WEBVTT
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Your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German startup scene with news,
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Interviews, and live events.
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Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate.io,
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your startup podcast and YouTube blog from Germany.
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Your go-to podcast for startup tech and innovations inside. Today,
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we have a special guest, Jens Philipp Jung, CEO of Link11, a leader in DDoS
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protection and one of the top 40 under 40 by Capital.
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If you ever wondered how to scale a tech business or navigate the challenges
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of cybersecurity in today's rapidly evolving market, this episode is for you.
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Let's dive into Philipp's entrepreneurial journey, leadership lessons and innovations
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in the cybersecurity space. Jens, welcome.
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Hi, Jaron. Very nice to be here. Welcome, everybody.
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Totally my pleasure. Let me spend a few words on our enabler today.
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This recording was made possible by HTII and the Enterprise Europe Network Hessen.
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These organizations have made tremendous contributions to helping startup businesses
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succeed and thrive, providing a range of services from helping to find grants
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to ongoing partnerships.
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By taking advantage of these resources, startup companies can network and develop
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innovative strategies for success on the international stage.
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The dedicated support of HTNI and the Enterprise Europe Network Hessen is paramount
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in providing startup businesses with the tools for lasting success.
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Learn more on htii.de and en-hessen.de.
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So now that we got that out of the way, Jens, thank you for joining us today.
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Let's start with your journey. What sparked your interest in technology and
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cybersecurity in the first place?
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Have you been a juvenile hacker?
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I wish, but unfortunately, I mainly used, when I was young, the computer for entertaining myself.
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So I was a passionate gamer.
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I mean, I was born in 83 and then get in touch with the first computers.
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And yeah, instead of doing something really useful with it, I spent my time in gaming with it.
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I would say the largest useful use of it was probably organizing LAN parties back in these days.
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So this was also why I was already very much familiar with networks and connecting
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computers and building these events and these infrastructure for the LAN parties back in these days,
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long before you were able to play with a good latency online.
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Yes, I remember those parties where you really had to physically bring your
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computer. I even remember the time when you have those red coaxial cables and
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need to screw them in and stuff like this.
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Yeah, good times. And I do know a lot of our audience is about the same age rate.
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What games did you play?
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Oh, it was primarily Counter-Strike. I heard it's still a thing today.
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Luckily, I left the whole gaming behind me. But back in these days,
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it was like primary Counter-Strike from early in the morning to late in the
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evening, except on school days.
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I see, I see. Well, for me, I was once at a LAN party with playing Counter-Strike,
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but after I died more than 40 times in 30 minutes, I thought, maybe not my game.
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You have built Link11 into a leader of IndeedOS Protection.
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How did the initial idea come about? And what was your vision when you first started the company?
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Yeah, this was actually a big coincidence. Because when we have founded the company initially,
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we founded the company as a managed
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service provider for low latency applications, network applications,
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and server applications, which was, I would say, partially because of my passion
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and history in the gaming and building these LAN parties.
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But this was how it came that we have set up and managed server infrastructures
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and network infrastructures in the data centers in Frankfurt.
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And while operating this business, we suddenly were faced with the so-called
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DDoS attacks, which have overwhelmed our network and put the whole infrastructure offline.
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And this was a serious issue and we
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needed to solve this issue and my co-founder Carsten Dessler
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who is a world-class engineer while I'm just a
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commercial guy to say so with some
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technical passion he has looked
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around what solutions we could implement to mitigate these
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DDoS attacks which had serious effects on the availability
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of our services which we have provided back in these days and he
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basically can come with an idea to develop on DDoS mitigation technology by
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himself leveraging his programming skills and our existing infrastructure and
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the solution was such good and such capable that.
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From words of mouth, other companies came to us and asked us if we could also
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provide this kind of DDoS mitigation technology to them.
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And as initially we only have developed it for ourselves, we find commercial
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agreements with them and also then developed a user interface for our technology
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that also other companies can use our service.
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And this was how we came into cybersecurity. So we were affected by a cyber
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attack where we didn't find any applicable solution and then have developed
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our own solution to help ourselves and now millions of other assets.
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I see. Most people will already know what Adidas attack is.
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Can you give us a short definition? And before that, we may add to our audience,
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because not everybody is aware of that we are heard globally around the world
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in more than 90 countries.
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Frankfurt is one of the most important centers of the Internet.
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We have the largest Internet node here in Frankfurt with the ECIX.
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And that's one of the reasons why we do have such a lot of cloud computing all
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around here, which basically laid the foundation for your business.
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And now back to you with the DDoS.
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Absolutely. So here in Frankfurt are all the data centers where the servers
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are running. And on the servers are obviously the applications.
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And the trickiest thing with the DDoS attack is that even if you have like a
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world-class data center with redundancy
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power, cooling, and all of these multi-million dollar investments,
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you have a lot of servers in the data center, and your highly sophisticated
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applications, if a data attack hits you, it basically saturates the internet
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connectivity of these servers.
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And if your application is depending to be reachable out of the internet,
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or even if it's reachable out of virtual private networks or similar things,
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then such data attack will interrupt the service.
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And it looks like your application is totally unavailable and offline.
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And especially nowadays where everything runs 24-7, this is a serious issue
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because imagine you have some high business peak days, for example,
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Black Friday, for example, Valentine Day in the e-commerce space.
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And then on such events, suddenly the whole online shop does not work any longer.
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Nobody can access it. Nobody can place any order.
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And you make like zero revenue on this day.
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What were some of the most unexpected challenges you encountered early in building
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your business and how did you overcome them?
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Well, I would say, you know, I was lucky and grew up in a nice area with nice
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friends and nice family and also some kind of moral picture and first,
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When I was very surprised about what happened was when we have actually received these DDoS attacks,
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because, I mean, this was somebody actively sending cyber attack to us to damage our business,
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which was already quite a surprise for me back in these days,
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because I never thought about that such things could happen.
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And I mean, we operated the business in a good manner and everything like that.
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And then somebody, and we don't even know who, because this is a tricky thing with cyber attacks.
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You usually don't know who was the initiator of the cyber attacks.
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Somebody has sent this attack to us, put us offline.
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So this was a big surprise for me and some kind of challenge.
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At the same time, very often out of challenges, you have opportunities.
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And I think we use this quite well.
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Another challenge and in a similar area, but unfortunately this does not bring
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really like an opportunity, was when we found out that we were cheated by some former employees.
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So this was really something very challenging for me also from a personal level
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because I always thought about, okay, what have we done wrong?
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Why were we cheated by this employee?
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And this was really like a challenging time to understand this and and to navigate
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through this because it totally,
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is um the opposite of what i understand from uh from a mobile compass and.
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I'm wondering if now your uh whole office is completely covered with cameras
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except the bathrooms but that's a really different
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Topic no actually not right and i mean this
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is the tricky thing um just because that
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thing happens to you once you should not lose trust
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and um and and
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and the good sign and the people right so actually we
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don't have installed any camera because of that um and
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and we also hope that it does not happen to us a second time um and yeah we
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trust our employees there and obviously since this was like a very early experience
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15 years ago and we've never had a second experience Since then,
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I think we were able to make better decisions when it comes to hiring and managing
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the people that such a thing would not happen again.
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I would be interested for our audience if they can think of an unexpected challenge
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they have faced in their startup journey.
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Happy to hear your thoughts, share them with us.
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Looking back now, what would you say was the biggest turning point for Link11?
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What moment made you feel like you're on the right path?
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Because my understanding is you had this DDoS tool and you just used it.
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And then somebody popped over into your office and said, hey,
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guys, your business is pretty good, but you did develop a tool there. Can I have it?
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Yeah, actually, this was also like a real turning point when we have won the first clients,
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but as they were still pretty small, I would say the biggest turning point was
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actually not too far away from winning the first client because there were then
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like nice demand from Fortune 500 organizations.
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And this was really like a turning point when we were able to win our first
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Fortune 500 client because it really shows, okay, this is what we have developed here.
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It's like a serious, it's a serious solution for a serious problem.
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And even the largest organization in this world are facing with the threat and
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are challenged or have challenges for solving these issues and these problems.
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So this was really like a turning point, which gave us also the confidence to
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have some kind of product market fit, which was an unformular term for us back
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in these days, obviously, speaking about 2010.
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You've recently been recognized as one of the top 40 under 40 by Capital,
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like the German equivalent of Forbes.
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How does this kind of recognition impact you personally and professionally?
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It has two impacts. So first impact is we are, as Link11, a kind of hidden champion,
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especially cybersecurity.
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I mean, we serve large B2B clients. We have a strong B2B focus,
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serving a very specific target audience, network administrator,
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head of network CISOs, and so on.
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So generally speaking, if you ask in a broader audience, who is Link 11 or what
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does Link 11 does, I would say the brand is not really familiar to many.
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And also then if we are going into hiring, we sometimes very much need to explain
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what we actually do, how is our company culture and so on.
