Shared Kitchen Confidential

Amanda: 0:02
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own. The pod also contains explicit language and occasional references to mature content and themes. To review our full notice and disclaimer, please visit our website at ProofingStage. com. This is Amanda Schwarz.
 
Joan: 0:20
I'm Joan Kanner.
 
Michelle: 0:21
I'm Michelle Bond.
 
Amanda: 0:23
And this is Proofing Stage.
 
Joan: 0:25
Happy end of year. This episode is a double wide. I don't know. I don't know. There we are, it just happened.
 
Amanda: 0:35
At this point in the Bottoms Up Bagel story, we join Michelle and Joan as they move their fledgling company into an incubator, or is it really a commissary kitchen? Well, things aren't always as they seem, although sometimes things are exactly as they seem in these tales from Shared Kitchen Confidential. 
 
Buckle up friends. As Joan so succinctly stated, this is a double episode. The first part is a rundown of the kitchen and what that was. The second dives into the experiences of sharing a kitchen with several, well, maybe we should say many other food businesses. Michelle leads off with a bit more about cottage law and how the nature of that beast helped push things into this new direction. 
 
Thank you for joining us for this third episode of Proofing Stage. And now Shared Kitchen Confidential.
 
[interlude]
 
Alright, we've moved out of the church, which is so sad because you're not going to have any more interactions with questionable gatherings under the Lord's eyes.
 
Michelle: 1:56
I mean to be clear. There were community events and they were like a great service, you know. I mean, why not, right?
 
Joan: 2:02
I should also say that I am a recovering. or lapsed, Catholic, but I have gone to a Creed concert in the past and I really enjoyed it. I'll just leave that there.
 
Amanda: 2:13
That's going to take me a minute to process.
 
Joan: 2:17
We can unpack that in a different episode.
 
[interlude]
 
Michelle: 2:22
The other thing we hadn't mentioned under cottage law was you're buying temporary licenses. So you can operate a certain way, but with the health department you would need to get a temporary license tied to a specific event. So these are mainly meant for people who are doing like food festivals and things where you get kind of a one-time or, you know, it's available for two weeks - or something like that - permit that allows you to sell at that event if you do not have like a kind of a permanent, annualized health permit from whatever the county's health department is.
 
Amanda: 2:55
So does that mean that every time you were going to a farmer's market, you were getting a license for each individual time that you were showing up?
 
Michelle: 3:05
Basically, yes, I mean if it was the same market and we were there twice in a month, like it would cover it. But yeah, and there's a cost associated with those, and that's the case in different jurisdictions too. So if we're doing the Catonsville farmers market, you need one for Baltimore County. If you're doing... we did one in Anne Arundel County.
 
So this is also part of the game that's going on and that's happening even when you're in a commercial space, if you're out of your county, but just the different layers to be aware of. And I think, like anything, when you're starting out and you're excited, you're just like, “okay, what do I got to do? I did that,” “what do I got to do? I'll do that” and get all the steps in place to do the thing that you want to do.
 
Amanda: 3:46
But you've decided that you're going to be moving into a different space, taking that next step. What were your options? We're talking about 2015 at this point.
 
Michelle: 3:57
Yeah, '16. Yeah, I mean the options were limited. For sure, one who was on the farmers market circuit who had visions of expanding even a little bit. There was kind of this internal conversation about places that were being built. Or you know, “there's one down in South Baltimore and there's one in North Baltimore and there's rumors of something happening in East Baltimore,” you know, and I remember at one point stopping by a farmers market to talk to somebody who actually, eventually was in the kitchen with us and she tipped me off. She's like, “oh, there's this one that's not even built yet.” And so because the whole process of finding sanctioned spaces that were available when you needed them, that had the equipment that you needed at a price you could afford, all of those factors became really hard to come by. And, like I said, I did know a couple of people who were successful in restaurants during closed hours, but typically they had already had a relationship with you know, it was their friend's restaurant or their parents' or something like that. 
 
So it was a little tough, but we had our eyes on a commercial space that was coming together and we actually ended up being the only the second member in there. So in retrospect too, a lot of what we were experiencing from them was also, I think, their own learning process and growing pains around running a business of that type. But for us it was exciting. I mean it was like you know, this countdown to when we would be able to move in there, just because it would mean, obviously, a full catering license that we would be operating with, so that meant we could sell to the public basically in any way, shape or form. So when we finally were in a large commercial space and able to start really operating as a food business, it did feel like a game changer.
 
Amanda: 5:44
You know this gives … this adds another layer of respect to anybody that I see in any kind of situation where there is a shared, like, incubator type situation, because all these people are not just showing up with their product but they're coming through a system they're working through, I don't necessarily say bureaucratic though I'm sure that there is a level of bureaucracy that is behind all of this, absolutely. But knowing that there are certain standards and certain things that they need to be thinking about, like these aren't half-baked concepts, these are people…I mean, some of it, I'm sure, is somewhat half- baked, but these are people who are putting a lot of thought and effort and work into these, these businesses, and it's really commendable.
 
Joan: 6:23
Or paying people to do it. I think, yeah, the people pay these Sherpas or like these... and not even like a, maybe kingmaker-type people, to do the same stuff that Michelle has been doing again, again, again, and in different jurisdictions ahead of time, so we can produce [there]. So I just want to say, well done on that, Michelle, and I think that, like that, people get paid a lot of money and like they're given, like these, really high positions, in cultures including Baltimore, for shepherding this, and you didn't need that for us.
 
Michelle: 6:53
Well, there's, like you know, there are consultants that can help you, which we certainly, you know, tried to get a little bit of learning from, but yeah, there's… I think there's a difference between people who know the food code, right? And they're going to help you go through the process more quickly, but you still need to get all your stuff together. You still need to know what you're doing, you still need to know your process and have laid it out and thought it out and you know. But then I think the piece that you're touching on is, yeah, depending on the, the system, right? Like in all systems, things can be abused or, you know, there's the “who you know” game. So I think the other piece of that is there are just people who you know, you pay them enough and you don't have to think about anything, and but I think, for the most part in a space like we were in and in spaces that we've been in across the country, that is true. And I, and I will say too, that's an extra piece not to - I don't know the process in other industries - but I do think that's one thing that makes food makers also…there are just different challenges. So throughout this time, you know, we've talked about just being entrepreneurs generally and being part of other accelerators or other programs that are meant to support startups, and a lot of times we're not able to benefit from them as much as I think other people are, because the number of hoops and processes in food, in addition to the smaller margins and things they just... [it] makes it, it makes it a less enticing prospect for these organizations. So unless you're manufacturing a consumer packaged good, (CPG) a lot of times there isn't a place for, like, there's not a place for restauranteurs generally in these spaces, because the hoops you have to go through are so different and the level of difficulty is higher, frankly.
 
Joan: 8:40
I will say in terms of the ServSafe managers exam, there's one question I think illustrates what Michelle has been saying really, really well. The question basically, and I'm paraphrasing, is “what's the safest food you can put out there,” or “what like, has like the least amount of hoops?” And the answer is: "when you resell something somebody else made."
 
