speaker-0: Welcome to Life by Design. I'm your host, Robin, and I am thrilled to welcome you to this space for real conversations about how we live, how we show up day in and day out. Because the quality of our life is shaped by our habits. What we do in ordinary time allows us to be extraordinary. We can unpack what it takes to truly live well and be well in real life. Welcome to Life by Design. And I'm just so excited that you're here. Welcome back to Life by Design. Today is a treat. I had the chance to connect with Amanda Gore. Now she is a professional speaker, she is an author, she is just joy. Like in her 70s, like she has so much insight to offer around things around communication and leadership and stress. I had so much fun. Connecting with Amanda. We have the episode here for you now. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. So enjoy just getting a little dose from an Australian powerhouse who gives us a really great opportunity to listen to the stories we tell ourselves. Amanda, welcome to this episode of Life by Design. I'm so excited to have you here today.
speaker-1: ⁓ well, the we were chatting beforehand and I think I just found a new bestie.
speaker-0: ⁓ I love it. Well, thank you so much. And Amanda, you have, as I said to you when I first jumped on this call, your work is so refreshing. Like when I took a deep dive and was looking at your materials and seeing you on stage, it just felt like this breath of fresh air. Can you let our listeners know all about the good work that you're doing, especially around the work that you do around joy, which I think the world needs a big dose of right now.
speaker-1: That's so kind of you. Thank you very much. I would like to say that I have mastered the art of joy and I'm just, you know, just a goddess of joy, really. ⁓ but ⁓ the only reason I write on joy, and I've been speaking about joy and how it works in the workplace for I I think it's 20 years now, is because I woke up one morning and ⁓ was told new. something that I had to write a book on joy. And I couldn't do it. I was one of the most joyless people I knew. Obviously that's why I had to write the book. and seriously I was in a miserable marriage, ⁓ divorced now, but we're best friends. So he's a lovely bloke, but I was miserable. I wasn't well. I d ⁓ I tried to write the book. I'd never had trouble writing books before, but I could not write this book. One morning I woke up And my it's soon after my mum had died, actually. And I had this, I don't know, dream, vision thing. And my mum said to me, ⁓ go downstairs and meditate, and I'm putting together a writing committee and we'll download the information. Now I have to tell you, I'm not I was not in any way, shape, or form that kind of person back then. Yeah. Like, what? And but I thought, well, nothing else has worked. So I went downstairs. I had that book written in three about about four weeks. I wrote thirty five pages I think after that meditation. And and I didn't meditate either. I mean I taught meditation, but I didn't meditate on a regular basis. Yeah. And so that's where it started. And I Lao Tzu, the Chinese philosopher, I'm sure you know, said we teach best what we most need to learn. Yes. So then it kind of morphed into that. And it's interesting, Robin, because my I've been speaking a long time. And my journey in the last and as I evolve, my presentations evolve. And in the last two years, I'd say, they have kind of morphed. Because I was just doing another podcast and someone said, ⁓ well, you know, we learn through pain. And I said, Well, we can learn through joy as well, you know. Everything shifts if you're with a group of people and you're hysterically laughing. Or you just watch a really funny movie, your physiology actually shifts, you know that. And then that shifts the belief systems at times and shifts behaviors. But it's it's kind of moved. And I always make sure that the presentations are funny and engaging, and it's ⁓ like we were saying, a nonverbal communication with the audience. Because when they're in that kind of joyful laughing state, everything chills and you can get profound. So it's part of the process of speaking where you take them emotionally up and down and up and down. But as I've evolved in the last couple of years, ⁓ it's the message is shifting. It's still around joy. But this is ⁓ this was a I don't know, a sign. I I moved into a new place. I've moved a lot in the last three years because I came back to Dallas and I'm living in Dallas. I was unpacking a box and this book. I d I didn't even know I had this book. It's a little black book like this. Never seen it before. I must have because I packed it, but I'd mind. Never seen it before. And and forced this book just by itself. Boof on the floor. I went, Mm, well, maybe I should read that. So I read it and this line jumped out of it. It's called Beyond Doubt. Okay. And it was written a gazillion years ago by some woman who I forget the story now, but the line that jumped out was that joy is the embodiment of love. And it's such a beautiful line, and I must find her name so I can acknowledge her. But that's how things have shifted. And with your work on hope, there's a
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: Perfect dovetailing in that there's a another man that I've listened to recently who was a man who died for three hours and came back to life, Jonathan Ashford. And if I if I boil down what Jonathan's been sharing with the world and my interpretation of it, it it is that fundamentally every moment of every day we have the choice of do I judge or love? So do I judge and experience what's going on in my life, myself, the other person, or do I love it and embrace it and embody it? Wow. And so that's where it's really interesting because in the corporate world, you wouldn't think that would go over so well, but it is. People are really resonating with it. And I suspect that's part of a tool to give you hope.
speaker-0: Yes, absolutely.
speaker-1: You're making a conscious choice not to go down that judgment fear line, because that's what judgment is, it's all based in fear. Yes. And pursue the love joy line. It's gotta be conscious choice.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Amanda, you said that so well. And ⁓ my goodness, there's so many different threads I would love to pull on from what you just shared. First, I just wanted to get clarity. So you're sw swinging all the way back to when you wrote your first that book on joy. So just so I heard that correctly. So you actually had this like you had already lost your mother. Like you had already lost your mother, and then you had this experience where you were again like this kind of intuitive. direction to go do this thing and you listen to it. And ⁓ my gosh, like that is I just find that so heartwarming to to hear of that share.
speaker-1: Unusual though, because it didn't normally happen to me. And I woke up with a really vivid yes and we just had to acknowledge your puppy in the back.
