WEBVTT
00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:03.919
Hello, I'm Jamie Lee.
00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:08.160
I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics.
00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:13.519
And I help them get promoted, get better paid without throwing anyone under the bus.
00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:14.640
How?
00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:20.640
By blending proven communication strategies with brain-shifting neuroscience techniques.
00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:31.199
In this podcast, we explore the stories and strategies of Gutsy women and allies who've braved speaking up and navigated their careers forward.
00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:36.159
We're here to de-risk the conversations that feel the most daunting.
00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:39.679
Advocating for yourself and your growth.
00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:41.119
Let's dive in.
00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:43.920
Welcome to Risky Conversations.
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:46.000
And why risky conversations?
00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:51.439
Because everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation.
00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:55.520
And today I'm really delighted to have Irena Cosma.
00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:11.680
Irina Cosma PhD is an organizational psychologist, an executive coach with over 20 years of experience helping C-suite executives, leaders, and entrepreneurs become better at who they are and what they do.
00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:22.400
She specializes in expanding what people think is possible, helping them see more options when they feel stuck and develop the mindset of a possibility thinker.
00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:26.480
This isn't so much need right now, probably more than ever.
00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.760
So I want to hear more about Possibility Thinker.
00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:35.120
But also, Arena is a frequent contributor to Harvard Business Review.
00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:42.000
She teaches at Purdue University and has held leadership roles at Salesforce and Wells Fargo.
00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:52.239
And Irina is originally from Romania and she's lived in four countries and is now based in Charlotte, North Carolina.
00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:54.799
Welcome to Risky Conversations, Irina.
00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:57.040
Jamie, Jamie, thank you so much for having me.
00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:59.840
The title of your podcast got my attention.
00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.640
Such a beautiful title, such an important title.
00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:04.480
So so happy to be here.
00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:12.080
And speaking of risky conversations, you know, feel free to answer it whether professionally or personally.
00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:20.159
I am curious for you, what was one of the riskiest conversations that you've engaged in and why was it worth it?
00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:26.879
I think many times we are put in those types of situations, willingly or not.
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:29.599
And the question, how do we react and what do we do?
00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:34.400
Sometimes we initiate the conversation, sometimes somebody else initiates.
00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:43.199
I was at the receiving end on some conversations that were more like aggressive people screaming at me that I had no control on.
00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:50.400
But I will actually answer your question from a conversation that actually I initiated and I felt like I have more control on.
00:02:50.719 --> 00:03:00.639
So that's a story of a time on when in my innocence I decided to give feedback to my manager at the time.
00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:07.039
How young were you?
00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:12.159
And where were you in your career when you decided I'm going to give feedback to my manager?
00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:13.439
Such a good question.
00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:15.680
It was later in my career.
00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:17.840
Very good question, yes.
00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:29.680
In retrospect, if I have to think right now, yeah, I don't know when the pendulum tilted for me to be able to have this type of initiatives in my professional life.
00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:34.000
I would also say that on the same time, I'm from Eastern Europe.
00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:36.319
Eastern Europeans are known to be more direct.
00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:38.800
I, my personality is also very direct.
00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:49.599
So I wouldn't, I had other examples of me saying something that looked like risky a couple of times in my career, not on the feedback side, but other times.
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:58.479
So I think when one of your fundamental values is being violated, it's not like there is no, there is no much options that you have.
00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:04.479
It's like it just spills out of you because one of your fundamental values was violated.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:13.199
So now that you asked me this question, I remember early in my career, uh, fairness, which is one of my fundamental values, was violated.
00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:16.800
Back then I did not know that fairness is one of my fundamental values.
00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:22.399
But and I speak up when I said something that in retrospect looked like crazy and courageous.
00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:29.519
And the example that I'm about to give, it's another value that again is very fundamental to me, which is freedom.
00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:38.560
And I didn't feel like I have a choice not to take the action, not to give the feedback, not to have the courageous conversation.
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:44.399
That my brain couldn't know any other way than forward and doing something about it.
00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:51.920
And how was your like what was happening that you like?
00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:57.040
I have to give feedback because my fundamental value of freedom is being violated.
00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:05.360
I went through my career being pretty lucky on the managers I had, and all my managers usually gave me a lot of freedom.
00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:10.399
You know, you don't know what you have until in retrospect you realize what you had when you don't have it anymore.
00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:15.439
And I was very able, and they were very able to work with me, like the way I was.
00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:22.560
Like, give me something, I'll figure it out, I'll come back to you if I get stuck, if I make a mistake, be sure I'm coming and I'm going to let you know.
00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.160
So, how we correct the mistake.
00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:27.839
So they trusted me that I can figure it out and I can do my job.
00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:34.480
That was a wonderful gift that all these managers gave to me in retrospect.
00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:42.720
And when I encounter a manager that couldn't give me that gift, my brain was like completely in shock.
00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:43.759
Like, what's happening here?
00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:45.279
I didn't know what's happening to me.
00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:50.639
It took me a while to understand why I cannot breathe, why I feel like I'm in jail.
00:05:50.879 --> 00:06:02.240
And and when I realized, again, by then I already did the work on the values, and I know that freedom is one of my values, so I was more aware of what's happening and verbalizing them.
00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.000
So, yeah, like I was like, okay, what options do I have?
00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:11.600
The first option is to do something about it, try to influence something here.
00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:19.680
And again, I'm again I am having hard conversations with people because again, I don't know how not to have them many times.
00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.120
So this was like, let's figure something out.
00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:28.240
And I think it was a one-on-one, so I didn't schedule a special meeting to talk about this.
00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:44.800
It was during the one-on-one, and I was like, no, I mean, I I catch a moment that when she said like she had so much work to do, she stayed until midnight to finish some things, and and I knew that she is very much into my business and tries to figure it out everything that I'm doing.
00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:50.000
And I was like, I can take more, I can do more.
00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:55.199
Let me give me a little autonomy when you don't have to work until midnight.
00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:57.279
And give more to me.
00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:58.639
I can take more.
00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:00.240
Uh let me do work.
00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:06.000
I can do work, let give it to me, release it, and it's a win-win, you know.
00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:09.120
I get to do things that I love to do, and you have more free time.
00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:12.959
So it was like a very nice pre pre proposition from my point of view.
00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:16.560
You advocate for yourself, you advocate for yourself, yeah.
00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:29.360
Yeah, so even me again, me the direct one, try to be as I try to package as much as I could that conversation and not be too blunt or too rude in that conversation.
00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.480
And uh, to my surprise, again, I don't know how the conversation went.
00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:38.560
At one point, she did say, Oh, I got feedback before in my career that I should delegate more.
00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:42.000
I will try to do more of that.
00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:48.319
So I was like, I had a mixed reaction when I heard that because I was like, okay, so you know about it.
00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:50.000
It was said to you before.
00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:51.199
It's not news to you.
00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:52.399
So in a way, I felt relief.
00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:59.279
I'm like, ooh, I'm not saying something here that you did not know, so you can get aggravated with me.
00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:01.680
So you say information that you already had.
00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:04.800
But also I got a little skeptical.
00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:11.839
So she had this information for many years, and here she was not being able to make any change, as far as I could see.
00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:16.959
But she here she was saying again the words, I will try to do something.
00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:22.079
And again, me in my naivety and my innocence, I believed it.
00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:27.120
And like if a person says I will, I'm like, okay, let's see it.
00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.879
But uh, she couldn't, nothing changed.
00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.759
It became even a little harder, I would say, which again broke my brain.
00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:39.440
I'm a coach and I understand, I mean, logically understood what's happening.
00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:47.519
I mean, you know, we are coaches, you know how hard behavioral change happens, and even somebody needs to want and needs to put the work and time and energy and effort.
00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:49.600
That's a lot of hard work.
00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:54.559
So I understood that she didn't even know how to do the work.
00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:58.720
She didn't thought about asking to work with a coach, probably.
00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:00.960
So she was helpless.
00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:02.879
Even if she wanted, she couldn't.
00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:05.519
So that was a pretty interesting combination.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:15.200
And again, because I didn't know what else to do, I decided to go and have a second conversation with her.
00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.559
We were having a persistent, risky conversation.
00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:26.240
You're like, it's not enough that I was courageous once, and the leader heard me, she gave me a hint of self-awareness, but she didn't change.
00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:27.200
Let's try again.
00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:28.080
Persistence.
00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:28.559
Okay.
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:35.039
And then what happened when the second time you engaged your manager who was micromanaging?
00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:36.080
Yes.
00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:43.200
So this time uh she was not so willing to have a more amicable conversation.
