Brett Johnson [00:00:00]:
We are Looking Forward Our Way from Studio C in the 511 Studios in the Brewery District just south of downtown Columbus, Ohio. Hi. This is Brett. Carol and I are in the studio with our guests coming to us remotely. Let's first welcome Doctor Phyllis Cummins. Phyllis is a senior research scholar at the Scripps Gerontology Center at my alma mater, Miami University of Ohio. Phyllis is also a fellow for the Gerontological Society of America. Our second guest is Doctor Phillip Taylor, a professor at the Institute of Employment Research at the University of Warwick in Coventry, England.
Brett Johnson [00:00:41]:
Phillip is also a fellow for the Gerontological Society of America and the associate editor of Aging and Society as well as the governor of the aging workforce interest group for the Gerontological Society of America. Welcome to you both. Fine.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:00:59]:
Thanks for having us.
Carol Ventresca [00:01:01]:
Thank you both so much for being with us today. Brett and I have had a lot of opportunities to advocate for older adults and demonstrate the value that they bring to an employer. But today, we welcome our 2 guests who are both experts in workforce development and the impact of aging. We're going to dive into this research, which has been conducted not only in the United States, but also in England and Australia. But first, we want to have our guests introduce themselves and provide us with some of their background in workforce development. Phillip, maybe you could start us off.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:01:38]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So I began researching issues of older workers, at the end of 19 eighties. If anybody can remember the 1980s, I was researching older workers back then. And this is a really interesting subject, I think, because we could talk at length about the history of older workers and the issue of older workers. And the past is a fascinating one, because a lot of the discussions that we're having today Way were having 40 years ago, on this topic. And I think I think that's an important lesson. What Way we know about the past of older workers and how that frames our thinking about what to do today about this issue.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:02:28]:
And a lot of the debates we're having today are very familiar to me because we were having the same debates in the 19 eighties. So it's great to be here talking about this with you today.
Carol Ventresca [00:02:39]:
Thank you. Phyllis, how about you?
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:02:41]:
Well, I first became, Ventresca in the topic of older workers when I was working on my dissertation at Miami University. I'm an older worker myself and, studying gerontology and becoming a researcher at Scripts Gerontology Center is a second career for me. But I was working on my dissertation, during toward the tail end of the great recession, And I became very interested in the impacts of that recession on older workers because they tended to be unemployed for longer periods of time, and it became difficult for them to reenter the workforce and a lot of it needed additional training. So during the past 10 years, as a Scripps researcher, my real interest has been in older workers, their place in the workplace, and the importance of ongoing trading so that they can remain employed if they so desire.
Brett Johnson [00:03:40]:
There are an incredible number of issues at stake in this field of research. Today, we're going to hone in on 2 major challenges. 1, how does an employer ensure candidates have an equal opportunity to gain employment and ensure every company stakeholder is trained to create a culture of fair recruiting, hiring, and retention. And secondly, why employers should ensure their workforce is properly trained, focusing on their abilities and learning capacity creating a more efficient and effective company. Phillip, we should start with an understanding of the role older adults play in a workforce. Also, why are so many retirees looking to return to paid employment?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:04:23]:
That's a really good question, Brett. And it it the issues are, multifaceted around this. We have an aging society and in Australia, in the UK, in the USA, Japan, Europe, our societies are aging. And it's long been recognized that people will need to work for longer in order that governments are concerned about this through through Social Security. They don't want to be paying out Social Security to people earning an increasingly aging population. They want us to work. And that's driven a lot of thinking amongst policymakers internationally about this issue. The rising cost of social welfare, and governments want to minimize that cost.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:05:26]:
Hey, let's get all the workers. Let's get all the people to work for as long as possible. And that frankly, has driven much thinking in this space. But on top of that, it's increasingly recognized that productive activities, active aging, if you will, is talked about a lot, that's good for us. We people want to participate in society, they feel a need to participate in society. So these issues, these these issues have aligned beautifully in the last few decades. So governments want us to work for longer, and we want to work for a longer longer as well, because we know that it's good for us doing something is good for us. So we know as well at the moment, that many employers are struggling to find labor.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:06:26]:
And again, this is an international problem. And Way, there's a pool of potential workers out there who have valuable skills and capabilities that they can deploy, and they want to work. And so there's a there's potentially a good marriage there between older people and businesses that are crying out for labor. This is isn't just an an issue in the US. It's it's an international problem. This problem of shortfalls in labor supply as we call it.
Brett Johnson [00:07:00]:
That's interesting that you pull in the in international. I'm glad you're here to to speak to that because we can only look at ourselves here in the US that it it's actually an international problem, that that's that's really interesting.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:07:13]:
Japan. If you think about Japan, South Korea, very age societies, and this huge anxiety about what they're going to do about those aging populations. Because one thing they don't do in Japan and Korea is migration. And migrations been something of a savior for the, the UK and also, the USA and continental Europe. But Japan and South Korea, don't do immigration in the same way that we do. So they've got to do much more with less. And that's causing challenges in those those countries.
Carol Ventresca [00:07:58]:
Interesting. Thank you. Thank you for that. One of the things that, I'm very interested in is the notion of how employers combat ageism in their organization. We've heard stories of age discrimination in hiring and retention practices. I often say that ageism is the only ism that seems to be allowed, and we that people get away with here. It seems that it's rampant. Employers consistently discuss their commitment to equity and fairness, but we don't often see that in the hiring process.
Carol Ventresca [00:08:32]:
What should employers be looking for in their organization to make sure they are actually combating ageism?
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:08:39]:
Merrill, thanks for the question. And you're right. It's from both a hiring perspective and then a retention, in the in the workplace. And it's I think it's important that, that it comes from the top down that ageism is not acceptable. But senior management conveys to their hiring manager and all the way down to managers that that ageism in the workplace is not acceptable. Because as Phillip mentioned, there are worker shortages now, so we need workers of all ages to be available. And so to combat ageism in the workplace, it's important that hiring managers really understand age discrimination laws. Some employers may be afraid to interview older adults because if the older adult is not hired, they might face, litigation.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:09:35]:
But they can one one way to get around that is by having age blind, review of resumes, applications and resumes. And then in job postings, be careful employers need to be careful that they don't have ageist language in their job postings, such as digital natives only need apply. There's been I've read of several examples of employers actually putting that in job postings. There's also been research that, when, say, someone sent in a 100 resumes and that it was obvious that that those that were obviously older workers didn't get a callback, whereas others did get a callback. So just the whole the whole idea of trying to age blind reviewing applications and resumes. But it's also important for older adults seeking new employment to take take some responsibility in their job seeking efforts. And I hear stories about resumes filled with errors, and the older adult not taking time to really do a thoughtful and careful review of the resumes, and then they blame they blame their age rather than their, their errors in their resume on on why they aren't hired. And some adults also have self imposed, attitudes of self imposed ageism that, oh, they won't hire me.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:11:09]:
So they go into an interview with the attitude that attitude. So, it's sort it's what happens then. So it's it's important when, say, an older adult applies for a job that they make sure that they have the skills that the employer's looking for. And if they don't have those skills, to to get some training so they do have the skills, because I think it's an indication to an employer that if it's I think they call it signaling. Like, if if I can show that I've learned new skills, that is important to an employer in hiring because it's an indication that they can learn and be productive. But training in the workplace is training about ageism in the workplace is also important so that, and not Forward all employees, not just hiring managers or managers because just ageist language, like calling somebody honey or dear. That doesn't work well. I had a doctor that I went to once, and she said to me, oh, you're 70 years young.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:12:19]:
And this is a doctor, and I'm thinking, does she really know that that's an ageist thing to say? But, anyway, I think just education about ageist language and offering, older workers the same opportunities for promotion and professional development is important. There's been some research that older adults just aren't given the same training opportunities, and I think we'll probably discuss that later. But I think it's important that older adults take advantage before they're hired of upskilling.
