Ep. 407 - J.T. Patten

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Speaker 1: Ah beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're listening to Software a Gradio Special Operations, military news and straight talk with the guys and the community, softwarep Radio, on Time on Target and uh, I guess I'm gonna reveal that we're, you know, recording two shows at once here, so I do apologize this bringing this is our Thanksgiving special. Yeah, so we're recording early so we can all take Thanksgiving off, um, but at the same time we're getting this podcast out. The coincide with the release of J. T. Patton's new book, Buried in Black, which, by the way, I will give credit to Jack. I was like, I will just run the best of and You're like, no, let's do two shows. Well, j T. Patton on and and by the way, because I was like running through stuff for these past two shows. You hear the theme song through your headphones, right, I do? Is that your first time hearing it? Because it's been a while since you've been on you know, I don't remember. I know that I've listened to the show so much so I'm used to that. But okay, we I think it has been with two thousand and sixteen since I was on I guess slow kicking out the books. But uh but yeah, I know it sounds great. Yeah, it's been a while, as I always say, very top Gun esque. I did ask John Burns, which you guys could visited John Burns band dot com, b y r n E S. You know. I was like, let's go with something that sounds like the top Gun theme, but not so much that we get kicked off platforms for copyright infringement. So that was that was really the uh you know, the essence behind the song. But anyway, I think a ton of our audience know who J. T. Patton is UM former counter terrorism intelligence advisor and thriller writer. And he has a book at today as we're recording this, which is Buried in Black, and it's the first in a brand new series. Correct. So it's um. I had been an indie publisher, uh and and this was the first one that's kicked off through Kensington and through their um their lyrical press. Uh. So it's uh so I guess I'm to to a certain agree running with the big dogs. Uh. And we'll just see if I can keep up. Yeah, it's awesome. I've I read your previous works. Um, when we we talked about them on the last podcast. The new book, Buried in Black, I have it, um two pages into it, which maybe it's a good thing. I can't blow the ending for anybody, UM because I don't know. But I think I think just like your last books, which I was fascinated by and the kind of take you had on counter terrorism operations and intelligence operations, this one is definitely in the same vein. It's not the same experience you would get from reading, um, let's say, an Adult and Fury novel, or a Jack Murphy novel for that for that matter, I mean this is something different. Uh, it's something darker too. UM. So I'll let you tell us a little bit about what the book is about. UM. I just well another Well, go ahead and you tell us about the book and then we'll get into some other things. Okay, sounds good. Well. The one thing that you did bring up that was I think kind of interesting is you know, putting yourself out there and Dalton Fury and of the books that are out there in the military thriller genre UM or sub genre. I think that I get more accolades from people who like those type of books of those authors you know yourself included. They are darker, they are a lot more gritty, they are hard hitting. UM. I'd say that's where I fit in is in that in that real gray and harass and and really a lot of the brutality. UM. I think to a large degree, that's where there wasn't a huge palette for some of the earlier works that I had UM in the publishing world because quite frankly, I said it was just too dark. It's waving no no and UM. But you know, I think that's what I'm hoping to bring of it. UM. I'm hoping to bring the you know, my background being from the intelligent side and miss and support. UM. It's not like the espionage novels of UH, you know John McRae UM and some of the others that are a lot more you know, the smiley, long drawn out, not a whole lot of action going on. UM. But yet it's also not quite just born you know, where you've got this guy who's just unstoppable running everywhere. It's how do you fit intelligence into ops, put them on the ground, and what happens when some of the intel operators are called to UH to work direct action really it's a lot of I think what we've seen in the last six to eight years with the wars that are going on. UM. But I think that there, for whatever reason, the genres of subgenres are still kind of split. Uh. You know, you've either got to be one or you've got to be the other one. And as as we know, the adage of intel is ops, ops is intel UM. I think that's that's where I like to be. Um Buried Black is very similar. Only when I was starting out the new series with Kensington, you know, they wanted something different, um, something different from what's out there. And but yeah, they wanted to have kind of what I brought to the table, uh, with the intelligence kind of fusion side of things. And I think there's plenty of books out there with with Delta Force operators A S A D and UM, sorry, I gotta dudes doing aircraft takedowns and direct action raids in Afghanistan or you know. And some of those authors are very good. You know, I've spoken, you know, very highly of you know, the Dalton Fury books. I love them. I think what your books are a little bit more about, UM is intelligence driven operations. Uh. And I guess I think. I think what you're writing about is what a lot of people see as the future of counter terrorism into the next decade. Is what you're talking about, that fusion of intelligence and operations, and it ends up in a very great place. Yeah, I think so. And I think as you're bringing into the technology to things and and again you know the the Sale Team six and Delta books. I love my reading myself, but I couldn't come up with something that was that much different. The other thing of it is is that I, you know, like many others, I'm I'm held down by um publication review and so there is a certain degree of what I can't even put out there. And so one of the things that was nice about writing about Task Force Orange of the intelligence support activity is it's one of the few Jaysack elements that I wasn't formally read into. So I felt like I had a little bit of leeway there where even if maybe I had worked with a program office or something like that and that's the type of thing that they were doing, I thought that I could take enough of the history things that are out there in the public and and just you know, put out there, Okay, here's what this element does UM and then put it into kind of a newer crafted type of a storyline that that takes you know, the U, A v. S, the UH, the the hacking and the jamming, and then still bring in you know, regular human tradecraft and of course the direct action that's part of it. So it really kind of a fun place to be. Well. I was wondering if you could explain for the listeners. In the beginning of the book, you mentioned that essentially what your book is about, what Buried in Black is about, is about waved unacknowledged special access programs, and I was wondering if you could explain to people what does that What does that term mean when you hear that. I mean, I think most people are familiar with the term top secret, but you're you're talking about something a little bit deeper, more and more compartmentalized than that. Even yeah, very much so. So, I mean, as you know, with the various classifications, and then you have various you know, read ins to certain programs, and there are some programs UM where you get into acknowledged where you know, people do recognize. So you're now getting into more of the covert activities UM where there's some things that people are just not going to acknowledge, and there are certain levels of this, so that deepness into those operations where even uh, you know, congressional oversight isn't going to be part of it. So it's you know, it's it's unacknowledged. We're not going to acknowledge that those things exist, and it's waved from having any oversight. So this is kind of the deep in the bowels, so to speak of programs. Um. I laugh, because there were certain, um, certain buildings that I might have gone into in the past to do some work. And even though you're in the skiff, even though you're at a certain level of compartmentalization, you know, you're still kind of brought into like the broom closet, uh, to have some discussions about some programs and some projects that are going on. And that's, you know, really from that advantage that I'm taking, it is you've got what everybody else knows, even when they think that they're running kind of dark projects. But then there's that other layer, which is the hey, let's get this guy in there. And and I think that's where some of this ambiguity and the confusion even comes in and operating is there are times when you don't even ask what who who is the owner of this program? Um? You know, you don't even ask what the mission is of it. You just you know, somebody brought you in and