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But this 40 on the 40 award helps
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us also to stand out a little bit and show about the
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capabilities of the organization and and what
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we have achieved so far so this really helps us in
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terms of hiring and standing out
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a little bit from these hit champion position and get some better visibility
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to other entrepreneurs investors and also potential employees and the second
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thing is when I was on my business trips in the USA and in Israel just lately,
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because of the acquisition, which we have done there,
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I always were very, very impressed how well all of these entrepreneurs are connected.
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And when I came back to Germany, I recognized that here, it's quite the opposite.
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I mean, yes, in Berlin, where we have like a nice startup scene,
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there is a lot of events, a lot of connection.
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But if you are outside of Berlin, it's very difficult. And there was not that
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many events, not that many connections.
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And therefore also these 40 on the 40
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about helped me because actually beside of
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the award there's also I mean beside of receiving the
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award for yourself you also have many other peoples there brilliant minds smart
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entrepreneurs great managers who received the similar award and they really
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emphasize these community of 40 on the 40 members we have our whatsapp groups
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our slack channels There are many events organized.
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You have peer group meetings.
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You are sharing best practices and you make new friends and connections.
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So this was really, really nice in terms of building a network and getting in
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touch with peer group and like-minded people.
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And going a little bit more into you, Maybe every entrepreneur has a set of
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habits and routines that help them to stay productive.
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What's one habit you swear by that had helped you in your journey?
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I think one of the most important things is to keep focus because there are so many,
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interesting opportunities out there so many great new ideas new technology new business models,
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and so on and one of the main thing is always keep on focus on what you are doing because if you,
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if you change too often if you lose the focus you will
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end up nowhere so i think one
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of the key routine i have
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for that i mean i created some kind of dashboard or
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a whiteboard where i have like the topics where
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i want to focus on um we just recently implemented okr
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to really thinking like a quadrual a quarter rhythm to really keep focus on
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the things which actually matter and and don't lose this focus because of any
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other ideas opportunities are out there and last but not least um if you if
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you get into a certain age i would say so um the best the best routine uh you
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could have is uh to have a supportive wife and family um so also on this receiving
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having said that uh nice greetings to my wife Jessica the love of my life oh.
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So sweet um that also brings me to the next question how do you balance the
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demands of a growing business while maintaining a healthy work-life balance
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Yeah that's a tricky one what
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I read and and and learned and heard and also experience is that what many successful
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founders have in common is that they are working as hell.
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So, building a startup is not a part-time job, and it's also not a full-time job.
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It's like an 80 to 100 hours a week job, in my opinion, right?
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And what I heard from others, I mean, if you ask work-life balance coaches,
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they will tell you the opposite, right?
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But so, my experience is if you want to build a startup and if you really want to be successful,
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we speak about 80 to 100 hours, Which basically means like you wake up,
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you have a quick breakfast, and then you work on your startup until you go into bed,
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sleeping, and then every day the same. Repeat this.
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Work like hell, right? When there is crunch time, then really lean in.
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And yes, then there are also things like sport, healthy food,
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meeting with friends, building relationships, and things like that.
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You know, the day only has 24 hours. And I always thought about,
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hey, if others work eight hours and I would work 16 hours a day,
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I could basically achieve twice the outcome.
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So this was, I mean, this is where I say like basically, okay,
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building a startup requires just a lot of time.
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And if you speak with other successful founders and ask them about,
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okay, what actually in the beginning, especially how many hours have you worked a day?
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I think many would answer that it was way above 40 hours.
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So work-life balance comes for me at least right after I have brought the company to a certain stage.
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Currently, it's like 100% the company and nothing else.
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Okay. Link11 is known for its cutting-edge technology and innovation.
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How do you stay ahead of the curve in such a fast-paced and competitive industry?
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Yeah, indeed. Also, not only that the technology shifts very fast,
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also it's a kind of cat-and-mouse game because you have the hackers who develop
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new threads and you always need to keep pace with that.
00:20:11.601 --> 00:20:21.681
So the kind of good source for keeping pace with that is your customer base.
00:20:22.721 --> 00:20:27.841
So our customers, as already said, we are setting to very technical people,
00:20:27.841 --> 00:20:34.761
and they are all very great minds and a great source for ideas and inspiration.
00:20:35.661 --> 00:20:40.561
You just need to listen very carefully to them. You need to find the time to speak with them.
00:20:40.961 --> 00:20:45.561
You need to find the common challenges between the different individual statements
00:20:45.561 --> 00:20:48.581
of this customer base, of these feedbacks.
00:20:48.661 --> 00:20:56.521
But speaking to your clients is very, very often the best source of inspiration
00:20:56.521 --> 00:20:58.681
and great business ideas.
00:21:00.661 --> 00:21:03.661
Yes, customer-centric, I see.
00:21:04.541 --> 00:21:09.761
For our audience, I would be curious what innovative tools or strategies have
00:21:09.761 --> 00:21:13.941
to help you to stay ahead in your business. Share them with us.
00:21:15.581 --> 00:21:21.361
Jens, can you walk us through a specific instance when you had to pivot or adjust
00:21:21.361 --> 00:21:26.401
Link11's approach in response to market challenges or new cybersecurity threats?
00:21:27.601 --> 00:21:32.161
I would say DDoS is some kind of evergreen topic.
00:21:33.661 --> 00:21:40.281
Good and bad on the same time because if if there are new cyber threats um in our sector,
00:21:40.781 --> 00:21:44.661
we could adopt to them and we could we could develop new solutions but ddos
00:21:44.661 --> 00:21:50.301
is like already existing since 20 30 years and probably will exist also for
00:21:50.301 --> 00:21:56.041
the next 20 to 30 years so we have the situation that there was not like a real
00:21:56.041 --> 00:22:00.181
pivot need in terms of these um data solution,
00:22:00.341 --> 00:22:02.721
what we have, right, which is type of our core business.
00:22:03.761 --> 00:22:12.141
But while the threat of data attacks was there and is still there and also increases,
00:22:12.521 --> 00:22:17.401
now our customers also facing other threats and other cyber attacks.
00:22:17.621 --> 00:22:23.061
And therefore, the customers are demanding more like a platform solution instead
00:22:23.061 --> 00:22:28.341
of a single capability solution.
00:22:28.341 --> 00:22:33.481
And this is a kind of special situation because you know in the past it was
00:22:33.481 --> 00:22:37.341
good enough to have the best details mitigation service,
00:22:38.211 --> 00:22:45.071
Because customers tend to buy best in breed. But now customers want to have vendor consolidation.
00:22:45.091 --> 00:22:48.371
They want to have a single vendor providing more solutions.
00:22:49.171 --> 00:22:51.791
And therefore, it's super important to have multiple products.
00:22:52.011 --> 00:22:56.931
Which was then kind of a pivot for us to get out of the dealer space and offer
00:22:56.931 --> 00:22:59.831
a more broader service range.
00:23:00.071 --> 00:23:05.351
And luckily, we have already anticipated this trend and made some strategic
00:23:05.351 --> 00:23:10.951
acquisitions. So, part of the product portfolio we are now offering was developed by ourselves.
00:23:11.211 --> 00:23:15.071
Part of the product portfolio and what we are offering was through strategic
00:23:15.071 --> 00:23:21.591
acquisitions, which was some kind of pivotal moment for us and some kind of
00:23:21.591 --> 00:23:24.311
change in terms of strategy.
00:23:25.511 --> 00:23:30.971
And if you are still nowadays, I would say some kind of one trick pony,
00:23:31.251 --> 00:23:38.411
that would be very challenging in nowadays buying behavior who really tends
00:23:38.411 --> 00:23:43.011
to have more like a platform solution instead of an island solution.
00:23:43.251 --> 00:23:49.091
Going a little bit into a more scaling mindset,
00:23:49.671 --> 00:23:55.631
what do you think is the most difficult task, the most difficult aspect in scaling
00:23:55.631 --> 00:24:00.191
a tech company and how would you advise other founders to approach it?
00:24:00.711 --> 00:24:07.391
Three very difficult points. Hiring, hiring, hiring.
00:24:09.911 --> 00:24:16.271
So I would say because, I mean, now we have this huge AI boom and maybe then
00:24:16.271 --> 00:24:24.111
it changed a little bit because you need to hire less human workforce and can leverage AI.
00:24:24.111 --> 00:24:27.411
I mean, nowadays you have companies which only have five employees and are very
00:24:27.411 --> 00:24:32.031
successful, but generally speaking, I think hiring is one of the most challenging,
00:24:32.851 --> 00:24:35.811
aspect of scaling a tech company because,
00:24:37.518 --> 00:24:46.478
Well, it's usually not the big issue to have enough applications for a certain shop.
00:24:46.638 --> 00:24:51.558
I mean, we, for example, have more than 2,000 applications just for seven open positions.
00:24:52.778 --> 00:24:56.638
So the challenge is not to get the applications and to find the talent.
00:24:56.778 --> 00:25:01.718
The challenge is to hire the best talent out of this pool. especially if you
00:25:01.718 --> 00:25:07.618
are competing in a market with US competitors which usually have higher salaries
00:25:07.618 --> 00:25:09.218
than the European counterparts.
