that. And finally, I was like, all right, nothing's going to change here. I'm done. I'm leaving. And that's what I ended up doing. Because if I can't control it and I've done everything within my power, then I have to give up. I give up my right to complain about it. Because then I'm just living in the problem, not the solution.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: I really like how you said that. First of all, I can control what I can control. And then living in the problem, not the solution, is crazy because you said that. It's almost echoed when my mom, my parents used to tell me when I was much younger, you're either part of the problem or you're part of the solution. And I just think that's so key when it comes to leadership. I want to just kind of push you a little bit further when you're talking about leaders and specifically when it comes to leadership development. I know that's one of the passions that you have.
Ron Reich: you Exactly. Yeah, yeah. you
Toussaint Williams, PhD: kind of share with us what was that thing that kind of got you into leadership development and what are the things that really energizes you when it comes to developing leaders.
Ron Reich: I seeing the lights go on for people. mean, that is just so much fun for me. I mean, I I'm by myself. I'm a one man show. And given that I don't have a tremendous amount of bandwidth, I work with mostly smaller midsize firms. And I'll be working with the senior leaders and just other people like that. And a lot of times these smaller organizations have had very little exposure to any real training and development and those kinds of things. And to see them, like, ⁓ my goodness, this is amazing. ⁓ my goodness, how could we not have been doing these things? First of all, that energizes me because again, I circle back. It makes a difference. It makes a difference to them. It's gonna make a difference to the people with whom they work and the organization. overall. you know, one of the nice things too, I'm going to maybe a little bit off topic here, whatever, just relative to making a difference though, one of the nicest compliments I got was years ago, second chair in a training session, we had finished up, I was with Santa Fe Aventas, the big pharma. And one of the participants came up to me, shook my hand, Ron, thank you so much. That was just a great session. I got so much out of it. I was like, ⁓ you know, good, you're welcome. He leaned into me and said quietly, goes, it was something else too. And I thought I knew where he was going with it. And I was like, what? He leaned in he goes, Ron, that was two days of fabulous marriage counseling. And that's what I thought he was going to say. And to start again, my point is, it makes a difference for everybody. It's not just, ⁓ for me as a professional, this is helpful. And the organization, it encompasses everything in someone's life. that, again, how does it get better than that for me?
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Man, so what I'm hearing is you said that the lessons you got were not just for, this is business related, I can put it in this box, in this sphere, but as you're developing, you wanna develop in a sense the whole person so that when they go home, they can benefit when they're dealing with their kids or all other places. And I like that because for leaders, I don't want the lessons that they're learning just to be in a specific, this is for your job and your job only.
Ron Reich: ⁓ Exactly. That's it. That's exactly it. Right, I'll put it away now because I'm going home or whatever. No, no, not at all. I mean, all of that, the need for recognition, delivering behaviorally based feedback, listening effectively, getting to know yourself very, very well and helping your family, helping the kids to understand those things. Absolutely.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yeah Now I want to speak to specifically when you're dealing with individuals, you're kind of dealing with coaching. And if we're talking to one of the individuals here serving second there to listen to this podcast, they may have to deal with some training for individuals that are on their team. How do they do that without sounding harsh or critical or overbearing when it comes to, let's say, coaching up their team? How do they do that without it being ⁓ looking down upon somebody else on their squad?
Ron Reich: You know, I think one of the biggest things here is I'm a huge believer in Stephen Covey's work, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Habit two, begin with the end in mind. And one of the things for me that I always say to people and always recommend to people, if I'm going to be coaching you or someone has said, know, we'd like you to coach Tassant. Tassant, I'm here. My goal here is to make you better. My goal is to help you to develop. It's not, it's not, Toussaint, you're bad. You need fixing, Toussaint. Not at all. And I think that needs to be one of the biggest approaches. You know, there's a client with whom I'll be working in Long Island in May. And I think that's one of the concerns that the senior leaders have, because they've done very, very little training over the years. And they're thinking, I We're afraid, we're afraid that the people coming are gonna view this as they're being punished. And it's like, no, you're not being punished, we're investing in you. Look at the money we're spending here and we're doing it to make you better so the employees can be better and so that we can all be better. And that to me is one of the, that's how I like to frame things.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm-hmm. of hey listen when I go in instead of trying to I'm deal with some of your weaknesses how can we all grow together and once we deal with this or handle this that makes all the difference in the world it is crazy you know as you're talking go ahead
Ron Reich: Exactly. Well, you know what, if you don't mind, Tasad, because again, you're reminding me of something that I think is critical here, and that is, especially in these smaller mid-size organizations, the senior leaders need to go through everything as well. They need to be a part of it. Instead of, ⁓ yes, they need the training. ⁓ I'm too busy, or my team is too busy for this.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mmm.