said, hey, grab this guy. You know. UM in my case, they may have said, you know, he can help you get in or get out of a place, or do some of the um COVID support. And you know, you don't even ask who the guys are. You may be introduced, you may see some familiar faces, you just don't ask. So I think that where the books are that I write is you know, what if you're tasked, what if you really don't know what it is or you kind of get a general sense of it, but you know, you just kind of going through that operation uh mentality mindset of the environment where you know, don't ask, don't tell, and you just kind of assume, Hey, have you've been brought into a loop? You know you're in the enough note that you need to be in well with the unacknowledged program. I think it's interesting that the people who are read onto it, they cannot respond with no comment. They have to respond, I don't know what the hell you're talking about I've never heard of that. Even if it's it could be their own boss in certain situations that asks them, hey, what do you have you ever heard of this program? And they have to look at their boss dead in the eye and say, I've never heard of that before, right, right, And again, I've never been in those situations where somebody delineates that this is one of those things that you have to say no to. It's just they're just some things that you're involved with where you just you just know, you just you shut the hell up. You don't say anything to anybody, which is hard because you might be involved with it with somebody else and they might ask you and say, hey, I know that you're involved with that. That's where the counterintelligence standpoint goes in. You're like, you know, I don't even know if you're read into this too. You know, it's kind of informal, and so you end up going back checking with somebody and um saying, hey, you know, does this person you know have that need to know or are they involved also speaking to those uh those conversations and the mop closet and the broom closet. I I remember we had recently on Sean Parnell and we were having a conversation about weird stuff, weird stuff that's kind of beyond what we were typically refer to as tier one, tier one operators, that they're like these little levels above that. We're having this conversation about how sometimes you know, you're you know, arranger patrol is out doing something and they get told, hey, swing by this grid location and meet this dude, and some guy just comes walking down off the side of the mountain, white guy with a beard, punches up something on his laptop and gives it to you and you take it back to the base for somebody. It's like these weird things that come into your operations laterally, like hey, while you're out there, uh go do this, or drop this guy off, or take this one guy out with you, and he's gonna go walk around the market while you're out of your patrol and then come back and you bring him back with you. And it's just weird ship for lack of a better term, but it's actual operational stuff that's taking place, that's being punched into normal operations and in a lateral fashion, right right, And to be clear, you know, I was never the guy who was walking out there, you know that Mr Smith or that Mr White, UM that just happened to be. You know, my role in in you know, covert support and UM and and mission support activities were how to get that guy into that place, or how to get that guy out of that place, how to make them look like the local UM or if they have to have some money coming in or going out, you know, what are we doing to support that UM? And so I think they're too you know, coming from the intelligence side, I know that I'm not the same level of operator as those guys are going to be. And so when you are having those discussions, you know, you just know there's a guy who's sitting there at the end of the table or sitting in there in the corner, and they're saying, hey, can you do this? Can you do this? And you're kind of like, well, I think I can, but you recognize that guy in the room is going to be the person that's got to actually do it. So it's it's got a little bit of a pressure. But that's also where you know, you whatever you're saying that you can do or whatever you figure out, you've got to figure out how that can happen without even asking for a lot of help to get um, you know, whatever needs to be done. It's odd to think about, but I mean it. I tell these stories sometimes about when I was in the Army and then I'd be asked to do things that I felt were beyond my capabilities. But it was also great because they put this responsibility on you. Like being asked to do aerial platform support with a sniper rifle in Afghanistan. I'm like, what the hell I've never done? How does that work? And you have to like ask your squad leader to teach you how to do that real quick before you actually go out and do it. I mean, did you encounter situations like that in in the intelligence world? Um, like what you're just mentioning where some guy comes to you and it's like, hey, can you do this and that? And it's kind of like it's all on you, brother, Like you got to figure it out and hopefully you don't screw it up. And especially if it's a compartmentalized program. I mean, you can't ask for anyone else's help. Yeah, you know, there's a saying that Richard Branson says I saw him one time, which is you know, somebody presents you with an opportunity, you know, sees it and figure out how to do it later. Um, you're messing with people's lives. But admittedly there are a number of times when I said, oh, absolutely we can do that. Um. And if it's getting somebody in discreetly into a certain country or setting up a business in another location, um, yeah, yeah, we can do that, no problem to walk as a serious pucker factor of well let's figure it out. Um. But I think that while there may be a little bit of you know, some ego to that, or just a desire to be part of something and doing it, I think there was a realistic element to it where I did believe that I would do everything possible and go further than most other people would be so that if I said no, I can't do it and they went to somebody else, I firmly believe that for the type of work that I was doing, I was going to be one of the top that they could find to get that stuff done. The protagonist of your new book, Buried in Black Uh, is a guy who served in you know, one of these compartmentalized programs, was working for unit that's commonly referred to as an Intelligent Support activity. UM. We'd sometimes call the call them t FO task Force Orange. Uh. You know, all the Special Operations units like Rangers were Task Force read. They all had colors. I know you know this, Uh, but some of our listeners might not. Task Force Orange was I s A UM or a certain part of I S A and UM. That's honestly, that's probably the organization within Special Operations that we talked the least about. I mean, because they're very small, and they're very secretive, and you don't necessarily know what those guys are up to. So I mean, can you tell us a little bit about what this organization is? Sure? UM, I'll say what what my general public understanding is of the organization UM, which is in you know, it's it's intelligence support to activities or it's actually conducting those activities that largely grew out of UM, the the hostage taking in Iran years back, UM, and and afterwards, you know, there are some talk of can you focus on a unit that can do that type of support UM, focusing not only on the human intelligence side, but also bringing the technology. Uh so the signals intelligence, you know, communications intelligence. So you're wrapping that up to be that entity that you can do advanced force operations UH with and be the kind of kind of the first guys in UM blending into that social fabric UM, but also doing a lot of the real nitty gritty technical things. So if you've read any of the books about killing Pablo UM, you know, the Pablo Escobar and the support that they gave to a d e A UM. There's a lot of work that has been done and reported on about Lebanon UM against his blah. So that type of work is really you know, it seems to blend in now to a lot of missions that that DELTA might take on. But there was more of the focus at the time of the signals intelligence capability from you know what's been reported out there. I mean, in addition to the operational preparation of the environment stuff that they've been brought on to do. UM. Correct me if I'm wrong, But one of the main reasons why they were created was because the Army needed tactical intelligence as opposed to the strategic intelligence that the CIA usually specializes in. Yeah, that's my understanding too, and that it did grow from the Army and then was later UM rolled up under Jay Sock. Yeah, UM do you I mean, I wonder if you could comment on the overlapping nature of some of these missions, because when you talk about some of the other Jay Sock units, UM, even Ranger Battalion, I mean, all these elements have their own reconnaissance capabilities. UM. You know, Dev Group has Black Squadron, Uh, Delta Force has recky guys, recky troops, UM, Rangers have you know, even Ranger Battalion