Michelle: 9:04
Yeah, good point in terms of, you know, respect for artisans or craftspeople. That's the other thing. I mean, we were starting BUB at a time when there was this big artisan push which, on its face, we rejected because we're like "it's bagels and we're not fancy and we're for everybody." But the fact is, it was a craft-made product that had its own level of challenges to preserve quality and to scale. But it's a good point, Joan. It's a good point. And so, yeah, when it comes to the kitchen space, you have people who have gone through this process to some degree, right? Ranging from what Joan's talking about versus people who are catering, who are just like you know, buying stuff at BJ's and repackaging it and selling it. And I mean it's fine, right? It's a service. And then people who are doing really, like, artisan products you know, hand pies or obviously, lots of sweets makers and bread makers, hot sauce makers and [it was] such an exciting time like, if I put myself in the place of moving in there, just being like, “oh my god, this is the first time we're using commercial equipment." Especially in the early days, you had a lot of food entrepreneurs who were not originally from food. You may have had a couple people who had worked in kitchens and been prep cooks... a new kind of kitchen culture, but you also had a lot of people who were like us, who were like career changers or who had an idea or were trying to solve a problem and they were super passionate about it. And they, you know, have this entire beautiful new commercial kitchen to use and work with, and you also had the camaraderie of other people who were doing what you were doing.
 
[interlude]
 
Joan: 10:53
At first it was billed as an incubator, which means we would be getting different supports in terms of our growth, and while changing the model that you're in is like not illegal or wrong, I still feel like there's something, if not morally, but just like professionally… I think, if we knew that things were going to slowly but surely morph into a commissary kitchen - which is a shared space with no support - just, you know, they provide equipment and then there's lights on and the cold place is meant to keep cold and all that, as a kitchen that you rent out. That would have been fine if we knew, along the way, that the model was changing based on either profits or degree of difficulty that the people who owned the space were making determinations based on. But we can definitely tell you that from the inside, it just seemed like things were being changed. The website was being changed about what they were offering, slowly but surely, and that felt to me like a trick or just that just felt to me a little bit like shifty or shady.
 
Amanda: 11:51
Did this happen within the space that you came to like what happened?
 
Joan: 11:55
So when you rent at this kitchen, at least moving in, you get half of a prep table, so you can keep your stuff under half of a prep table. You get dry storage. You can pay for different cold storage. Either some shelves are in the giant reach-in or walk-in refrigerator and or the freezer. So it was also billed as an incubator which would have different programming and different business guidance or management; in addition to you making your product in this place where you do have access to certain equipment.
 
Amanda: 12:29
You're coming in. You're like we're gonna have our own space but then we're sharing it with other people. But it's understood that there are boundaries here, that you're only supposed you're supposed to be in this space. Did people for the most part not pay attention or what? What happened?
 
Joan: 12:44
When only a few businesses were in there and you have something like, I'll say, 12 to 15 prep tables, maybe, like when someone's not around you use the top of their table because that's closer to a burner. So I think it worked fairly well. I think we were all relatively... I think the culture of the first group of people - to Michelle's point - was very much like a warm startup mentality where we're all pretty excited to be able to do this thing. Everything was gleaming and shiny and I have to say like it was quite the sweeping feeling of just like being on your own with this cohort of people for the most part, who did very different things. So even in that case, maybe you were competing for who got a chance to use a tilt skillet, but you really weren't competing in terms of like market share and I think that's interesting too and like we were initially from... I remember Michelle, please correct me if I'm just like really having like these really shiny, happy visions of how things were, but for the most part we were like communicating to each other. They were being emailed like “who needs the tilt skillet this hour?” It's a very popular bit of equipment. You shouldn't have to have two [tilt skillets]. You know it's reasonable to want to like maximize what's being used when.
 
Michelle: 13:43
The kitchen itself was a startup, and the kitchen itself was a business, so it needed to make money. And so what happens then? You know there are different models, right, like some kitchens you pay by the hour, some of them you pay by the month or you know. And so the way that the kitchen that we were in operated was like you know, they only really made money if they packed the number of people that were in there.
 
[interlude]
 
Joan: 14:19
The preparation space was one big ass room between the machinery and the people and what not. And also just keeping your space private and keeping people out of your shit and out of your way. 
 
Amanda: 14:32
That sounds impossible. How many, how many years did you do it for? 
 
Michelle: 14:35
Like three and a half.
Three and a half, almost four years. 
 
Amanda
Is there an area within the space where people are also able to purchase your stuff?
 
Michelle: 14:41
It did have an event space attached to it, but that was more like a rentable space for weddings and conferences and things. It wasn't like a retail area. However, we could sell, and many businesses did, you know you could do order pickups and things like that. 
 
Amanda
How many businesses were in there total?
 
Joan: 14:55
As much as two dozen. I feel like…
 
Michelle: 15:00
No, more. There was at one time almost like 30 to 40 businesses in there 
 
Amanda
Yikes!
 
Michelle:
And, granted, not everybody's working the same shifts, but no, but “Yikes” is right. [In some kitchens] I mean there's a scheduling system which has a downside in that you're paying by the hour, which, full transparency, is markedly more than paying by the month. But there was no schedule, like when we tell people we're in a kitchen, that, where there was no schedule, where there was no way to reserve a piece of equipment, for me, walking in blind every single day when you know you have a million and one things to do and you do not know what you're walking into, was its own form of just anxiety, you know.
 
 I mean just walking in and being like, “okay, is someone going to be at my table, is somebody going to be using the thing? Is the thing going to be a mess? Am I going to have to, like, find stuff for my team?” Because the other thing is we were in there three and a half, almost four years, and we grew during that time, which was wonderful, I mean. So when we started it was two of us, then it was three, then it was five, then it was seven, you know, and like, over time, the juggling of making sure that those folks had space, but then also making sure we weren't in another people's way, because you know it takes what it takes to make your product and in order to do that, you're going to spill over into other people's space too. And so…we, there became this dance, which again kudos to all the business owners for being flexible and in figuring out a way to make it work.
 
Joan: 16:29
But it didn't... when it didn't, it just didn't. I mean, communication is so key in terms of who needs what when and who manages that. You know, like, who determines what's the appropriate way to communicate about certain items and how does that relate to folks? And is there a consequence to not behaving or to not like conforming to whatever agreed upon norms you have? 
 
Amanda
And were there consequences? 
 
Joan:
There were fines, at least initially there were fines, but that money went back to the kitchen itself. When there were fines related to like, “oh, I found something that was messy” or whatever. So even though myself or my team members would be cleaning up something, that's our time because you should be paying yourself and paying your team members, that was never... we never saw that remuneration. I mean, it was never part of the plan. I should say that, like it never stated to us [that we'd] received that back, but that would have been nice.
 
Amanda
Was that even on your radar, though?
 