Carol Ventresca [00:12:53]:
I I was, talking to a group of college students the other day, and one of the tips that I gave them, I actually just realized I could give to my older adult job seekers, and that is, when someone offers you an opportunity, don't say no. You say yes, take a breath, and figure it out.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:13:13]:
Yeah. I think well, Phillip, thank you, and, I think, what Phillip says it is great. I I wanted to add to it a couple of things. Just an example of ageism and action. I did a project, in Australia recently, and we were looking at, ageism in universities. And I won't name the university. It would be indelicate. But, they offered an early retirement scheme, to workers aged 50.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:13:51]:
So the university assumed that people were over the hill at the age of 50, which I thought was truly remarkable. And, Phyllis mentioned signaling, and and we wrote about what what that the existence of that scheme signaled to workers who are aged in their 40s. It signaled that you are nearly old. So watch Our, because quite soon, you will be old, you'll be 50. And that wasn't that that Way, one example. But there are there are, there were there were others that that had schemes targeting older workers in their 50s. So not not not as young as 50, but maybe 55. But it's out there.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:14:42]:
And it's real. I would Way, though, that I often think we need to be quite careful in comes in arguing the ageism is lurking behind every tree. Because I'm not always so convinced of that. And I, I would say going on from what Phyllis said that the older workers sometimes internalize ageism, I'm too old to train, or I'm too old to get a job, no one would hire me. And I'd say here that we often will single out employers particular attention here, you know, you're being ageist. But I would plead some caution, I think in advocacy and also in government policy, I've observed a tendency towards ageism as well. So I think the problem is, if anything, I think we should characterize it as being a societal problem. And not just say it's you employers that are at fault.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:15:48]:
I think there's a bigger picture here, as as society about how how we talk about older workers, what the, you know, the public discourse is around around aging, if that if that makes sense. So I think, you know, I see I see ageist advocacy, a well meaning advocacy on targeting older people, but advocacy that is ageist. And so I think it's something that we all need to reflect upon, and it's not just a problem of employers, if that makes sense.
Carol Ventresca [00:16:24]:
Absolutely. I I, gave a presentation to a group of approximately a 100 people, and this gentleman at the end got up and said he was the perfect candidate for the Johnson he didn't get it because he was too old. So my question to him was, do you know who got the job? And he said no. And I said, so you have no clue as to that possibly that person is one day older than you. Way we we make assumptions based on what we hear or what we think we are hearing from other folks. If it's in an interview, if you are employed by by someone and you're having conversations with peers or other managers or, supervisors that you you have to carefully listen and make sure you're not assuming there is an ism in that conversation. Don't don't assume ahead of time.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:17:24]:
Sorry, Carol. I interrupted you. I I if come back on that because I think it's a really good point. I I I'm reminisced I I am reminded of a report from Stanford Longevity Center, that a line sticks with me from this report referring to the wisdom of older people and the energy of youth. And I thought, well, what about the wisdom of younger people and the energy of older people? And I thought that this this this report, drawing directly from age stereotypes. And I was frankly astonished. And I, you know, and I think messaging is really important. And so that's my point, let's not just view this as old employers being the problem.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:18:16]:
Because I think it's more of a societal thing and how we talk about aging. Another quick point, if I may. Ageism is a really interesting topic and age discrimination is did you know that in Australia and also in European countries, our age discrimination legislation can apply to any age, not just as with the ADEA Our 40. So a young person can claim age discrimination too. So I think it is worth reflecting upon whether we shouldn't open out the discussion a little bit to so involve younger people in a conversation about ageism because when I've spoken at events about ageism and talked about ageism and young people with young people present, they all come up to me and say, Yes, I'm really pleased you've spoken about this because no one talks about it. We experience it too. And I think involving young people in in the dialogue around ageism is really powerful.
Carol Ventresca [00:19:21]:
That that's wonderful. Thank you so much for that message because we hear from young people often that you're not listening to me. You're not taking what I say seriously because I'm young. Great. Great. That's wonderful. Thank you so much.
Brett Johnson [00:19:35]:
Yeah. So, you know, Phillip, mature job candidates often look for positions that are different than they previously held. They may not wanna manage staff anymore. Or they prefer fewer hours or maybe flexible schedules. Have employers successfully recruited and retained older workers through innovative programs such as targeted benefits packages to more closely meet those specific needs?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:20:00]:
No. The the answer is absolutely. I mean with employers internationally come to mind, redesign of jobs, putting in health service, particular health services for workers to meet to meet their changing needs, and so on. Flexible deployment options, flexible retirement options. So you could you could say part time retire, you could gradually retire. So there are a whole there are lots of mechanisms that are being deployed internationally by by businesses in this space. I would come back back to what you Way. I think that there are assumptions about what older people older people need.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:20:49]:
And it's a discussion we should have today is what's an older worker? Because I think that's an interesting question in itself. At what point do you become old? But I think that for me, it's often the case though that the, for instance, with with parents returning to the world of work, in their late 50s, they might want a full time job, they may want they may be building their career at that point. And they may want to be taking on extra responsibility. So I think we should we should be wary of of of possibly veering into assumptions about what older people might Way, late, late later on in a career or at older ages. So yes, there's a lot out there, I think in terms of good workplace policy in this space. But on the other hand, I think we shouldn't necessarily assume that older workers might want to begin to retire gradually, or that they necessarily have particular needs that need to be addressed. If that makes sense, Brett.
Brett Johnson [00:22:04]:
Yeah. I was I I think maybe a good example of this is my daughter just, started a new new position. And some of the one of the perks is unlimited personal time off. But there are some caveats. Obviously, they kind of put some guardrails to it to a certain degree suggesting, you know, really only x amount of time, but it is stated that way. And then I I got to talking about that that philosophy that with a couple other business owners and and they said yeah there's been a research that you know you can offer the the the unlimited but it's never taken. So it's that okay unlimited pto it could be good for any age it comes down to if it's taken or not It's it's Way. Offer it to everybody.
Brett Johnson [00:22:45]:
You know? It may fit. It's it's a non age thing, but it's there and probably most people aren't gonna take it.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:22:55]:
Quite, quite so. And I think it's the devil is in detail of these pop And it's all very well having a policy. But if no one takes it up, it's not not much of a not much of a policy really. One interesting thing that I was reminded of was policies to encourage people to work past the age of 65 in some countries. While there seems to be interest amongst older workers in working on, Forward many workers, that age of 65 seems to be a bit of a bit of a barrier. It's changing. It's changing. But nonetheless, 65 seems to be a bit of a line for many workers.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:23:38]:
And so employers may be keen to keep them past that age. But for many workers, it does seem to be a bit of a bit of a barrier. But I think that is changing gradually. Social norms around working and retiring are adjusting. But still, people are still Looking, I'm in my early sixties. It's, it's I'm getting getting me at the time now, least in many countries. Maybe not in the USA, but in many of the countries I know.
Carol Ventresca [00:24:05]:
There there are examples of positions in which retirement is mandatory, such as pilots, commercial pilots. I think is 7 65 or 70 is the is the mandatory age, and and the pilots who have been forced to retire are bringing up issues and trying to get past it. So there's really it it's, that ageism is from both perspectives. Pushing people into retirement, forcing them into retirement, that that we need to as you said, we need to better understand the issues that are going on, not from a perspective of how old somebody is, but from a perspective of what do they want to do and what can they do and how can we accommodate everyone regardless of age, background, experience, education, whatever that may be. Is that am I interpreting this correctly?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:25:09]:
Well, I'm surprised, Carol, we haven't spoken about octogenarian presidents yet.
