Redefining Connection Through Comedy

NEWaukee: Today on Making New Possible, I am excited to welcome Matt Kemple, a long-time live events producer, creative consultant, and the force behind the Milwaukee comedy scene. He is a founder and executive producer of the Milwaukee Comedy Festival, co-owner of the Laughing Tap Comedy Club, and has produced hundreds, if not thousands, of comedy shows and live events across the region. Matt and I know each other from our glory days in the basement of the Grand Avenue Mall. We're going to talk a little bit about how he has helped to transform Milwaukee's comedy ecosystem, bringing in national talent alongside local voices and has given comedy and comedians a platform through his venues, through his creativity. And we'll dig into how having a fun night out becomes a cultural infrastructure. not only for the places and spaces he's built, but for the city at large. Thank you so much, Matt, for joining us today. Hey, Matt, how are you? Hi. I'm awesome. How are you? I'm so happy to have you here. I think we got to start with how did the 20th season of the Comedy Festival go? Are you alive after last week? I am. It was amazing. Honestly, it is crazy to think that it's been 20 years because I mean, I had to like go back and check for sure. I was like, is it really? Has it been 20 of these? I mean, it feels amazing. It was one of our ⁓ biggest attended festivals we've ever had. And it was definitely the biggest names that we've ever had on a roster ⁓ in one week. was a lot of fun. Well, I went to the Patent Show on Thursday and it was phenomenal. And honestly, the openers were like, almost even the patent, like he was great too, but I felt like the two openers you had, was like, God, I just love this. Like, I feel like I always end up going to your shows and then finding other artists that I had never thought of, heard of, you know what I mean, or whatever, and it's super exciting. take that as a compliment. So we had Ealing Stribling, Stribling, apologies. So he actually just applied to the Fest as a regular performer. He's very talented and... When we were going through our list of, you know, who we wanted to submit to open for Pat and Oswald, his name came up. We tried to keep it to a local person for those really big shows to give them opportunities. But honestly, like his submission and just him as a performer was phenomenal that we submitted his name. So we had him scheduled on two more shows over the weekend and he had to cancel those shows because Pat and asked him to be a part of his tour through the weekend. So, Eland actually had how cool is that? He was so apologetic too, he's like, I'm so sorry, and we're like, that's No, have to go like, shoot your shot, sorry. can't stay here, you have to go with him. So, I mean, he was so cool to work with, and just the nicest guy, and extremely funny. And then the other person you saw open was Shang Wang, who actually was at the Pabst Theater the next night, and he's almost as big a as Pat Oswald is. He's huge, he's got a great following. he just dropped in and asked if he could do five Oh even realize that. And then I was like, oh, we can go home and watch his stuff on Netflix too. Like, how cool is it that like I didn't, you know what mean? He wasn't a name that I picked up on. And then was like, how fun that we also got to see someone else that's like kind of famous. You know I mean? He is. He's a super nice guy. I ended up, I mean, just, I don't mean to brag, but we got to hang out with him after the show. And my wife and I, and Elin and a couple other people, we just, went and got some tacos and hung out and we just talked about comedy and that's, that's something that honestly in 20 years, it never gets old. absolutely love talking about just talk and shop just with professionals and you know, new comics coming up, professionals, you have the same kind of conversations. It's just like, Oh, what shows have you been doing? Oh, what's that room like? What do you like working with? You know, and then you just start riffing and you're joking back and forth. just, you just realized like. Comments are just a lot of fun that you can hang out with when you can just... Oh yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that after hours thing is just the best part too. Like it's even funnier than whatever their like shtick is. A lot of times I actually love hanging out with Tomix. Sometimes, well, it's just the shows. I mean, the shows are always the best, when you can just like, just one, just networking with people in your own country, but on another level, like truly lifelong friends. Like people that I met, you know... 20 years ago, I can still talk to and I actually asked my wife Dawn when the festival was approaching and I thought, you know, what are the moments, like I've been thinking a lot about like what I remember of the Fest and I was curious. That's like, what's your perspective? Cause she has been with me for all 20 of those years. For some reason, um, she has not wanted to leave me despite all of the ridiculous things that I do. And we were remembering like, there were times that we had like improv and sketch comedy groups stay at our house and sleep on our couch. And one time a group of them like cleaned our house. like vacuumed and they like did our dishes and stuff. they were like, thank you for wanting to sleep here. And then there was another time that this group, we got up and they were just gone. Like their stuff was still in our house, but they would just disappeared. And this was kind of before smartphones. That's how old I am and how long this is going on. That they came back like hours later with donuts and they were like, we drove everywhere and we just wanted to do. kept you guys breakfast. So it's like, honestly, sometimes the comics are just, you know, they're