Michelle: 17:28
Up front? No, but it sure was. When you are counting [hours], you know your time times. How many people are working to clean up someone else's mess and then that fine is going back to the people who aren't enforcing that that mess get cleaned up. I mean it just...
Joan:
…or cleaning it, you know, 
 
Michelle: 
Oh, I have a verbatim email that says, when I was asking about staffing to help run the space, that said something to the effect of like “I'm not willing to cut into my profits for that.” 
 
Joan
Yeah, that came from leadership.
 
Michelle
So I mean, at least you know where people stand, 
 
Amanda
That's true.
 
Joan:
I hate ambiguity, so that was good. 
 
Michelle:
And so you can see over time how things, even though there's the same... everybody goes through the same orientation. Everybody has to follow the same rules, but the ethos or the management of it starts to slip a little bit because you just want to get bodies in there who are paying to use the space, and so, you know, there are points of friction because hey, you know, “we're here at 2 am, we need to use this thing to boil the bagels. It's filthy because the people who used it last didn't clean it.” So now we're paying either ourselves or our team member to clean it for an hour and a half, and then getting set back and stuff. Like that was happening left, right and center. 
 
[interlude]
 
Michelle:
An incubator is really like, it has the programming around it to bring you from ideation to product, and the intention of an incubator is to have you grow out of the space, to have you move on, to get your own either brick and mortar or your own manufacturing or something. And whereas a commissary like, it doesn't really matter, as long as you're paying, use that space all you need to, because it's helping the bottom line.
 
Amanda: 19:43
So you're at the incubator and you've been promised a certain type of space and this is where you're going to be working, and that also comes with the package of you're going to be getting advice, right? You're going to get some sort of growth plan or they're going to talk to you about what you're doing. And you've talked about other programming not really being geared for restaurants just because of the different hoops you have to jump through being a restaurateur. But this should be the kind of space where you would get the right kind of advice and guidance and all of that. Did you experience that?
 
Michelle: 20:23
No, in short. And I think it was for a few different reasons. I mean, one was that that was a good intention. But again, when there is such a shortage of space to use in an area, so people are clamoring to get in here, their goals are all different too. So I will say that in the beginning we would have monthly speakers and things like that on different business topics. But as the place got more crowded, there were people with different goals, so not everybody is interested in participating in that. It becomes too hard to wrangle or to see, like who's on what path, and so that ends up just getting dropped altogether. Things like that like basically, essentially, when it became too hard, a lot of these things just got dropped down to even like cleaning or maintaining certain things. 
 
And so I think there was early, early on, like I think when there were only a few businesses in there, there was like this attempt to like meet with every business and talk to them about what they were doing and essentially give advice. But that's also different than a conversation. What are your goals, what is your like...? Everybody in there should have a business plan already. “Let's look at your plan, let's talk about what…” But also these were not... There are people with experience in the field, but they were also like operationally managing a brand new facility, and I think those things started to become at odds with one another because they also were not at a place to want to hire staffing separately to take care of some of those needs, and so I think it just became easier to run a space that was just a commissary kitchen, than was an incubator.
 
Amanda: 22:03
Do you think that they were being particular in terms of who they were asking to join the group, or did you feel as though they were just bringing on anybody who was willing to pay in order to keep…I understand it's a business right. Like an incubator is a business and you need to be able to pay the bills and keep the lights on. But do you feel as though there was any kind of you know, vetting process? That you know you had your core group that you started with, but the ones that came later do you feel like they went through any kind of vetting process?
 
Joan: 22:32
I will say no, but I also will go back to the guidance piece or the advice part that we just talked about and just say the…basically the talking at you aspect or the not seeing your needs piece meant they'll be hearing from the owner of the whole shebang, who was not from the food world, just repeating stuff at us. Repeating stuff at us in a way almost like when a kid learns a new word and just says it and just saying like “you're charging too much per unit, you're charging too much per unit.” It's like you know, like I'm not…and then that also led to us wasting our time in being pushed to meet with like a grocery who, when we met with them, treated us like Miranda from Devil Wears Prada. Like not talking about us, I mean talking about us around us and not engaging with us. Because we were... there were so many inefficiencies with that kitchen, incubator or not, where, besides having to like walk around a bunch of different people and like it's a big space; like [not] efficient in terms of our walking. We, at least I, felt compelled to have to meet and have these meetings with different potential wholesale clients, even though we don't make money off of wholesale, meet with this grocery store who wants to have our bagels - which they're gonna like “slut shame” in front of us - but not talk to us directly and like waste time with those meetings; accept help from local universities who have MBA programs, who just kind of want to experiment on different [businesses], and we were more open to doing those situations because we weren't getting the incubator piece to it. 
 
Granted, we also didn't give up any equity, which a lot of incubators do, including like in our region. So there's always that, right? But I really felt compelled to have to be the “good girl” and be studious and not just clean-up for people which is also a waste of time in terms of our process. And pay team members to clean up the tilt skillet and other areas, or just like pissing away hours and pissing away money.
 
I think part of us, too... there was the impact of coming in just the two of us and working just the two of us and then having to bring in people to work with us, which is just a natural part of any business, especially a food business. And thinking that's when things like really changed, too. It's like, how do people react with different staff? Are they trying to poach your staff? Are they showing a different level of cleanliness than you'd wanna have? And that's where it just became like, cacophonous, and I did not go to good places at that time because I can be territorial. And if it comes to like also the health and safety of the food we're putting out there, I'm gonna be very assertive in terms of what our standards are.
 
[interlude]
 
Michelle: 25:02
Yeah, I think we both have this protection streak too, for better or for worse, which is like it's one thing, like you probably do this too right? In your own life, it's like something is a barrier for you or an obstacle. You just like figure it out, you get over it, you do it. You just get what you had to get done. But when you have people who are part of your team that you feel like you also wanna take care of and you wanna clear the path so that they can do their best work, and then there are obstacles put in that path by other people, intentionally or unintentionally, that could be prevented with better management or better accountability, I guess, is the word I'm looking for. That was really frustrating and I think, yeah, when you're running, when you're hustling and you're running, you're bootstrapping, and you're starting your day at 2 am and you're ending it at four or five or 6 pm, things wear thin. And I recognize that is on us too, but most of the people in that place were doing the same thing. I mean, they were working their asses off, they were exhausted and they, I think people who were not in a similar situation failed to realize the extra strain that a lot of these obstacles were putting in place. That's just, you know…and then, when brought to their attention, you know they just didn't see the benefit of doing anything about them because they're gonna... You know again, it's a paycheck. 
 
Joan: 26:49
We were the squeakiest of wheels.
I feel like we really were the squeakiest of wheels and after a while I think management's reaction to that definitely engendered some learned helplessness. Where I was asking for less and expecting less. So the system worked right? And then I also regret entering and being so open to some of the more annoying and wasteful things, like all like the meetings with grocery stores that wouldn't work, or just trying to like oh, we are the “von Trapp children,” we're all gonna like be in this conference space and like offer our products up to this new grocery store which, P.S. like never opened. Like all that shit. I regret… it's so true, right? 
 