Carol Ventresca [00:25:14]:
Let's not. No. We don't. We it's going to be a long year in in in the US. Fellas, please.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:25:23]:
I think that it's an interesting area to to to discuss, but perhaps another podcast
Carol Ventresca [00:25:28]:
Exactly. Exactly.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:25:30]:
Yeah. I I wanted to talk a little more about flexible work because I think since the start of the pandemic, work arrangements have really changed a lot. And it it's not just older adults that might want flexible work arrangements. Some might. But you've got people with young children or that their kids are involved in sports activities. Some of the the things that have come out of the pandemic where remote work Way more common, and they can take off a couple hours during the day to go to a sporting event or a doctor's appointment, and then make it up later at night if they need to. So I think there have been, you know, quite a few benefits from the pandemic. Certainly, they're not all great, but I think work arrangements have really changed.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:26:14]:
And it's flexible work arrangements aren't important just for older adults, but for people of all ages that that have other abilities. And I think it's been good for for employers and employees that that this change has happened.
Carol Ventresca [00:26:31]:
We we have an age advocate here in Columbus who always, says and has taught us well that whatever is good for an older person is likely good for a younger person, whether that be a flexible schedule or a, a covered sheltered bus stop, what whatever that may be. But it seems that this goes really goes back to the the issue of redefining or or reevaluating job descriptions, job requirements, and job tasks. Because if a you know, if somebody is on a an assembly line, they aren't gonna get a flexible schedule. The assembly line is going to continue with or without them at their post, and if they're not there, then there's gonna be a problem on that assembly line. But if it's if it's a a position that there is flexibility in when the work happens, then flexibility in a schedule is more likely to happen also. Is that is that really what we we need to focus on, Phillip?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:27:32]:
Yeah. And just so well, on on on assembly lines, in in particular, b BMW, several years ago now, implemented an assembly line that Way staffed solely by older workers and to huge effect. And it was very, very successful. And I would say, you know, with exceptions, like fighter pilots, and things like that, I think to a large extent, age is unrelated to one's ability to do a job. There are obvious, I mean, there are always exceptions to the rule, like, like, you know, military pilots, for instance. But nonetheless, I think on the whole, we shouldn't, we should argue, we should we should advocate that age shows relatively little relationship with job performance. And I think that's a really powerful message. And it's not that older workers are better than young younger ones.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:28:32]:
It's that age really shouldn't matter and doesn't matter, in fact.
Carol Ventresca [00:28:37]:
Very true. And and going back to that assembly line, BMW had to make some changes to make that work. Correct?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:28:46]:
Yes. Yeah. But but relatively modest, relatively low cost changes.
Carol Ventresca [00:28:52]:
Exactly. Exactly.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:28:54]:
That assembly line functioned, as well as an assembly line assembly line with younger workers. And so it's relatively relatively low cost, we can affect changes in organizations that can have a dramatic impact on people's ability to work on. So these these interventions are not necessarily hugely costly. But they can have a massive impact on organizations.
Carol Ventresca [00:29:24]:
Correct. And and I know there was an assembly line change in a auto manufacturer, and I'm not sure if it was the one at BMW or another one where they literally the the only thing that really needed to to happen was that the the assembly line platform was raised. It was higher to to accommodate issues, and it it it accommodated the issues for any a worker of any age. I mean, nobody wants to stoop over in in their in their work. And so it really is a an issue of rethinking the task, evaluating the task, and how it can be more efficient, more effective, and easier or I don't wanna even use the word easier, but, better for the the worker to perform and age is not part of that decision.
Brett Johnson [00:30:14]:
Yeah. I mean
Carol Ventresca [00:30:15]:
It doesn't need to be. Abs
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:30:17]:
if if I may come in. Yeah. I mean, I I think the the it's important to consider the downstream consequences of jobs on workers. So an older worker doesn't just get a bad back suddenly at the age of 56. That bad back has been coming for many years. So if we can help if we can intervene in terms of the quality of people's jobs much earlier in a career, It can mean that a person can work for much longer. But we know the evidence is quite clear, certainly in the UK, that that, one of the big drivers of early retirement is ill health. And so if we can intervene earlier in her career, we can perhaps head off that that critical driver of people's withdrawal from the world of work.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:31:09]:
Right.
Carol Ventresca [00:31:10]:
Wonderful. Thank you very much. Phyllis, I'm gonna go ahead and and move on to our next topic, which, salary is always a very critical issue for everyone. That is a critical issue for our job candidates. How can employer ensure that they are maintaining equitable salary levels for all candidates as well as their staff. And are salary packages critical to retaining qualified staff?
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:31:39]:
Well, salary packages are important to people of all ages, across the their working lives. And they should be based on experiences and responsibilities of the employee regardless of age. In many employment situation, salaries and salary packages are public. I worked for Miami University, and, it may be a year or 2 old that people can look up what I make at Miami University. And I think that's true of all public employees. Ohio State's data were actually more current. And people talk. People have some sense for what other employees in the organization are making.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:32:22]:
They talk. And there's there's organizations such as Glassdoor where you could get some sense for Way, employees with the other employees with the same responsibilities or what their income is. So it's important that employers keep on top of what they need to pay, not just in salary, but overall packages to retain their employees, to be competitive. But it's important that someone at the same level in an organization and the same level of productivity should make roughly the same amount regardless of seniority. I know people that have been around a long time, they get pay increases, but, it should even out somewhat Our time. And if, say, an older worker or a younger worker, maybe they have the same job responsibilities, but they're not as productive. And so maybe they don't get as much of an increase in their next next review. It's important to document if they're not as productive, why they're not as productive so that so that employees employers can protect themselves because not everybody is as productive.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:33:41]:
In some cases, an older employee might prefer to have fewer responsibilities. We talked a little bit about that in flexible work arrangements. Maybe they, in the past, they've supervised a lot of people, but maybe they don't want that stress anymore on group supervising people. And they might Way a less stressful work situation. And in those situations, the older worker, would really need to understand that they're not gonna make the same as what they have previously or what what others in the organization might make that that have those additional responsibilities.
Brett Johnson [00:34:18]:
Well, employers once spend significant dollars on training, but that benefits not readily available now or just as it's lost focus. However, training access plays a major role in today's workforce. Positions and tasks are constantly changing so the skills of current employees they they must be upgraded. Job candidates walk into interviews frantic to demonstrate that they know new technologies and continue to to learn more. Phillip training programs for older workers may need to be modified to fit the learning styles that work for this mature population. Way role should employers fill in creating effective training opportunities? Have you found any successfully implemented? Are they kind of the same for younger workers and older workers? Maybe maybe there's no line of demarcation there.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:35:10]:
I there there there is good evidence that older workers' learning styles are somewhat different from young peers. There's no doubt about that. And there are, again, examples of employers that have implemented interventions targeting the skills of older workers. And I think in one sense, that in itself is really important, because there's often an assumption that you hit the age of 60. And there's no point there's no point in investing in Brett anymore. Because 60 now, Brett going to be gone in a few years. And so let's not waste the money on investing with Brett. But but but Carol is in her 20s.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:35:53]:
And Carol is going to be with us for a long period of time. So we're going to invest in Carol. And so the lots of assumptions Brett into all of this. Brett might actually be thinking, well, I'm feeling, you know, pretty, pretty, pretty fit. I can see myself being here another 10 years. So it's investing in skills alone is a good thing, I think, because often there's an assumption from employers that it's not worth doing it. Also, older workers as well, I should stress. Older workers will say, Looking, I've interviewed older workers on this topic.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:36:29]:
I'll say, Look, Phil, you know, I'm nearing the end of my career, you know, what's the point in me going back to college? And so it, it's really important to stress to older people who are looking for work that they need to be investing in their skills, and for people in work to invest in their skills over the long term. The world of work is changing. It's evolving. Things are shifting very quickly. And we all need to be keeping our skills up to date. So I think it's not just the responsibility of employers. I think they play a critical role here, but it's also the responsibility of of, workers for workers too.