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, that we have Navy. Yeah, Navy has joined us. Hello, Navy. Yeah, there she is.
speaker-1: ⁓ just make sure she's surveying the world, make sure it's safe for you. Yes. ⁓ Yeah. Those things never happened to me. And this was a really vivid I didn't know if it was a dream or a vision. But and I don't remember dreams normally, but it was very vivid, very strong. So I assume there were guides, God, whatever you want to call it. Yes. You know, Buddha, anything that works for you. ⁓ send me a message.
speaker-0: Yeah. Do you know I just had an opportunity to to interview ⁓ her name is Katherine Duncan and she's a spiritual ⁓ she was a chaplain, she was like she's had this remarkable career. And she talks about this idea that every once in a while it's almost as if like the other side, like it's like it gets close enough that we can see or have communication. And again, she has supported like a thousand deaths, like people like literally in these final moments and just that veil between the two sides of life and death sometimes that they come close. And and we do ⁓ she, you know, she talks so openly about messages and information or it and and so I thought it's so interesting hearing your story after, you know, hearing about Catherine's work. But it reminds me of, gosh, years ago when I first came across ⁓ in my studies, ⁓ Carl Jung's work where we was talking about synchronicity. And he talks about every once in a while, this was like Gosh, you know, Young was Freud's student. So this is so many years ago. But he talked about this idea that sometimes the spiritual self, it actually like kind of rubs up against our reality. And that when the spiritual realm runs up against reality, we have this thing called synchronosity, where we will have a moment in time like you just described, the vision, this this again, just this awakening of go do this thing and knowing the knowing. And you did it. And look at that how it influenced your career and your life afterwards, which it like I mean, that's that's amazing. I love hearing stories like this.
speaker-1: Yeah. Me me too. And but it hadn't happened to me before. So that was the re and since then so the other thing is that this year I've I've never been one really for goals and vision boards and stuff like that. Now I do believe that on on this let's say judgment side here, the stories we tell ourselves are everything. Of course. And our perception of life. And most people know that, but they They know it, well, they know it in their heads, but they don't know it in their hearts. Yeah. And my first business was called Head to Heart, Head Number Two, Heart, Proprietary Limited. Yeah. And ⁓ ever since then I've been trying to get the two connected. Yeah. And so it's that ⁓ self-talk that's going on, that's doing the judging largely of yourself too, which then makes you judge everybody else out of fear. And ⁓ relaxing into the wisdom, this is I've got to understand, I've got to know ⁓ the outcome. This is I'm being and I just know. Yeah. And and I'd love to say I've mastered this. You know, I'd love to say, ⁓ yes, I'm a goddess at this, but no, I'm still practicing.
speaker-0: Yes. I ⁓ I love that. And again, what I again the thread to pull there is thinking about this, you know, so often we don't even notice the stories we're telling ourselves. Yeah. And yet it impacts our perception of the day or it impacts how we see ourselves or those labels that we carry. And I also just really want to underline what you said about when we're judging ourselves so critically, like we are then judging other people that way. And and that that makes it ⁓ that much more difficult to be able to get clarity in terms of how we are showing up and what that looks like.
speaker-1: Exactly. And and if you take that a step further, 'cause the the first part of what you were saying Epigenetics shows us that ninety-five to ninety nine percent of the time we are literally, literally unconscious of what we're thinking. And the problem is that the stories that we embedded in ourselves as toddlers like I'm just doing ⁓ using chat to create a graphic of a terrified toddler inside a grown up body. Yes. Because
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Almost every grown up you meet is a terrified toddler walking around in a grown-up body. And the original diagram had the toddler in the stomach area, in the gut. And just on a literally on a podcast an hour ago, we were talking about it and I thought, ⁓ my god, it's in the wrong place. The terrified toddlers in your head.
speaker-0: Definitely.
speaker-1: Adult part is in the heart and the gut, where you your gut feelings come from because there are neurons, literal neurons, in the heart and the gut, which you know too. And so the real knowing comes from the gut and the heart, and the terrafied total thinking and analyzing and trying to understand and sort through things is in the head.
speaker-0: Yeah. And that's that and again, if you zooming out, that's that's what we know about a toddler's kind of drive is to try and make sense of a big scary world, try to get safe, try to make sure they're not rejected, try to make sure that they're able to be in community, make sure that their needs are being met. So I I really love just even as soon as he said it's not in the stomach, it's like, no, it's literally in the mind. It's that, you know, that scattered, that tired and wired. panicky feeling of just trying to find certainty in a world where there actually isn't a lot of certainty. And there's so much power and calm when we can surrender the need to have control of all the things. And I often talk about Amanda, my work, that the best way to feel out of control is to try to control everything. Like that's the quickest way to get out of control is to try to control everything. Yeah.
speaker-1: And it's you you just hit on when I was saying, you know, people set goals and vision boards. Well, I've never done that because I I I don't know, ever since I was a little girl, I think, and started hearing about it, I I would just ⁓ well for example, the first time I became a speaker, I didn't know you could be a speaker. Yeah. And I went to a teeny meet meeting of about six professional speakers in Australia. That honestly forty years ago, maybe more, probably more. And I had no clue. I was a physiotherapist with psychology background. I I didn't know what speakers earned. I didn't know you could be a speaker. So I said to one of the women, Well, what do you earn? 'Cause I don't know. And she told me there's a massive amount of money. Like I made thirty thousand dollars back then, I think, as a physio, or maybe twenty. And she said something like five hundred thousand. I went, What? And I didn't think about it again, but it just went in and I thought, ⁓ well, that's what speakers make. Yeah, I didn't say there's a goal or a target or anything. It just went unconscious. But I think when you set a rigid goal, it's almost as if God, the universe source, looks down and goes, Really? Is that all you wanted? Yes. I was going to give you a lot more, but ⁓ well, if that's all you want. So I came up with this acronym and you touched on it this year. For me, it's STAR. So it's surrender, trust, awareness, and receiving. ⁓
speaker-0: I love that acronym. That's a goodie. Yeah. Yeah. So surrender, trust, awareness. And I love that one about receiving. Yeah, because I think sometimes we're the we're the blockage in our we stand we get in our own way. We get in our own way.
speaker-1: Yeah. A when we're Like how much of the time do we do that? Almost always. But it's usually the stories we've told ourselves as the toddler. So it's I'm not good enough, I'm not worth loving, I'm unsafe in some way, or I'm separate, I don't belong, I don't fit in. Yes. They're the three core fears that that I reckon.
speaker-0: Yeah. And and what I also think about when we see that kind of that shift of what that shows up as grown-ups in corporate is this idea of earning our worth, the hustle, perform, achieve, do culture. And that's why when, for example, there's any potential like threat to ⁓ a restructuring or a change or any type of uncertainty, we actually see that, you know, that terrified toddler. take the screen, you know, jump in and and all of a sudden, you know, they're huge resistors to change. And and Amanda, I can share with you, I was working with a group who was in a process of restructuring a huge ⁓ component of their workforce. And I'll tell you, as somebody who comes in and they say, ⁓ can you talk about resiliency? It's like, of course I can. And they're like, yes, because we're laying off 500 people. It's like that is not the that is not my ideal way of supporting a group. But nevertheless, I was working with this group and what We talked about was I said, you know, our identity and our roles within these jobs are important. They allow us to have a lifestyle and a livelihood. But I said, like, what's what's the fear? Like you losing your job, I hear that. That's the fear. But like, what's what does that mean? Like, if you lose your job, then what happens? And what was so interesting with so many of these groups that I were working with is that when we took a deeper dive. It was it actually wasn't the job. It was the ability to support their family or their ability to pay their bills or their ability to do X or the ego component of the shame of being let go. And so for some of them, it had nothing to do with money. It was literally just this bruise to the ego that said I was, you know, declared redundant or let go. It wasn't it.