Ron Reich: What message is that? And I said, so often I will hear from people. again, it's like, great training. ⁓ my goodness, this has been fabulous. Or the coaching, they need it. They need ⁓ it. And I get that. ⁓
Toussaint Williams, PhD: So can you just real quick before we shift gears, can you speak to that mindset of the importance of especially in these smaller groups, why would that be important for that leader to go through it as well with them, with the rest of the team?
Ron Reich: Number one, consistency. Number two, nothing is beneath me. Nothing is beneath me. I need this training. We all need this. We are all in this together. And together is how we are going to do this. otherwise, you have the weakness or the... the inconsistency and it makes no sense and people know that. mean people are just are not stupid or it's like she didn't go through that. They didn't go through it. They want us to. What sense does that make? Guys, I get it. I know. I know.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: So for that leader who's identifying, hey, I wanna bring some training or I wanna bring Ron in, the importance is making sure everybody recognizes we're on this growth path together. We're all moving in the same direction. I love that concept.
Ron Reich: BOOM! And it's, the key thing you just said, Tucson, as far as I'm concerned, we, we are all moving in this direction and we're all committed to it. You know, and I mean, it's, it's, it's, so interesting because I have a client in Indianapolis. They are a, they're a heavy duty towing company slash transport company and they are all in.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yeah.
Ron Reich: They are all in. Jeff, the owner, and the other senior leaders, they're small too. They're about 100, for argument's sake, about 100 person ⁓ company. They've gone through it. They've walked the walk. They've talked the talk. And you can see it from the other employees where it's like, yep, they're buying into it compared to another organization, a food company with whom I worked.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm-hmm.
Ron Reich: here in New Jersey, took them through some similar stuff and the senior leaders are just fading out of it, fading out of it, fading out of it and it's not going to make a difference and I've told them that. like guys, you may as well stop because you're throwing money away. It just makes no sense to me and again it's sad and people don't understand. We're too busy, we're too busy, we have too much going on. like, yeah, you have too much going on because there's too much inconsistency with everything else. Nobody knows what anybody's doing and all that.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: I really appreciate just that level of congruency that needs to happen through the organization, particularly as these are growing, you want to make sure everybody's on the same page, focusing on that we. Now, one of the things I also looked at, I really appreciated from your journey is being able to deal with different personalities.
Ron Reich: BOOM!
Toussaint Williams, PhD: What does that look like and what does an individual need to do if I'm in that trucking company and I want to be able to kind of grow? But my team is a lot of different groups and not everybody thinks the same way. How do you navigate that from the personality side?
Ron Reich: you I am, I have been, and I always will be a big, big believer in personality assessments, particularly the disc instrument, if you know it, Toussaint. And yeah, I can see you nodding. And for me, it's just, I said earlier, a little bit, I alluded to it. The disc instrument for me allows people to get to know themselves on a much deeper level.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yes, sir.
Ron Reich: It is steeped in research, very accurate, helps you to get to know yourself, like I said, on a much deeper level. Additionally, it's so easy to, it's so helpful because it allows you to understand what other people's personalities are, what their priorities are, and how they tend to translate situations. And that for me is one of the biggest ways to be able to navigate different types of personalities and allowing leaders to understand, wow, we need diversity on this team. We need people who are relationship oriented. We need people who are task oriented. I need people who are energetic and rah rah. We need people who are the second chairs, behind the scenes. doing the grunt work, doing the research, all of these different things come together. What's that called? To me it's called success.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yes, I love that. And I've actually been dis-certified and I'm a high S, you know, and most people who serve second are in that, that idea. And so it's so interesting, you know, being able to, a friend of mine who does the disc assessment, they call it the airplane side. so we, S's are almost like the ground screw. They're a little bit everywhere. They're able to kind of navigate.
Ron Reich: Okay, I'm not surprised. I am too. ⁓ you
Toussaint Williams, PhD: The pilots are high D and I are like the flight attendants. And that's just kind of, love the journey and how you do that. But when you show up, how do you have administered the test and then get everybody to kind of see where they are? If we were in a workshop real quick with Ron, what would that day look like?
Ron Reich: Yeah. Yeah. For me, Toussaint, I always tell people, if you're going to do the disc right, I need at least three hours. At least three hours to do it. And for me, the setup is, number one, it's fun. And that's important so that if people haven't been through it before, it's not like, it's a personality test. No, it's an assessment. And I mean, that's one of the things that I also emphasize to people is that folks listen.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Got it.