Brett Johnson [00:37:15]:
I think you bring up a good point too that, there needs to be a conversation between employer employee about where are you where are you in this position? I mean are you are you happy? Are you, you know, you see yourself here Forward you're 60, you see yourself here for another 10 years? This is what we're gonna I I I just a healthy conversation about Way want you here and we get some training that's available if you feel that you want to be here or are I mean again, I they need older adult does Way to play those cards saying, no, I'm only gonna be here a couple more years but there's got to be a way to have this conversation that you are, encouraging every employee to want to stay by these opportunities that you provide.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:38:01]:
I I it's a really good point, and I I know anecdotally, employers will sometimes say, but we're reluctant to have those conversations, for fear of being accused of age discrimination. So we need to devise ways in which we can have open conversations Looking about, what can we do to keep you for longer? How can we invest? What, what are your what are your plans going forward as an employee? I I've been told by employers, you know, with greeted my comments about older workers with incredulity. They say that the people in my factory, they're done. They want to go. They don't want to stay here. And I thought to myself, yeah, if you ever asked any of them, what could be done to keep them for longer? And I suspect there's a bit of a dialogue of the deaf going on. Nobody really wants to talk about this.
Brett Johnson [00:39:01]:
Dialogue of the deaf. I love that. It
Carol Ventresca [00:39:03]:
it would seem though part of the conversation, they have to be comfortable knowing that if they say, I wanna continue to work, but I don't wanna do this. They have to be comfortable that the employer is going to say there are alternatives because I may wanna stay working in this organization, but I don't wanna work in that physical position. But could I possibly be trained to do I don't wanna say customer service, but, you know, a a a position that is not physical that they could still do. I don't know that employers have that much, flexibility themselves to create positions for an individual to stay, the funding that would go into it, that kind of thing. So it it seems like part of the policies that we are looking at on how we can help older adults also have to be to help employers come up with those alternatives.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:40:05]:
Yeah. I mean, the I I I I can give you an an immediate response. Johnson firefighting organization in Spain that I'm familiar with, implemented a scheme targeting older firefighters who were recognizing that their bodies were wearing out and they just couldn't what they used to do. So what they did with those workers, they moved them into training and mentoring roles, to huge success, they kept all of this capability, which hitherto would have disappeared. And the and it was greatly appreciated by the younger workers because they were picking up all of these skills. So there are lots of ways in which we could think imaginatively about how we deploy old workers.
Carol Ventresca [00:40:54]:
Right. I I can remember, Phyllis mentioned working in higher education, and I was in higher education for almost 30 years. When someone retired, and needless to say they couldn't wait to get out, but when they retired they took with them 30, 35, 40 years of information. It wasn't the tasks that they completed. It was who they knew on campus and how to make things happen and and how to get through the process easier and all those kinds of bits and pieces of information that were lost were huge and the organization, really never recognized that problem, and and were willing to to deal with with that. So, yes, thank you. Thank you for that. Phyllis, would you
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:41:41]:
Yeah. Carol, I think there's you brought up the what I think of is institutional knowledge, that that we have. There's also a networking component because
Carol Ventresca [00:41:52]:
Exactly.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:41:53]:
Through organizations, I met Phillip, and I have, in some of my work, I I'm involved with community colleges and recruiting them to be case study schools. And I made all those contacts through networking. And a lot of that just when I retire, that's gonna go away. There's not anyone at Miami that's really doing the same kind of work that I have done, which is unfortunate. And just I think the institutional knowledge that's lost and the networking and the importance of, me mentoring someone to really take over my work if to find somebody that's interested. And I don't know if Phillip has thoughts on that that topic. It's a little bit off track. But
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:42:38]:
I don't think it is off track, Phyllis. I don't I I would This is where there's always the devil in the detail of these conversations. Way also know of employers who want greenfield sites, They want green workforces. They don't want corporate knowledge, because for them, corporate knowledge is the past. And we don't want the past, we want the future. And certainly in conversations I've had with employers in this space, that corporate knowledge isn't valued. And this is where it gets complicated, I think, in having conversations about these issues. The, you know, it's not necessarily the case that there are already easy solutions that can be implied in all workplaces.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:43:21]:
Because I think it's it's very, very complex areas. I think we've established in Our, in our conversation over the last Our, there are lots of nuances in all of this that we need to consider. So I think corporate knowledge is valuable in certain circumstances, but not necessarily in all of them.
Carol Ventresca [00:43:44]:
Phillip, without putting you on the spot here, can you give me an example of when corporate knowledge would not be valuable?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:43:52]:
It's because employers and, Forward looking employers who want to be
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:44:00]:
creating Way
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:44:00]:
they would consider to be innovative Forward looking businesses, that are maybe high-tech, for instance. And there's a concern that older workers are of the past, and we don't want to carry that past with us. We are very, we're very forward looking. We want to be innovative, we want to be creative. And those characteristics are not necessarily associated with old workers. So all I'm saying, Carol, is I think just pleading a little bit of caution, because we might imagine that employers think that corporate knowledge is is is Brett, and it's obvious, isn't it? But not necessarily. I think for some employers, they may not value it as much as we think they ought to. So
Carol Ventresca [00:44:44]:
So the their their assumption is that corporate knowledge is old ways of doing something, not necessarily an educated look at how something has performed in the past.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:44:59]:
Yes. Absolutely. Interesting. Corporate knowledge can be seen as a drag on organizational capability. Interesting. Okay. And this comes out of the human resource management literature. So corporate knowledge is not necessarily perceived as a corporate good.
Carol Ventresca [00:45:21]:
Okay. Thank you. I I had not heard that, and that that's shocking to me. It shouldn't be, but it is. I I wanna throw one more idea in here, though, to not forget this important lesson I had. Several years ago, we had a a speaker come to Columbus and discuss older workers, and she had what at that time was an innovative idea for employers and I think particularly for larger employers that when an individual was they knew that their career was going to be coming to an end. They did want to move into something different. But as opposed to them just working their job and then suddenly gone, the employers had opportunities where they could assist this individual to hone in on what they wanted to do in their next encore career and to help them create that entity in within the larger organization in such a way that it benefited the larger organization and launched the individual into their next encore career.
Carol Ventresca [00:46:30]:
So it was sort of giving them a transition period. Has that has anything like that ever come across your desk?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:46:38]:
Yes. I mean, there's there's a lot come out of the US on bridge employment, bridge jobs in recent years. Lots of ways of of exiting the labor force in in in in lots of ways of of exiting the labor force in in in in, more flexible ways. And I it's undoubtedly the case that those kinds of programs benefit workers. There'll be a little, again, being a bit of a fly on the ointment in the conversation, just a bit of a plea to think about workers. Many workers don't have those flexible choices. And we know there are many kinds of jobs where that flexibility is not open to people. So the generally, the jobs where these things often apply are white collar jobs and often, men's jobs, male jobs.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:47:35]:
And so the and there are that that leaves out many workers who don't have access to this kind of flexibility. So the, for me, the question is often is the flexibility for whom. But, Brett, absolutely, these schemes have been shown to be beneficial for many workers, but I think just just with that little bit of caution from me.
Carol Ventresca [00:47:58]:
Wonderful. Okay. I'm I'm gonna go back to, Phillip's comment about the firefighters for my next my next question to Phyllis, that notion of that mentoring. There are individuals out there who can learn from each other. Job circles provide support. Internships provide professional development for young folks. It would seem that the lessons that we have learned from those situations, like could can work in a corporate setting, younger workers teaching older workers that sort of art of technology, while older workers provide young staff with insight into intricacies like that networking, the value of networking, the value of clear communications and wisdom that comes from shared experiences. Phyllis, you've looked at this a lot.
Carol Ventresca [00:48:48]:
Can you tell us a little bit about building those skills into training programs around opportunities, such as structured mentoring?