And like oh, you have to like fawn over them, and or in the meeting with those kind of people I would say like “well, what makes you…” I don't know, like, “like how much traffic do you expect?” And ask those questions and then like be kind of beaten down a little bit by like other members, like “why did you do that?” Or like “you know, like they have this thing that we want.” I'm like “what to sell our stuff for like less money?” Like this is the thing that I want? But I really wish it [didn't take] me too long to get my feet under me and to recognize the years of life and business experience that I had - and just in different fields. I feel like I was too open and porous. Thinking like, incubator brings me back to the stage of like being younger in my career. I have so much to learn. Let me be open to all this. And I think if I had relied more in my personal and professional experience, I would have been a better sorter or sifter through some of this garbage.
 
Amanda: 28:10
That's one of those “listener take note” moments where...
 
Michelle:
... right, that's so true. 
 
Amanda:
I think there's so many ways that when we try something new, we don't trust the lessons of the places where we've been and to never lose sight of it, because you know, as you have said, there are many circuses but the clowns are all the same. There are these common moments where the person who's doing this over here…it's just a different stage, they're just doing it over there. And to trust what you know, and I think the whole idea of, you know, "you're new to this, so don't ask questions" is just like terrifying.
 
[interlude]
 
Amanda:
And there was also... you had also brought up and I just... you've mentioned equity. Was equity on the table for this? I mean, is that how incubators work? Do they ask for equity as part of? And since you didn't, you said "no," they brought you on anyway, but you said "no, no equity."
 
Joan: 29:20
Oh no, no, [equity] was not on the table for this. I should be very clear with the situation there wasn't [equity].
So meaning like I can see like we would have a very different, I feel like, legal beef. For some reason they let us shrivel on the vine which, after so many years and being charged extra for our growth, which I'm happy to like, give some concrete examples of, that'd be very different. Right? Like if they had asked for equity. I think we could have demanded more.
 
Amanda: 29:43
Yeah.
 
Joan: 29:44
Just simply like pull back. There are other true incubation spaces that do, in our, in the Delmarva region that do require equity…
 
Michelle:
…and nationally, too.
 
Joan:
…and nationally yeah, absolutely, for sure. But I will say it was very different than…one example of, as we grew and as they were trying to make things more profitable for themselves is that there was an upstairs area in which businesses could rent space for things you use for events; things you don't use that often. So not your typical dry storage for your ingredients or cold storage. You would go up there and each shelf had a different price to it, so the lower shelves that are easier to access would be more expensive than the higher shelves. So they had this librarian-esque ladder/stair/step thing and we would have to put our stuff up there to save some bucks. But to me it's just like as an example of just like, you probably didn't mean for this to be an incubator or, very quickly, like you're realizing this wasn't what you were capable of doing or wanted to do in terms of lift. And I get that, and just wish we would have known sooner so we could have like changed our expectations. 
 
And then we saw different businesses come in around us, like these places that had like a billion dollars worth of funding by the time, like, before like we left. It's like this is really... I'll just, like have a moment acknowledge, like what is, see how that changes the landscape and just move on, because I think the majority of us - well some people really weren't adults - but I feel like we could have definitely heard that differently.
 
Michelle: 31:14
Yeah, and I think you know, like anything there was…being from different careers, right, having that perspective coming into this, it was incredibly exciting. Pretty quickly, though, it became evident that this was also just a microcosm of society and it was a smaller, it was a smaller world that was new to us, being from more, you know, female-focused fields or more places where you know... So, there was a lot of also just cultural stuff that was new to us in terms of the hierarchy in the food world and things like that. But I think what was troubling, too, was just seeing the way that certain businesses, like quote unquote didn't make it, you know? And so, over the course of time of being there, just seeing people come in, like, you know, either guns blazing and, you know, filter out or not. Or just being there slow and steady and trying to do their thing, but like, for one reason or another, whether it's like they weren't making the money that they needed to, whether they had to go home and take care of their kids, whether they had a spouse who wasn't supportive, whether they, you know... It's just like, you see, it was like a perfect and very eye-opening example of people who maybe typically had fewer resources being the first to kind of get churned out. 
 
And that wasn't necessarily like an active fault of the space, but it is an epitome of society in general. Right, you know, like the conversation that we were having about keeping your heads down and not getting that support because you're just grinding, I think we saw it happen. I mean, we were doing it ourselves. I think the only difference is that, like we didn't have children, we didn't have other, you know, like we had the ability to like, completely burn ourselves into the ground and only have to pay for it ourselves, you know,? And like so, but truthfully and I think that was also troubling because it was clear that this is a system. There are certain people who start this system further ahead, who get credit for being the best, and there are certain people that enter a system further behind. You know that. We've all seen the YouTube videos. You know, we know, we know this is how it works, but it was, it was really evident. 
 
And I think the flip side of that is there have been spaces that have been created specifically to address that, like food incubators, food commissaries that are just for women, minority-owned, women running businesses to, you know, address those supports. To take into consideration the things that you know particularly women, and particularly women of color, are addressing when they're entering, you know, when they have kids, when they have, you know other work to do when they have another job, you know. So that is wonderful and that's been in the works for a while, but it is troubling that you know again this whole bootstrapping mentality of like “we all start in the same place. You just got to work hard enough.” Well, like crystal clear example, like businesses that started with us in September were not there by November in many cases, you know.
 
Joan: 34:26
It wasn't for lack of like a really smart person behind the wheel or like a really good product or not getting some like family help here and there for like staffing, and I think that's where the incubation piece could have helped, if it was really…These are some people who started with us. We're not talking about later on down the line, when you have much greater, like huge businesses come in - Jesus! -  a commissary space. That's not the case at all. It was just people with amazing products that I still think about. And they're just doing other jobs now and you can argue that, yeah, same access and same equipment, ostensibly like same hours, depending on which package you chose. Ostensibly the same lease, as far as we know, we'll never know... So why couldn't they make it? And [somehow] must be them?
 
Amanda: 35:09
It's a little off-topic not, I'm not gonna... [I'll] stop saying off-topic because it's a legitimate question. Yeah, I want to start a food business. I'm considering an incubator. What are your red flags? What are the things people should be looking for and what are the things that they should, you know, both pros and cons.
 
Joan: 35:27
As long as it's not new, I would say like: "who's [already] in there?"
 
Michelle: 35:33
Yeah, I would talk to other members. I mean, we got a good sense of this also again doing the Roadshow. And you can, you can tell pretty quickly like…People are willing to be frank about it right? It's like... it's like people complaining about their bosses, right? Like they'll tell you what's good about it and what's not good about it. And I think, yeah to your point, as long as it's not new. Talk to other members, see who's in there, see what they're making. 
 
