From Big Podcasts to Business Growth: What Most Podcasters Get Wrong

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What happens when you go from working on giant, really famous podcasts to helping podcasts that don't exist yet?
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That is what we're going to talk about this week.
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Stay tuned.
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Andrew, thanks for coming on.
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So you spent years in the trenches.
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You've built like some iconic podcasts with no formal media education, which is just awesome.
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You walked away from big shows and you launched Pursue Podcasting, which is your podcast production company.
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How does like, how like going from big shows to a smaller company, like grassroots bootstrapped company?
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Like how does the learn by doing?
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Let's just figure this out.
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I hate to build the airplane in the air analogy, but I'm going to use it here.
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How like, how does that happen?
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Yeah, I, I built the airplane while it was in the air, and then I decided to jump out that damn thing.
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Um, it, um, man, you know what?
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A lot of this, this whole journey from day one, and I mean, literally day one, like as a baby has just been trial and error.
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Like in high school, I tried it, I hated it didn't work out college.
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Same thing working eight to five.
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Like there's got to be something else out there other than this, right?
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Like there's just no way I was meant like I was put on this earth just to clock in and out and do the minimum and not get fired.
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Um, so I picked up a camera and that's when things really started to jump off.
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But to answer the original question, I essentially got a really crystal clear preview of what life looked like if I didn't have any big shows, I was literally left with essentially nothing overnight.
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And I can get into that if you want.
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But like, I basically had my biggest show completely wiped off of YouTube where the main host still had multiple businesses.
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The co-host was super established in the fitness industry and had his own company, like kind of on the rise.
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And then the guy that was spending one hundred percent of his time building out this podcast had nothing to show for it.
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So that's when I really decided to say, hey, you know what?
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I love what I do, but I seriously need to start building something of my own.
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And that's when we decided to jump out that airplane.
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That's amazing.
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And to me, it plays into this something that, like I preach about podcasting all the time because we've got this ability to kind of control our platform to a little bit.
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I mean, granted, Spotify, Apple, all of them could go away.
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All of them can dump us, but we still have these assets that we've built.
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Whereas I've heard of people getting like kicked off of any meta platform and they're screwed.
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Um, when TikTok went to shut down, like there was a lot of people that were freaking out because yeah, that was yeah.
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Wow.
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That being so, you go from this working with established people that are building something to working with, let's call this much less established people that are still trying to build something.
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Um, but you're going from adding on the fancy porch onto the house to now building things foundationally like, uh, did you have to shift in your mindset for that?
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Yeah.
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Well, I mean, right out the gate, the, the, the education or knowledge acquisition, like went through the roof because I was like working with one show and I'll say building vertically, right?
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Like, how do we get this one show to do better?
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But you have only so many opportunities to do that, right?
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Your record once a day, we'll just say once a day and you publish once a day if you're a maniac, which is what we did for a while, where we were publishing five full length episodes every day, which took years off my life because we record today and I'd get it all ready to publish tomorrow because we wanted to be fresh and we wanted things to be brand new.
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Don't recommend that for anybody, ever.
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And I genuinely feel like hard pass.
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Yeah, I probably lost a couple of years of life by doing that.
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But you know, again, you get thrown right in the fire and you figure your way out.
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Um, so again, like I said, right out the gate now I had multiple opportunities, right?
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So we went from, you know, potentially like two episodes a week to like damn near sixty a month, right?
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Because I had multiple clients at that point.
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But yeah, it was a lot of fun.
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And I genuinely do mean that like, of course, there's days where like, you know, you're texting, well, I'm texting my wife and I'm saying, hey, sorry, it's going to be a long night.
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Go ahead and go to bed.
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Because like, I just, I have to get like, the show must go on for, for me, I'm sitting back looking like, okay, we have like five shows we got to get ready.
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But for my one client, they're like, my one show has to go up tomorrow no matter what.
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Like my show is more important than anything.
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And they're that's absolutely true.
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Um, so again, the learning got like way, way, way faster, way bigger way more knowledge acquisition.
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But I had to try different things with each one, which again drove the education up higher because I couldn't be the one trick pony anymore.
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So like I, I built the name for myself inside, like the fitness industry.
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So fitness stuff worked inside that industry.
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Well, now I'm in like home service industries, like now I'm in the finance world and I'm like, okay, shoot, we can't just go on Instagram and find a trending topic and give our two cents about it.
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Not only did we not have the name now, but we also just like those things don't exist in those very niche markets.
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So I had to look at it from the like the different approach of like, we can't just like throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks.
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How about like, I start actually hitting this with some science and figuring out, okay, what's going to drive somebody to come back to this podcast?
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And then the bigger question, what the heck does that podcast actually want?
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Meaning what does that podcast host like?
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What's their true success metric?
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Because if it's views and downloads, like, well, Josh, like if that's all we want, like, hey, let's just turn that on and, you know, we'll pay YouTube, we'll pay whoever the heck hits us up on LinkedIn that swears that they're going to get us twenty thousand downloads a month.
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Like we can do that, but it's not going to do anything for your bottom line, right?
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So figuring out like, okay, this podcast, yeah, we want to grow, we want more views, downloads because we have sponsorships and stuff that we need to like pimp out those promo codes, right?
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That's how we make money here, which is an insanely awesome model, but it's going to be dead very soon.
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And then, yeah, and then for this other person, oh, maybe they just want to get more leads for their, you know, for their non-profit program or whatever they got going on.
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Okay.
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That's what we need to focus on.
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Not so much the downloads and the views, although I'm always going to try to get as much of that as possible.
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Right.
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Like for, for this conversation, I'm going to do whatever the heck I can to make sure as many people see it as possible.
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But what I would consider a win is if you and I today convinced one person to start their podcast, or if we got somebody interested in hiring you to produce their show.
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Like to me, that's a win.
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I'd rather have that than like a million downloads like, and I don't care what anybody says, because that's more important for the bottom line.
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And it also is just like likes and views are cool, but like I can't pay my mortgage with likes and views, unfortunately.