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:48:56]:
Sure. And intergenerational training can be accomplished in a lot of different Way. And I think of, say, a project team to work on a project, you can include a diverse group, Way, it's a 3 or 4 or 5 person team, having an older person, a younger person, having different racial components, racial and ethnic components so that people really become, become accustomed to working with different people with that are different. They have different ideas, and they have different skill levels. So the older person might not have the technical skills the technical skills the younger person does, but the older person might have the networking. They might have, life experiences that are useful. And so it can be intergenerational that way, or there could be more formal mentoring programs where an older adult is paired with a younger adult, and they just mentor each other. Maybe they have lunch once a month.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:50:03]:
They have breakfast or something. And the older adult might the older worker might share thoughts on workplace etiquette, the import the soft skills, the importance of, showing up to work, how to network. And in the same way that in project teams, the the younger adult the younger worker can can show the older worker social networking, like Facebook and LinkedIn and and Twitter, all of those skills that are becoming more important in in many jobs today, and also just how to use the computer more easily. Now I I recall one interview, and this was not in the workplace. It was an educational setting. I we were interviewing adult students, older Studios, and one woman we interviewed shared that, well, her granddaughter helped her use the computer and how to do Excel and Word for her assignments, that sort of thing. So intergenerational mentoring could be outside of the workplace as well.
Carol Ventresca [00:51:20]:
One
Brett Johnson [00:51:20]:
of the most significant issues for older job applicants is their understanding of technology. We've kind of talked about that, quite a bit here as well as the employer's assumption of their tech skill level. Younger workers arrive at, an employer with technology in their hand since they were able to walk as we talked about that Way, digital native. We need to come up with a different term for older adults, a digital, in in in Forward Innovators.
Carol Ventresca [00:51:46]:
Innovators. We're the innovators.
Brett Johnson [00:51:47]:
Yeah. Maybe something like that. Yeah. Well, let's start that. But, you know, tech skill levels for older adults vary across the spectrum. I mean, Phillip, what should employers understand about the technology training needs of older employees and are there methods that have been more successful in teaching those skills?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:52:05]:
Gosh. That's a that's a difficult question to answer. I think that that I I wouldn't necessarily separate technological skills from other skills. And I also wouldn't say that as a recommendation to an employer would be not necessarily to assume that a younger person arriving is going to be a digital native. Or that an older person who's arriving for an interview is necessarily a digital Way a digital Luddite, somebody who's, who knows nothing about technology, or is or as an assumption that they're not interested in technology. So I think, you know, we it's it's avoiding making age based assumptions about that person who's presenting for interview. So I mean, that that would be my my immediate response to that question. And there's no doubt about it that that many of the workers, have been left behind in recently, in recent years as technological change is advancing at such a pace.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:53:13]:
So, it's important, I think, for governments and universities and colleges to, to consider what they can offer older people in terms of reskilling opportunities. We often tend to Phillip, Phyllis is much more expert than me on this. We think about education and training as being front loaded. And what I mean by that is that something that happens to you when you're young. You go to college when you're young, don't you? And we know that, older workers are much less likely to go to college. So I think for governments, and for Forward, colleges, they need to be thinking much more about what they can do to support support workers as they age. So making that thing that we've talked about for many, many years, that thing lifelong learning, making that a reality, but also saying to all the workers, you do need to invest in your skills. So but I think that's it's probably a better come Phyllis is probably better able to answer this question than I am without oh.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:54:32]:
Yeah. In in one of our projects, we interviewed people across Europe and other parts of the world on what they the lifelong lifelong learning opportunities they offered people of all ages. And I felt like the the Scandinavian countries were amongst the best of that. And I think in terms of creating a learning society where where individuals understand the need to, maintain skills and improve their skills throughout their life course and that training, just becomes a part of life. In Scandinavian countries, they have learning circles. They have a lot of adult education opportunities at little or no cost. It was I'm myself, I'm a lifelong learner. I, it was 40 years between my undergraduate degree at Ohio State and my PhD at Miami.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:55:28]:
And it's just been a part of my life that that I've just and it wasn't that I was encouraged by my parents. I'm 1st generation college graduate. But it's something that I saw that I needed that in my I had one career at Prudential where I had the same employer, but I had a lot of different lifelong learner, and I make sure made sure I had the skills that that I could transition into something else when my job was eliminated.
Carol Ventresca [00:56:03]:
It seems that, the most important part of this conversation we've had or a a very important part of our conversation is that the individual needs to take ownership of what they know and what they need to learn and but part of that also is to be excited about learning. I I think that that the the folks that I worked with in my previous employment directing a nonprofit was that people had no incentive to learn new things over the time of their their employment and didn't realize the need to keep learning, but then really weren't interested. They were sort of stymied because of having been, not being being in a learning environment, not understanding that it could be, useful, not painful to be in a learning environment. So although an individual needs to take ownership, an employer or entity like higher education also needs to show how exciting learning can be. And I don't know that our educational institutions do that.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:57:20]:
No. I think there's an assumption that that, education is a thing that happens to young people. Mhmm. I don't think as a society, we stress enough the need for lifelong learning. And people often carry forward negative experiences of learning into adulthood. Exactly. They just put off the idea of going back to college. And I think for many older workers, particularly now, as the change is swirling all around us, it's hard to know how to go back to college, you're just struggling to make ends meet you paying your mortgage.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:58:03]:
And and you want me to go to college as well.
Carol Ventresca [00:58:06]:
Right.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:58:07]:
And so how as a society do we do we enable older people to take some time out to go back to college to get to get a degree to change direction? And as a society, we've not worked this out yet. I think, as I said, a few moments ago, Looking front loaded, you get it when you're young, generally. And it's disappointing, because this debate has been going on for decades, this lifelong learning debates been going for for a long We're still not crack you know, cracked that nut.
Carol Ventresca [00:58:47]:
Absolutely. My 20 years in continuing education, we are farther behind now than we were then, in terms of helping adults see not just see education and higher ed learning as important and as fulfilling and as fun, but also to see that education can come in a lot of different forms and it isn't just in a classroom getting a degree. There are there are other ways to do that. We could have another podcast just on that topic. So thank you both so much for everything that you have given us today. I hate to close this down, but we're we've just my head's sort of spinning with all this information. One of the things, though, that we do really relish in our conversations with our guests is to give each of you an opportunity to give us your last words of wisdom. What would you like to make sure that our audience has heard from you today? Phyllis, maybe you'd like to start us out.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:59:48]:
Sure. I I'll go back to what I was just talking about, the importance of being a lifelong learner and, that adults of all ages need to understand that they're going to have a lot of different jobs and maybe even different occupations over their life course. And I think even more today than it was when I started, entered the workforce in 1973 that just technology changes and changes, more glow that we're a more global economy, that it's just so important to be a lifelong learner.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [01:00:30]:
And and if and maybe going on on from what Phyllis has just said a little bit, I think something I'm turning my attention to increasingly is the issue of socially disadvantaged older workers. There's much been said about the need for us to work on to work for longer, to extend our working lives to the age of 70 or beyond. But I think there is still a significant group of older people in society for whom that's hugely challenging. And I think that's that's the public policy conundrum. What could we do with those workers? And I think there's much there's a need for much greater attention to the challenges that they face.
Brett Johnson [01:01:12]:
Well, thank you to both of you. Yeah. Many thanks to our guest experts, doctor Phyllis Cummins from the my Miami University Scripps Gerontology program and doctor Phillip Taylor, professor at the Institute of Employment Research at the University of Warwick in Coventry England for joining us today. Listeners, thank you for joining us. Check out our show notes on the website for contact information and the resources that we discussed today. You can find those details at looking Forward our Way and we are looking forward to hearing your feedback on this or any of our other podcast episodes.
We are Looking Forward Our Way from Studio C in the 511 Studios in the Brewery District just south of downtown Columbus, Ohio. Hi. This is Brett. Carol and I are in the studio with our guests coming to us remotely. Let's first welcome Doctor Phyllis Cummins. Phyllis is a senior research scholar at the Scripps Gerontology Center at my alma mater, Miami University of Ohio. Phyllis is also a fellow for the Gerontological Society of America. Our second guest is Doctor Phillip Taylor, a professor at the Institute of Employment Research at the University of Warwick in Coventry, England.
