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Hello, welcome back to Recruitable.
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This is episode six, and we are here with Coach James Thomas, the head coach for the Oklahoma Sooners.
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First of all, thank you for being here.
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I know you are busy, like you are off all things track and field, and you may even be in recruitment season now.
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Yeah, it's a little bit of everything, but no, I just it's it's one of those opportunities.
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You get a chance to sit and ch chattle on track and field, and obviously, you know, what you're doing and putting together is awesome.
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But anytime I can give back to the sport in any way or help anybody in the future in any way, it's uh you always want to take time to do that.
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Yeah, I appreciate it.
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So let me just go through your bio.
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Before you were with uh Oklahoma, University of Oklahoma, you spent some time with Georgia, and then uh you did like nine years with Texas Tech.
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And even recently, uh you were the 2026 World Indoor Championship multi uh head coach, multis and jumps, correct?
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Right.
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Yeah, no, that was my first opportunity to take the head coaching role.
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Second opportunity.
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I did one uh at the NACAC.
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Uh Coach Carol and I at Georgia, she took over the women's aisles and men's head coach.
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This is my first time to head uh kind of the one of the major championships uh with USATF, but I've been a part of a few of the staffs and I've always loved being around elite athlete.
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So anytime I get that opportunity, I jump on it.
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Yeah, how exciting.
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So we'll probably be hearing from you in 2028 uh in Los Angeles if some things aren't already in the works.
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You have, if not already, close to a dozen Olympians you've been with, you know, responsible for coaching, several NCAA national champions, over 100 all-Americans.
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Like the list goes on.
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So your success is evident in this sport.
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I think about all the national athletes.
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We talk about Olympians, like I'm thinking everybody had to start as like a high school recruit, right?
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Like, like before they were Olympians, most of them I would say, were high school recruits.
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So I wanted to just start off by asking, how has the recruiting game changed for you since NIL's and the transfer portal became dominant forces?
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Man, I mean, even since being a head coach here, the sport has changed two almost three different times.
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And I've only been here three seasons.
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So, you know, you go back to a day where everybody was on the same playing field, everybody had 12.6 on the men, you had 18 on the women, and it was one of those kind of things where the women always felt they had a little bit more because we're trying to bring in more, and the men, everybody was scraping and clawing to try and, you know, make 12 and a half scholarship work without trying to make everybody go into generational debt to come to your university.
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And so now with the NIL and the expansion of scholarships, uh, I I don't know if that's changed completely.
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I do think there's a lot more schools that have more scholarships to give and and and probably more, if you want to call it NIL Rev share.
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It's it's it's moving into the track and field world.
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I wouldn't say it's the biggest thing, the biggest game changer yet, uh, but it is starting to separate the haves from the have nots in a way.
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But I I will tell you this, it's changed a lot because how we look at recruits now.
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And uh, and you mentioned national champions.
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When I go through that list and I think of six of them being walk-on, almost book style scholarship athletes.
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Wow.
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I'm not sure if I would be in position now as a head coach and even assistant coach to ever be able to take that chance on a 6'8 kid that's local, take a chance on a 6'10 kid or a 19, 19-foot female out of out of high school who would have had multiple opportunities all over the country.
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Uh, and if you're 11-6, 11-5, 11-7 in a sprint, you had multiple opportunities around the country, and now you're getting scrutinized because uh there's a lot of things at stake.
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And when you have roster limitations, and I was at Texas Tech for nine years, and at one point we had 65 on one roster, 63 on the other roster.
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So we had a chance to take opportunities and build people up and take the time to build them up.
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And now you see a a a different level of pressure that's being trickled down from the top all the way to the bottom.
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Right, right.
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So I gotta any any coach I ask to now, like the five and five rule, how is this gonna change recruitment for you?
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Is it gonna open some doors for the high schoolers, you think?
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Yeah, I the the thing that changed the high school recruiting, and it's gonna be this way across the platform, is the is the scholar is the roster limitations.
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The five for five, honestly, that's a gift that's given to people that you give a little bit more time to develop.
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And that could be college, that could be high school, that could be Junior, that'd be international.
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Uh, but I think the biggest thing with the the five for five to me, uh when you company that with like the SEC who's saying you can only hold 35 men on the roster, 45 women across the country, any division one program can be 45 and 45.
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Uh you're seeing a lot more programs be a little bit more deliberate and and and nitpicky about what they're looking for.
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And and the amount of talent that I'm seeing kind of left in the transfer portal, left in the high school ranks, people that are still kind of calling and looking for programs.
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If I had to rewound that back about eight to ten years with the same level of people like I would have, it would it would have been a field day for for programs and coaches who love to develop and love to see people come from, you know, who what's their name to having to Google and realize they're standing on top of a podium winning championships.
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And, you know, I just hope we can get back to that day.
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In my mind, I still want to do a lot of that.
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Um, but at the end of the day, you have a smaller amount of people and you have to have uh a much higher percentage of success rate than you did in the past.
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Right, right.
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One thing that I find interesting is the recruiting timeline.
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Like when is actual evaluation?
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Because of course the kids are trying to get their best march, they may start going on official visits junior year and and then there's an indoor and outdoor season.
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And so you can run a grade 60, but I feel like most coaches, if you're a sprinter, are waiting around for that 100.
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It's getting late, right?
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It's senior year, it's getting late.
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So, like, at what point do you really start evaluating, track, and feel athletes in your program for recruitment prospects rather?
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Yeah, I I'll I will tell you just in the nature of our sport, which is different than basketball and football, where and I was I played basketball and I mean uh track and I ran I played basketball in college.
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And so I knew in college it was different.
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I had to get in the AU scene, people had to see me play.
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I can average 26 points a game in Houston, that means nothing where I'm from.
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But if they didn't see you and they didn't see you actually how you played defense, how you moved on the court, you you really didn't get a shot.
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Or if your team wasn't winning or in the playoffs, you had no shot.
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Track and field, everybody does the same thing.
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We get on the database every single time, certain points in the year, we click on certain things based on your age, but what classification you're in school, and it gives us a long list.
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And we may start looking at whatever that mark may be that catches our eye, and it doesn't matter what their year, if that year says 2029, it's in our notes.
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We know we can't really connect with them yet, we can't call them yet, but they're on our list.
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Uh and if they're 2026, 2027, which was the past two seasons, that we can actually make calls and make contact.
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We can just start doing the 28s here uh just recently and and coming up in the future with this sophomore class rising up.
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But it's it's such an objective sport where numbers, if the win reading matters and the win and everything lines up, anybody that meets a certain parameter probably gonna get the same calls from the same elite programs.
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Anybody's uh sometimes next tier is gonna get the same calls from the same type of programs.
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And uh I think it's turned into more and more of a numbers game.
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And once you drop certain numbers, you're gonna get everybody to pay attention.
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Uh, I don't matter what event you're in.
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And there's some that take a little more creativity.
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You know the throws, they're gonna take some time to develop.
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Implements change, especially on the men's side, hurdle heights change.
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So everybody who runs 13.6 or 13.7 out of high school is an automatic have every big school knocking down their door.
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But on the women's side, you know, yeah, those things stay the same.
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The heights stay the same, the everything remains the same.
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So I do think there's a point where you'll get recruited earlier if you drop the numbers earlier.
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But I will say this, and I encourage everybody, if you haven't found what you're looking for, I mean, go as late as you can.
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I don't care if it's the AAU national championship, USA, right before schools get ready to open back up.
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If you run fast enough, you jump high enough, you throw far enough, somebody's gonna make a spot for you at a program that's elite or at an opportunity to maybe start at a lower level and work your way back up.
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But listen, fortune even talk in a way where division one programs are now stepping stones for other division one programs.
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Uh used to be JUCO or used to be this or that.
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No, it's it's division one programs and NAIA and D2 and D three.
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They're they become now the kind of the stepping stones to be able to prove yourself and move up.
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Right, right.
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So how much do you rely on video versus like in-person evaluation when you're looking for prospects?
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Well, when we first make contact, I would say numbers make a lot of difference.
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But when it comes down to, okay, now it's time to make this offer.
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We only have a certain amount of slots.
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I think that's where every coach looks up social media and finds everything they can, especially if you're sitting in stands and you get an eye on some of the top people.
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Because the thing is, most people show up the track meets to watch two or three people, but all of a sudden this one kid who fouled two or three jumps looks really, really good or uh moved through the hurdles, or you saw them warming up, you saw them have a really good start and they stumbled over hurdle five but still ran 13-8, you know, whatever it may be.
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You you get to use a little bit more creativity in that because you get to understand that there's circumstances that may have stopped them from dropping the times that make them really else.
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But I made a I think I made a living out of that.
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I've spent so much time on the road looking for people that fit what I look for.
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It could be a body type, it could just be a presence, the way they compete, a confidence.
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Um, but you know, that being said, it can also be thing that helps you to say, you know what, I'm gonna go ahead and go this way versus the other way, based on those same criteria, the competitiveness and you know, just uh how level-headed you are, how you perform at the biggest meets, the attitude, the way you interact with your coach, the way you interact with your parents, uh, all those things start to matter.
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Yeah, that which you just answered my next question, because it was gonna be beyond the marks.
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What are you looking for on paper?
