00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.960
Hi, and welcome to NASCIO Voices, where we talk all things state IT.
00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:11.199
I'm Amy Glasscock in Lexington, Kentucky.
00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:13.519
And I'm Alex Whitaker in Washington, D.C.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:20.559
Today we have our very own Kalea Young Gibson back on the podcast to talk about NASCIO's new survey of state accessibility officers.
00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:21.760
Kalea, welcome back.
00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:23.120
I feel like you're becoming a regular.
00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:25.679
Oh yeah, for sure.
00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:26.719
Thanks for having me again.
00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:27.760
Absolutely.
00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:32.240
So before we get into what the survey says, give us the quick overview.
00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:37.200
Why did NASCIO want to survey state accessibility officers and what were you hoping to learn?
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:46.640
Yeah, so I accessibility was the first really big issue that I started at NASCIO, which was in 2024, I believe.
00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:48.399
Feels a lot longer than two years.
00:00:48.399 --> 00:01:03.439
But you know, while we were doing the working group and kind of just kind of gathering states for the first time under NASIO's banner, we kind of realized that all of a sudden states were relying on accessibility officers for huge responsibilities, right?
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:16.640
You know, talking final rule compliance, enterprise standards, procurement guidance, but there was no really like national picture of who these officers were or how their programs worked on a state-by-state level.
00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:21.760
The role was emerging everywhere, and yet it was still largely undocumented.
00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:23.280
So the goal was really simple.
00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:25.599
It was just to understand the AO landscape.
00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:40.079
NASCIO wanted to learn how states are structuring accessibility, what authority these officers have, where the biggest gaps are, and what support they need to meet rising expectations, both, you know, just on a general enterprise level and under the DOJ final rule.
00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:55.840
In a lot of ways, this survey was about giving accessibility officers a shared baseline and states, you know, wanting to know more about accessibility, a shared baseline, so they could see themselves in kind of like the national landscape and understand that they are not building these programs alone.
00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:57.439
Yeah, that sounds great.
00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:01.200
And uh, you know, we've done similar things with CISOs and CPOs.
00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:02.560
So it it is Yeah, yeah.
00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:08.719
We took a a lot of a lot of inspiration from your CPO work, Amy, in in the early days when you were still building it.
00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:09.439
So shout out to you.
00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:10.479
Thank you.
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:10.800
Yep.
00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:13.599
And we just had uh did one for the CDOs as well.
00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:17.599
So yeah, it's it is it's great to get that national snapshot.
00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:26.479
Now the number of other letters I have to follow it.
00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:30.960
That letter is getting long because it's CTOs and CDOs and which I'm happy to do.
00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:31.439
I love it.
00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:33.280
We represent everybody.
00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:34.159
Yeah, we really do.
00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:37.199
And our staff is not really growing at the same rate.
00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:40.319
So give us some give us some grace.
00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:47.199
One thing that really comes through in the report is just kind of how differently accessibility programs have developed from state to state.
00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:48.240
How do we get there?
00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:52.960
What are some of the forces that have shaped these programs over the last 10 years or so?
00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:53.759
Right.
00:02:53.759 --> 00:03:00.319
So if you kind of zoom out from like this, you know, current what I've been calling a digital accessibility renaissance, right?
00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:15.280
It kind of shows that states didn't suddenly discover accessibility, but it was kind of pushed to the front, especially over the last couple of years, by policy pressure, cultural awakenings, and you know, just the reality of technology in today's age.
00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:28.080
But by far the biggest accelerant was the 2024 DOJ final rule, and that essentially forced states, every state, to take stock of their digital services and ask, are we actually serving everyone?
00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:30.400
That mandate didn't come out of nowhere either.
00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:45.120
It landed on top of years of rising expectations around digital government, more online services, a growing recognition that accessibility is a civil right, not a nice to have, and also, you know, the legal responses to accessibility being a civil right.
00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:52.240
But the report, it also shows that states were kind of already inching forward in that direction before the rule, right?
00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:56.240
Which is why the rule is kind of like an accelerant, not something that just started it altogether.
00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:07.680
You see policy updates in 58% of states, training expansion, and agency level accessibility leads popping up in 71% of states as of the summer when this array was issued.
00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:11.919
So the final rule didn't necessarily start the movement, but definitely crystallize it.
00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:20.959
I mean, it definitely started with kind of you know just understanding what technology can do and building off of like the surrounding cultural moment we're in.
00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:24.160
We prefer, you know, equity, inclusion, more of that for everyone.
00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:30.959
So we to we talked about this just a moment ago when you mentioned the accessibility rule and sort of the requirements and and mandates that have been created.
00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:41.199
But you know, I think that one of the things that you've talked about, Khalia, is that a lot of these programs seem to have started because somebody, or maybe a small group of somebody, really cared about accessibility and pushed it forward.