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:50.559
We had this comp, I mean, I remember the words because I'm like, again, in retrospect, oof, I'm so sorry for a person like that.
00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:54.240
But in the middle of it, I was like, I mean, it broke my brain.
00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:57.919
She literally said that she needs to know everything that I do.
00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:07.440
And I tried to explain to her that in the 21st century, in a white-color knowledge worker type of environment, you cannot literally know.
00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:10.000
I cannot remember all the things that I did, also.
00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:12.559
And you cannot do this with all the direct reports.
00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:14.159
It's not humanly possible.
00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:17.120
I mean, it's not to me, this is a fact.
00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:19.759
And this is what I said, this is a fact.
00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:24.159
And she literally said, This might be a fact for you.
00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:25.840
It's not a fact for me.
00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.159
I need to know everything.
00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:33.759
So, this level of illogicality, I didn't know how else to do.
00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:41.919
And um, and what happened after that is that she scheduled meetings with me every day to ask me what I'm doing, what I'm going to do, what I'm doing, what I'm going to do.
00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.720
So again, pretty mind blowing.
00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:50.159
I'm very proud of myself that I had a lot of conversations, but again, to me, it was not even courage.
00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:52.480
It was like I it was a survival stuff.
00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:58.159
It was like that's the only thing I know what to do, how to make sense of the situation.
00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:09.039
So, so in hindsight, what did you gain from that experience that made this experience worth it?
00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:19.840
Because, you know, when somebody hears that, it's like that almost sounds like you encountered backlash for speaking up for yourself, you know?
00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.080
But you you gained something because the question was, why was it worth it?
00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:30.159
So, what did you gain in hindsight that made that experience worth having?
00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:35.679
In the retrospect, that was one of the biggest gifts that somebody gave to me.
00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.279
Whoa, that was one of the biggest gifts that somebody gave to you.
00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:40.159
Wow.
00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:45.200
And when did you learn that it was the biggest gift and what kind of gift?
00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:51.600
I realized it, I mean, I realized that portion of it after the fact pretty early.
00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:59.919
But when I fully realized it, when I had a client myself who came and told me a pretty similar situation.
00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:12.720
And I realized that if I would have met this client one, two years earlier versus meeting them now, made a very difference how I'm coaching and how I'm approaching that client.
00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:20.480
So that client was very lucky that I had that experience and I was able to be a better coach for them because I had that experience.
00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:23.039
So that was kind of broke my brain in the moment.
00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:26.639
I was like, oh my god, out of approach is so much different a couple of years ago.
00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:38.399
And now, because I had that experience, I could I could see an alternative option in reality that I was not being able to see maybe one or two years ago.
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:44.159
And this is a difference, and this is, I know we're talking about this particular example, but I don't know if you can agree with me on this.
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:51.840
There are things that we intellectually understand, but it's not the same if we emotionally understand them.
00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:52.879
Right.
00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:54.799
So this is a difference.
00:12:55.039 --> 00:13:09.759
The more experiences we have, even if they are pretty traumatic and pretty negative in the moment, then it in retrospect, they all become experience that allow us to empathize better, to understand better the realities of other people.
00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:15.840
So it's kind of painful that you have to go through that pain in order to understand somebody else's pain at the same level.
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:23.679
Otherwise, you can understand it theoretically, you know, you can understand it logically, which is pretty good, but it's not the same.
00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:35.120
So may I ask how you did coach this client who was going through a similar experience as you, micromanaging manager, resistance to resistance to feedback.
00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:37.600
Yeah, I'd assume those are the similarities.
00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:42.000
And maybe just to generalize a very difficult manager.
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:43.200
A very difficult manager.
00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.279
But very difficult that she was mentally exhausted.
00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:49.039
She didn't know what else to do.
00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:53.279
And uh, how would I have coached her a couple of years before?
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:57.120
I would have gone very heavily in influencing.
00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:58.480
And what else can you do?
00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:05.279
And how else, and where else, and what words, and in other words, who who are the other people you can speak to?
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.320
Is that what you mean by influencing, or do you mean something different when you say influence?
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:10.960
Both direct influence or indirect influence.
00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:14.399
Strategic influence is one of my favorite things to culture on.
00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:20.159
And I think our life it's continuous moments of strategic influencing.
00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:29.039
So I would have found a way, like okay, let's find a way, let's think, let's play three-dimensional chess, let's uh what, when, how, what do you prepare differently?
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:30.799
How what's the sentence you are saying?
00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:34.000
How I would have pushed a little harder on that.
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:41.600
Now I feel like there are multiple options, and one option is to remove yourself from the situation.
00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:44.639
Yeah, try all of this, definitely give again.
00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:46.399
I gave it a try twice.
00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:48.480
So definitely play with it.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:54.799
Uh but have realistic expectations of what's possible and if and when and how people change or not change.
00:14:55.759 --> 00:15:00.799
Try to diversify the option that you have available.
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.039
Because now I understood that, but again, I didn't know the manager.
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:10.799
This manager might have been a more agreeable manager that would have made an effort and made a change.
00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:11.279
I don't know.
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:16.720
So this time I didn't say, let's not do anything, let's just find another job for you.
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:20.320
But I say, okay, let's have more realistic expectations.
00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:27.200
So even this idea of realistic expectations and hope for the best, prepare for the worst, or the other way around.
00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:30.639
Give her more credit that she knows what she's talking about.
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:35.039
And that creates when you say that who are we giving credit to?
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:40.240
Are we giving credit to the client or are we gonna giving credit to the micromanaging manager?
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:51.440
The client that they understand, and I I again I would have pushed it more like it's possible, there is a way we can find it, you know, and sometimes you cannot find it.
00:15:51.759 --> 00:16:02.399
And again, I calibrated my own realities and expectation of what's possible because again, in even me going to that person twice, it tells you a lot about me because I think it's possible.
00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:08.159
I really think it needs to be like you need to tell me no many, many times for me to stop.
00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:17.039
Yeah, this makes me think of how you know I I coach clients who encounter difficult people at work, and you know, sometimes I ask them, what do you want them want to happen?
00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:18.960
And they're like, I want that person to change.
00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.000
And I'm like, Yeah, but they're not in the session, right?
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:26.639
The only person you can influence or change is yourself, right?
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:36.000
And so what I'm hearing is when you expand the scope of possibility, it it you know, realistic includes let's acknowledge we can't change other people.
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:41.279
We can in we can give our best effort to influence their decision making.
00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:50.720
And we also take a wider perspective and think about who are the other players, other people who can help influence that decision making.
00:16:50.960 --> 00:17:03.759
But what I'm hearing is hey, just acknowledging that people can't change, some people don't change, is also part of it's part of all the options that you you know lay on the table.
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:05.839
It's like all the cards are on the table.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:06.319
Yes.
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.880
This person doesn't change, we can leave.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.079
And that could be the best thing that happens ultimately.
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:12.799
Yes.
00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:18.000
And even now in I always give them a glimpse of hope because I want to still believe.
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.480
I say, you know what, maybe it's an exception.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:22.880
And in this case, maybe this person can change.
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.359
But again, right, we cannot bet on that.
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:26.000
Exactly.
00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:28.880
Let's not bet on other people changing so you can feel better.
00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:35.680
It's like no, why don't you took ownership of how you want to feel and what you want to change?
00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:37.359
Okay, excellent, excellent.
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:47.200
So I I guess we sort of already touched on this, but I want to I want to learn about your possibility thinker framework, right?
00:17:47.359 --> 00:18:00.079
So I'd imagine based on what you just shared with you, part of that is like explore options and expand them, but maybe you can walk us through what does it mean to be a possibility thinker and how do you become one?
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:10.960
Yeah, I'm imagining somebody who has kind of almost absolute freedom, like somebody who can always count that there is something they can do about a situation.
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:12.880
So that's the fundamental thing.
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:17.359
Like how you never feel stuck, like again, how I mentioned earlier, like I felt like I was in a jail.
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.000
I felt like I was like, I didn't know what was happening to me.
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:24.480
So I want everybody who we are going to be in those situations, we are going to feel like that.
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:31.759
My hope is that we have some tools to get ourselves out of that a little faster than otherwise without having this mentality.
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:37.599
And this concept started with me starting writing a book in 2023.
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:46.960
So when I started writing the book, it was not so much a framework or just like individual strategies that I knew I'm doing with my clients in my coaching sessions.
00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:51.599
And fundamentally, this is over time I this is the words I start putting on it.
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.920
I was like, what I do with these people actually, I'm opening their brains.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:57.920
They come to me and they say, I don't see it.