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I've tried.
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Yeah, no I've tried and it does not work.
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And plus I always like to.
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I always like to talk about bots from that aspect because I have seen the influx of bots.
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Um, and I, I say this in jest, but the way I figured out the bots was on my personal TikTok, which is essentially I'm an old man falling off of a dirt bike and there was a bunch of very young, very attractive women following me.
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And I realized, this is not these are bots.
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These are not they are fishing for my attention.
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These are bots.
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These are not because the last time I checked, as I was riding one of my motorcycle, my crappy old motorcycles down the road, women were not throwing themselves at me.
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I, it just it was not happening.
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Um, my wife was not worried about that happening either is by any stretch of the imagination.
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So I joke, is seeing the number of bots with that.
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That being said.
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Excellent segue into kind of like the growth phase of things here, because we both talk to a lot of people that they get frustrated by the stagnant download numbers or things of that nature.
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What like, and a lot of them, they start to chase algorithms.
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What, what do you tell them to say to start building the show rather than chasing the algorithm or that trending topic?
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Because that's what Garyvee told him to do.
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Oh man, I love Garyvee.
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But dude, I have so many issues correcting some of the things that he has said in the past, that one hundred percent that yes.
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Yeah dude.
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So I, I'll have to send it to you, but I just, I published a video not too long ago of basically garyvee submitting to YouTube.
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So in an, another interview, you know, like they set up these things where like, you can pay to go interview garyvee.
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and all of a sudden he's publishing like thirty new podcasts that all look the same from different people though.
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No hate dude, I love Garyvee.
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If he puts out another book, I'll be first in line to buy it because I've learned a lot from him.
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But in this video, he admits, like, yeah, I, I've tried to break YouTube and it has looked me in the face and said, no, that's not going to work here.
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He says, YouTube proper.
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Like, I can't just throw everything at it and expect it to work.
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But business owners, podcasters, content creators, they're like, no, Garyvee says, just document, don't create, just throw everything and something's going to work.
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Like, no, no, it's not not.
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It's absolutely not.
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Because if you chase all these rabbits, you're going to end up with negative, you know, like so, so the, the, the thing that I try my hardest and you already know this even before I'm going to explain this, but like, if somebody comes in and they are in the fitness niche, they are in the finance niche or they're in, you know, home service or whatever.
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Like we're not going to then talk about something in a completely different niche because it is trending.
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We're not going to chase those views because if we do, let's let's pretend.
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Okay.
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We talk about, I don't know, some something political here.
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That's a good one because that will get everybody riled up.
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And then the very next episode, you're, you're talking about how to get managers to have hard conversations with some, like a troubled employee.
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Who the heck is going to come back for that?
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No one.
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Nobody's coming back for that.
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So it goes back to that success metric.
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Okay.
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Like, is your goal to try to get trending topics and be like a, like a tabloid podcast, like, all right.
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Cool.
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Have fun with that.
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But good luck turning that into anything substantial for your business.
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And that's the other thing too, like I had to switch from working with like a content creator mindset or even a a podcast only mindset and starting to work with business owners.
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Because when I got into like the production side, I'm like, all right, Josh, here's what we're going to do.
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We're going to have the sickest thumbnails.
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You're gonna have the dopest intros, your thumb, your YouTube titles are going to be so solid, you're gonna have all the coolest tags and blah, blah, blah.
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I didn't really pay attention or I didn't really understand that a business owner is like, dude, I don't care.
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Like, is this going to make me more money?
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Is this going to get me more attention?
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When people come to my field, are they going to see me as the go to expert?
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Like, all right, okay, cool.
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That's what we're going to work on.
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Screw all this.
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Like, you know, the sales pitch of like thumbnails, like, no, nobody cares about that, right?
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At least like a, some, a business minded person's not going to genuinely care.
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They're just like, hey, I recorded my thing.
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Is it working?
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Yes or no?
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And then they don't like being sugarcoated either, right?
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So yeah, that's kind of a long, long winded answer.
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Uh, you know, for, for you there.
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No, I love it.
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And it's funny that you mentioned like the, the thumbnails and the stuff like that because so often we see people that are like, like we find they're either one way or the other.
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They have the absolute worst thumbnail on the planet.
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And we're like, hey, look, we can, we can help you with this.
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We're going to make this look like your, your, your, your ten year old niece didn't we're look, it currently looks like your ten year old niece did it.
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We're going to make it look better.
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Um, that's the one thing that we want to do.
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But then we get the other ones that get so in the weeds about it that are like, no, no, no, no move that just a couple of pixels over and we're like, no one like both people that are going to see this, that's not going to be the difference why they clicked on it.
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I get we want to make sure it's done at a very high level, and we want to make sure of that.
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Um, but in the same sense, we don't want to like, I don't want to spend six hours on a thumbnail because once again, the overall ROI on it, it's not the same ROI as it is for you as it is for MrBeast.
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Yeah.
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So it's different.
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Yeah.
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I do want to clarify.
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So like I, I do spend, I don't spend six hours, but I do spend a lot of the, the, the packaging.
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I don't like calling it packaging, but everybody can understand what I mean there.
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Right.
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Um, so I do pay attention to that.
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I pay attention to the title and the thumbnail, you know, again, for majority of the packaging production and stuff, but you're absolutely right.
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I'll drop a name.
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So somebody that I do know and communicate with Chris Williamson, he has one of the biggest shows ever, right?
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He I mean, he's on planes, right?
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He you go to um, I forgot where, but like he's on like big screens in the middle of a city.
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Like he's everywhere.
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He's huge.
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So maybe I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but he will show like a Google drive and he'll show me like fifty thumbnails and they all almost look identical.
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And he's like, ah.
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He's like, I told them to move this one over.
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I like this one.
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And so he's in literally the minutia of all of it.
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And I'm like, oh, shoot, I, I want to be very successful, but I don't know if I can spend weeks on thumbnails like that.
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But, but I think for him, right.
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But, but for him, it does make sense because now we're talking about multi-millions from podcasts, right?