00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:44.800
So, what did you make of that idea when you looked at the actual survey results?
00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:55.680
Yeah, so I think you know, this is actually a really good case study for how modernization actually happens in government, right?
00:04:55.680 --> 00:05:04.079
So the report it makes it clear that accessibility accessibility programs they often sprouted from these small pockets of passion.
00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:16.560
People who cared enough to push the work forward, even when they didn't have the authority, staff, or budget, and in some cases, people being personally impacted by digital inaccessibility and getting into the work that way.
00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:27.439
And I do think that it's telling that 23% of accessibility officers still have no formal authority, and 67% of states don't have any dedicated funding.
00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:40.560
So I think it says that government modernization is still a very deeply human process when it starts off at least, and big shifts often start with the individuals who see that gap and just refuse to ignore it.
00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:49.120
Accessibility hasn't grown because states designed, you know, perfect enterprise structures and every state has, you know, a standard digital accessibility policy.
00:05:49.120 --> 00:06:01.839
It grew because people kept showing up and they kept building communities of practice, hosting office hours, building national communities of practice, and continuing to convince leadership that accessibility mattered.
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:17.120
So, in sum, I think it really showed me in this report can tell a lot of people that whether it's accessibility or anything you want to start the modernization process on in your enterprise, your best bet is to start at grassroots first and then address governance second.
00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:19.519
So let's talk about where states are still struggling.
00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:25.839
Document remediation and some of those really high traffic digital services came up as significant gaps.
00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:30.319
So I'm wondering, is there a common reason for why those areas are still so hard?
00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:31.680
Is it a technology problem?
00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:32.800
Is it resources?
00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:34.480
Is it organizational culture?
00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:37.199
You know, is there any kind of key thread that you've identified?
00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:41.600
Yeah, so all the things you mentioned definitely play a role into that.
00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:47.199
But the key thread, and I think the one that is the most straightforward, is capacity.
00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:51.680
Like you mentioned, document remediation is the number one non-compliance area.
00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:59.680
75% of states have not achieved full compliance there, and high traffic remediating high traffic systems are right behind it at 70%.
00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:04.079
And so it's like these aren't areas where people don't want to do the work, right?
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:11.199
And we just talked, you know, in a little bit a few moments ago about how the accessibility professionals are super passionate about doing the work.
00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:12.480
They want to do the work.
00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:19.360
These areas are super labor-intensive, they are very technically complex, and they are chronically understaffed.
00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:30.959
Half of states in this report say that they don't have the resources or staff to remediate everything statewide, and this is even under the recently extended DOJ final rule.
00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:37.680
And most remediation timelines fall into the 30 to 90 day range once an issue is identified.
00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:48.079
But again, that is just, you know, an average, it's not taking into account all of the you know different staffing shortages and whatnot that could impact any individual state's remediation time.
00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:56.240
So, yeah, you know, technical debt plays a role, especially when you're dealing with older systems that require a lot of like hands-on fixes, and yeah, culture matters.
00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:01.120
Optional training and decentralized governments, governings, excuse me, do create uneven readiness.
00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:09.519
But I think the biggest theme is simply that states know what needs to be done, they just don't have the capacity, the operational capacity to do it.
00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:14.959
It's definitely less of a resistance thing and more of a technological reality thing for sure.
00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:16.240
Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:17.040
Got it.
00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:17.360
Thanks.
00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.160
So there is another finding that jumped out at me.
00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:28.480
So states are often relying on vendors to tell them that their products are accessible, but they aren't necessarily independently verifying those claims.
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:30.319
So what does that tell us?
00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:40.639
Yeah, so I was this was something that I sat with as well because I also had done an earlier piece, I think it was earlier this year or last year, about procurement and accessibility.
00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:49.519
And so I think the report paints a pretty clear picture that yes, states overwhelmingly trust vendors and they're not verifying it consistently.
00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:55.440
And again, I think that also kind of speaks into you know, it's not that they don't want to, there's that operational capacity piece.
00:08:55.440 --> 00:09:07.120
But even though 77% of states say that they do validate vendor claims, the most common methods are your standard things like accessibility conformance reports, in-house testing, and demonstrations.
00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:31.440
But now you're not really seeing a lot of like deep in-depth audits, only four states maintain vetted vendor databases, which is basically where if a state has an existing relationship with the vendor and they know that that vendor is reliable and will consistently meet or exceed web content and accessibility guidelines 2.1 criteria, they get put into this vetted vendor database.
00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:36.399
And so the next time that that state has a need, they consort with that database first.
00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:39.120
Only four states across the nation do that.
00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:49.120
But consequence-based accountability mechanisms like breach, like breach of penalties for contracts, they only show up in 37% of states.