00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:01.519
I cannot, I don't know what else, I don't know how.
00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:06.319
And from my vantage point, I'm like, oh my God, there are so many things you can do.
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:09.440
And I need to stay there with them for them to see them also.
00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:20.240
So this idea of open up the brain of the person in front of me, and how I do that in my point of view is giving them alternatives, show them how many possibilities.
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:24.079
So when you are stuck in jail, like oof, you're not in jail.
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:25.599
Here is there are so many things.
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:28.559
What and like how you said, put let's put all those things on the table.
00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:35.839
Some of them might not be ideal, some of them you might not like, some of them will be difficult, some of them might not be plausible, but they are all there.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.440
So let's talk a little about them and see what happens when we talk about them.
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:49.839
So over time I came up with this framework of inner possibilities, relational possibilities, and process possibilities.
00:19:50.079 --> 00:20:00.000
So each of them have different strategies under them, and yeah, so that's that's and it's fundamentally what I'm working with my clients.
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:09.279
And you might be one of the first people to to hear about this, but I just sign a contract with Ratledge for a book based on this framework.
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:15.039
So by the time this podcast will come live, I will also announce the world at one point.
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:23.119
But that's that was a book that I started three years ago and went through different permutations, and the framework came into my brain.
00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:32.880
I had the concept, the idea, but it was kind of separate topics, and then they all got some shape and became a more coherent framework over time.
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:35.920
Congratulations! This is very exciting.
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:41.039
And inner relational and process possibilities.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:48.160
So do we start from inner or do we start from does it matter where you start from?
00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:53.200
In theory, no, but in practice, I think it's always better to start with inner.
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:54.960
And how do you know?
00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:00.880
But we'll let you know that you're you're like expanding the scope of inner possibilities.
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:07.920
So inner possibilities are ideas, like uh as if I remember all my three, four strategies.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:11.119
Even the first chapter in the inner possibilities.
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:18.079
So again, inner possibilities are things that you can do with you inside of you, and once you do them, nobody can take them away from you from you.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.960
And this is another thing, like when people sometimes say, Oh, I have to start from scratch, I have to start from zero.
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:30.880
I'm like, oof, you never start from scratch, you never start from zero because you have all this foundation that you build that you know and you are aware, so it's never zero.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:40.319
For example, one thing you can do, and it's all of them once I'm going to share, they are so basic, but all of them so hard work.
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:56.000
One of them is just literally learning a little more about how the brain works and understand a little what this piece of meat in a dark place, as Lisa Feldman Barrett says, what's the deal with this piece of meat in a dark place?
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.599
How much actually power and control can we try to insert into?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:12.480
It so just learning a little about that, I know it gave me a lot of options and possibilities and freedom, knowing that you know I can do this, I can do, I can influence it.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.519
The brain shouldn't tell me what to do, I should tell to the brain what to do.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:22.240
And there is a lot of things like I'm keep learning, I'm not a neuroscientist, but I'm reading and watching a lot of neuroscientists.
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:29.839
And I think by the book comes out, it's going to that will be the chapter that will need to be updated the most because there are so many things that we learn from this field.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:33.440
So even that, that's uh like just information.
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.960
The other thing that I don't know if you experience this with your own clients.
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:45.599
One thing that I do in all of my coaching sessions, the first coaching session, I give them some assessments and we do a debrief.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.319
The first session is a debrief of the assessments.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:55.119
But one question that I ask before we go to the assessment, I ask them to tell me about their strengths and development areas.
00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:07.039
I don't know, maybe for you the different population, but for me, I think majority of people they have to think what are their strengths.
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:08.720
Yes, right.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:11.279
And they're like, oh, let me think about it.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:17.119
Okay, maybe then, maybe that, and they're rambling and it's not coherent and it's not clear, and they forgot the first one until they said the last one.
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:18.960
So it's a little messy.
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:32.720
So my what I'm trying to sell here is the idea that if you are crystal clear on your strengths, that's something that nobody can take away from you from you, and it's something that you can count on.
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:37.440
Whenever you are in a challenging situation, whenever you are under stress, under pressure.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:38.720
The same with values.
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:44.559
You know, like we just heard the example how my value move me to action of freedom.
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:52.400
Once you know your strengths and once you know your values, things become easier, not easy, easier.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:56.319
You are in trouble, and relationship building is one of your strengths.
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.799
Go deep into relationship building, talk with people, reach out to people.
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.160
Do one of my superpowers is speed.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:12.400
When I'm in trouble, when I'm like, oof, speed, I can do lots of things at times, like I can move mountains in a very short amount of time.
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.319
So I know I can count on that.
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:23.039
So if it's crystal clear, it's in our brain, and again, this is why the brain is the first chapter, because you really need to understand why the other chapter are important.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.960
If your brain is crystal clear, what are your strengths and values?
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:32.640
When you are in a challenging situation, you know what to grab to move forward with more ease.
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.079
Can I ask you a challenging question about that?
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:50.079
Because sometimes I feel like I'm super clear on my values and strengths on a great day, on a sunny day, when my hormones are not a certain way or a certain time of the month, right?
00:24:50.480 --> 00:25:02.160
And what if, you know, it's a crappy day and I wake up in a crappy mood and my joints hurt, and I'm like, oh, I don't want to do anything.
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:05.920
And then like strengths, oh, you know, I'm like, I don't know.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:07.599
Or like, what were they?
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:08.960
Do they even feel relevant?
00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:21.599
Like, what if you know the conditions of the body, because the brain is in the body, have you either forgetting your strengths or disregarding your strengths or even doubting your strengths?
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:22.559
Then what happened?
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:24.240
Such a good question, Jamie.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:25.200
A couple of things.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:29.440
First of all, to normalize that those days exist and those days will happen to all of us.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:31.759
I'm not the only one.
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:35.519
Let's make a club, the human club.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:38.079
Yes, the human club, seven billion people.
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:38.960
Yes.
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:43.200
And what uh a little separate coming back, but a little separate of that.
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:52.480
What I always always say to myself and my clients if needed, uh let yourself, I mean, if you want to feel sorry for yourself and go for it.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:53.680
I mean, go for it.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:57.039
Oh, yeah, you you you write them permission slips.
00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:00.319
And I'm writing to myself many times.
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.839
Yeah, it's a disaster, it's whatever.
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:08.799
And I think we're talking before the session, like, yeah, I have back pain, upper, lower back pain for more than one year.
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:14.319
And I'm I think I can give up PhD and back pain right now, based on how many things I learned about back pain.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.240
So, yeah, that happens.
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:20.240
There are days when I'm like, I don't know, I'm like, I'm exhausted, I don't know what else to do with my life.
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:26.400
I'm like, why I my brain is exploding of how much pain and like ongoing, you know.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:28.240
So yeah, there are days like that.
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:31.599
But here is where something like values and strengths can come in.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:36.400
So, that example in how I integrate this in my particular case.
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:40.640
So, and I think you said earlier I'm persistent, like with a manager.
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:44.240
Like, yeah, that's kind of a thing, and I think many you probably the same.
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:50.960
You have this characteristic, many entrepreneurs, it's no other way to do this type of line of business, otherwise.
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:53.119
So that persistence is a thing, you know.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:54.799
So, okay, yes, I feel bad.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:56.319
Okay, yeah, what else can I do?
00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:57.519
This is a very useful question.
00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:58.640
What else can I do?
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:04.559
Okay, uh, because being in pain is not the best option, it's an option, but it's not the best one.
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:06.319
Like, what okay, who else can I talk?
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:07.519
What else can I learn?
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:09.839
What else can I ask AI about?
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:15.680
Like, how many times I explained to AI all my symptoms and give me idea solutions, what can I try next to do?
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:21.440
And so this is how you draw in one of your strengths, okay, persistence or one of my values, like the freedom.
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:23.920
Okay, I want to be free of this stupid pain.
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:30.880
So, my job for myself is to figure it out the way forward, to stay in alignment with my values and with my strengths.
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.119
Nobody's going to do that work for me than myself.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:51.839
But again, I can take a break and I can feel like, okay, I'm going to feel sorry for myself in 24 hours, and I'm going to think I'm the yeah, the most unluckiest person in the world, and uh think all the things and feel all of all the feelings, but then you have to snap out of it because you made some decisions that these are the values you want to live.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:52.400
Yeah.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:54.880
And you know that you have something at your disposal.
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:58.559
You don't, you're not lost in the universe, you can do something.
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:12.480
And there's something really clever about giving ourselves that time-boxed period to feel whatever it is that we're feeling, or think all the thoughts.