Brett Johnson [00:00:41]:
Phillip is also a fellow for the Gerontological Society of America and the associate editor of Aging and Society as well as the governor of the aging workforce interest group for the Gerontological Society of America. Welcome to you both. Fine.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:00:59]:
Thanks for having us.
Carol Ventresca [00:01:01]:
Thank you both so much for being with us today. Brett and I have had a lot of opportunities to advocate for older adults and demonstrate the value that they bring to an employer. But today, we welcome our 2 guests who are both experts in workforce development and the impact of aging. We're going to dive into this research, which has been conducted not only in the United States, but also in England and Australia. But first, we want to have our guests introduce themselves and provide us with some of their background in workforce development. Phillip, maybe you could start us off.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:01:38]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So I began researching issues of older workers, at the end of 19 eighties. If anybody can remember the 1980s, I was researching older workers back then. And this is a really interesting subject, I think, because we could talk at length about the history of older workers and the issue of older workers. And the past is a fascinating one, because a lot of the discussions that we're having today Way were having 40 years ago, on this topic. And I think I think that's an important lesson. What Way we know about the past of older workers and how that frames our thinking about what to do today about this issue.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:02:28]:
And a lot of the debates we're having today are very familiar to me because we were having the same debates in the 19 eighties. So it's great to be here talking about this with you today.
Carol Ventresca [00:02:39]:
Thank you. Phyllis, how about you?
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:02:41]:
Well, I first became, Ventresca in the topic of older workers when I was working on my dissertation at Miami University. I'm an older worker myself and, studying gerontology and becoming a researcher at Scripts Gerontology Center is a second career for me. But I was working on my dissertation, during toward the tail end of the great recession, And I became very interested in the impacts of that recession on older workers because they tended to be unemployed for longer periods of time, and it became difficult for them to reenter the workforce and a lot of it needed additional training. So during the past 10 years, as a Scripps researcher, my real interest has been in older workers, their place in the workplace, and the importance of ongoing trading so that they can remain employed if they so desire.
Brett Johnson [00:03:40]:
There are an incredible number of issues at stake in this field of research. Today, we're going to hone in on 2 major challenges. 1, how does an employer ensure candidates have an equal opportunity to gain employment and ensure every company stakeholder is trained to create a culture of fair recruiting, hiring, and retention. And secondly, why employers should ensure their workforce is properly trained, focusing on their abilities and learning capacity creating a more efficient and effective company. Phillip, we should start with an understanding of the role older adults play in a workforce. Also, why are so many retirees looking to return to paid employment?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:04:23]:
That's a really good question, Brett. And it it the issues are, multifaceted around this. We have an aging society and in Australia, in the UK, in the USA, Japan, Europe, our societies are aging. And it's long been recognized that people will need to work for longer in order that governments are concerned about this through through Social Security. They don't want to be paying out Social Security to people earning an increasingly aging population. They want us to work. And that's driven a lot of thinking amongst policymakers internationally about this issue. The rising cost of social welfare, and governments want to minimize that cost.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:05:26]:
Hey, let's get all the workers. Let's get all the people to work for as long as possible. And that frankly, has driven much thinking in this space. But on top of that, it's increasingly recognized that productive activities, active aging, if you will, is talked about a lot, that's good for us. We people want to participate in society, they feel a need to participate in society. So these issues, these these issues have aligned beautifully in the last few decades. So governments want us to work for longer, and we want to work for a longer longer as well, because we know that it's good for us doing something is good for us. So we know as well at the moment, that many employers are struggling to find labor.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:06:26]:
And again, this is an international problem. And Way, there's a pool of potential workers out there who have valuable skills and capabilities that they can deploy, and they want to work. And so there's a there's potentially a good marriage there between older people and businesses that are crying out for labor. This is isn't just an an issue in the US. It's it's an international problem. This problem of shortfalls in labor supply as we call it.
Brett Johnson [00:07:00]:
That's interesting that you pull in the in international. I'm glad you're here to to speak to that because we can only look at ourselves here in the US that it it's actually an international problem, that that's that's really interesting.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:07:13]:
Japan. If you think about Japan, South Korea, very age societies, and this huge anxiety about what they're going to do about those aging populations. Because one thing they don't do in Japan and Korea is migration. And migrations been something of a savior for the, the UK and also, the USA and continental Europe. But Japan and South Korea, don't do immigration in the same way that we do. So they've got to do much more with less. And that's causing challenges in those those countries.
Carol Ventresca [00:07:58]:
Interesting. Thank you. Thank you for that. One of the things that, I'm very interested in is the notion of how employers combat ageism in their organization. We've heard stories of age discrimination in hiring and retention practices. I often say that ageism is the only ism that seems to be allowed, and we that people get away with here. It seems that it's rampant. Employers consistently discuss their commitment to equity and fairness, but we don't often see that in the hiring process.
Carol Ventresca [00:08:32]:
What should employers be looking for in their organization to make sure they are actually combating ageism?
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:08:39]:
Merrill, thanks for the question. And you're right. It's from both a hiring perspective and then a retention, in the in the workplace. And it's I think it's important that, that it comes from the top down that ageism is not acceptable. But senior management conveys to their hiring manager and all the way down to managers that that ageism in the workplace is not acceptable. Because as Phillip mentioned, there are worker shortages now, so we need workers of all ages to be available. And so to combat ageism in the workplace, it's important that hiring managers really understand age discrimination laws. Some employers may be afraid to interview older adults because if the older adult is not hired, they might face, litigation.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:09:35]:
But they can one one way to get around that is by having age blind, review of resumes, applications and resumes. And then in job postings, be careful employers need to be careful that they don't have ageist language in their job postings, such as digital natives only need apply. There's been I've read of several examples of employers actually putting that in job postings. There's also been research that, when, say, someone sent in a 100 resumes and that it was obvious that that those that were obviously older workers didn't get a callback, whereas others did get a callback. So just the whole the whole idea of trying to age blind reviewing applications and resumes. But it's also important for older adults seeking new employment to take take some responsibility in their job seeking efforts. And I hear stories about resumes filled with errors, and the older adult not taking time to really do a thoughtful and careful review of the resumes, and then they blame they blame their age rather than their, their errors in their resume on on why they aren't hired. And some adults also have self imposed, attitudes of self imposed ageism that, oh, they won't hire me.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:11:09]:
So they go into an interview with the attitude that attitude. So, it's sort it's what happens then. So it's it's important when, say, an older adult applies for a job that they make sure that they have the skills that the employer's looking for. And if they don't have those skills, to to get some training so they do have the skills, because I think it's an indication to an employer that if it's I think they call it signaling. Like, if if I can show that I've learned new skills, that is important to an employer in hiring because it's an indication that they can learn and be productive. But training in the workplace is training about ageism in the workplace is also important so that, and not Forward all employees, not just hiring managers or managers because just ageist language, like calling somebody honey or dear. That doesn't work well. I had a doctor that I went to once, and she said to me, oh, you're 70 years young.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:12:19]:
And this is a doctor, and I'm thinking, does she really know that that's an ageist thing to say? But, anyway, I think just education about ageist language and offering, older workers the same opportunities for promotion and professional development is important. There's been some research that older adults just aren't given the same training opportunities, and I think we'll probably discuss that later. But I think it's important that older adults take advantage before they're hired of upskilling.