just the coolest people and they feel so fortunate that, you know, literally in 20 years, everybody I work with is just like a dream. They're just fun people. They're super talented. And then you do shows with them and they just, you know, they blow it out of the water. And it's just like, you get, you know, really proud of those moments. yeah, 20 years. hope you were able to revel in it. I know it's an extraordinary amount of work to put on something like that at that scale. But I'm glad to hear you've been able to do some reflecting. Maybe that's where I'll start with us today. So when you first started doing this here in Milwaukee, what did you like see, feel, think was missing from like the live comedy world? And what kind of conventions did you want to break or even like invent if it wasn't something that was already here? A couple of decades ago when you started this. You know, that question is actually really valid because when I first came to town, there were three comedy clubs operating and they, some of them closed almost immediately a couple of years after I was here. And I didn't think much of it, but I did not find the comedy scene very welcoming at all. ⁓ there was really no local standup scene. was maybe one open mic. Now there's an open mic every night. ⁓ sometimes. And, um, but there would be maybe one open mic. Sometimes it would be like once every couple of weeks, once a month, something like that. was very rare. And the majority of comments that were getting booked in the city were from out of town. So the comedy clubs were not booking local openers at all, but they were booking from Chicago. And I, I had witnessed them. When I was fairly new to town, a couple years into this, I went to an open mic and it was what's called a bringer show. And that's something that me. ethically, morally, I think is wrong in the industry. So that's a show that in order for you to get stage time, you must bring a certain number of people. it makes sense. Like an old school, like nightclub promoter. Yeah, it's a bringer show. and it wouldn't be like you got to bring a person with you is like you have to bring 10 or more people and then we'll maybe think about you'll get stage time. sucks about that is if you're new to this and nervous and don't want everybody to know like that it might be your first you don't want to like work out your your sketch like in front of people that you know like there is some anonymity potentially to a you know a random audience at an open mic night when you're just getting started. But also I mean somebody who's established that's coming through town that doesn't know anybody that is just trying to work out materials for their next special you know on the surface it's like ⁓ well you know, the club is just asking you to help promote things, but no, that's not it. They're asking you to do all the promotion. They're not doing anything to bring people in. They want all the work to be on you and they're the ones that make all the money. And I just, never agreed with that. also, never agreed with the drink minimum, mostly because in those early days I was very poor. was literally, I was a starving actor and comedy was kind of almost secondary. I was, I was doing a lot of sketching improv and I went to a show at a comedy club and I went up to the bar and I bought a beer there and was talking to the comics. And at one point the bartender was like, are you here to perform? And I was like, no, I just know some of these people. She's like, oh, you actually have to get served at the table. And I was like, oh, okay, I didn't know that. And then I didn't have no idea what a drink minimum was. I was like 24, 25 years old. And I didn't have a lot of money and spending money on two drinks was the difference between me spending that money on that or getting gas in my car. And that decision had to be made for me. I mean, that was, that was how thin the budget was. you know, I had to choose like this thing that I thought was cool versus like, could I afford Google debt? And I just, always felt slimy to me. It always felt like, is there a legitimate business that makes you spend money? You know, it's one thing to buy a ticket. It's another thing. Yeah. And I like, and of course, if you want to have two drinks, I have always loved comedy, but I remember even in my early twenties, I've never been a big drinker. And I remember kind of loathing the fact that you had to buy two cocktails because I was like, I don't want to drink that much. Like I just don't, I want to come and enjoy this, but I don't need to. And I also don't want to give my two drinks to my table of people and then they're all wasted and I'm not. at that level, you know what mean? Like, this is not my idea of a good time. I 100 % agree with you. And so to me, in the early days, that was my experience. There was no real improv or sketch comedy happening. And that was kind of where my interest was at the time from my theater background. It was, you know, doing theater like comedy. then stand up is something that I just, everybody knew that's what comedy was, was stand up. And there's these other kinds of comedy that nobody really knew about. but that it really soured me and you know, you can do some real deep Googling of me and you can find interviews where I say, I hate comedy clubs and I would never work in a comedy club. They're the worst. Oh my Said the guy that owns a comedy club. Huh? Yeah, exactly. One of the longest running comedy festivals in the country. Yeah. There was that bitterness of, I feel like there's a better way to do this. And you know, that is really what that catalyst of comedy taking off and, wow, this is something that I feel like I'm going to put a lot of energy into. The festival was this side project. We were doing sketching improv on the, ⁓ and nobody was really