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:17.440
I I was very sick earlier this year, so I experienced a lot of pain.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:28.880
And so what I'm what I'm hearing is you can have your strength, but it can just look different when you're going through something, especially you know, physically, right?
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:34.079
And what you just shared, I I had to do, I had no choice, you know.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:40.880
I had to be on my side or you know, prone, lying down, yes, asking AI.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:49.039
And then just I had to like accept, I had to allow myself to feel what I'm feeling, the pain and the fatigue and like the self-pity.
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:52.079
And I just had to be like, yes, it is what it is.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.599
I have to just allow myself to be with it.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:06.960
And then I did this thing where I intentionally chose to be grateful for, I'm like, I have a body, you know, I I even have a business I can put on pause, right?
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:16.960
And I I've been told from other people who study the brain science that gratitude ignites different neurochemistry in the brain, right?
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:27.200
So it kind of reduces the cortisol and it can help, you know, maybe, maybe help ignite some endorphins or some that good feeling serotonin.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.799
I I'm not precise on that, but but thank you for sharing that.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:46.880
It's like your strength can look differently in behavior when you feel good, and when you don't feel so good, it can look differently, but before you know it, you're still activating that strength of whether that's persistence, not giving up, freedom, yeah, the values.
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:48.319
So thank you for sharing that.
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:49.119
Thank you for sharing that.
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:52.079
And I'm really excited to hear your book is going to be published.
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:58.720
You'll have to come back and, you know, market, tell us more about the book when it is published.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:29:59.440
Yeah.
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:08.079
So, you know, something that you mentioned earlier that you're Eastern European, you're very direct, and you lived in four different countries.
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:12.240
You live in Romania, you're now in North Carolina.
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:14.400
What were the other countries you lived in?
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:16.960
Republic of Moldova and Spain.
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:18.960
Which one was your favorite?
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:22.640
It's very hard to answer that question.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:28.799
Um, but I will say there are two cities in this world where I feel like home.
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:32.000
And the two cities are Barcelona and New York City.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:33.519
Ah, okay.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:36.319
And what did living in all the different cities?
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:39.519
Barcelona, New York City, Moldova, Romania.
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:42.400
I think you also mentioned you lived in Japan briefly.
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:50.720
So what did what did living in those different countries and cities teach you about possibility thinking?
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:57.920
I think the fundamental thing that I realized, and by the way, even this realization came actually from different podcasts.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.119
People asking me similar questions, and I'm framing it for myself.
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:05.839
But what I realized at one point, and this is my point of view, somebody else can come and have a different point of view.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.960
But for me, there is so much, or maybe might be the most obvious thing that I'm going to say.
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:15.200
There is much more common across countries.
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:19.759
So for me, actually, country or is not a variable of so much interest anymore.
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:27.359
Even if in grad school, actually, all my studies are in cross-cultural research, my my dissertation also on globalization and values and cross-cultural.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:31.359
So I lived in the space of cross-culture for a long time.
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:38.640
Maybe because of that, or maybe not, again, my brain now is believing that we are so much more similar.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:45.519
And the cultural it is a cultural layer, but I wouldn't give it more than 10-20% of the cultural layer.
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.519
Otherwise, I feel like a human is a human is a human.
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:57.440
And then again, it's a pretty freeing way of thinking about people that you don't have to overthink, overanalyze.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:23.759
It's just a human if you understand a little how the brain works, if you understand a little how personality traits work, if you understand a little uh, I mean, you can and there is actually research on this that there are more similarities across countries for people who are in the same social economical status that across people who are inside inside of the same country across different social economical status.
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:36.799
So I have more in common with somebody from Germany and Brazil that are went to school, have a white-colored job, all of that.
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:53.359
Even there is research that says that my house will look pretty similar with their houses, with some layer of cultural differences, versus how my house looks comparing with somebody who is a billionaire or somebody who is uh living under the bridge.
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:58.720
So the differences maybe times inside of a country are much more bigger than across a country.
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:04.000
So that's something that I'm what I'm thinking when I when I think about this question.
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:07.359
I'm taking away, don't overthink it.
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:09.279
That works.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.240
That that's great.
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:12.559
I mean, I'm a bicultural person.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:17.440
I also live in Japan sometimes, so and I'm Korean American.
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:21.440
And so sometimes I'm like, if I start overthinking it, that's when I know I'm like some of them.
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:23.440
And I get like hesitant.
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.079
I'm like, but I teach women how to advocate for themselves.
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:27.519
Why am I feeling timid?
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:28.799
And so this really helps.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:33.440
It's like, hey, we're we're a lot similar than we think.
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:52.000
Yeah, the there are maybe some customs and language differences that I have to learn, but actually, and in what you just said, if they went to college, they have an advanced degree and they have a professional job, or there were certain socioeconomic class, our experience is probably a lot closer than different.
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:53.039
That's that's good to know.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.119
Is there anything else you'd like to add to that?
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.240
Let's see, I wanted to say something, but it escaped my brain.
00:33:58.319 --> 00:33:59.759
So let's see if I'll remember it.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:07.039
Um, I wanted to say that uh I mean, for sure, for better or for worse, there is some truth in cultural stereotypes.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:09.280
They exist for a reason.
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:12.719
And they also can get us in a lot of trouble.
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:13.519
Right.
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:18.880
So in and out of trouble, you said can get us in trouble, can get us out of trouble.
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:20.960
Yes, so it's both.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:26.320
And this is again uh coming back to possibility and options, and how do you hold multiple things in the same time?
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:38.639
So this is the hard work that all of us can do, you know, to understand not over-index on one or the other, and not to make assumptions, and maybe I like how you said not overthink it so much.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:43.199
Like uh go be there, be present, and that's maybe all you need to do.
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:46.639
You don't need to know present, and that may be all you need to do.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:47.760
That's a great takeaway.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:49.280
That's really great takeaway.
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:59.280
So, is there anything I haven't yet asked that you think people should know about possibility thinking or anything else?
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:06.000
Uh maybe I'll say uh I'm uh opening a class on possibility thinking early next year.
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:14.079
So if anybody wants to join and be aware, the best way to be informed is either LinkedIn or my email list.
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.440
Usually I'm offering some additional discounts on for my email list.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:22.639
So if you jump on my email list, you'll have some preferential uh uh investment price.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:30.960
But yeah, that's a kind of a group session where I'm basically walking people through all these three types of inner relational and process possibilities.
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:37.280
And I don't believe in training, but I believe in very hands-on workshops.
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.079
So that's how this is going to be.
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:45.360
It's going to be very a piece of theory, and then individual, you do actually something.
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:58.719
You know, you think about your strengths, you talk with somebody else about your strengths, you think about your values, you balance polarities, you do something very, very practical in the workshop, and you have homework before the workshop, after the workshop.
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:18.239
So it's a very kind of hands-on type of thing that actually my hope is that people will remember something from it and they will be able to implement and have something so they will never ever before will find themselves saying, I'm starting from scratch, I'm starting from zero, I don't know what to do, I'm in a jail, I'm stuck.
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:24.079
You'll never be stuck again after you have all of those techniques from that possibility thinking program.
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:26.639
Never be stuck again.
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:28.159
That's that's powerful.
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:35.360
Where can people go to learn more about your email list, your upcoming workshop?
00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:37.039
LinkedIn is the best place.
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:38.880
I always say LinkedIn is my office.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:43.519
I uh work, I work from home, but I work on LinkedIn, so please connect with me.
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:46.800
Uh Jenny, I heard you saying earlier something about you being timid or something.
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:47.679
I'm an introvert.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.400
I'm trying to find my voice, try to speak more about my thoughts.
00:36:52.480 --> 00:37:03.440
And so if anybody wants to see and how how how an introvert is doing, how how an introvert plays a LinkedIn game, come on LinkedIn and uh once you are there, you'll find all the other information about me.
00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:08.400
All right, I will link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.400
Thank you so much, Arena.
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:11.840
Very happy to be here.
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:13.199
Thank you, Jamie.
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:17.119
Thank you for joining me today on Risky Conversations.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:22.320
Remember, everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation.
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:26.719
And when done well, your self-advocacy becomes an act of service.
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:37.519
If you're ready to de-risk your own career evolution, I invite you to book a free hour-long consultation at jamiewecoach.com slash apply.
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:44.239
J A N I E L E E C O A C H dot com slash apply.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:51.119
We'll map out your custom blueprint to confidence and get you on the path to being better paid on your own terms.
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:56.000
Let's make your next conversation the one that changes everything.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:57.039
Toxin.
