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You're listening to the Support Ed Learning Podcast, where we challenge the status quo of education and reimagine what learning should be.
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I'm Dr.
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Joe Sebastian, and in every episode we dive into critical thinking, Bloom's Taxonomy, educational innovation, and how AI is shaping the future of learning.
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Whether you're a teacher, parent, policymaker, or lifelong learner, you're in the right place to rethink, reshape, and revive education.
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So, in a world where most colleges are going test optional, my guest today says the SAT and ACT are more important than ever.
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And he's got the data to prove it.
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He sits on the board of the National Test Prep Association.
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He runs two testing, two tutoring centers, excuse me, with 400 students.
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And he turned down a job with the CIA to do this.
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So we're going to get into it today.
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Again, welcome back to the Supported Learning Podcast.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Joe Sebastian.
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Families often ask me how to navigate the maze of college prep without wasting thousands of dollars or spending hours and hours of time.
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And it usually involves finding the people who figured out the rules of the game that schools aren't telling you.
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That's why I'm thrilled to have David Blowbaum here today.
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David is the co-founder of Summit Prep, a board member and director of outreach for the National Test Prep Association, a University of Chicago honors grad, and one of the most vocal advocates for why standardized testing is actually good for students.
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David, welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Appreciate your time, fellow test prep company owner as well.
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So I, you know, I know I sent you over questions and we we have like a whole formal process, but I ask this now.
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This is my third University of Chicago guest on the podcast.
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So I have to ask, why does fun go to die there?
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So I hear it has changed.
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Um, but I mean, honestly, I it lived up to its name while I was there.
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Hate to say it.
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I mean, not that it wasn't fun, but visiting my friends at every other university, it did appear they had more fun than we were having.
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University of Chicago at least was and probably still is a great education.
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And it's a great education because they are exceedingly rigorous.
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I mean, they don't really cut you any slack.
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There were finals weeks where I had a hundred pages in papers due, you know, uh taking five classes or four classes and 25-page papers due in all four of them.
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And they're due in a week.
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It was intense, but it was worth it.
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Right.
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Well, I appreciate your time.
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Um, before we kind of get into this whole thing, I have to ask about the CIA story.
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Well, as people that are actually in the CIA will say it's just called CIA.
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But but how does how do we get to where you are from that?
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Yes.
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So I graduated in 2010 from University of Chicago.
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Really did not know what I wanted to do.
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Um, among the many places that I applied to, I applied to the CIA.
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And I was fortunate enough to get a conditional offer of employment to be a leadership analyst focused on Pakistan.
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But the long scope background check takes about nine to 12 months.
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So I needed something to do in the interim.
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Um, so just to avoid poverty, that's how I got into part-time tutoring, which very quickly became full-time tutoring.
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And it actually would have been a 50% pay cut at that point for me to go work for the CIA.
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So, you know, I just continued, I withdrew my offer of employment and continue full-time with test prep.
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And I mean, I I'm so glad that I did and I had the opportunity and it worked out.
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So you turned down the opportunity to be Jack Ryan.
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That's what I'm hearing.
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It was in a it was an overt position.
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So technically you could tell, you know, your family, um, it's not quite Jack Ryan, but yes, I mean, it it would have been awesome nonetheless, I'm sure.
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Well, you would have been you would have been an analyst, right?
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He was an analyst, he was an analyst too, then he just got activated.
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So okay.
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I guess that's true.
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You uh well you because you actually graduated the same time I did.
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So you've basically been in the test prep game as long as I've been in education, which again, kudos to you for building uh, you know, two awesome testing centers and for the for making it through the uh the growth phase of the business, but the lasting power that you have.
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So I uh you started off doing test prep.
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When um when did you realize you had something more in terms of the the summit prep?
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Was it 2013?
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Like what you you got a co-founder as well, and I've heard you've been turned down by over 40 places looking for office space.
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What was that experience all like?
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So I mean, it was like most companies, it's rough in the beginning.
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And I think the smaller your company is, the rougher it is.
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I mean, people who have when people are just it's just them, sometimes they think, oh, well, I could never handle a much larger company.
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I think handling a larger company is so much easier because you can delegate and it's not all on you, and you have a team behind you.
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So, really, we were absolutely bootstrapping in those first two years.
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And I the company was just basically on the verge of going out of business for the first two years.
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But, you know, after that, we made a good investment in high quality admins, and they really helped us take it to the next level.
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So we had a great team of tutors.
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We've already had very high quality tutoring, but we didn't understand when we opened the company how important that support structure was for the tutors and the company as a whole and the service to clients.
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So it's really um, well, I mean, really, we didn't hit our stride until 2018, to be honest.
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So it's really like five years where it was terrifying to rough.
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Um, but in retrospect, you know, it you either sink or swim.
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And if you don't sink, you become a good swimmer.
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So it was, it was great practice.
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Yeah, it's kind of like, well, it's like then how they train you for the Navy.
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My grandfather used to, that's why I hate it.
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That's why really anti-Parl Harbor, the new movie with the Michael Bay one where the Navy, like the ships sinking, and they're like, I can't swim.
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And it's like my grandpa's like, the first thing they did when the Navy, they threw you in the water.
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They're like, you're either swimming or you're drowning.
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It's like you learn really quick.
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Yeah, I mean, it's it's definitely gonna be hard.
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And you're it sounds like your story is like you're brick and mortar, too.
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So you have the added stress of like making those payments too, right?
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The overhead.
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Yes.
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I mean, I don't find it particularly stressful because about 50% of our students are very adamant that they want in person.
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So it's a pretty easy decision.
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You know, we'd probably see our revenue be cut in half if we didn't have the brick and mortar.
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Um, but yes, to your point, seeing writing those checks uh is can be can be tough.
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Yeah.
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No, I mean, I just admit, I mean, in terms of like, you know, I'm a little bit earlier in the game of business as you saw.
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I I relate to the stress, but you said you got you hit your stride in 2018, and then a couple years later, COVID happened.
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So how do you how did you adjust towards that?
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Yeah, it was interesting how people adjusted to COVID.
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So for us, in the first year of COVID, we grew a ton, which was very counterintuitive because that's when literally, well, almost, almost literally every college in the country went test optional uh that year.
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But what we found, and it's kind of like an interesting business case of what people think are competitors to their product or um just why people are using their product, we found that the biggest competitor to test prep was a student's sports and extracurricular activities.
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So those were totally wiped out.
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People weren't, you know, students were stuck at home.
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They weren't going to their extracurriculars, they weren't, you know, doing those sports.
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So their parents were just really packing their schedule with extra tutoring to get an advantage while everyone else was, and just to get that supplemental education that those parents recognized those kids needed.
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So we grew quite heavily in 2020, surprisingly.
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So you mentioned test optional.
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A lot of schools went test optional, and now that is going away really, really fast.
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And I think where we have outdated beliefs, like a lot of times the the changes, the policies change before the practices catch up to it.
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Where are we in terms of test optional with the SAT and the ACT right now?
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So the vast majority of colleges are quote-unquote test optional.
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They're on some location of the spectrum of what test optional really means.
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So you do have the very highly selective schools, most of the Ivy League, except for Columbia, has gone back to requiring test scores for admissions.
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And then you have some other schools, mostly in the South, that have also gone back to requiring test scores.
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The rest of the schools in the country, probably 95% of them, they're again quote unquote test optional.
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So if it's a highly selective institution, let's say it's Vanderbilt, well, they're not really test optional, right?
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And these very highly selective institutions where they're denying, you know, 80%, 90%, sometimes 95% of applicants, they have to make some really hard cuts on student A or student B.
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That's particularly when they use test scores.
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And they're using test scores even more because grades are so inflated and they don't trust grades.
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So for those highly selectives, they're either test required or not really test optional.
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The more you go down the rankings, schools do become more, more truly test optional for applying.
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But I want to be specific about at that point, the school is not the most desirous institution necessarily, at least on the number of students that are applying and their admit rates.
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So those schools that have those lower admit rates, well, guess what?
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You might not need a test score to get in.
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But if you have a good test score, you're almost definitely going to get a merit scholarship or merit aid because they want to boost their rankings with good test scores.
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So test scores, they're either going to help you get in to a better college or they're going to help you afford college.
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And you could even trade going to a really prestigious school to going to a lesser-ranked school and probably get a ton of money from that school.
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Yeah, we uh obviously we have we serve similar clientele base.
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And so we, you know, we we've helped kids with college missions.
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We primarily help kids with APs.
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And that is that conversation.
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There's so much misinformation out there, and that parents think they're all their kids are going to Ivy Leagues.
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And like, listen, if all the Ivy Leagues all they did was accept Val Victorians, there still wouldn't be enough seats at these Ivy League schools.
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And, you know, and we could include University of Chicago and Stanford into that.
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And so they're looking for diverse sets of students, but just that that next tier down, there's so much more money there.
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Like when you took when you bring in the merit scholarships that you can get from standardized testing.
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It's just so loot, it's just so much more powerful when you're making those financial decisions.
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It's funny because uh the Stanford, um, Stanford not only went non-test optional for SAT, they're also APs now required.
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If you have an AP on your on your transcript, you have to submit scores.
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And that's this year, 2025, 2026, use Chicago is next.
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They're gonna, they're gonna, they're they're changing their policy too.
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What um on AP exams or on SAT A?
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Sorry, on the AP exams.
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Interesting.
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I had not heard that.