00:25:09.698 --> 00:25:12.838
So this really become a very tricky point.
00:25:13.058 --> 00:25:19.898
And if you hire the wrong people, you're not only using obviously money,
00:25:19.898 --> 00:25:25.838
but you're using also a lot of time and a lot of pace.
00:25:25.838 --> 00:25:32.818
And this is really, I would say, the most challenging part of scaling the company
00:25:32.818 --> 00:25:35.498
and especially scaling the company very, very fast.
00:25:36.498 --> 00:25:40.758
Actually, my next question was about hiring, building a strong team.
00:25:40.958 --> 00:25:49.398
I would be curious, what qualities do you look for in hiring those people in order to scale?
00:25:50.138 --> 00:25:56.998
We believe that at the end, attitude and mindset matters the most.
00:25:58.138 --> 00:26:04.858
So basically, if you have a very well-skilled applicant, but he's lazy,
00:26:05.558 --> 00:26:08.658
then this is not a good hire.
00:26:08.798 --> 00:26:13.098
So better hire somebody who really works hard, who wants to achieve something,
00:26:13.258 --> 00:26:18.658
who really leans in, because he can learn most of the things which are necessary.
00:26:19.398 --> 00:26:27.238
And so mindset mindset is super important i would say like the single most important,
00:26:29.497 --> 00:26:37.157
And then obviously culture fit, which also belongs somehow to a kind of mindset, right?
00:26:37.237 --> 00:26:43.697
I mean, if we have a culture where people want to win, and where we want to
00:26:43.697 --> 00:26:47.337
be successful, and we really lean in, and we are very supportive to each other.
00:26:48.017 --> 00:26:53.477
We basically have the motto that when we work hard, we also work with a lot
00:26:53.477 --> 00:27:01.177
of fun. So, this culture map or this culture match obviously needs to be achieved.
00:27:01.637 --> 00:27:10.377
Otherwise, the higher, the new person won't feel comfortable in the environment and also vice versa.
00:27:12.977 --> 00:27:18.017
Interesting. But as we know, culture eats strategy for breakfast. first.
00:27:18.177 --> 00:27:26.377
I was curious because you apparently do have partnerships in Link 11 and what role did they play?
00:27:26.557 --> 00:27:30.957
Because I read that you do have currently in one press release,
00:27:31.097 --> 00:27:34.517
I don't know if it's up to date, 11 locations across the world.
00:27:34.597 --> 00:27:37.977
I do believe that also works with partnerships of some kind.
00:27:38.137 --> 00:27:44.257
And what are the most important ones and how did they work for you in order to help to scale?
00:27:44.837 --> 00:27:51.097
Our partnerships were very long time focused on go-to-market partnerships.
00:27:52.117 --> 00:27:58.457
So as we have developed a great solution, we only had a small amount of workforce
00:27:58.457 --> 00:28:04.437
for selling these solutions and also only limited capabilities in terms of marketing.
00:28:04.737 --> 00:28:12.577
So we have leveraged very, very early already partnerships from a go-to-market perspective.
00:28:13.517 --> 00:28:19.117
So meaning finding organizations, data center providers, hosting companies,
00:28:20.017 --> 00:28:26.677
managed service provider, consultancy organizations who help us with putting
00:28:26.677 --> 00:28:29.797
our technology and our product to the customer base.
00:28:30.457 --> 00:28:39.337
And while this was already the focus since quite a long, We have now also extended
00:28:39.337 --> 00:28:44.017
this focus to look more towards OAM partnerships,
00:28:44.417 --> 00:28:46.357
integrations, tech partnerships,
00:28:46.797 --> 00:28:51.097
to not only leveraging from a go-to-market perspective,
00:28:51.257 --> 00:28:58.257
but also more from a product and strategic perspective, which is obviously a
00:28:58.257 --> 00:29:05.937
different kind of tactic and also very different from each other.
00:29:05.937 --> 00:29:09.897
But we believe if we are successful with these kind of partnerships,
00:29:09.897 --> 00:29:13.017
this would definitely make a huge difference.
00:29:13.017 --> 00:29:21.037
And we also believe that joining forces and achieving something together does
00:29:21.037 --> 00:29:24.237
not only make more fun, but also generates greater outcome.
00:29:25.698 --> 00:29:35.758
I see. We talked about cybersecurity here a lot, and it is definitely an evolving space.
00:29:35.958 --> 00:29:45.698
I would be curious, what kind of trends are you looking for right now in a professional term?
00:29:45.698 --> 00:29:51.458
And on a private level, I do have the tendency to always ask all my guests in
00:29:51.458 --> 00:29:57.858
cybersecurity, on what level is your paranoia for your company and you personally
00:29:57.858 --> 00:29:59.458
in terms of cybersecurity?
00:30:02.438 --> 00:30:06.258
Well, which of both should I answer first?
00:30:08.178 --> 00:30:16.858
Well, let's start with the trends. there are currently three big trends in the cybersecurity space.
00:30:17.958 --> 00:30:23.738
And I mean, the first trend is very much in common with like in all industries.
00:30:23.798 --> 00:30:26.398
And we're speaking about the age of AI.
00:30:27.678 --> 00:30:35.178
So AI does not only make the companies and the workforce more efficient,
00:30:35.178 --> 00:30:40.478
It also makes the criminals and the attackers more efficient.
00:30:41.518 --> 00:30:47.438
So, beside of super complex phishing attacks where you have like emulated video,
00:30:47.858 --> 00:30:55.038
voice, audio, and so on, which is super hard to detect,
00:30:55.038 --> 00:31:01.878
You also have more and more complex AI attacks on network and application layers
00:31:01.878 --> 00:31:04.178
using more sophisticated tactics,
00:31:04.818 --> 00:31:09.698
more human looking traffic and approach than ever before.
00:31:10.078 --> 00:31:13.818
Because I mean, in cybersecurity, it's always a challenge to find out,
00:31:13.958 --> 00:31:18.118
okay, what is legit versus what is like malicious.
00:31:19.038 --> 00:31:24.058
And the more it looks like human traffic, the more difficult it is to identify it.
00:31:24.915 --> 00:31:31.655
So AI definitely changes the game and it also will create a lot of more cyber
00:31:31.655 --> 00:31:34.295
attacks because with like vibe coding and so on.
00:31:34.415 --> 00:31:41.835
And yes, currently many models block such requests, but there are also AIs out
00:31:41.835 --> 00:31:46.055
there which don't block any malicious activity where you can ask an AI to say
00:31:46.055 --> 00:31:48.035
like, hey, please develop me a virus.
00:31:48.255 --> 00:31:54.315
Please develop me an attack, Adidas attack program and application and similar
00:31:54.315 --> 00:31:59.295
things. So this would just basically increase the amount of attacks and also
00:31:59.295 --> 00:32:01.355
increase very much the sophistication of attack.
00:32:01.575 --> 00:32:09.075
So this is trend number one, AI, which makes cyber attacks more serious and more often.
00:32:10.095 --> 00:32:17.475
And then the second trend in cybersecurity is the so-called shift-left approach.
00:32:17.475 --> 00:32:22.295
With shift left approach basically mean that in the past,
00:32:22.475 --> 00:32:27.315
you had like classical development, and then you had like a DevOps team who
00:32:27.315 --> 00:32:32.135
operating the application, and sometimes you had a network team,
00:32:32.135 --> 00:32:35.395
and then you had somewhere at the end, the security team.
00:32:35.875 --> 00:32:40.755
So, which means like, okay, then the security guys need to live with whatever
00:32:40.755 --> 00:32:44.875
they receive from the development and application team and from the operating
00:32:44.875 --> 00:32:50.395
team, and then trying to build the walls around it and fix it and make it secure.
00:32:51.095 --> 00:32:56.515
And the shift left approach is like to put cybersecurity more towards the development
00:32:56.515 --> 00:32:59.775
of the application and like native integrations in the applications.
00:33:01.875 --> 00:33:05.335
And this, at the end, will hopefully lead to,
00:33:06.135 --> 00:33:11.535
I mean, the idea is that this leads to more safer applications and not only
00:33:11.535 --> 00:33:16.035
like patching vulnerabilities, but also avoiding vulnerabilities and creating
00:33:16.035 --> 00:33:17.395
overall and saver environment.
00:33:18.884 --> 00:33:27.304
I hope that the AI applications, which are now generated, also has a nice security
00:33:27.304 --> 00:33:29.104
concept already integrated.
00:33:29.984 --> 00:33:36.844
And the third big trend in cybersecurity is the so-called zero trust trend.
00:33:36.844 --> 00:33:42.904
So zero trust means in cybersecurity, basically,
00:33:43.404 --> 00:33:49.704
that you need to design your architecture,
00:33:49.984 --> 00:33:57.764
your IT architecture in a way that you could not longer trust the other devices
00:33:57.764 --> 00:33:59.144
in your network, for example.
00:33:59.144 --> 00:34:05.164
But also, you are not 100% sure if you could trust the current request and application
00:34:05.164 --> 00:34:08.984
and also the user in front of this application.