coming to show us because nobody knew what that was. And I realized very early on that we only had to educate the population a little bit about what comedy can be. And I didn't know what really marketing even meant, but that was a majority of what I just naturally seemed to be. good at doing was getting people in seats. the first to finally answer your question, the very first Milwaukee comedy festival that was called the sketch and improv festival. And I called it the first annual as a joke because I never thought we'd do it again. It was just a showcase of the different kinds of comedy that was happening in Milwaukee at the time. were like, let's just do a big show and throw it all together and it'll be fun. And, never would have imagined back then that it would still have It's a mistake. Well, tell me a little bit about like, you know, I see your story as like pieces that sort of compound, but you and I reflected on this. Like if someone were to look at the arc of both our careers, they'd be like, what in the, like all the random shit you guys have done? Like we just have had a lot of tangents and they made, they made sense for us to like turn left instead of right in the moment. But tell me a little bit more about like, you know, When did this go from being a side project into something you kind of like pour your life into? And at what point were you like, I need my own space for this. That actually that I'll get to that answer in a moment, but it was pivotal for me to have my own space. That was the moment that everything changed and I didn't know it was going to change that much. just knew it was a necessity. But to go back, I've had so many weird jobs. and it, and it ends up that they're all sort of producer related. So I'm from a theater background, but I worked in retail. worked in a lot of customer service jobs. I worked in a putt putt golf course. You know, I did like all kinds of weird jobs and they learned a lot of things in those careers. But mostly what I learned is like hated the way a lot of people did things. there were some companies that worked for that did illegal things ⁓ as management and I didn't know. that it was illegal until I got older and developed a sense of morals and ethics. was like, you know, I don't think that was right. And you think about it, you're like, ⁓ my gosh, there should be people in jail for the things that were done back then. And I just knew there was like this bad taste in my mouth for certain things, but I had a love for theater and I jumped in to almost everything I do full on. So the comedy came from, we started in college doing these theater games. That ended up being a lot like what comedy sports does, improv. And then that developed into writing sketches because I was an actor, I needed a script. So we would write sketches and we would, you know, build on that. And it was just like dedicating every moment of my time on putting on these little black box theater. It was really more performance art than it was a comedy show, but you know, we had to make flyers and put them up around campus and get people in and develop a show from the beginning. with nothing. And it was a couple of my ⁓ professors in college that encouraged us to do that. ⁓ hey, we have this black box theater. You should ask to use it any time you want. And we're like, should? We had no idea. And it was just that innovation and having time on my hands. So then fast forward to, I think it was a couple of years into the Comedy Fest, that first year did so well. was like, ⁓ we got to do it again. And then it started to really take over. It was like, Um, we started to have a, we did a show in the middle of the year just to raise money for the comedy fest. And it was like a little kickoff, like, you know, six months to the festival, we would do show and raise a couple of hundred bucks. And then we're like, wow, we have $200 to put a comedy festival on, you know, it's just the most bare boats possible thing you can think of. And so then that grew, we would do, you know, four shows a year. And then it was actually kind of fun because this year at the festival, we were back at comedy sports. for a couple of shows in the garage space. And I built that stage and not a lot of people know that I actually physically made that stage in that room. And I told this story that night because it had been maybe 17 years ago I did this, but I hated what they had in there. Again, it's just, I think that's my motivation is I'm just annoyed by other people, other people decisions. They had these coral risers, like the kind of risers like a church basement would have. Oh, sure. Yeah. frame, with the carpet on them, you know? And that was the stage in that little garage space. And every time you would do a show and you would step onto that stage, you would make this loud metal noise. it just was like a bad, I was just like, already thinking like a producer in a production side of things. I was like, how do you fix? know. So I went to them and I said, Hey, can I build a stage? I've done it before. I'd actually built a couple of stages for various things. And so I sort of knew what I was doing. and, ⁓ so in exchange for building the stage, they let me use it, ⁓ for four shows, ⁓ in that year. And so what I did was I put four different comedy shows on. were sort of variety shows. was like some improvs and sketch. we, ⁓ you know, and we did a couple of crazy, you know, things like that with stand up and such. so those four shows ended up raising enough money to. start this entire thing. So that's how Milwaukee Comedy LLC as a company actually started was in that moment. I built that stage and then all of a sudden we had this revenue stream and no overhead. And I had never run a business before other than like a theater production. know, if you could consider on a project basis, I