00:00:00:00 - 00:00:28:04
Helen Fitzhugh
Welcome to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing podcast. This podcast is part of a toolkit of free, evidence-informed workplace wellbeing resources provided by the Workplace Wellbeing Research team at the University of East Anglia in the UK. You can find the resources on www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org
00:00:28:06 - 00:00:44:17
Helen Fitzhugh
Welcome to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing podcast. My name is Dr Helen Fitzhugh from the University of East Anglia, and I'm delighted to be here today with Michael Whitmore, research leader in health, work and wellbeing at RAND Europe, a not-for-profit research organization. Welcome, Michael.
00:00:44:19 - 00:00:47:24
Michael Whitmore
Thank you very much, Helen. Great to be speaking with you.
00:00:48:01 - 00:01:00:11
Helen Fitzhugh
I obviously have worked with you quite a bit in the past, but I'd love it if you could introduce yourself to our listener. Tell us a little bit about your career journey and your professional interest in workplace wellbeing.
00:01:00:13 - 00:01:22:06
Michael Whitmore
Yeah. Great. Helen. Yes, thanks. So I had a previous professional background in public health and social work and I think when I first developed the interest in health, work and wellbeing, it probably goes back to when I was setting up information, advice and guidance centres at the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. So that's going back a long way now. But that was bringing young people, into education, employment and training.
00:01:22:12 - 00:01:53:20
Michael Whitmore
But still using a case-managed approach to it. It was new and novel at the time. And that really looked at a biopsychosocial approach to inclusion in the workplace, in education and so on. That kind of sowed the seeds, really, I think. And then once I'd completed my executive MBA, I went through to look at organizational culture and also cultural due diligence in mergers and acquisitions.
00:01:53:21 - 00:02:24:07
Michael Whitmore
So from that I moved into, health management consultancy. And as my role there, I was programme director for the delivery of an 11 million pound proof of concept for fit for work services. So with working with the joint from the first joint Health Work and Wellbeing unit between the Department of Health and Department of Work and Pensions, and it was one of the government's responses to Dame Carol Black's 2008 Working for Healthy Tomorrow paper.
00:02:24:10 - 00:02:58:19
Michael Whitmore
We definitely looked at the reduction of sickness absence and we found, though, that we couldn't, easily separate that from presenteeism. And as the proof of concept evaluation continued, there was a growing demand by those delivering the services for us, as a central team, to look at how presenteeism interacted with absenteeism. And presenteeism is is where, somebody might be at work but not working optimally for, for whatever reason, that might be.
00:02:58:19 - 00:03:29:19
Michael Whitmore
So there's quite an interesting there. So that really pulled me into the world of health, work and wellbeing. Having successfully led that to the completion, then I also then moved into a, a large global wellbeing organization called Optum, which is part of UnitedHealth Group, and I became director for international wellbeing there. And so I took field trips across to the USA and other other countries to look at how they were already delivering their corporate wellness and employee assistance programmes and so on.
00:03:29:19 - 00:03:57:02
Michael Whitmore
And looking at how we could reconceive a model that applied to the UK, and also with our Australian colleagues as well, got quite involved in, reviewing occupational health markets both in the UK and in Australia as well. So quite a, quite varie and very interesting. Fast forward a little bit. I've been at Rand Europe for eight years now.
00:03:57:02 - 00:04:12:08
Michael Whitmore
They originally asked me to come in to oversee my, work with Vitality Health on Britain's Healthiest Workplace. And, people can see that still on our website, as well as vitality health, website as well. So I won't go into that in too much detail. But nevertheless.
00:04:12:08 - 00:04:15:07
Helen Fitzhugh
And the Evolve website Michael, I’m just saying.
00:04:16:21 - 00:04:22:18
Helen Fitzhugh
Because we've got the business case calculator on the Evolve website, so I couldn't let it go past without saying that as well.
00:04:22:20 - 00:04:42:03
Michael Whitmore
Well I shouldn't… and I and you mentioned earlier that we've done a lot of work together, and it's actually on some of the subject matter from that project. So we both know quite a lot around the data from the inside out, I suspect. So, yeah. So it's brought us together on on the Evolve work, ao I'm glad you pulled me up on that Helen.
00:04:42:05 - 00:05:03:24
Michael Whitmore
And so originally asked to oversee that, and, and I did so. My research areas with RAND Europe quickly expanded more around that. And it's led to some really interesting stuff. So, we were looking at some of the emerging topics coming through in the workplace wellbeing and whether the vendor space, is really evidence based.
00:05:04:03 - 00:05:35:21
Michael Whitmore
So whether some of the offerings were actually evidence based or not, and also helping to support those trying to consider that, you know, what to look for in an evidence based approach. That's, that's sort of whole breadth and span of the research that we've done has led me into looking at musculoskeletal issues, mental health issues, psychosocial issues, looking at safety in the workplace, sometimes more, sometimes looking at, wellbeing in the workplace, looking again with the data, with colleagues from UEA
00:05:35:22 - 00:05:50:02
Michael Whitmore
for instance around financial wellbeing. So, it's cut across the whole, arena of health, work and wellbeing in one area or the other. So very interesting eight years.
00:05:50:04 - 00:06:09:19
Helen Fitzhugh
And actually, I mean, you're saying all of this and I'm thinking, how are we going to fit it into half an hour of podcast? Because obviously you've done so many studies relating to wellbeing at work, and you've got both a kind of breadth but also a depth of experience. So what have you been doing lately that we're going to be talking about today?
00:06:09:21 - 00:06:30:06
Michael Whitmore
But there's a few things we're doing. And so in general, I think it's interesting to say that we've been working with Lloyd's Register Foundation in their efforts to establish a global safety evidence centre, so we can do some background research for them in that. And so what evidence do practitioners need in relation to safety and health at work?
00:06:30:08 - 00:06:57:18
Michael Whitmore
We've also been delivering and I've been leading work for EU OSHA on the indirect impact of climate change. That's an ongoing programme at the moment. But we're looking at the future, what, climate change might mean and how that, can affect working age populations. So that's a very interesting piece of work. We've recently published a number of years worth of work looking at evaluation of body worn cameras rolling out across the ambulance trusts for NHS.