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Episodes, right?
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We're not talking about, you know, downloads anymore.
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Right now we're talking about like generational wealth coming from this show.
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I, again, I don't know what the perfect answer is, but I do know that you can't have your niece doing it.
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And then you also can't have that be the thing that deters you from just putting out more content.
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I wholeheartedly agree, and it's funny, it's that point of diminishing returns, which changes depending on where you're at on that scale.
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If this is your second podcast and your mom is both of the downloads that you have, then sure, the thumbnail is not going to matter.
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Those those first ones aren't going to matter as much.
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The.
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But when you're at Chris's spot, who I, I listen to him a fair bit once again, that that minutia on that does matter to an extent.
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Um, that could be a, I mean, that going right or wrong could be a ten thousand dollars difference.
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Yeah.
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Going right or wrong on your twenty download podcast is going to be a seven or eight dollars difference, depending on like, if you're paying the person that's creating the thumbnail by the hour or not.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And that's, so that's the other thing too, though, is like, okay, at that level, like, just, just hire a world class thumbnail designer and call it a day and move on to the next thing.
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But yeah, when you're not at that level, it's the equivalent of like Getting so crazy into like the ingredients on like food where you're like, oh, no, it's, it's got a little bit of soy soybean oil.
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That's I'm out.
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That's it.
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I'm like, yeah, dude.
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But I think also, you still eating donuts every night.
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It's probably not the best move either.
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So like pick and choose your battles, right?
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Like have a little bit of soy oil if it's going to mean you're going to, you know, get in a little bit better shape, right?
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Sorry.
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That's just because again, I come from the fitness realm and I see this all day long where it's like, you're not totally getting bodybuilding shows because you had a little bit of soy.
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Okay.
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That's not the, that's not the big problem.
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The big problem.
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You know, the podcast still sucks, right?
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Right.
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That being said, and preventing podcasts from sucking.
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Yeah.
00:18:18.450 --> 00:18:21.582
Let's talk about like the business, the business impact of it.
00:18:21.582 --> 00:18:32.316
So I mean, you work with clients and I mean, you talk to them about how to attract new people, how to attract clients, the right people without being salesy.
00:18:32.316 --> 00:18:36.750
I like how do you like when you talk about the return on investment of a podcast?
00:18:36.750 --> 00:18:40.582
And it's something that we talk about with people all the time is what's the return on investment?
00:18:40.582 --> 00:18:47.349
Because this is not a spend the spend the upfront money on a podcast and instantly that money comes back two or three fold.
00:18:47.349 --> 00:18:49.082
This is a long burn.
00:18:49.082 --> 00:19:03.450
But like, how do you, how do you work with them on making sure that they see that there's a return on investment on that, and also making sure that they aren't looking at just the download numbers as the that, that like, I'm not Joe Rogan, I'm not Chris Williams.
00:19:03.450 --> 00:19:05.582
And like, I'm not there.
00:19:05.582 --> 00:19:06.782
No kidding.
00:19:06.782 --> 00:19:10.750
Um, how do you distract them from that or get them pointed in a better direction?
00:19:10.750 --> 00:19:12.149
I guess I should say.
00:19:12.149 --> 00:19:28.383
Yeah, I say the word that you almost just said and it's like, hey, let's not, let's not pay attention to these vanity metrics because again, a lot of people, they want to follow garyvee and they're like, hey, you know, let's, let's make like a hundred clips per episode and throw those up on social media because they get views.
00:19:28.383 --> 00:19:29.450
And I'm like, sick.
00:19:29.450 --> 00:19:39.682
No one's ever going to hire you from a thirty second video, but they might from a thirty minute video like that's now where we're like trying to get towards.
00:19:39.682 --> 00:19:58.482
So the, I guess the easiest way for somebody to understand this concept about the know, like, and trust factor is, okay, I don't know how long we've been running for, but let's say ten minutes ago, if you've been listening this whole time, you had no clue who I was, what I was about, what my voice sounded like, what I looked like.
00:19:58.482 --> 00:20:02.782
If you're watching on video now, you know what I kind of find funny.
00:20:02.782 --> 00:20:05.082
Now you know what my voice sounds like.
00:20:05.082 --> 00:20:13.549
Now you know that like, hey, on a a really big production, I might show up in a black hoodie and a black hat because I like to keep things a little bit more chill.
00:20:13.549 --> 00:20:14.450
Plus, I love hip hop.
00:20:14.450 --> 00:20:25.549
So like it's always going to kind of make its way into whatever I do, although I'm trying to get better, you know, at least shave today, but you now know a little bit more about me.
00:20:25.549 --> 00:20:32.149
So now let's take somebody that you don't know, but you're looking for a podcast producer right now.
00:20:32.149 --> 00:20:34.750
Who do you want to have a conversation with more?
00:20:34.750 --> 00:20:43.115
Somebody that has, we'll just say the exact same numbers that you've never spoken to, that you've never heard from, that you have no clue what they're all about.
00:20:43.115 --> 00:20:44.515
That person or me.
00:20:44.515 --> 00:20:47.250
And that sounded extremely arrogant didn't mean for that to happen.
00:20:47.250 --> 00:20:49.282
No, no, no, it's not because it is.
00:20:49.282 --> 00:20:52.215
It's you've built that relationship, right?
00:20:52.215 --> 00:21:09.215
So that's what I try to that message I try to convey to other podcasters is like, hey, dude, like, again, like what I say on my show, if this video gets one hundred views, I'm gonna celebrate like nobody's business because honestly, like my stuff shouldn't even hit that much, right?
00:21:09.215 --> 00:21:21.482
But if I can get somebody to just feel a little bit closer to me to where when they do decide to, you know, pull that lever of a podcast or like, hey, like we're actually getting some traction, but like, we're not sure what to do next.
00:21:21.482 --> 00:21:23.950
Maybe I'll get a consult call with Andrew.
00:21:23.950 --> 00:21:27.049
If that's what it can do, then that's amazing.
00:21:27.049 --> 00:21:29.715
But again, it goes back to that success metric.