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I mean, you're very well informed.
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I mean, almost no one knows that Stanford and Caltech went to AP exam required last year.
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So you're very well informed.
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But I did not know that about University of Chicago.
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Well, yeah, so this is what I'm so you mentioned grade inflation.
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So like it's never I didn't even know 4.5 GPA was a thing until I started tutoring kids.
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Like every like so grades are super inflated.
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And that's like, but so what happens is, and I, you know, I've been in the affluent schools, high schools, I'm talking about, is that kids will take a bunch of AP courses and then not sit for the exams.
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So they have they get the weight, they get they get the the prestige of it on the transcripts and they get to say they took a bunch of AP classes, but they don't they don't actually challenge themselves on the AP exams or don't do it.
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And it's like the worst thing you could ever do.
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But it's you know, in their mind, it's it is and so Stanford's like, we know the game, you know, and now it's put so much pressure, I'm sure, on you as well, or just in your field, like now to get top 10, you have you're talking 1500s now.
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There's like no question about it in terms of where they fall.
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Absolutely.
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So, how has that changed?
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I mean, what my essay, I guarantee you my SAT was lower than yours, but what was your SAT to get into you in Chicago versus what it is now?
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So I took the ACT to go to the University of Chicago.
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Um, I was really fortunate.
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I mean, I got a 33 on the ACT, which is a good score.
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It's a top 2% score, but it's it's like, you know, it wouldn't get you in today.
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Uh it would really wouldn't even get you in when I applied uh in 2006.
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Um, I did a interview at the University of Chicago, though, and the admissions rep, I mean, I'm blessed that whatever he saw in me, he told me at the end, he's like, yeah, you're gonna, I mean, this is when they still did snail mail.
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So he said, you're gonna get the thick packet in the mail.
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That was those were his last words to me.
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So I knew I was in and I didn't retake the ACT and the rest was history.
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Yeah, that's awesome.
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Like, look at the common data sets now and that, like, yeah, maybe like a 1530.
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It's like you're, you know, just to scratch the surface, you basically we're talking mid-1500s.
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Yeah, you literally to get looked like properly looked at, yes, I would say 1530 is really the cutoff to get your application sufficiently read at one of those top 10 schools.
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Really, you're probably looking at 1570 if you really want to get into a top 10 school.
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At least as an, you know, academic admit, not you know, not a recruited athlete or something.
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Right, right, right, right.
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So you say SAT, ACT, standardized tests are actually good for students in an age where we've let kids kind of do whatever they want.
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Why why are standardized testing, why is that good for kids?
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So I think when and the University of California, San Diego recently came out with a report just at the uh end of 2025, and it pretty much provided all the data that um I had been saying was there, but didn't have the full data set.
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And the beauty of this report is it showed that um in the last four years, the percentage of uh University of UCSD, University of California San Diego students who are testing into remedial math went from 1% up to 12%.
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So 12 out as many of them are testing into remedial math.
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And again, UCSD went test blind.
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So they don't use the SAT or ACT scores and admissions.
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So they're admitting 12 times as many students who need remedial math.
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They weren't ready for college-level math.
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But not only that, those students, the school had to make a new remedial math course for them because it used to be just high school remedial math.
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They found that 75% of those students testing in remedial math, they didn't know elementary or middle school math.
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So, and of those students who didn't know elementary or middle school math but were going into college, a quarter of them had perfect 4.0 GPAs in math in high school.
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So they were getting four point, you know, A's in pre-calculus and calculus matriculating into UCSD, and they didn't know elementary middle school math.
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So we were not getting accurate signals from grades.
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They're just completely inflated.
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And that leads to mismatching, which people might say, who cares?
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Okay, now they're into UCSD.
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That's that's to their benefit.
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No, the report showed that those students are likely to progress through their major, let's say biology or particularly engineering.
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About them in biology will have to switch out of biology because they can't pass that last math class.
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And the report could not find one student who went to remedial math who was able to graduate as an engineering major.
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And so we're setting these kids up who want to be biologists or engineers, and we're setting them up for failure because we're mismatching them to the wrong schools and the wrong majors.
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It's not so much that they're going to drop out, that's a misconception, it's that they're going to train, they're going to switch into easier majors.
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And then they likely burned up one, maybe two years of classes in a major, couldn't finish in it.
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So now they're taking five years, six years or more to finish their degree.
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That's delaying their earnings, that's increasing their student loan debts.
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And it's really to their detriment.
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We could just use, I mean, I think we should use all available relevant information.
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The SAT and ACT help predict who will succeed in a given college and a given major.
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That's why I say that it's good for students.
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00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:30.240
So I'm trying to think of how I asked.
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So I guess here here's my perspective from inside the schools.
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I think it is the natural progression of education systematically of us passing the buck of not holding the line.
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So when I was in the classroom teaching IB history, my colleague and I, like everyone has to draw metaphorical lines in the sand.
00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:17.119
For us, because the nature of the IB curriculum, and they had to do an internal assessment, and we're like, look, if they our pass rate originally was 20%, it went up to a 90% by us just implementing two things that we like were consistent: a common framework for writing, where like you are not leaving our class unless you actually know how to write a well-structured essay with like our like almost research level paragraphs.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.480
And two, actually, how to properly cite your sources.
00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:24.960
Very, very basic things, but so easy to just be like, whatever.
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:28.079
Not, and so like it's kind of like our hills to die on.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:45.920
And I just think that education proverbally has punted the hills to die on, in that you have kids that have been told they're awesome their whole life, that are in these high advanced classes, AP, IB, college, and the high school, and no one wants to ding their grades.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.400
No one actually wants to like see, like a C is like unheard of.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:55.359
Like I get kids, parents come to me with like the B's and they're panicking, you know?
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.480
And it's like they're perfect GPA, they're perfect GPA.
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.200
It's all they're all it's like so much more pressure now.
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:09.279
I'm not trying to give anyone any off the hook here in terms of like, but like it's just we're just not holding the line academically.
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:17.200
And so you have that level of inflated GPA for grade promotion, and that more kids are more educated, but no less.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.440
If they don't know, they don't critical thinkers.
00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:26.720
And now you're what you're citing is exactly where kids are going to college, not being able to do math, and they're dropping out of engineering programs.
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.559
So it's this like silent academic epidemic that we have.
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:38.240
And I don't know how we fix it without you know, without the competitiveness kind of taking down a notch.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:43.519
I mean, you've nailed it according to NAEP scores, so that's the nation's report card.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:47.839
And they they measure students at fourth grade, eighth grade, and twelfth grade.
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.079
Um, on all those measures were at record lows.
00:20:50.240 --> 00:21:02.079
So for 12th graders, it's only 35% of students, of 12th grade students, are proficient in reading, and only 22% are proficient in math.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:06.720
The historic lows since this started being measured, which is a little over 30 years ago.
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:06.960
Right.
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:08.640
And yet grades are higher than ever.
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:13.039
It's now 80, this is according to UCLA's higher education research institute.
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:20.400
It's now 84% of students who go on to a four-year BA granting university had an A average in high school.
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:26.319
So basically every, so grades are higher than ever, standardized measures of academic achievement are lower than ever.
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:37.680
And when you Gallup did a poll of what percentage of parents believe that their kids are at or above grade level, it's 90% of parents believe that their kids are at or above grade level.
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:40.799
And so to me, that is just robbing kids.
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:44.559
It's robbing parents of the information and robbing kids of their futures.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:59.440
Because we also know from the data that when parents know that their kids are struggling academically, when they know that their kids are below grade level, most parents intervene and help get their kids help uh in school.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:06.319
But when they they're when they're getting grades back that are all A's, maybe some B's, they think their kids are fine.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:11.039
And they don't find out that their kids are fine usually until they take an SAT or ACT.
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:11.599
Right.
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.680
And that's when they but then they don't trust the SAT or ACT.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:19.039
They come in and they say, look, my kid has a 4.3 GPA.
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:20.559
He's just bad at that testing.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:22.400
He's bad at the SAT and ACT.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:23.599
It's like he's not.
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:24.480
Yeah, exactly.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:29.279
It's like, you know, a small percentage of kids actually are bad at test taking, right?
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.960
The vast majority of them are not.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:38.240
The vast majority of them, it's accurately measuring their grammar abilities, their rhetorical skills, mathematics, reading comprehension.
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:50.079
And so I totally understand from a parent's perspective why the vast majority of them think their kids are at or above grade level, because just about that same percentage have an A average.
00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:52.640
So it's a, and to your point, how do you fix it?
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:59.920
I mean, you could go back to grading on a curve where, you know, only 20% of kids get an A becomes very competitive.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:01.440
It would solve the problem, though.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:08.160
Another thing you could do is include a student's standardized measures in that class on their grade.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:14.319
So yeah, the grade might say A, but by standardized state measures, they might be at the 30th percentile.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:19.039
Now the parent has extra information to better understand what that A means.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:20.559
It doesn't mean much.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:25.680
So walk us through what you guys do at Summit Preps.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:26.960
What's your methodology?
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:29.759
And when a new student comes to you, what happens?
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:31.200
What's the process?
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:32.160
Yeah.
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:37.279
So our method, I mean, I am really obsessive about teacher quality.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.400
And so we source the highest quality tutors.
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:46.000
We provide them 160 hours of training just on the SAT and ACT, I think is the most in the country.
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:51.200
And then all of our curriculum, rigorously sourced, um, all evidence-based.