had run projects, but I'd never run a business. And here's the crazy thing. You can just start a business. Nobody will stop you as long as you fill the paperwork out. You don't have to be good at it. You don't have to know what you're doing. They won't let you. And that is what I did. Nobody said you can't do it. So I started just making comedy and it was those first four shows that really started what ended up being before the comedy club opened was through, grew from those four shows a year to 15 to 20 shows a month. was what we were doing in 2018, 2019, right before we opened the club. sort of skipping over a couple of years, but the comedy clubs that closed around 2017, 2018, they were all shutting down. My personal opinion is because of an outdated business bottle of two drink measurements and overpriced everything. just don't, that's the right way to do it. So those clubs literally shut down. was no club scene and there was no comedy scene really happening except for all these little side shows. So. We were doing shows on Thursdays, Tuesdays, you name it, just not the weekends, because it was so hard to get people to come out the weekends. Clubs closed, all of a sudden people are itching to go out on the weekend. So we shifted all of our show schedules to Friday, Saturdays, and we did different venues every week. So, end of 2018, 2019, we're doing 20 shows a month, basically doing a club schedule of shows where it was, most of them were like Friday, Saturdays, sometimes we even had a late show Saturdays, so would be three shows in a week. Um, and it got to the point where we were like, we should, we should have a space for this. This is really important. We should have our own space for it. Yeah. Yeah. And previous to that, you know, we were in the basement of the Grand Avenue mall, an amazing place to love and hate. And, um, the underground celebrities filled that void as far as comedy for a little while, but we were doing a lot of theaters out there. I mean, it too big, I feel like. There's just, there's a lot going on that there wasn't. really enough room to just do comedy because, you know, that space is being used for so many other things. So in, ⁓ 20 end of 2019, we have the very smart idea that in 2020 we would keep the UC open as an arts thing and we would open a dedicated club to lack of chapter. And we did that for seven weeks. Sorry, I gave you 20 years of information. I guess that was 15 years of information in 10 minutes. So Well, yeah, I want to get to the like laughing tab. No, that was a perfect perfect segue. think I think I guess maybe ask let me ask you this like I agree with you that like anyone can start a business and the sort of like freedom and also fear that comes in like realizing that once you do it is really curious I always perceived what you were doing less from the lens of like entrepreneurship. And maybe this is because of my own, like if it took me a long time to sort of like self identify as an entrepreneur, that was a term that felt like it wasn't for me before, I don't know, other people that was not me. And I think it's cause I had no business plan. You know what I mean? was like, Oh, this is kind of like, Milwaukee, Milwaukee always happens to me. That was like my self perception. wasn't like something I was driving for. And so I feel like I see that in parallel with your story. But I'm curious, like, you know, it's always sort of considered this, like, even you're saying like, we have $200, we could make a whole festival. Like, it's a low budget. whole world is ours. You know what mean? Entertainment. Tell me more about your ethos around, like, elevating that and treating it more like cultural work or how it has helped to, like, build cultural infrastructure in the city. Like, I hear you saying you had a market because all the other clubs were closed. That makes sense. In some ways, you were like the right time, right place. We're going to just skip that COVID pause. in between. accomplished was just by accident. Like it really was like, wow, this really works out. I've always thought of the two of us as cultural workers first. You know what mean? And so I'm wondering, A, do you self-identify that way? And B, did you use that frame at all when thinking about like, all right, I'm just going to... read the comics better and I'm going to not charge guests like inordinate prices for a Miller Lite. You know what mean? In all of that. was, I'll approach your question this way. There were several milestones for me that made me realize I was a business owner that made me realize that what I was doing was, you know, pretty serious. And I, I joke about that. That's my common phrase, comedy is serious business. But it was like that moment I mentioned before where I'm like, Oh, I'm This is what I do now. Like I run a business. really, literally was a, ⁓ you know what we need to be violent taxes appropriately. need to be filing paperwork with the city. We need to make sure that this thing I love can keep going. So it's interesting because I feel like I approach business the exact opposite ways. A lot of people has always been art first. It's always been creativity first. And then it, it ended up being, ⁓ this, this thing works. So, you know, even that you see was that way, even though that wasn't intentional endeavor, ⁓ it didn't become, you know, a hub for comedy right away. It was a couple of years, you know, it was a mess for a little while there. And then all of a sudden you sort of get a rhythm for what you're doing. You figure it out, you know, it's a, it's a brand new thing. Even though a million people have run venues before, nobody's run a venue exactly like that in that space in this way. So it's a learning experience and I really approach what I do as a living, you know, very seriously, but I am open-minded and I want to