Ron Reich: This is an assessment, no more, no less. It's also the best instrument on the market, in my opinion. And I outline for them the reasons for that. And I just let them know, is like, hey, you guys, this is gonna be a lot of fun. It's interactive. What I do with them, I have them complete it. I have them find out about themselves first. How accurate is this for you folks? And everybody in the room. 99 % of the time is nodding their heads where it's like, whoa, this is like scary accurate. So now they know about themselves. And then we get into a big activity where they learn about the other styles is that all four styles work together. They answer some questions about themselves. And then we talk about how can the high Ds work with the I's. How can the Ds work with the Cs? How can the Cs work with and so forth? The phrase that I always use, and it's always fun, very simply, you always want to deliver your message, always. The best way to do that is by speaking their language. And their language for the D is results. Their language for the I, high energy, optimism, being people-oriented. For the studies,
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm-hmm.
Ron Reich: They like you to be calmer. They prefer smaller groups to work with. The Cs, give them data. Give them time to plan. Give them time to think. And again, when you do that, you're going to work effectively together.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: You know, it's so interesting you said that because as you were talking, I just heard my wife talking about, hey, I need to have a plan for this event that we're doing and where we're going. She's high C, of course. And just, you're absolutely, I can give all the energy in the world. I can give all the direction, but until she has a plan, until she understands where we're going, it's almost like I'm not even doing anything. And so you're absolutely correct. You're not only for business, but also in marriage as well, but just understanding those personalities.
Ron Reich: Yeah, exactly, All right. There it is. That's exactly it. I mean, that's exactly it. My wife is a very, very high C. And she's the most organized person I've ever known in my life. Sometimes to a point where it appears to be too much. And that's another key thing appears to be because I'll tell you what, we love to travel and she'll start packing.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm-hmm.
Ron Reich: a month in advance and just putting things out, getting things ready. sometimes I'll just shake my head every single time I need something when we're overseas or wherever. Lori, where's the, ⁓ it's right here. And it's like, man, you're right.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yeah. You are absolutely, I think we'd be married to cousins because it seems like my wife has the same thing. I would like, does, in my mind, don't, why do even need that? But as soon as we get over there, some random charcoal pill or some type of medicine that's, look under the counter. I mean, under the bag, under the, that's exactly it. So, know, shout out to the C's. We need you, we love you guys. We definitely, yes, especially we need it. You know, the.
Ron Reich: that's exactly right That's right, we need you, we love you. Well, and just so you know what though, let's stop just for a second if you don't mind. Just because, you know, the shout out for the season. Yeah, absolutely. The other thing that's so important here though for me are the shout outs that need to go to the second chairs, the support staff, and things like that. And I always try to do that.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm-hmm.
Ron Reich: because the recognition for the people behind the scenes is so important. And I say this to people all the time, is that I was so fortunate and so blessed. was a keynote speaker for an organization. I was out in Phoenix a couple of years ago. ⁓ Actually, I took them through the desk and we were almost finished. And I just said, said, know what, everybody, before we completely wrap up here, I've got to take a minute.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm.
Ron Reich: And I've got to thank everybody who helped with the setup, who got the instruments out, everything else. Guys, without the behind the scenes work, this does not come off seamlessly. Because it came off seamlessly. And I was looking at the audit, does it come off seamlessly? And they were like, yes, absolutely. And I was like, it doesn't happen without these folks. That just does not happen. So let's give them a round of applause, please. And again, it's those things.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mm. You know, I love the way you kind of identify that teamwork makes all the difference in the world and being able to identify that. And that's ultimately why, you know, we created this kind of idea of Serving Second, this podcast, this community for people who sometimes work in the background. And I think what you're doing is bringing light to, hey, this area is important. While they may not necessarily always have the spotlight, it is vitally important to any organization to have those folks that are working behind the scenes to make it work for others.
Ron Reich: you I'm going to Manhattan Thursday and Friday. I'm going to be working with an agency with the New York City ⁓ municipality government, whatever you want to call it. And the one individual who sits at the front desk, I'll get there, she'll help, everything will be set up and everything else. And I need 16 copies of something. And I know darn well, all I need to do is, know, Kiara, could you please help me? Could I get 16 copies of this? Absolutely, Ron. Thank you so much. That makes my job so much easier. Thank you. And it's that simple instead of, come on, that's your job. Just do it. Hurry up. I need these. It's like, yeah, I'll be helping you right away.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: And I think that's critical in being able to speak to people and unrecognize, hey, listen, we are all on a team. And when you value those individuals' contributions, it makes all the difference in the world for them and ultimately the organization.