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:58.880
And I take the test myself, both the SAT and ACT, just to make sure that everything in our curriculum and how we're teaching it is tailored to the test.
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:09.599
When a student then comes in, we like, although not all families follow this, we like for them to take a full-length SAT and a full-length ACT, see which test they do better on.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.640
Now, it's not just which score is higher.
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:17.039
It also depends where you which section scores are higher on the given exams.
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:25.519
Overall, the ACT, because it's an achievement test, not an aptitude test, it's a little bit easier to prep for and get student scores up.
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:32.000
But still, we like to go from those official test scores to figure out which test is better for students.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:39.920
And we're one of only about 50 companies in the world that has a license to use ACT's official content.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:46.160
So we're using that official content to diagnose what test is better for students and where are their weaknesses.
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:51.599
What is the biggest mistake families make when approaching the tests for either one?
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:55.359
Thinking that tips and tricks are going to get the job done.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:00.400
So if tips and tricks got the job done, everybody would have really high scores.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:01.279
It would be easy.
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:05.519
Well, if it was easy, everybody would have high scores and you'd need even higher scores.
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:16.720
So yeah, the the big box test prep companies, they try and tell you that the SAT and ACT only measure how you can take the SAT and ACT and that you can do tips and tricks.
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:19.680
You can get a little bit from tips and tricks, a little bit.
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:29.359
But if you're really, really going to significantly improve your score, you have to significantly improve and your knowledge and skill on all these core areas.
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:31.920
And they're not random core areas.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:38.559
They're the areas that the SAT and ACT have done the research on that predict success in college.
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:44.000
So that's why Opportunity Insights is the largest, uh, the most recent large-scale study.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.960
They looked at IV and IV Plus uh institutions.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:55.920
They found SAT and ACT scores were 3.9 times more predictive than a student's high school grades at how they're going to uh perform in college.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:05.200
Well, the reason they're 3.9 times more predictive is because they're measuring the core concepts and knowledge that students need to actually succeed in college.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:09.680
So there's no shortcut if you substantially want to improve.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:15.279
And these concepts and skills are very important if you actually want to succeed in college, which is the whole point.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:22.319
The whole point is not to get into college, it's to succeed in college and get out and achieve success in life.
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.559
Yeah, that's that's actually really well put.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:27.759
I've had so many conversations.
00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:30.319
Uh, first off, I love the tips and tricks thing.
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:38.079
Because like, you know, where I where I think we can align on is we align on a couple of places, but college emissions.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:48.240
Uh and we'll get into like test prep regulations here in a second, but you because what you just said in terms of some of the marketing gimmicks out there of tips and tricks, right?
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:53.359
And that in the in the college coaching space, that is also true.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:58.960
That you just need a passion project, you just need an internship, you just need a research paper.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.240
What was your passion project to get into you Chicago, David?
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:02.880
Right?
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:11.599
So, like, and that, and it's like, no, you you actually need a really good academic profile.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:18.640
And it's like, if we're like, if you're saying you want, and and I'm gonna double on this for a second.
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:25.519
If you're saying you want to go into a top 10 school, minimum GPA, 3-7 unweighted, minimum.
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:36.799
Your SAT score has to be phenomenal, and you have to have fours and fives on your APs outside, like we're not that's like foundational one, and that college companies don't support the academic growth.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:45.039
You still have to hire tutors, but like, oh yeah, you're your three-one's fine, your three four is fine, you'll get in, we'll just give you a passion project.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:50.640
So, like, it comes to that authenticity, but then also what else did you say?
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.640
Those tips and tricks really double down in terms of there's not, it's not a secret.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.640
It's really not, you have to put the work in.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.279
You have to actually go through the process, you have to get the feedback.
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:02.880
And I think that's we're just such an instant gratification society.
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:05.039
We're like, it's gotta be an easier way.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:06.799
There's gotta be a hack here, right?
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:11.039
And you're so you're saying that's not, that's not, there isn't.
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:12.799
Exactly.
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:25.519
I mean, I the the SAT and ACT are the shortest college admissions exams of any of the most economically developed countries in the world.
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:31.759
So you look at other countries and most of their college admissions exams are eight hours long.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:37.599
Or, you know, I mean, you you look at the UK and they do A-level exams, which kind of like AP exams.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:43.839
And I mean, you might be taking 16 hours of A-level exams, maybe 24 hours of A-level exams.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:49.920
And we're complaining about what is basically a two-hour exam at this point, even though it's the shortest.
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:51.759
So you're exactly right.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:55.119
We're always trying to, and it is it's tough.
00:28:55.200 --> 00:29:03.519
The SAT and HTTP are in a bind because they're they're they're catering to a consumer culture that wants it to be as fast as possible.
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:08.960
But the problem is, is the knowledge acquisition is not fast.
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:11.519
It takes a lot of work.
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.759
So I'm I've had students go up 10 or more points.
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:22.079
My lat, my um, last year, the student of mine who went up the most went up 14 points.
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.839
She went up from a 20 on the ACT to a 34.
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:34.799
The amount of pain and suffering that she had to go through to get to that is is something that 99% of people would not do.
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:41.440
It was a remarkable increase, but it took remarkable, a stunning amount of work.
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:45.119
So, yeah, if if it was easy, everybody would do it.
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.079
And and that's how we should know that that is not easy.
00:29:48.160 --> 00:30:03.519
Um, and really the the marketing from test prep companies that it's tips and tricks that has really stuck in the American mind and eroded trust in standardized measures that is really just false.
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:08.079
Um, and and the marketing preys on people's skepticism and quite frankly, their ignorance.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:12.480
Well, I think it goes back to what you said earlier, two things you said earlier.
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:30.240
My second point was gonna be what the why of like my first question, usually to kids who come to us either for AP prep college emissions or anything in between, and they say they want to go to a Harvard, they want to go to Stanford, they want to go like a why?
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:35.759
Why, like, because you said staying in college and finishing college.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:41.839
I think most families, the way they approach college emissions is the the finish line is getting in, and it's not.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:50.400
It's like, and so like if you're if you're mindset my kid to get into Harvard and everything in life will work out for them.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:31:01.599
And it's like, actually, it won't because they're looking for who's gonna represent the brand of Harvard tremendously and know they can get through and go on to do great things.
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:04.799
So, therefore, your why should be bigger than just getting into a school.
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:06.799
It should be like what your purpose is.
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:08.799
Why do you need Harvard to do that?
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:09.359
Right.
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:10.960
Like that's what we usually say.
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:18.720
And that it sounds like we're kind of like talking about the same things, just in different aspects, is that the goalpost should be a lot further.
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.480
It should be actually graduating through that Ivy League school, not just getting it.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:24.000
Yes.
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:36.480
And to be honest, I would even set the I would also set the goalpost to success in life because I I do think that, and I I see this from personal experience actually, because we interview a lot of people for tutoring positions.
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:45.440
And the the people who didn't work out last year as tutors at my company graduate from Brown, graduate from Columbia, and graduate from Duke.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:51.839
And those were the only people that didn't work out, are like top, top, you know, graduated from the fancy university.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:00.240
And the reason that they didn't is because they were really unhappy in life, because they thought that the goalpost was getting in, and then they thought the goalpost was graduating.
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:03.519
Well, I have, you know, I graduated from Duke.
00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:06.799
Like, and they think that they can just coast on that.
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:08.079
And that's not reality.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:18.240
Whereas those really smart students who graduated from a state school, they're hungry and they're out to prove themselves.
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:23.759
And they hustle and they end up on average being better tutors, actually.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:30.720
So, yeah, I mean, it's all these expectations around college and putting so much emphasis on the name.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:38.079
I'm I mean, the name can help, especially if you're a disadvantaged student and you go to one of those top schools, the data is clear that on average it really helps you.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:46.880
But if you're already one of those privileged students, if it might be a disadvantage to go to one of those top schools if you're going to get a sense of entitlement from it.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:47.359
Right.
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:52.240
So you've done about 70 plus media appearances talking about testing and emissions.
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.279
What's the one thing you wish every family understood about the college admissions process?
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:02.720
And then we've talked a little bit about it, but what do you think one thing that all families should know?
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:07.200
Actually, that would be it, is it's about success in life.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:18.240
And so that's what people should be perpetually focused on is the actual end goal, not these intermediary goals that they get confused for end goals.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:26.559
So I've never talked, I literally, I've literally never talked to a former student of mine who was unhappy with where they went to college.
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.000
It hasn't happened once.
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:28.480
Right.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:33.359
They're generally just happy with, you know, and I mean some kids transfer and things like that.
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:38.240
But on the whole, that's not what they're focused on afterwards.
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:42.880
And um, I mean, life is about so much more than where you went to college.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:55.200
So I would say focus on being a good a good person, focus on working hard, focus on, you know, gaining those um academic and personal attributes that are gonna succe set you up for success in life.
00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:59.279
And then wherever you end up in college, do your best, work hard.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:02.400
Wherever you end up in that first job, do your best, work hard.
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:04.880
Those are the keys to success is hard work.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:11.519
So do you um what I'm gonna say?
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:12.320
Apologize.
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:12.880
Oh, yeah.
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:20.000
So so for families who think that, you know, expensive test preps only for wealthy families, what is your message to them?
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:29.199
Of, you know, I can't, I can't afford any type of prep, but I want my kid to do good, or expensive prep only favors the wealthy.
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.280
Well, how would you push back against that?