speaker-1: Tesho.
speaker-0: It wasn't special. So then it was like, okay, so for the ones that it's ego driven, what we do as settlements or compensation, it's gonna look way different for them versus the person who's worried about how do I pay rent. And so when I was working with those leaders and kind of sorting through the noise of just losing my job, which again, I'm not minimizing that, it's significant. And within those responses, there were so many pieces of information that made it really clear. How do we support them? And the ego group, they just needed to be able to kind of control the narrative to a point, right, Amanda, where it wasn't like it wasn't, you know, it wasn't me. Exactly. They exactly. Or, you know, this new opportunity or this, you know, this better, bigger, better, because that helps the ego. And then the folks that it was around financial was so interesting in some cases.
speaker-1: to leave. I just chose to leave.
speaker-0: They're like, okay, well, that job's not going to be here, but this job is it's similar. Pay, are you okay to r skill up, level up, new training to be able to be here in that role? And they were like a hundred percent, right? So again, it's just so fascinating the stories and then that idea of how we show up for these and when it's fear driven, ⁓ but also when it's actually if we can put some curiosity to it. So again, that's what you think of that.
speaker-1: Yes. Well, it but it's true because everything in life it's not about well w these things fall out of my mouth when I'm on stage, right? And then they're these humdingers and I go, ⁓ that's good. It everything in life is about feelings, everything. Everything, everything, everything. Yeah. And the feelings are driven by the thoughts. And if ninety five to ninety nine percent of the time we're unconscious of our thinking, those stories we told ourselves as toddlers repeated often enough become a belief. Yeah. That belief is like, Well, these will do. Is like putting on a set of glasses. Yeah. And now the entire world is colored yellow. I don't know it because these glasses I've been wearing for so long. But for someone to come to to try to shift our perspective on something is I guess what speakers do really. We create an environment that's safe enough for people to shift how they look at the world. Yes. And when those core fears are embedded, often I'll do this. There'll be I do concentric circles, and in the center of the circle is you, when you're born, the essence of who you are. You come through that birth canal, boom, as a spiritual bit, you are a spiritual being of love. Yes. Encased in a little tiny human format. And and we're born love. I mean that you babies don't go ⁓ piss off. Yeah. Angry, bitter, twisted. They cry because they're hungry and then they go. Yes. And then they become toddlers. And anybody who's ever had a two year old run towards them as they walk in the door, like you are the son. Yes. Knows the love a toddler is. And and then the next circle, so that's that's ⁓ born.
speaker-0: Your needs. And they're asleep.
speaker-1: The next circle is zero to seven. And it's in the epigenetics shows us zero to seven is when we embed those core fears. Yes. And so it's like malware goes in. And the source code, who you were as the original love being, which you still are, the source code gets corrupted by the malware. And then every other s aspect of your life, every relationship, every job, everything is run on the corrupted code. Mm-hmm. And it's the awareness that that's what's running the code and the ability to understand the fears and and put help the terrified toddler calm down. Yes. And learn to be. Yes. Because using your example of those people who made redundant, you know, that each one of them, let's say there's thirty sitting in a room, every single one of them has got their own little terrified toddler. And there's thirty terrified toddler responses. Yes. Yes. All based on the perception and the stories they told themselves and the version of their story.
speaker-0: Yeah, I love all of this. And I love how you're just braiding together like so many different schools of thoughts and ideas in a way that's like understandable. Like taking, you know, we know a family systems theory that introduced us to the different parts of who we are. And again, picking up different kind of, you know, again, as you say, with your language, with like that malware or, you know, that, you know, even one of the exercises I remember supporting a person with in coaching was. You know, they were t you know, they were talking about their inner critic. And I was, I was trying to invite them to say, like, how do we like reimagine this inner critic more as an inner coach? Like, what would the inner coach sound like? And give me some examples of, you know, tell me what the inner critic would say and then share what how do we reframe that to say, What would an inner coach say? And I remember having this like moment with this client because the client like pause and you could tell like something happened. I'm like, you know, and I and like, okay, something. Something just clicked. What's going on? And they said, My inner critic sounded like this person. And my inner pr critic like literally was or sorry, but the inner critic was like this person. And it literally was the voice, the mannerisms, the tone, the language of this person. And it literally, when you said to let's say reframe this to the inner coach, it all of a sudden sounded like this person. A different person in their family system. And it was just so amazing that what you're saying between with epinogenics between zero and seven, when those that, you know, that software is being installed or that virus gets in there, it could be a critical parent, a critical sibling, it could be ⁓ you know, even a you know, just a world encounter that shifts for you. Yeah. But what I love is that what you said about that kind of essence of love is that when we have been fortunate enough to have positive, you know, healthy kind of people in our world, sometimes that healing or that repair or that growth, they've already left some pieces of software behind. Yeah. Use your metaphor. So that way we can actually use that to help shift our thinking and shift therefore that narrative we carry forward.
speaker-1: And kind of like do a reboot. If we if we carry up with the computer metaphor, it's like a reboot. And and I think the the fastest way to reframe everything. So once you have this awareness of like the conversation we're having, people have heard the three core fears, they'll all go, ⁓ my god, I got this one, or I got the trifecta, like I did. And then the the trick is to First all, know which story. Second, know when it started. Without having to dive in deeply and explore and go through pain and grief and blah, blah, blah. Just you'll get a, ⁓ that's when it started, just like the inner critic person realized, ⁓ that was such and such a person. So you get a sense of it. And then that helps you understand why the toddler was so terrified, why they told themselves the story. Yeah. And and then the next part is. And a mentor of mine, David Martin, gave me this. He says, who benefited? So for example, I ⁓ I when I was two, apparently my mother left for a year. And I remembered nothing of my childhood anyway. Yeah ⁓ except for the odd moment, you know. And
speaker-0: Good.