00:21:29.715 --> 00:21:32.149
What would you consider a successful podcast?
00:21:32.149 --> 00:21:33.849
Because I get asked that a lot too.
00:21:33.849 --> 00:21:36.515
Like when does this thing become a success?
00:21:36.515 --> 00:21:37.316
I don't know, man.
00:21:37.316 --> 00:21:39.149
It's different for everybody.
00:21:39.149 --> 00:21:47.816
And I will give a very, very unique way that a podcast became successful.
00:21:47.816 --> 00:21:52.883
Uh, we did a three part series with an Hvac sales legend.
00:21:52.883 --> 00:21:55.282
Like this dude dropped so much knowledge.
00:21:55.282 --> 00:22:01.950
Um, for me as somebody that is not in that industry, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to implement all of this.
00:22:01.950 --> 00:22:03.615
It was really, really good.
00:22:03.615 --> 00:22:13.682
So the, the company that runs the podcast said, hey, we're actually not just going to like turn this into or we're not just going to be thankful for this really cool podcast.
00:22:13.682 --> 00:22:20.615
We're going to turn this into an entire training like regimen or whatever you want to call it, like a whole protocol.
00:22:20.615 --> 00:22:26.482
And so they took, they took this three part series episode and made like a week's worth of training.
00:22:26.482 --> 00:22:29.649
They implemented everything that they learned from this podcast.
00:22:29.649 --> 00:22:38.515
They measured their numbers from November of twenty twenty four and like, whatever, they just started tracking them back then.
00:22:38.515 --> 00:22:46.549
And then they started in November twenty twenty five in fifty days, utilizing everything that they learned from that podcast series.
00:22:46.549 --> 00:22:50.049
They generated over a million dollars in revenue.
00:22:50.049 --> 00:22:52.515
Now, again, that is very unique.
00:22:52.515 --> 00:22:59.215
That is not something by saying, oh, this podcast generated a million dollars from promo codes or from downloads or whatever.
00:22:59.215 --> 00:23:01.215
Like, no, that's not it.
00:23:01.215 --> 00:23:08.049
But would you say that this company would call their podcast a success?
00:23:08.049 --> 00:23:09.282
Yeah, I think they would.
00:23:09.282 --> 00:23:09.549
Right?
00:23:09.549 --> 00:23:10.149
Yeah.
00:23:10.149 --> 00:23:19.015
Because they implemented what they learned from their own podcast into their own business and generated over a million dollars.
00:23:19.015 --> 00:23:28.250
And what was cool is, um, so an Hvac, uh, if you have good weather, nobody's calling the company to fix anything, right?
00:23:28.250 --> 00:23:37.149
So they actually had less calls and they were down ten percent from where they were the year prior, implemented all this new training or whatever you want to call it.
00:23:37.149 --> 00:23:39.250
And now they like, like, oh my God, this is amazing.
00:23:39.250 --> 00:23:40.682
We're going to just keep doing that.
00:23:40.682 --> 00:23:45.715
So again, their success metric was literally just, hey, we want to educate our team members.
00:23:45.715 --> 00:23:47.750
They don't care about going viral.
00:23:47.750 --> 00:23:51.316
They don't care about, uh, you know, any of it.
00:23:51.316 --> 00:23:55.250
They just like, hey, we just want to meet our team members where they are.
00:23:55.250 --> 00:23:58.215
And we just happen to know that they listen to podcasts.
00:23:58.215 --> 00:24:06.250
So instead of giving them like another training that they're going to ignore or a PDF download that they're never going to, they're never going to look at.
00:24:06.250 --> 00:24:11.515
How about instead we just, hey, if you're in a truck, throw on this podcast because we think it's going to help.
00:24:11.515 --> 00:24:14.750
And boom, it's like, oh my gosh, that was huge.
00:24:14.750 --> 00:24:17.682
So yeah, they would consider that a success.
00:24:17.682 --> 00:24:28.682
Uh, it's so funny because we even work, we've worked with a couple of CEOs that were, they're doing internal podcasts and it's just I'm like, I've, I've made an example with this one CEO.
00:24:28.682 --> 00:24:32.482
I introduced him to one of his employees and the employee had no idea who he was.
00:24:33.715 --> 00:24:36.282
And he looked at me like just ashamed afterwards.
00:24:36.282 --> 00:24:41.349
And I said, yeah, this guy could recognize your voice if he'd ever heard it before.
00:24:41.349 --> 00:24:46.082
And so we've worked on, say, same idea once again, it's a short podcast.
00:24:46.082 --> 00:24:47.082
It doesn't take much.
00:24:47.082 --> 00:24:52.682
And it doesn't necessarily say, hey, look, this is going out and going to get us a big sponsorship deal.
00:24:52.682 --> 00:25:02.082
But if it gets half a percent out of each and every single one of your employees, right, well, that's a pretty good deal.
00:25:02.082 --> 00:25:03.282
Um, yeah.
00:25:03.282 --> 00:25:08.950
Yeah, the ROI on that is going to be huge.
00:25:08.950 --> 00:25:11.950
Um, with that, you've worked with some interesting people.
00:25:11.950 --> 00:25:20.849
If I, if my notes are correct, like Stone Cold Steve Austin, um, like, and you mentioned Chris and people like that.
00:25:20.849 --> 00:25:26.115
This is the question that I've been so like, so excited to ask you about this.
00:25:26.115 --> 00:25:47.115
Is there a behind the scenes trait or habit that you see with between some of these, like high level people that when the mics are off or the mics are on that there's this one thing that there's this thread in between them that someone could use in their podcasting.
00:25:47.115 --> 00:25:55.215
I don't want to say their podcast program, their podcast presentation, their podcast antics, like however you want to word it.
00:25:55.215 --> 00:25:59.450
Yeah, man, that is actually a really tough question to answer.
00:25:59.450 --> 00:26:04.950
Um, we'll exclude Chris Williamson out of it because again, like I said, he's like really deep into everything.
00:26:04.950 --> 00:26:05.482
Yes.