00:09:49.120 --> 00:10:05.600
So I think that tells us that the relationship between government and industry is still largely built on trust over verification, largely because states just don't have the capacity to do these rigorous checks on top of their own managing their own state-maintained systems.
00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:22.320
Procurement is decentralized in a lot of states, testing staff is limited in a lamas in a lot of states, and accessibility officers also lack that authority across the board to be able to really, really kind of push this in the right direction and implement it how they see it fit themselves.
00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:25.279
In this digital era, that does create a lot of tension.
00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:34.000
States need vendors more than vendors need states in some cases, and when that capacity is thin, the trust becomes the default even when the risk is high.
00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:35.600
Yeah, that's a really good point.
00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.919
Yeah, so hopefully, you know, this report will shed some light on that issue as well.
00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:54.320
So obviously, we can't have a state IT conversation in 2026 without talking about AI, and um, you know, AI can help states do accessibility work faster at a larger scale, but at the end of the day, accessibility is always gonna be about people.
00:10:54.320 --> 00:11:00.960
So, how do states make sure that human experience doesn't get lost when they're bringing more AI into the process?
00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:01.600
Right.
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:06.320
So I think the report is it sounds very poetic at times.
00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:16.320
AI is super helpful and we know that, but in the accessibility realm, it can only be helpful in the places where straight up judgment is not required.
00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:21.679
So looking into kind of the data from the report, states are using AI for automated testing.
00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:23.440
71% of states are doing that.
00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:30.080
71% of states are also using AI to help with document remediation, captioning, content checks, and monitoring.
00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:36.080
And so all of these tasks are very repetitive and they are very high-volume tasks that can bog down staff.
00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:46.879
But when it comes to anything that could even remotely touch civil rights, risk, or open up any, you know, legal interpretation, states are cautious as they should be.
00:11:46.879 --> 00:12:03.440
53% of states report that this their caution comes from the biases and inequity and the risk of AI-generated content introducing accessibility barriers like that and potentially accessibility barriers that are yet to be known.
00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:09.200
So I wouldn't say that the tension, at least in the accessibility sphere, is AI versus humans.
00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:14.320
It's AI for scale versus humans for judgment and trying to continue to balance that.
00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:23.360
Because at the end of the day, accessibility is ultimately about lived experience, about whether a disabled person can actually use a service.
00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:30.480
And AI can accelerate that work, but it can't replace the human understanding of what equitable digital government looks like.
00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:32.240
Yeah, that's that's really fascinating.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:37.840
I think it really kind of mirrors a lot of the other questions that as we're incorporating more and more AI into our governance.
00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:42.799
You know, the report paints a picture of accessibility officers really as emerging enterprise leaders.
00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:47.519
And as this role becomes more common in state governance, what does that really tell us about where things are headed?
00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:55.200
And also what does it tell us about how accessibility fits into bigger conversations about technology, equity, decision making, kind of all the above?
00:12:55.519 --> 00:13:01.919
Yeah, so accessibility officers are far beyond being niche specialists.
00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:05.039
They are real big deal enterprise leaders.
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:19.919
They are reporting to CIOs and equivalent positions, directly shaping and influencing procurement, influencing policy, guiding governance, and they are increasingly acting as the architects of statewide digital equity.
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:27.440
Even with their limited authority, they're still finding ways to drive training, set standards, and build communities of practice.
00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:31.600
And you know, their rise just signals a shift in government as a whole.
00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:38.960
Equity is becoming an operational discipline, an operational mandate, and it's no longer just a value statement.
00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:44.559
That reshapes the relationship between technology and state power as a whole, I think.
00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:52.480
It means states are beginning to treat accessibility the way they treat things like cybersecurity as a core requirement of digital service delivery.
00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:58.559
Governments is expanding to include civil rights as a measurable, trackable performance domain.
00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:05.840
And it means future digital government leaders will need fluency, not just in tech, but in equity as well.
00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:12.240
And accessibility officers are right now actively showing us exactly what that future looks like.
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:13.039
All right.
00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:15.120
Well, that is all really fascinating.
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:18.320
And I know that everybody's gonna want to take a look at that report to learn more.
00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:28.799
But Calillo, today we have covered surveys, vendors, AI, and accessibility governments, which means that you have officially entered the lightning round.
00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:29.279
Are you ready?
00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:30.639
I am.
00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.519
All right, so I'm excited for this first question.
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:36.799
What's something you've gotten way too into lately?
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.919
So for me, it's been tattoos, specifically getting them and their meaning.
00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.080
So, you know, we've all obviously met in person.
00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:48.000
I I've always loved the art form, and you know, I have a few small tattoos.
00:14:48.000 --> 00:15:00.559
But now that I kind of have like a more developed sense of self and I kind of know what I guess life and personal meanings I'm going to carry with me for the rest of mine, I'm starting to get my actual big theme pieces.