learn. And 20 years of the Comedy Fest and I learned, you know, so much this year in such a positive way. And it's not even one thing where I can say, well, here's 10 things that I learned this year. It's not that simple. It's just, you you have these revelations. ⁓ We have a very specific way that we do the submission process. And last year, You know, was printing, still printing out these forms that we then digitized. And we were just like, why are we doing this? We should just go digital. And it was just like your brain explodes because you're like, what an easy thing that we can do that we should have done fricking 10 years ago. You know, it would have been so easy to make up. So, you know, I think what my approach is the art comes first, but I'm always, I'm always open to. make things the best that they can. And some of that comes from failure. There were a lot of years of the comedy festival that I feel like those early years, like before year 10, there were several years. Let's, I'm just going to throw this out. Not that these are the exact times, but like say year four through seven, four through eight, you could take any of those shows and mix them up and throw them against the wall and you would get the same. all they, what you didn't change a lot. It was easy to go into autopilot. and just be like, cool, we're running a festival. And then you start to realize, wow, this just feels stale or it's not as fun or it just wasn't challenging. And I think that's really what it was is it just wasn't challenging enough for me. And so you approach it like, okay, well, how do we make this art on ourselves almost is sort of the way you think of it. So you start figuring out, okay, well, maybe the goal is to do a bigger show. Maybe it's about working in other acts or trying to expand. At the time we were probably, I don't know. It's tough to say because that is a blur back then. But I know looking back, it just felt very stale. Not that it wasn't a big festival. I know our customers enjoyed it. I know people laughed. The Florida's had a good time. But to me it was, just, it could be so much more. No, it needed to be iterated on. I think that's where I feel like. you know, that sense of like the art or the creativity first is your, believe you that that's your like first bend because you can instinctively know that like, if we don't iterate on this, it's gonna die because culture morphs, you know what I mean? Like even when you hit it out of the park, that's a representation of that moment and what people needed in that moment. You can't redo it over and over and over. And we find that a lot with our It's an interesting tension we have with some of our long-term clients at New Waukee who turn to us wanting us to help them like create some new moment in time that, you know what mean, really activates a crowd of people. And the instinct is like, ⁓ what we did in 2025 worked. Let's rinse and repeat for 2026. Having to sort of push the envelope to say like, it did work and that was great, but we're going to have to like come up with something new. in order to sustain that audience engagement, because people move on. It's no longer relevant. It's no longer interesting. There's just too many other distractions that are going to keep people from caring, let alone showing up. There's a tension in that when it comes to the business model, because it would be very easy. to be business savvy and say, certainly just let's resign the contract and rinse and repeat. You know what mean? Like we already have all the production docs, you know, like they're set. We can just pull a dust them off and do them again. But I feel like it's one of the larger things I have found is complicated and sustaining with our team's creativity. Like they're a bunch of people who want, what's the next thing? They're looking, you know I mean? You know what mean? So how do we find that balance? And obviously like, you know, gently push, nudge, pull, you know, our clients towards like, okay, but in 2026, it's gonna need to look a little bit different. I think, mean, 2020 changed everything. And what I've found in my industry, I'm sure you can relate, is each year since has been a master's course on your demographics changing. your strategies that work once worked no longer work the next day. that used to happen in that first 15 years of my career, you would see this sort of rhythm. It would be every few years, ⁓ we gotta pivot a little bit, we gotta change because that message isn't working anymore. And it's easy to get stale when things are working. ⁓ just do the same thing, why change it? It's work. It's selling tickets, it's whatever. And so you're making widgets, whatever your world is. And then 2020 came and now every single year, if not every six months, every week, something is different and you have to pivot. ⁓ Well, we didn't prep for this, but I'd like to unpack that a little bit with you. What have you learned or noticed about audience cultivation? Or what is something that you've had to do brand new or different this year, even compared to last year? ⁓ my gosh. I feel like this year was ⁓ far different. From a ticket is standpoint, we're noticing like people just don't want to buy tickets in advance. get people that are a fan of a larger name comment, and you're going to get a burst of ticket sales right away, which is very common and has happened forever. But then you will have a dead stop, dead stop for months. And then. you will all of a sudden things will pick up. And what we have. my God, the anxiety of that in between where you're like freaking out. You see all this gray, I noticed this week, it's a lot more than it was a couple of weeks ago. And with the Comedy Fest, it's a great litmus test of that because it does a yearly event and we can take that data and exactly overlap that and look and