00:26:05.482 --> 00:26:07.649
Um, but someone like Stone cold.
00:26:07.649 --> 00:26:12.383
So I was showing him what a Zoom H4 recorder was like.
00:26:12.383 --> 00:26:15.282
He was like, what the heck is that thing?
00:26:15.282 --> 00:26:17.682
And I'm like, put the microphones and you hit record.
00:26:17.682 --> 00:26:18.182
Oh, okay.
00:26:18.182 --> 00:26:18.982
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:18.982 --> 00:26:21.415
Um, knobs and buttons.
00:26:21.415 --> 00:26:21.883
Yeah.
00:26:21.883 --> 00:26:23.115
He's like, whatever, dude.
00:26:23.115 --> 00:26:28.549
I just, you know, I, whenever I sit down and somebody else pushes the buttons for me, um, my buddy Mark Bell.
00:26:28.549 --> 00:26:36.482
So he's the one that I basically, I started Mark Bell's power project with and, you know, grew that to being the monster that it is.
00:26:36.482 --> 00:26:38.182
He doesn't know how to use a laptop.
00:26:41.082 --> 00:26:51.582
He walks in and I made the studio so he can just walk in and then just speak and then walk out and then just he doesn't know what happens after that.
00:26:51.582 --> 00:26:53.750
He doesn't even know if any of them ever get published.
00:26:53.750 --> 00:27:05.215
Um, so what, what I do see with the Uber successful people, um, Bedros um, you know, uh, yeah, stone cold.
00:27:05.215 --> 00:27:08.182
I'm kind of drawing a blank on other people here.
00:27:08.182 --> 00:27:13.383
They, they are not the ones that are also executing everything.
00:27:13.383 --> 00:27:16.649
Their genius comes from what they currently do.
00:27:16.649 --> 00:27:21.482
It's not from like, hounding their thumbnail designer.
00:27:21.482 --> 00:27:21.816
Right?
00:27:21.816 --> 00:27:22.383
Like.
00:27:24.383 --> 00:27:31.482
They will bring someone in that knows what the heck they're doing and then say, hey, you're going to do it better than I ever will.
00:27:31.482 --> 00:27:41.982
So I'm not even going to bug you about it because I've seen the opposite where somebody will, um, you know, kind of be the person that like, like, okay, cool, this episode's done.
00:27:41.982 --> 00:27:42.250
All right.
00:27:42.250 --> 00:27:44.782
It doesn't get published for another two weeks.
00:27:44.782 --> 00:27:48.415
So I'm going to give you some feedback that needs to be changed.
00:27:48.415 --> 00:27:49.316
Same person.
00:27:49.316 --> 00:27:50.383
Oh, it goes up tomorrow.
00:27:50.383 --> 00:27:51.115
Hey, this is really good.
00:27:51.115 --> 00:27:52.115
Let's publish it.
00:27:52.115 --> 00:27:56.682
Like they just want their two cents thrown in just to be thrown in.
00:27:56.682 --> 00:28:08.816
The ones that just let other people cook and just do their thing happened to be a little bit more successful than the ones that are trying to, like, manipulate and give their two cents every single step of the way.
00:28:08.816 --> 00:28:21.282
Um, and again, I think those are the, again, at the, like the top where they have that ability to sort of delegate and, um, not, not that cost is ever like a non like non-factor, right?
00:28:21.282 --> 00:28:23.883
But they have the resources to hire out.
00:28:23.883 --> 00:28:30.982
So I think the more that they are able to just say like, hey, like you're going to do better than me and, you know, go for it.
00:28:30.982 --> 00:28:43.982
Those ones seem to be a lot more successful, I guess for someone like me, if I was to like kind of try to drop it down a little bit, it's sort of being okay with like eighty percent of what I would do, right?
00:28:43.982 --> 00:28:51.750
So like when I hire somebody on my team or your, your audio engineer, okay, one hundred percent is what I would do.
00:28:51.750 --> 00:28:53.849
Can you get me eighty, eighty five percent?
00:28:53.849 --> 00:28:58.182
Like, ah, like, I really don't like that plosive, but this is not worth it.
00:28:58.182 --> 00:28:59.615
I'll let you like you're good.
00:28:59.615 --> 00:29:00.883
Thank you so much for that edit.
00:29:00.883 --> 00:29:02.316
You're the freaking best at it.
00:29:02.316 --> 00:29:12.015
So being able to let go of some of those slightly imperfections just to keep moving forward, that's kind of always been my thing too, is like, let's not move backwards.
00:29:12.015 --> 00:29:13.582
Just always move forward.
00:29:13.582 --> 00:29:21.015
That thumbnail kind of sucked, but hey, the next one, let's just do better because, okay, Monday's episode kind of flopped.
00:29:21.015 --> 00:29:24.349
Like, well, we got one coming out tomorrow, like Wednesday.
00:29:24.349 --> 00:29:25.649
Like, just forget about it.
00:29:25.649 --> 00:29:27.149
Let's just keep moving forward.
00:29:27.149 --> 00:29:29.649
And then if something catches, we can go back.
00:29:29.649 --> 00:29:37.782
But, um, long winded way of answering it, I would just say they let experts do what, you know, what they're good at.
00:29:37.782 --> 00:29:45.782
And they try not to just like manipulate every tiny little aspect of every single second of every episode.
00:29:45.782 --> 00:29:51.515
And they just focus on their craft and they focus on delivering their message and they just keep moving forward.
00:29:51.515 --> 00:30:07.615
I truly love that answer because it's something that we talk about all the time is I, in fact, I've presented to companies on this saying, um, we, we were, we were looking at, uh, working as a, basically a fractional marketing company for someone.
00:30:07.615 --> 00:30:09.149
And I said, great.
00:30:09.149 --> 00:30:11.816
I said, we've got people in place to do all these jobs.
00:30:11.816 --> 00:30:17.715
Do you want to hire one generalist or would you rather hire eight specialists?