And I think to you, you know yourself as a business, you know your product, you know your audience. And so try to look for examples of that and align the input of their feedback or the advice that you're getting through that lens, because I think that's part of the problem. Like, we had a very strong sense of who we were as a business. We always wanted that brick-and-mortar, we always wanted to be community-, customer-focused and have like the sandwich making. The whole like bagel shop idea wasn't just about mass producing bagels. And even with that we, you know, you keep getting nudged and pushed and like in certain directions that may not be the best fit for you and like Joan said, there was very much this sense of like “you need to be grateful for every opportunity,” like you're getting scraps and you should be happy about it instead of, you know, being true to what you want 
 
And I think, if, if anyone is out there looking to do that, to your point earlier, Amanda, like, trust what you know, know what you don't know and then look for, like, the best examples to help you fill in those gaps. Recognizing that it's all with a grain of salt, right? Like there isn't one magic way to do this, and I think that's another... Actually, one of our business advisors said - and it's so true and I wish I took this in earlier on - you know, there are as many business models as there are entrepreneurs. And so I think we have this sense that there's one way to do this, and a lot of times that's the way that the system was created, that's “the way.” And if you're not doing it that way, you're wrong or you're not good enough or, you know, you must be not working hard enough or creative enough. And that's really not true, and it's never been more not true than it is now. 
 
And so I think that piece about knowing yourself and trusting it and sticking with it - even when you get all these distractions and pushes in other ways - is really important.
 
Joan: 37:52
Make a checklist of what's important to you and also see, like, who has spun out of the space.
I mean, depending on whether people want to talk to us, I'm happy to talk to them. Like what these... what kind of business they have, what kind of hours they need, and just have them create a list of things that matters to them. It doesn't mean you're gonna have a hundred percent awesome fit, but we're all humans, so at some point things are gonna be awkward. 
I will say to Michelle's point earlier about those spaces that exist now for women in minority-owned food businesses, I will say sometimes places get spun out of there and end up at the kitchen that we were at. So there's still like limitations to like what growth is available for them and I will say through the Roadshow we have gotten our operations down - and also that's also a big shout out to like our operations consultant on that. [We had] to figure out very quickly, had to like distill what we need, and apply that to different places, even though [it was] for a temporary part of time, I still want stuff to be, to be safe for a temporary staff. I want our food to be safe. By the time we got to Iowa I was just like “where the fuck is this kitchen? Like, where have you been all my life?" You know, because it's such an amazing space for people who want to grow and it's just, not perfect because, again, humans, but there's so many things in place to support people. 
 
Michelle: 38:57
I think it also depends on what you're making. Like, our process was so laborious that these obstacles at different points really, really wore on us. But you know, if you're coming in there and making one product one way, and you know what it is, and you have just great timing, you can. You can block everything else out. And we saw people do that very successfully.
 
Joan: 39:18
I will say one thing about programming. I'd be remiss in mentioning it if I didn't say it out loud. It was that yes, with the kitchen, we did have like those meetings regularly, but at some point it didn't. I didn't feel like the programming was helpful; it just seemed to be filler. 
 
At one point we had this guy come in who worked for Royal Farms. He was supposed to be the speaker and all it was was he wanted to show up at this meeting and he was just... He got, somehow had gotten to be in front of a group of these probably, I'll say, 20 small business owners just to ask questions, because he was personally curious about them; and to learn our tips for marketing, whereas, like he worked for their marketing. We're just like, “how are you like not vetting any of this shit? Like how'd you let this schmuck get through?"  And then like the reflection on a business is that like our time doesn't matter. We're the Von Trapp children, or we're here to be the experiment, or we're here to just have people see stuff. I mean, I can't even go there when it comes to people walking through on tours since there was an event space above. And just having them look at us like, “oh my god,” and like trying to touch things. And like it was kind of like a “people zoo” in some ways. 
 
And maybe I'm the only person who feels that way. But you know, you could just knew that people were we're walking through and doing stuff after hours when they had events [upstairs]. I just, I just hate being put on display like that. I'm not, you know, like... let me just work here. If you're not gonna support me in other ways, I'm not gonna…how would you even put it, Michelle? I'm say keep saying von Trapp child, in terms of just being, like on display. 
 
Michelle:
“Dog and Pony Show”
 
Joan:
There we go. Bada bing. 
 
[interlude]
Amanda: 40:49
And now a brief word from our sponsor.
 
Michelle: 40:54
This episode is brought to you by spray grease. Much like Christmas, it's all around us. If you know, you know.
 
Amanda: 41:07
And now back to the show.
 
[interlude]
Joan: 41:11
I think we should talk about the personnel piece because…a couple things with that. One is the potentiality for poaching. I feel like it's okay to see human resources, people resources, as just that. And if you have a similar type of ethos for your company, for me that very much includes like caring about cross-contamination and cleanliness in general, I can see that working. If your hours work in that way to like share people's time to help people have - again, it's pre-pandemic - to start, just have enough hours. It would be reasonable to have people want to go to one big ass kitchen and work for two, three different places. And then there's your 40 hour a week, you know, job. I totally get that, and theoretically that would be fine. 
 
There were some instances in which we, I would say that we poached, but I think that we did so politely or aware. Like we, I know Michelle's talked to other business owners in the kitchen and said, “oh, we'd like to work with so-and-so, we've approached them to have some hours with us. What are your thoughts on that?” And generally, it's a favorable reaction. Only time we didn't do that is when there was this one team and I think they're still in existence and this business owner was being so crummy to her staff and I can say interpersonally, was not that great, not appreciated what they do, not paying them any sort of reasonable wage and also expecting them to be okay with being on-call. Like how can you pay your bills when you are on-call for a place? Like you're not a heart surgeon making a fat salary and then you're on-call. So we ended up poaching from that [business].
 
Michelle: 42:57
 
I don't even know if it's poaching, because none of the people that we ended up bringing on were still, were actively working for those other businesses anymore. Like they had, they were at one point, but we didn't....they were not currently working for them when we asked them to join our team. 
 
Joan: 43:09
Well then, I will say this, and I feel like watching these people…one good part was just seeing these people work before they got to us. Like, if you're seeing like a really crumily, like shittily-owned and shittily-run business, having really good staff make up for their slacking, that's a person that you want to bring on. Michelle - it wasn't poaching, it was strategy. I dig that reframe, 
 
Michelle: 43:32
Well, no, I mean it just frankly, like I mean, that's the way that we did things. We were like “wow, this person's a really great worker. They're now available." And this was often, too, like a couple months later; it wasn't even like right away. But we still approached in most cases the, the ownership, just to say “hey, just so you know, this is something...” I mean. I don't know, that's what, what I would want done, you know, and but that's, that wasn't really a common practice. 
 
[interlude]
 
Joan: 44:03
Now, I know we're gonna be eking into our time, leaving the kitchen and building out the BUB Hub beta, in which case, we touch on COVID even more.
 
During that time, when it was very nascent in terms of what COVID would mean to any business - let alone these food businesses - when we were all in this shared space... I remember having a group Zoom meeting, of course with different businesses, different member businesses, and having one person say “I don’t really know if I want to go on.”  And that’s, of course, like, very reasonable. I think a lot of people were experiencing that. But we all convinced him to go on, to continue on with his business. It’s [still] been going very well, per the socials.
 