speaker-1: When she died, someone she went to live with in Canada, in Toronto actually, ⁓ wrote to me this long, long letter, all handwritten, and I found out she'd left and she'd stayed away a year. Wow. I I had no clue. She never mentioned it till the day she died. She she had told me to reach out to this gentleman and I had, but it seemed like he was it it just wasn't the right time for us to meet. But then she died and I met him. So it made sense of everything I had done around my mother because as a two-year-old, I told myself, if I keep Mummy happy, she'll never leave me again. Right. So I spent the rest of my life till the day she died, trying to being responsible for my mother's happiness. In whatever format I thought that would take. Yeah. And one of the major reframes that I think is so powerful that I probably teach as a core component. It's so simple, but it's so powerful. It's gratitude. And I teach people to to do this with their fingers. And these are their gratitude glasses. You know, if you choose to put on your gratitude glasses and look at everything that happens to you with gratitude, once you've processed instant pain, you know, then then it changes stuff. Because if I hadn't done that I wouldn't have been the like we all say, you know, I wouldn't be the person I am now if that hadn't happened. But it's true. It's true. Unless you absolutely hate yourself and you're complete asshole. then the person you are right now with all your good qualities is as a consequence of that. Yes.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's powerful. I absolutely love that. And I think that's so remarkable because from it was interesting, my undergrad one of the areas of research I focus on was ⁓ attachment. So the fact that you experience that abandonment at two, like that is going to create again, just that legacy all the way through. And and again, I really just hold space for what you said about felt responsible for the emotions of your mom. And it's hard when we take on these roles where we are the, you know, the not just the knowledge keepers of things, but but also the emotional, you know, the emotional barometer of a family or a relationship or even a workplace where, you know, we become respon we feel responsible for everyone's emotions. And it totally. It totally does. Tell me more. Tell me more. No, I want to hear. No, please, I want to hear, please.
speaker-1: Yeah. No, you keep going. Well, I was just going to say that, you know, in personal relationships, my my responsibility for my mother's happiness morphed into responsibility for other people, morphed into responsibility for everyone. Demonstrated itself as a I have this information, I can fix you, I can help you, I can, you know, make things better for you. Well, A, nobody's broken. Took me forever to learn that.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: B, not my job to fix them, and they don't want you to fix them. Yeah. ⁓ C, ⁓ not everybody wants to be the beneficiary of my wisdom, and particularly in relationships. Yes. So it's taken me a very long time to come to terms with that. And and in terms of the who benefited question. Yes. Well, obviously my mother did, because I was Miss Goody Two Shoes, you I was perfect. I never got into trouble, never drank, never blah blah. But and she was a great mother too. But the I benefited in that I learned the lessons I came to learn, or I am learning them. Yes. And I chose, I have chosen to learn them. But I didn't necessarily benefit In the way you would say, ⁓ I had this lovely, happy childhood and a loving set of parents. My father was an alcoholic, and ⁓ and I just had the best marriage ever because I knew I was worth loving and I attracted someone who also knew he was worth loving, and etc. etc. etc. So it benefits us a a bit in that ⁓ growth. But not so much as usually the person we've adopted the responsibility for.
speaker-0: Fascinating. Okay, so Amanda, I'm how if you are someone who's listening to this, and I'm sure there's folks listening to this, like raising their hand saying, like, that is me, she is describing. What were some of the early steps that you took to stop carrying the responsibility of other people's emotions? Or what were some of the first ways that because again, I appreciate that's life work.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Where are just some of those like little dip or toe into the water? Where do we start as somebody who probably has tried to take on other people's emotions? Where do we even begin?
speaker-1: Well, first the obviously with awareness. Yes. And mine started in earnest. I I've been working on myself, you know, doing personal growth since I was twenty-one. Okay. And I read Wayne Dyer's book, Your Erroneous Zone. Yes. And that started the journey. Then when I was sixty-two, so I'm seventy-two now, so sixty-two, it be and of course writing the book on joy. Yes. The the first chapter is I think it's gratitude. ⁓ Because it's so fundamental. And the last chapter, which was twice the length of the others, which astonished me, I originally called equanimity. Okay. But I had to change it in the next version of the book to inner piece because nobody knew what equanimity was. And and to get the inner piece, it was the c combination of the previous eleven chapters. Yes. Where gratitude, hope, love, compassion.
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: generosity, listening, and I can't remember the others. But anyway, they're all in there. And so I started the work then, but when I met David Martin and did some more deep diving, he looked at me one day and I looked straight in the camera. So you hear this. Yes. Whether insert your age, when you hear sixty two insert your age. Okay. You have lived sixty two years of your life based on the story of a two year old. Do you wish to keep going? I had exactly the same response. I went, ⁓ damn. Yeah. No. Yeah. And then it was and is an ongoing process of catching the two year old going, And and she doesn't always have to go, ⁓ She can just go. Yeah. And in will jump the old patterns. So it it's really been awareness and post reflection probably. I hate to say it, but it's true. You know, I'll walk away from someone and go, ⁓ no, I tried to fix ⁓ Yes. And then I have to apologize and say, I'm really sorry I try to fix you. And then I would ask my friends, if you catch me starting to fix you, can you tell me? Yeah. Because I'm not
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: aware that I'm doing it. So as soon as I seem to be doing it, just let's have a signal. Yes. And and I'll go, ⁓ yeah I was. Yeah. Or then I might reflect on a day and if I can remember what happened during the day. If I catch in a replay myself doing that, I'll try to replay it again where I'm not trying to fix or not trying to take responsibility or not trying to control. That's the other thing. So that what gets embedded in my unconscious that night is the going with the flow type rather than the terrapart cricking to the edges going, no, no, no, it can't go that way.
speaker-0: Right. ⁓ my gosh, that's so insightful. And again, I love that idea about that awareness piece, but also catching the behavior, start noticing the patterns, the kind of ways it like really loudly shows up, but also just the subtle ways that it shows up. And you know, you can replace fixing someone with like people pleasing, right? Like there are so many other behaviors that you can just interchange that language or approval seeking. ⁓ you know, just the there's just so many different places that we can put energy towards learning more about those parts. And ⁓ my goodness. Well Amanda, I could talk to you for days. ⁓ thank you so much for bringing some of these insights, your perspective, your story into this conversation with me today and the listeners. ⁓ we'll make sure in the show notes to put lots of details as to how people can find you, your books, your work, also to bring you in for the great work that you do around, you know, executive retreats and coaching and the work that you do from the sage. ⁓ we'll make sure to share all of that ⁓ because this is ⁓ you have hard-earned wisdom that I want to make sure that we could share. ⁓ I appreciate you being here today. Thank you. Thank you for spending time with me on this episode of Life by Design. I appreciate if you have a moment to pay this forward, share it with someone who you think might benefit from the ideas shared in this episode. If you're feeling so inspired, please also rate and review the podcast wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Again, thank you for listening. Thank you for your time. Take good care, and I'll see you next time.