00:34:10.864 --> 00:34:15.744
So imagine a very, very simple kind of zero trust initiative.
00:34:16.104 --> 00:34:20.684
Imagine you are in an office and you leave your computer, right?
00:34:20.904 --> 00:34:23.344
Normally, you say like, yeah, no issue. I left my computer.
00:34:23.684 --> 00:34:26.804
What should happen? All of the people here in the building are working for the
00:34:26.804 --> 00:34:31.884
same organization. All of these people here in the building are good humans,
00:34:32.124 --> 00:34:33.544
so nothing could happen.
00:34:34.864 --> 00:34:38.064
But Zero Trust means, for example, also that you think about,
00:34:38.224 --> 00:34:44.264
okay, but what actually one of this person does not only has good things in mind.
00:34:44.444 --> 00:34:50.404
So therefore, you lock your computer when you leave the desktop in your office, even.
00:34:51.544 --> 00:34:54.424
If in the in in the early days right you
00:34:54.424 --> 00:34:57.304
you never thought about okay somebody of your colleagues could
00:34:57.304 --> 00:35:00.344
do some vulnerable things on your computer so this is like the zero
00:35:00.344 --> 00:35:03.404
trust trend and it starts with like the
00:35:03.404 --> 00:35:06.984
user it goes over application it goes over networks so
00:35:06.984 --> 00:35:10.384
also in the past you have typically build these corporate networks by
00:35:10.384 --> 00:35:13.444
by protecting the perimeter and you
00:35:13.444 --> 00:35:16.704
have your DMZ the dematerialized zone
00:35:16.704 --> 00:35:19.744
so everything within the corporate network was
00:35:19.744 --> 00:35:22.604
trustable everything outside of the corporate network was
00:35:22.604 --> 00:35:25.904
not trustable and the zero trust initiative basically
00:35:25.904 --> 00:35:28.984
says like hey also everything within your network don't
00:35:28.984 --> 00:35:32.764
trust them um have have certain
00:35:32.764 --> 00:35:36.184
rules firewalls and so on in place because imagine if.
00:35:36.184 --> 00:35:39.304
One device in the copper network gets hacked for whatever
00:35:39.304 --> 00:35:42.124
reason without like having the zero
00:35:42.124 --> 00:35:45.784
trust approach and like multiple segmentations these
00:35:45.784 --> 00:35:49.384
this initially infection could spread
00:35:49.384 --> 00:35:52.944
across the whole corporate network and in
00:35:52.944 --> 00:35:55.924
the past this was the case and in the past this was also why there
00:35:55.924 --> 00:35:59.024
was huge incidents and huge ransomware attacks and
00:35:59.024 --> 00:36:02.404
large corporates get down for multiple days weeks and
00:36:02.404 --> 00:36:05.544
even months and there was also some companies get bankrupt because of
00:36:05.544 --> 00:36:09.144
that and the zero trust approach basically wants
00:36:09.144 --> 00:36:11.824
to to mitigate all of this and saying like okay if you
00:36:11.824 --> 00:36:14.764
get infected it does not spread around so
00:36:14.764 --> 00:36:17.804
these are the three trends and you have
00:36:17.804 --> 00:36:23.264
also asked me about what is my paranoid level that we have a cyber attack I
00:36:23.264 --> 00:36:29.704
mean we have cyber attack every day on link 11 and we were able to mitigate
00:36:29.704 --> 00:36:35.784
all of them until now and I'm also very optimistic that we are able to mitigate them in the future and.
00:36:37.317 --> 00:36:43.117
Mitigating like hundreds of cyber techs each day. And we also have like all
00:36:43.117 --> 00:36:47.957
of these certifications, ESO, PCI, SOC 2, we are currently working on BCI C5.
00:36:48.177 --> 00:36:52.717
So we really invest a lot obviously as a cybersecurity company in our cybersecurity.
00:36:54.397 --> 00:37:00.577
So my Paranite level is quite high in terms of, otherwise we would not invest
00:37:00.577 --> 00:37:03.117
that much and would not put that much effort into it.
00:37:03.117 --> 00:37:10.697
But my saying, my really concerns that we have an issue are quite low because
00:37:10.697 --> 00:37:13.297
I know that we are very well protected.
00:37:13.677 --> 00:37:18.577
That's pretty good that you guys are well protected. And I was wondering with
00:37:18.577 --> 00:37:24.417
those cyber attacks on Link 11, if your opponents are not only training you
00:37:24.417 --> 00:37:27.377
to be better, but that's a different topic.
00:37:28.657 --> 00:37:31.737
I've seen a lot of interesting case studies.
00:37:32.377 --> 00:37:39.277
What are you protecting here? For example, what I found pretty impressive is Fraport,
00:37:40.177 --> 00:37:45.497
one of Europe's busiest airports, as well as Deutsche Flugssicherung,
00:37:45.737 --> 00:37:52.317
which is the air navigation service provider that makes sure all flight movements,
00:37:52.497 --> 00:37:55.497
all plane movements are secure in the German airspace.
00:37:55.497 --> 00:38:01.757
So, can you share some particularly challenging cases and how you handle them
00:38:01.757 --> 00:38:03.797
to provide cybersecurity for such places?
00:38:04.057 --> 00:38:09.457
Critical aspects of cyber attacks is always the time.
00:38:11.037 --> 00:38:15.917
So, because cyber attacks, usually the damage the cyber attacks could cause
00:38:15.917 --> 00:38:22.517
is, or close, with the time the cyber attacks exist.
00:38:22.517 --> 00:38:31.537
So therefore it's very very important to act super fast and reducing with that
00:38:31.537 --> 00:38:40.377
fast response also the potential impact of a cyber attack so a quite common case is if it.
00:38:41.282 --> 00:38:45.782
If there is a cyber attack with somebody who has not yet implemented any protection
00:38:45.782 --> 00:38:50.242
yet, it's really like an emergency case.
00:38:50.502 --> 00:38:54.522
So you need to imagine the company is offline.
00:38:54.762 --> 00:38:59.562
They have invested millions in operating the business and then suddenly everything stands still.
00:38:59.802 --> 00:39:04.722
They lose tons of money every minute this situation continues.
00:39:05.342 --> 00:39:09.282
They don't have visibility of the business, their customers can't reach them,
00:39:09.422 --> 00:39:17.162
they are maybe facing some damage claims because of non-availability and service interruption.
00:39:17.442 --> 00:39:22.362
So this is a serious situation and these incidents,
00:39:22.902 --> 00:39:32.262
these actual cyber attacks, this is always a particularly challenge,
00:39:32.262 --> 00:39:35.022
not only for the company, but also for us.
00:39:35.022 --> 00:39:39.902
And we have playbooks to handle the situation when customers call our emergency hotline.
00:39:40.022 --> 00:39:43.622
It's really like the, it's like the firefighters. You call 110,
00:39:44.062 --> 00:39:46.322
hey, link 11 here, what happened?
00:39:46.542 --> 00:39:50.342
And then we get the information, what actually happened. Then we say like,
00:39:50.422 --> 00:39:52.902
okay, look, this is our playbook. This is how we act.
00:39:53.122 --> 00:39:56.942
We need to, I mean, we also need to sometimes calm down the.
00:39:59.662 --> 00:40:02.682
How to say, to relax the people on the other side
00:40:02.682 --> 00:40:05.582
because I mean for us it's kind of daily
00:40:05.582 --> 00:40:08.522
business I mean luckily not every day we have
00:40:08.522 --> 00:40:12.182
these emergency situations from unprotected customers
00:40:12.182 --> 00:40:17.182
but we are used to it but for the other side it's like a new experience obviously
00:40:17.182 --> 00:40:23.282
and yeah this is always interesting situation and it reminds you really like
00:40:23.282 --> 00:40:29.362
the firefighters so hey this is the playbook this is how we solve the situation,
00:40:31.502 --> 00:40:34.902
and this is how we can help them.
00:40:35.082 --> 00:40:39.222
Hey guys, thanks for sticking around. The interview with Jens is actually so
00:40:39.222 --> 00:40:44.342
extensive and running so well that we decided to split this into two parts and
00:40:44.342 --> 00:40:48.202
we'll be back with recording number two pretty soon.
00:40:48.522 --> 00:40:49.662
Thank you very much.
00:40:49.842 --> 00:40:52.062
Thank you for sticking around and talk to you soon.
00:40:52.402 --> 00:40:53.162
Talk to you soon.
00:40:57.462 --> 00:41:07.382
That's all folks find more news streams events and interviews at www.startuprad.io
00:41:07.382 --> 00:41:09.902
remember sharing is caring
00:41:10.640 --> 00:41:23.467
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.760
00:00:08.749 --> 00:00:14.769
Your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German startup scene with news,
00:00:13.360 --> 00:00:19.440
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Interviews, and live events.
00:00:19.829 --> 00:00:23.589
Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate.io,
00:00:23.709 --> 00:00:26.289
your startup podcast and YouTube blog from Germany.