00:06:57:21 - 00:07:49:03
Michael Whitmore
So that again’s very interesting. But what I’ll talk to you about now, before I digress into any of those points, is and I think it's timely and I think very helpful to anchor this back in to what's going on for HR directors and wellbeing leads actually now in this moment for wellbeing and we set up and I ran a group near the end of last year of wellbeing, leads and HR directors to discuss this, to discuss why sickness absence is rising, why productivity seemingly is diminishing, and what are the challenges in the wellbeing area, that they still see even though we're so far on in some respects with the research
00:07:49:05 - 00:07:54:20
Michael Whitmore
that we've been, all contributing to over the last decades.
00:07:54:22 - 00:08:04:18
Helen Fitzhugh
So a kind of state of the topic, discussion, exploration, trying to find out what's happening in organizations and what HR directors think is coming next.
00:08:04:20 - 00:08:28:18
Michael Whitmore
Yeah. So if we're generating all this evidence and, and great stuff, it all is too, you know, how is it the dial isn't moving and so what are the real life issues for HR directors and wellbeing leads? You know, how is life and the lived experience of trying to oversee wellbeing? You know what's that all about?
00:08:28:20 - 00:08:51:15
Helen Fitzhugh
And I think that's a really important topic to bring to the podcast, because what we always try and do here is say, you know, are there ways in which robust evidence can be used to influence practice to make things better? Essentially. So if you're saying you've been learning about the things that might be getting in the way of that, the things we might need to overcome, it's really helpful to have you here talking about examples.
00:08:51:15 - 00:08:56:13
Helen Fitzhugh
So could you could you talk me through what you found out on this, focus groups?
00:08:56:15 - 00:09:35:09
Michael Whitmore
Yeah. And I think it splits into two areas. Really. It's is this looking at what areas are still the issues being grappled with. And then also what are the sort of new generation of, topics and concerns and opportunities that are coming up. I think what was interesting from that group was how some of the common themes, that I would have still been looking at 15 or 20 years ago, are still in many ways present now.
00:09:35:11 - 00:10:16:24
Michael Whitmore
For instance, there was still discussion around the fact that HR professionals are very busy. You know, they get caught in all sorts of directions to discern which approaches are sufficiently evidence based in a very noisy and competitive wellness and wellbeing market is still a high challenge. I think that's an overriding point. So building a bespoke wellbeing program, you know, actually is locking in, being personalized to the organization itself and having the space and the capacity to do that, is still a challenge.
00:10:16:24 - 00:10:36:11
Michael Whitmore
It's it's quite complicated and time consuming task. And so, so being able to do that is still presenting itself as quite a challenge. So in that sense, doesn’t matter how much evidence you've got out there if you haven't got the, the, the time to be able to bring it together into ways that are meaningful for you in your own work.
00:10:36:16 - 00:11:03:04
Michael Whitmore
And so also that translates into a concern that small and medium sized enterprises - And this is something I've always spoken about in, in, in workplace wellbeing where, you know - they've got even less capacity to deploy wellbeing approaches. And you still have, you know, anecdotal, stories as well around small and medium sized enterprises have only got the capacity to deal with a wellbeing issue when it's there present and current.
00:11:03:06 - 00:11:31:07
Michael Whitmore
rather than looking at any preventative way of, of going about it, you know, so it only becomes an issue when it's at the top of somebody's priority list and it's, and it won't go away. So, so that's, that's always a tricky one. I don't think, we've we found the best way of supporting, those smaller sized organizations, and yet they, they do, obviously account for more
00:11:31:08 - 00:12:04:13
Michael Whitmore
than I think over half of the employment of staff in the UK. I think there remains uncertainty also that vendors, you know, could be selling wellbeing solutions and programmes that are not actually that well evidenced. Yeah. But how do people discern it? So for those feeling, you know, the government support and guidance is required if you don't get the support and the levers and the right type of understanding from government, then there's only so far that organizations can go with the agenda.
00:12:04:15 - 00:12:41:12
Michael Whitmore
And so that is the main points coming out of the the, the, regular issues that we've seen across the years and decades around this, you know, so I think this sort of acts as a great reminder that it's still, you know, in some ways making sure we get the basics correct. Yeah, yeah. And for instance why Evolve and so on is is so important in making sure we've got, you know, a condensed, easy to understand set of evidence that applies to practitioners in the workplace.
00:12:41:14 - 00:13:03:13
Helen Fitzhugh
And I think it is one of the things that, people who've who listened to this who have also been to one of our workshops, you know, they they might remember, me saying things like, you know, this working on workplace wellbeing is, unfortunately never finished, you know, but that's also a good thing, if you see what I mean, because otherwise you might think, oh, I'm, I'm not, I'm not done.
00:13:03:13 - 00:13:26:19
Helen Fitzhugh
You know, I haven't, I haven't ticked all the boxes or got us to a point where we are perfect and it's like, you're never going to be perfect. The evidence says people who are good in this space are always working on it, always considering what's coming next. And, you know, doing that kind of understanding of of learning and being in dialogue, being the key processes that keep this up and floating along, if you see what I mean.
00:13:26:19 - 00:13:59:18
Michael Whitmore
I think also that that sense of being able to move with the times, to pick up on the challenges, you've only got to look at how things have changed so vastly over the last five years. Yeah. To understand that wellbeing will never stand still. Yeah, there's some ways that you need to view wellbeing to understand how to apply it, but you're never applying it to the human condition the same year on year because the human condition changes as well as everything around us.
00:13:59:20 - 00:14:23:03
Michael Whitmore
And so I think that's one of the sort of key takeaways. And I think it's really astute to bring it out Helen of you, you know, around around that aspect. So if I go into some of those current challenges that came from the group, I think that will help to highlight it actually. So I think mental health is still ranking as a key wellbeing issue.
00:14:23:05 - 00:14:53:13
Michael Whitmore
And that's we've seen that, you know, the focus on that increase over the years, I think what was also noted, and this is great to have seen, I think in the early days, I was still pioneering what the definition of wellbeing was. But it is, you know, so, so having to explain to people what the difference between wellness and wellbeing was, one being more physical and one being more, a balance between physical, mental and psychosocial.