00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:03.919
Hello, I'm Jamie Lee.
00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:08.160
I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics.
00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:13.519
And I help them get promoted, get better paid without throwing anyone under the bus.
00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:14.640
How?
00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:20.640
By blending proven communication strategies with brain-shifting neuroscience techniques.
00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:31.199
In this podcast, we explore the stories and strategies of Gutsy women and allies who've braved speaking up and navigated their careers forward.
00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:36.159
We're here to de-risk the conversations that feel the most daunting.
00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:39.679
Advocating for yourself and your growth.
00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:41.119
Let's dive in.
00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:43.920
Welcome to Risky Conversations.
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:46.000
And why risky conversations?
00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:51.439
Because everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation.
00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:55.520
And today I'm really delighted to have Irena Cosma.
00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:11.680
Irina Cosma PhD is an organizational psychologist, an executive coach with over 20 years of experience helping C-suite executives, leaders, and entrepreneurs become better at who they are and what they do.
00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:22.400
She specializes in expanding what people think is possible, helping them see more options when they feel stuck and develop the mindset of a possibility thinker.
00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:26.480
This isn't so much need right now, probably more than ever.
00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.760
So I want to hear more about Possibility Thinker.
00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:35.120
But also, Arena is a frequent contributor to Harvard Business Review.
00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:42.000
She teaches at Purdue University and has held leadership roles at Salesforce and Wells Fargo.
00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:52.239
And Irina is originally from Romania and she's lived in four countries and is now based in Charlotte, North Carolina.
00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:54.799
Welcome to Risky Conversations, Irina.
00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:57.040
Jamie, Jamie, thank you so much for having me.
00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:59.840
The title of your podcast got my attention.
00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.640
Such a beautiful title, such an important title.
00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:04.480
So so happy to be here.
00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:12.080
And speaking of risky conversations, you know, feel free to answer it whether professionally or personally.
00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:20.159
I am curious for you, what was one of the riskiest conversations that you've engaged in and why was it worth it?
00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:26.879
I think many times we are put in those types of situations, willingly or not.
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:29.599
And the question, how do we react and what do we do?
00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:34.400
Sometimes we initiate the conversation, sometimes somebody else initiates.
00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:43.199
I was at the receiving end on some conversations that were more like aggressive people screaming at me that I had no control on.
00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:50.400
But I will actually answer your question from a conversation that actually I initiated and I felt like I have more control on.
00:02:50.719 --> 00:03:00.639
So that's a story of a time on when in my innocence I decided to give feedback to my manager at the time.
00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:07.039
How young were you?
00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:12.159
And where were you in your career when you decided I'm going to give feedback to my manager?
00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:13.439
Such a good question.
00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:15.680
It was later in my career.
00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:17.840
Very good question, yes.
00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:29.680
In retrospect, if I have to think right now, yeah, I don't know when the pendulum tilted for me to be able to have this type of initiatives in my professional life.
00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:34.000
I would also say that on the same time, I'm from Eastern Europe.
00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:36.319
Eastern Europeans are known to be more direct.
00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:38.800
I, my personality is also very direct.
00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:49.599
So I wouldn't, I had other examples of me saying something that looked like risky a couple of times in my career, not on the feedback side, but other times.
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:58.479
So I think when one of your fundamental values is being violated, it's not like there is no, there is no much options that you have.
00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:04.479
It's like it just spills out of you because one of your fundamental values was violated.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:13.199
So now that you asked me this question, I remember early in my career, uh, fairness, which is one of my fundamental values, was violated.
00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:16.800
Back then I did not know that fairness is one of my fundamental values.
00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:22.399
But and I speak up when I said something that in retrospect looked like crazy and courageous.
00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:29.519
And the example that I'm about to give, it's another value that again is very fundamental to me, which is freedom.
00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:38.560
And I didn't feel like I have a choice not to take the action, not to give the feedback, not to have the courageous conversation.
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:44.399
That my brain couldn't know any other way than forward and doing something about it.
00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:51.920
And how was your like what was happening that you like?
00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:57.040
I have to give feedback because my fundamental value of freedom is being violated.
00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:05.360
I went through my career being pretty lucky on the managers I had, and all my managers usually gave me a lot of freedom.
00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:10.399
You know, you don't know what you have until in retrospect you realize what you had when you don't have it anymore.
00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:15.439
And I was very able, and they were very able to work with me, like the way I was.
00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:22.560
Like, give me something, I'll figure it out, I'll come back to you if I get stuck, if I make a mistake, be sure I'm coming and I'm going to let you know.
00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.160
So, how we correct the mistake.
00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:27.839
So they trusted me that I can figure it out and I can do my job.
00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:34.480
That was a wonderful gift that all these managers gave to me in retrospect.
00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:42.720
And when I encounter a manager that couldn't give me that gift, my brain was like completely in shock.
00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:43.759
Like, what's happening here?
00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:45.279
I didn't know what's happening to me.
00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:50.639
It took me a while to understand why I cannot breathe, why I feel like I'm in jail.
00:05:50.879 --> 00:06:02.240
And and when I realized, again, by then I already did the work on the values, and I know that freedom is one of my values, so I was more aware of what's happening and verbalizing them.
00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.000
So, yeah, like I was like, okay, what options do I have?
00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:11.600
The first option is to do something about it, try to influence something here.
00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:19.680
And again, I'm again I am having hard conversations with people because again, I don't know how not to have them many times.
00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.120
So this was like, let's figure something out.
00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:28.240
And I think it was a one-on-one, so I didn't schedule a special meeting to talk about this.
00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:44.800
It was during the one-on-one, and I was like, no, I mean, I I catch a moment that when she said like she had so much work to do, she stayed until midnight to finish some things, and and I knew that she is very much into my business and tries to figure it out everything that I'm doing.
00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:50.000
And I was like, I can take more, I can do more.
00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:55.199
Let me give me a little autonomy when you don't have to work until midnight.
00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:57.279
And give more to me.
00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:58.639
I can take more.
00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:00.240
Uh let me do work.
00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:06.000
I can do work, let give it to me, release it, and it's a win-win, you know.
00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:09.120
I get to do things that I love to do, and you have more free time.
00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:12.959
So it was like a very nice pre pre proposition from my point of view.
00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:16.560
You advocate for yourself, you advocate for yourself, yeah.
00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:29.360
Yeah, so even me again, me the direct one, try to be as I try to package as much as I could that conversation and not be too blunt or too rude in that conversation.
00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.480
And uh, to my surprise, again, I don't know how the conversation went.
00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:38.560
At one point, she did say, Oh, I got feedback before in my career that I should delegate more.
00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:42.000
I will try to do more of that.
00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:48.319
So I was like, I had a mixed reaction when I heard that because I was like, okay, so you know about it.
00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:50.000
It was said to you before.
00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:51.199
It's not news to you.
00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:52.399
So in a way, I felt relief.
00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:59.279
I'm like, ooh, I'm not saying something here that you did not know, so you can get aggravated with me.
00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:01.680
So you say information that you already had.
00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:04.800
But also I got a little skeptical.
00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:11.839
So she had this information for many years, and here she was not being able to make any change, as far as I could see.
00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:16.959
But she here she was saying again the words, I will try to do something.
00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:22.079
And again, me in my naivety and my innocence, I believed it.
00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:27.120
And like if a person says I will, I'm like, okay, let's see it.
00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.879
But uh, she couldn't, nothing changed.
00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.759
It became even a little harder, I would say, which again broke my brain.
00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:39.440
I'm a coach and I understand, I mean, logically understood what's happening.
00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:47.519
I mean, you know, we are coaches, you know how hard behavioral change happens, and even somebody needs to want and needs to put the work and time and energy and effort.
00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:49.600
That's a lot of hard work.
00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:54.559
So I understood that she didn't even know how to do the work.
00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:58.720
She didn't thought about asking to work with a coach, probably.
00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:00.960
So she was helpless.
00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:02.879
Even if she wanted, she couldn't.
00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:05.519
So that was a pretty interesting combination.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:15.200
And again, because I didn't know what else to do, I decided to go and have a second conversation with her.
00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.559
We were having a persistent, risky conversation.
00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:26.240
You're like, it's not enough that I was courageous once, and the leader heard me, she gave me a hint of self-awareness, but she didn't change.
00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:27.200
Let's try again.
00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:28.080
Persistence.
00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:28.559
Okay.
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:35.039
And then what happened when the second time you engaged your manager who was micromanaging?
00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:36.080
Yes.
00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:43.200
So this time uh she was not so willing to have a more amicable conversation.