00:00:26.589 --> 00:00:30.949
Your go-to podcast for startup tech and innovations inside. Today,
00:00:31.149 --> 00:00:36.469
we have a special guest, Jens Philipp Jung, CEO of Link11, a leader in DDoS
00:00:36.469 --> 00:00:40.069
protection and one of the top 40 under 40 by Capital.
00:00:40.569 --> 00:00:45.529
If you ever wondered how to scale a tech business or navigate the challenges
00:00:45.529 --> 00:00:50.469
of cybersecurity in today's rapidly evolving market, this episode is for you.
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Let's dive into Philipp's entrepreneurial journey, leadership lessons and innovations
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in the cybersecurity space. Jens, welcome.
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Hi, Jaron. Very nice to be here. Welcome, everybody.
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Totally my pleasure. Let me spend a few words on our enabler today.
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This recording was made possible by HTII and the Enterprise Europe Network Hessen.
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These organizations have made tremendous contributions to helping startup businesses
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succeed and thrive, providing a range of services from helping to find grants
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to ongoing partnerships.
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By taking advantage of these resources, startup companies can network and develop
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innovative strategies for success on the international stage.
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The dedicated support of HTNI and the Enterprise Europe Network Hessen is paramount
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in providing startup businesses with the tools for lasting success.
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Learn more on htii.de and en-hessen.de.
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So now that we got that out of the way, Jens, thank you for joining us today.
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Let's start with your journey. What sparked your interest in technology and
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cybersecurity in the first place?
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Have you been a juvenile hacker?
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I wish, but unfortunately, I mainly used, when I was young, the computer for entertaining myself.
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So I was a passionate gamer.
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I mean, I was born in 83 and then get in touch with the first computers.
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And yeah, instead of doing something really useful with it, I spent my time in gaming with it.
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I would say the largest useful use of it was probably organizing LAN parties back in these days.
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So this was also why I was already very much familiar with networks and connecting
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computers and building these events and these infrastructure for the LAN parties back in these days,
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long before you were able to play with a good latency online.
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Yes, I remember those parties where you really had to physically bring your
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computer. I even remember the time when you have those red coaxial cables and
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need to screw them in and stuff like this.
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Yeah, good times. And I do know a lot of our audience is about the same age rate.
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What games did you play?
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Oh, it was primarily Counter-Strike. I heard it's still a thing today.
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Luckily, I left the whole gaming behind me. But back in these days,
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it was like primary Counter-Strike from early in the morning to late in the
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evening, except on school days.
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I see, I see. Well, for me, I was once at a LAN party with playing Counter-Strike,
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but after I died more than 40 times in 30 minutes, I thought, maybe not my game.
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You have built Link11 into a leader of IndeedOS Protection.
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How did the initial idea come about? And what was your vision when you first started the company?
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Yeah, this was actually a big coincidence. Because when we have founded the company initially,
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we founded the company as a managed
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service provider for low latency applications, network applications,
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and server applications, which was, I would say, partially because of my passion
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and history in the gaming and building these LAN parties.
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But this was how it came that we have set up and managed server infrastructures
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and network infrastructures in the data centers in Frankfurt.
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And while operating this business, we suddenly were faced with the so-called
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DDoS attacks, which have overwhelmed our network and put the whole infrastructure offline.
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And this was a serious issue and we
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needed to solve this issue and my co-founder Carsten Dessler
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who is a world-class engineer while I'm just a
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commercial guy to say so with some
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technical passion he has looked
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around what solutions we could implement to mitigate these
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DDoS attacks which had serious effects on the availability
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of our services which we have provided back in these days and he
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basically can come with an idea to develop on DDoS mitigation technology by
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himself leveraging his programming skills and our existing infrastructure and
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the solution was such good and such capable that.
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From words of mouth, other companies came to us and asked us if we could also
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provide this kind of DDoS mitigation technology to them.
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And as initially we only have developed it for ourselves, we find commercial
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agreements with them and also then developed a user interface for our technology
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that also other companies can use our service.
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And this was how we came into cybersecurity. So we were affected by a cyber
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attack where we didn't find any applicable solution and then have developed
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our own solution to help ourselves and now millions of other assets.
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I see. Most people will already know what Adidas attack is.
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Can you give us a short definition? And before that, we may add to our audience,
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because not everybody is aware of that we are heard globally around the world
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in more than 90 countries.
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Frankfurt is one of the most important centers of the Internet.
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We have the largest Internet node here in Frankfurt with the ECIX.
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And that's one of the reasons why we do have such a lot of cloud computing all
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around here, which basically laid the foundation for your business.
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And now back to you with the DDoS.
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Absolutely. So here in Frankfurt are all the data centers where the servers
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are running. And on the servers are obviously the applications.
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And the trickiest thing with the DDoS attack is that even if you have like a
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world-class data center with redundancy
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power, cooling, and all of these multi-million dollar investments,
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you have a lot of servers in the data center, and your highly sophisticated
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applications, if a data attack hits you, it basically saturates the internet
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connectivity of these servers.
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And if your application is depending to be reachable out of the internet,
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or even if it's reachable out of virtual private networks or similar things,
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then such data attack will interrupt the service.
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And it looks like your application is totally unavailable and offline.
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And especially nowadays where everything runs 24-7, this is a serious issue
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because imagine you have some high business peak days, for example,
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Black Friday, for example, Valentine Day in the e-commerce space.
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And then on such events, suddenly the whole online shop does not work any longer.
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Nobody can access it. Nobody can place any order.
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And you make like zero revenue on this day.
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What were some of the most unexpected challenges you encountered early in building
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your business and how did you overcome them?
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Well, I would say, you know, I was lucky and grew up in a nice area with nice
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friends and nice family and also some kind of moral picture and first,
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When I was very surprised about what happened was when we have actually received these DDoS attacks,
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because, I mean, this was somebody actively sending cyber attack to us to damage our business,
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which was already quite a surprise for me back in these days,
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because I never thought about that such things could happen.
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And I mean, we operated the business in a good manner and everything like that.
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And then somebody, and we don't even know who, because this is a tricky thing with cyber attacks.
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You usually don't know who was the initiator of the cyber attacks.
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Somebody has sent this attack to us, put us offline.
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So this was a big surprise for me and some kind of challenge.
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At the same time, very often out of challenges, you have opportunities.
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And I think we use this quite well.
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Another challenge and in a similar area, but unfortunately this does not bring
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really like an opportunity, was when we found out that we were cheated by some former employees.
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So this was really something very challenging for me also from a personal level
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because I always thought about, okay, what have we done wrong?
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Why were we cheated by this employee?
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And this was really like a challenging time to understand this and and to navigate
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through this because it totally,
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is um the opposite of what i understand from uh from a mobile compass and.
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I'm wondering if now your uh whole office is completely covered with cameras
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except the bathrooms but that's a really different
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Topic no actually not right and i mean this
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is the tricky thing um just because that
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thing happens to you once you should not lose trust
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and um and and
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and the good sign and the people right so actually we
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don't have installed any camera because of that um and
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and we also hope that it does not happen to us a second time um and yeah we
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trust our employees there and obviously since this was like a very early experience
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15 years ago and we've never had a second experience Since then,
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I think we were able to make better decisions when it comes to hiring and managing
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the people that such a thing would not happen again.
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I would be interested for our audience if they can think of an unexpected challenge
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they have faced in their startup journey.
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Happy to hear your thoughts, share them with us.
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Looking back now, what would you say was the biggest turning point for Link11?
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What moment made you feel like you're on the right path?
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Because my understanding is you had this DDoS tool and you just used it.
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And then somebody popped over into your office and said, hey,
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guys, your business is pretty good, but you did develop a tool there. Can I have it?
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Yeah, actually, this was also like a real turning point when we have won the first clients,
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but as they were still pretty small, I would say the biggest turning point was
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actually not too far away from winning the first client because there were then
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like nice demand from Fortune 500 organizations.
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And this was really like a turning point when we were able to win our first
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Fortune 500 client because it really shows, okay, this is what we have developed here.
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It's like a serious, it's a serious solution for a serious problem.
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And even the largest organization in this world are facing with the threat and
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are challenged or have challenges for solving these issues and these problems.
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So this was really like a turning point, which gave us also the confidence to
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have some kind of product market fit, which was an unformular term for us back
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in these days, obviously, speaking about 2010.
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You've recently been recognized as one of the top 40 under 40 by Capital,
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like the German equivalent of Forbes.
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How does this kind of recognition impact you personally and professionally?
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It has two impacts. So first impact is we are, as Link11, a kind of hidden champion,
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especially cybersecurity.
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I mean, we serve large B2B clients. We have a strong B2B focus,
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serving a very specific target audience, network administrator,
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head of network CISOs, and so on.
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So generally speaking, if you ask in a broader audience, who is Link 11 or what
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does Link 11 does, I would say the brand is not really familiar to many.
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And also then if we are going into hiring, we sometimes very much need to explain
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what we actually do, how is our company culture and so on.