00:14:53:17 - 00:15:22:05
Michael Whitmore
And so it's good now that wellbeing is in common parlance across most organizations. And that was certainly felt in the group as well, that it is a central concern for many more organizations than it used to be. So also building requirements for managing neurodiversity in the workplace. So, that is something that's been increasing in attention over the last few years and I know is part of the wellbeing sector’s focus.
00:15:22:05 - 00:15:54:18
Michael Whitmore
There’s also technology changes having great impact in the workplace. Yeah. Particular introduction of digitization smart apps. But also AI it is not just the AI and technology itself, it's the way it's introduced and the changes around that. So that can create many different emotions and it can be done well or it can not be done well.
00:15:54:20 - 00:16:41:12
Michael Whitmore
And so, it can, really create a big difference in the workplace. So for instance, most of us that could work from home were able to work from home over the pandemic, for instance, that that wouldn't have happened ten years previous, I would suspect. And so the technology that that provides is both an important opportunity to maintain productivity, but also a challenge, in terms of, social isolation, managing the hybrid workforce and this balance that we see in the media all the time with CEO differences of opinions around how many days or hours should somebody work now in the office, and how should that be balanced with working from home and how the
00:16:41:12 - 00:16:59:23
Michael Whitmore
changes of opinions have happened with that? And that's before you get onto cohorts of staff that are not able to work from home and need to work, for instance, in manufacturing plants and so on. So the type of apparatus and technology that they use is changing on a daily basis. That can create all sorts of stress as well.
00:17:00:00 - 00:17:31:17
Michael Whitmore
So I've dwelt on that quite a lot. But I think it's an important sort of way, way of sort of explaining how these changes are all ways around us and we can't take it for granted. And, and the virtual management of employees and the and the virtual off setting and outsourcing of health, wealth and wellbeing, to to the invisibility of employee lives is is something that organizations may or may not be benefiting from at the expense of, of, employees, either wittingly or unwittingly, on behalf of both organizations and staff.
00:17:31:17 - 00:17:56:04
Michael Whitmore
So so that's something I think key. So also, I think, climate change mentioned that, one of the other projects I was talking about, but climate change, that's, that's, you know, having, all sorts of impacts on health and wellbeing and will continue to do so. And that can be direct. So it can be as simple as heat exposure.
00:17:56:06 - 00:18:29:13
Michael Whitmore
It can be as simple as vector borne diseases. So, how is that going to change, especially as mosquitoes migrate all sorts of different, issues, which then couple in with vaccine hesitancy and so on. So what are the risks involved? How does, changes in the workplace actually have an impact on, for instance, skills that people need to learn and develop as, regulations and guidelines about how to keep safe and well in the workplace change.
00:18:29:13 - 00:18:59:06
Michael Whitmore
How is the impact on long term condition manifestation going to occur as climate changes affect working and so on? I think what I'm building up to with all of this is also what the group was saying is that's personalization in the workplace. And I think that's one of the key fundamentals is, is changing. And I think you mentioned this as well around there's no one size fits all blanket approach to wellbeing.
00:18:59:08 - 00:19:23:01
Michael Whitmore
Now, I know both ourselves at RAND and yourselves at UEA have been saying this for a long time, you know, and we, we're both been talking about flexible working in both in all of our different ways and research projects around what a good job looks like, job design and so on. But actually, what sort of flexible working for one doesn't work for another.
00:19:23:03 - 00:19:52:03
Michael Whitmore
And, actually the worst thing you can do is enforce a blanket approach to, a whole cohort of staff and not allow flexibility. So if you're inflexible to applying flexible working, then that's going to incur as many difficulties around wellbeing as being inflexible in the first place. And so I think that's one of the things that was coming out of the group.
00:19:52:05 - 00:20:29:00
Michael Whitmore
I think the group also felt in essence, there was a good amount of evidence. But there was consensus it was difficult to make sense of and apply it to the organization specifically. Yeah. Unless you've got that time and the organization had brought in those key sets. And I think one final thing, which is a slight aside in some ways, but most direct in the others, is that there’s a change in the expectations of staff on what the organization, should provide for them.
00:20:29:02 - 00:20:58:16
Michael Whitmore
Again, in the earlier days, then there was a big debate around whether organizations would be seen to be meddling in the lives of employees around supporting lifestyle behaviour changes, which we all know can have a lot a great impact on, on, on the mortality and wellbeing of staff as well as productivity. So there was well, you know, there was a lot of debate and organizations pushing back and saying, no, we can't be seen and we won't interfere with with staff.
00:20:58:18 - 00:21:21:11
Michael Whitmore
You know, what they do outside of work is up to them. Whereas now there's an expectation, I think, from staff that there will be these wellbeing benefits provided for them. And I think we've seen that in new generations as well. And it's also pushed back to the overtime culture. And what, new generations will put up with about the expectations from organizations.
00:21:21:13 - 00:22:01:00
Michael Whitmore
And actually, I think as a result of that, Helen, I think you've probably seen it too. There's, there's much more interest academically as well as organizationally around wellbeing. So as much as now many organizations have leads for wellbeing or have appendaged wellbeing into their health and safety, or HR roles, then I think also academically, what I'm seeing is an awful lot more of interest and the younger generations that come into RAND Europe now, you know, actively have an interest in workplace wellbeing, understand it and want to be part of that journey in in applying their interests and skills to it where it is.
00:22:01:01 - 00:22:05:22
Michael Whitmore
I think in some ways in the past it was seen as more of a fringe activity.
00:22:05:24 - 00:22:34:18
Helen Fitzhugh
So it's bringing that into the mainstream. And some people said that, you know, the pandemic accelerated all of these considerations quite a bit. You know, if the pandemic hadn't happened, it's things that might have taken ten years to happen, happened in 2 or 3 months. Yeah. Which is interesting, isn't it? And, I wonder if there's also that sense of now a kind of a settling and a reorganizing after that period of rapid change, or do you think it's just carrying on at that pace?
00:22:34:20 - 00:23:03:10
Michael Whitmore
Well, I think there's a rebalance happening. And I think that's being played out in societal as well as workplace wellbeing, you know. So I think the two aspects are mirroring each other, I think as everybody's recovering from the shock of the pandemic, a sense of rebalance, I think, in communities around, how much they want to be part of the physical world again, as well as the virtual world.