speaker-1: ⁓ well, the we were chatting beforehand and I think I just found a new bestie.
speaker-0: ⁓ I love it. Well, thank you so much. And Amanda, you have, as I said to you when I first jumped on this call, your work is so refreshing. Like when I took a deep dive and was looking at your materials and seeing you on stage, it just felt like this breath of fresh air. Can you let our listeners know all about the good work that you're doing, especially around the work that you do around joy, which I think the world needs a big dose of right now.
speaker-1: That's so kind of you. Thank you very much. I would like to say that I have mastered the art of joy and I'm just, you know, just a goddess of joy, really. ⁓ but ⁓ the only reason I write on joy, and I've been speaking about joy and how it works in the workplace for I I think it's 20 years now, is because I woke up one morning and ⁓ was told new. something that I had to write a book on joy. And I couldn't do it. I was one of the most joyless people I knew. Obviously that's why I had to write the book. and seriously I was in a miserable marriage, ⁓ divorced now, but we're best friends. So he's a lovely bloke, but I was miserable. I wasn't well. I d ⁓ I tried to write the book. I'd never had trouble writing books before, but I could not write this book. One morning I woke up And my it's soon after my mum had died, actually. And I had this, I don't know, dream, vision thing. And my mum said to me, ⁓ go downstairs and meditate, and I'm putting together a writing committee and we'll download the information. Now I have to tell you, I'm not I was not in any way, shape, or form that kind of person back then. Yeah. Like, what? And but I thought, well, nothing else has worked. So I went downstairs. I had that book written in three about about four weeks. I wrote thirty five pages I think after that meditation. And and I didn't meditate either. I mean I taught meditation, but I didn't meditate on a regular basis. Yeah. And so that's where it started. And I Lao Tzu, the Chinese philosopher, I'm sure you know, said we teach best what we most need to learn. Yes. So then it kind of morphed into that. And it's interesting, Robin, because my I've been speaking a long time. And my journey in the last and as I evolve, my presentations evolve. And in the last two years, I'd say, they have kind of morphed. Because I was just doing another podcast and someone said, ⁓ well, you know, we learn through pain. And I said, Well, we can learn through joy as well, you know. Everything shifts if you're with a group of people and you're hysterically laughing. Or you just watch a really funny movie, your physiology actually shifts, you know that. And then that shifts the belief systems at times and shifts behaviors. But it's it's kind of moved. And I always make sure that the presentations are funny and engaging, and it's ⁓ like we were saying, a nonverbal communication with the audience. Because when they're in that kind of joyful laughing state, everything chills and you can get profound. So it's part of the process of speaking where you take them emotionally up and down and up and down. But as I've evolved in the last couple of years, ⁓ it's the message is shifting. It's still around joy. But this is ⁓ this was a I don't know, a sign. I I moved into a new place. I've moved a lot in the last three years because I came back to Dallas and I'm living in Dallas. I was unpacking a box and this book. I d I didn't even know I had this book. It's a little black book like this. Never seen it before. I must have because I packed it, but I'd mind. Never seen it before. And and forced this book just by itself. Boof on the floor. I went, Mm, well, maybe I should read that. So I read it and this line jumped out of it. It's called Beyond Doubt. Okay. And it was written a gazillion years ago by some woman who I forget the story now, but the line that jumped out was that joy is the embodiment of love. And it's such a beautiful line, and I must find her name so I can acknowledge her. But that's how things have shifted. And with your work on hope, there's a
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: Perfect dovetailing in that there's a another man that I've listened to recently who was a man who died for three hours and came back to life, Jonathan Ashford. And if I if I boil down what Jonathan's been sharing with the world and my interpretation of it, it it is that fundamentally every moment of every day we have the choice of do I judge or love? So do I judge and experience what's going on in my life, myself, the other person, or do I love it and embrace it and embody it? Wow. And so that's where it's really interesting because in the corporate world, you wouldn't think that would go over so well, but it is. People are really resonating with it. And I suspect that's part of a tool to give you hope.
speaker-0: Yes, absolutely.
speaker-1: You're making a conscious choice not to go down that judgment fear line, because that's what judgment is, it's all based in fear. Yes. And pursue the love joy line. It's gotta be conscious choice.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Amanda, you said that so well. And ⁓ my goodness, there's so many different threads I would love to pull on from what you just shared. First, I just wanted to get clarity. So you're sw swinging all the way back to when you wrote your first that book on joy. So just so I heard that correctly. So you actually had this like you had already lost your mother. Like you had already lost your mother, and then you had this experience where you were again like this kind of intuitive. direction to go do this thing and you listen to it. And ⁓ my gosh, like that is I just find that so heartwarming to to hear of that share.
speaker-1: Unusual though, because it didn't normally happen to me. And I woke up with a really vivid yes and we just had to acknowledge your puppy in the back.
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, that we have Navy. Yeah, Navy has joined us. Hello, Navy. Yeah, there she is.
speaker-1: ⁓ just make sure she's surveying the world, make sure it's safe for you. Yes. ⁓ Yeah. Those things never happened to me. And this was a really vivid I didn't know if it was a dream or a vision. But and I don't remember dreams normally, but it was very vivid, very strong. So I assume there were guides, God, whatever you want to call it. Yes. You know, Buddha, anything that works for you. ⁓ send me a message.
speaker-0: Yeah. Do you know I just had an opportunity to to interview ⁓ her name is Katherine Duncan and she's a spiritual ⁓ she was a chaplain, she was like she's had this remarkable career. And she talks about this idea that every once in a while it's almost as if like the other side, like it's like it gets close enough that we can see or have communication. And again, she has supported like a thousand deaths, like people like literally in these final moments and just that veil between the two sides of life and death sometimes that they come close. And and we do ⁓ she, you know, she talks so openly about messages and information or it and and so I thought it's so interesting hearing your story after, you know, hearing about Catherine's work. But it reminds me of, gosh, years ago when I first came across ⁓ in my studies, ⁓ Carl Jung's work where we was talking about synchronicity. And he talks about every once in a while, this was like Gosh, you know, Young was Freud's student. So this is so many years ago. But he talked about this idea that sometimes the spiritual self, it actually like kind of rubs up against our reality. And that when the spiritual realm runs up against reality, we have this thing called synchronosity, where we will have a moment in time like you just described, the vision, this this again, just this awakening of go do this thing and knowing the knowing. And you did it. And look at that how it influenced your career and your life afterwards, which it like I mean, that's that's amazing. I love hearing stories like this.