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:35.679
I mean, expensive prep certainly favors the wealthy, right?
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:43.519
Um, and so I I would I would there it's twofold, would be my reply.
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:52.159
Um, one would be saying, yeah, there is an advantage because the wealthy tend to have better access to a quality education.
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:56.400
And it is, it is better access to a quality education.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:02.639
And the SAT and ACT, they're not measuring wealth, they're measuring the quality of your education.
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:08.239
They're not perfect, but they're they're they're quite good measures of academic preparedness.
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:21.760
But what we also see is just having access to a high quality of education is absolutely not a guarantee that that student will end up knowing that knowledge and having those skills.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:31.760
Because you could give everybody a free access to a great trainer at a gym, how many people are going to show up and really put the work in and work hard?
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:32.960
Not most of us.
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:35.760
And that's exactly what we see in the data.
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:48.719
So of the top point, the 0.1% income earners in the United States, so the the wealthiest of the wealthy, 7% of their kids get a top 1% score.
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:58.480
So that is seven times higher than we would think, but that means 93% of them do not get a top 1% score.
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:01.599
So it's not that you can just pay for a top score.
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:11.280
No matter what, you had to put the time and the effort into getting that top one 1% score, which then broadens it out.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:13.119
So, yes, there's an advantage to wealth.
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:16.480
So then we broaden it out to okay, well, they had to put the time in.
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:19.039
They had to learn it, they had to gain those knowledge and skills.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:20.639
Can any student do that?
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:25.280
Yes, because it's not hidden knowledge and skill.
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:27.280
It just takes a long time.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:30.639
And you might have to learn it yourself, but you can learn it yourself.
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:33.760
There's Khan Academy online that's free.
00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:35.599
There are inexpensive prep books.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:36.880
There's uh, what is it called?
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.079
I'm blanking on the name.
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:42.559
There's free tutoring services online these days as well from other high school students.
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:45.599
So there are tons of resources out there.
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:53.760
Hungry, disadvantaged students can give themselves a huge advantage even over the wealthy if they're able to work hard and put the time in.
00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:58.239
Because even the wealthiest kids, they don't usually put the time in and work that hard.
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:04.960
Um, and and the last thing that I would say about that is the college admissions process heavily favors the wealthy.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.079
We know that the wealthy have more access to extracurricular activities.
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:12.559
Their essays tend to be better, their teacher recommendations tend to be longer, higher quality.
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:18.159
Um, they're more likely to be a legacy, they're more likely to be recruited for an Ivy League sport, on and on and on.
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:22.559
All the things I just mentioned, they don't help predict success in college.
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:27.599
And even though they don't help predict success in college, the wealthy have an advantage on them.
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:46.400
So the place, and this is borne out by the data, the opportunity insights 2023, um the the vast majority of the, well, really essentially all of the unfair advantage that the wealthy have come from the non-academic factors.
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:50.239
Whereas SAT and ECT scores, they're predictive of success.
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:55.440
And any student can technically learn and gain the knowledge and skills to do well on them.
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:57.519
Well said.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:01.039
So let's let's finish out here with uh lightning round.
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:04.159
So just rapid fire questions, first thing that comes to mind.
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:05.119
Sound good?
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:06.719
Sound good.
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:07.360
All right.
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:10.880
One resource every family should use during test prep.
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.480
The official SAT and official ACT.
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:20.400
So there's the blue book exams online for the official mock SATs.
00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:25.840
I would say do not use third-party tests unless you've run out of those eight tests online.
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:30.559
For the ACT, there's also three official ACTs online.
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:39.199
Use those before you use any uh third-party test, which is probably not that accurate and will not give you a very accurate score.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:43.360
Worst advice you hear families getting about standardized testing.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.679
You gotta go back to tips and tricks.
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:46.800
So worst advice.
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:55.679
If you hear, you know, hey, we give your kid all the tips and tricks, I would say almost definitely run if that's what they're gonna lead with.
00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:59.599
One thing parents overthink about college emissions.
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:01.599
Everything.
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:07.840
So like I like literally, I think they they overanalyze everything.
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:13.280
I think they overanalyze test scores, the essays, I mean, literally everything we've talked about, right?
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:16.159
I mean, I I think we get so, so rapid.
00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:24.079
I guess the overanalyzing the name that's on um the name, the the the brand name of the of the school.
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:35.760
If your kid goes to the flagship public university in their state and works hard, they're set up almost as well, usually, as if they went to an IB league.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:37.519
I gotcha.
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:39.599
Especially if they go to an honors college.
00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:40.480
Sure.
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:45.760
What uh one thing, well, most underrated factor in a college application?
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:52.079
Say the additional information section at the end of the common app.
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:57.119
So, you know, if a student, you don't want to have any question marks on your application.
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:08.800
So if there's a C or something on there, or there's just something that will not make sense to the college admissions officer, use that additional information section to give further explanation.
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:13.039
So ideally, there are no question marks to the college admissions officer.
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:17.360
Don't assume that they're going to fill in the gap or fill it in uh accurately.
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:21.519
And then what's the next big shift in testing?
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:26.960
It's actually what you, in my opinion, you nailed it when you talked about AP exams.
00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:36.639
So you look even six years ago, and schools were really not using AP exams that much for the admissions decisions.
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:45.679
You could get course credit from them, but they're really now fulfilling a role that actually SAT subject tests, they were discontinued in 2021.
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:47.599
So most people don't even know what those are.
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:54.239
But AP exams have really taken the place of SAT subject tests, especially at those top universities.
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:58.079
So AP exams are just going through the roof generally.
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:04.960
I mean, it's 37% of public high school students take at least one AP exam in high school.
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:11.280
So it's no longer just this these exams for the elite 20% of students.
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:14.400
No, it's over a third of students are taking at least one.
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:18.239
And those students who are taking exams, it's just also going up.
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:19.440
On average, they're taking more.
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:23.199
So I think AP exams are the big thing in the future that we'll see.
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:27.679
I think we'll also see colleges moving back towards tests required as well.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.400
Well, David, this has been incredible.
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:33.119
Um, I really do appreciate your time making time for it.
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:38.960
For families who want to go deeper with like Summit Prep, learn out more about what you guys offer, where should they find you?
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:40.719
Where can they find you?
00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:41.280
Yes.
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:44.239
So they can go to summitprep.com.
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:47.519
Uh, they can book a call to talk with us, or we have a contact form.
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:50.000
Feel free to reach out if they have any questions.
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.880
We love answering questions and we'd love to connect with them.
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:53.679
Awesome.
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:54.320
All right.
00:41:54.480 --> 00:42:00.400
And uh before we wrap, what's one thing you want families to uh take away from this conversation?
00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:11.039
I would like them to take away that they have a lot more influence in their children's education than they might think, but first they need accurate information.
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:17.440
So we see that families, when they understand that their child is struggling, they take action.
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:26.800
They take action by helping their kid after school or maybe getting a tutor or showing up to school board meetings and demanding change.
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:31.039
No one is going to advocate for your kids like you do.
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:36.159
So I would say first you need to find the right accurate information and then take action on it.
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:38.719
Awesome.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:39.599
All right.
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:41.679
Thank you so much, David, for being here.
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:48.480
I appreciate again your time and your expertise and uh looking forward to uh another conversation in the future.
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:50.239
Thank you so much.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:51.039
It was a pleasure.
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:52.159
All right, thank you.
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:54.639
We'll see you all next time on the Supported Learning Podcast.
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:55.440
Thanks for joining.
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:59.599
Thanks for joining us on the Supported Learning Podcast.
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:07.920
If today's conversation inspired you, challenged you, or sparked a new perspective, be sure to subscribe and share with a fellow change maker.
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:14.480
We'll be back soon with more voices, more insight, and more ways to elevate the future of learning together.
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:18.000
Until then, keep learning and keep pushing the conversation forward.
00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:08.800
You're listening to the Support Ed Learning Podcast, where we challenge the status quo of education and reimagine what learning should be.
00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:09.519
I'm Dr.
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:19.199
Joe Sebastian, and in every episode we dive into critical thinking, Bloom's Taxonomy, educational innovation, and how AI is shaping the future of learning.
00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:27.359
Whether you're a teacher, parent, policymaker, or lifelong learner, you're in the right place to rethink, reshape, and revive education.
00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:35.280
So, in a world where most colleges are going test optional, my guest today says the SAT and ACT are more important than ever.
00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:37.039
And he's got the data to prove it.
00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:40.079
He sits on the board of the National Test Prep Association.
00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:44.880
He runs two testing, two tutoring centers, excuse me, with 400 students.
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:49.039
And he turned down a job with the CIA to do this.
00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:50.560
So we're going to get into it today.
00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:52.640
Again, welcome back to the Supported Learning Podcast.
00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:53.280
I'm your host, Dr.
00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:54.320
Joe Sebastian.
00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:02.640
Families often ask me how to navigate the maze of college prep without wasting thousands of dollars or spending hours and hours of time.
00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:08.400
And it usually involves finding the people who figured out the rules of the game that schools aren't telling you.
00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:12.400
That's why I'm thrilled to have David Blowbaum here today.
00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:27.519
David is the co-founder of Summit Prep, a board member and director of outreach for the National Test Prep Association, a University of Chicago honors grad, and one of the most vocal advocates for why standardized testing is actually good for students.
00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:29.680
David, welcome to the show.
00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:31.840
Thank you so much for having me.