00:23:03:12 - 00:23:29:23
Michael Whitmore
But that legacy, of what the pandemic presented to us - both the benefits and challenges - I think will always sort of stay in the workplace. Now, I don't think we'll ever move away from that. I think it did have a rapid effect on, on the technology use, telecommuting, you know, ability to, to manage oneself within teams and, virtual videoing.
00:23:30:00 - 00:23:55:03
Michael Whitmore
And so on. But I think there's, equally a slight calibration to, to regain some of the informal connections, some of that informal creativity, what we used to in the past called watercooler moments, you know, so, so, so trying to bring back together that, that essence of that creativity and connectivity that really does get supported in those moments of informality, really.
00:23:55:05 - 00:24:08:05
Helen Fitzhugh
I don't want you to look into a crystal ball, but I'm kind of looking to the future. What do you think are the really pressing things we should be looking at in the next decade with regard to workplace wellbeing?
00:24:08:07 - 00:24:33:11
Michael Whitmore
Well, I think we're on the verge of setting a new wellbeing paradigm, and it's one of the things and reasons why I pulled together the wellbeing focus group that I've been talking about, because I think we need to go beyond the current definitions of productivity, wellbeing and safety. Really, I think the world is going to force us to do that through climate change, through AI, through geopolitical changes.
00:24:33:11 - 00:24:59:12
Michael Whitmore
We're never going to stand still. And so actually, I think as we did move, move through the idea of occupational safety and health moving into more of a sense of broader wellbeing, I think there’s going to be another paradigm shift in what the future of work is going to look like. You know, how do we predict future risk?
00:24:59:14 - 00:25:28:00
Michael Whitmore
Because we weren't ready for the pandemic? And yet everybody knew that a pandemic would be coming, you know, so what's the what's the what's the prediction of the future risk? And therefore, you know, what's the implication of not responding to what we've seen in the past? And so that's one of the exciting things with my journey for wellbeing at the moment, you know, that I'm talking to you about climate change and AI and these things, but it's very exciting to have that included as part of the wellbeing.
00:25:28:00 - 00:25:50:19
Michael Whitmore
But it does call for what does the future hold for us. And I think I think that's a natural occurrence from the pandemic. It's okay. Well let's look are we ready for the next disaster recovery issues and how will wellbeing play a part in that? So I think that's one of the key issues, haven’t got all the solutions for it.
00:25:50:21 - 00:26:14:00
Michael Whitmore
But you know, one of the other things is why is, on the face of it, work, mental health worsening and not improving? Yeah, yeah. So all the changes I've discussed and we've discussed, you know, cannot be healthy for the human race. What is pushing that? Is it the workplace? Is it something greater than the workplace?
00:26:14:02 - 00:26:30:06
Michael Whitmore
We're on the train and we can't get off it. But, you know, are there ways that wellbeing can support. And I think that, again, will need, some disruption and the conception really of how we support mental health. I think that's a whole podcast in itself.
00:26:30:11 - 00:26:31:11
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah.
00:26:31:13 - 00:26:52:19
Michael Whitmore
I think I better not go into any more detail. I think also, I mentioned it earlier and I know, in your previous podcast, you've touched on it as well, but that sense of virtual line management, so as opposed to personal line management and how are we all getting on the off the hook, either employers or employees.
00:26:53:00 - 00:27:16:14
Michael Whitmore
And I think, you know, the invisibility of working away from the workplace is an advantage, to a lot of would be managers who don't want to go there as far as supporting staff and wellbeing, I think the, the ways that it's good practice support staff in the workplace, physically are still, equally there virtually.
00:27:16:14 - 00:27:46:06
Michael Whitmore
And they should be pursued and they should follow through to the end of their screen and often, I don't think they do. And I think two more, Helen really is we talk about this in our wellbeing circles, but are we losing the art of good work? And how much therefore is is the degree of introducing wellbeing a response to really losing the art of good working cultures and communities?
00:27:46:08 - 00:28:07:03
Michael Whitmore
Without wanting to to sound like a laggard of change, but how do we bring that along with us on the journey? Yeah. So we don't lose that. And I think I'll go back to, to, you know, that old bio psycho social health and productivity model. So, you know, how can that be reimagined?
00:28:07:05 - 00:28:40:14
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah, that's really great. Thank you so much, Michael and I, I've been thinking about what you've been talking about. And it's a wonderful mix of kind of continuity showing us that there are some things that people have been struggling with for, for a really long time and are still struggling with, but also change that there are new things around the corner, both at the really micro level of of practices of management or, ways of organizing up to global challenges that people are facing that will impact on the future of work.
00:28:40:20 - 00:28:57:15
Helen Fitzhugh
So I think we have actually, I said at the start, how are we going to cover that in 30 minutes? But I think we've covered continuity and change pretty well. So I want to thank you so much for that. And I'm going to be, very naughty and ask you to boil it down to one simple message for finishing up the podcast.
00:28:57:15 - 00:29:05:07
Helen Fitzhugh
If if people only take one message, which of course they won't, they'll take a lot more than that. But what would you want them to take away with them?
00:29:05:09 - 00:29:32:14
Michael Whitmore
Well, I think I'd like to sum it up by saying that workplace wellbeing is definitely here to stay. I think the drivers affecting it are under constant change. What I haven't dwelt on too much is that management of risk? But we need to see wellbeing as risk management in organizations to help them personalize what's meaningful to individuals and workforces.
00:29:32:16 - 00:29:41:10
Michael Whitmore
And so to sum it all up in three words. I would say personalize, prevent and predict.
00:29:41:12 - 00:29:54:13
Helen Fitzhugh
That's a wonderful place to finish. So thank you so much for speaking with us today. And yeah, I hope we will have you back on the podcast in the future to talk about, some of this exciting other work that you've been doing.
00:29:54:15 - 00:30:00:14
Michael Whitmore
Thank you very much, Helen. Really enjoyed the session.
00:30:00:16 - 00:30:11:12
Helen Fitzhugh
Please do visit www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org. We look forward to seeing you next time.