But at that time, after we all encouraged him and he was going to go on, he immediately went to try to – I’ll use that word, Michelle – “poach,” one of our bakers, and I was just like, "yeah, I don't think that's a good idea." I mean me just trying to like... we also had to "live" near these people, like you know, [we shared] these spaces... to these people like I, I'd like to say, like “fat chance asshole. We just fucking encouraged you to continue on, and now you're making bank" you know?
 
But [instead] I just described like…I like “I feel like you guys have a different level of cleanliness than we do.” I mean that that person had staff members who were cleaning out mixing bowls with brooms - like floor brooms - so I did not want to have anything to do… and also just touching things bare handed that were already at a critical control point, meaning like they're already finished, you're not going to bake them again. So it's like I didn't want to have like our person's high standards go down the shitter. So that's a reality too. 
 
Amanda: 45:45
I love how you say it's “a different standard of cleanliness.” You just say it was cleaned with a broom like that. Yeah, just yeah, that's that is “a different standard of cleanliness.” for sure. Not to interrupt, but that…
 
Michelle:
No, no, of course!
 
[interlude]
 
Michelle: 45:54
I think this just underscores some of the other points that we've been making on this topic, which is that in and of themselves, these things are really not that big of a deal, but in a space where you are packed in like sardines and working 16- to 20-hour days and trying to establish a team with no walls of your own, and boundaries, and standards for your own staff, but also just like brand, right? I talked about that early on. 
 
Like we've always seen this as a brand, where you know team and customer, and we all get like we're all moving in the same direction here. And some people are easy, are able to jump between things more easily than others. But I feel like, especially when people have only been with you a couple months and you're trying to impress different things, it's not really about what other people are doing or not doing the way that you would do it. It's just wanting to keep that focus and wanting to kind of put some arms around something in a space where it was really hard to do so. 
 
And I think that was just another thing that made us seem like really uptight and really unwilling to share and really, you know, it was just we were just really trying to kind of like, I don't know -I'm making this motion of like putting edges around a thing- because it was just so hard to do it under the circumstances that we were in, and being in there three and a half to four years - which was probably two years longer than we should have been in there. But our spaces weren't ready yet, you know, [it] was problematic because, as we said, you know it was an incubator and you are meant to grow out of it and that incubation period is different for different businesses. But for what we were doing and how we were trying to do it, I think you know that was a little too long for us.
 
Amanda: 47:51
I think it's interesting how you have turned it into a bit of a self-reflection as well. I know that I was working at a company once where…I see myself as a good and kind person who tries to do the right thing whenever I can. But there was something about the atmosphere of that company that I behaved in a fashion that I can't even believe I behaved in, and someone called me out on it and there was no way for me to back out of it and be like “well, you know,” like no. What I did was shitty, it was just shit. And maybe a few years later I saw her in a different setting and I said, “look, every time I see you I think about that thing that I did. And I just want to apologize." I mean, and she looked at me and she said "that was a really strange place and it made people do strange things." And I was... my mind was blown.
 
Because I was like crap, like, and you know, here I am thinking, “well, she's younger than me…” No, the insight and wisdom behind that, like I was just, I was shook. And you're talking about how you may have been perceived and it's interesting because, yeah, we're put in these positions where what we're doing is important and, of course, I was working for somebody at that point I should have, you know, I had no skin in the game other than a paycheck. 
 
But when you're running your own business and trying to make sure that “I”s are dotted and “t”s are crossed and you've got to get it done, I can't imagine what it was like to manage a space that was not being managed for you in any way, and having to take care of your employees, take care of the cleanliness of the product, therefore taking care of the customer, and who that turns you into. 
 
And then let's not even get into the fact that we're talking about two women business owners and the way you know, the way women are perceived when we step up and have to take care of business. Like I think it's really interesting that you just touched very briefly but on how you may have been perceived in that moment and how that all kind of, how that would be acceptable in for some business owners but not necessarily for all.
 
[interlude]
 
Joan: 50:15
That's right. I think you're definitely leading us unknowingly to the topic of unsolicited advice that also came? I feel like there's not..this is, this is [under the] category of like “It ain't too deep” but there's many an example. 
 
We're already making our smoked brisket and smoked brisket hash and selling it. It's already gotten feedback. People like it. And this is at a point where the kitchen already had that, that you know billion-dollar valuation food business selling out of it, and one of those team members…
 
Amanda: 50:54
Wait a minute, wait a minute. The kitchen had a billion dollar what?
 
Joan: 50:56
They have multiple spokes or like multiple…they had multiple kitchens and this one major business that started as a company that, like, purchased parking lots. Then they ended up deciding to use commissary kitchens to create food to be sold off of those lots and distributed through delivery services. I mean, that's a billion-dollar idea? What do I know? 
 
Michelle:
So they were one of the members in the kitchen that we shared...
 
Joan:
...when it became very much like, not an incubator. They had, like these larger outfits, you know, paying more rent than us, which makes sense, right? But at that point, they had some interesting team members, and this one guy who falls in the category for me - you'll hear this a bunch - of either “Chef von Chef” or “Chef B. Tastic” is what I refer to them. It's like people, it's specifically not always men - people of different genders - but people who, you know, they probably changed their first name to “Chef” to ensure they would be called that. 
 
So this one chef, [he] was a chef, was going to, because I was making brisket, which I had done many a-time and now had sold now for a while, was going to tell me how it should be cut before being put in the smoker. Mind you, I had never asked this person for guidance about that. I mean, we did have a business in there that involved, like, a butcher. Like I talked to him early on in the process because I just said “let's just like talk about this. I respect what you do.” [But] this is some rando guy who I think actually works for a major hotel downtown...
Michelle:
... as a pastry chef. 
Joan:
... as a pastry chef. C'mon, man.
Amanda: 52:42
Yeah, brisket and pastry is just two peas in a pod right there.
 
Michelle:
That's our next concept.
 
Joan: 52:47
And then we had another lovely example with, we have had like for years, an amazing person who I guess we didn't poach, but a veteran of food, catering, all that goodness for decades and she was helping me process lox. And this is not giving up too much - we do use lemon zest in our process to cure it. Another person who worked for a business - I will not reference what they made - because it'll take two seconds to know if you're part of that milieu that we were in like who it was, proceeds to walk over, grab the zester, and explain to her how she could be zesting better. She was already a 25-year veteran in food and catering, and God bless her heart, she just like rolled with it. But because we're going to be [working] next to these people,  [and] we already have like this reputation of being uptight bitches, I mean, do I lean into it and just say “can you, can you see who you’re fucking instructing?” But I just kind of let him, let him finish, like all those women do. Like we, just we just let these boys finish… 
 
Amanda
You’re killing me today. 
 
Joan:
So do we have a backup? If Amanda, you know, if she [croaks]?
 
Michelle: 54:03
No backup, I mean it's all over. 
 
Joan: 54:06
Damn it! Okay. I'll work on that.
 