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But this 40 on the 40 award helps
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us also to stand out a little bit and show about the
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capabilities of the organization and and what
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we have achieved so far so this really helps us in
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terms of hiring and standing out
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a little bit from these hit champion position and get some better visibility
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to other entrepreneurs investors and also potential employees and the second
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thing is when I was on my business trips in the USA and in Israel just lately,
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because of the acquisition, which we have done there,
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I always were very, very impressed how well all of these entrepreneurs are connected.
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And when I came back to Germany, I recognized that here, it's quite the opposite.
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I mean, yes, in Berlin, where we have like a nice startup scene,
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there is a lot of events, a lot of connection.
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But if you are outside of Berlin, it's very difficult. And there was not that
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many events, not that many connections.
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And therefore also these 40 on the 40
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about helped me because actually beside of
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the award there's also I mean beside of receiving the
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award for yourself you also have many other peoples there brilliant minds smart
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entrepreneurs great managers who received the similar award and they really
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emphasize these community of 40 on the 40 members we have our whatsapp groups
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our slack channels There are many events organized.
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You have peer group meetings.
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You are sharing best practices and you make new friends and connections.
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So this was really, really nice in terms of building a network and getting in
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touch with peer group and like-minded people.
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And going a little bit more into you, Maybe every entrepreneur has a set of
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habits and routines that help them to stay productive.
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What's one habit you swear by that had helped you in your journey?
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I think one of the most important things is to keep focus because there are so many,
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interesting opportunities out there so many great new ideas new technology new business models,
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and so on and one of the main thing is always keep on focus on what you are doing because if you,
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if you change too often if you lose the focus you will
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end up nowhere so i think one
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of the key routine i have
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for that i mean i created some kind of dashboard or
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a whiteboard where i have like the topics where
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i want to focus on um we just recently implemented okr
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to really thinking like a quadrual a quarter rhythm to really keep focus on
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the things which actually matter and and don't lose this focus because of any
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other ideas opportunities are out there and last but not least um if you if
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you get into a certain age i would say so um the best the best routine uh you
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could have is uh to have a supportive wife and family um so also on this receiving
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having said that uh nice greetings to my wife Jessica the love of my life oh.
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So sweet um that also brings me to the next question how do you balance the
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demands of a growing business while maintaining a healthy work-life balance
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Yeah that's a tricky one what
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I read and and and learned and heard and also experience is that what many successful
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founders have in common is that they are working as hell.
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So, building a startup is not a part-time job, and it's also not a full-time job.
00:17:48.544 --> 00:17:53.504
It's like an 80 to 100 hours a week job, in my opinion, right?
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And what I heard from others, I mean, if you ask work-life balance coaches,
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they will tell you the opposite, right?
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But so, my experience is if you want to build a startup and if you really want to be successful,
00:18:09.024 --> 00:18:13.404
we speak about 80 to 100 hours, Which basically means like you wake up,
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you have a quick breakfast, and then you work on your startup until you go into bed,
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sleeping, and then every day the same. Repeat this.
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Work like hell, right? When there is crunch time, then really lean in.
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And yes, then there are also things like sport, healthy food,
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meeting with friends, building relationships, and things like that.
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You know, the day only has 24 hours. And I always thought about,
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hey, if others work eight hours and I would work 16 hours a day,
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I could basically achieve twice the outcome.
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So this was, I mean, this is where I say like basically, okay,
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building a startup requires just a lot of time.
00:19:03.084 --> 00:19:08.704
And if you speak with other successful founders and ask them about,
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okay, what actually in the beginning, especially how many hours have you worked a day?
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I think many would answer that it was way above 40 hours.
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So work-life balance comes for me at least right after I have brought the company to a certain stage.
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Currently, it's like 100% the company and nothing else.
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Okay. Link11 is known for its cutting-edge technology and innovation.
00:19:49.181 --> 00:19:54.081
How do you stay ahead of the curve in such a fast-paced and competitive industry?
00:19:54.481 --> 00:20:00.341
Yeah, indeed. Also, not only that the technology shifts very fast,
00:20:00.521 --> 00:20:05.981
also it's a kind of cat-and-mouse game because you have the hackers who develop
00:20:05.981 --> 00:20:10.401
new threads and you always need to keep pace with that.
00:20:11.601 --> 00:20:21.681
So the kind of good source for keeping pace with that is your customer base.
00:20:22.721 --> 00:20:27.841
So our customers, as already said, we are setting to very technical people,
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and they are all very great minds and a great source for ideas and inspiration.
00:20:35.661 --> 00:20:40.561
You just need to listen very carefully to them. You need to find the time to speak with them.
00:20:40.961 --> 00:20:45.561
You need to find the common challenges between the different individual statements
00:20:45.561 --> 00:20:48.581
of this customer base, of these feedbacks.
00:20:48.661 --> 00:20:56.521
But speaking to your clients is very, very often the best source of inspiration
00:20:56.521 --> 00:20:58.681
and great business ideas.
00:21:00.661 --> 00:21:03.661
Yes, customer-centric, I see.
00:21:04.541 --> 00:21:09.761
For our audience, I would be curious what innovative tools or strategies have
00:21:09.761 --> 00:21:13.941
to help you to stay ahead in your business. Share them with us.
00:21:15.581 --> 00:21:21.361
Jens, can you walk us through a specific instance when you had to pivot or adjust
00:21:21.361 --> 00:21:26.401
Link11's approach in response to market challenges or new cybersecurity threats?
00:21:27.601 --> 00:21:32.161
I would say DDoS is some kind of evergreen topic.
00:21:33.661 --> 00:21:40.281
Good and bad on the same time because if if there are new cyber threats um in our sector,
00:21:40.781 --> 00:21:44.661
we could adopt to them and we could we could develop new solutions but ddos
00:21:44.661 --> 00:21:50.301
is like already existing since 20 30 years and probably will exist also for
00:21:50.301 --> 00:21:56.041
the next 20 to 30 years so we have the situation that there was not like a real
00:21:56.041 --> 00:22:00.181
pivot need in terms of these um data solution,
00:22:00.341 --> 00:22:02.721
what we have, right, which is type of our core business.
00:22:03.761 --> 00:22:12.141
But while the threat of data attacks was there and is still there and also increases,
00:22:12.521 --> 00:22:17.401
now our customers also facing other threats and other cyber attacks.
00:22:17.621 --> 00:22:23.061
And therefore, the customers are demanding more like a platform solution instead
00:22:23.061 --> 00:22:28.341
of a single capability solution.
00:22:28.341 --> 00:22:33.481
And this is a kind of special situation because you know in the past it was
00:22:33.481 --> 00:22:37.341
good enough to have the best details mitigation service,
00:22:38.211 --> 00:22:45.071
Because customers tend to buy best in breed. But now customers want to have vendor consolidation.
00:22:45.091 --> 00:22:48.371
They want to have a single vendor providing more solutions.
00:22:49.171 --> 00:22:51.791
And therefore, it's super important to have multiple products.
00:22:52.011 --> 00:22:56.931
Which was then kind of a pivot for us to get out of the dealer space and offer
00:22:56.931 --> 00:22:59.831
a more broader service range.
00:23:00.071 --> 00:23:05.351
And luckily, we have already anticipated this trend and made some strategic
00:23:05.351 --> 00:23:10.951
acquisitions. So, part of the product portfolio we are now offering was developed by ourselves.
00:23:11.211 --> 00:23:15.071
Part of the product portfolio and what we are offering was through strategic
00:23:15.071 --> 00:23:21.591
acquisitions, which was some kind of pivotal moment for us and some kind of
00:23:21.591 --> 00:23:24.311
change in terms of strategy.
00:23:25.511 --> 00:23:30.971
And if you are still nowadays, I would say some kind of one trick pony,
00:23:31.251 --> 00:23:38.411
that would be very challenging in nowadays buying behavior who really tends
00:23:38.411 --> 00:23:43.011
to have more like a platform solution instead of an island solution.
00:23:43.251 --> 00:23:49.091
Going a little bit into a more scaling mindset,
00:23:49.671 --> 00:23:55.631
what do you think is the most difficult task, the most difficult aspect in scaling
00:23:55.631 --> 00:24:00.191
a tech company and how would you advise other founders to approach it?
00:24:00.711 --> 00:24:07.391
Three very difficult points. Hiring, hiring, hiring.
00:24:09.911 --> 00:24:16.271
So I would say because, I mean, now we have this huge AI boom and maybe then
00:24:16.271 --> 00:24:24.111
it changed a little bit because you need to hire less human workforce and can leverage AI.
00:24:24.111 --> 00:24:27.411
I mean, nowadays you have companies which only have five employees and are very
00:24:27.411 --> 00:24:32.031
successful, but generally speaking, I think hiring is one of the most challenging,
00:24:32.851 --> 00:24:35.811
aspect of scaling a tech company because,
00:24:37.518 --> 00:24:46.478
Well, it's usually not the big issue to have enough applications for a certain shop.
00:24:46.638 --> 00:24:51.558
I mean, we, for example, have more than 2,000 applications just for seven open positions.