00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:36.400
Appreciate your time, fellow test prep company owner as well.
00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:42.719
So I, you know, I know I sent you over questions and we we have like a whole formal process, but I ask this now.
00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:47.120
This is my third University of Chicago guest on the podcast.
00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:50.079
So I have to ask, why does fun go to die there?
00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:53.200
So I hear it has changed.
00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:57.599
Um, but I mean, honestly, I it lived up to its name while I was there.
00:01:57.840 --> 00:01:58.400
Hate to say it.
00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:06.159
I mean, not that it wasn't fun, but visiting my friends at every other university, it did appear they had more fun than we were having.
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:11.599
University of Chicago at least was and probably still is a great education.
00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:16.159
And it's a great education because they are exceedingly rigorous.
00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:19.280
I mean, they don't really cut you any slack.
00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:30.719
There were finals weeks where I had a hundred pages in papers due, you know, uh taking five classes or four classes and 25-page papers due in all four of them.
00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:32.000
And they're due in a week.
00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:34.960
It was intense, but it was worth it.
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:35.599
Right.
00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:37.599
Well, I appreciate your time.
00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:41.919
Um, before we kind of get into this whole thing, I have to ask about the CIA story.
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:47.039
Well, as people that are actually in the CIA will say it's just called CIA.
00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:51.280
But but how does how do we get to where you are from that?
00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:53.599
Yes.
00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:56.719
So I graduated in 2010 from University of Chicago.
00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.520
Really did not know what I wanted to do.
00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:04.319
Um, among the many places that I applied to, I applied to the CIA.
00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:11.039
And I was fortunate enough to get a conditional offer of employment to be a leadership analyst focused on Pakistan.
00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:14.960
But the long scope background check takes about nine to 12 months.
00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:17.599
So I needed something to do in the interim.
00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:27.120
Um, so just to avoid poverty, that's how I got into part-time tutoring, which very quickly became full-time tutoring.
00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:32.800
And it actually would have been a 50% pay cut at that point for me to go work for the CIA.
00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:39.680
So, you know, I just continued, I withdrew my offer of employment and continue full-time with test prep.
00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:44.240
And I mean, I I'm so glad that I did and I had the opportunity and it worked out.
00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:46.639
So you turned down the opportunity to be Jack Ryan.
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That's what I'm hearing.
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It was in a it was an overt position.
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So technically you could tell, you know, your family, um, it's not quite Jack Ryan, but yes, I mean, it it would have been awesome nonetheless, I'm sure.
00:03:58.080 --> 00:03:59.840
Well, you would have been you would have been an analyst, right?
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He was an analyst, he was an analyst too, then he just got activated.
00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:04.719
So okay.
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I guess that's true.
00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:09.680
You uh well you because you actually graduated the same time I did.
00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:23.759
So you've basically been in the test prep game as long as I've been in education, which again, kudos to you for building uh, you know, two awesome testing centers and for the for making it through the uh the growth phase of the business, but the lasting power that you have.
00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:27.920
So I uh you started off doing test prep.
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When um when did you realize you had something more in terms of the the summit prep?
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Was it 2013?
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Like what you you got a co-founder as well, and I've heard you've been turned down by over 40 places looking for office space.
00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:43.600
What was that experience all like?
00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:50.959
So I mean, it was like most companies, it's rough in the beginning.
00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:55.360
And I think the smaller your company is, the rougher it is.
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I mean, people who have when people are just it's just them, sometimes they think, oh, well, I could never handle a much larger company.
00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:10.879
I think handling a larger company is so much easier because you can delegate and it's not all on you, and you have a team behind you.
00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:15.519
So, really, we were absolutely bootstrapping in those first two years.
00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:20.079
And I the company was just basically on the verge of going out of business for the first two years.
00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:30.399
But, you know, after that, we made a good investment in high quality admins, and they really helped us take it to the next level.
00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:32.399
So we had a great team of tutors.
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We've already had very high quality tutoring, but we didn't understand when we opened the company how important that support structure was for the tutors and the company as a whole and the service to clients.
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So it's really um, well, I mean, really, we didn't hit our stride until 2018, to be honest.
00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:56.079
So it's really like five years where it was terrifying to rough.
00:05:56.160 --> 00:06:00.399
Um, but in retrospect, you know, it you either sink or swim.
00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.639
And if you don't sink, you become a good swimmer.
00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:04.319
So it was, it was great practice.
00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:07.680
Yeah, it's kind of like, well, it's like then how they train you for the Navy.
00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:09.360
My grandfather used to, that's why I hate it.
00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:17.040
That's why really anti-Parl Harbor, the new movie with the Michael Bay one where the Navy, like the ships sinking, and they're like, I can't swim.
00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:20.399
And it's like my grandpa's like, the first thing they did when the Navy, they threw you in the water.
00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:22.319
They're like, you're either swimming or you're drowning.
00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:24.319
It's like you learn really quick.
00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:26.560
Yeah, I mean, it's it's definitely gonna be hard.
00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:30.480
And you're it sounds like your story is like you're brick and mortar, too.
00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.959
So you have the added stress of like making those payments too, right?
00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:36.560
The overhead.
00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:37.199
Yes.
00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:47.199
I mean, I don't find it particularly stressful because about 50% of our students are very adamant that they want in person.
00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:49.120
So it's a pretty easy decision.
00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:54.879
You know, we'd probably see our revenue be cut in half if we didn't have the brick and mortar.
00:06:55.120 --> 00:07:02.639
Um, but yes, to your point, seeing writing those checks uh is can be can be tough.
00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:03.040
Yeah.
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:09.600
No, I mean, I just admit, I mean, in terms of like, you know, I'm a little bit earlier in the game of business as you saw.
00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:16.160
I I relate to the stress, but you said you got you hit your stride in 2018, and then a couple years later, COVID happened.
00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:19.439
So how do you how did you adjust towards that?
00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:22.720
Yeah, it was interesting how people adjusted to COVID.
00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:39.040
So for us, in the first year of COVID, we grew a ton, which was very counterintuitive because that's when literally, well, almost, almost literally every college in the country went test optional uh that year.
00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:57.279
But what we found, and it's kind of like an interesting business case of what people think are competitors to their product or um just why people are using their product, we found that the biggest competitor to test prep was a student's sports and extracurricular activities.
00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.240
So those were totally wiped out.
00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:02.720
People weren't, you know, students were stuck at home.
00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:06.000
They weren't going to their extracurriculars, they weren't, you know, doing those sports.
00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:18.399
So their parents were just really packing their schedule with extra tutoring to get an advantage while everyone else was, and just to get that supplemental education that those parents recognized those kids needed.
00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.879
So we grew quite heavily in 2020, surprisingly.
00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:27.439
So you mentioned test optional.
00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:32.799
A lot of schools went test optional, and now that is going away really, really fast.
00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:41.360
And I think where we have outdated beliefs, like a lot of times the the changes, the policies change before the practices catch up to it.
00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:46.159
Where are we in terms of test optional with the SAT and the ACT right now?
00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:51.919
So the vast majority of colleges are quote-unquote test optional.
00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:56.240
They're on some location of the spectrum of what test optional really means.
00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:04.720
So you do have the very highly selective schools, most of the Ivy League, except for Columbia, has gone back to requiring test scores for admissions.
00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:10.879
And then you have some other schools, mostly in the South, that have also gone back to requiring test scores.
00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:17.200
The rest of the schools in the country, probably 95% of them, they're again quote unquote test optional.
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:26.080
So if it's a highly selective institution, let's say it's Vanderbilt, well, they're not really test optional, right?
00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:40.159
And these very highly selective institutions where they're denying, you know, 80%, 90%, sometimes 95% of applicants, they have to make some really hard cuts on student A or student B.
00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:42.960
That's particularly when they use test scores.
00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:48.960
And they're using test scores even more because grades are so inflated and they don't trust grades.
00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:54.960
So for those highly selectives, they're either test required or not really test optional.
00:09:55.120 --> 00:10:01.919
The more you go down the rankings, schools do become more, more truly test optional for applying.
00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:15.039
But I want to be specific about at that point, the school is not the most desirous institution necessarily, at least on the number of students that are applying and their admit rates.
00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.960
So those schools that have those lower admit rates, well, guess what?
00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:21.519
You might not need a test score to get in.
00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:30.399
But if you have a good test score, you're almost definitely going to get a merit scholarship or merit aid because they want to boost their rankings with good test scores.
00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:37.679
So test scores, they're either going to help you get in to a better college or they're going to help you afford college.
00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:44.720
And you could even trade going to a really prestigious school to going to a lesser-ranked school and probably get a ton of money from that school.
00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:48.080
Yeah, we uh obviously we have we serve similar clientele base.
00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:50.799
And so we, you know, we we've helped kids with college missions.
00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:52.720
We primarily help kids with APs.
00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:54.320
And that is that conversation.
00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:59.679
There's so much misinformation out there, and that parents think they're all their kids are going to Ivy Leagues.
00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:05.840
And like, listen, if all the Ivy Leagues all they did was accept Val Victorians, there still wouldn't be enough seats at these Ivy League schools.
00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:09.759
And, you know, and we could include University of Chicago and Stanford into that.
00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:16.639
And so they're looking for diverse sets of students, but just that that next tier down, there's so much more money there.
00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.960
Like when you took when you bring in the merit scholarships that you can get from standardized testing.