Michelle: 54:08
But I mean that's also a, I mean again, microcosm of society. But you know, so people not only give you unsolicited advice, but they come over and like handle your shit or the shit that your team is using to insert something that you didn't ask for. 
 
Joan:
Handle and insert, okay, keep going. 
 
Michelle: 
But what then? But then the same people, when you ask, when you say, “hey, you know, like I was using this thing and your person came in and did this", they have... they're so conflict avoidant. They're just like, “oh, it's all good.” You're like, “no, it's not all good.”
 
“Actually, I have a problem with this and it's there's no tolerance for it whatsoever.” They're just like you know, talk about lanes from our first episode. Like, stay in your lane, do your thing, don't complain, don't raise any questions and certainly don't, like you know, question me or make me feel stupid.
 
[interlude]  
 
Joan: 55:05
I think I got one more for you two. I'm gonna need Michelle's help on this one. I had mentioned our member meetings and one of the members in the kitchen was a chef…
 
Michelle:
Only one?
 
Joan:
Well, one of them specifically. Well, there's, there were more than one Chef B. Tastics, Chef von Chefs. And he was a caterer, right? High five! I get that you don't need your own storefront, like I understand, getting a commissary kitchen space - which at that point we are very much hardcore in whether or not people were labeling it as that -[suffices].
 
I did not know, nor did anyone, I assume, before this meeting, Michelle and I both attended - we would like to trade off because it was just too much - you know what I mean? Like to have us both there all the time. But we are both there at this one and this dude had talked to the higher ups at the kitchen who also, again, like, had the event space above us and they had contrived some sort of plan. Or this chef, who was equal member to us, again, like you have a membership model, like you're all renters. You know we can talk about leases or not in this episode, but regardless, like we're all theoretically equal members, and he talked to leadership. They talked to him to have him, like... all catering for upstairs that might be through people inside the kitchen, to run through this chef.
 
So in terms of control, in terms of, I think, I think some of the finances as well, it would just go through him. And I remember at that point in the meeting, Michelle [and I] only had two similar, but very different, reactions.
 
Michelle: 56:46
So and things that, you know, certain spaces bring out in you. But well, I mean, my reaction was, the punchline is that I walked out like I just walked out of the meeting; disgusted and aggravated and you know. And then Joan hung in and I don't remember what happened from there. But the point, the reason I think it got to the point that I was so frustrated that that was the response that I had, was because, again, this was part of the package of the billing of this place. It was an incubator, so you would get, you would get to grow your food business and you would get the support to do so. 
 
There was also an event space which would have events that then could be catered by the businesses downstairs who - we had our own “upstairs downstairs thing going on to where,” 
 
Joan:
Like Downton Abbey? Can I be Daisy? 
 
Michelle:
Yeah, yeah, because that's also how we were treated, but that's a whole separate thing. You know, like the help. But the, there was no... Again, there was no structure for that. So the idea was that, oh and bonus these food businesses that are growing, they get to show their stuff off and make some money by working with people who are having events upstairs. But there was... that wasn't organized, and in that started to come up when people wanted to use the space for events and then they were looking for food and it would, you know, get essentially shopped around in no equitable way. Like, you know, the owner would come to somebody and say, "oh hey, I think you know you would be great for this, I'll put you in touch with so and so or this person."
 
So it was like we were all trying to get a piece of this business, but there was no process for doing so and so it was a lot of like, the more established caters were the first ones people went to, which made sense. And we did catering. We predominantly did breakfast catering, obviously, but we had catered a wedding, we had done other things and, as Joan said, there was kind of this deal made on the side that then was being presented us. To us, in a very classic way, which you can only appreciate if you have not always been in a position of power, which is one that is “look what we're doing for you, look what we figured out and you can benefit from,” except that it wasn't even done in a way that was trying to sell us on something. It was very transparent. 
 
It was basically like this chef was “well, like, yeah, and I'll get all this stuff, and there's stuff that I don't feel like doing, so I'll pass it to you and then you can have that business. There's stuff that's too small for me, so you guys can have it,” and this was decided and it was the way that things would operate. And this had been building for a while... and then put in 16- to 20-hour days, put in other obstacles, and then you can see where, like, my lid was about to pop off when this happened.
And the reason I walked out was because - how do you articulate all of this like, brewing frustration, in one succinct way, like I couldn't do it. Maybe Joan could, but my feeling was that we are all equal members. You are not paying me, I am paying you. You do not have the right to go around people and decide who is the kingmaker in this situation. And then that person gets to tell me what they are too big to do, or don't feel like doing. And then I receive it, do that work, and then it made to feel like it's not worth their time; but I should be so excited and happy that this is being done for me, and it was pretty disruptive.
 
So like the next day even, both the owner and like that chef, came to me and they were just kind of like clearly trying to like pacify me or be like, “oh my God, this is a hysterical woman who went crazy last night. And how do I make her feel like I'm still a good guy?” And I was like “Neither of you get it. Like I've blown up my life for the last two years, I have blown up my life. I'm making no money. I'm working my ass off to do this thing that I love and I'm not complaining and I'm not asking for anything, except I will not be insulted by you doing something behind everyone's back that is supposed to be for our benefit, and then making me feel lucky that I get the things that you don't want.”
 
Amanda: 1:01:22
Yeah, I'm sorry that happened to you. That was fucked up.
 
Michelle: 1:01:30
Yeah, I mean, but it's a “tale as old as time,” right? I mean, that's also why it's important to share, because, no, no person in a certain position gets that. When I say that, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And there are a ton of people out there who know even more deeply than I even experienced it, what that's about, because it's every fricking day of their life. 
 
But like these dudes, like I'm, like I mean, just, let's just stop at the level of “I pay you, I don't work for you, I am not your secretary, I am not, you know, like I'm not here to take what you want to give me.”
 
Amanda: 
That's right, 
 
Michelle:
But that is the way that the world works and, again, I don't think that that was certainly not the intention, right? So, of course, then everyone is like freaking out because they're like, “oh my God, what's going on? I'm just trying to do you a favor.” Well, like, just be quiet and listen - like this has been the theme of this whole episode. 
 
These are members. They pay you. Ask them what would be helpful, and maybe some people don't know. You got to start somewhere. But when you're getting feedback, like I mean, there was a period in time where I think we expected them to be like “well, why don't you guys do this?” And you know what? We may have. That wouldn't have been outside the realm of possibility. “God, you guys feel really strongly about this. This is something -  I know you're working a million hours and you probably don't have time for it. We don't have the bandwidth to do it, but this would be really great. If you can get together a group of people who want to do it, we'll give you X amount of resources or take so much off your rent.” There are ways to do this kind of thing.
 
[interlude]
 
Joan: 1:03:13
I just want to close a couple loops. I mean, Michelle, touching on one of the obvious things that we know about but listeners wouldn't, is that this is another “Foreshadowing with Joan Moment.”
 
Foreshadowing with Joan!
 