has their own ciging guys. Now, UM, how does how does a unit like I s A fit in in today's world and today's special operations structure? Well, again, you know, in my in my opinion, to a large degree, and from what I've seen, you know, one of the challenges that special operations community has today, as they said, you know, they want a Harvard graduate that can win a bar fight. UM. In many ways, I think that you will find that I s A. UM, you know, candidate UM would fit a little bit more of that than than some of the other units. If you think about say Delta, where a lot of people are coming up from Ranger Battalion. UM, maybe through Special Forces. You know. One of the reasons that I created Drake Wolf. The way I did is that he was a ranger tabbed sot A UM and that's something also that you don't hear too much about, but these are you know, the SIGAN communications specialists that are trained to you know, conduct communications intelligence, but then can also engage UM, especially if you've gone through UM UH, if you've got the ranger tab UM. So in this case, you know, I'm taking of what I think, and I think that this is also something that will evolve more and more as the roles are increasingly technical. Is you're going to have to figure out how to groom individuals that are technically savvy UM and kind of run them up through ranks where they can, you know, get into a specialized unit like that. And I'm not saying that, you know, any of the other special mission units don't have people like that, UM, not at all. But I think that if you're looking for that specialized type capability to go in, I think that you're going to find that there will probably need to recruit increasing batch of those type of people. And that's also one of the reasons that I wanted to write about the UM this in this series of a book. And this is more kind of a personal um matter was that when I went through Army RROWTC in college, everybody was artillery there. So I never really understood what the full gamut was of opportunities for me and UH and and I I hold that a little bit begrudge Lee because I did have UH an interest in intelligence. I did have an interest in technology, but nobody could really tell me what that was. So one of the reasons I also wanted to put this out there was there are a lot of young readers who might be so inclined to to look at the military, and I want them to also be able to say, Okay, you could be a gamer, you could be a hacker, you can still want to do this type of thing, but let me nudge you a little bit into an area and and a bit of a pathway of how you can get into it. Which is why I showed some of the backstory of Drake Wolfe the bird Dog, in how he you know, kind of came to the ranks of you know, the back door, so to speak, into the special Operations community and UH into being able to move up to the tier one. And so there's a number of elements in the story where you know, people are you know, uh, ribbing him for being support, which if you talked to any SADA guys, it's you know, the one thing that they absolutely hate hearing is that their support. Um. But that's you know, you know that's that's what it is. That's how it is. And uh and you know he holds his own you know something that an Army Intel friend of mine uh told me. He's like, you know, for for guys like you, uh talking to me in my case, like guys like you Special operations guys, your pathway is pretty clear and laid out in front of you. Uh that you know, if you want to go and be a ranger, there's you know, you go to the Ranger indoctrination program, you go to Ranger of Battalion, you do your thing, you have a ranger school. You know, if you want to keep going stay in the army, it's very clear how you go to be a jasock operator. You go to Delta Force selection, you do the long walk, you go through the operator's training course. Like it's all very clear. But if you're in that intelligence world, it's not clear at all. It's just you know, if you go into Army Intel and you're a smart guy, you're in good shape, you know. You you go past the ranger school or whatever that you just get sucked up into some program and nobody hears from Again, Yeah, I agree, and uh, and that was one of my grapes, you know, even in what I learned, you know this like twenty five years now, back now, in college, UM intelligence was order of battle, you know, so you're still looking at troops size. They didn't get into a lot of the nitty gritties of what intel could be, what the capabilities were for counterintelligence. And I think that a lot of people who even do go through those schools still find it a little bit challenging to see UM where they can go, because again, you're getting into the element of highly secretive capabilities. Most of the times when you're getting into the signals intelligence side, you're dealing with N S, A and and you're taking things to a whole new level because now all of a sudden you're talking about not only is somebody coming in the secret the top secret clearance level being compartmentalized in certain you know, read and areas, but then for some you're going straight into polyg raft area. And I mean I would encourage people, although they are fairly well redacted. If you go and read the in scomb annual reports UM that have been declassified from like the seventies and eighties, you can start to glean some ideas of what Army Intelligence Command is up to or has been up to in the past, and and see that this stuff is out there. Um, there are some interesting programs, some interesting things going on there. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and there there is if you do the searches, even for Intelligence Support Activity FOG how it originally uh, the Field Observation Group UM where that kind of derived. That's that's kind of the pathway that you can get without you know, anything being disclosed too much. I wanted to ask you too about, um, some of the things that you see and buried in black UM, where you have a intelligence professional who is literally just off the grid, like and in in Drake's case, in the protagonist case, I mean they fake his death basically. Are there cases like that where things like that actually happened where it's like happy Birthday, Frankenstein, the old you is dead and you're you're literally just a new person. I mean, does stuff like that happen in real life? Yeah? Um, you know, I don't know of anything like that. I'll I'll just say this, I have never been asked to bring somebody back from the dead or to you know, put documents together or anything like that. So whether it happens or not, I've got no idea, I think, and I did think that. I addressed that also in the book where you know, you've got somebody that's thinking, it's such a great idea that we're just gonna, you know, kill off Drake Will if he'll be able to operate in the shadows like so many of these novels, and my old hero Shawn Havens is in there. He's like, are you kidding? This is so stupid because here you are, You're still gonna be living in the US. He goes, what are you gonna want to do? And it's a class reunion? What do you want to do? And it's you know, it's a family dinner or something like that. He goes, you are cut off from everything, and there's really no way that you can escape that unless you are entirely off the grid. I think. So it's like even makes that comment that like, look, if you're going to remain in the intelligence business, you need to capitalize on your relationships with people. How the hell are you going to come back from the dead and ask somebody for a favor, ask somebody for a job or whatever whatever in the case. And these guys are gonna be working still around the Beltway. And so you know, how is it that you're you're gonna have you know, people delivering to your house every day, or you know, are you not gonna ever go into public and and see anybody. So those are the types of things. I mean, I think that it's an easy way for us to you know, make a hero seem like they're operating in the dark a little bit more. But I think what you have, um more commonly is that individual who has just rolled up into a commercial type active and uh and and they're able to just you know, go out more the law and have a family. That's a lot more plausible than you know, maybe those onesie twosies that could still be roaming you know, out out in Europe, Africa or Asia. That's you know, completely off the grid, and it's you know, it's that's it makes great stories. It's uh, it's funny because I knew a few people who went to the selection course for I s a UM and a few of the people who actually got who became, you know, operators in the unit. I mean some of them were very smart guys. A few of them were like bacon eating crusader types. Is like, oh my god. Really, but um, it's funny because some sometimes they come back and the guys who get selected, they come back and they already have this bullshit cover story like oh, I'm getting out of the army and going to law school. It's like, no, you're not. Why are you even trying to pull the fleece over my eyes with this? I you know, I saw there. There's a reason I gotta be careful how I phrase this. But there was an individual who was supposedly