Ron Reich: That's right.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: So let ask you this, and I wanna read it, make sure I'm saying this properly. For the person listening who's serving in the second chair and does it really well, what is one shift they can make to make the biggest difference for them now? Like what is one shift, I'm doing this, but I wanna kinda do it a little bit better, is there a shift that they can make to really step their game up?
Ron Reich: you know i think i think it very well maybe and asking asking other people for some feedback asking for what do you see it made that i can improve or dot dot even necessarily improve what do you see it what do you see is my strengths what do you see is my limitations how do you see it how do you think i can get better And you know, I find the question is so interesting because one of the activities I like to do to within emotional intelligence is have people share just with a colleague, what are your strengths? What are you good at? They'll talk to each other and just everything else. And I read just very, very recently, and I should have thought of this, frankly, as just like, okay, except that is the individual's perception.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mmm.
Ron Reich: That's my perception of myself. I keep, and I'm saying to people now, you need to ask other people how they view you. And you know, do you think I need to do in order to get to this level or what might be important? And just asking those questions and listening. You know what I mean? The best piece of business advice I ever got, ever. was during a performance review. was talking with my boss, Joe. He had given me my review. He had given me my increase, my bonus, and I was happy with everything. And I made a comment to him, just sort of offhand. was like, Joe, you know, I said, I really wish I could become more well-rounded. I mean, I think I'm good. And he just looked at me, and he was like, that's something I wanted to talk to you about, and it's coming up. And he said, I think you should become more well-rounded too. Start reading. Just start reading. If you can read 10 pages a day, five days a week, you will read 10, 12 books a year. That was like 25 years ago. I've read over 400 leadership books just by that comment and getting that input and listening to people and being open to.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mmm.
Ron Reich: what people have to say. know, and as I because again, you never know when you're making a difference like David Beverly says.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: I love the concept of being a lifelong learner. I think what you're hearing is 10 pages a day, and I'm an audiobook guy. And so I think it makes just being intentional about how can I continue to grow? Like, how can I always sharpen my axe so that when I do have to cut down those trees, it can do a lot easier? And I think it's so important that you're sharing that, that there's never an aha or I've arrived kind of moment. But I've got to continually going back and
Ron Reich: you That's right. That's right. you
Toussaint Williams, PhD: helping stay, as a kid, stay on my grind so that I can continue to be a sharp, well-rounded leader.
Ron Reich: That's right. Joe Paterno used to say when he was alive, if you're not getting better, you're getting worse. And at first I was like, gee, I don't quite understand that. And he followed up with, if you're not getting better, your competition probably is, which means you're getting worse. He said, you've got to assume your competition is working.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Mmm. Mmm.
Ron Reich: harder than you are, reading more than you are, lifting more weights than you are, you know, whatever it might be. And if they're getting better, that means you're getting worse if you're not improving, which would then in that context, I was like, okay, now I get it. Now I get it.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Yeah, I love the idea of constant improvement. And I think that's one of the things that we want to embody here on the serving second community is where we're constantly growing and having individuals like yourself where we can learn more about this and learning more about ourselves. And I think that's so important as we kind of conclude here. What is a final nugget piece of nugget you can give them in your 30 years of leadership, leadership development and coaching? What's something that you would share or leave with with a ⁓
Ron Reich: you
Toussaint Williams, PhD: individual that serves second.
Ron Reich: I would say get to know yourself extraordinarily well. Just extraordinarily well. Complete the disc instrument. Learn about what are your strengths? What are your limitations? What triggers you? Equally as important, who are you? What are you as an individual? What are your guiding values? All of these different things because the better you know yourself, the more effectively you will work with other people. And as far as I'm concerned, the better choices you will make relative to your career and your personal life. Because if you don't know yourself, that's going to be a problem. That's just going to be a problem for me at least.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: Man, that is special Ron. I wish I could continue this interview for an extended period of time, but I know you have work to do. how can people connect with you and find a way where they can kind of work with you or they would like to get some leadership training from you? Where can they connect with you?
Ron Reich: Sure, probably the best way to do it is through LinkedIn. Just very simply, my name is right there. Name of the company is RLB, training and development. And I welcome the chance to just chat with anybody. And I mean that. It'll be a chat. It's not gonna be a sales call. It's not gonna be, ⁓ I can't, unless you pay me, I can't give, just reach out. I will gladly talk to anybody.
Toussaint Williams, PhD: you Hmm And Ron, I really appreciate that. And we'll make sure that we put that in the show notes. Thank you so much for stopping by the Serving Second Podcast. This is an opportunity for us to grow and develop. And thank you so much for pouring individuals who serve in this second year role. This is the Serving Second Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Toussaint Williams. Thank you so much for joining us for one additional episode. Look forward to seeing you next week. God bless.
Ron Reich: you