00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:10.320
And so my theme for my arms is the intersection of African and African American culture and fantasy and horrorcore, which is heavily influenced, you know, by black culture as it is.
00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:17.279
And so the bicep piece that was wrapped up at Summit is actually a Caribbean vampire, so you'll be able to see her fully healed.
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:18.960
I'm excited.
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:24.480
You know, that's also why I am just now getting my enterprise architecture and Doug Robinson tattooed.
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.840
It's taking me a little while, but I'm I'm ready to do it.
00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:30.879
So you know it's a value you'll carry throughout the rest of your life.
00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:31.200
Right.
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.240
Yeah, EA is life just across my back.
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:36.639
All right.
00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:37.679
Next question.
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:41.519
What's one app on your phone that you probably use more than you should?
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:43.440
Honestly, it's Chewy.
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:47.600
Yeah, you know, they have, yeah, we we are all pet parents.
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.519
We know they have the most amazing deals.
00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:56.000
And we are the pet parents that pretend like they're like real kids, so we buy them like two to three toys every week.
00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:01.919
Um so Chewy makes spoiling pets affordable, and no, they did not pay me to say this.
00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:02.799
They really do.
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:07.200
Do you have like the the yearly membership so you get like free shipping no matter what you buy?
00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:07.519
Yes.
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:08.080
Yeah.
00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:08.559
Me too.
00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:10.799
I'm like, no-brainer, they give you money back.
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:11.600
Yeah.
00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:12.799
We did that.
00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:16.639
And then we also had like the automatic refill for the for the dog food.
00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:25.039
So we had accident we moved houses and and and we forgot to change it, and so we had like a 75-pound of dog food sent to our old house.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.759
And fortunately, the new owners were very chill about it, but it was it wasn't fun to go get it.
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:31.600
They didn't have a dog, did they?
00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:32.639
They did not.
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.000
Okay, so not needed.
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:43.279
I will say too, when we had to cancel our subscription because our cat passed away, Chewy was so lovely about it, and I think they might have like sent us a letter or something.
00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:49.519
So yeah, because they sent us a card for Fade's first birthday, and he got like a little free like just $15 off.
00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:50.879
And I'm like, Chewy is great.
00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:52.080
They are.
00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:52.720
Yeah.
00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:58.960
All right, Kalea, what's the completely unnecessary purchase that has brought you an unreasonable amount of joy?
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:04.400
Okay, so I have to say I just got a Nintendo Switch OLED.
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:12.960
So the the system itself wasn't a purchase, it was a gift for my best friend who actually got it from a Nintendo store while she was working in China.
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:20.960
She upgraded, so she gave me the OLED, but I did just buy like a full game suite for it: Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros.
00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:24.640
But I'm a gamer and I definitely did not need another console.
00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:28.319
Like my partner already has a Switch, and I still have a PS4 and a PS5.
00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:32.640
And my iPad also looks like it's owned by a 12-year-old, not someone who's almost 30.
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:34.079
Like I just love games.
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:38.079
So any game that was definitely unnecessary, but I loved it.
00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:46.000
Well, I have to say, my husband and daughter also love playing video games, and they have like a new like FIFA World Cup game or something like that.
00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:53.599
And my daughter like played exceptionally well in her soccer game this past weekend, and my husband was like, Is it because of that video game?
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.920
She's like, I was thinking about it the whole time.
00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:00.160
Free free world class training.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:05.759
Yeah, we have to they say visualizing athletics can be just as helpful as practicing.
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:12.319
So you know, there's a there's a there's a cardio train going on right now where you do the subway surfers run.
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:19.920
So it's literally just like on YouTube, and you just run and jump whenever like the trains come as if you are actually the subway surfer.
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:20.720
That's awesome.
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.079
Um, yeah, I did that last week and I was tired, like it worked.
00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:29.680
So I'm really loving this renaissance of like gaming influencing our physical activity.
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:30.240
Yes.
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:31.279
All right, Kalea.
00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:32.319
Well, that is our time.
00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:36.160
Thanks for coming back and walking us through the new accessibility officer survey.
00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:36.799
Absolutely.
00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:38.400
Thank y'all always for having me.
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:39.200
You bet.
00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:48.319
And if you work in State IT, whether accessibility is already part of your day-to-day work or not, we definitely encourage you to check out the full report at nascio.org.
00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:51.440
Thanks again for listening to NASIO Voices.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:56.400
NASIO Voices is a production of the National Association of State Chief Information Officers.
00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:00.720
You can find this report and all of our other publications at nascio.org.
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:06.480
And if you enjoyed the episode, share with a colleague and subscribe wherever you listen to the podcast so you don't miss what's coming up.
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:09.519
We'll be back soon with more state IT conversations.
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:10.400
Bye.