Carol Ventresca [00:12:53]:
I I was, talking to a group of college students the other day, and one of the tips that I gave them, I actually just realized I could give to my older adult job seekers, and that is, when someone offers you an opportunity, don't say no. You say yes, take a breath, and figure it out.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:13:13]:
Yeah. I think well, Phillip, thank you, and, I think, what Phillip says it is great. I I wanted to add to it a couple of things. Just an example of ageism and action. I did a project, in Australia recently, and we were looking at, ageism in universities. And I won't name the university. It would be indelicate. But, they offered an early retirement scheme, to workers aged 50.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:13:51]:
So the university assumed that people were over the hill at the age of 50, which I thought was truly remarkable. And, Phyllis mentioned signaling, and and we wrote about what what that the existence of that scheme signaled to workers who are aged in their 40s. It signaled that you are nearly old. So watch Our, because quite soon, you will be old, you'll be 50. And that wasn't that that Way, one example. But there are there are, there were there were others that that had schemes targeting older workers in their 50s. So not not not as young as 50, but maybe 55. But it's out there.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:14:42]:
And it's real. I would Way, though, that I often think we need to be quite careful in comes in arguing the ageism is lurking behind every tree. Because I'm not always so convinced of that. And I, I would say going on from what Phyllis said that the older workers sometimes internalize ageism, I'm too old to train, or I'm too old to get a job, no one would hire me. And I'd say here that we often will single out employers particular attention here, you know, you're being ageist. But I would plead some caution, I think in advocacy and also in government policy, I've observed a tendency towards ageism as well. So I think the problem is, if anything, I think we should characterize it as being a societal problem. And not just say it's you employers that are at fault.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:15:48]:
I think there's a bigger picture here, as as society about how how we talk about older workers, what the, you know, the public discourse is around around aging, if that if that makes sense. So I think, you know, I see I see ageist advocacy, a well meaning advocacy on targeting older people, but advocacy that is ageist. And so I think it's something that we all need to reflect upon, and it's not just a problem of employers, if that makes sense.
Carol Ventresca [00:16:24]:
Absolutely. I I, gave a presentation to a group of approximately a 100 people, and this gentleman at the end got up and said he was the perfect candidate for the Johnson he didn't get it because he was too old. So my question to him was, do you know who got the job? And he said no. And I said, so you have no clue as to that possibly that person is one day older than you. Way we we make assumptions based on what we hear or what we think we are hearing from other folks. If it's in an interview, if you are employed by by someone and you're having conversations with peers or other managers or, supervisors that you you have to carefully listen and make sure you're not assuming there is an ism in that conversation. Don't don't assume ahead of time.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:17:24]:
Sorry, Carol. I interrupted you. I I if come back on that because I think it's a really good point. I I I'm reminisced I I am reminded of a report from Stanford Longevity Center, that a line sticks with me from this report referring to the wisdom of older people and the energy of youth. And I thought, well, what about the wisdom of younger people and the energy of older people? And I thought that this this this report, drawing directly from age stereotypes. And I was frankly astonished. And I, you know, and I think messaging is really important. And so that's my point, let's not just view this as old employers being the problem.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:18:16]:
Because I think it's more of a societal thing and how we talk about aging. Another quick point, if I may. Ageism is a really interesting topic and age discrimination is did you know that in Australia and also in European countries, our age discrimination legislation can apply to any age, not just as with the ADEA Our 40. So a young person can claim age discrimination too. So I think it is worth reflecting upon whether we shouldn't open out the discussion a little bit to so involve younger people in a conversation about ageism because when I've spoken at events about ageism and talked about ageism and young people with young people present, they all come up to me and say, Yes, I'm really pleased you've spoken about this because no one talks about it. We experience it too. And I think involving young people in in the dialogue around ageism is really powerful.
Carol Ventresca [00:19:21]:
That that's wonderful. Thank you so much for that message because we hear from young people often that you're not listening to me. You're not taking what I say seriously because I'm young. Great. Great. That's wonderful. Thank you so much.
Brett Johnson [00:19:35]:
Yeah. So, you know, Phillip, mature job candidates often look for positions that are different than they previously held. They may not wanna manage staff anymore. Or they prefer fewer hours or maybe flexible schedules. Have employers successfully recruited and retained older workers through innovative programs such as targeted benefits packages to more closely meet those specific needs?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:20:00]:
No. The the answer is absolutely. I mean with employers internationally come to mind, redesign of jobs, putting in health service, particular health services for workers to meet to meet their changing needs, and so on. Flexible deployment options, flexible retirement options. So you could you could say part time retire, you could gradually retire. So there are a whole there are lots of mechanisms that are being deployed internationally by by businesses in this space. I would come back back to what you Way. I think that there are assumptions about what older people older people need.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:20:49]:
And it's a discussion we should have today is what's an older worker? Because I think that's an interesting question in itself. At what point do you become old? But I think that for me, it's often the case though that the, for instance, with with parents returning to the world of work, in their late 50s, they might want a full time job, they may want they may be building their career at that point. And they may want to be taking on extra responsibility. So I think we should we should be wary of of of possibly veering into assumptions about what older people might Way, late, late later on in a career or at older ages. So yes, there's a lot out there, I think in terms of good workplace policy in this space. But on the other hand, I think we shouldn't necessarily assume that older workers might want to begin to retire gradually, or that they necessarily have particular needs that need to be addressed. If that makes sense, Brett.
Brett Johnson [00:22:04]:
Yeah. I was I I think maybe a good example of this is my daughter just, started a new new position. And some of the one of the perks is unlimited personal time off. But there are some caveats. Obviously, they kind of put some guardrails to it to a certain degree suggesting, you know, really only x amount of time, but it is stated that way. And then I I got to talking about that that philosophy that with a couple other business owners and and they said yeah there's been a research that you know you can offer the the the unlimited but it's never taken. So it's that okay unlimited pto it could be good for any age it comes down to if it's taken or not It's it's Way. Offer it to everybody.
Brett Johnson [00:22:45]:
You know? It may fit. It's it's a non age thing, but it's there and probably most people aren't gonna take it.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:22:55]:
Quite, quite so. And I think it's the devil is in detail of these pop And it's all very well having a policy. But if no one takes it up, it's not not much of a not much of a policy really. One interesting thing that I was reminded of was policies to encourage people to work past the age of 65 in some countries. While there seems to be interest amongst older workers in working on, Forward many workers, that age of 65 seems to be a bit of a bit of a barrier. It's changing. It's changing. But nonetheless, 65 seems to be a bit of a line for many workers.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:23:38]:
And so employers may be keen to keep them past that age. But for many workers, it does seem to be a bit of a bit of a barrier. But I think that is changing gradually. Social norms around working and retiring are adjusting. But still, people are still Looking, I'm in my early sixties. It's, it's I'm getting getting me at the time now, least in many countries. Maybe not in the USA, but in many of the countries I know.
Carol Ventresca [00:24:05]:
There there are examples of positions in which retirement is mandatory, such as pilots, commercial pilots. I think is 7 65 or 70 is the is the mandatory age, and and the pilots who have been forced to retire are bringing up issues and trying to get past it. So there's really it it's, that ageism is from both perspectives. Pushing people into retirement, forcing them into retirement, that that we need to as you said, we need to better understand the issues that are going on, not from a perspective of how old somebody is, but from a perspective of what do they want to do and what can they do and how can we accommodate everyone regardless of age, background, experience, education, whatever that may be. Is that am I interpreting this correctly?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:25:09]:
Well, I'm surprised, Carol, we haven't spoken about octogenarian presidents yet.
Carol Ventresca [00:25:14]:
Let's not. No. We don't. We it's going to be a long year in in in the US. Fellas, please.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:25:23]:
I think that it's an interesting area to to to discuss, but perhaps another podcast
Carol Ventresca [00:25:28]:
Exactly. Exactly.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:25:30]:
Yeah. I I wanted to talk a little more about flexible work because I think since the start of the pandemic, work arrangements have really changed a lot. And it it's not just older adults that might want flexible work arrangements. Some might. But you've got people with young children or that their kids are involved in sports activities. Some of the the things that have come out of the pandemic where remote work Way more common, and they can take off a couple hours during the day to go to a sporting event or a doctor's appointment, and then make it up later at night if they need to. So I think there have been, you know, quite a few benefits from the pandemic. Certainly, they're not all great, but I think work arrangements have really changed.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:26:14]:
And it's flexible work arrangements aren't important just for older adults, but for people of all ages that that have other abilities. And I think it's been good for for employers and employees that that this change has happened.