see that graph. Not that I'm that organized, but in my brain we can do that. So you have this long period of time where nobody is buying tickets and then boom, start buying tickets again. So we've experimented several ways with that, where we have continued that marketing across that gap. have not marketed in that dip and then ⁓ also marketed dip market, you know, try different strategies and you'll see it's the same ticket buying experience for us. doesn't seem to matter. It doesn't matter. The consumer is going to do what the consumer is going to do. And the hook is frustrating. It's terrifying. And yeah, I lose a lot of sleep over it. Let me tell you, I lose a lot of sleep. Well, let me try to think of that. That's in parallel for us, you know, because we do what we do so many different types of production. So it's hard. It's hard to. And we don't always have ticketed stuff. Most of our clients want us to build something that's open and free to the public. But I think you're I think you're right that we do have a big burst right out the gate. And then we do have a lot of people sign up in those last 24 hours, but I will tell you, like, it's, different with free events. would say before COVID, we probably had like an 80 % like attendance rate. So if hundred people signed up, 80 would show up and we had, we would, you know, budget for that being for that over subscribe RSVPs, you know I mean? By 20 % knowing that we were going to lose that. Um, since COVID. It's like 35, maybe 40 % of people who sign up. it's mostly the people that sign up, even if there's a big push when it launches, it's mostly people who've signed up in those last 72 hours that actually come. To me, it's FOMO from the beginning. is fear of missing out. that is how my brain is able to explain those ticket sales. Okay, let me ask you something psycho, because I have not been brave enough to try it. have you experimented at all with only releasing it like with a week's notice? It's terrifying. Well, we have and I'll admit this to you in the entire world of podcasts. So don't tell everybody, but ⁓ there have been times we've just made mistakes and one of our remote shows, we just didn't get tickets out very soon. And it doesn't help. I'll say that where you only have a week or two of, for example, in my industry, this is specific, but here's the way that I would break it down. is something like Patton Oswalt, he's got a lot of fans. And that's what we really saw. We were getting daily ticket counts from the Pabst Theater, just they send those to us automatically. ⁓ there was a huge, know, hundreds of tickets sold right away in just those first couple of days. And even just the first 48 hours of those tickets being sold. Those are the real fans, okay? Those are the ones that don't care what's going on, I'm going to that show. They're going, yeah. They're going. They've made that decision. Then you have that low. And I mean, it surprised me that I thought it was just us because I was really seeing that. again, we've been, you know, one thing you really have to be careful of, especially in our industry, is you can't over advertise, you know, we can't put hundreds of dollars into that dip of ticket sales and not sell any, and then not make that several hundred dollars back on that because of the margins of we, know, especially with much larger shows in our industry, we're giving. a percentage of those ticket sales directly to the comments. And the more famous you are, the higher that percentage is. know, we've done so many shows that were more than 80 % of those ticket sales going to one person. That was not us. And so by over-advertising, can really, you can lose on a sold out show. So that's it's insane. But that's why we experimented with all those little different ways. Okay. Well, we need, like you said, we need to know the answer. ⁓ so then I think it makes complete sense for what you're saying. And especially, think in your world, it might be more like a networking event or a conference or something that's industry specific. Or beneficial, you know, people come to us cause they just need to laugh and you know, they might not come because they can get that somewhere else. But if you're doing an industry specific conversation and they want to learn about that, they might need to know, okay. I don't know if I can do that, but I would like to go. then it's like, ⁓ cool. Hey. you know, city and HR, you want to come with me to the event or whatever it might be. So I think that's what's happening is you get the, absolutely must be there for this. Nothing else is going to change my mind. And then you get that dip and then you get to people that are like, ⁓ this is coming up. ⁓ you know what? Nothing cooler is happening. We're going to go. And it's heartbreaking to me that you have to sell your to that way. ⁓ emotionally and mentally resilient to like make it through the dip. Cause I still find myself like up at two o'clock in the morning. I'm a couple years shy of you. We're coming into our 17th year, but I have not figured out how to self-regulate during the dip. So one, I think the most important thing that I have learned, cause it is a skill to learn, is having confidence in your thoughts. If you really believe in what you are doing and you know that it's going to accomplish what you want it to accomplish, it's, it's, it's the burn off just a little bit knowing, well, we can hope that it's going to pick up. And because it's something that I believe in and does that really sell tickets to help me sleep at night? I'm not really sure. ⁓ but, ⁓ it does bring my anxiety level down a little bit. And also in. My industry specifically, it's definitely a game of numbers. There's some shows that just aren't going to sell no matter what you do. Even if you have confidence in that show, you know, I mean, the