covered in a US department. Um. Okay, so you know, maybe one that we might think about in in you know, the Upper North or something like that of the US, but he was still residing in Washington, d C. On his LinkedIn profile. Um. And there are just a lot of things that don't match. And you know, one of my jobs was to make sure that something did match. And uh. And I think that's still kind of a frustration I have with the community sometimes in slapping these covers together. You know, you get on special roster and someone's like, well, what do we make this person? Well we plug them into this to that. But if you look at things that they're posting on social media. You know, I think you even reported on that about some of these guys using the run tracking out in the Middle East. Yeah, and so you know, here you've got somebody's posting on social media just conducted a run, I just did a ride or a swim or something. But it doesn't fit at all what it's saying that they're supposed to be doing. So you've got to fit the cover to their actual pattern of life. And you know that's how we made things seamless. Um, all I can say is today you get what you pay for. And there's a lot of g S twelves that are doing that work. I mean, what's your take on, you know, Army of the let's just say, the Department of the Fence trying to do cover. Because I've had people come to me and say that the d O D and Jay sock and they don't really know how to do cover at the end of the day. And that's really something that's the purview of the of the c i A. You know, I even I would even say that the CIA struggles. Um, these guys are you know, Jay Sock is in the is in the military business. C i A is in the intelligence business. When you're covering somebody, you've got to be in the business business. And so you have to understand and that to walk like a duck talk like a duck in the business community, you've got to understand it from that business mindset. You've got to understand. There are more uh cover entities that have been rolled up around the world, not because counter intelligence found him, but because the tax man found him. Um, I've got in you know, in buried in black. I've got I think in chapter one, you know, Drake is working on an IBM think pad. But that IBM think pad was like an older version. It had been procured from India and kind of routed up. So even the technology that you're bringing and carrying around, Uh, he had to have some old, beat up shoes. He had to have pants that weren't you know, coming from you know, weren't five eleven's. Uh, you know, it's it's got to look like you're supposed to look like. And I think that's missed because that's hard work. Those are hard details. I think the last time we talked, you know, two thousand and sixteen, I had shared and of how at one point somebody decided, Okay, we want to go into this particular country and we're going to kind of put our stuff in a date truck, and we asked, well, what kind of dates are they going to be? Well, what do you mean what kind of dates are going to be? Well? Are they the type of dates that are imported? The type of dates that are exported? Because if you're bringing certain table dates from this particular country their crap, and anybody that says, okay, you're bringing this in, it's going to get the ice scrutiny, like why the hell are you bringing this in? Um. So that's you know, those type of things that you've just got to know the subtle nuances and in fairness to these these these elements, they're busy doing what they have to do, and sometimes you have to bring in experts that understand how to make things really work like that pattern of life would be in that country. I was wondering if we could get a little bit into the actual uh, meat and potatoes of buried in Black because I think the plot is very interesting to me in that it's about allies of ours in Iraq that feel we sold them out and they're retaliating against UH, primarily against US Special Forces here in the United States and some of the places you write about, um in your novel, where American SF guys are attacked and Delta operators you know, retired or current, are attacked, or places I've actually been and had beers with retired Delta Force operators and I'm like, holy shit, I know exactly what bar he's referencing, uh down in North Carolina and uh. You know, when I've been to some of these places, I've had the same thoughts that clearly you had, that like, holy sh it, Like for somebody who is up to no good, Um, this is a soft target. Yeah. Um, I mean it is what it is. There are when if I go down to Tampa to see my friends, I know exactly what bars are going to be in so everybody else. Um, the same thing goes with Fayetteville or any other place. Um. People are creatures of habit And I think that that's just that's the reality of it, and it is really one of our vulnerability so you've got two sides of this. You have one which is that you know, by and large, you know, when when we go overseas, especially if you're dealing with special forces, UM, you've got some some guys that are really culturally minded and really enjoy being enmeshed in those with those people. UM, and so you make friendships and things do come out, um, personal things. And so, as I shared in the book, you know, these guys were sharing videos of their families, showing pictures of their family after the war, UM, liking you know, friending them on Facebook. Yeah, friends of the Iraqis I trained on Friendbook. And and so how many of those terms? How many of the mohawks? Um, we're we're told, yeah, we're gonna get you guys out of here. You guys have helped us. We know that you're in danger. We're gonna get your family out. So when and somebody's tour is up and they're out of there, somebody else comes in say, hey, I was promised. Um, you know where is this that is that's something that actually happened. I mean, did they lie to these guys? Because you're writing about dudes who are down in Baghdad? I was up north, So I don't know anything about that. I mean, did we did we as a country, either officially or informally, lie to these guys and tell them we're going to give them visas to come to the States. I don't know that that's necessarily policy of what somebody had done, but I know that there's a lot of individuals that made promises because it's just something that you just, you know, just kind of let me see what I can do. Something you have to follow through on. Yeah. I mean, here, you're trying to get somebody to help you, and so you're gonna say, hey, you know, we're you know, I need I need you to help us with X, Y or Z in your country. And then they're like, hey, but by the way, do you think you can get my family out to to us? You know we're no, but still I want you to do what I'm asking you to do. So we tend to say, yeah, I think I can make that happen. And and then what do they do. They go to somebody from the state Department say, hey, how do we how do we help these guys out? Well, they'd have to do this paperwork, they'd have to do this paperwork, and so I think oftentimes we give them that, but to really follow through and make it happen. As we know it doesn't often happen, and as we know more stories, there are a lot of innocent people who were butchered and then those families and families because of the retaliation. UM. I mean, I just think about what would what would what would you do? You know, if that happened, you'd have an ax to grind and if somebody gave you that way to get back at someone, which you know in this case, the I R. G. C. Kut's forces is being that puppet master um to get the Mohawks back into the US, And that would be my biggest concern, would probably even be a bigger state actor than Iran. But let's just say, if you're a country, fuck it. Let's just be real. If you're a country like China and you're about to retake Taiwan, or you're a country like Russia and you're about to invade uh Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, you might look for some ways that you can sabotage the American response before it ever gets off the ground. And I would be concerned with a major state actor like that going to some of these neighborhoods and communities like you mentioned in Tampa or in North Carolina, where you know, just before D day in h hour, maybe you just go and take these dudes out so they don't even have the opportunity to begin responding. Yeah, UM I would agree, And that's it's it's a serious concern. You know you mentioned earlier, you know how well does d O D or in this case, you know d I A really handle UM creating covert identities and things of that nature. Will when the UM, the National Clandestine Program was starting to be rolled out where they were going to do human intelligence, you know that the new process that came out from d I A. I don't know, maybe six years back. UM I was one of individuals that red team that program to show how even though somebody wouldn't necessarily have to have the list of all the people who were going to be going dark overseas, we could show based on the pattern of life and how things work, of people moving, putting their houses up for sale, how they were transported by the g s A requirements. We were able to roll up almost