So, this foreshadowing, we're going to be focusing a lot more in the upcoming episodes about people like Kingmakers, and I think Michelle did bring up that concept [earlier]. So we're definitely talking about Kingmakers in the future. And I do want to say, like my reaction to that, as a person who stayed in the room, which is no shade on Michelle, like she had a very natural reaction and I, first of all - what would have happened if she stayed? I think maybe we're all better off about her having left. But for me, I stayed in the room and - I say this honestly - like I, no matter what I said, I stick with it. 
 
I actually did do a little bit of blacking out. I was so enraged and I'm, and I'm being a hundred percent serious. I just know that some of my statements, um, I included referred to just the optics on this. Of all the people who are potentially able to organize this, you're going with the one white dude blowhard chef?
 
And I remember after that meeting having, um, a gentleman who happens to be of color and has an amazing business, and I don't know if he's still in business, [he had] an amazing product. And he was someone who also didn't come from food, so he didn't like this hierarchy shit either. You know, he came from a, from a job that's very similar to what I had in, um, in compliance in terms of my background. And he was just like, “as soon as you said that part about the optics.” he was like “damn, that had to be stated,” you know? And so people got it, and it's just  - don't think this wasn't like just a very gendered only thing. It was just like who the hell like decided this by fiat, and started to trickle it down and thought we were just going to lap it up and be okay with it? Like I am, I am definitely not wired for that.
 
[interlude]
 
Michelle: 1:05:16
I mean just a very... It goes back to microcosms for me. It's just like I had never been in a situation where you can just see, you can just zoom out and see the world working like, based on these, these interactions in this, in this one space. And that makes me feel actually pretty fricking privileged that I hadn't run into it with my eyes that wide open before. This is after having been in the Peace Corps. This is after,  you know what I mean?
 
Um, I mean that obviously in a different way, but just in terms of the social justice, the identity pieces of this, […] especially business, I think, because you're, you're getting at the heart of it, which is money and power. And even when people are not acting with malicious intent, if that's what they're from, if that's what they know; that is the more trodden road, and so that is the road that is used to get all things done. It's just a fact.
 
Amanda: 1:06:15
It's when you talk to people who have privilege and they're waltzing down and doing their thing and they're just like “but but, but I don't have privilege. It just sort of it just kind of worked out.” And I can understand how you would think it would just work out, because it just “works out” and it's not working out for everybody else and they just, they just can't see it. And then, if they're, they're told to take a look, it turns into a “you hate me because I am.” 
 
And "yeah, yeah, yeah..." talk about shutting down the conversation.
 
[interlude]
 
Joan: 1:06:58
You know I was going to say, like, one thing that bridges this point in time for us, besides, like COVID, is moving into knowing that we need to move into a different space of our own. How do we rent it? And people will learn through the series of episodes why we would have preferred to, like, hindsight being whatever, own a space of our own. But we knew we had to leave, in part because customers also would always ask - one of our top questions was - "where's your shop?" We know we needed to do that. We know that we were not just languishing by beginning to like break even, which is not good for us in terms of the space that we were in. So that's…we just knew that financially we should be going up and up. We had our models and it was... We were really in that space for too long. As Michelle stated, we were languishing there. 
But I was thinking in preparation for this, I was thinking about my own business trajectory or my own career path, and at one point I was working for a research center that studied things that included bullying and there was a bullying issue within the team we had. So, between that and the fact that I did handle the books and I knew that we weren't getting new grants and I was just like “shit, I got to leave. Man, I got to leave. I have all these skills. I got to go” and I, and I went to a new office, at a different part of campus. It's a massive school, so there's so many different offices that handle grants and I'd be working at it, looking at the grants portion of things from a different perspective. And there were some red flags, if I think about it, in terms of the office I was going to. 
 
But I knew I needed to like leave the obviously “unhealthy for me” thing. And when I went to that new office on campus where I would be reviewing grants and giving feedback on how, "how's the progress report going", all that shit, and like bringing on the contracts part to it... My first week there in that office, if I had any trepidation... And like since I have such a fucked up like family background, I didn't realize this was a problem. This I'll tell you. We're not going to unpack that in this episode, or any of them probably, but in terms of having horrible boundaries, [I] went to this new office being like “oh this is something new, a little bit more money.” That first week, part of the culture I realized in that office I went to, was having lunch together. Which I'm not like really like a “lunch while I work” person. I just don't take breaks like that. But I'm like whatever, like "I'm the new kid and I need to get to know people and I'll just go ahead and bring something and we'll all meet." In that meeting, the Grand Poobah of our office, from his phone, was showing us a dick pic and people were just rolling with it. And it wasn't his penis - it shouldn't matter - it was a dick pic of a guy who had a tattoo of Pinocchio.

Right and like, and I didn't think, as I was leaving something that I knew directly to me was not helpful, it wasn't good for me, and my own growth... wasn't worth it. Went to this new place and because I was so, it was a place I wanted to go to, right? Just anywhere else but here, must be better. And I got to say, like that office had so many problems and I don't know if... I left before like the Me-Too movement happened. I do wonder if he was nixed out. I think in part he was shielded by certain people, like by having - a very diverse on the surface but not diverse in terms of thought - staff members who were his buddies, and he was also queer, and I feel like people... that [it] also protected him, even though he was like, a white dude. 
 
I'll have to say I just want to have folks understand that, like leaving that one research office - Research Center - to go to this new office, even though there were some signals, I ignored them and I just, you know, kept at it and then eventually, yes, I did leave. But when it came to leaving the commissary space and having our space built out, there were definitely some red flags and conversations I can recall with our recent landlords... but I knew that we had to get out of there [shared kitchen] for X, Y and Z reasons including people's expectation of getting our stuff. That includes us not just being tired of, like, sharing space with people.
 
Michelle: 1:11:09
Well, and growth, I mean we, even during COVID, with, you know, not nearly as much business as we could have predicted or would have predicted; we still were doing three times better than we were doing when we were in a commissary space where we couldn't be selling out of regularly.
 
Joan:
Working at, like, half our staff.
 
Michelle:
And it made us, you know, more efficient, as you would imagine. Because you could have people making stuff while you're selling to customers, versus having to make everything in advance and having customers come in. So I mean there's a model that we were always going towards but, you know, it takes time. We started looking for something in 2017. We finally found a place that would work in 2018. We signed a lease in 2019. It took another year to be ready and  - boom, it's COVID.
 
Amanda: 1:12:06
Many thanks to Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond, entrepreneurs and co-owners of Bottoms Up Bagels. If you're following us as the season is being released, we'll be returning in two weeks. Yep, we're taking a holiday break. Catching us at a later date? Well then, you're right in time for our next episode.
You've been listening to Proofing Stage. Our theme song, Bagels for the Kraken, was written and performed by Thorn Haze. We also want to cite Pixabay for the additional tracks. If you're looking for a transcript, show notes and additional credits, they can be found on our website, proofingstage.com. Want to join the conversation? Email us at proofingstagepod at gmail.com. You can also find us at Instagram at @proofingstage. I'm Amanda Schwarz and I'm off to settle my brain for a long winter's nap.