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And so if you're actually in person, you get to observe all those things.
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If they're filing, if they don't run a great, you just get to see the attitude, the parents, like if if it was one of our kids, like we are tracking field, we've been at every beat, you know, we just love the sport.
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So yeah, that's good.
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Whenever you guys you have the time to actually show up at these meets, like there's the high school season, and then you have the Nike indoor, outdoor, national Adidas, uh, you know, New Balanced.
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Do you guys ever get a chance to go to any of those, or are you just too far in depth with your own season to see some of the things that come out of those meets?
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Yeah, we we try and get it out as much as we can.
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Thankfully, there's some meets that have a combination of both.
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You know, you go out to Florida, you got Florida relays, you go to Texas Relays, you go to some of these people places that have both.
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But, you know, I think now with the way technology is, there's not many races at preparable meets that we can't at least go catch the video on.
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Even some of these platforms that have results, I can go click on any result and I can watch that race typically.
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Um, and and so it's I think as technology gets better, I think it it's gonna be even more important that we kind of get eyes on people if we can't be there.
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When I look at my schedule, yeah, it's it's packed to the fullest.
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But once we get to the summer, there's an opportunity to go to these meets on each of these coasts.
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Uh you can go to org, you can go wherever.
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Uh you can do USATF.
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I that made that was my I made my killing.
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I was I was at USATF meets.
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I was sitting there from sunup to sundown, watching every single age group, not knowing the schedule, and hopping in there and like, man, this this this kid can go.
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And I've I've signed somebody from every one of those meets that I never knew before.
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I got to those meets.
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So I would love to see it get back to that day, but because the digital world is is getting so good per se, we we can see those videos.
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And because kids, athletes, youngsters, recruits, international, they post so much.
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You can see you can see the technique.
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So, you know, if I can get online and I can click on seven, eight, nine videos and you know, and or you post something that showed a little hairline foul, but you went, you know, 26 feet or 25 feet or 21 feet, like, you know, at the end of the day, everybody's you got everybody's attention.
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Uh and so I think it's important that, you know, if I don't know if this is a segment, but yeah, continue to promote yourselves on on this thing, promote yourselves on this platforms, uh, make it known.
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It's it's like I said, it's a little different from basketball and other team sports, but your numbers, your numbers do matter.
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So keep working at those numbers, but don't make it all about numbers.
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You can do some of the intangibles that allow you to close that gap from having debt and having school for free.
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Yeah, and that and that's what it came down to, like with my son, it was just affordability.
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Uh, that going into his senior year, he got the some power four, power five official visits, but he kind of still had this football thing lingering over him.
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He kind of wanted to try that, and the attention just wasn't there for football division one, like track division one.
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So just dual sport athletes, that's a whole nother podcast within itself.
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And getting two two programs to agree to to do such a thing, especially with football, you know, football is life.
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Um, most places you go.
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So I would say, what should like a 15, 16-year-old actually be doing right now if they want a shot at a a program or SEC program like Oklahoma?
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What what what are the things that they should be doing?
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I mean, there's a there's a couple things, and and a lot of it comes with kind of and I don't use a concept of trust to process because I I think there's you have to put a lot more trust in yourself.
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That's not my favorite terminology, but I think sometimes people have the opportunity to tie in with the coaches at their high school or some great club coaches, some some people that promote you, some putting yourself in a competitive environment where you may not be the best.
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You may not be the superstar, you may not feel like you're getting the attention you want, but you you you gotta you gotta compete with some other dogs.
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You gotta you gotta train with some other dogs.
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And I think at some point you gotta take your craft ex extremely seriously.
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There's a lot of people now around the country that are getting trained by former collegiate coaches, former Olympians.
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They're trained with pros, they're trained at a at a level where they're gonna separate themselves much faster, even if that person, you know, a young young man or woman has the opportunity to get there, they may not be there in that same speed.
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So I think you have to, first of all, you you have to you have to grind on the track.
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You have to do what you're gonna do and you have to do it at a high level, and you gotta start treating yourself like a like an early professional in this.
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And not everybody has those resources, not everybody has that guidance or that coaching.
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Um, but I think it's worth investing and seeking it out.
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Every other sport to go spend$1,000, go to these AAU programs and go here, travel all over the country.
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And our sport may just go at the place that's closest to our neighborhood, and that may not be enough.
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Um and the and the ones I'm starting to see really separate themselves early, especially in technical events.
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Um, you know, there's there's some that are genetic events, and there's some that are a little bit more technical.
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But I think all of it have a technique to it.
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But especially for those technical events, if you're a hurdler or if you're a jumper or you're a thrower, if you haven't found that that one, and like I said, a lot of these high school coaches can't go into the summer.
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They can't keep training you all through the summer.
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Right.
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But that's what we evaluate the most.
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And so that's where you have to get ready to put on your show sometimes.
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And I think that investment has to come from families, have to come from these programs that allow them to get out there and really display what they can do.
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And then after that, uh, you know, you have to market yourself a little bit.
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You know, people put things on social media and may put their favorite jewelry, their favorite clothes, their favorite cars.
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But I think at some point you gotta you gotta build your own profile that shows that, you know, I'm putting the work in this thing.
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You gotta make a coach go click on multiple things and say, let me see what this person's, you know, really doing.
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And and then we mentioned NIL to start this thing up.
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This is where you build your platform for that.
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Because once you get to college, they're looking for the they're looking for the person with a hundred thousand followers.
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They're looking for the person with all these interactions, they're looking for people with that personality.
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And as coaches, if you know, if we can't accept that new world, then we really don't need to be in this profession because that's gonna be the new model, everything we do.
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That's how things are evaluated as far as NIL deals that you can receive even on your own.
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Um so I I think this, I think as this thing changes and evolves, I think people just have to learn how to become kind of their own self-marketers, but that then they they gotta put in the work because we still have an object objective number style sport.
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Yeah, I think what I'm saying is it looks like athletes have to get serious um a lot quicker than they usually would.
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I got the saying that high school is three years.
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Like, don't just go in knowing that high school is three years because by the time the end of your junior year, when you apply for college, they're looking at your three years of your academics.
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You know, senior year grades are not out.
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And if you're lucky, you definitely want those marks that are recruitable after your junior year that you don't have to really rely on something great happening your senior year.
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That I mean that's like the least stress-free situation.
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What is the biggest mistake that you may see um from athletes and families make in this recruitment process?
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You know what?
00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:41.039
I think what I've noticed, and the only reason I've I found this out a little bit more because, and and I'm I'll put it in two tiers.
00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:49.360
Say if you have an elite level person, um, sometimes elite level people may have a dream school or maybe a coach that might even work with them the best.
00:16:49.440 --> 00:17:00.080
There's people they may connect with, or teams that may be a little bit more their vibe, but because they sat back and thought their times were gonna do it all, sometimes they didn't reach out, sometimes they didn't connect with other athletes on the program.
00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.440
One thing I'm seeing change the most now is some of these elite level athletes.
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:08.400
I mean, our college, our college kids are doing majority of the recruiting because I get on there and I'm thinking I'm on top of some stuff.
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:12.640
I'm trying to go recruit a kid I see, and they're following three of my athletes on the team already.
00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:16.160
Uh and you're starting to see this thing evolve more and more.
00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:22.160
And and and a lot of things that are kind of brought up are brought up from people on our team, people that they know or coach, what do you think about this person?
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.880
You got you got championship caliber teams that want to get better.
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:26.799
So they're out there looking for the best as well.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:34.720
But I think sometimes if there's a program that that fits what you're looking for, and you know that you can't, you can be getting recruited and offered by 20 different schools.
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:41.920
If there's schools that you may be really into or coaches that you really think you'd work well with, or whatever it may be, I think you need to try and connect.
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:46.640
Uh, I think that's the top elite level thing because sometimes people end up just taking what comes to them.
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:49.200
And I think that's sometimes the wrong move to make.
00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:57.279
And I think in that next level of that kind of developmental level, the people that are getting close to, okay, you've hit the marks, now everybody wants to hit you up.
00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:01.039
Uh, I think that's when they also have to do that same level of work.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:04.799
And it's not just the cold emails and doing this and doing that.
00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:05.839
Sometimes you got to share it.
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:12.400
Sometimes you got to reach out to other people, sometimes you have to connect with the athletes, sometimes you have to learn a little bit more of those teams' needs.
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:17.119
But I think you also have to expand your mind to programs that are a little bit outside the box.
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.240
Some programs you may, oh, well, they this place has all the best four by ones and all the best sprinters, all the best jumpers.
00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:28.880
And so you you get locked in on these one few programs, especially if you're that middle tier, meaning you're trying to get there, man.
00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:31.200
You need to open that box wide open.
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:39.599
Uh take a look and and reach out because there's some places may not even contact you because they think you may, okay, you ran 11-3 and you've run 2380.
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:41.440
Oh, you're not gonna, you're not gonna talk to us.
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.880
But these big schools or these dream schools aren't really reaching out to them.
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:56.640
And so once again, they keep this little small box of schools that they choose from and don't realize, you know, yeah, this this program wasn't in a four by one and a national champions or four by four, but I'm I'm pretty sure there's a program and a coach there that wants to get it there.
00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.559
So sometimes you're reaching out to the best versus reaching out to the ones you can help build up.