Helen Fitzhugh
Welcome to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing podcast. This podcast is part of a toolkit of free, evidence-informed workplace wellbeing resources provided by the Workplace Wellbeing Research team at the University of East Anglia in the UK. You can find the resources on www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org
00:00:28:06 - 00:00:44:17
Helen Fitzhugh
Welcome to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing podcast. My name is Dr Helen Fitzhugh from the University of East Anglia, and I'm delighted to be here today with Michael Whitmore, research leader in health, work and wellbeing at RAND Europe, a not-for-profit research organization. Welcome, Michael.
00:00:44:19 - 00:00:47:24
Michael Whitmore
Thank you very much, Helen. Great to be speaking with you.
00:00:48:01 - 00:01:00:11
Helen Fitzhugh
I obviously have worked with you quite a bit in the past, but I'd love it if you could introduce yourself to our listener. Tell us a little bit about your career journey and your professional interest in workplace wellbeing.
00:01:00:13 - 00:01:22:06
Michael Whitmore
Yeah. Great. Helen. Yes, thanks. So I had a previous professional background in public health and social work and I think when I first developed the interest in health, work and wellbeing, it probably goes back to when I was setting up information, advice and guidance centres at the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. So that's going back a long way now. But that was bringing young people, into education, employment and training.
00:01:22:12 - 00:01:53:20
Michael Whitmore
But still using a case-managed approach to it. It was new and novel at the time. And that really looked at a biopsychosocial approach to inclusion in the workplace, in education and so on. That kind of sowed the seeds, really, I think. And then once I'd completed my executive MBA, I went through to look at organizational culture and also cultural due diligence in mergers and acquisitions.
00:01:53:21 - 00:02:24:07
Michael Whitmore
So from that I moved into, health management consultancy. And as my role there, I was programme director for the delivery of an 11 million pound proof of concept for fit for work services. So with working with the joint from the first joint Health Work and Wellbeing unit between the Department of Health and Department of Work and Pensions, and it was one of the government's responses to Dame Carol Black's 2008 Working for Healthy Tomorrow paper.
00:02:24:10 - 00:02:58:19
Michael Whitmore
We definitely looked at the reduction of sickness absence and we found, though, that we couldn't, easily separate that from presenteeism. And as the proof of concept evaluation continued, there was a growing demand by those delivering the services for us, as a central team, to look at how presenteeism interacted with absenteeism. And presenteeism is is where, somebody might be at work but not working optimally for, for whatever reason, that might be.
00:02:58:19 - 00:03:29:19
Michael Whitmore
So there's quite an interesting there. So that really pulled me into the world of health, work and wellbeing. Having successfully led that to the completion, then I also then moved into a, a large global wellbeing organization called Optum, which is part of UnitedHealth Group, and I became director for international wellbeing there. And so I took field trips across to the USA and other other countries to look at how they were already delivering their corporate wellness and employee assistance programmes and so on.
00:03:29:19 - 00:03:57:02
Michael Whitmore
And looking at how we could reconceive a model that applied to the UK, and also with our Australian colleagues as well, got quite involved in, reviewing occupational health markets both in the UK and in Australia as well. So quite a, quite varie and very interesting. Fast forward a little bit. I've been at Rand Europe for eight years now.
00:03:57:02 - 00:04:12:08
Michael Whitmore
They originally asked me to come in to oversee my, work with Vitality Health on Britain's Healthiest Workplace. And, people can see that still on our website, as well as vitality health, website as well. So I won't go into that in too much detail. But nevertheless.
00:04:12:08 - 00:04:15:07
Helen Fitzhugh
And the Evolve website Michael, I’m just saying.
00:04:16:21 - 00:04:22:18
Helen Fitzhugh
Because we've got the business case calculator on the Evolve website, so I couldn't let it go past without saying that as well.
00:04:22:20 - 00:04:42:03
Michael Whitmore
Well I shouldn't… and I and you mentioned earlier that we've done a lot of work together, and it's actually on some of the subject matter from that project. So we both know quite a lot around the data from the inside out, I suspect. So, yeah. So it's brought us together on on the Evolve work, ao I'm glad you pulled me up on that Helen.
00:04:42:05 - 00:05:03:24
Michael Whitmore
And so originally asked to oversee that, and, and I did so. My research areas with RAND Europe quickly expanded more around that. And it's led to some really interesting stuff. So, we were looking at some of the emerging topics coming through in the workplace wellbeing and whether the vendor space, is really evidence based.
00:05:04:03 - 00:05:35:21
Michael Whitmore
So whether some of the offerings were actually evidence based or not, and also helping to support those trying to consider that, you know, what to look for in an evidence based approach. That's, that's sort of whole breadth and span of the research that we've done has led me into looking at musculoskeletal issues, mental health issues, psychosocial issues, looking at safety in the workplace, sometimes more, sometimes looking at, wellbeing in the workplace, looking again with the data, with colleagues from UEA
00:05:35:22 - 00:05:50:02
Michael Whitmore
for instance around financial wellbeing. So, it's cut across the whole, arena of health, work and wellbeing in one area or the other. So very interesting eight years.
00:05:50:04 - 00:06:09:19
Helen Fitzhugh
And actually, I mean, you're saying all of this and I'm thinking, how are we going to fit it into half an hour of podcast? Because obviously you've done so many studies relating to wellbeing at work, and you've got both a kind of breadth but also a depth of experience. So what have you been doing lately that we're going to be talking about today?
00:06:09:21 - 00:06:30:06
Michael Whitmore
But there's a few things we're doing. And so in general, I think it's interesting to say that we've been working with Lloyd's Register Foundation in their efforts to establish a global safety evidence centre, so we can do some background research for them in that. And so what evidence do practitioners need in relation to safety and health at work?
00:06:30:08 - 00:06:57:18
Michael Whitmore
We've also been delivering and I've been leading work for EU OSHA on the indirect impact of climate change. That's an ongoing programme at the moment. But we're looking at the future, what, climate change might mean and how that, can affect working age populations. So that's a very interesting piece of work. We've recently published a number of years worth of work looking at evaluation of body worn cameras rolling out across the ambulance trusts for NHS.