half of that network before it even happened by just showing them how China or Russia would be able to identify those people that were coming in overseas and being able to label them right away. So, whether it's from overseas or the US, our patterns and our habits are it's it's a it's a vulnerability. Plus with everyone carrying smartphones around. I know there were special operators who are overseas live streaming uh stuff from the stool back to their pals in the United States over you know, open nets just on a smartphone uh um. And that's what we did that one particular bar that you're talking about, you know, when these guys came in, So the mohawks understood how to do certain you know, signals intelligence based on what they were doing in the internet bars. So they're able to pull up all of the phone I P addresses, UM, MAC I D s and and here, you know, you've got these guys who are you know, tier one, but yet they're in a local neighborhood bar. They're open to using the WiFi. So as soon as something went down, the bad guys were able to triangulate, okay where the links now to these phone calls coming in or out and they recognize that those were going to be um, you know, the spouses, and from there they're able to track that by just geolocation. So it's you know, we put it out there. So I mean, riddle me this. I mean, what if you're to take pictures. Um, let's say you're to go on David's where the Department of Defense uploads all their open source photographs, copyright free photographs. If we're to go and look at all the open source Rangers school and West Point graduation photos, these institutions that act as feeder mechanisms for covert programs, pull the biometrics off, run all of that through social media. How many people are gonna get popped right off the bat? And has D O D even begun to think about this problem yet? I don't think. I don't know that they have or not to the level that they need to get something done. The one thing that always cracks me up, and I know sometimes I just make some kind of snide comments on Facebook or Twitter, is all the team photos that you operators put of, you know, the bandalarros of, you know, you got the ammunition, you've got, you know, let me, let's all stand out there with a flag and let's stand out there with our weapons and maybe we'll you know, black eye some people and black face this guy and put a bar over here over there. Yeah, you guys take a lot of damn pictures. And I've always wonder, you know, is it you know you're going out and say, hey, wait a second, guys, let's you know, team photo here. And I think that so much of that that's posted out there of you know, here's the team. Um, it's pretty easy, especially with facial recognition and being able to put those links together, that you could put together a squad very very easily. UM. I mean we do it against our foreign adversaries. It's it's really simple to do. Yeah, I mean put out there. I've done it as a journalist. I mean when you're working on a story and you have to figure out who's who and you know, who should I go talk to next? Um, all of those become like little data points. There are little puzzle pieces that you put together. UM. And Instagram especially is heinous. I'm like, some of this stuff on there is shocking that ends up getting posted. I was having a beer once with a retired Delta Force sergeant major and he was like, there are these like Delta fanboys on there on Instagram, and just from looking at photos that have been posted on on social media, they've basically cracked the UH, the the call sign patches that they all wear and and understand the organizational structure of the unit. These are like fourteen year old kids to code and call sign patches are finding on open source photographs. So, I mean when you have a major UH intelligence organization like the m s S or the FSB or the I r G C, Cuts Force, whatever the cases, and you can only imagine what the hell they've done. Yeah, And you know, I think a lot of the reasons that we do post those for a lot of guys, you know from the military side, do is look, they've they've been through a lot, they're highly trained, they're usually armed to the teeth, and I know that usually that bravado is yeah, come ahead, come get me. Well, I got news for you. If I'm looking to target somebody, I'm not going for you. I'm not going for the arm ground, looking for the easy fight, and I'm looking for the family. And that's that's where I think it's missed, is if somebody was really that devious, really wanted to do it. They're not going for the for the hard target, They're going for the soft target. And that's what I try to at least put out there in the book, is you know, mind or ps and qs folks, because this is this is a weakness and these things aren't happening in a vacuum either. It's not just social media photographs. Our adversaries now have all the op M data that they can cross reference that with, and uh, you know how many other hacks and weeks and everything else that has happened over the years is just putting our adversaries into a totally different stratosphere. Yeah, and that's again goes back to Buried in Black where it started with. You know, some of these guys going through the op um um leaked information that was on the dark web. They were able to take that and then just put these pieces together. So I'm not looking to give anybody a playbook of how to do it. And so there's a lot of you know, segments that are left out, but it's it's easy to do, and it's just you know, hoping to just create a little bit of an awareness, you know, part of part of my background comes on the red teeming side and uh and in a lot of these programs are hardening these programs. So what I'd like to do now that I'm that I'm out is create some of this awareness in these books, not just so much. You know, some people say, well, are you giving away tradecraft? Like, no, I'm trying to tell you from an infrastructure devents infrastructure standpoint, this is broken and you guys need to fix it. But you know, how do I get it out? Yeah? No, that's it's frustrating. Um. I've definitely had people, uh, pretty angry with me saying I'm violating OPS sack and I'm giving away OPS sack And it's like, wait a second, who am I giving away opseck to This is like open source stuff that's out there, like the enemy knows, So like who is this information secret from? Is it secret from the bad guys? Or is it secret from the American public? Like who are we trying to keep this information from it? Then at this point, yeah, and you know, that was actually a good experience that I did have so my books, in this one in particular, I had to run it through D O D. I had to run it through N s A and I had to run into the CIA, okay, through all the publication reviews, so everybody got their chop at it, and you know, tell me what they suggested redacting or something that just needed to be taken out. There's only one time that somebody actually reached back out to me and said, we'd actually like to have a discussion about this because we would like to know how to fix this. So at least they were open to the to fixing things. Well, that's it. And so so what it was is, you know, it was nice to know because usually you figure, okay, it's somebody that you couldn't get promoted or something. Maybe that's sitting in some of these roles. Um, they're not the sexiest roles. I have to read a bunch of novels and go through and redact them because in many cases they're not it's not automated. Um, they're having to pick things out. But it was nice to know that somebody saw something and said I need to pass this over to somebody else. And then that person passed it to somebody else and checked it out, and that person said, let's let's have a little bit of a chat um. And so I'm happy to advise them on on how to you know, take care of this situation that that in particular I had addressed. But again, anything that they said, you know, they were a little bit squeamish about, I have no problem taking it out. Um. You know, anything that I put out there, it's usually you know, when I look at it in isolation, it's you know, is this classified? Can these any equities that are exposed? No, But you know, when you seem those two together and you can make analytical inferences, that's usually where somebody might say, hey, you know, I have a little bit of heartburn with it. And that's great because that's part of the process that I'm hoping is going to happen, so that those things are grabbed and uh and and nothing is disclosed in appropriately. So there may be something close like a lot of the keywords um on on some of the systems or something like that, especially the N S A ones. You know they're out there, but I'll just change them up a little bit just so that it's not um. I think the other thing I'm want to ask you was the characters in your and your in all of your books, but this one included They're definitely different than like what you would find in some of those other books in this genre. You know, like you said there's there's not or I said there's not so much flag waving. These are sort of cynical, uh, pragmatic, self interested actors working within a bureaucracy, and it almost feels like