comedy special is a great example. This weekend, it was our biggest year ever. And that same weekend, you know, there were 10 major things going on and not, and not just generally like in the comedy scene, you know, there were shows at the highlights theater. There were, there were multiple shows at the Pabst theater all weekend and a bunch of other places that that Comedy Fest was really kind of like a medium tier event that weekend. So we were competing not just with that. There's things like Plano Fest, there's all these other like fall festivals that never existed a few years ago. And now, ⁓ you know, at the time in 2020, we're kind of forced to move the timeline of the Comedy Fest to fall from August. And it was a great decision. I still stand by that decision. But it's gotten just as hard to... sell tickets to it as it was when it was in August. ⁓ So yeah, mean, I guess the short answer is you're never, it's never going to be easy. I mean, if it is, then you overlook something I think, or you have just, you need to write a book and sell a million copies and tell everybody. Yeah, exactly. Well, let me ask you one more question I've been playing with as a theory. And I don't know that it's as relevant, but maybe it is. I've been having this idea that post-COVID, the more active audiences are actually way more niche. So we'll have people come to us and that like we're doing a harvest festival this weekend. And it's like open for everyone. You know what mean? And I have, and the numbers on it look great. And I'm sure it will be, you know, as long as the weather holds out, I'm sure it'll be great. But you know, I, I have a lot of fear around these like, let's do something that anyone can go to. Cause I think it means that no one knows it should be theirs. And it, know, once in a while, depending on what it is, you can get a dense crowd of whatever particular nerds you're going after. But the niche stuff means that inherently it might be a smaller audience. But if it's a smaller audience that's the right audience, isn't that better than random passerbys who aren't going to care about whatever it is being put on? Is there something in that that resonates for you? Yeah, that is exactly what the comedy scene is like. And it's so interesting because it is a really positive thing, but it's frustrating because you can see it as a negative when, when tickets are involved. So you, there used to be back in the eighties, let's say maybe five major, huge touring cops and those, that was the comedy that was the seat. And there were only one or two that were kind of political or kind of this way. And now if you. thing very specifically, like this type of joke, not even like, like political humor because you can like political humor, which in this day and age can be terrifying because you might pick the wrong one. ⁓ there could be a thousand different kinds of political time right now. No joke, no pun intended, no joke. There could be a thousand different kinds of set up punchline, you know, there's a thousand different ways you can tell us a funny story. And so. you go from five comets that are the only ones that are able to create this audience to the point that you can look up any combination of comedy buzzwords that you want and you will find probably multiple examples of somebody telling those kinds of jokes. And so all of a sudden comedy has become so polarized and you know, it's interesting because there are people that'll say, ⁓ I just don't like those kinds of comments. And we try to approach shows a little bit more neutrally. We're not trying to book specifically political comics that might alienate certain groups. We're not trying to specifically book, you know, whatever. We're trying to, you know, create a range so that you come to a show, you might see three or four different comics and you're like, oh, I liked them all, but I really liked this like that. Oh, I realized this is the kind of comedy I like because that's I gravitated towards at the show. So it's fascinating to see that it is so niche. And there are some very famous comics that I've worked with that nobody has ever heard of. And then there's people on TikTok that have millions and millions of followers. And I have no idea who they are. It's my job to help who all these people are. There's so many, couldn't, you can't possibly know who every single person is. So it has turned into a data game where the data of the demographics of people selling your information, you know, is so important to all these corporations in the world that we live in. Your data is sold and is out there in a million different places, whether you like it or not. And comedy is at that point where you need that data. You need to know what zip code people are in. You need to know where, you know, ⁓ people from Schomburg, Illinois are coming to our shows on these weeks. And people from Cedarburg or Mequon are coming to our shows on these weeks. And they're not coming to the same week. That would say something. It's really, I mean, As a producer, just looking at the data, is fascinating, but at the same time, there are now 10 different jobs you have to do. You just like you used to just hire a website person. used to just hire a marketing person. All you needed to do was have a digital presence. They did the website. I had a job marketing for a theater company where I did the website. I made the social media accounts because they didn't really have any. And I wrote the newsletters, you know, it just one person job. And now they have No, no, you have specialists in each of those areas. Yeah. Yep. And yeah, you can have a whole department that's just the website. You can have a whole department just on the SEO of that website. ⁓ great. Yeah. And that's what comedy is as well. So I may make you look into your crystal ball here. Like, what's the