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:15.279
And I think that's where I think a lot of people uh make mistakes and lose opportunities and go into debt for no reason when there's a place you could have been a record holder and you could have helped change the culture and build that group up where you're at, especially these natural-born leaders that I run into all the time.
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.200
I'm like, I don't care what program you show up to.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:21.599
If you're ready to work like you say you're ready to work, you're gonna you can turn it around, you can build something up.
00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:25.119
And if they have any kind of support of what you're trying to do, you're gonna see it grow.
00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:31.200
And there's teams you go back five, six years ago, they may not have had jumpers, they may not have distance, they may not have really had a sprint program.
00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:38.319
Next thing you know, you change one piece, a coach, you change one piece, this, all of a sudden this thing is the sprint factory or the jump factory, the throw factory.
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:44.480
So I let you know every place has the potential to do that, but sometimes you get narrowly focused by just looking at the NCAA meet.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.000
Here's the eight teams in the finals.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:47.359
I want to go to one of these eight schools.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:47.599
Right.
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.079
And I think people, I think people make a drastic mistake with that.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.079
Yeah, it's very limiting.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:57.440
So you mentioned earlier something, you know, about the the women's scholarship versus the men's scholarship.
00:19:57.599 --> 00:19:59.680
Do you see that changing in the future?
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:10.799
Like that was a big shock to me having um a daughter get recruited first, which was like 10 times easier than getting my son recruited when I thought like his marks were better than hers.
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:14.079
But I'm like, I didn't know this about the men's side.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:19.279
Yeah, no, Title IX, once we put that law in perspective, that was long before really we're in this stage.
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.519
But when you start talking about some gender equity and Title IX laws, a lot of people are trying to balance.
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:40.000
And the NCAA did it with the 45 and 45, but a lot of conferences start doing 45 and 35, and a lot of things internally, people have been making those adjustments because if you have 45 men and you also have football and you also have these large roster sports, at some point you have to get the women and the men equal.
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.400
Uh and you had goes based off of your student population at your university.
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.359
So if you're 50-50 university, you can be 50-50 numbers.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:54.400
But right now, and typically around the country, you see a higher percentage of women in in in college, and so they have to balance those numbers.
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.880
And so they use sports like ours to balance it.
00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:00.720
So fine, give us 45 women or 60 women on your roster.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:03.279
We need to try and get to about 35 or 40 on the men.
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:14.079
And so you limit the roster, you kind of limit the the resources you put into it because when you're starting to give almost 100 scholarships plus to programs like football, which I'm not trying to bash them because they pay everybody's bills, right?
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:19.680
Uh, but but when you put 100 scholarships into those, there's not that many women's sports to get up to that number.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:25.440
And so you have to continue to decrease from sports like baseball, even if you have a soccer program, definitely track and field.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:26.960
Um, so you're gonna see that.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:28.880
I think it's gonna get tougher and and tougher.
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.319
I think it's gonna get even more specific of what people look that uh look for.
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:39.200
And I think especially with the international insurgents, of how so many more international athletes are jumping into the fold.
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:42.880
People are taking a few more chances on some potential ready made.
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.400
Uh the five for five does help.
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:52.799
I think again, the high school, I think one of the things that brings that back into balance is you know, maybe there won't be as many twenty five and twenty six and twenty seven year old freshmen taking spots.
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:53.599
Absolutely.
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:59.759
Um it'd be, you know, if we get to compare eighteen year olds to eighteen year olds, I uh there's a really good chance our country.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:04.720
In the US and the high school athletes, we'll have at least an equal shot at this thing.
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:12.640
But you can't go around beating a bunch of 22 and 23 year old veterans who've been doing this a long time, had a chance to mature, and they get to walk in to be freshmen.
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:17.519
Um, but that was the way this the NCAA worked, and so everybody played with those rules.
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:20.880
And I think now that could shift it back to the high school a little bit more.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:25.359
So when you asked that question before, I never put in perspective with the age limitation.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:41.920
Yes, especially especially for men like an 18-year-old boy coming out of high school versus, I mean, I think about uh the Indiana University, University of Indiana that just won the the football championship, those guys, there was pretty old guys on that team.
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:42.799
You know what I mean?
00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:43.599
Oh yeah.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:45.200
Sports like that, it's everything.
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:46.079
It's it's everything.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:48.240
And and we're developmental sport, it takes time.
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:54.720
You you compare any 18-year-old to themselves three or four years from now, their senior year, they're they're different human beings.
00:22:54.799 --> 00:23:03.839
And and at the end of the day, if if I'm getting an opportunity as a coach, yeah, I'm gonna go after this 23-old established and potentially bring them in as a freshman, they still got four years with me.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:10.559
Yeah, we're we're we're gonna we're gonna roll that dice that way versus uh probably the development that we all grew up and raised on.
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:15.920
I mean, most coaches where they're at right now because of things that you know they the development they've done, that's how you become better coaches.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.759
But at the end of the day, we also are are tasked with the responsibility to win.
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:30.559
And if that's uh more of the winning formula to get people who are diamond league races and people that were Olympians already, people that were already on contracts and things like that, then it's yeah, we we have to look that route.
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:32.799
But it's I think that will help it level off.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:37.599
And and I'm excited about it, to be honest with you, because the the coaching part is the the thing that excites me the most.
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:38.400
Yeah.
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:47.519
So if if affordability isn't an issue, how open is your program to like walk-ons uh and and development?
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.839
Do you do you have time for that on that level?
00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:55.359
You absolutely have time, but once again, the thing that's gonna change that is the the roster limitation.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.440
I and I don't have the number on it, but I think I did a quick little math on it.
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:04.079
But when they did the new roster limitations, it probably limited just in the P4.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:13.119
Uh, when you say let's just say we got, you know, 16 or or 15 men's teams, and every team cut 10 to 15 people from that roster.
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:13.599
Yeah.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:22.240
I mean, that's that you're talking about 150 to 200 people just like that that no longer can get P5, not even I'm not talking about scholars position, they can't even get a roster position.
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:22.480
Right.
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:27.359
You know, then you start going on to every conference down the line who've done something somewhat similar.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:34.559
You've eliminated almost 500 to 700 spots in track and field programs across the country for men.
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:45.920
And people don't realize that they actually did the same thing almost numbers-wise to women, uh, because that number was typically 55 to sometimes 60 on a lot of rosters, and now you cap it at 45.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:48.720
So it's it's it's gonna it's limited participation.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:53.599
It raised the amount of people who can get scholarships and a small window of people who can get that.
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:57.119
But I think from the opportunity perspective, it it really limited opportunity.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:10.640
So when walk-ons connect with me, and I talk to my staff about the potential of walk-ons, like they better pretty much be scholarship worthy because we only have you know 35 or less people that we can put on a roster, and we have to bring 32 to a conference meet.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:12.880
So, I mean, this is not a lot of room for error.
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.519
Indoor, we bring 27 or 30 and 27.
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:15.759
Sorry.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.440
SEC is 30 uh outdoor and 27 indoor.
00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:26.319
Uh, some of the conferences move up to around that 32, 33 range, but they're all right there in that small little window of, you know, that.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:27.359
But here's the thing, too.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:36.160
If we have 50, 55, or 45 women on a roster, but you go to a SEC, you go to a Big 12, any kind of power force school, you can only bring 27, 28 indoors.
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:41.440
I mean, that's potentially near 20 women that are wondering why I can't even travel to a conference championship.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:47.680
Why I have to just go to these meets and so you may get these roster spots, but you know, you're not gonna be forced to transfer.
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:55.119
You're not gonna be forced, but when someone tells you you may not make my travel squad for the next three or four years, you may not ever go to a conference championship for the next four years.
00:25:55.279 --> 00:26:00.480
Like that's a demoralizing conversation to have, and that's what keeps forcing people to to transfer porters.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:04.720
They're not getting cut, they're getting opportunities cut, not their not their necessarily their roster spots.
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:12.880
And and just by you saying that I can see how other lower divisions outside of D one can get more appealing to student athletes too.
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.640
I think you're gonna start seeing some crazy talent on the D2.
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:23.039
I mean, if not already, I'm sure it it's there on the D two and D three level because of opportunities that they can get.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:28.160
And they're great athletes, but it's just not enough room everywhere for everybody to be in division one.
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:36.640
Yeah, no, that's my that's why I got started at Samuson State, a small division one, and that's how I kind of really understood how to grind, how to work, how to work with less.
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:41.279
And, you know, but the thing that happened at Samuson State, like people went there and they graduated in four years.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:43.519
They they spent their time, they did their eligibility.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:27:04.160
Now, if you develop at any one of these lower level, division two, division three, NAIA, there's there's there's gonna be very, very few four-year, five-year graduates of those kind of programs because as soon as you do well, the biggest recruiting tool you have right now is going to the region meeting, watching somebody jump well and you watching other people with all these other resources, you're one of three people from your team.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:11.680
You watch people bring in two charter buses uh with with you know 40 people, 45 people, and you're like, I want to be a part of that.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:16.160
Uh and and it wasn't as big of a thing back in the day because there was a one-time transfer rule.
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:20.960
And so if you made that you made that move, you better have been sure that move was spot on perfect.