speaker-1: Yeah. Me me too. And but it hadn't happened to me before. So that was the re and since then so the other thing is that this year I've I've never been one really for goals and vision boards and stuff like that. Now I do believe that on on this let's say judgment side here, the stories we tell ourselves are everything. Of course. And our perception of life. And most people know that, but they They know it, well, they know it in their heads, but they don't know it in their hearts. Yeah. And my first business was called Head to Heart, Head Number Two, Heart, Proprietary Limited. Yeah. And ⁓ ever since then I've been trying to get the two connected. Yeah. And so it's that ⁓ self-talk that's going on, that's doing the judging largely of yourself too, which then makes you judge everybody else out of fear. And ⁓ relaxing into the wisdom, this is I've got to understand, I've got to know ⁓ the outcome. This is I'm being and I just know. Yeah. And and I'd love to say I've mastered this. You know, I'd love to say, ⁓ yes, I'm a goddess at this, but no, I'm still practicing.
speaker-0: Yes. I ⁓ I love that. And again, what I again the thread to pull there is thinking about this, you know, so often we don't even notice the stories we're telling ourselves. Yeah. And yet it impacts our perception of the day or it impacts how we see ourselves or those labels that we carry. And I also just really want to underline what you said about when we're judging ourselves so critically, like we are then judging other people that way. And and that that makes it ⁓ that much more difficult to be able to get clarity in terms of how we are showing up and what that looks like.
speaker-1: Exactly. And and if you take that a step further, 'cause the the first part of what you were saying Epigenetics shows us that ninety-five to ninety nine percent of the time we are literally, literally unconscious of what we're thinking. And the problem is that the stories that we embedded in ourselves as toddlers like I'm just doing ⁓ using chat to create a graphic of a terrified toddler inside a grown up body. Yes. Because
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Almost every grown up you meet is a terrified toddler walking around in a grown-up body. And the original diagram had the toddler in the stomach area, in the gut. And just on a literally on a podcast an hour ago, we were talking about it and I thought, ⁓ my god, it's in the wrong place. The terrified toddlers in your head.
speaker-0: Definitely.
speaker-1: Adult part is in the heart and the gut, where you your gut feelings come from because there are neurons, literal neurons, in the heart and the gut, which you know too. And so the real knowing comes from the gut and the heart, and the terrafied total thinking and analyzing and trying to understand and sort through things is in the head.
speaker-0: Yeah. And that's that and again, if you zooming out, that's that's what we know about a toddler's kind of drive is to try and make sense of a big scary world, try to get safe, try to make sure they're not rejected, try to make sure that they're able to be in community, make sure that their needs are being met. So I I really love just even as soon as he said it's not in the stomach, it's like, no, it's literally in the mind. It's that, you know, that scattered, that tired and wired. panicky feeling of just trying to find certainty in a world where there actually isn't a lot of certainty. And there's so much power and calm when we can surrender the need to have control of all the things. And I often talk about Amanda, my work, that the best way to feel out of control is to try to control everything. Like that's the quickest way to get out of control is to try to control everything. Yeah.
speaker-1: And it's you you just hit on when I was saying, you know, people set goals and vision boards. Well, I've never done that because I I I don't know, ever since I was a little girl, I think, and started hearing about it, I I would just ⁓ well for example, the first time I became a speaker, I didn't know you could be a speaker. Yeah. And I went to a teeny meet meeting of about six professional speakers in Australia. That honestly forty years ago, maybe more, probably more. And I had no clue. I was a physiotherapist with psychology background. I I didn't know what speakers earned. I didn't know you could be a speaker. So I said to one of the women, Well, what do you earn? 'Cause I don't know. And she told me there's a massive amount of money. Like I made thirty thousand dollars back then, I think, as a physio, or maybe twenty. And she said something like five hundred thousand. I went, What? And I didn't think about it again, but it just went in and I thought, ⁓ well, that's what speakers make. Yeah, I didn't say there's a goal or a target or anything. It just went unconscious. But I think when you set a rigid goal, it's almost as if God, the universe source, looks down and goes, Really? Is that all you wanted? Yes. I was going to give you a lot more, but ⁓ well, if that's all you want. So I came up with this acronym and you touched on it this year. For me, it's STAR. So it's surrender, trust, awareness, and receiving. ⁓
speaker-0: I love that acronym. That's a goodie. Yeah. Yeah. So surrender, trust, awareness. And I love that one about receiving. Yeah, because I think sometimes we're the we're the blockage in our we stand we get in our own way. We get in our own way.
speaker-1: Yeah. A when we're Like how much of the time do we do that? Almost always. But it's usually the stories we've told ourselves as the toddler. So it's I'm not good enough, I'm not worth loving, I'm unsafe in some way, or I'm separate, I don't belong, I don't fit in. Yes. They're the three core fears that that I reckon.
speaker-0: Yeah. And and what I also think about when we see that kind of that shift of what that shows up as grown-ups in corporate is this idea of earning our worth, the hustle, perform, achieve, do culture. And that's why when, for example, there's any potential like threat to ⁓ a restructuring or a change or any type of uncertainty, we actually see that, you know, that terrified toddler. take the screen, you know, jump in and and all of a sudden, you know, they're huge resistors to change. And and Amanda, I can share with you, I was working with a group who was in a process of restructuring a huge ⁓ component of their workforce. And I'll tell you, as somebody who comes in and they say, ⁓ can you talk about resiliency? It's like, of course I can. And they're like, yes, because we're laying off 500 people. It's like that is not the that is not my ideal way of supporting a group. But nevertheless, I was working with this group and what We talked about was I said, you know, our identity and our roles within these jobs are important. They allow us to have a lifestyle and a livelihood. But I said, like, what's what's the fear? Like you losing your job, I hear that. That's the fear. But like, what's what does that mean? Like, if you lose your job, then what happens? And what was so interesting with so many of these groups that I were working with is that when we took a deeper dive. It was it actually wasn't the job. It was the ability to support their family or their ability to pay their bills or their ability to do X or the ego component of the shame of being let go. And so for some of them, it had nothing to do with money. It was literally just this bruise to the ego that said I was, you know, declared redundant or let go. It wasn't it.