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:50.559
We had this comp, I mean, I remember the words because I'm like, again, in retrospect, oof, I'm so sorry for a person like that.
00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:54.240
But in the middle of it, I was like, I mean, it broke my brain.
00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:57.919
She literally said that she needs to know everything that I do.
00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:07.440
And I tried to explain to her that in the 21st century, in a white-color knowledge worker type of environment, you cannot literally know.
00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:10.000
I cannot remember all the things that I did, also.
00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:12.559
And you cannot do this with all the direct reports.
00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:14.159
It's not humanly possible.
00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:17.120
I mean, it's not to me, this is a fact.
00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:19.759
And this is what I said, this is a fact.
00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:24.159
And she literally said, This might be a fact for you.
00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:25.840
It's not a fact for me.
00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.159
I need to know everything.
00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:33.759
So, this level of illogicality, I didn't know how else to do.
00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:41.919
And um, and what happened after that is that she scheduled meetings with me every day to ask me what I'm doing, what I'm going to do, what I'm doing, what I'm going to do.
00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.720
So again, pretty mind blowing.
00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:50.159
I'm very proud of myself that I had a lot of conversations, but again, to me, it was not even courage.
00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:52.480
It was like I it was a survival stuff.
00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:58.159
It was like that's the only thing I know what to do, how to make sense of the situation.
00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:09.039
So, so in hindsight, what did you gain from that experience that made this experience worth it?
00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:19.840
Because, you know, when somebody hears that, it's like that almost sounds like you encountered backlash for speaking up for yourself, you know?
00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.080
But you you gained something because the question was, why was it worth it?
00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:30.159
So, what did you gain in hindsight that made that experience worth having?
00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:35.679
In the retrospect, that was one of the biggest gifts that somebody gave to me.
00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.279
Whoa, that was one of the biggest gifts that somebody gave to you.
00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:40.159
Wow.
00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:45.200
And when did you learn that it was the biggest gift and what kind of gift?
00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:51.600
I realized it, I mean, I realized that portion of it after the fact pretty early.
00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:59.919
But when I fully realized it, when I had a client myself who came and told me a pretty similar situation.
00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:12.720
And I realized that if I would have met this client one, two years earlier versus meeting them now, made a very difference how I'm coaching and how I'm approaching that client.
00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:20.480
So that client was very lucky that I had that experience and I was able to be a better coach for them because I had that experience.
00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:23.039
So that was kind of broke my brain in the moment.
00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:26.639
I was like, oh my god, out of approach is so much different a couple of years ago.
00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:38.399
And now, because I had that experience, I could I could see an alternative option in reality that I was not being able to see maybe one or two years ago.
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:44.159
And this is a difference, and this is, I know we're talking about this particular example, but I don't know if you can agree with me on this.
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:51.840
There are things that we intellectually understand, but it's not the same if we emotionally understand them.
00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:52.879
Right.
00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:54.799
So this is a difference.
00:12:55.039 --> 00:13:09.759
The more experiences we have, even if they are pretty traumatic and pretty negative in the moment, then it in retrospect, they all become experience that allow us to empathize better, to understand better the realities of other people.
00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:15.840
So it's kind of painful that you have to go through that pain in order to understand somebody else's pain at the same level.
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:23.679
Otherwise, you can understand it theoretically, you know, you can understand it logically, which is pretty good, but it's not the same.
00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:35.120
So may I ask how you did coach this client who was going through a similar experience as you, micromanaging manager, resistance to resistance to feedback.
00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:37.600
Yeah, I'd assume those are the similarities.
00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:42.000
And maybe just to generalize a very difficult manager.
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:43.200
A very difficult manager.
00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.279
But very difficult that she was mentally exhausted.
00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:49.039
She didn't know what else to do.
00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:53.279
And uh, how would I have coached her a couple of years before?
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:57.120
I would have gone very heavily in influencing.
00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:58.480
And what else can you do?
00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:05.279
And how else, and where else, and what words, and in other words, who who are the other people you can speak to?
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.320
Is that what you mean by influencing, or do you mean something different when you say influence?
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:10.960
Both direct influence or indirect influence.
00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:14.399
Strategic influence is one of my favorite things to culture on.
00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:20.159
And I think our life it's continuous moments of strategic influencing.
00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:29.039
So I would have found a way, like okay, let's find a way, let's think, let's play three-dimensional chess, let's uh what, when, how, what do you prepare differently?
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:30.799
How what's the sentence you are saying?
00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:34.000
How I would have pushed a little harder on that.
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:41.600
Now I feel like there are multiple options, and one option is to remove yourself from the situation.
00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:44.639
Yeah, try all of this, definitely give again.
00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:46.399
I gave it a try twice.
00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:48.480
So definitely play with it.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:54.799
Uh but have realistic expectations of what's possible and if and when and how people change or not change.
00:14:55.759 --> 00:15:00.799
Try to diversify the option that you have available.
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.039
Because now I understood that, but again, I didn't know the manager.
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:10.799
This manager might have been a more agreeable manager that would have made an effort and made a change.
00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:11.279
I don't know.
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:16.720
So this time I didn't say, let's not do anything, let's just find another job for you.
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:20.320
But I say, okay, let's have more realistic expectations.
00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:27.200
So even this idea of realistic expectations and hope for the best, prepare for the worst, or the other way around.
00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:30.639
Give her more credit that she knows what she's talking about.
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:35.039
And that creates when you say that who are we giving credit to?
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:40.240
Are we giving credit to the client or are we gonna giving credit to the micromanaging manager?
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:51.440
The client that they understand, and I I again I would have pushed it more like it's possible, there is a way we can find it, you know, and sometimes you cannot find it.
00:15:51.759 --> 00:16:02.399
And again, I calibrated my own realities and expectation of what's possible because again, in even me going to that person twice, it tells you a lot about me because I think it's possible.
00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:08.159
I really think it needs to be like you need to tell me no many, many times for me to stop.
00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:17.039
Yeah, this makes me think of how you know I I coach clients who encounter difficult people at work, and you know, sometimes I ask them, what do you want them want to happen?
00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:18.960
And they're like, I want that person to change.
00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.000
And I'm like, Yeah, but they're not in the session, right?
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:26.639
The only person you can influence or change is yourself, right?
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:36.000
And so what I'm hearing is when you expand the scope of possibility, it it you know, realistic includes let's acknowledge we can't change other people.
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:41.279
We can in we can give our best effort to influence their decision making.
00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:50.720
And we also take a wider perspective and think about who are the other players, other people who can help influence that decision making.
00:16:50.960 --> 00:17:03.759
But what I'm hearing is hey, just acknowledging that people can't change, some people don't change, is also part of it's part of all the options that you you know lay on the table.
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:05.839
It's like all the cards are on the table.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:06.319
Yes.
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.880
This person doesn't change, we can leave.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.079
And that could be the best thing that happens ultimately.
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:12.799
Yes.
00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:18.000
And even now in I always give them a glimpse of hope because I want to still believe.
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.480
I say, you know what, maybe it's an exception.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:22.880
And in this case, maybe this person can change.
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.359
But again, right, we cannot bet on that.
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:26.000
Exactly.
00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:28.880
Let's not bet on other people changing so you can feel better.
00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:35.680
It's like no, why don't you took ownership of how you want to feel and what you want to change?
00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:37.359
Okay, excellent, excellent.
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:47.200
So I I guess we sort of already touched on this, but I want to I want to learn about your possibility thinker framework, right?
00:17:47.359 --> 00:18:00.079
So I'd imagine based on what you just shared with you, part of that is like explore options and expand them, but maybe you can walk us through what does it mean to be a possibility thinker and how do you become one?
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:10.960
Yeah, I'm imagining somebody who has kind of almost absolute freedom, like somebody who can always count that there is something they can do about a situation.
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:12.880
So that's the fundamental thing.
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:17.359
Like how you never feel stuck, like again, how I mentioned earlier, like I felt like I was in a jail.
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.000
I felt like I was like, I didn't know what was happening to me.
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:24.480
So I want everybody who we are going to be in those situations, we are going to feel like that.
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:31.759
My hope is that we have some tools to get ourselves out of that a little faster than otherwise without having this mentality.
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:37.599
And this concept started with me starting writing a book in 2023.
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:46.960
So when I started writing the book, it was not so much a framework or just like individual strategies that I knew I'm doing with my clients in my coaching sessions.
00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:51.599
And fundamentally, this is over time I this is the words I start putting on it.
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.920
I was like, what I do with these people actually, I'm opening their brains.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:57.920
They come to me and they say, I don't see it.