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:28.240
So people felt like I'd rather stay home, you know, stay with the team that helped raise me versus always run to the next because I don't know what it's gonna be.
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.039
But now if someone goes to one school and they don't like it, they move again.
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:33.200
They go to the next school, they don't like it, they can move again.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:42.000
So it's uh it's giving them the power, but it's also taken the power, I think, away from some of the smaller divisional programs who I think have some of the best coaches, best programs.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.359
I think they do an incredible job with the with what they have.
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:51.200
Uh, but once again, they're fighting just to retain talent that they helped develop and that they saw promising.
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:52.799
And I remember being in that boat.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:58.160
And even when I was at Texas Tech when I first got there, you start feeling like, okay, this isn't the school everybody knows.
00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:05.359
And so you like, you don't want it to become that theater school where, you know, we build up all Americans, big up champions, and next thing you know, they're trying to run to the the big name.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:08.240
Um so it's it's it's it's gonna happen across the board.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:09.200
I think it's here to stay.
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:25.200
Yeah, it's uh it's hard, and like you said, even even though they can transfer multiple times, and and maybe that'll be changing because um I seen like one transfer, and I don't know if the NCAA officially passed this, but then the next transfer, you may have to sit out a year.
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:30.559
So if they if they do that, then that's definitely messing with some of your five-year eligibility.
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:38.400
But yeah, big decisions to make, and you know, don't just transfer because you didn't have a good day with the coach one day.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:39.440
You know what I mean?
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:42.480
Like you gotta get some thicker skin out here.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:47.519
And they already threw out that uh that's the first thing they threw out in the new five for five when I think the final legislation passed.
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:51.680
They didn't take over, they they took away the one-time transfer thing, so they can still move as much as they want.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:52.799
That's that, yeah.
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:54.559
I I don't know what to say about that.
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:57.519
Like it again, don't always go.
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.079
I mean, it depends I guess it depends on your goals.
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:08.799
If you're chasing NIL and money and not really trying to develop as the greatest athlete you can be, then yeah, I could see, you know, transfers happening every year.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:18.880
But if you really want to be developed, I think sometimes you have to stay put um to be developed and not change coaches and teams every every time you see a money, money grab.
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:20.000
And that's for any sport.
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:21.200
Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:21.920
Absolutely.
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:29.759
And in the you know, and now they have five years, but I just I I do the tr we do transfers and stuff all the time, but it just I hate to see how many credits sometimes people lose to go places.
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:30.480
Oh my goodness.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:32.720
They're taking major steps, they're doing an extra year of school.
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:39.680
They're doing, they could have had a master's degree and they're about to take five just to get an undergrad and maybe still have to step back for a six year just to finish it.
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:40.960
That's crazy.
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:50.160
So last thing I will ask is like just what advice do you have for high school recruits out here that may be discouraged?
00:29:50.480 --> 00:30:03.680
They're with the portal, it's it's uh, you know, what I've heard I think I've heard maybe you say this in an interview, it's like their 13th year of high school and they're just not attractive to other programs, especially big programs, and and they may have the talent.
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.200
What do you say and what advice do you have for those high school athletes?
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:16.400
I probably give them the same advice I give to a lot of coaches that I I mentor and coaches that mentored me and through my path and had a lot of volunteer coaches, been through a whole system of it.
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:17.519
Get your foot in the door.
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:19.839
I think so many people hesitate getting their foot in the door.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:20.799
I don't care where it's at.
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:23.680
I don't care if it's at the NAIA JU code, whatever.
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:25.279
Uh I'm I'm one of them big fans.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:26.319
I'm not a big fan of debt.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:28.559
So even kids I recruit, people know my motto.
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:32.799
Like, if I'm recruiting you and you gotta come here and you gotta take out loans, there's another school for you.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:34.720
Because I'm just not a big fan of that.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:44.319
I just think that there's opportunities out there, and I'd rather see somebody not come to me versus going to debt for a logo or for the uh get get your foot in the door.
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:50.000
I don't and I will say this no matter what, find coaches, find people you can communicate with, find programs where you think you can develop.
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:53.599
At some point, you may have to bet on yourself a little bit, but bet on yourself.
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:56.480
Give yourself an opportunity to get on the track, get some training.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.960
It may be local, it may be cheaper for you to stay in state and stay close to home, do this, do that.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:20.480
But if you get an opportunity to get your foot on the door versus walk-on versus small scholarship versus okay, I can go to this school, I can go to that school and pay nothing, uh, I I think you take your chances betting, betting on yourself, but also doing your best to stay as much out of debt as possible, to be honest with you, because once again, once you start in that motion, you kind of get stuck in that motion.
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:26.559
Um but I think if you can get someplace where you can go out there and you can really grow, you can thrive, you succeed, you gotta work at it.
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:31.200
Because if you think you're just gonna show up and just be like everybody else, you got to find a way to separate yourself.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:37.279
And I think that's the one thing that I talked to athletes on their team uh that may start off as a walk on, it may start on a small scholarship.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:42.079
But I'm like, I'm giving you a clear path how to you completely get this full scholar.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:44.480
There's a path to this, and you can outwork some people.
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:48.160
And I can show you a long list of people who did this before you, but this is what they did.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:49.839
They didn't do what every other college kid did.
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:53.519
They didn't do what sometimes every other all-American that's sitting on their same campus is doing.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:04.720
They had to go out there and do things that other people weren't willing to do, and give up things that some people weren't willing to give up and get themselves at a level of focus that, you know, and and I say it all the time, high school, I mean freshman, sophomore year, it's like 13th grade.
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:09.440
So yeah, you can come in there thinking that's your first freedom from home, from your parents, from all the responsibility.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:20.559
But if you can kind of push that to the side, get laser focused, lock into what it's gonna take to care of yourself mentally, emotionally, physically, still keeping the spiritual side, if that's what even got you there.
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.720
I think that's I think that's more important than anything.
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:32.640
And if you continue to do that, you're gonna get opportunities either at the program that you're at, or once again, just like we can in our professional world, we look to elevate and move up and and and move in our career.
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:34.880
You have an opportunity to move up in your career.
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.160
But I say before you go uh jobless, get you a job first.
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:39.519
Get your foot in the door.
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:41.039
Yeah, that's it.
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:43.599
That's a great way to describe it.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:44.720
I'm jobless.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:46.960
You could be jobless if you keep on this path.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:47.440
Right.
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.559
Let's not be jobless and then get you a job, then work your way up.
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:54.400
And I think everybody has a has the ability, and I've seen it countless times.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.079
I can't tell you how many people I've seen that turn nothing into something.
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:02.240
I can name 10 people on my program right now that turn nothing into something.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:07.519
And and so if you get that opportunity, you get your foot in the door, you just gotta go to work and you can't be like everybody else.
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:11.440
Gotta, you you're only gonna you're only gonna get there by doing what other people aren't willing to do.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:12.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:13.599
No, that's great advice.
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:20.160
And um, again, I've lived it and I think um my son, he he ended up in a really good situation.
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:22.640
We're excited, we'll see what happens.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:27.039
Um, but yeah, thank you uh for being on recruitable.
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:30.640
I'm always following uh the Oklahoma Sooners.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:32.640
I used to be a resident of Oklahoma.
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:36.400
Dad was in the military, so I lived in Lawton, Oklahoma for a little bit.
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:38.559
Um, so yeah, it's exciting.
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:40.559
Um looking forward to seeing what you do.
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:45.279
I'll be looking for you as a coach in the uh 2028 Olympics in Los Angeles.
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:47.200
I'll start that campaign for you right now.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:49.920
I'm gonna put my cap on, we'll put my USA store cap on.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:51.279
It's ready.
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:53.279
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:34:00.400
And hey, this will not be the last time that we'll ask you to come on and share some gems of recruitable.
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:03.119
But until next time, just thank you for being on here.
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.079
Appreciate the inviting.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:05.519
Yeah, I'll hop on anytime.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:06.720
Just let me know.
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:15.359
Hello, welcome back to Recruitable.
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:22.559
This is episode six, and we are here with Coach James Thomas, the head coach for the Oklahoma Sooners.
00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:24.079
First of all, thank you for being here.
00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:30.320
I know you are busy, like you are off all things track and field, and you may even be in recruitment season now.
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.679
Yeah, it's a little bit of everything, but no, I just it's it's one of those opportunities.
00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:39.759
You get a chance to sit and ch chattle on track and field, and obviously, you know, what you're doing and putting together is awesome.
00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:45.439
But anytime I can give back to the sport in any way or help anybody in the future in any way, it's uh you always want to take time to do that.
00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:46.560
Yeah, I appreciate it.
00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:48.880
So let me just go through your bio.
00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:59.280
Before you were with uh Oklahoma, University of Oklahoma, you spent some time with Georgia, and then uh you did like nine years with Texas Tech.
00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:08.640
And even recently, uh you were the 2026 World Indoor Championship multi uh head coach, multis and jumps, correct?
00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:08.959
Right.
00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:11.920
Yeah, no, that was my first opportunity to take the head coaching role.
00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:12.719
Second opportunity.
00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:15.120
I did one uh at the NACAC.
00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:19.120
Uh Coach Carol and I at Georgia, she took over the women's aisles and men's head coach.