00:06:57:21 - 00:07:49:03
Michael Whitmore
So that again’s very interesting. But what I’ll talk to you about now, before I digress into any of those points, is and I think it's timely and I think very helpful to anchor this back in to what's going on for HR directors and wellbeing leads actually now in this moment for wellbeing and we set up and I ran a group near the end of last year of wellbeing, leads and HR directors to discuss this, to discuss why sickness absence is rising, why productivity seemingly is diminishing, and what are the challenges in the wellbeing area, that they still see even though we're so far on in some respects with the research
00:07:49:05 - 00:07:54:20
Michael Whitmore
that we've been, all contributing to over the last decades.
00:07:54:22 - 00:08:04:18
Helen Fitzhugh
So a kind of state of the topic, discussion, exploration, trying to find out what's happening in organizations and what HR directors think is coming next.
00:08:04:20 - 00:08:28:18
Michael Whitmore
Yeah. So if we're generating all this evidence and, and great stuff, it all is too, you know, how is it the dial isn't moving and so what are the real life issues for HR directors and wellbeing leads? You know, how is life and the lived experience of trying to oversee wellbeing? You know what's that all about?
00:08:28:20 - 00:08:51:15
Helen Fitzhugh
And I think that's a really important topic to bring to the podcast, because what we always try and do here is say, you know, are there ways in which robust evidence can be used to influence practice to make things better? Essentially. So if you're saying you've been learning about the things that might be getting in the way of that, the things we might need to overcome, it's really helpful to have you here talking about examples.
00:08:51:15 - 00:08:56:13
Helen Fitzhugh
So could you could you talk me through what you found out on this, focus groups?
00:08:56:15 - 00:09:35:09
Michael Whitmore
Yeah. And I think it splits into two areas. Really. It's is this looking at what areas are still the issues being grappled with. And then also what are the sort of new generation of, topics and concerns and opportunities that are coming up. I think what was interesting from that group was how some of the common themes, that I would have still been looking at 15 or 20 years ago, are still in many ways present now.
00:09:35:11 - 00:10:16:24
Michael Whitmore
For instance, there was still discussion around the fact that HR professionals are very busy. You know, they get caught in all sorts of directions to discern which approaches are sufficiently evidence based in a very noisy and competitive wellness and wellbeing market is still a high challenge. I think that's an overriding point. So building a bespoke wellbeing program, you know, actually is locking in, being personalized to the organization itself and having the space and the capacity to do that, is still a challenge.
00:10:16:24 - 00:10:36:11
Michael Whitmore
It's it's quite complicated and time consuming task. And so, so being able to do that is still presenting itself as quite a challenge. So in that sense, doesn’t matter how much evidence you've got out there if you haven't got the, the, the time to be able to bring it together into ways that are meaningful for you in your own work.
00:10:36:16 - 00:11:03:04
Michael Whitmore
And so also that translates into a concern that small and medium sized enterprises - And this is something I've always spoken about in, in, in workplace wellbeing where, you know - they've got even less capacity to deploy wellbeing approaches. And you still have, you know, anecdotal, stories as well around small and medium sized enterprises have only got the capacity to deal with a wellbeing issue when it's there present and current.
00:11:03:06 - 00:11:31:07
Michael Whitmore
rather than looking at any preventative way of, of going about it, you know, so it only becomes an issue when it's at the top of somebody's priority list and it's, and it won't go away. So, so that's, that's always a tricky one. I don't think, we've we found the best way of supporting, those smaller sized organizations, and yet they, they do, obviously account for more
00:11:31:08 - 00:12:04:13
Michael Whitmore
than I think over half of the employment of staff in the UK. I think there remains uncertainty also that vendors, you know, could be selling wellbeing solutions and programmes that are not actually that well evidenced. Yeah. But how do people discern it? So for those feeling, you know, the government support and guidance is required if you don't get the support and the levers and the right type of understanding from government, then there's only so far that organizations can go with the agenda.
00:12:04:15 - 00:12:41:12
Michael Whitmore
And so that is the main points coming out of the the, the, regular issues that we've seen across the years and decades around this, you know, so I think this sort of acts as a great reminder that it's still, you know, in some ways making sure we get the basics correct. Yeah, yeah. And for instance why Evolve and so on is is so important in making sure we've got, you know, a condensed, easy to understand set of evidence that applies to practitioners in the workplace.
00:12:41:14 - 00:13:03:13
Helen Fitzhugh
And I think it is one of the things that, people who've who listened to this who have also been to one of our workshops, you know, they they might remember, me saying things like, you know, this working on workplace wellbeing is, unfortunately never finished, you know, but that's also a good thing, if you see what I mean, because otherwise you might think, oh, I'm, I'm not, I'm not done.
00:13:03:13 - 00:13:26:19
Helen Fitzhugh
You know, I haven't, I haven't ticked all the boxes or got us to a point where we are perfect and it's like, you're never going to be perfect. The evidence says people who are good in this space are always working on it, always considering what's coming next. And, you know, doing that kind of understanding of of learning and being in dialogue, being the key processes that keep this up and floating along, if you see what I mean.
00:13:26:19 - 00:13:59:18
Michael Whitmore
I think also that that sense of being able to move with the times, to pick up on the challenges, you've only got to look at how things have changed so vastly over the last five years. Yeah. To understand that wellbeing will never stand still. Yeah, there's some ways that you need to view wellbeing to understand how to apply it, but you're never applying it to the human condition the same year on year because the human condition changes as well as everything around us.
00:13:59:20 - 00:14:23:03
Michael Whitmore
And so I think that's one of the sort of key takeaways. And I think it's really astute to bring it out Helen of you, you know, around around that aspect. So if I go into some of those current challenges that came from the group, I think that will help to highlight it actually. So I think mental health is still ranking as a key wellbeing issue.
00:14:23:05 - 00:14:53:13
Michael Whitmore
And that's we've seen that, you know, the focus on that increase over the years, I think what was also noted, and this is great to have seen, I think in the early days, I was still pioneering what the definition of wellbeing was. But it is, you know, so, so having to explain to people what the difference between wellness and wellbeing was, one being more physical and one being more, a balance between physical, mental and psychosocial.