00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:01.519
I cannot, I don't know what else, I don't know how.
00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:06.319
And from my vantage point, I'm like, oh my God, there are so many things you can do.
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:09.440
And I need to stay there with them for them to see them also.
00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:20.240
So this idea of open up the brain of the person in front of me, and how I do that in my point of view is giving them alternatives, show them how many possibilities.
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:24.079
So when you are stuck in jail, like oof, you're not in jail.
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:25.599
Here is there are so many things.
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:28.559
What and like how you said, put let's put all those things on the table.
00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:35.839
Some of them might not be ideal, some of them you might not like, some of them will be difficult, some of them might not be plausible, but they are all there.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.440
So let's talk a little about them and see what happens when we talk about them.
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:49.839
So over time I came up with this framework of inner possibilities, relational possibilities, and process possibilities.
00:19:50.079 --> 00:20:00.000
So each of them have different strategies under them, and yeah, so that's that's and it's fundamentally what I'm working with my clients.
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:09.279
And you might be one of the first people to to hear about this, but I just sign a contract with Ratledge for a book based on this framework.
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:15.039
So by the time this podcast will come live, I will also announce the world at one point.
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:23.119
But that's that was a book that I started three years ago and went through different permutations, and the framework came into my brain.
00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:32.880
I had the concept, the idea, but it was kind of separate topics, and then they all got some shape and became a more coherent framework over time.
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:35.920
Congratulations! This is very exciting.
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:41.039
And inner relational and process possibilities.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:48.160
So do we start from inner or do we start from does it matter where you start from?
00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:53.200
In theory, no, but in practice, I think it's always better to start with inner.
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:54.960
And how do you know?
00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:00.880
But we'll let you know that you're you're like expanding the scope of inner possibilities.
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:07.920
So inner possibilities are ideas, like uh as if I remember all my three, four strategies.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:11.119
Even the first chapter in the inner possibilities.
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:18.079
So again, inner possibilities are things that you can do with you inside of you, and once you do them, nobody can take them away from you from you.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.960
And this is another thing, like when people sometimes say, Oh, I have to start from scratch, I have to start from zero.
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:30.880
I'm like, oof, you never start from scratch, you never start from zero because you have all this foundation that you build that you know and you are aware, so it's never zero.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:40.319
For example, one thing you can do, and it's all of them once I'm going to share, they are so basic, but all of them so hard work.
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:56.000
One of them is just literally learning a little more about how the brain works and understand a little what this piece of meat in a dark place, as Lisa Feldman Barrett says, what's the deal with this piece of meat in a dark place?
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.599
How much actually power and control can we try to insert into?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:12.480
It so just learning a little about that, I know it gave me a lot of options and possibilities and freedom, knowing that you know I can do this, I can do, I can influence it.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.519
The brain shouldn't tell me what to do, I should tell to the brain what to do.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:22.240
And there is a lot of things like I'm keep learning, I'm not a neuroscientist, but I'm reading and watching a lot of neuroscientists.
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:29.839
And I think by the book comes out, it's going to that will be the chapter that will need to be updated the most because there are so many things that we learn from this field.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:33.440
So even that, that's uh like just information.
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.960
The other thing that I don't know if you experience this with your own clients.
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:45.599
One thing that I do in all of my coaching sessions, the first coaching session, I give them some assessments and we do a debrief.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.319
The first session is a debrief of the assessments.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:55.119
But one question that I ask before we go to the assessment, I ask them to tell me about their strengths and development areas.
00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:07.039
I don't know, maybe for you the different population, but for me, I think majority of people they have to think what are their strengths.
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:08.720
Yes, right.
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:11.279
And they're like, oh, let me think about it.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:17.119
Okay, maybe then, maybe that, and they're rambling and it's not coherent and it's not clear, and they forgot the first one until they said the last one.
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:18.960
So it's a little messy.
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:32.720
So my what I'm trying to sell here is the idea that if you are crystal clear on your strengths, that's something that nobody can take away from you from you, and it's something that you can count on.
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:37.440
Whenever you are in a challenging situation, whenever you are under stress, under pressure.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:38.720
The same with values.
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:44.559
You know, like we just heard the example how my value move me to action of freedom.
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:52.400
Once you know your strengths and once you know your values, things become easier, not easy, easier.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:56.319
You are in trouble, and relationship building is one of your strengths.
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.799
Go deep into relationship building, talk with people, reach out to people.
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.160
Do one of my superpowers is speed.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:12.400
When I'm in trouble, when I'm like, oof, speed, I can do lots of things at times, like I can move mountains in a very short amount of time.
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.319
So I know I can count on that.
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:23.039
So if it's crystal clear, it's in our brain, and again, this is why the brain is the first chapter, because you really need to understand why the other chapter are important.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.960
If your brain is crystal clear, what are your strengths and values?
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:32.640
When you are in a challenging situation, you know what to grab to move forward with more ease.
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.079
Can I ask you a challenging question about that?
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:50.079
Because sometimes I feel like I'm super clear on my values and strengths on a great day, on a sunny day, when my hormones are not a certain way or a certain time of the month, right?
00:24:50.480 --> 00:25:02.160
And what if, you know, it's a crappy day and I wake up in a crappy mood and my joints hurt, and I'm like, oh, I don't want to do anything.
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:05.920
And then like strengths, oh, you know, I'm like, I don't know.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:07.599
Or like, what were they?
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:08.960
Do they even feel relevant?
00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:21.599
Like, what if you know the conditions of the body, because the brain is in the body, have you either forgetting your strengths or disregarding your strengths or even doubting your strengths?
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:22.559
Then what happened?
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:24.240
Such a good question, Jamie.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:25.200
A couple of things.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:29.440
First of all, to normalize that those days exist and those days will happen to all of us.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:31.759
I'm not the only one.
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:35.519
Let's make a club, the human club.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:38.079
Yes, the human club, seven billion people.
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:38.960
Yes.
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:43.200
And what uh a little separate coming back, but a little separate of that.
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:52.480
What I always always say to myself and my clients if needed, uh let yourself, I mean, if you want to feel sorry for yourself and go for it.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:53.680
I mean, go for it.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:57.039
Oh, yeah, you you you write them permission slips.
00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:00.319
And I'm writing to myself many times.
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.839
Yeah, it's a disaster, it's whatever.
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:08.799
And I think we're talking before the session, like, yeah, I have back pain, upper, lower back pain for more than one year.
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:14.319
And I'm I think I can give up PhD and back pain right now, based on how many things I learned about back pain.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.240
So, yeah, that happens.
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:20.240
There are days when I'm like, I don't know, I'm like, I'm exhausted, I don't know what else to do with my life.
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:26.400
I'm like, why I my brain is exploding of how much pain and like ongoing, you know.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:28.240
So yeah, there are days like that.
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:31.599
But here is where something like values and strengths can come in.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:36.400
So, that example in how I integrate this in my particular case.
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:40.640
So, and I think you said earlier I'm persistent, like with a manager.
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:44.240
Like, yeah, that's kind of a thing, and I think many you probably the same.
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:50.960
You have this characteristic, many entrepreneurs, it's no other way to do this type of line of business, otherwise.
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:53.119
So that persistence is a thing, you know.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:54.799
So, okay, yes, I feel bad.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:56.319
Okay, yeah, what else can I do?
00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:57.519
This is a very useful question.
00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:58.640
What else can I do?
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:04.559
Okay, uh, because being in pain is not the best option, it's an option, but it's not the best one.
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:06.319
Like, what okay, who else can I talk?
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:07.519
What else can I learn?
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:09.839
What else can I ask AI about?
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:15.680
Like, how many times I explained to AI all my symptoms and give me idea solutions, what can I try next to do?
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:21.440
And so this is how you draw in one of your strengths, okay, persistence or one of my values, like the freedom.
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:23.920
Okay, I want to be free of this stupid pain.
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:30.880
So, my job for myself is to figure it out the way forward, to stay in alignment with my values and with my strengths.
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.119
Nobody's going to do that work for me than myself.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:51.839
But again, I can take a break and I can feel like, okay, I'm going to feel sorry for myself in 24 hours, and I'm going to think I'm the yeah, the most unluckiest person in the world, and uh think all the things and feel all of all the feelings, but then you have to snap out of it because you made some decisions that these are the values you want to live.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:52.400
Yeah.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:54.880
And you know that you have something at your disposal.
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:58.559
You don't, you're not lost in the universe, you can do something.
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:12.480
And there's something really clever about giving ourselves that time-boxed period to feel whatever it is that we're feeling, or think all the thoughts.