00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:27.439
This is my first time to head uh kind of the one of the major championships uh with USATF, but I've been a part of a few of the staffs and I've always loved being around elite athlete.
00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:29.519
So anytime I get that opportunity, I jump on it.
00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:30.640
Yeah, how exciting.
00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:37.120
So we'll probably be hearing from you in 2028 uh in Los Angeles if some things aren't already in the works.
00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:52.319
You have, if not already, close to a dozen Olympians you've been with, you know, responsible for coaching, several NCAA national champions, over 100 all-Americans.
00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:53.599
Like the list goes on.
00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.799
So your success is evident in this sport.
00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:59.280
I think about all the national athletes.
00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:05.040
We talk about Olympians, like I'm thinking everybody had to start as like a high school recruit, right?
00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:11.199
Like, like before they were Olympians, most of them I would say, were high school recruits.
00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:21.680
So I wanted to just start off by asking, how has the recruiting game changed for you since NIL's and the transfer portal became dominant forces?
00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:26.800
Man, I mean, even since being a head coach here, the sport has changed two almost three different times.
00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:28.479
And I've only been here three seasons.
00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:49.840
So, you know, you go back to a day where everybody was on the same playing field, everybody had 12.6 on the men, you had 18 on the women, and it was one of those kind of things where the women always felt they had a little bit more because we're trying to bring in more, and the men, everybody was scraping and clawing to try and, you know, make 12 and a half scholarship work without trying to make everybody go into generational debt to come to your university.
00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:56.159
And so now with the NIL and the expansion of scholarships, uh, I I don't know if that's changed completely.
00:02:56.240 --> 00:03:03.280
I do think there's a lot more schools that have more scholarships to give and and and probably more, if you want to call it NIL Rev share.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:05.439
It's it's it's moving into the track and field world.
00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:12.319
I wouldn't say it's the biggest thing, the biggest game changer yet, uh, but it is starting to separate the haves from the have nots in a way.
00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:16.400
But I I will tell you this, it's changed a lot because how we look at recruits now.
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:18.719
And uh, and you mentioned national champions.
00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:24.560
When I go through that list and I think of six of them being walk-on, almost book style scholarship athletes.
00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:24.960
Wow.
00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:41.439
I'm not sure if I would be in position now as a head coach and even assistant coach to ever be able to take that chance on a 6'8 kid that's local, take a chance on a 6'10 kid or a 19, 19-foot female out of out of high school who would have had multiple opportunities all over the country.
00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:50.400
Uh, and if you're 11-6, 11-5, 11-7 in a sprint, you had multiple opportunities around the country, and now you're getting scrutinized because uh there's a lot of things at stake.
00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:57.439
And when you have roster limitations, and I was at Texas Tech for nine years, and at one point we had 65 on one roster, 63 on the other roster.
00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:02.159
So we had a chance to take opportunities and build people up and take the time to build them up.
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:07.199
And now you see a a a different level of pressure that's being trickled down from the top all the way to the bottom.
00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:08.080
Right, right.
00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:16.000
So I gotta any any coach I ask to now, like the five and five rule, how is this gonna change recruitment for you?
00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:18.879
Is it gonna open some doors for the high schoolers, you think?
00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:27.199
Yeah, I the the thing that changed the high school recruiting, and it's gonna be this way across the platform, is the is the scholar is the roster limitations.
00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:32.560
The five for five, honestly, that's a gift that's given to people that you give a little bit more time to develop.
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:36.160
And that could be college, that could be high school, that could be Junior, that'd be international.
00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:49.040
Uh, but I think the biggest thing with the the five for five to me, uh when you company that with like the SEC who's saying you can only hold 35 men on the roster, 45 women across the country, any division one program can be 45 and 45.
00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:56.560
Uh you're seeing a lot more programs be a little bit more deliberate and and and nitpicky about what they're looking for.
00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:04.480
And and the amount of talent that I'm seeing kind of left in the transfer portal, left in the high school ranks, people that are still kind of calling and looking for programs.
00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:19.360
If I had to rewound that back about eight to ten years with the same level of people like I would have, it would it would have been a field day for for programs and coaches who love to develop and love to see people come from, you know, who what's their name to having to Google and realize they're standing on top of a podium winning championships.
00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:22.160
And, you know, I just hope we can get back to that day.
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:25.120
In my mind, I still want to do a lot of that.
00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:32.720
Um, but at the end of the day, you have a smaller amount of people and you have to have uh a much higher percentage of success rate than you did in the past.
00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:33.759
Right, right.
00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:38.399
One thing that I find interesting is the recruiting timeline.
00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:41.120
Like when is actual evaluation?
00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:50.720
Because of course the kids are trying to get their best march, they may start going on official visits junior year and and then there's an indoor and outdoor season.
00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:57.360
And so you can run a grade 60, but I feel like most coaches, if you're a sprinter, are waiting around for that 100.
00:05:57.600 --> 00:05:58.959
It's getting late, right?
00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:00.800
It's senior year, it's getting late.
00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:08.079
So, like, at what point do you really start evaluating, track, and feel athletes in your program for recruitment prospects rather?
00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:19.040
Yeah, I I'll I will tell you just in the nature of our sport, which is different than basketball and football, where and I was I played basketball and I mean uh track and I ran I played basketball in college.
00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:20.720
And so I knew in college it was different.
00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:23.360
I had to get in the AU scene, people had to see me play.
00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:27.040
I can average 26 points a game in Houston, that means nothing where I'm from.
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:32.319
But if they didn't see you and they didn't see you actually how you played defense, how you moved on the court, you you really didn't get a shot.
00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:34.639
Or if your team wasn't winning or in the playoffs, you had no shot.
00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:36.720
Track and field, everybody does the same thing.
00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:45.199
We get on the database every single time, certain points in the year, we click on certain things based on your age, but what classification you're in school, and it gives us a long list.
00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:52.560
And we may start looking at whatever that mark may be that catches our eye, and it doesn't matter what their year, if that year says 2029, it's in our notes.
00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:56.639
We know we can't really connect with them yet, we can't call them yet, but they're on our list.
00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:02.879
Uh and if they're 2026, 2027, which was the past two seasons, that we can actually make calls and make contact.
00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:09.519
We can just start doing the 28s here uh just recently and and coming up in the future with this sophomore class rising up.
00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:19.920
But it's it's such an objective sport where numbers, if the win reading matters and the win and everything lines up, anybody that meets a certain parameter probably gonna get the same calls from the same elite programs.
00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:24.319
Anybody's uh sometimes next tier is gonna get the same calls from the same type of programs.
00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:27.519
And uh I think it's turned into more and more of a numbers game.
00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:30.879
And once you drop certain numbers, you're gonna get everybody to pay attention.
00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:32.560
Uh, I don't matter what event you're in.
00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:34.480
And there's some that take a little more creativity.
00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:36.480
You know the throws, they're gonna take some time to develop.
00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.000
Implements change, especially on the men's side, hurdle heights change.
00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:46.160
So everybody who runs 13.6 or 13.7 out of high school is an automatic have every big school knocking down their door.
00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:48.720
But on the women's side, you know, yeah, those things stay the same.
00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:51.279
The heights stay the same, the everything remains the same.
00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:56.480
So I do think there's a point where you'll get recruited earlier if you drop the numbers earlier.
00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:02.160
But I will say this, and I encourage everybody, if you haven't found what you're looking for, I mean, go as late as you can.
00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:06.560
I don't care if it's the AAU national championship, USA, right before schools get ready to open back up.
00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:17.120
If you run fast enough, you jump high enough, you throw far enough, somebody's gonna make a spot for you at a program that's elite or at an opportunity to maybe start at a lower level and work your way back up.
00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:22.800
But listen, fortune even talk in a way where division one programs are now stepping stones for other division one programs.
00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:25.120
Uh used to be JUCO or used to be this or that.
00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:29.279
No, it's it's division one programs and NAIA and D2 and D three.
00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:33.519
They're they become now the kind of the stepping stones to be able to prove yourself and move up.
00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:34.320
Right, right.
00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:41.039
So how much do you rely on video versus like in-person evaluation when you're looking for prospects?
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:45.519
Well, when we first make contact, I would say numbers make a lot of difference.
00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.159
But when it comes down to, okay, now it's time to make this offer.
00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:49.840
We only have a certain amount of slots.
00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:57.440
I think that's where every coach looks up social media and finds everything they can, especially if you're sitting in stands and you get an eye on some of the top people.
00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:13.679
Because the thing is, most people show up the track meets to watch two or three people, but all of a sudden this one kid who fouled two or three jumps looks really, really good or uh moved through the hurdles, or you saw them warming up, you saw them have a really good start and they stumbled over hurdle five but still ran 13-8, you know, whatever it may be.
00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:21.279
You you get to use a little bit more creativity in that because you get to understand that there's circumstances that may have stopped them from dropping the times that make them really else.
00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:23.279
But I made a I think I made a living out of that.
00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:26.399
I've spent so much time on the road looking for people that fit what I look for.
00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.559
It could be a body type, it could just be a presence, the way they compete, a confidence.
00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:47.120
Um, but you know, that being said, it can also be thing that helps you to say, you know what, I'm gonna go ahead and go this way versus the other way, based on those same criteria, the competitiveness and you know, just uh how level-headed you are, how you perform at the biggest meets, the attitude, the way you interact with your coach, the way you interact with your parents, uh, all those things start to matter.