00:24:52.778 --> 00:24:56.638
So the challenge is not to get the applications and to find the talent.
00:24:56.778 --> 00:25:01.718
The challenge is to hire the best talent out of this pool. especially if you
00:25:01.718 --> 00:25:07.618
are competing in a market with US competitors which usually have higher salaries
00:25:07.618 --> 00:25:09.218
than the European counterparts.
00:25:09.698 --> 00:25:12.838
So this really become a very tricky point.
00:25:13.058 --> 00:25:19.898
And if you hire the wrong people, you're not only using obviously money,
00:25:19.898 --> 00:25:25.838
but you're using also a lot of time and a lot of pace.
00:25:25.838 --> 00:25:32.818
And this is really, I would say, the most challenging part of scaling the company
00:25:32.818 --> 00:25:35.498
and especially scaling the company very, very fast.
00:25:36.498 --> 00:25:40.758
Actually, my next question was about hiring, building a strong team.
00:25:40.958 --> 00:25:49.398
I would be curious, what qualities do you look for in hiring those people in order to scale?
00:25:50.138 --> 00:25:56.998
We believe that at the end, attitude and mindset matters the most.
00:25:58.138 --> 00:26:04.858
So basically, if you have a very well-skilled applicant, but he's lazy,
00:26:05.558 --> 00:26:08.658
then this is not a good hire.
00:26:08.798 --> 00:26:13.098
So better hire somebody who really works hard, who wants to achieve something,
00:26:13.258 --> 00:26:18.658
who really leans in, because he can learn most of the things which are necessary.
00:26:19.398 --> 00:26:27.238
And so mindset mindset is super important i would say like the single most important,
00:26:29.497 --> 00:26:37.157
And then obviously culture fit, which also belongs somehow to a kind of mindset, right?
00:26:37.237 --> 00:26:43.697
I mean, if we have a culture where people want to win, and where we want to
00:26:43.697 --> 00:26:47.337
be successful, and we really lean in, and we are very supportive to each other.
00:26:48.017 --> 00:26:53.477
We basically have the motto that when we work hard, we also work with a lot
00:26:53.477 --> 00:27:01.177
of fun. So, this culture map or this culture match obviously needs to be achieved.
00:27:01.637 --> 00:27:10.377
Otherwise, the higher, the new person won't feel comfortable in the environment and also vice versa.
00:27:12.977 --> 00:27:18.017
Interesting. But as we know, culture eats strategy for breakfast. first.
00:27:18.177 --> 00:27:26.377
I was curious because you apparently do have partnerships in Link 11 and what role did they play?
00:27:26.557 --> 00:27:30.957
Because I read that you do have currently in one press release,
00:27:31.097 --> 00:27:34.517
I don't know if it's up to date, 11 locations across the world.
00:27:34.597 --> 00:27:37.977
I do believe that also works with partnerships of some kind.
00:27:38.137 --> 00:27:44.257
And what are the most important ones and how did they work for you in order to help to scale?
00:27:44.837 --> 00:27:51.097
Our partnerships were very long time focused on go-to-market partnerships.
00:27:52.117 --> 00:27:58.457
So as we have developed a great solution, we only had a small amount of workforce
00:27:58.457 --> 00:28:04.437
for selling these solutions and also only limited capabilities in terms of marketing.
00:28:04.737 --> 00:28:12.577
So we have leveraged very, very early already partnerships from a go-to-market perspective.
00:28:13.517 --> 00:28:19.117
So meaning finding organizations, data center providers, hosting companies,
00:28:20.017 --> 00:28:26.677
managed service provider, consultancy organizations who help us with putting
00:28:26.677 --> 00:28:29.797
our technology and our product to the customer base.
00:28:30.457 --> 00:28:39.337
And while this was already the focus since quite a long, We have now also extended
00:28:39.337 --> 00:28:44.017
this focus to look more towards OAM partnerships,
00:28:44.417 --> 00:28:46.357
integrations, tech partnerships,
00:28:46.797 --> 00:28:51.097
to not only leveraging from a go-to-market perspective,
00:28:51.257 --> 00:28:58.257
but also more from a product and strategic perspective, which is obviously a
00:28:58.257 --> 00:29:05.937
different kind of tactic and also very different from each other.
00:29:05.937 --> 00:29:09.897
But we believe if we are successful with these kind of partnerships,
00:29:09.897 --> 00:29:13.017
this would definitely make a huge difference.
00:29:13.017 --> 00:29:21.037
And we also believe that joining forces and achieving something together does
00:29:21.037 --> 00:29:24.237
not only make more fun, but also generates greater outcome.
00:29:25.698 --> 00:29:35.758
I see. We talked about cybersecurity here a lot, and it is definitely an evolving space.
00:29:35.958 --> 00:29:45.698
I would be curious, what kind of trends are you looking for right now in a professional term?
00:29:45.698 --> 00:29:51.458
And on a private level, I do have the tendency to always ask all my guests in
00:29:51.458 --> 00:29:57.858
cybersecurity, on what level is your paranoia for your company and you personally
00:29:57.858 --> 00:29:59.458
in terms of cybersecurity?
00:30:02.438 --> 00:30:06.258
Well, which of both should I answer first?
00:30:08.178 --> 00:30:16.858
Well, let's start with the trends. there are currently three big trends in the cybersecurity space.
00:30:17.958 --> 00:30:23.738
And I mean, the first trend is very much in common with like in all industries.
00:30:23.798 --> 00:30:26.398
And we're speaking about the age of AI.
00:30:27.678 --> 00:30:35.178
So AI does not only make the companies and the workforce more efficient,
00:30:35.178 --> 00:30:40.478
It also makes the criminals and the attackers more efficient.
00:30:41.518 --> 00:30:47.438
So, beside of super complex phishing attacks where you have like emulated video,
00:30:47.858 --> 00:30:55.038
voice, audio, and so on, which is super hard to detect,
00:30:55.038 --> 00:31:01.878
You also have more and more complex AI attacks on network and application layers
00:31:01.878 --> 00:31:04.178
using more sophisticated tactics,
00:31:04.818 --> 00:31:09.698
more human looking traffic and approach than ever before.
00:31:10.078 --> 00:31:13.818
Because I mean, in cybersecurity, it's always a challenge to find out,
00:31:13.958 --> 00:31:18.118
okay, what is legit versus what is like malicious.
00:31:19.038 --> 00:31:24.058
And the more it looks like human traffic, the more difficult it is to identify it.
00:31:24.915 --> 00:31:31.655
So AI definitely changes the game and it also will create a lot of more cyber
00:31:31.655 --> 00:31:34.295
attacks because with like vibe coding and so on.
00:31:34.415 --> 00:31:41.835
And yes, currently many models block such requests, but there are also AIs out
00:31:41.835 --> 00:31:46.055
there which don't block any malicious activity where you can ask an AI to say
00:31:46.055 --> 00:31:48.035
like, hey, please develop me a virus.
00:31:48.255 --> 00:31:54.315
Please develop me an attack, Adidas attack program and application and similar
00:31:54.315 --> 00:31:59.295
things. So this would just basically increase the amount of attacks and also
00:31:59.295 --> 00:32:01.355
increase very much the sophistication of attack.
00:32:01.575 --> 00:32:09.075
So this is trend number one, AI, which makes cyber attacks more serious and more often.
00:32:10.095 --> 00:32:17.475
And then the second trend in cybersecurity is the so-called shift-left approach.
00:32:17.475 --> 00:32:22.295
With shift left approach basically mean that in the past,
00:32:22.475 --> 00:32:27.315
you had like classical development, and then you had like a DevOps team who
00:32:27.315 --> 00:32:32.135
operating the application, and sometimes you had a network team,
00:32:32.135 --> 00:32:35.395
and then you had somewhere at the end, the security team.
00:32:35.875 --> 00:32:40.755
So, which means like, okay, then the security guys need to live with whatever
00:32:40.755 --> 00:32:44.875
they receive from the development and application team and from the operating
00:32:44.875 --> 00:32:50.395
team, and then trying to build the walls around it and fix it and make it secure.
00:32:51.095 --> 00:32:56.515
And the shift left approach is like to put cybersecurity more towards the development
00:32:56.515 --> 00:32:59.775
of the application and like native integrations in the applications.
00:33:01.875 --> 00:33:05.335
And this, at the end, will hopefully lead to,
00:33:06.135 --> 00:33:11.535
I mean, the idea is that this leads to more safer applications and not only
00:33:11.535 --> 00:33:16.035
like patching vulnerabilities, but also avoiding vulnerabilities and creating
00:33:16.035 --> 00:33:17.395
overall and saver environment.
00:33:18.884 --> 00:33:27.304
I hope that the AI applications, which are now generated, also has a nice security
00:33:27.304 --> 00:33:29.104
concept already integrated.
00:33:29.984 --> 00:33:36.844
And the third big trend in cybersecurity is the so-called zero trust trend.