they've kind of lost touch of what it was they got into the game to begin with, or whatever they were fighting for at one point, like like there's just they've lost track of morality at some point along this journey. Um. Yeah, I just want to see if you can elaborate on on how you develop these characters and what this mentality is, where they come from, you know, part of part of again, I think a lot of this is the reality, especially with most of the characters that are in the book that are really seasoned and they've spent a lot of tours on They deal with the bureaucracy, they deal with the frustration, and sometimes it's the is it worth it? Um or if they know what has to be done to target a certain individual but they can't get the opportunity to do it. Um Again, You're waiting to cut through a lot of that red tape. Most of the guys that I know, especially a lot of the eighteen X rays that and I try. I addressed this a little bit in Prime Charge. Most of the soldiers that I know did not join the military because of a sense of duty, a sense of patriotism. Yeah, they did it because they thought it was cool. They thought it'd be fun. Um, it was something that was very much of interesting. A lot of the guys I know outdoorsman hunters, um, you know, they like that sense of adventure, they like that physicality. They can't see themselves in an office. This seems like a good alternative or a good opportunity. And don't like there's anything wrong with that. It's it's it's kind of weird how that everybody has to be put in this bucket of like, you know, my country called and I served, Like I think everybody who does do it is heroic. But it doesn't matter, Um, you know the reasoning behind it. If if you serve, you serve. And you you've spoken about that before. I remember you jokingly saying like I don't really care if civilians thank me for my service, Like I went from my own self reasons. It's true. I mean, I did it because I wanted to do it because it was important to me. Yeah, I mean, you know, somebody, but there's there's a lot of guys when you know somebody say hey, thank you for your service, and they're like, you know, I didn't do it to serve you. You know, I've got one buddy who just just loves it, absolutely loves it. So in these cases, I think that you've got well in Drake Wolf in particular. You know, here's a guy who was young, impressionable, His dad was in the c I A. Something happens to the family. Where does he go? Um, he's going under kind of a hard charging um former opera raider, uh, was in the Phoenix program. Um ends up being Jaysack J two. You know. So here you've got this guy who's who's really um, you know, very much mission focus and he's going to get this guy. He's you know, trying to shape and mold uh, this young kid into what he wants. Now, Drake's also got some some some mental issues and uh, but because of that and because of the secrets that he's holding, you know, he's not in a position where he can kind of hold back. And so what if you had somebody that really wanted to exploit that and just keeps pushing this kid and keeps pushing him. That's right. And because of the cloud that he had, he can get him into all of the programs, he can get him into all the qualification things. So he's getting the T shirts all along the way, and here he's sitting back. I don't really even want to be here, but this is all I know. This is what I do, and and that's I think. And then he's got that war, that war weariness where you know, he doesn't want to quit because it's not part of him. But yet it's just he's just dragging and dragging. And yet he doesn't really he doesn't want to kill himself for the sense of he just doesn't want to be there. He just doesn't want to be in the situation that he's in. And I think that's also something that speaks true to a lot of guys that have that have come back after a lot of um a lot of tours were that that have thought about killing themselves. Um it's not so much that they didn't want to to live, it's just that they don't want to be in that state of mind, in that state of physicality that they're that surrounds them and they want that change but don't know how to get it. And that's what I also try to weave in there. I think what came out in the book are One of the things I noticed was that the the UM intelligence professionals, if you will, in the book, they treat their subordinates, their fellow Americans. There are special operators almost like you know, you would expect to c I a case officer to treat a Somalian asset they've recruited that It's just like, like I said, use an abuse them, get rid of them, you know, like you're just here to help me get up a few rungs up the ladder or whatever it is, and then you know, move on. UM. It's a pretty cynical way to treat our our soldiers. And and also what comes out in it is you know, praying on the on the soldier's sense of patriotism. Yeah, you know, there's a there's a lot of problems I think with some of those hierarchies and even some of the inner agency UM involvements on some of these activities. UM. I put out a post the other day UM Jack Carr had had written something and and I was talking about, Oh, I was talking about being in DC. These guys are writing about you know, their their camp stoves and that, And I said, you know, I never had that problem. Some of the times of the Ritz Carlton over in the Beltway or over McClean and I must have been harsh. And I was thinking, you know, actually some of it was harsh from the emotional stay point of dealing with these policy makers who are thinking of sending somebody down range or certain taskings for missions. Um that you know, we're going to trickle down and you've got somebody that's got you know, the velcrow patch in the room, or you've got somebody that's got the embroidered monograms on the sleeve. And who do you think they listened to? You know, it's the it's the guy who doesn't have any of the experience. But that's uh that that's somebody that they relate to, or that they hold in a different regard to than than cannon fodder in many cases. Um So I think, you know, we try to work that also in and just really from what I've seen on both sides of working in the intelligence community, working with some of the policy makers how they view the soldiers, and then also being within the soldier mindset doing mission support, thinking back up to the Ivory tower of who's tasking them? And um, you know, are they really thinking about what's going on? And sadly, Um, in many cases, no, they don't. They don't care. It's you just do it because that's your job. And I mean they're also just so far removed from it. I mean, even a colonel. I mean it just seems like they hardly ever know what's actually going on. They talk a good talk about ground truth, but how many of them actually know it? Um. And it's not necessarily because they're bad officers. It's also just they're physically geographically removed from the situation that these guys are in. Yeah, there's there's a great movie. Um. I think it was called The Trader and it had done Cheetle Chidley. But he was like yeah, and so, um was it Jeff Bridges was he like the handler? So you've got you've got his handler, this guy's handler. So you've got the DC handler and he's like getting groceries out of this car and you know, he's getting a phone called the Kids are calling him, and then you've got the the operator, you know, the asked a who's in Africa or the Middle East whatever, and he's like looking for some type of a backup and help, and you know he's he's in a life and death situation. This is those guys like, you know, I really can't do what I can't talk right now, and it's just such a disparity. I found myself in a similar situation years back, where this girl was going into Lebanon to actually sit with his blah. And I remember I'm sitting in an office and I'm thinking, I'm looking at my watch and I'm like, am I gonna catch my plane back to Chicago or not? You know? And I'm like, I gotta get out of there, but I gotta help her, And you know, am I gonna catch hell if I'm not back? Um, It's it's two different worlds, you know, and uh, and you know, you just have to do the right thing and trust that somebody else's That's gotta be a weird feeling in a sense. It's like I was thinking about this the other day in regards to another situation, like, well, what's the end state for people in this kind of business. Like we all are very familiar I think at this point with like you know, special operations soldiers getting deployed over and over again and they come back and they have all these issues with PTSD. I mean, what's it like for a dude who's running intelligence support and you know you're in these stressful situations, there's lives on the line. I mean, do you end up developing PTSD or some other like psychological trauma from just living that lifestyle for a prolonged period of time. I don't know that that I always ever in as much of that as many others you know that probably have you know, more intense experiences from that standpoint, But I will say there's a certain disappointment. Um, when I stopped doing the mission support work and work for the intelligence community, it wasn't up to me. Um, it was during