00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:51.600
Yeah, that which you just answered my next question, because it was gonna be beyond the marks.
00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:53.600
What are you looking for on paper?
00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:57.679
And so if you're actually in person, you get to observe all those things.
00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:09.759
If they're filing, if they don't run a great, you just get to see the attitude, the parents, like if if it was one of our kids, like we are tracking field, we've been at every beat, you know, we just love the sport.
00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:11.279
So yeah, that's good.
00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:26.720
Whenever you guys you have the time to actually show up at these meets, like there's the high school season, and then you have the Nike indoor, outdoor, national Adidas, uh, you know, New Balanced.
00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:35.039
Do you guys ever get a chance to go to any of those, or are you just too far in depth with your own season to see some of the things that come out of those meets?
00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:37.039
Yeah, we we try and get it out as much as we can.
00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:39.360
Thankfully, there's some meets that have a combination of both.
00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:44.720
You know, you go out to Florida, you got Florida relays, you go to Texas Relays, you go to some of these people places that have both.
00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:52.399
But, you know, I think now with the way technology is, there's not many races at preparable meets that we can't at least go catch the video on.
00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:57.919
Even some of these platforms that have results, I can go click on any result and I can watch that race typically.
00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:05.279
Um, and and so it's I think as technology gets better, I think it it's gonna be even more important that we kind of get eyes on people if we can't be there.
00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:08.000
When I look at my schedule, yeah, it's it's packed to the fullest.
00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:11.440
But once we get to the summer, there's an opportunity to go to these meets on each of these coasts.
00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:13.360
Uh you can go to org, you can go wherever.
00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:14.960
Uh you can do USATF.
00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:17.120
I that made that was my I made my killing.
00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:18.720
I was I was at USATF meets.
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:25.440
I was sitting there from sunup to sundown, watching every single age group, not knowing the schedule, and hopping in there and like, man, this this this kid can go.
00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:28.799
And I've I've signed somebody from every one of those meets that I never knew before.
00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:29.840
I got to those meets.
00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:38.320
So I would love to see it get back to that day, but because the digital world is is getting so good per se, we we can see those videos.
00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:42.799
And because kids, athletes, youngsters, recruits, international, they post so much.
00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:44.399
You can see you can see the technique.
00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:57.600
So, you know, if I can get online and I can click on seven, eight, nine videos and you know, and or you post something that showed a little hairline foul, but you went, you know, 26 feet or 25 feet or 21 feet, like, you know, at the end of the day, everybody's you got everybody's attention.
00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:06.080
Uh and so I think it's important that, you know, if I don't know if this is a segment, but yeah, continue to promote yourselves on on this thing, promote yourselves on this platforms, uh, make it known.
00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:11.519
It's it's like I said, it's a little different from basketball and other team sports, but your numbers, your numbers do matter.
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:14.559
So keep working at those numbers, but don't make it all about numbers.
00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:20.000
You can do some of the intangibles that allow you to close that gap from having debt and having school for free.
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:24.480
Yeah, and that and that's what it came down to, like with my son, it was just affordability.
00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:33.679
Uh, that going into his senior year, he got the some power four, power five official visits, but he kind of still had this football thing lingering over him.
00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:40.480
He kind of wanted to try that, and the attention just wasn't there for football division one, like track division one.
00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:45.200
So just dual sport athletes, that's a whole nother podcast within itself.
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:54.159
And getting two two programs to agree to to do such a thing, especially with football, you know, football is life.
00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:56.399
Um, most places you go.
00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:07.360
So I would say, what should like a 15, 16-year-old actually be doing right now if they want a shot at a a program or SEC program like Oklahoma?
00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:09.440
What what what are the things that they should be doing?
00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:17.440
I mean, there's a there's a couple things, and and a lot of it comes with kind of and I don't use a concept of trust to process because I I think there's you have to put a lot more trust in yourself.
00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:30.080
That's not my favorite terminology, but I think sometimes people have the opportunity to tie in with the coaches at their high school or some great club coaches, some some people that promote you, some putting yourself in a competitive environment where you may not be the best.
00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:36.240
You may not be the superstar, you may not feel like you're getting the attention you want, but you you you gotta you gotta compete with some other dogs.
00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:38.159
You gotta you gotta train with some other dogs.
00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:41.600
And I think at some point you gotta take your craft ex extremely seriously.
00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:47.519
There's a lot of people now around the country that are getting trained by former collegiate coaches, former Olympians.
00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:59.919
They're trained with pros, they're trained at a at a level where they're gonna separate themselves much faster, even if that person, you know, a young young man or woman has the opportunity to get there, they may not be there in that same speed.
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:03.600
So I think you have to, first of all, you you have to you have to grind on the track.
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:09.120
You have to do what you're gonna do and you have to do it at a high level, and you gotta start treating yourself like a like an early professional in this.
00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.279
And not everybody has those resources, not everybody has that guidance or that coaching.
00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.000
Um, but I think it's worth investing and seeking it out.
00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:21.200
Every other sport to go spend$1,000, go to these AAU programs and go here, travel all over the country.
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:25.919
And our sport may just go at the place that's closest to our neighborhood, and that may not be enough.
00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:30.960
Um and the and the ones I'm starting to see really separate themselves early, especially in technical events.
00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.879
Um, you know, there's there's some that are genetic events, and there's some that are a little bit more technical.
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:36.960
But I think all of it have a technique to it.
00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:45.840
But especially for those technical events, if you're a hurdler or if you're a jumper or you're a thrower, if you haven't found that that one, and like I said, a lot of these high school coaches can't go into the summer.
00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:47.919
They can't keep training you all through the summer.
00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:48.159
Right.
00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:49.759
But that's what we evaluate the most.
00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.639
And so that's where you have to get ready to put on your show sometimes.
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:58.799
And I think that investment has to come from families, have to come from these programs that allow them to get out there and really display what they can do.
00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:01.759
And then after that, uh, you know, you have to market yourself a little bit.
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:06.559
You know, people put things on social media and may put their favorite jewelry, their favorite clothes, their favorite cars.
00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:11.279
But I think at some point you gotta you gotta build your own profile that shows that, you know, I'm putting the work in this thing.
00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:16.080
You gotta make a coach go click on multiple things and say, let me see what this person's, you know, really doing.
00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:18.879
And and then we mentioned NIL to start this thing up.
00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:20.879
This is where you build your platform for that.
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:25.120
Because once you get to college, they're looking for the they're looking for the person with a hundred thousand followers.
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:29.279
They're looking for the person with all these interactions, they're looking for people with that personality.
00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:36.559
And as coaches, if you know, if we can't accept that new world, then we really don't need to be in this profession because that's gonna be the new model, everything we do.
00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:41.360
That's how things are evaluated as far as NIL deals that you can receive even on your own.
00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:52.799
Um so I I think this, I think as this thing changes and evolves, I think people just have to learn how to become kind of their own self-marketers, but that then they they gotta put in the work because we still have an object objective number style sport.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:59.200
Yeah, I think what I'm saying is it looks like athletes have to get serious um a lot quicker than they usually would.
00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.159
I got the saying that high school is three years.
00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:12.240
Like, don't just go in knowing that high school is three years because by the time the end of your junior year, when you apply for college, they're looking at your three years of your academics.
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.240
You know, senior year grades are not out.
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:24.480
And if you're lucky, you definitely want those marks that are recruitable after your junior year that you don't have to really rely on something great happening your senior year.
00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:27.519
That I mean that's like the least stress-free situation.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:34.399
What is the biggest mistake that you may see um from athletes and families make in this recruitment process?
00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:35.039
You know what?
00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:41.039
I think what I've noticed, and the only reason I've I found this out a little bit more because, and and I'm I'll put it in two tiers.
00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:49.360
Say if you have an elite level person, um, sometimes elite level people may have a dream school or maybe a coach that might even work with them the best.
00:16:49.440 --> 00:17:00.080
There's people they may connect with, or teams that may be a little bit more their vibe, but because they sat back and thought their times were gonna do it all, sometimes they didn't reach out, sometimes they didn't connect with other athletes on the program.
00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.440
One thing I'm seeing change the most now is some of these elite level athletes.
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:08.400
I mean, our college, our college kids are doing majority of the recruiting because I get on there and I'm thinking I'm on top of some stuff.
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:12.640
I'm trying to go recruit a kid I see, and they're following three of my athletes on the team already.
00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:16.160
Uh and you're starting to see this thing evolve more and more.
00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:22.160
And and and a lot of things that are kind of brought up are brought up from people on our team, people that they know or coach, what do you think about this person?
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.880
You got you got championship caliber teams that want to get better.
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:26.799
So they're out there looking for the best as well.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:34.720
But I think sometimes if there's a program that that fits what you're looking for, and you know that you can't, you can be getting recruited and offered by 20 different schools.
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:41.920
If there's schools that you may be really into or coaches that you really think you'd work well with, or whatever it may be, I think you need to try and connect.
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:46.640
Uh, I think that's the top elite level thing because sometimes people end up just taking what comes to them.
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:49.200
And I think that's sometimes the wrong move to make.