00:33:36.844 --> 00:33:42.904
So zero trust means in cybersecurity, basically,
00:33:43.404 --> 00:33:49.704
that you need to design your architecture,
00:33:49.984 --> 00:33:57.764
your IT architecture in a way that you could not longer trust the other devices
00:33:57.764 --> 00:33:59.144
in your network, for example.
00:33:59.144 --> 00:34:05.164
But also, you are not 100% sure if you could trust the current request and application
00:34:05.164 --> 00:34:08.984
and also the user in front of this application.
00:34:10.864 --> 00:34:15.744
So imagine a very, very simple kind of zero trust initiative.
00:34:16.104 --> 00:34:20.684
Imagine you are in an office and you leave your computer, right?
00:34:20.904 --> 00:34:23.344
Normally, you say like, yeah, no issue. I left my computer.
00:34:23.684 --> 00:34:26.804
What should happen? All of the people here in the building are working for the
00:34:26.804 --> 00:34:31.884
same organization. All of these people here in the building are good humans,
00:34:32.124 --> 00:34:33.544
so nothing could happen.
00:34:34.864 --> 00:34:38.064
But Zero Trust means, for example, also that you think about,
00:34:38.224 --> 00:34:44.264
okay, but what actually one of this person does not only has good things in mind.
00:34:44.444 --> 00:34:50.404
So therefore, you lock your computer when you leave the desktop in your office, even.
00:34:51.544 --> 00:34:54.424
If in the in in the early days right you
00:34:54.424 --> 00:34:57.304
you never thought about okay somebody of your colleagues could
00:34:57.304 --> 00:35:00.344
do some vulnerable things on your computer so this is like the zero
00:35:00.344 --> 00:35:03.404
trust trend and it starts with like the
00:35:03.404 --> 00:35:06.984
user it goes over application it goes over networks so
00:35:06.984 --> 00:35:10.384
also in the past you have typically build these corporate networks by
00:35:10.384 --> 00:35:13.444
by protecting the perimeter and you
00:35:13.444 --> 00:35:16.704
have your DMZ the dematerialized zone
00:35:16.704 --> 00:35:19.744
so everything within the corporate network was
00:35:19.744 --> 00:35:22.604
trustable everything outside of the corporate network was
00:35:22.604 --> 00:35:25.904
not trustable and the zero trust initiative basically
00:35:25.904 --> 00:35:28.984
says like hey also everything within your network don't
00:35:28.984 --> 00:35:32.764
trust them um have have certain
00:35:32.764 --> 00:35:36.184
rules firewalls and so on in place because imagine if.
00:35:36.184 --> 00:35:39.304
One device in the copper network gets hacked for whatever
00:35:39.304 --> 00:35:42.124
reason without like having the zero
00:35:42.124 --> 00:35:45.784
trust approach and like multiple segmentations these
00:35:45.784 --> 00:35:49.384
this initially infection could spread
00:35:49.384 --> 00:35:52.944
across the whole corporate network and in
00:35:52.944 --> 00:35:55.924
the past this was the case and in the past this was also why there
00:35:55.924 --> 00:35:59.024
was huge incidents and huge ransomware attacks and
00:35:59.024 --> 00:36:02.404
large corporates get down for multiple days weeks and
00:36:02.404 --> 00:36:05.544
even months and there was also some companies get bankrupt because of
00:36:05.544 --> 00:36:09.144
that and the zero trust approach basically wants
00:36:09.144 --> 00:36:11.824
to to mitigate all of this and saying like okay if you
00:36:11.824 --> 00:36:14.764
get infected it does not spread around so
00:36:14.764 --> 00:36:17.804
these are the three trends and you have
00:36:17.804 --> 00:36:23.264
also asked me about what is my paranoid level that we have a cyber attack I
00:36:23.264 --> 00:36:29.704
mean we have cyber attack every day on link 11 and we were able to mitigate
00:36:29.704 --> 00:36:35.784
all of them until now and I'm also very optimistic that we are able to mitigate them in the future and.
00:36:37.317 --> 00:36:43.117
Mitigating like hundreds of cyber techs each day. And we also have like all
00:36:43.117 --> 00:36:47.957
of these certifications, ESO, PCI, SOC 2, we are currently working on BCI C5.
00:36:48.177 --> 00:36:52.717
So we really invest a lot obviously as a cybersecurity company in our cybersecurity.
00:36:54.397 --> 00:37:00.577
So my Paranite level is quite high in terms of, otherwise we would not invest
00:37:00.577 --> 00:37:03.117
that much and would not put that much effort into it.
00:37:03.117 --> 00:37:10.697
But my saying, my really concerns that we have an issue are quite low because
00:37:10.697 --> 00:37:13.297
I know that we are very well protected.
00:37:13.677 --> 00:37:18.577
That's pretty good that you guys are well protected. And I was wondering with
00:37:18.577 --> 00:37:24.417
those cyber attacks on Link 11, if your opponents are not only training you
00:37:24.417 --> 00:37:27.377
to be better, but that's a different topic.
00:37:28.657 --> 00:37:31.737
I've seen a lot of interesting case studies.
00:37:32.377 --> 00:37:39.277
What are you protecting here? For example, what I found pretty impressive is Fraport,
00:37:40.177 --> 00:37:45.497
one of Europe's busiest airports, as well as Deutsche Flugssicherung,
00:37:45.737 --> 00:37:52.317
which is the air navigation service provider that makes sure all flight movements,
00:37:52.497 --> 00:37:55.497
all plane movements are secure in the German airspace.
00:37:55.497 --> 00:38:01.757
So, can you share some particularly challenging cases and how you handle them
00:38:01.757 --> 00:38:03.797
to provide cybersecurity for such places?
00:38:04.057 --> 00:38:09.457
Critical aspects of cyber attacks is always the time.
00:38:11.037 --> 00:38:15.917
So, because cyber attacks, usually the damage the cyber attacks could cause
00:38:15.917 --> 00:38:22.517
is, or close, with the time the cyber attacks exist.
00:38:22.517 --> 00:38:31.537
So therefore it's very very important to act super fast and reducing with that
00:38:31.537 --> 00:38:40.377
fast response also the potential impact of a cyber attack so a quite common case is if it.
00:38:41.282 --> 00:38:45.782
If there is a cyber attack with somebody who has not yet implemented any protection
00:38:45.782 --> 00:38:50.242
yet, it's really like an emergency case.
00:38:50.502 --> 00:38:54.522
So you need to imagine the company is offline.
00:38:54.762 --> 00:38:59.562
They have invested millions in operating the business and then suddenly everything stands still.
00:38:59.802 --> 00:39:04.722
They lose tons of money every minute this situation continues.
00:39:05.342 --> 00:39:09.282
They don't have visibility of the business, their customers can't reach them,
00:39:09.422 --> 00:39:17.162
they are maybe facing some damage claims because of non-availability and service interruption.
00:39:17.442 --> 00:39:22.362
So this is a serious situation and these incidents,
00:39:22.902 --> 00:39:32.262
these actual cyber attacks, this is always a particularly challenge,
00:39:32.262 --> 00:39:35.022
not only for the company, but also for us.
00:39:35.022 --> 00:39:39.902
And we have playbooks to handle the situation when customers call our emergency hotline.
00:39:40.022 --> 00:39:43.622
It's really like the, it's like the firefighters. You call 110,
00:39:44.062 --> 00:39:46.322
hey, link 11 here, what happened?
00:39:46.542 --> 00:39:50.342
And then we get the information, what actually happened. Then we say like,
00:39:50.422 --> 00:39:52.902
okay, look, this is our playbook. This is how we act.
00:39:53.122 --> 00:39:56.942
We need to, I mean, we also need to sometimes calm down the.
00:39:59.662 --> 00:40:02.682
How to say, to relax the people on the other side
00:40:02.682 --> 00:40:05.582
because I mean for us it's kind of daily
00:40:05.582 --> 00:40:08.522
business I mean luckily not every day we have
00:40:08.522 --> 00:40:12.182
these emergency situations from unprotected customers
00:40:12.182 --> 00:40:17.182
but we are used to it but for the other side it's like a new experience obviously
00:40:17.182 --> 00:40:23.282
and yeah this is always interesting situation and it reminds you really like
00:40:23.282 --> 00:40:29.362
the firefighters so hey this is the playbook this is how we solve the situation,
00:40:31.502 --> 00:40:34.902
and this is how we can help them.
00:40:35.082 --> 00:40:39.222
Hey guys, thanks for sticking around. The interview with Jens is actually so
00:40:39.222 --> 00:40:44.342
extensive and running so well that we decided to split this into two parts and
00:40:44.342 --> 00:40:48.202
we'll be back with recording number two pretty soon.
00:40:48.522 --> 00:40:49.662
Thank you very much.
00:40:49.842 --> 00:40:52.062
Thank you for sticking around and talk to you soon.
00:40:52.402 --> 00:40:53.162
Talk to you soon.
00:40:57.462 --> 00:41:07.382
That's all folks find more news streams events and interviews at www.startuprad.io
00:41:07.382 --> 00:41:09.902
remember sharing is caring
00:41:10.640 --> 00:41:23.467