speaker-1: Tesho.
speaker-0: It wasn't special. So then it was like, okay, so for the ones that it's ego driven, what we do as settlements or compensation, it's gonna look way different for them versus the person who's worried about how do I pay rent. And so when I was working with those leaders and kind of sorting through the noise of just losing my job, which again, I'm not minimizing that, it's significant. And within those responses, there were so many pieces of information that made it really clear. How do we support them? And the ego group, they just needed to be able to kind of control the narrative to a point, right, Amanda, where it wasn't like it wasn't, you know, it wasn't me. Exactly. They exactly. Or, you know, this new opportunity or this, you know, this better, bigger, better, because that helps the ego. And then the folks that it was around financial was so interesting in some cases.
speaker-1: to leave. I just chose to leave.
speaker-0: They're like, okay, well, that job's not going to be here, but this job is it's similar. Pay, are you okay to r skill up, level up, new training to be able to be here in that role? And they were like a hundred percent, right? So again, it's just so fascinating the stories and then that idea of how we show up for these and when it's fear driven, ⁓ but also when it's actually if we can put some curiosity to it. So again, that's what you think of that.
speaker-1: Yes. Well, it but it's true because everything in life it's not about well w these things fall out of my mouth when I'm on stage, right? And then they're these humdingers and I go, ⁓ that's good. It everything in life is about feelings, everything. Everything, everything, everything. Yeah. And the feelings are driven by the thoughts. And if ninety five to ninety nine percent of the time we're unconscious of our thinking, those stories we told ourselves as toddlers repeated often enough become a belief. Yeah. That belief is like, Well, these will do. Is like putting on a set of glasses. Yeah. And now the entire world is colored yellow. I don't know it because these glasses I've been wearing for so long. But for someone to come to to try to shift our perspective on something is I guess what speakers do really. We create an environment that's safe enough for people to shift how they look at the world. Yes. And when those core fears are embedded, often I'll do this. There'll be I do concentric circles, and in the center of the circle is you, when you're born, the essence of who you are. You come through that birth canal, boom, as a spiritual bit, you are a spiritual being of love. Yes. Encased in a little tiny human format. And and we're born love. I mean that you babies don't go ⁓ piss off. Yeah. Angry, bitter, twisted. They cry because they're hungry and then they go. Yes. And then they become toddlers. And anybody who's ever had a two year old run towards them as they walk in the door, like you are the son. Yes. Knows the love a toddler is. And and then the next circle, so that's that's ⁓ born.
speaker-0: Your needs. And they're asleep.
speaker-1: The next circle is zero to seven. And it's in the epigenetics shows us zero to seven is when we embed those core fears. Yes. And so it's like malware goes in. And the source code, who you were as the original love being, which you still are, the source code gets corrupted by the malware. And then every other s aspect of your life, every relationship, every job, everything is run on the corrupted code. Mm-hmm. And it's the awareness that that's what's running the code and the ability to understand the fears and and put help the terrified toddler calm down. Yes. And learn to be. Yes. Because using your example of those people who made redundant, you know, that each one of them, let's say there's thirty sitting in a room, every single one of them has got their own little terrified toddler. And there's thirty terrified toddler responses. Yes. Yes. All based on the perception and the stories they told themselves and the version of their story.
speaker-0: Yeah, I love all of this. And I love how you're just braiding together like so many different schools of thoughts and ideas in a way that's like understandable. Like taking, you know, we know a family systems theory that introduced us to the different parts of who we are. And again, picking up different kind of, you know, again, as you say, with your language, with like that malware or, you know, that, you know, even one of the exercises I remember supporting a person with in coaching was. You know, they were t you know, they were talking about their inner critic. And I was, I was trying to invite them to say, like, how do we like reimagine this inner critic more as an inner coach? Like, what would the inner coach sound like? And give me some examples of, you know, tell me what the inner critic would say and then share what how do we reframe that to say, What would an inner coach say? And I remember having this like moment with this client because the client like pause and you could tell like something happened. I'm like, you know, and I and like, okay, something. Something just clicked. What's going on? And they said, My inner critic sounded like this person. And my inner pr critic like literally was or sorry, but the inner critic was like this person. And it literally was the voice, the mannerisms, the tone, the language of this person. And it literally, when you said to let's say reframe this to the inner coach, it all of a sudden sounded like this person. A different person in their family system. And it was just so amazing that what you're saying between with epinogenics between zero and seven, when those that, you know, that software is being installed or that virus gets in there, it could be a critical parent, a critical sibling, it could be ⁓ you know, even a you know, just a world encounter that shifts for you. Yeah. But what I love is that what you said about that kind of essence of love is that when we have been fortunate enough to have positive, you know, healthy kind of people in our world, sometimes that healing or that repair or that growth, they've already left some pieces of software behind. Yeah. Use your metaphor. So that way we can actually use that to help shift our thinking and shift therefore that narrative we carry forward.
speaker-1: And kind of like do a reboot. If we if we carry up with the computer metaphor, it's like a reboot. And and I think the the fastest way to reframe everything. So once you have this awareness of like the conversation we're having, people have heard the three core fears, they'll all go, ⁓ my god, I got this one, or I got the trifecta, like I did. And then the the trick is to First all, know which story. Second, know when it started. Without having to dive in deeply and explore and go through pain and grief and blah, blah, blah. Just you'll get a, ⁓ that's when it started, just like the inner critic person realized, ⁓ that was such and such a person. So you get a sense of it. And then that helps you understand why the toddler was so terrified, why they told themselves the story. Yeah. And and then the next part is. And a mentor of mine, David Martin, gave me this. He says, who benefited? So for example, I ⁓ I when I was two, apparently my mother left for a year. And I remembered nothing of my childhood anyway. Yeah ⁓ except for the odd moment, you know. And
speaker-0: Good.