00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:57.279
And I think in that next level of that kind of developmental level, the people that are getting close to, okay, you've hit the marks, now everybody wants to hit you up.
00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:01.039
Uh, I think that's when they also have to do that same level of work.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:04.799
And it's not just the cold emails and doing this and doing that.
00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:05.839
Sometimes you got to share it.
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:12.400
Sometimes you got to reach out to other people, sometimes you have to connect with the athletes, sometimes you have to learn a little bit more of those teams' needs.
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:17.119
But I think you also have to expand your mind to programs that are a little bit outside the box.
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.240
Some programs you may, oh, well, they this place has all the best four by ones and all the best sprinters, all the best jumpers.
00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:28.880
And so you you get locked in on these one few programs, especially if you're that middle tier, meaning you're trying to get there, man.
00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:31.200
You need to open that box wide open.
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:39.599
Uh take a look and and reach out because there's some places may not even contact you because they think you may, okay, you ran 11-3 and you've run 2380.
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:41.440
Oh, you're not gonna, you're not gonna talk to us.
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.880
But these big schools or these dream schools aren't really reaching out to them.
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:56.640
And so once again, they keep this little small box of schools that they choose from and don't realize, you know, yeah, this this program wasn't in a four by one and a national champions or four by four, but I'm I'm pretty sure there's a program and a coach there that wants to get it there.
00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.559
So sometimes you're reaching out to the best versus reaching out to the ones you can help build up.
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:15.279
And I think that's where I think a lot of people uh make mistakes and lose opportunities and go into debt for no reason when there's a place you could have been a record holder and you could have helped change the culture and build that group up where you're at, especially these natural-born leaders that I run into all the time.
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.200
I'm like, I don't care what program you show up to.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:21.599
If you're ready to work like you say you're ready to work, you're gonna you can turn it around, you can build something up.
00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:25.119
And if they have any kind of support of what you're trying to do, you're gonna see it grow.
00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:31.200
And there's teams you go back five, six years ago, they may not have had jumpers, they may not have distance, they may not have really had a sprint program.
00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:38.319
Next thing you know, you change one piece, a coach, you change one piece, this, all of a sudden this thing is the sprint factory or the jump factory, the throw factory.
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:44.480
So I let you know every place has the potential to do that, but sometimes you get narrowly focused by just looking at the NCAA meet.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.000
Here's the eight teams in the finals.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:47.359
I want to go to one of these eight schools.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:47.599
Right.
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.079
And I think people, I think people make a drastic mistake with that.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.079
Yeah, it's very limiting.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:57.440
So you mentioned earlier something, you know, about the the women's scholarship versus the men's scholarship.
00:19:57.599 --> 00:19:59.680
Do you see that changing in the future?
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:10.799
Like that was a big shock to me having um a daughter get recruited first, which was like 10 times easier than getting my son recruited when I thought like his marks were better than hers.
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:14.079
But I'm like, I didn't know this about the men's side.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:19.279
Yeah, no, Title IX, once we put that law in perspective, that was long before really we're in this stage.
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.519
But when you start talking about some gender equity and Title IX laws, a lot of people are trying to balance.
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:40.000
And the NCAA did it with the 45 and 45, but a lot of conferences start doing 45 and 35, and a lot of things internally, people have been making those adjustments because if you have 45 men and you also have football and you also have these large roster sports, at some point you have to get the women and the men equal.
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.400
Uh and you had goes based off of your student population at your university.
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.359
So if you're 50-50 university, you can be 50-50 numbers.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:54.400
But right now, and typically around the country, you see a higher percentage of women in in in college, and so they have to balance those numbers.
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.880
And so they use sports like ours to balance it.
00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:00.720
So fine, give us 45 women or 60 women on your roster.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:03.279
We need to try and get to about 35 or 40 on the men.
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:14.079
And so you limit the roster, you kind of limit the the resources you put into it because when you're starting to give almost 100 scholarships plus to programs like football, which I'm not trying to bash them because they pay everybody's bills, right?
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:19.680
Uh, but but when you put 100 scholarships into those, there's not that many women's sports to get up to that number.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:25.440
And so you have to continue to decrease from sports like baseball, even if you have a soccer program, definitely track and field.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:26.960
Um, so you're gonna see that.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:28.880
I think it's gonna get tougher and and tougher.
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.319
I think it's gonna get even more specific of what people look that uh look for.
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:39.200
And I think especially with the international insurgents, of how so many more international athletes are jumping into the fold.
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:42.880
People are taking a few more chances on some potential ready made.
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.400
Uh the five for five does help.
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:52.799
I think again, the high school, I think one of the things that brings that back into balance is you know, maybe there won't be as many twenty five and twenty six and twenty seven year old freshmen taking spots.
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:53.599
Absolutely.
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:59.759
Um it'd be, you know, if we get to compare eighteen year olds to eighteen year olds, I uh there's a really good chance our country.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:04.720
In the US and the high school athletes, we'll have at least an equal shot at this thing.
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:12.640
But you can't go around beating a bunch of 22 and 23 year old veterans who've been doing this a long time, had a chance to mature, and they get to walk in to be freshmen.
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:17.519
Um, but that was the way this the NCAA worked, and so everybody played with those rules.
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:20.880
And I think now that could shift it back to the high school a little bit more.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:25.359
So when you asked that question before, I never put in perspective with the age limitation.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:41.920
Yes, especially especially for men like an 18-year-old boy coming out of high school versus, I mean, I think about uh the Indiana University, University of Indiana that just won the the football championship, those guys, there was pretty old guys on that team.
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:42.799
You know what I mean?
00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:43.599
Oh yeah.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:45.200
Sports like that, it's everything.
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:46.079
It's it's everything.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:48.240
And and we're developmental sport, it takes time.
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:54.720
You you compare any 18-year-old to themselves three or four years from now, their senior year, they're they're different human beings.
00:22:54.799 --> 00:23:03.839
And and at the end of the day, if if I'm getting an opportunity as a coach, yeah, I'm gonna go after this 23-old established and potentially bring them in as a freshman, they still got four years with me.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:10.559
Yeah, we're we're we're gonna we're gonna roll that dice that way versus uh probably the development that we all grew up and raised on.
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:15.920
I mean, most coaches where they're at right now because of things that you know they the development they've done, that's how you become better coaches.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.759
But at the end of the day, we also are are tasked with the responsibility to win.
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:30.559
And if that's uh more of the winning formula to get people who are diamond league races and people that were Olympians already, people that were already on contracts and things like that, then it's yeah, we we have to look that route.
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:32.799
But it's I think that will help it level off.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:37.599
And and I'm excited about it, to be honest with you, because the the coaching part is the the thing that excites me the most.
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:38.400
Yeah.
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:47.519
So if if affordability isn't an issue, how open is your program to like walk-ons uh and and development?
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.839
Do you do you have time for that on that level?
00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:55.359
You absolutely have time, but once again, the thing that's gonna change that is the the roster limitation.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.440
I and I don't have the number on it, but I think I did a quick little math on it.
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:04.079
But when they did the new roster limitations, it probably limited just in the P4.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:13.119
Uh, when you say let's just say we got, you know, 16 or or 15 men's teams, and every team cut 10 to 15 people from that roster.
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:13.599
Yeah.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:22.240
I mean, that's that you're talking about 150 to 200 people just like that that no longer can get P5, not even I'm not talking about scholars position, they can't even get a roster position.
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:22.480
Right.
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:27.359
You know, then you start going on to every conference down the line who've done something somewhat similar.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:34.559
You've eliminated almost 500 to 700 spots in track and field programs across the country for men.
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:45.920
And people don't realize that they actually did the same thing almost numbers-wise to women, uh, because that number was typically 55 to sometimes 60 on a lot of rosters, and now you cap it at 45.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:48.720
So it's it's it's gonna it's limited participation.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:53.599
It raised the amount of people who can get scholarships and a small window of people who can get that.
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:57.119
But I think from the opportunity perspective, it it really limited opportunity.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:10.640
So when walk-ons connect with me, and I talk to my staff about the potential of walk-ons, like they better pretty much be scholarship worthy because we only have you know 35 or less people that we can put on a roster, and we have to bring 32 to a conference meet.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:12.880
So, I mean, this is not a lot of room for error.
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.519
Indoor, we bring 27 or 30 and 27.
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:15.759
Sorry.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.440
SEC is 30 uh outdoor and 27 indoor.
00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:26.319
Uh, some of the conferences move up to around that 32, 33 range, but they're all right there in that small little window of, you know, that.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:27.359
But here's the thing, too.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:36.160
If we have 50, 55, or 45 women on a roster, but you go to a SEC, you go to a Big 12, any kind of power force school, you can only bring 27, 28 indoors.
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:41.440
I mean, that's potentially near 20 women that are wondering why I can't even travel to a conference championship.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:47.680
Why I have to just go to these meets and so you may get these roster spots, but you know, you're not gonna be forced to transfer.
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:55.119
You're not gonna be forced, but when someone tells you you may not make my travel squad for the next three or four years, you may not ever go to a conference championship for the next four years.
00:25:55.279 --> 00:26:00.480
Like that's a demoralizing conversation to have, and that's what keeps forcing people to to transfer porters.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:04.720
They're not getting cut, they're getting opportunities cut, not their not their necessarily their roster spots.