00:30:17.715 --> 00:30:22.649
And they kind of looked at me and they're like, um, okay, so it changes that equation.
00:30:22.649 --> 00:30:28.982
And I love how you put that because yeah, it's letting people do their thing that, that they're an expert in.
00:30:28.982 --> 00:30:43.250
Um, the, the next one, as we start to kind of close out here, the, the future for like, I, I ask a lot of people, like, what do they see for future plans or what do they see for the future of podcasting?
00:30:43.250 --> 00:30:51.649
I like in looking at your history and everything like that, I want to go a different direction because you truly love the craft.
00:30:51.649 --> 00:30:54.849
Um, you, you like the conversations.
00:30:54.849 --> 00:31:03.316
You, you like just the, the, the aura of podcasting and what it can do and like the tool that it is.
00:31:03.316 --> 00:31:05.015
Like, what do you like?
00:31:05.015 --> 00:31:14.715
How are you evolving to make sure that you stay in that we've talked, I mean, we briefly ahead of time talked about some AI tools that we both use and share and things of that nature.
00:31:14.715 --> 00:31:23.450
As I as AI does more things, creeps into more areas like what are you doing to stay connected and loving the craft.
00:31:23.450 --> 00:31:24.316
Yeah.
00:31:24.316 --> 00:31:24.649
Oh dude.
00:31:24.649 --> 00:31:28.383
I do genuinely love podcasting when I discovered them.
00:31:28.383 --> 00:31:32.615
I don't even know what year, but like, it was actually, uh, the Sklar brothers.
00:31:32.615 --> 00:31:34.515
I don't know if you remember them.
00:31:34.515 --> 00:31:35.049
They.
00:31:35.049 --> 00:31:35.582
Yeah, dude.
00:31:35.582 --> 00:31:49.649
So Earwolf and all those comedians back in the day, like when I discovered like that, there were like these, like, I'll say factions almost, but they were like these, you know, uh, publishing houses or whatever you want to call them for, for podcasts.
00:31:49.649 --> 00:31:52.950
I was like, oh my God, this is the coolest thing I've ever like, this is amazing.
00:31:52.950 --> 00:31:56.383
So like, I basically turned on a podcast one day and haven't turned them off since.
00:31:56.383 --> 00:31:59.349
So I love the art, the craft, all of it.
00:31:59.349 --> 00:32:00.182
It is amazing.
00:32:00.182 --> 00:32:12.615
I love having the free flowing conversations, although if you want to have that and then also question why it's not converting for your business, like you can't have the two like, right?
00:32:12.615 --> 00:32:20.515
Like if, if you want to help a certain demographic of people talk to that person, not even the people talk to that one person.
00:32:20.515 --> 00:32:20.915
Yep.
00:32:20.915 --> 00:32:23.415
Um, sorry to get sidetracked, but no, you're good.
00:32:23.415 --> 00:32:27.982
For for me, with the AI stuff like you and I just talked about, like, I love it.
00:32:27.982 --> 00:32:29.316
I use it every day.
00:32:29.316 --> 00:32:31.450
I try to get my daughter to use it.
00:32:31.450 --> 00:32:33.582
She's about to graduate high school.
00:32:33.582 --> 00:32:38.816
And this conversation has like, it started with like, hey, like, how often are you using AI?
00:32:38.816 --> 00:32:40.049
And she's like, what is AI?
00:32:40.049 --> 00:32:41.649
I'm like, you're seventeen years old.
00:32:41.649 --> 00:32:49.750
And like, if I was your age in high school, I would never be doing my homework and I'd be charging my friends to do their homework because I would never touch it.
00:32:49.750 --> 00:32:52.383
But side tangent there.
00:32:52.383 --> 00:32:53.182
Same.
00:32:54.349 --> 00:32:56.049
Yeah, I love AI too.
00:32:56.049 --> 00:33:11.115
I think it's, I know it gets a lot of hate for all the environmental stuff, but my thing that where I plan or where I think all of this is going to evolve with the introduction of AI and AI getting a lot easier for everybody to use.
00:33:11.115 --> 00:33:16.915
One is what we're doing right now, having a real conversation, but then doing that in person.
00:33:16.915 --> 00:33:18.950
Um, I love virtual podcasting.
00:33:18.950 --> 00:33:36.450
I'm going to do that for the rest of my life, but I'm also going to then try my hardest to get up on stages and meet people and talk face to face, shake hands, um, do all the stuff that introverted Andrew does not love to do because I love hanging out in my studio.
00:33:36.450 --> 00:33:37.582
I'm like a little hermit crab.
00:33:37.582 --> 00:33:39.649
I don't come out very often.
00:33:39.649 --> 00:33:43.383
Um, I enjoy doing what I love to do, right?
00:33:43.383 --> 00:33:46.415
Like this is, this is incredible that you're in Ohio.
00:33:46.415 --> 00:33:48.750
I'm in Sacramento, California.
00:33:48.750 --> 00:33:56.750
Like we get to hang out today, but how much cooler would it be if we were both going to something where we get to hang out in person?
00:33:56.750 --> 00:34:07.750
Or you and I both hold a keynote, you know, on stage together, answering questions, that sort of thing, because it's a skill to be able to hold a conversation.
00:34:07.750 --> 00:34:17.215
Having the attention span to hang out with somebody for an hour is unfortunately a skill these days.
00:34:19.250 --> 00:34:25.182
With the with the rise of short form content, which I freaking hate and I wish it would go away.
00:34:25.182 --> 00:34:28.383
YouTube shorts is the worst thing that's ever happened to humanity.
00:34:28.383 --> 00:34:45.950
Um, I would say developing the skill to be able to communicate in person is going to be the thing that separates you from the rest of the world, which is great because a lot of business owners and CEOs and those, those types, they already have that they just don't have the ability to do what we're doing right now.
00:34:45.950 --> 00:34:58.182
But if I can get good at that, because what I would hate is if somebody listens to this, they talk to me in person and like, I just, I'm, I'm awkward.
00:34:58.182 --> 00:35:00.550
I can't communicate very well.