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:25.120
It's just so loot, it's just so much more powerful when you're making those financial decisions.
00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:34.000
It's funny because uh the Stanford, um, Stanford not only went non-test optional for SAT, they're also APs now required.
00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:38.639
If you have an AP on your on your transcript, you have to submit scores.
00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:42.399
And that's this year, 2025, 2026, use Chicago is next.
00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:45.840
They're gonna, they're gonna, they're they're changing their policy too.
00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.159
What um on AP exams or on SAT A?
00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:52.159
Sorry, on the AP exams.
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:54.559
Interesting.
00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:55.360
I had not heard that.
00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:56.720
I mean, you're very well informed.
00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.919
I mean, almost no one knows that Stanford and Caltech went to AP exam required last year.
00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:03.200
So you're very well informed.
00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:05.360
But I did not know that about University of Chicago.
00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.879
Well, yeah, so this is what I'm so you mentioned grade inflation.
00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:14.720
So like it's never I didn't even know 4.5 GPA was a thing until I started tutoring kids.
00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:17.759
Like every like so grades are super inflated.
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:28.879
And that's like, but so what happens is, and I, you know, I've been in the affluent schools, high schools, I'm talking about, is that kids will take a bunch of AP courses and then not sit for the exams.
00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:40.399
So they have they get the weight, they get they get the the prestige of it on the transcripts and they get to say they took a bunch of AP classes, but they don't they don't actually challenge themselves on the AP exams or don't do it.
00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.039
And it's like the worst thing you could ever do.
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:58.639
But it's you know, in their mind, it's it is and so Stanford's like, we know the game, you know, and now it's put so much pressure, I'm sure, on you as well, or just in your field, like now to get top 10, you have you're talking 1500s now.
00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:01.840
There's like no question about it in terms of where they fall.
00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:03.840
Absolutely.
00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:06.080
So, how has that changed?
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:14.240
I mean, what my essay, I guarantee you my SAT was lower than yours, but what was your SAT to get into you in Chicago versus what it is now?
00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:19.759
So I took the ACT to go to the University of Chicago.
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:21.679
Um, I was really fortunate.
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:25.440
I mean, I got a 33 on the ACT, which is a good score.
00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:32.480
It's a top 2% score, but it's it's like, you know, it wouldn't get you in today.
00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:37.039
Uh it would really wouldn't even get you in when I applied uh in 2006.
00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:51.679
Um, I did a interview at the University of Chicago, though, and the admissions rep, I mean, I'm blessed that whatever he saw in me, he told me at the end, he's like, yeah, you're gonna, I mean, this is when they still did snail mail.
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:54.399
So he said, you're gonna get the thick packet in the mail.
00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:56.240
That was those were his last words to me.
00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:00.159
So I knew I was in and I didn't retake the ACT and the rest was history.
00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:01.919
Yeah, that's awesome.
00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:05.759
Like, look at the common data sets now and that, like, yeah, maybe like a 1530.
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:10.879
It's like you're, you know, just to scratch the surface, you basically we're talking mid-1500s.
00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:24.480
Yeah, you literally to get looked like properly looked at, yes, I would say 1530 is really the cutoff to get your application sufficiently read at one of those top 10 schools.
00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.799
Really, you're probably looking at 1570 if you really want to get into a top 10 school.
00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:34.960
At least as an, you know, academic admit, not you know, not a recruited athlete or something.
00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:36.320
Right, right, right, right.
00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:48.480
So you say SAT, ACT, standardized tests are actually good for students in an age where we've let kids kind of do whatever they want.
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:52.559
Why why are standardized testing, why is that good for kids?
00:14:54.799 --> 00:15:11.200
So I think when and the University of California, San Diego recently came out with a report just at the uh end of 2025, and it pretty much provided all the data that um I had been saying was there, but didn't have the full data set.
00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:27.840
And the beauty of this report is it showed that um in the last four years, the percentage of uh University of UCSD, University of California San Diego students who are testing into remedial math went from 1% up to 12%.
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:33.039
So 12 out as many of them are testing into remedial math.
00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.000
And again, UCSD went test blind.
00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:39.120
So they don't use the SAT or ACT scores and admissions.
00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:44.080
So they're admitting 12 times as many students who need remedial math.
00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:46.000
They weren't ready for college-level math.
00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:56.960
But not only that, those students, the school had to make a new remedial math course for them because it used to be just high school remedial math.
00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:04.720
They found that 75% of those students testing in remedial math, they didn't know elementary or middle school math.
00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:20.080
So, and of those students who didn't know elementary or middle school math but were going into college, a quarter of them had perfect 4.0 GPAs in math in high school.
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:30.799
So they were getting four point, you know, A's in pre-calculus and calculus matriculating into UCSD, and they didn't know elementary middle school math.
00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:35.679
So we were not getting accurate signals from grades.
00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:37.840
They're just completely inflated.
00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.399
And that leads to mismatching, which people might say, who cares?
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:44.240
Okay, now they're into UCSD.
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:45.519
That's that's to their benefit.
00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:54.879
No, the report showed that those students are likely to progress through their major, let's say biology or particularly engineering.
00:16:55.440 --> 00:17:01.519
About them in biology will have to switch out of biology because they can't pass that last math class.
00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:08.880
And the report could not find one student who went to remedial math who was able to graduate as an engineering major.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:19.279
And so we're setting these kids up who want to be biologists or engineers, and we're setting them up for failure because we're mismatching them to the wrong schools and the wrong majors.
00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:26.559
It's not so much that they're going to drop out, that's a misconception, it's that they're going to train, they're going to switch into easier majors.
00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:33.359
And then they likely burned up one, maybe two years of classes in a major, couldn't finish in it.
00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:38.079
So now they're taking five years, six years or more to finish their degree.
00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:42.000
That's delaying their earnings, that's increasing their student loan debts.
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.039
And it's really to their detriment.
00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:50.720
We could just use, I mean, I think we should use all available relevant information.
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:56.079
The SAT and ACT help predict who will succeed in a given college and a given major.
00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:58.640
That's why I say that it's good for students.
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:08.319
This episode is brought to you by Supported Tutoring, where we don't just help students get better grades, we help them become critical thinkers.
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:19.519
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00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:30.240
So I'm trying to think of how I asked.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:33.759
So I guess here here's my perspective from inside the schools.
00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:45.599
I think it is the natural progression of education systematically of us passing the buck of not holding the line.
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:55.039
So when I was in the classroom teaching IB history, my colleague and I, like everyone has to draw metaphorical lines in the sand.
00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:17.119
For us, because the nature of the IB curriculum, and they had to do an internal assessment, and we're like, look, if they our pass rate originally was 20%, it went up to a 90% by us just implementing two things that we like were consistent: a common framework for writing, where like you are not leaving our class unless you actually know how to write a well-structured essay with like our like almost research level paragraphs.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.480
And two, actually, how to properly cite your sources.
00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:24.960
Very, very basic things, but so easy to just be like, whatever.
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:28.079
Not, and so like it's kind of like our hills to die on.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:45.920
And I just think that education proverbally has punted the hills to die on, in that you have kids that have been told they're awesome their whole life, that are in these high advanced classes, AP, IB, college, and the high school, and no one wants to ding their grades.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.400
No one actually wants to like see, like a C is like unheard of.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:55.359
Like I get kids, parents come to me with like the B's and they're panicking, you know?
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.480
And it's like they're perfect GPA, they're perfect GPA.
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.200
It's all they're all it's like so much more pressure now.
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:09.279
I'm not trying to give anyone any off the hook here in terms of like, but like it's just we're just not holding the line academically.
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:17.200
And so you have that level of inflated GPA for grade promotion, and that more kids are more educated, but no less.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.440
If they don't know, they don't critical thinkers.
00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:26.720
And now you're what you're citing is exactly where kids are going to college, not being able to do math, and they're dropping out of engineering programs.
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.559
So it's this like silent academic epidemic that we have.
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:38.240
And I don't know how we fix it without you know, without the competitiveness kind of taking down a notch.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:43.519
I mean, you've nailed it according to NAEP scores, so that's the nation's report card.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:47.839
And they they measure students at fourth grade, eighth grade, and twelfth grade.
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.079
Um, on all those measures were at record lows.
00:20:50.240 --> 00:21:02.079
So for 12th graders, it's only 35% of students, of 12th grade students, are proficient in reading, and only 22% are proficient in math.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:06.720
The historic lows since this started being measured, which is a little over 30 years ago.
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:06.960
Right.
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:08.640
And yet grades are higher than ever.
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:13.039
It's now 80, this is according to UCLA's higher education research institute.
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:20.400
It's now 84% of students who go on to a four-year BA granting university had an A average in high school.
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:26.319
So basically every, so grades are higher than ever, standardized measures of academic achievement are lower than ever.
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:37.680
And when you Gallup did a poll of what percentage of parents believe that their kids are at or above grade level, it's 90% of parents believe that their kids are at or above grade level.
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:40.799
And so to me, that is just robbing kids.
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:44.559
It's robbing parents of the information and robbing kids of their futures.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:59.440
Because we also know from the data that when parents know that their kids are struggling academically, when they know that their kids are below grade level, most parents intervene and help get their kids help uh in school.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:06.319
But when they they're when they're getting grades back that are all A's, maybe some B's, they think their kids are fine.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:11.039
And they don't find out that their kids are fine usually until they take an SAT or ACT.
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:11.599
Right.