speaker-1: When she died, someone she went to live with in Canada, in Toronto actually, ⁓ wrote to me this long, long letter, all handwritten, and I found out she'd left and she'd stayed away a year. Wow. I I had no clue. She never mentioned it till the day she died. She she had told me to reach out to this gentleman and I had, but it seemed like he was it it just wasn't the right time for us to meet. But then she died and I met him. So it made sense of everything I had done around my mother because as a two-year-old, I told myself, if I keep Mummy happy, she'll never leave me again. Right. So I spent the rest of my life till the day she died, trying to being responsible for my mother's happiness. In whatever format I thought that would take. Yeah. And one of the major reframes that I think is so powerful that I probably teach as a core component. It's so simple, but it's so powerful. It's gratitude. And I teach people to to do this with their fingers. And these are their gratitude glasses. You know, if you choose to put on your gratitude glasses and look at everything that happens to you with gratitude, once you've processed instant pain, you know, then then it changes stuff. Because if I hadn't done that I wouldn't have been the like we all say, you know, I wouldn't be the person I am now if that hadn't happened. But it's true. It's true. Unless you absolutely hate yourself and you're complete asshole. then the person you are right now with all your good qualities is as a consequence of that. Yes.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's powerful. I absolutely love that. And I think that's so remarkable because from it was interesting, my undergrad one of the areas of research I focus on was ⁓ attachment. So the fact that you experience that abandonment at two, like that is going to create again, just that legacy all the way through. And and again, I really just hold space for what you said about felt responsible for the emotions of your mom. And it's hard when we take on these roles where we are the, you know, the not just the knowledge keepers of things, but but also the emotional, you know, the emotional barometer of a family or a relationship or even a workplace where, you know, we become respon we feel responsible for everyone's emotions. And it totally. It totally does. Tell me more. Tell me more. No, I want to hear. No, please, I want to hear, please.
speaker-1: Yeah. No, you keep going. Well, I was just going to say that, you know, in personal relationships, my my responsibility for my mother's happiness morphed into responsibility for other people, morphed into responsibility for everyone. Demonstrated itself as a I have this information, I can fix you, I can help you, I can, you know, make things better for you. Well, A, nobody's broken. Took me forever to learn that.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: B, not my job to fix them, and they don't want you to fix them. Yeah. ⁓ C, ⁓ not everybody wants to be the beneficiary of my wisdom, and particularly in relationships. Yes. So it's taken me a very long time to come to terms with that. And and in terms of the who benefited question. Yes. Well, obviously my mother did, because I was Miss Goody Two Shoes, you I was perfect. I never got into trouble, never drank, never blah blah. But and she was a great mother too. But the I benefited in that I learned the lessons I came to learn, or I am learning them. Yes. And I chose, I have chosen to learn them. But I didn't necessarily benefit In the way you would say, ⁓ I had this lovely, happy childhood and a loving set of parents. My father was an alcoholic, and ⁓ and I just had the best marriage ever because I knew I was worth loving and I attracted someone who also knew he was worth loving, and etc. etc. etc. So it benefits us a a bit in that ⁓ growth. But not so much as usually the person we've adopted the responsibility for.
speaker-0: Fascinating. Okay, so Amanda, I'm how if you are someone who's listening to this, and I'm sure there's folks listening to this, like raising their hand saying, like, that is me, she is describing. What were some of the early steps that you took to stop carrying the responsibility of other people's emotions? Or what were some of the first ways that because again, I appreciate that's life work.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Where are just some of those like little dip or toe into the water? Where do we start as somebody who probably has tried to take on other people's emotions? Where do we even begin?
speaker-1: Well, first the obviously with awareness. Yes. And mine started in earnest. I I've been working on myself, you know, doing personal growth since I was twenty-one. Okay. And I read Wayne Dyer's book, Your Erroneous Zone. Yes. And that started the journey. Then when I was sixty-two, so I'm seventy-two now, so sixty-two, it be and of course writing the book on joy. Yes. The the first chapter is I think it's gratitude. ⁓ Because it's so fundamental. And the last chapter, which was twice the length of the others, which astonished me, I originally called equanimity. Okay. But I had to change it in the next version of the book to inner piece because nobody knew what equanimity was. And and to get the inner piece, it was the c combination of the previous eleven chapters. Yes. Where gratitude, hope, love, compassion.
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: generosity, listening, and I can't remember the others. But anyway, they're all in there. And so I started the work then, but when I met David Martin and did some more deep diving, he looked at me one day and I looked straight in the camera. So you hear this. Yes. Whether insert your age, when you hear sixty two insert your age. Okay. You have lived sixty two years of your life based on the story of a two year old. Do you wish to keep going? I had exactly the same response. I went, ⁓ damn. Yeah. No. Yeah. And then it was and is an ongoing process of catching the two year old going, And and she doesn't always have to go, ⁓ She can just go. Yeah. And in will jump the old patterns. So it it's really been awareness and post reflection probably. I hate to say it, but it's true. You know, I'll walk away from someone and go, ⁓ no, I tried to fix ⁓ Yes. And then I have to apologize and say, I'm really sorry I try to fix you. And then I would ask my friends, if you catch me starting to fix you, can you tell me? Yeah. Because I'm not
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: aware that I'm doing it. So as soon as I seem to be doing it, just let's have a signal. Yes. And and I'll go, ⁓ yeah I was. Yeah. Or then I might reflect on a day and if I can remember what happened during the day. If I catch in a replay myself doing that, I'll try to replay it again where I'm not trying to fix or not trying to take responsibility or not trying to control. That's the other thing. So that what gets embedded in my unconscious that night is the going with the flow type rather than the terrapart cricking to the edges going, no, no, no, it can't go that way.
speaker-0: Right. ⁓ my gosh, that's so insightful. And again, I love that idea about that awareness piece, but also catching the behavior, start noticing the patterns, the kind of ways it like really loudly shows up, but also just the subtle ways that it shows up. And you know, you can replace fixing someone with like people pleasing, right? Like there are so many other behaviors that you can just interchange that language or approval seeking. ⁓ you know, just the there's just so many different places that we can put energy towards learning more about those parts. And ⁓ my goodness. Well Amanda, I could talk to you for days. ⁓ thank you so much for bringing some of these insights, your perspective, your story into this conversation with me today and the listeners. ⁓ we'll make sure in the show notes to put lots of details as to how people can find you, your books, your work, also to bring you in for the great work that you do around, you know, executive retreats and coaching and the work that you do from the sage. ⁓ we'll make sure to share all of that ⁓ because this is ⁓ you have hard-earned wisdom that I want to make sure that we could share. ⁓ I appreciate you being here today. Thank you. Thank you for spending time with me on this episode of Life by Design. I appreciate if you have a moment to pay this forward, share it with someone who you think might benefit from the ideas shared in this episode. If you're feeling so inspired, please also rate and review the podcast wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Again, thank you for listening. Thank you for your time. Take good care, and I'll see you next time.