00:14:53:17 - 00:15:22:05
Michael Whitmore
And so it's good now that wellbeing is in common parlance across most organizations. And that was certainly felt in the group as well, that it is a central concern for many more organizations than it used to be. So also building requirements for managing neurodiversity in the workplace. So, that is something that's been increasing in attention over the last few years and I know is part of the wellbeing sector’s focus.
00:15:22:05 - 00:15:54:18
Michael Whitmore
There’s also technology changes having great impact in the workplace. Yeah. Particular introduction of digitization smart apps. But also AI it is not just the AI and technology itself, it's the way it's introduced and the changes around that. So that can create many different emotions and it can be done well or it can not be done well.
00:15:54:20 - 00:16:41:12
Michael Whitmore
And so, it can, really create a big difference in the workplace. So for instance, most of us that could work from home were able to work from home over the pandemic, for instance, that that wouldn't have happened ten years previous, I would suspect. And so the technology that that provides is both an important opportunity to maintain productivity, but also a challenge, in terms of, social isolation, managing the hybrid workforce and this balance that we see in the media all the time with CEO differences of opinions around how many days or hours should somebody work now in the office, and how should that be balanced with working from home and how the
00:16:41:12 - 00:16:59:23
Michael Whitmore
changes of opinions have happened with that? And that's before you get onto cohorts of staff that are not able to work from home and need to work, for instance, in manufacturing plants and so on. So the type of apparatus and technology that they use is changing on a daily basis. That can create all sorts of stress as well.
00:17:00:00 - 00:17:31:17
Michael Whitmore
So I've dwelt on that quite a lot. But I think it's an important sort of way, way of sort of explaining how these changes are all ways around us and we can't take it for granted. And, and the virtual management of employees and the and the virtual off setting and outsourcing of health, wealth and wellbeing, to to the invisibility of employee lives is is something that organizations may or may not be benefiting from at the expense of, of, employees, either wittingly or unwittingly, on behalf of both organizations and staff.
00:17:31:17 - 00:17:56:04
Michael Whitmore
So so that's something I think key. So also, I think, climate change mentioned that, one of the other projects I was talking about, but climate change, that's, that's, you know, having, all sorts of impacts on health and wellbeing and will continue to do so. And that can be direct. So it can be as simple as heat exposure.
00:17:56:06 - 00:18:29:13
Michael Whitmore
It can be as simple as vector borne diseases. So, how is that going to change, especially as mosquitoes migrate all sorts of different, issues, which then couple in with vaccine hesitancy and so on. So what are the risks involved? How does, changes in the workplace actually have an impact on, for instance, skills that people need to learn and develop as, regulations and guidelines about how to keep safe and well in the workplace change.
00:18:29:13 - 00:18:59:06
Michael Whitmore
How is the impact on long term condition manifestation going to occur as climate changes affect working and so on? I think what I'm building up to with all of this is also what the group was saying is that's personalization in the workplace. And I think that's one of the key fundamentals is, is changing. And I think you mentioned this as well around there's no one size fits all blanket approach to wellbeing.
00:18:59:08 - 00:19:23:01
Michael Whitmore
Now, I know both ourselves at RAND and yourselves at UEA have been saying this for a long time, you know, and we, we're both been talking about flexible working in both in all of our different ways and research projects around what a good job looks like, job design and so on. But actually, what sort of flexible working for one doesn't work for another.
00:19:23:03 - 00:19:52:03
Michael Whitmore
And, actually the worst thing you can do is enforce a blanket approach to, a whole cohort of staff and not allow flexibility. So if you're inflexible to applying flexible working, then that's going to incur as many difficulties around wellbeing as being inflexible in the first place. And so I think that's one of the things that was coming out of the group.
00:19:52:05 - 00:20:29:00
Michael Whitmore
I think the group also felt in essence, there was a good amount of evidence. But there was consensus it was difficult to make sense of and apply it to the organization specifically. Yeah. Unless you've got that time and the organization had brought in those key sets. And I think one final thing, which is a slight aside in some ways, but most direct in the others, is that there’s a change in the expectations of staff on what the organization, should provide for them.
00:20:29:02 - 00:20:58:16
Michael Whitmore
Again, in the earlier days, then there was a big debate around whether organizations would be seen to be meddling in the lives of employees around supporting lifestyle behaviour changes, which we all know can have a lot a great impact on, on, on the mortality and wellbeing of staff as well as productivity. So there was well, you know, there was a lot of debate and organizations pushing back and saying, no, we can't be seen and we won't interfere with with staff.
00:20:58:18 - 00:21:21:11
Michael Whitmore
You know, what they do outside of work is up to them. Whereas now there's an expectation, I think, from staff that there will be these wellbeing benefits provided for them. And I think we've seen that in new generations as well. And it's also pushed back to the overtime culture. And what, new generations will put up with about the expectations from organizations.
00:21:21:13 - 00:22:01:00
Michael Whitmore
And actually, I think as a result of that, Helen, I think you've probably seen it too. There's, there's much more interest academically as well as organizationally around wellbeing. So as much as now many organizations have leads for wellbeing or have appendaged wellbeing into their health and safety, or HR roles, then I think also academically, what I'm seeing is an awful lot more of interest and the younger generations that come into RAND Europe now, you know, actively have an interest in workplace wellbeing, understand it and want to be part of that journey in in applying their interests and skills to it where it is.
00:22:01:01 - 00:22:05:22
Michael Whitmore
I think in some ways in the past it was seen as more of a fringe activity.
00:22:05:24 - 00:22:34:18
Helen Fitzhugh
So it's bringing that into the mainstream. And some people said that, you know, the pandemic accelerated all of these considerations quite a bit. You know, if the pandemic hadn't happened, it's things that might have taken ten years to happen, happened in 2 or 3 months. Yeah. Which is interesting, isn't it? And, I wonder if there's also that sense of now a kind of a settling and a reorganizing after that period of rapid change, or do you think it's just carrying on at that pace?
00:22:34:20 - 00:23:03:10
Michael Whitmore
Well, I think there's a rebalance happening. And I think that's being played out in societal as well as workplace wellbeing, you know. So I think the two aspects are mirroring each other, I think as everybody's recovering from the shock of the pandemic, a sense of rebalance, I think, in communities around, how much they want to be part of the physical world again, as well as the virtual world.