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.680
And that's when they but then they don't trust the SAT or ACT.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:19.039
They come in and they say, look, my kid has a 4.3 GPA.
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:20.559
He's just bad at that testing.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:22.400
He's bad at the SAT and ACT.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:23.599
It's like he's not.
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:24.480
Yeah, exactly.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:29.279
It's like, you know, a small percentage of kids actually are bad at test taking, right?
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.960
The vast majority of them are not.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:38.240
The vast majority of them, it's accurately measuring their grammar abilities, their rhetorical skills, mathematics, reading comprehension.
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:50.079
And so I totally understand from a parent's perspective why the vast majority of them think their kids are at or above grade level, because just about that same percentage have an A average.
00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:52.640
So it's a, and to your point, how do you fix it?
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:59.920
I mean, you could go back to grading on a curve where, you know, only 20% of kids get an A becomes very competitive.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:01.440
It would solve the problem, though.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:08.160
Another thing you could do is include a student's standardized measures in that class on their grade.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:14.319
So yeah, the grade might say A, but by standardized state measures, they might be at the 30th percentile.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:19.039
Now the parent has extra information to better understand what that A means.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:20.559
It doesn't mean much.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:25.680
So walk us through what you guys do at Summit Preps.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:26.960
What's your methodology?
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:29.759
And when a new student comes to you, what happens?
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:31.200
What's the process?
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:32.160
Yeah.
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:37.279
So our method, I mean, I am really obsessive about teacher quality.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.400
And so we source the highest quality tutors.
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:46.000
We provide them 160 hours of training just on the SAT and ACT, I think is the most in the country.
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:51.200
And then all of our curriculum, rigorously sourced, um, all evidence-based.
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:58.880
And I take the test myself, both the SAT and ACT, just to make sure that everything in our curriculum and how we're teaching it is tailored to the test.
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:09.599
When a student then comes in, we like, although not all families follow this, we like for them to take a full-length SAT and a full-length ACT, see which test they do better on.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.640
Now, it's not just which score is higher.
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:17.039
It also depends where you which section scores are higher on the given exams.
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:25.519
Overall, the ACT, because it's an achievement test, not an aptitude test, it's a little bit easier to prep for and get student scores up.
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:32.000
But still, we like to go from those official test scores to figure out which test is better for students.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:39.920
And we're one of only about 50 companies in the world that has a license to use ACT's official content.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:46.160
So we're using that official content to diagnose what test is better for students and where are their weaknesses.
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:51.599
What is the biggest mistake families make when approaching the tests for either one?
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:55.359
Thinking that tips and tricks are going to get the job done.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:00.400
So if tips and tricks got the job done, everybody would have really high scores.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:01.279
It would be easy.
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:05.519
Well, if it was easy, everybody would have high scores and you'd need even higher scores.
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:16.720
So yeah, the the big box test prep companies, they try and tell you that the SAT and ACT only measure how you can take the SAT and ACT and that you can do tips and tricks.
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:19.680
You can get a little bit from tips and tricks, a little bit.
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:29.359
But if you're really, really going to significantly improve your score, you have to significantly improve and your knowledge and skill on all these core areas.
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:31.920
And they're not random core areas.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:38.559
They're the areas that the SAT and ACT have done the research on that predict success in college.
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:44.000
So that's why Opportunity Insights is the largest, uh, the most recent large-scale study.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.960
They looked at IV and IV Plus uh institutions.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:55.920
They found SAT and ACT scores were 3.9 times more predictive than a student's high school grades at how they're going to uh perform in college.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:05.200
Well, the reason they're 3.9 times more predictive is because they're measuring the core concepts and knowledge that students need to actually succeed in college.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:09.680
So there's no shortcut if you substantially want to improve.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:15.279
And these concepts and skills are very important if you actually want to succeed in college, which is the whole point.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:22.319
The whole point is not to get into college, it's to succeed in college and get out and achieve success in life.
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.559
Yeah, that's that's actually really well put.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:27.759
I've had so many conversations.
00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:30.319
Uh, first off, I love the tips and tricks thing.
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:38.079
Because like, you know, where I where I think we can align on is we align on a couple of places, but college emissions.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:48.240
Uh and we'll get into like test prep regulations here in a second, but you because what you just said in terms of some of the marketing gimmicks out there of tips and tricks, right?
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:53.359
And that in the in the college coaching space, that is also true.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:58.960
That you just need a passion project, you just need an internship, you just need a research paper.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.240
What was your passion project to get into you Chicago, David?
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:02.880
Right?
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:11.599
So, like, and that, and it's like, no, you you actually need a really good academic profile.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:18.640
And it's like, if we're like, if you're saying you want, and and I'm gonna double on this for a second.
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:25.519
If you're saying you want to go into a top 10 school, minimum GPA, 3-7 unweighted, minimum.
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:36.799
Your SAT score has to be phenomenal, and you have to have fours and fives on your APs outside, like we're not that's like foundational one, and that college companies don't support the academic growth.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:45.039
You still have to hire tutors, but like, oh yeah, you're your three-one's fine, your three four is fine, you'll get in, we'll just give you a passion project.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:50.640
So, like, it comes to that authenticity, but then also what else did you say?
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.640
Those tips and tricks really double down in terms of there's not, it's not a secret.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.640
It's really not, you have to put the work in.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.279
You have to actually go through the process, you have to get the feedback.
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:02.880
And I think that's we're just such an instant gratification society.
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:05.039
We're like, it's gotta be an easier way.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:06.799
There's gotta be a hack here, right?
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:11.039
And you're so you're saying that's not, that's not, there isn't.
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:12.799
Exactly.
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:25.519
I mean, I the the SAT and ACT are the shortest college admissions exams of any of the most economically developed countries in the world.
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:31.759
So you look at other countries and most of their college admissions exams are eight hours long.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:37.599
Or, you know, I mean, you you look at the UK and they do A-level exams, which kind of like AP exams.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:43.839
And I mean, you might be taking 16 hours of A-level exams, maybe 24 hours of A-level exams.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:49.920
And we're complaining about what is basically a two-hour exam at this point, even though it's the shortest.
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:51.759
So you're exactly right.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:55.119
We're always trying to, and it is it's tough.
00:28:55.200 --> 00:29:03.519
The SAT and HTTP are in a bind because they're they're they're catering to a consumer culture that wants it to be as fast as possible.
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:08.960
But the problem is, is the knowledge acquisition is not fast.
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:11.519
It takes a lot of work.
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.759
So I'm I've had students go up 10 or more points.
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:22.079
My lat, my um, last year, the student of mine who went up the most went up 14 points.
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.839
She went up from a 20 on the ACT to a 34.
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:34.799
The amount of pain and suffering that she had to go through to get to that is is something that 99% of people would not do.
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:41.440
It was a remarkable increase, but it took remarkable, a stunning amount of work.
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:45.119
So, yeah, if if it was easy, everybody would do it.
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.079
And and that's how we should know that that is not easy.
00:29:48.160 --> 00:30:03.519
Um, and really the the marketing from test prep companies that it's tips and tricks that has really stuck in the American mind and eroded trust in standardized measures that is really just false.
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:08.079
Um, and and the marketing preys on people's skepticism and quite frankly, their ignorance.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:12.480
Well, I think it goes back to what you said earlier, two things you said earlier.
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:30.240
My second point was gonna be what the why of like my first question, usually to kids who come to us either for AP prep college emissions or anything in between, and they say they want to go to a Harvard, they want to go to Stanford, they want to go like a why?
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:35.759
Why, like, because you said staying in college and finishing college.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:41.839
I think most families, the way they approach college emissions is the the finish line is getting in, and it's not.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:50.400
It's like, and so like if you're if you're mindset my kid to get into Harvard and everything in life will work out for them.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:31:01.599
And it's like, actually, it won't because they're looking for who's gonna represent the brand of Harvard tremendously and know they can get through and go on to do great things.
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:04.799
So, therefore, your why should be bigger than just getting into a school.
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:06.799
It should be like what your purpose is.
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:08.799
Why do you need Harvard to do that?
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:09.359
Right.
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:10.960
Like that's what we usually say.
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:18.720
And that it sounds like we're kind of like talking about the same things, just in different aspects, is that the goalpost should be a lot further.
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.480
It should be actually graduating through that Ivy League school, not just getting it.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:24.000
Yes.
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:36.480
And to be honest, I would even set the I would also set the goalpost to success in life because I I do think that, and I I see this from personal experience actually, because we interview a lot of people for tutoring positions.
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:45.440
And the the people who didn't work out last year as tutors at my company graduate from Brown, graduate from Columbia, and graduate from Duke.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:51.839
And those were the only people that didn't work out, are like top, top, you know, graduated from the fancy university.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:00.240
And the reason that they didn't is because they were really unhappy in life, because they thought that the goalpost was getting in, and then they thought the goalpost was graduating.
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:03.519
Well, I have, you know, I graduated from Duke.
00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:06.799
Like, and they think that they can just coast on that.
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:08.079
And that's not reality.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:18.240
Whereas those really smart students who graduated from a state school, they're hungry and they're out to prove themselves.
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:23.759
And they hustle and they end up on average being better tutors, actually.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:30.720
So, yeah, I mean, it's all these expectations around college and putting so much emphasis on the name.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:38.079
I'm I mean, the name can help, especially if you're a disadvantaged student and you go to one of those top schools, the data is clear that on average it really helps you.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:46.880
But if you're already one of those privileged students, if it might be a disadvantage to go to one of those top schools if you're going to get a sense of entitlement from it.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:47.359
Right.