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:12.880
And and just by you saying that I can see how other lower divisions outside of D one can get more appealing to student athletes too.
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.640
I think you're gonna start seeing some crazy talent on the D2.
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:23.039
I mean, if not already, I'm sure it it's there on the D two and D three level because of opportunities that they can get.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:28.160
And they're great athletes, but it's just not enough room everywhere for everybody to be in division one.
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:36.640
Yeah, no, that's my that's why I got started at Samuson State, a small division one, and that's how I kind of really understood how to grind, how to work, how to work with less.
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:41.279
And, you know, but the thing that happened at Samuson State, like people went there and they graduated in four years.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:43.519
They they spent their time, they did their eligibility.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:27:04.160
Now, if you develop at any one of these lower level, division two, division three, NAIA, there's there's there's gonna be very, very few four-year, five-year graduates of those kind of programs because as soon as you do well, the biggest recruiting tool you have right now is going to the region meeting, watching somebody jump well and you watching other people with all these other resources, you're one of three people from your team.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:11.680
You watch people bring in two charter buses uh with with you know 40 people, 45 people, and you're like, I want to be a part of that.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:16.160
Uh and and it wasn't as big of a thing back in the day because there was a one-time transfer rule.
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:20.960
And so if you made that you made that move, you better have been sure that move was spot on perfect.
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:28.240
So people felt like I'd rather stay home, you know, stay with the team that helped raise me versus always run to the next because I don't know what it's gonna be.
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.039
But now if someone goes to one school and they don't like it, they move again.
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:33.200
They go to the next school, they don't like it, they can move again.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:42.000
So it's uh it's giving them the power, but it's also taken the power, I think, away from some of the smaller divisional programs who I think have some of the best coaches, best programs.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.359
I think they do an incredible job with the with what they have.
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:51.200
Uh, but once again, they're fighting just to retain talent that they helped develop and that they saw promising.
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:52.799
And I remember being in that boat.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:58.160
And even when I was at Texas Tech when I first got there, you start feeling like, okay, this isn't the school everybody knows.
00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:05.359
And so you like, you don't want it to become that theater school where, you know, we build up all Americans, big up champions, and next thing you know, they're trying to run to the the big name.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:08.240
Um so it's it's it's it's gonna happen across the board.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:09.200
I think it's here to stay.
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:25.200
Yeah, it's uh it's hard, and like you said, even even though they can transfer multiple times, and and maybe that'll be changing because um I seen like one transfer, and I don't know if the NCAA officially passed this, but then the next transfer, you may have to sit out a year.
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:30.559
So if they if they do that, then that's definitely messing with some of your five-year eligibility.
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:38.400
But yeah, big decisions to make, and you know, don't just transfer because you didn't have a good day with the coach one day.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:39.440
You know what I mean?
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:42.480
Like you gotta get some thicker skin out here.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:47.519
And they already threw out that uh that's the first thing they threw out in the new five for five when I think the final legislation passed.
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:51.680
They didn't take over, they they took away the one-time transfer thing, so they can still move as much as they want.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:52.799
That's that, yeah.
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:54.559
I I don't know what to say about that.
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:57.519
Like it again, don't always go.
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.079
I mean, it depends I guess it depends on your goals.
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:08.799
If you're chasing NIL and money and not really trying to develop as the greatest athlete you can be, then yeah, I could see, you know, transfers happening every year.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:18.880
But if you really want to be developed, I think sometimes you have to stay put um to be developed and not change coaches and teams every every time you see a money, money grab.
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:20.000
And that's for any sport.
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:21.200
Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:21.920
Absolutely.
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:29.759
And in the you know, and now they have five years, but I just I I do the tr we do transfers and stuff all the time, but it just I hate to see how many credits sometimes people lose to go places.
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:30.480
Oh my goodness.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:32.720
They're taking major steps, they're doing an extra year of school.
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:39.680
They're doing, they could have had a master's degree and they're about to take five just to get an undergrad and maybe still have to step back for a six year just to finish it.
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:40.960
That's crazy.
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:50.160
So last thing I will ask is like just what advice do you have for high school recruits out here that may be discouraged?
00:29:50.480 --> 00:30:03.680
They're with the portal, it's it's uh, you know, what I've heard I think I've heard maybe you say this in an interview, it's like their 13th year of high school and they're just not attractive to other programs, especially big programs, and and they may have the talent.
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.200
What do you say and what advice do you have for those high school athletes?
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:16.400
I probably give them the same advice I give to a lot of coaches that I I mentor and coaches that mentored me and through my path and had a lot of volunteer coaches, been through a whole system of it.
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:17.519
Get your foot in the door.
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:19.839
I think so many people hesitate getting their foot in the door.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:20.799
I don't care where it's at.
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:23.680
I don't care if it's at the NAIA JU code, whatever.
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:25.279
Uh I'm I'm one of them big fans.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:26.319
I'm not a big fan of debt.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:28.559
So even kids I recruit, people know my motto.
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:32.799
Like, if I'm recruiting you and you gotta come here and you gotta take out loans, there's another school for you.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:34.720
Because I'm just not a big fan of that.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:44.319
I just think that there's opportunities out there, and I'd rather see somebody not come to me versus going to debt for a logo or for the uh get get your foot in the door.
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:50.000
I don't and I will say this no matter what, find coaches, find people you can communicate with, find programs where you think you can develop.
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:53.599
At some point, you may have to bet on yourself a little bit, but bet on yourself.
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:56.480
Give yourself an opportunity to get on the track, get some training.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.960
It may be local, it may be cheaper for you to stay in state and stay close to home, do this, do that.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:20.480
But if you get an opportunity to get your foot on the door versus walk-on versus small scholarship versus okay, I can go to this school, I can go to that school and pay nothing, uh, I I think you take your chances betting, betting on yourself, but also doing your best to stay as much out of debt as possible, to be honest with you, because once again, once you start in that motion, you kind of get stuck in that motion.
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:26.559
Um but I think if you can get someplace where you can go out there and you can really grow, you can thrive, you succeed, you gotta work at it.
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:31.200
Because if you think you're just gonna show up and just be like everybody else, you got to find a way to separate yourself.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:37.279
And I think that's the one thing that I talked to athletes on their team uh that may start off as a walk on, it may start on a small scholarship.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:42.079
But I'm like, I'm giving you a clear path how to you completely get this full scholar.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:44.480
There's a path to this, and you can outwork some people.
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:48.160
And I can show you a long list of people who did this before you, but this is what they did.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:49.839
They didn't do what every other college kid did.
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:53.519
They didn't do what sometimes every other all-American that's sitting on their same campus is doing.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:04.720
They had to go out there and do things that other people weren't willing to do, and give up things that some people weren't willing to give up and get themselves at a level of focus that, you know, and and I say it all the time, high school, I mean freshman, sophomore year, it's like 13th grade.
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:09.440
So yeah, you can come in there thinking that's your first freedom from home, from your parents, from all the responsibility.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:20.559
But if you can kind of push that to the side, get laser focused, lock into what it's gonna take to care of yourself mentally, emotionally, physically, still keeping the spiritual side, if that's what even got you there.
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.720
I think that's I think that's more important than anything.
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:32.640
And if you continue to do that, you're gonna get opportunities either at the program that you're at, or once again, just like we can in our professional world, we look to elevate and move up and and and move in our career.
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:34.880
You have an opportunity to move up in your career.
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.160
But I say before you go uh jobless, get you a job first.
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:39.519
Get your foot in the door.
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:41.039
Yeah, that's it.
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:43.599
That's a great way to describe it.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:44.720
I'm jobless.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:46.960
You could be jobless if you keep on this path.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:47.440
Right.
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.559
Let's not be jobless and then get you a job, then work your way up.
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:54.400
And I think everybody has a has the ability, and I've seen it countless times.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.079
I can't tell you how many people I've seen that turn nothing into something.
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:02.240
I can name 10 people on my program right now that turn nothing into something.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:07.519
And and so if you get that opportunity, you get your foot in the door, you just gotta go to work and you can't be like everybody else.
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:11.440
Gotta, you you're only gonna you're only gonna get there by doing what other people aren't willing to do.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:12.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:13.599
No, that's great advice.
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:20.160
And um, again, I've lived it and I think um my son, he he ended up in a really good situation.
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:22.640
We're excited, we'll see what happens.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:27.039
Um, but yeah, thank you uh for being on recruitable.
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:30.640
I'm always following uh the Oklahoma Sooners.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:32.640
I used to be a resident of Oklahoma.
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:36.400
Dad was in the military, so I lived in Lawton, Oklahoma for a little bit.
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:38.559
Um, so yeah, it's exciting.
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:40.559
Um looking forward to seeing what you do.
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:45.279
I'll be looking for you as a coach in the uh 2028 Olympics in Los Angeles.
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:47.200
I'll start that campaign for you right now.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:49.920
I'm gonna put my cap on, we'll put my USA store cap on.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:51.279
It's ready.
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:53.279
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:34:00.400
And hey, this will not be the last time that we'll ask you to come on and share some gems of recruitable.
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:03.119
But until next time, just thank you for being on here.
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.079
Appreciate the inviting.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:05.519
Yeah, I'll hop on anytime.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:06.720
Just let me know.