00:23:03:12 - 00:23:29:23
Michael Whitmore
But that legacy, of what the pandemic presented to us - both the benefits and challenges - I think will always sort of stay in the workplace. Now, I don't think we'll ever move away from that. I think it did have a rapid effect on, on the technology use, telecommuting, you know, ability to, to manage oneself within teams and, virtual videoing.
00:23:30:00 - 00:23:55:03
Michael Whitmore
And so on. But I think there's, equally a slight calibration to, to regain some of the informal connections, some of that informal creativity, what we used to in the past called watercooler moments, you know, so, so, so trying to bring back together that, that essence of that creativity and connectivity that really does get supported in those moments of informality, really.
00:23:55:05 - 00:24:08:05
Helen Fitzhugh
I don't want you to look into a crystal ball, but I'm kind of looking to the future. What do you think are the really pressing things we should be looking at in the next decade with regard to workplace wellbeing?
00:24:08:07 - 00:24:33:11
Michael Whitmore
Well, I think we're on the verge of setting a new wellbeing paradigm, and it's one of the things and reasons why I pulled together the wellbeing focus group that I've been talking about, because I think we need to go beyond the current definitions of productivity, wellbeing and safety. Really, I think the world is going to force us to do that through climate change, through AI, through geopolitical changes.
00:24:33:11 - 00:24:59:12
Michael Whitmore
We're never going to stand still. And so actually, I think as we did move, move through the idea of occupational safety and health moving into more of a sense of broader wellbeing, I think there’s going to be another paradigm shift in what the future of work is going to look like. You know, how do we predict future risk?
00:24:59:14 - 00:25:28:00
Michael Whitmore
Because we weren't ready for the pandemic? And yet everybody knew that a pandemic would be coming, you know, so what's the what's the what's the prediction of the future risk? And therefore, you know, what's the implication of not responding to what we've seen in the past? And so that's one of the exciting things with my journey for wellbeing at the moment, you know, that I'm talking to you about climate change and AI and these things, but it's very exciting to have that included as part of the wellbeing.
00:25:28:00 - 00:25:50:19
Michael Whitmore
But it does call for what does the future hold for us. And I think I think that's a natural occurrence from the pandemic. It's okay. Well let's look are we ready for the next disaster recovery issues and how will wellbeing play a part in that? So I think that's one of the key issues, haven’t got all the solutions for it.
00:25:50:21 - 00:26:14:00
Michael Whitmore
But you know, one of the other things is why is, on the face of it, work, mental health worsening and not improving? Yeah, yeah. So all the changes I've discussed and we've discussed, you know, cannot be healthy for the human race. What is pushing that? Is it the workplace? Is it something greater than the workplace?
00:26:14:02 - 00:26:30:06
Michael Whitmore
We're on the train and we can't get off it. But, you know, are there ways that wellbeing can support. And I think that, again, will need, some disruption and the conception really of how we support mental health. I think that's a whole podcast in itself.
00:26:30:11 - 00:26:31:11
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah.
00:26:31:13 - 00:26:52:19
Michael Whitmore
I think I better not go into any more detail. I think also, I mentioned it earlier and I know, in your previous podcast, you've touched on it as well, but that sense of virtual line management, so as opposed to personal line management and how are we all getting on the off the hook, either employers or employees.
00:26:53:00 - 00:27:16:14
Michael Whitmore
And I think, you know, the invisibility of working away from the workplace is an advantage, to a lot of would be managers who don't want to go there as far as supporting staff and wellbeing, I think the, the ways that it's good practice support staff in the workplace, physically are still, equally there virtually.
00:27:16:14 - 00:27:46:06
Michael Whitmore
And they should be pursued and they should follow through to the end of their screen and often, I don't think they do. And I think two more, Helen really is we talk about this in our wellbeing circles, but are we losing the art of good work? And how much therefore is is the degree of introducing wellbeing a response to really losing the art of good working cultures and communities?
00:27:46:08 - 00:28:07:03
Michael Whitmore
Without wanting to to sound like a laggard of change, but how do we bring that along with us on the journey? Yeah. So we don't lose that. And I think I'll go back to, to, you know, that old bio psycho social health and productivity model. So, you know, how can that be reimagined?
00:28:07:05 - 00:28:40:14
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah, that's really great. Thank you so much, Michael and I, I've been thinking about what you've been talking about. And it's a wonderful mix of kind of continuity showing us that there are some things that people have been struggling with for, for a really long time and are still struggling with, but also change that there are new things around the corner, both at the really micro level of of practices of management or, ways of organizing up to global challenges that people are facing that will impact on the future of work.
00:28:40:20 - 00:28:57:15
Helen Fitzhugh
So I think we have actually, I said at the start, how are we going to cover that in 30 minutes? But I think we've covered continuity and change pretty well. So I want to thank you so much for that. And I'm going to be, very naughty and ask you to boil it down to one simple message for finishing up the podcast.
00:28:57:15 - 00:29:05:07
Helen Fitzhugh
If if people only take one message, which of course they won't, they'll take a lot more than that. But what would you want them to take away with them?
00:29:05:09 - 00:29:32:14
Michael Whitmore
Well, I think I'd like to sum it up by saying that workplace wellbeing is definitely here to stay. I think the drivers affecting it are under constant change. What I haven't dwelt on too much is that management of risk? But we need to see wellbeing as risk management in organizations to help them personalize what's meaningful to individuals and workforces.
00:29:32:16 - 00:29:41:10
Michael Whitmore
And so to sum it all up in three words. I would say personalize, prevent and predict.
00:29:41:12 - 00:29:54:13
Helen Fitzhugh
That's a wonderful place to finish. So thank you so much for speaking with us today. And yeah, I hope we will have you back on the podcast in the future to talk about, some of this exciting other work that you've been doing.
00:29:54:15 - 00:30:00:14
Michael Whitmore
Thank you very much, Helen. Really enjoyed the session.
00:30:00:16 - 00:30:11:12
Helen Fitzhugh
Please do visit www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org. We look forward to seeing you next time.