a time of sequestration. Uh, there's a lot of cutbacks. I wasn't living in d C. So people weren't going to be flying me out back and forth from Chicago, and I wasn't gonna going to move. I wasn't able to move. Um, So what type of jobs are there for for a guy like me? And I thought that I would be able to walk into consultancy or a bank and be able to say, I know exactly where the dirt is. You know where the where the bones are buried, because we've tracked the money, we know the players. I will help you route this out. And they said, no, hey, you want to you want to contract in Yemen. I might be able to hook that up for you. But but but the banks didn't want They didn't want anything discovered because then it would go into a compliant situation. They could find um. There's a number of times where I was on projects and I was told to you know, these guys are spending millions of dollars looking for um some illicit activity. And I was able to just go back through the court cases and see who some of the um uh the inquiries are about some of the allegations were. I was able to map the whole network and I said, look, we've got it. I can we can do a search right through here. You guys can put together a database. We can find doubt this whole network. And they said, yeah, but if we did that and we didn't do this data input for the next year. Uh, that's a difference between a two hundred thousand dollar project and a two million dollar project cutting down the billable hours. So you know, that's that's where the frustration UM really comes. And and that's where you do, you know, you want to be part of the mission UM, but but necessarily can't UM. And that I think that's that was harder for me. UM. It's one of the reasons that I kept writing UM. It's why I started doing some some contracts with some you know, service disabled veteran owned companies and working with them because there's a certain connectiveness. And I think that there's also something in the corporate world where you know, there is no loyalty UM, there is no bond, there's a lot of the backstabbing. You just don't have that same that mission mindset. UM. So in my you know, day to day life, I do a lot of work with UM with this group called Infraguard, which is an infrastructure protection between the commercial world and the FBI. And I'm able to act as kind of a segue because I can talk to the Intel analysts, but I can also talk to the commercial people. UM. You know, I get a lot out of that. And so that's that's that's kind of a good, good balance. Well, what's next for I mean, I know it's a little early since the book is just about what's what's what's next? Uh for your writing projects? Is uh? Is Drake going to get another book? Or is there anything else you're working on? Yeah? This is so, this is a three book deal. Um, So Drake is going to be still dealing with UM I, r g C. But you know in this in the second book, um the Presence of Evil, you know what happens if has a lot operative actually gets gets that you know, dirty bomb, the w m D. But what if the handlers in Iran realize okay, if this actually goes off, just screwed. And so you know, these guys are now having to send in a bunch of their operators to take out the Hezbollah network that they you know, have now thought, okay, this is a problem. We don't want to have more sanctions, we don't want ever tell it turns into like a three way fight, that's right. And yet at the same time you've got Drake who and his team are looking at it from huh, We're getting some signals here that the Iranians are sending in more operators. We gotta take them out. So I think that would be pretty interesting. Um. I've just turned in that manuscript, so that's in editing. And then the third one that I'm really excited about doing. And Jack, you and I you know, sat over a number of beers talking about this too, was um, it's it's called, um, what the hell is it even called the collision course? Um? And in this thing, it's it's going to be focused on Robin's sage and how you've got qualification course and that whole wilderness of mirrors of not knowing what is real what is not? Well, what if somebody exploits that and if as a murder in Pineland? And so I'm gonna throw my guys in the middle of that mess and uh and and and see if we can have some fun with that type of confusion that that could be. Yeah. I think last time I told you the story about the teams that accidentally go into their E and E corridors and the cadre don't see them for like two or three days until they're able to catch up with them. But yeah, hit me up about that down the line, and I might be able to put you in touch with some people who who work either volunteer or work out there at stage and some of the other courses pine ly into people. Um, maybe can help you out with the research a little bit, and that'd be great. I mean, you know, you know the books that I write, I'm not able to quit the job. I'm not making millions of dollars off these. I just want to have fun. I want the guys that have kind of been there, done that to read them, have a smile and say that's kind of cool. I don't think anybody's ever done you know, Robin Sage story. So I figured, you know, let's let's have some fun with that. So there's so many of the green Berrets out there that can look at it and say, holy crap, I could have seen that thing happening. You know, we thought the same thing. Or wasn't that fun? Um and a mess with that, just because you know, I just want somebody to be entertained. That's a little closer to it than than otherwise. Kensington has some heavy hitters too. I mean we've had a J Tata on the podcast former marine O No No. I'm thinking of Anderson Harp, former Marine, a J Tata, former Army Brigadier general. So it's kind of weird because I went to their little like banquet that they had. It was actually Tony Tata who invited me. And there's a lot of like romance novels on Kensington, but then there's a few there's like this niche group of guys who do what you do, bro bro bromance books. Yeah, you know it's and it's all on the editors. Um, John Gilstrap writes some great ones. He's got he's got adulta character that they're pretty good stories. And uh, of course Mark Cameron on the show there. So yeah, I think you know, they have they have their niche and uh, you know, the one thing about each of these publishing houses is they all want to have like their guy. You know, they're one guy who's going to go up against you know, Mark Greeny or Brad Taylor or whoever. You know, So who's your guy? And I think in you know, like where I'm coming in coming in through lyrical I think it's it's kind of like being in, you know, someone in the minor leagues of Okay, let's see if these guys, you know, if we throw them against the wall, who's gonna stick and who can be that next person. Um. So I'm just happy to have the opportunity to work with some of these guys. All the guys over at Kensington are great, um and really as you well know, Jack and and in you too, with you know, being on the UM the radio shows everybody in the military thriller community for the most part, it is really it's kind of fun to be around, and there's some great guys out there. There's a lot of give and take. Josh Hood and I you know, speak almost daily, just bouncing ideas back, so you know there's there's some there's some great folks out there. Mark Greeney has been fantastic. I just feel like, you know what I missed leaving that the mission support the intelligence community. I've kind of gotten it um back in the military thriller community, just because you've got so many like minded people, whether they served or not. Hey entirely off topic, but um for the people watching the YouTube video, which you know most people just listen to the audio. But I'm just curious, what is that, like sports memorability behind you. I'm trying to figure out what it is I've got. Let's see, so I'm in Chicago here, so we've got I was thinking there was something Michael Jordan. I saw the red and got street names up there. We've got Clark, Wavel and Sheffield back over the air hockey table. We've got all the Hawks stuff. We've got got some Bulls things over there. We've got other Cubs things, We've got the Christmas trios, and we're recording this free Thanksgiving Day. So so yeah, we like our Chicago sports around here. Nice. That's very cool. I was just curious, but um so follow A JT. Patton on Twitter at j T. Pattent Books j T p A T. T. E and Books JT. Patent books dot com and pick up the new book, Buried in Black. It's out, like I said, today is a recording it out this week. I guess as you're at Black Friday shopping or you know, most likely just on Amazon, pick it up. This is Yeah, it's good holiday reading. Good good book to get as a gift Christmas gift for family member that's into either espionage or counter terrorism, you know, military thrillers. It'll be up there alley. Like I said, I'm two d pages into it. I'm gonna finish reading it over the next day or two. Um, it's definitely worth picking up. Yeah, I think it's it's something at least different. You know, it's I wouldn't put myself in the classes some of these great writers, but I think it's all a fun story. It's something different. It's