00:35:00.550 --> 00:35:11.550
You know, I'm like, like, I would never want that person to walk away from a conversation to say, wow, he was, he was really different in person, you know, on camera.
00:35:11.550 --> 00:35:18.350
He's so active, he's so lively, but in person, he was kind of like a bag of marbles, like, I don't want that.
00:35:18.350 --> 00:35:29.550
So for me, where I think this is going to evolve into is, you know, you already see companies saying like, hey, look at our behind the scenes, we don't use AI because now that's like a promotional piece.
00:35:29.550 --> 00:35:36.083
So I think being able to prove, you know, what the hell you're talking about without the use of AI is going to go a long way.
00:35:36.083 --> 00:35:46.350
So that's where I'm kind of like hedging my bets is not anti AI, but just having the ability to do both and do it in person.
00:35:46.350 --> 00:35:48.983
So that's kind of where like I'm hoping things get to.
00:35:48.983 --> 00:35:54.383
I, I love it and I feel the same way because yes, this is this one on one conversation.
00:35:54.383 --> 00:36:01.850
And I agree, like the two of us sitting in one of our studios would be amazing because we would just first off, it would be a seven and a half hour podcast.
00:36:01.850 --> 00:36:02.483
Yeah.
00:36:05.682 --> 00:36:07.182
But yeah, no second off.
00:36:07.182 --> 00:36:12.316
I mean, the fact that technology has done this so we can have a good conversation.
00:36:12.316 --> 00:36:19.516
And the fact that, I mean, this has been a great conversation And opposite ends of the country, for all intents and purposes.
00:36:19.516 --> 00:36:23.050
But we're able to we're able to connect and do this.
00:36:23.050 --> 00:36:38.115
Um, that being said, last question, I always like to ask if you can give one piece of advice to a business owner or a marketer or just anyone that's involved in like our, like their podcast has to, has to have an ROI.
00:36:38.115 --> 00:36:40.316
What's that one piece of advice you're going to give them?
00:36:41.615 --> 00:36:44.216
Focus on the podcast.
00:36:44.216 --> 00:36:54.950
A lot of people will love to publish pieces of content and then say, oh my gosh, look at all the cool stuff we can do with this piece of content.
00:36:54.950 --> 00:36:57.216
We're going to publish this on social media.
00:36:57.216 --> 00:37:01.083
We're going to post this on Instagram, TikTok, and all these other things.
00:37:01.083 --> 00:37:02.083
Like, okay, cool.
00:37:02.083 --> 00:37:07.316
Do that if you want to boost up your social media.
00:37:07.316 --> 00:37:13.550
If you want to boost your business and your podcast, focus on your podcast.
00:37:13.550 --> 00:37:15.950
As stupid as that sounds.
00:37:15.950 --> 00:37:18.850
what a lot of people do is they get distracted.
00:37:18.850 --> 00:37:32.216
They want to turn their podcast into a library of assets instead of treating their podcast as their number one marketing asset, because that's exactly what it is.
00:37:32.216 --> 00:37:38.216
So if you want to learn how to do that more, hit up Josh or me and we'll tell you how to do that.
00:37:38.216 --> 00:37:40.916
I was just about to say that this has been awesome.
00:37:40.916 --> 00:37:43.550
Like, where can people find you if they want to talk to you?
00:37:43.550 --> 00:37:45.083
Where can people find you?
00:37:45.083 --> 00:37:45.516
Yeah.
00:37:45.516 --> 00:37:54.216
So, uh, at pursue podcasting dot com is probably like the cleanest, easiest way if you are on social, the ugly way.
00:37:54.216 --> 00:37:59.716
Social media, uh, at I am Andrew Z on everything.
00:37:59.716 --> 00:38:01.216
I just started LinkedIn.
00:38:01.216 --> 00:38:05.516
Um, I, I don't know what the heck I'm doing there, but I'm on there as well.
00:38:05.516 --> 00:38:06.383
Andrew Zaragoza.
00:38:06.383 --> 00:38:07.483
I don't you found me.
00:38:07.483 --> 00:38:13.316
I don't know how to find anybody, but, um, uh, I'm trying to get better.
00:38:13.316 --> 00:38:27.083
I'm trying to put on my big boy pants, you know, and, um, be better at communicating with the people that I'm going to say need my help, but nobody needs my help.
00:38:27.083 --> 00:38:30.450
But like, I can make a big impact for a lot of business owners.
00:38:30.450 --> 00:38:35.283
And so I'm trying to be more present for them in places that they already are.
00:38:35.283 --> 00:38:39.650
So yeah, I would say, um, I mean, shoot, Andrew at pursue podcasting dot com.
00:38:39.650 --> 00:38:42.216
Um, is the, the, uh, the email address.
00:38:42.216 --> 00:38:47.016
So you can hit me up there anytime you want and then yeah, social media and all that fun stuff.
00:38:47.016 --> 00:38:47.682
Wonderful.
00:38:47.682 --> 00:38:48.250
Andrew.
00:38:48.250 --> 00:38:49.516
This has been awesome.
00:38:49.516 --> 00:38:50.516
Thank you very much.
00:38:50.516 --> 00:38:52.150
I appreciate the time.
00:38:52.150 --> 00:38:55.316
Um, for everyone else out there, uh, I'm going to take a couple of minutes.
00:38:55.316 --> 00:39:00.416
I've got, I did take notes again and I'm going to summarize this and I will be right back.
00:39:00.416 --> 00:39:01.316
Stay tuned.
00:39:05.950 --> 00:39:07.350
Andrew was super interesting to me.
00:39:07.350 --> 00:39:10.150
And when I, when we connected, we actually connected via Podmatch.
00:39:10.150 --> 00:39:11.750
And then obviously LinkedIn.
00:39:11.750 --> 00:39:17.682
And he was super interesting to me up front because of his background.
00:39:17.682 --> 00:39:23.883
I mean, he really started out in big podcasts and then he came to smaller podcasts.
00:39:23.883 --> 00:39:26.050
And what's so interesting about that?