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:17.440
I I was very sick earlier this year, so I experienced a lot of pain.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:28.880
And so what I'm what I'm hearing is you can have your strength, but it can just look different when you're going through something, especially you know, physically, right?
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:34.079
And what you just shared, I I had to do, I had no choice, you know.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:40.880
I had to be on my side or you know, prone, lying down, yes, asking AI.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:49.039
And then just I had to like accept, I had to allow myself to feel what I'm feeling, the pain and the fatigue and like the self-pity.
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:52.079
And I just had to be like, yes, it is what it is.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.599
I have to just allow myself to be with it.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:06.960
And then I did this thing where I intentionally chose to be grateful for, I'm like, I have a body, you know, I I even have a business I can put on pause, right?
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:16.960
And I I've been told from other people who study the brain science that gratitude ignites different neurochemistry in the brain, right?
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:27.200
So it kind of reduces the cortisol and it can help, you know, maybe, maybe help ignite some endorphins or some that good feeling serotonin.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.799
I I'm not precise on that, but but thank you for sharing that.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:46.880
It's like your strength can look differently in behavior when you feel good, and when you don't feel so good, it can look differently, but before you know it, you're still activating that strength of whether that's persistence, not giving up, freedom, yeah, the values.
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:48.319
So thank you for sharing that.
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:49.119
Thank you for sharing that.
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:52.079
And I'm really excited to hear your book is going to be published.
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:58.720
You'll have to come back and, you know, market, tell us more about the book when it is published.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:29:59.440
Yeah.
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:08.079
So, you know, something that you mentioned earlier that you're Eastern European, you're very direct, and you lived in four different countries.
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:12.240
You live in Romania, you're now in North Carolina.
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:14.400
What were the other countries you lived in?
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:16.960
Republic of Moldova and Spain.
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:18.960
Which one was your favorite?
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:22.640
It's very hard to answer that question.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:28.799
Um, but I will say there are two cities in this world where I feel like home.
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:32.000
And the two cities are Barcelona and New York City.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:33.519
Ah, okay.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:36.319
And what did living in all the different cities?
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:39.519
Barcelona, New York City, Moldova, Romania.
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:42.400
I think you also mentioned you lived in Japan briefly.
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:50.720
So what did what did living in those different countries and cities teach you about possibility thinking?
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:57.920
I think the fundamental thing that I realized, and by the way, even this realization came actually from different podcasts.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.119
People asking me similar questions, and I'm framing it for myself.
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:05.839
But what I realized at one point, and this is my point of view, somebody else can come and have a different point of view.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.960
But for me, there is so much, or maybe might be the most obvious thing that I'm going to say.
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:15.200
There is much more common across countries.
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:19.759
So for me, actually, country or is not a variable of so much interest anymore.
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:27.359
Even if in grad school, actually, all my studies are in cross-cultural research, my my dissertation also on globalization and values and cross-cultural.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:31.359
So I lived in the space of cross-culture for a long time.
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:38.640
Maybe because of that, or maybe not, again, my brain now is believing that we are so much more similar.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:45.519
And the cultural it is a cultural layer, but I wouldn't give it more than 10-20% of the cultural layer.
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.519
Otherwise, I feel like a human is a human is a human.
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:57.440
And then again, it's a pretty freeing way of thinking about people that you don't have to overthink, overanalyze.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:23.759
It's just a human if you understand a little how the brain works, if you understand a little how personality traits work, if you understand a little uh, I mean, you can and there is actually research on this that there are more similarities across countries for people who are in the same social economical status that across people who are inside inside of the same country across different social economical status.
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:36.799
So I have more in common with somebody from Germany and Brazil that are went to school, have a white-colored job, all of that.
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:53.359
Even there is research that says that my house will look pretty similar with their houses, with some layer of cultural differences, versus how my house looks comparing with somebody who is a billionaire or somebody who is uh living under the bridge.
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:58.720
So the differences maybe times inside of a country are much more bigger than across a country.
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:04.000
So that's something that I'm what I'm thinking when I when I think about this question.
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:07.359
I'm taking away, don't overthink it.
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:09.279
That works.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.240
That that's great.
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:12.559
I mean, I'm a bicultural person.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:17.440
I also live in Japan sometimes, so and I'm Korean American.
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:21.440
And so sometimes I'm like, if I start overthinking it, that's when I know I'm like some of them.
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:23.440
And I get like hesitant.
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.079
I'm like, but I teach women how to advocate for themselves.
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:27.519
Why am I feeling timid?
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:28.799
And so this really helps.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:33.440
It's like, hey, we're we're a lot similar than we think.
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:52.000
Yeah, the there are maybe some customs and language differences that I have to learn, but actually, and in what you just said, if they went to college, they have an advanced degree and they have a professional job, or there were certain socioeconomic class, our experience is probably a lot closer than different.
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:53.039
That's that's good to know.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.119
Is there anything else you'd like to add to that?
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.240
Let's see, I wanted to say something, but it escaped my brain.
00:33:58.319 --> 00:33:59.759
So let's see if I'll remember it.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:07.039
Um, I wanted to say that uh I mean, for sure, for better or for worse, there is some truth in cultural stereotypes.
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:09.280
They exist for a reason.
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:12.719
And they also can get us in a lot of trouble.
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:13.519
Right.
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:18.880
So in and out of trouble, you said can get us in trouble, can get us out of trouble.
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:20.960
Yes, so it's both.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:26.320
And this is again uh coming back to possibility and options, and how do you hold multiple things in the same time?
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:38.639
So this is the hard work that all of us can do, you know, to understand not over-index on one or the other, and not to make assumptions, and maybe I like how you said not overthink it so much.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:43.199
Like uh go be there, be present, and that's maybe all you need to do.
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:46.639
You don't need to know present, and that may be all you need to do.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:47.760
That's a great takeaway.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:49.280
That's really great takeaway.
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:59.280
So, is there anything I haven't yet asked that you think people should know about possibility thinking or anything else?
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:06.000
Uh maybe I'll say uh I'm uh opening a class on possibility thinking early next year.
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:14.079
So if anybody wants to join and be aware, the best way to be informed is either LinkedIn or my email list.
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.440
Usually I'm offering some additional discounts on for my email list.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:22.639
So if you jump on my email list, you'll have some preferential uh uh investment price.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:30.960
But yeah, that's a kind of a group session where I'm basically walking people through all these three types of inner relational and process possibilities.
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:37.280
And I don't believe in training, but I believe in very hands-on workshops.
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.079
So that's how this is going to be.
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:45.360
It's going to be very a piece of theory, and then individual, you do actually something.
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:58.719
You know, you think about your strengths, you talk with somebody else about your strengths, you think about your values, you balance polarities, you do something very, very practical in the workshop, and you have homework before the workshop, after the workshop.
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:18.239
So it's a very kind of hands-on type of thing that actually my hope is that people will remember something from it and they will be able to implement and have something so they will never ever before will find themselves saying, I'm starting from scratch, I'm starting from zero, I don't know what to do, I'm in a jail, I'm stuck.
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:24.079
You'll never be stuck again after you have all of those techniques from that possibility thinking program.
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:26.639
Never be stuck again.
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:28.159
That's that's powerful.
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:35.360
Where can people go to learn more about your email list, your upcoming workshop?
00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:37.039
LinkedIn is the best place.
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:38.880
I always say LinkedIn is my office.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:43.519
I uh work, I work from home, but I work on LinkedIn, so please connect with me.
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:46.800
Uh Jenny, I heard you saying earlier something about you being timid or something.
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:47.679
I'm an introvert.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.400
I'm trying to find my voice, try to speak more about my thoughts.
00:36:52.480 --> 00:37:03.440
And so if anybody wants to see and how how how an introvert is doing, how how an introvert plays a LinkedIn game, come on LinkedIn and uh once you are there, you'll find all the other information about me.
00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:08.400
All right, I will link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.400
Thank you so much, Arena.
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:11.840
Very happy to be here.
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:13.199
Thank you, Jamie.
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:17.119
Thank you for joining me today on Risky Conversations.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:22.320
Remember, everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation.
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:26.719
And when done well, your self-advocacy becomes an act of service.
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:37.519
If you're ready to de-risk your own career evolution, I invite you to book a free hour-long consultation at jamiewecoach.com slash apply.
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:44.239
J A N I E L E E C O A C H dot com slash apply.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:51.119
We'll map out your custom blueprint to confidence and get you on the path to being better paid on your own terms.
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:56.000
Let's make your next conversation the one that changes everything.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:57.039
Toxin.