a unique vantage into the uh JSUK community. If you haven't seen it, so you know, give it a try, just to see if that might be something else that picks your interest. I don't think it gets too bogged down in the technical stuff either. No, I think it's a it's a very interesting, unique take and I think, uh, if our listeners go and read it, I think they'll come back to us and have a bunch of additional questions they're gonna want to ask you. Well, that sounds good, you know, happy to answer your questions or hit me up on social media, and especially about the micro dosing. Hopefully we'll have you back on. I mean the last time we had you on, as we were saying, a couple of years back, so it's been a while, um, and I'm glad that we did this again, and I'm sure we will in the future as as we're working on new stuff. And it's just cool to see you pumping out these books as as you said, it's not your full time job, and yet you're still making the time to continually do this and people love them. Cool. Well, thank you so much. Appreciate you'll having me on. Yeah, thank you. We'll do it again soon. See you guys. Have a good holiday, all right, you too, Thanks, appreciate it alright. So wrapping things up here, guys, be sure to check out Great Club. Uh that collaboration watch we did with the NFW watches Jack has it or you're not wearing today you've warned it but for But we have different tiers of membership depending on how prepared you want to be, and gift options are available as well. The guys from the load out room and Scott Whittner have a lot to do with what we're putting out there. It's gonna be all custom products entirely. It's a club foremen by men. You can check that all out of Great Club dot Us. Once again, that's Great Club dot Us. If you're a dog owner, doesn't matter the size of your dog, Kuna has a custom built box for your dog, so it doesn't matter the weight or the breed. They'll hook it up for you. UM, And that's our monthly box that we've partnered with Kuna for So that's Kuna dot Dog cu n A dot d O g sufficient and your dog's gonna love it. And it's easier for you, you know, just every month you're getting these great treats and training aids in the mail. UM, stuff like probiotics for a dog, which is you know, great keeping your dog healthy. UM. And that is a reminder. For a limited time, you can receive a fifty percent discounted membership to the spec Ops Channel. That's our channel that offers the most exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering the most exciting military content today. The spec Ops channel premier show Training Cell follows former Special Operations Forces as they participate in the most advanced training in the country, everything from shooting schools, defensive driving, jungle and winter warfare, climbing and much more. Again, you can watch this content by subscribing to the spec Ops Channel that's at spec ops channel dot com. Four a month. Really can't beat that for all the content. And uh, I'm sure many of you are enjoying a nice four day weekend, so I hope you enjoyed your Thanksgiving day, uh and are enjoying this post Thanksgiving Day. I am not gonna lie you. Guys watching the video may have noticed I'm getting a little antsy here because recording two shows you get antsy and your pants. I'm like, I'm just I'm fidgety right now because we've been sitting down for like, I don't know, a good four hours almost at this point. So yeah, yeah, we've we've recorded a lot. Yea. We knocked out two podcasts in one day, so we'd have, you know, an original episode for you guys over Thanksgiving. Well, we're out. I just holiday to Yeah, I just know it's a lot for me to sit down this long because I think even when I worked on long shows prior to this, you know, there's a little there's commercial breaks, I'm walking around. I couldn't tell you the last time I've just sat down this long, and I'm like, I'm ready to get up and start moving. Millennials, you're all a d D how much older you than me? I'm thirty two years old. I saw the topic of z zennial. Have you seen people put that out online? They said that, so I'd technically be as zennial. We're like the last people who grew up like without the smartphone. I think we're all in the same category as well. Yeah, yeah, And I think we talked about it before, like I had a walkman, you know, like cassettes. I mean, my parents had a record player. We saw the the blue screen Macintosh, remember all that screen, yea, the green screen and then the blue screen. Thinking, yeah, I couldn't imagine though growing up like social media immediately, I mean, like your daughter, it's interesting. Uh. But anyway, as I said, I'm not gonna lie getting fidgety here, I need to move around. Hope you guys enjoyed this episode and the last episode, and we'll be back on you know, Wednesday, will the new episode up. We have some great people coming on. We have a gold Star sister coming on and Quinn Emerson will be back on for the first time in a while. Then we have another weeks shows and then I am off to Florida for a week and I'm gonna make Uh. I already know what I'm gonna do. I think we we did some great stuff for Power of Thought that a lot of you guys have never heard. So I think I'm gonna play some of that, including what I believe is probably the last interview Captain Jerry Yellen did who flew the UM Final mission over Japan, and Brandon interviewed him on the Power of Thought. It's like a perfect software interview. So I think we'll put it on there. Uh, such a I was going to suggest, you know, just coming to the gym and recording me working out, but that's actually a lot better. Yeah, that would be cool, So I'll put that up. And and it's just such an interesting story that his son then married a Japanese girl from Japan, and that whole story of kind of like a coming together of two cultures. And I want to listen to this myself. It sounds like that Clint Eastwood movie. Yeah, it sort of is. And then shortly after that interview, Jerry Yellen passed away. So it was just great to get him on the show. I remember Brandon so so Jerry Yellen was still like flying around in his nineties and and Brandon invited him to come, you know, in the plane and everything, and he was like, yeah, I'm all for it. He was like, can I still do barre rolls and all that, and he was all up for it. But unfortunately couldn't you know, take take him up on that offer, because, like I said, just a few months later he passed away. But it was a great interview, so I think I'll use that. I may use like the c J. Ramon that we did in the Power Thought. But anyway, we're wrapping up November and then December and the New Year is right around the corner. As crazy as it is, Yeah, I mean, this is a crazy time of the year, always is always for me um podcast. Like I said, I mean, we're becoming a hot item. We got a lot of guests scheduled in. Yeah. Yeah, every there's like so many people I need to get and then Brandon will email me get this guy in the podcast. You two and I can only get people into the new year. Yeah, there's there's more people trying to get in then we can schedule unfortunately. Yeah, and then on top of that, I get the emails if you gotta get this guy, you gotta get this gun, and a lot of them are good. You know. It's just there's only so much we could do unless this was like a daily show. You come up with some people too, who I'm kind of skeptical about it first, but like they almost always turned out to be great. Like when we had Ricky Poe on, your friend that you know from the gym, like, it was fun. Yeah, I didn't know I had I don't know him or I didn't know him. I had no idea what to expect, but he was awesome. Yeah. Yeah, he's a really cool guy. So yeah, I mean, if someone is interesting, we'll add them on and they're a part of this community. And uh, I think generally mean that there there hasn't been a show in a long time where I've been like I wasn't a fan of that. I think we've been pretty concerned strongly. You know, you never know because sometimes you get people on who have never done podcasts before and never done and they get a little nervously as yeah, I belie've seen people, Um I think warm up, you know, like even Jeff Depozzi from JTS. Yeah, I think the first few minutes he was a little bit empty and then he got comfortable. Yeah cool. Alright, Well, um, I'm just stalling here because I want to hit our outro and uh wrap this up for you guys. But there we go. As I always appreciate you guys checking this out and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Yeah, happy Thanksgiving. Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving everybody. Hope you enjoyed, and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Software Radio. I don't say it often enough so you can follow Jack on Twitter at Jack Murphy r GR on Instagram at Jack McMurphy. You could follow me on Twitter at the Auto And that's really it. We're gonna have new poward thoughts coming up soon as well, so if you're not not subscribe to that, subscribe there as well. And that's about it. Guys, appreciate it. You've been listening to Self Rep Radio. New episodes up every Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter at self Rep Radio s