00:39:26.050 --> 00:39:31.150
And he, I mean, he never directly said it, but he very much alluded to it.
00:39:31.150 --> 00:39:36.816
It is a very, very different game.
00:39:36.816 --> 00:39:55.950
Um, the fact that he talked about like sponsorship deals and things of that nature on these bigger podcasts, and this has to go out at this time because of this and this, we've got this commitment to this thing and that it is a very different game because once again, and this is what I mean, I'm going to go back to the episode that Dave Jackson talked about, knowing your why.
00:39:55.950 --> 00:39:58.115
Why are you doing this?
00:39:59.115 --> 00:40:03.850
If you don't have the why, then you are going to try and be like the big podcasters.
00:40:03.850 --> 00:40:07.250
And if you've got thirty downloads per episode, guess what?
00:40:07.250 --> 00:40:12.115
The things that work for the big podcasters are not going to work for you.
00:40:12.115 --> 00:40:14.350
It's just not going to work.
00:40:14.350 --> 00:40:15.650
That's why it was.
00:40:15.650 --> 00:40:27.682
He had to make that pivot to adjust for doing things as like for smaller podcasters to build them from the ground up and to realize that they had a very different why.
00:40:27.682 --> 00:40:29.450
It wasn't about the sponsorship deal.
00:40:29.450 --> 00:40:37.850
It was about trying to get four more people in their doors per week or per month, or even per year in some cases.
00:40:37.850 --> 00:40:40.883
To me, that is like the biggest shift.
00:40:40.883 --> 00:40:48.350
And the problem is, is when you listen to some of these big quote unquote influencers, they're giving you big influencer advice.
00:40:49.516 --> 00:40:51.216
I'll make an example out of this here.
00:40:51.216 --> 00:40:56.450
And this is why taking the big advice isn't always that great.
00:40:56.450 --> 00:41:00.682
I lift weights, as you can see though, I'm a pretty average sized guy.
00:41:00.682 --> 00:41:03.550
I'm also forty seven years old.
00:41:03.550 --> 00:41:14.016
If I took lifting advice from Mr. Olympia, how do you think that's going to go for me if I tried to lift their weights if I tried.
00:41:14.016 --> 00:41:16.483
It's not going to go well.
00:41:16.483 --> 00:41:16.816
I'm.
00:41:16.816 --> 00:41:20.516
I'm going to get hurt and I'm going to wonder, like, why am I doing this?
00:41:20.516 --> 00:41:22.516
Because once again, it's a different why.
00:41:22.516 --> 00:41:24.250
I'm not trying to be Mr.
00:41:22.516 --> 00:41:24.250
Olympia.
00:41:24.250 --> 00:41:28.816
I'm trying to like be able to get up off the floor when I'm sixty years old.
00:41:28.816 --> 00:41:29.682
There's that.
00:41:29.682 --> 00:41:38.350
So once again, it's making sure we're using the correct why to guide our podcast in the right direction.
00:41:38.350 --> 00:41:46.516
Your why, and therefore the things that you are going to do is going to be very, very different than someone like Gary Vee.
00:41:46.516 --> 00:41:48.450
Keep that in mind.
00:41:48.450 --> 00:41:58.750
The other thing that I want to look at too, is we talk all the time about like the, the, the Instagram and the, the Facebook and the, the reels, putting those things out like on TikTok.
00:41:58.750 --> 00:42:04.816
And that once again, with podcasting, you're building on your own platform essentially there.
00:42:04.816 --> 00:42:11.216
You're building your people with the clips in that you're building on someone else's platform.
00:42:11.216 --> 00:42:12.682
They control it.
00:42:12.682 --> 00:42:15.983
Someone else can just come along and push a button.
00:42:15.983 --> 00:42:20.950
And you never existed, at least according to them.
00:42:21.983 --> 00:42:23.583
To me, that's dangerous.
00:42:23.583 --> 00:42:25.350
Now, why do we still put the content there?
00:42:25.350 --> 00:42:27.416
Because it's visible there.
00:42:27.416 --> 00:42:28.983
Someone's going to search it there.
00:42:28.983 --> 00:42:35.250
And that's why we like, love to put out that constant contact there, that constant content there.
00:42:35.250 --> 00:42:41.650
That way when someone looks for something, you've got fresh stuff coming out, which is awesome.
00:42:41.650 --> 00:42:49.550
But just realize that if you focus on building that, that can be taken away like that.
00:42:49.550 --> 00:42:51.650
And that's something that you should be concerned about.
00:42:51.650 --> 00:42:58.115
Because let's face it, social media doesn't work the way it did seven, ten, fifteen years ago.
00:42:58.115 --> 00:43:01.083
It is a very, very different game now.
00:43:01.083 --> 00:43:03.816
So once again, use social media.
00:43:03.816 --> 00:43:06.383
Don't let it use you.
00:43:06.383 --> 00:43:13.016
You once again, it's not the same game We've got some more great guests to come.
00:43:13.016 --> 00:43:25.682
So do me a favor, make sure you subscribe if you think this conversation would be helpful to another podcast, or if there's someone that you know that's wanting to start a podcast, by all means, we would love to hear from you.
00:43:25.682 --> 00:43:27.450
Paddle sniper productions dot com.
00:43:27.450 --> 00:43:29.350
There's a contact form there.
00:43:29.350 --> 00:43:33.816
You can also sign up for a fifteen minute no pitch podcast consult where guess what?
00:43:33.816 --> 00:43:38.550
We will look at your podcast and give you good suggestions on how you can move things forward.
00:43:39.783 --> 00:43:41.816
No pitch, nothing involved like that.
00:43:41.816 --> 00:43:42.983
We just want to help.
00:43:44.250 --> 00:43:46.483
I am going to ask you to do one thing, though.
00:43:46.483 --> 00:43:47.283
Do me a favor.
00:43:47.283 --> 00:43:51.083
Take care of yourself if you can take care of someone else.
00:43:51.083 --> 00:43:54.783
Also, I will see you very, very soon.