future of this? Like, where's it going? You know, with Streaming virtual hybrid formats? Are you bullish on only IRL? Or if you don't know where the future of the industry is going, where is the future of the laughing tap going? Well, I can tell you that it's going to be going to 761 North Jefferson Street. I can at least say that much ⁓ because we announced that just this last week. But I think about that all the time. Don't think about that in your industry and you're a decision maker that you're going to fail in your industry. It doesn't mean you're going to know what the answers are, but I think, again, I think what 2020 taught me more than anything was you got to know how to do it. You must know what to do if everything is gone tomorrow and you want to do this. I think I'm seeing a lot of high-grade shows that never really died. since COVID, are a lot, especially with really big names, they might stream that show where you could get a ticket to something happening in LA and there's a small audience in LA, but really millions of people are watching that. kind of thing is happening more and more. For me though, it might be the end of what I do as a living, but I think in real life is extremely important because And just like go into the movies, mean, it's unfortunate how much of a dying industry go into the movie theater is and comedy clubs and other live entertainment are follow. But seeing a movie with a whole bunch of people is a way different experience than watching it. It's a completely different experience. Yeah. Just getting, you know, laughing with people to me is so important. And that is the number one thing that I like to say is I do this because I want to bring people into a room together for joy. because there's way too many reasons to hate. There's way too many reasons to be angry and scared. And I want people to be in a room because they're happy, because they want to laugh together. And it feels amazing to be in a room and that reverberating laughter, it hits my soul. It hits me, you know, the very core of who I am as a human being. And, um, It's been difficult because our laughing tab location had been closed for several months while we're moving to this new spot. And it was very difficult for me personally to deal with not laughing with a group of people. You know, I'm a workaholic and all of a sudden it screeches to a stop and I have to keep myself busy with other things. It was, it was reminiscent of the pandemic, except this time it was actually slightly longer than the pandemic. ⁓ And it was on purpose, which was almost more of a challenge for me to know, like seeing it looming ahead of me, Hey, you're going to have three months with, you know, at least without this kind of environment. Yeah. So, I mean, to me, I think it is so important for people to get together, even if it's 10 people, 20 people, 30 people, know, toll houses are way more fun, but to have a room full of people that can laugh together and realize. Hey, life can be funny and you know, there's a positivity in the world that we should really, you know, we can share together. love that. Yes, I agree. I agree. I mean, I'm bullish on it in person too, obviously for very selfish reasons with New Waukee. But I think the other thing I've seen post pandemic is people are more grateful to be convened. Like, yes, they're annoying about RSVPing and then actually showing up. But when they actually like put pants on and go. Yeah. Yeah. and attend, they're so happy to be together. And I think it's a reaction to just our like digital lives. You know what mean? Like actually being in that reverberation to energy you're describing is unlike anything else. And it like connects us to our humanity. ⁓ And so, yeah, I think we're full steam ahead as well. And I love your note about joy. I am just, just this morning I was saying to our team, want joy to be our theme of next year. Like. I want that to be like our touchstone for anything we create, all the productions we put on, like how is it that we're creating more joy in the world? So I'm taking that as a sign from the universe that that's the right, that's the right ⁓ orientation for us. It's, it's, has always been funny to me on the marketing side that literally companies spend billions and billions and billions of dollars a year to convince you that they are selling. And it's so funny to me, that's literally what I sell and it feels tougher than selling. ⁓ kid in Coca-Cola or, you know, McDonald's or something like that. It's like, it's, takes so much effort to convince people, but at the same time, I think, you know, there is a lot to choose from and people get joy out of a lot of things. And, know, there's a lot of anxiety that people have for going out in public for lots of different reasons. And that I understand too. And I hope that my hope for the future is people will take a moment and realize how important it is. to get that real human interaction with, know, even if it's not coming to my shows, even if it's just getting together with friends and realizing that, hey, it's actually, you know, it means something for us to get together, laugh, you know, around dinner or, you know, tell stories and connect with one another in this positive way. To me, that's, you know, what life is about. much. All right, Matt. Well, thank you so much for coming on this episode of Making New Possible. You continue to make new things possible. And so I am your consummate cheerleader and biggest fan. Thank you so much for having me and right back at you like I feel very inspired by what you and Milwaukee do and it's exciting that we get to talk about you know the weird crazy fun stuff that we get to do for a living. Not everybody gets to do that and it's exciting. So thank you for letting me be a part of it. I love talking about it. Can't shut up about it.