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:52.240
So you've done about 70 plus media appearances talking about testing and emissions.
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.279
What's the one thing you wish every family understood about the college admissions process?
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:02.720
And then we've talked a little bit about it, but what do you think one thing that all families should know?
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:07.200
Actually, that would be it, is it's about success in life.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:18.240
And so that's what people should be perpetually focused on is the actual end goal, not these intermediary goals that they get confused for end goals.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:26.559
So I've never talked, I literally, I've literally never talked to a former student of mine who was unhappy with where they went to college.
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.000
It hasn't happened once.
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:28.480
Right.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:33.359
They're generally just happy with, you know, and I mean some kids transfer and things like that.
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:38.240
But on the whole, that's not what they're focused on afterwards.
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:42.880
And um, I mean, life is about so much more than where you went to college.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:55.200
So I would say focus on being a good a good person, focus on working hard, focus on, you know, gaining those um academic and personal attributes that are gonna succe set you up for success in life.
00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:59.279
And then wherever you end up in college, do your best, work hard.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:02.400
Wherever you end up in that first job, do your best, work hard.
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:04.880
Those are the keys to success is hard work.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:11.519
So do you um what I'm gonna say?
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:12.320
Apologize.
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:12.880
Oh, yeah.
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:20.000
So so for families who think that, you know, expensive test preps only for wealthy families, what is your message to them?
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:29.199
Of, you know, I can't, I can't afford any type of prep, but I want my kid to do good, or expensive prep only favors the wealthy.
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.280
Well, how would you push back against that?
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:35.679
I mean, expensive prep certainly favors the wealthy, right?
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:43.519
Um, and so I I would I would there it's twofold, would be my reply.
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:52.159
Um, one would be saying, yeah, there is an advantage because the wealthy tend to have better access to a quality education.
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:56.400
And it is, it is better access to a quality education.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:02.639
And the SAT and ACT, they're not measuring wealth, they're measuring the quality of your education.
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:08.239
They're not perfect, but they're they're they're quite good measures of academic preparedness.
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:21.760
But what we also see is just having access to a high quality of education is absolutely not a guarantee that that student will end up knowing that knowledge and having those skills.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:31.760
Because you could give everybody a free access to a great trainer at a gym, how many people are going to show up and really put the work in and work hard?
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:32.960
Not most of us.
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:35.760
And that's exactly what we see in the data.
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:48.719
So of the top point, the 0.1% income earners in the United States, so the the wealthiest of the wealthy, 7% of their kids get a top 1% score.
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:58.480
So that is seven times higher than we would think, but that means 93% of them do not get a top 1% score.
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:01.599
So it's not that you can just pay for a top score.
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:11.280
No matter what, you had to put the time and the effort into getting that top one 1% score, which then broadens it out.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:13.119
So, yes, there's an advantage to wealth.
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:16.480
So then we broaden it out to okay, well, they had to put the time in.
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:19.039
They had to learn it, they had to gain those knowledge and skills.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:20.639
Can any student do that?
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:25.280
Yes, because it's not hidden knowledge and skill.
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:27.280
It just takes a long time.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:30.639
And you might have to learn it yourself, but you can learn it yourself.
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:33.760
There's Khan Academy online that's free.
00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:35.599
There are inexpensive prep books.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:36.880
There's uh, what is it called?
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.079
I'm blanking on the name.
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:42.559
There's free tutoring services online these days as well from other high school students.
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:45.599
So there are tons of resources out there.
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:53.760
Hungry, disadvantaged students can give themselves a huge advantage even over the wealthy if they're able to work hard and put the time in.
00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:58.239
Because even the wealthiest kids, they don't usually put the time in and work that hard.
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:04.960
Um, and and the last thing that I would say about that is the college admissions process heavily favors the wealthy.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.079
We know that the wealthy have more access to extracurricular activities.
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:12.559
Their essays tend to be better, their teacher recommendations tend to be longer, higher quality.
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:18.159
Um, they're more likely to be a legacy, they're more likely to be recruited for an Ivy League sport, on and on and on.
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:22.559
All the things I just mentioned, they don't help predict success in college.
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:27.599
And even though they don't help predict success in college, the wealthy have an advantage on them.
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:46.400
So the place, and this is borne out by the data, the opportunity insights 2023, um the the vast majority of the, well, really essentially all of the unfair advantage that the wealthy have come from the non-academic factors.
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:50.239
Whereas SAT and ECT scores, they're predictive of success.
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:55.440
And any student can technically learn and gain the knowledge and skills to do well on them.
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:57.519
Well said.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:01.039
So let's let's finish out here with uh lightning round.
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:04.159
So just rapid fire questions, first thing that comes to mind.
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:05.119
Sound good?
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:06.719
Sound good.
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:07.360
All right.
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:10.880
One resource every family should use during test prep.
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.480
The official SAT and official ACT.
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:20.400
So there's the blue book exams online for the official mock SATs.
00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:25.840
I would say do not use third-party tests unless you've run out of those eight tests online.
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:30.559
For the ACT, there's also three official ACTs online.
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:39.199
Use those before you use any uh third-party test, which is probably not that accurate and will not give you a very accurate score.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:43.360
Worst advice you hear families getting about standardized testing.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.679
You gotta go back to tips and tricks.
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:46.800
So worst advice.
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:55.679
If you hear, you know, hey, we give your kid all the tips and tricks, I would say almost definitely run if that's what they're gonna lead with.
00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:59.599
One thing parents overthink about college emissions.
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:01.599
Everything.
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:07.840
So like I like literally, I think they they overanalyze everything.
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:13.280
I think they overanalyze test scores, the essays, I mean, literally everything we've talked about, right?
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:16.159
I mean, I I think we get so, so rapid.
00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:24.079
I guess the overanalyzing the name that's on um the name, the the the brand name of the of the school.
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:35.760
If your kid goes to the flagship public university in their state and works hard, they're set up almost as well, usually, as if they went to an IB league.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:37.519
I gotcha.
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:39.599
Especially if they go to an honors college.
00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:40.480
Sure.
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:45.760
What uh one thing, well, most underrated factor in a college application?
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:52.079
Say the additional information section at the end of the common app.
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:57.119
So, you know, if a student, you don't want to have any question marks on your application.
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:08.800
So if there's a C or something on there, or there's just something that will not make sense to the college admissions officer, use that additional information section to give further explanation.
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:13.039
So ideally, there are no question marks to the college admissions officer.
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:17.360
Don't assume that they're going to fill in the gap or fill it in uh accurately.
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:21.519
And then what's the next big shift in testing?
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:26.960
It's actually what you, in my opinion, you nailed it when you talked about AP exams.
00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:36.639
So you look even six years ago, and schools were really not using AP exams that much for the admissions decisions.
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:45.679
You could get course credit from them, but they're really now fulfilling a role that actually SAT subject tests, they were discontinued in 2021.
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:47.599
So most people don't even know what those are.
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:54.239
But AP exams have really taken the place of SAT subject tests, especially at those top universities.
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:58.079
So AP exams are just going through the roof generally.
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:04.960
I mean, it's 37% of public high school students take at least one AP exam in high school.
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:11.280
So it's no longer just this these exams for the elite 20% of students.
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:14.400
No, it's over a third of students are taking at least one.
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:18.239
And those students who are taking exams, it's just also going up.
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:19.440
On average, they're taking more.
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:23.199
So I think AP exams are the big thing in the future that we'll see.
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:27.679
I think we'll also see colleges moving back towards tests required as well.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.400
Well, David, this has been incredible.
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:33.119
Um, I really do appreciate your time making time for it.
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:38.960
For families who want to go deeper with like Summit Prep, learn out more about what you guys offer, where should they find you?
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:40.719
Where can they find you?
00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:41.280
Yes.
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:44.239
So they can go to summitprep.com.
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:47.519
Uh, they can book a call to talk with us, or we have a contact form.
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:50.000
Feel free to reach out if they have any questions.
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.880
We love answering questions and we'd love to connect with them.
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:53.679
Awesome.
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:54.320
All right.
00:41:54.480 --> 00:42:00.400
And uh before we wrap, what's one thing you want families to uh take away from this conversation?
00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:11.039
I would like them to take away that they have a lot more influence in their children's education than they might think, but first they need accurate information.
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:17.440
So we see that families, when they understand that their child is struggling, they take action.
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:26.800
They take action by helping their kid after school or maybe getting a tutor or showing up to school board meetings and demanding change.
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:31.039
No one is going to advocate for your kids like you do.
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:36.159
So I would say first you need to find the right accurate information and then take action on it.
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:38.719
Awesome.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:39.599
All right.
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:41.679
Thank you so much, David, for being here.
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:48.480
I appreciate again your time and your expertise and uh looking forward to uh another conversation in the future.
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:50.239
Thank you so much.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:51.039
It was a pleasure.
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:52.159
All right, thank you.
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:54.639
We'll see you all next time on the Supported Learning Podcast.
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:55.440
Thanks for joining.
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:59.599
Thanks for joining us on the Supported Learning Podcast.
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:07.920
If today's conversation inspired you, challenged you, or sparked a new perspective, be sure to subscribe and share with a fellow change maker.
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:14.480
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00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:18.000
Until then, keep learning and keep pushing the conversation forward.