Carol Ventresca [00:26:31]:
We we have an age advocate here in Columbus who always, says and has taught us well that whatever is good for an older person is likely good for a younger person, whether that be a flexible schedule or a, a covered sheltered bus stop, what whatever that may be. But it seems that this goes really goes back to the the issue of redefining or or reevaluating job descriptions, job requirements, and job tasks. Because if a you know, if somebody is on a an assembly line, they aren't gonna get a flexible schedule. The assembly line is going to continue with or without them at their post, and if they're not there, then there's gonna be a problem on that assembly line. But if it's if it's a a position that there is flexibility in when the work happens, then flexibility in a schedule is more likely to happen also. Is that is that really what we we need to focus on, Phillip?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:27:32]:
Yeah. And just so well, on on on assembly lines, in in particular, b BMW, several years ago now, implemented an assembly line that Way staffed solely by older workers and to huge effect. And it was very, very successful. And I would say, you know, with exceptions, like fighter pilots, and things like that, I think to a large extent, age is unrelated to one's ability to do a job. There are obvious, I mean, there are always exceptions to the rule, like, like, you know, military pilots, for instance. But nonetheless, I think on the whole, we shouldn't, we should argue, we should we should advocate that age shows relatively little relationship with job performance. And I think that's a really powerful message. And it's not that older workers are better than young younger ones.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:28:32]:
It's that age really shouldn't matter and doesn't matter, in fact.
Carol Ventresca [00:28:37]:
Very true. And and going back to that assembly line, BMW had to make some changes to make that work. Correct?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:28:46]:
Yes. Yeah. But but relatively modest, relatively low cost changes.
Carol Ventresca [00:28:52]:
Exactly. Exactly.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:28:54]:
That assembly line functioned, as well as an assembly line assembly line with younger workers. And so it's relatively relatively low cost, we can affect changes in organizations that can have a dramatic impact on people's ability to work on. So these these interventions are not necessarily hugely costly. But they can have a massive impact on organizations.
Carol Ventresca [00:29:24]:
Correct. And and I know there was an assembly line change in a auto manufacturer, and I'm not sure if it was the one at BMW or another one where they literally the the only thing that really needed to to happen was that the the assembly line platform was raised. It was higher to to accommodate issues, and it it it accommodated the issues for any a worker of any age. I mean, nobody wants to stoop over in in their in their work. And so it really is a an issue of rethinking the task, evaluating the task, and how it can be more efficient, more effective, and easier or I don't wanna even use the word easier, but, better for the the worker to perform and age is not part of that decision.
Brett Johnson [00:30:14]:
Yeah. I mean
Carol Ventresca [00:30:15]:
It doesn't need to be. Abs
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:30:17]:
if if I may come in. Yeah. I mean, I I think the the it's important to consider the downstream consequences of jobs on workers. So an older worker doesn't just get a bad back suddenly at the age of 56. That bad back has been coming for many years. So if we can help if we can intervene in terms of the quality of people's jobs much earlier in a career, It can mean that a person can work for much longer. But we know the evidence is quite clear, certainly in the UK, that that, one of the big drivers of early retirement is ill health. And so if we can intervene earlier in her career, we can perhaps head off that that critical driver of people's withdrawal from the world of work.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:31:09]:
Right.
Carol Ventresca [00:31:10]:
Wonderful. Thank you very much. Phyllis, I'm gonna go ahead and and move on to our next topic, which, salary is always a very critical issue for everyone. That is a critical issue for our job candidates. How can employer ensure that they are maintaining equitable salary levels for all candidates as well as their staff. And are salary packages critical to retaining qualified staff?
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:31:39]:
Well, salary packages are important to people of all ages, across the their working lives. And they should be based on experiences and responsibilities of the employee regardless of age. In many employment situation, salaries and salary packages are public. I worked for Miami University, and, it may be a year or 2 old that people can look up what I make at Miami University. And I think that's true of all public employees. Ohio State's data were actually more current. And people talk. People have some sense for what other employees in the organization are making.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:32:22]:
They talk. And there's there's organizations such as Glassdoor where you could get some sense for Way, employees with the other employees with the same responsibilities or what their income is. So it's important that employers keep on top of what they need to pay, not just in salary, but overall packages to retain their employees, to be competitive. But it's important that someone at the same level in an organization and the same level of productivity should make roughly the same amount regardless of seniority. I know people that have been around a long time, they get pay increases, but, it should even out somewhat Our time. And if, say, an older worker or a younger worker, maybe they have the same job responsibilities, but they're not as productive. And so maybe they don't get as much of an increase in their next next review. It's important to document if they're not as productive, why they're not as productive so that so that employees employers can protect themselves because not everybody is as productive.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:33:41]:
In some cases, an older employee might prefer to have fewer responsibilities. We talked a little bit about that in flexible work arrangements. Maybe they, in the past, they've supervised a lot of people, but maybe they don't want that stress anymore on group supervising people. And they might Way a less stressful work situation. And in those situations, the older worker, would really need to understand that they're not gonna make the same as what they have previously or what what others in the organization might make that that have those additional responsibilities.
Brett Johnson [00:34:18]:
Well, employers once spend significant dollars on training, but that benefits not readily available now or just as it's lost focus. However, training access plays a major role in today's workforce. Positions and tasks are constantly changing so the skills of current employees they they must be upgraded. Job candidates walk into interviews frantic to demonstrate that they know new technologies and continue to to learn more. Phillip training programs for older workers may need to be modified to fit the learning styles that work for this mature population. Way role should employers fill in creating effective training opportunities? Have you found any successfully implemented? Are they kind of the same for younger workers and older workers? Maybe maybe there's no line of demarcation there.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:35:10]:
I there there there is good evidence that older workers' learning styles are somewhat different from young peers. There's no doubt about that. And there are, again, examples of employers that have implemented interventions targeting the skills of older workers. And I think in one sense, that in itself is really important, because there's often an assumption that you hit the age of 60. And there's no point there's no point in investing in Brett anymore. Because 60 now, Brett going to be gone in a few years. And so let's not waste the money on investing with Brett. But but but Carol is in her 20s.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:35:53]:
And Carol is going to be with us for a long period of time. So we're going to invest in Carol. And so the lots of assumptions Brett into all of this. Brett might actually be thinking, well, I'm feeling, you know, pretty, pretty, pretty fit. I can see myself being here another 10 years. So it's investing in skills alone is a good thing, I think, because often there's an assumption from employers that it's not worth doing it. Also, older workers as well, I should stress. Older workers will say, Looking, I've interviewed older workers on this topic.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:36:29]:
I'll say, Look, Phil, you know, I'm nearing the end of my career, you know, what's the point in me going back to college? And so it, it's really important to stress to older people who are looking for work that they need to be investing in their skills, and for people in work to invest in their skills over the long term. The world of work is changing. It's evolving. Things are shifting very quickly. And we all need to be keeping our skills up to date. So I think it's not just the responsibility of employers. I think they play a critical role here, but it's also the responsibility of of, workers for workers too.
Brett Johnson [00:37:15]:
I think you bring up a good point too that, there needs to be a conversation between employer employee about where are you where are you in this position? I mean are you are you happy? Are you, you know, you see yourself here Forward you're 60, you see yourself here for another 10 years? This is what we're gonna I I I just a healthy conversation about Way want you here and we get some training that's available if you feel that you want to be here or are I mean again, I they need older adult does Way to play those cards saying, no, I'm only gonna be here a couple more years but there's got to be a way to have this conversation that you are, encouraging every employee to want to stay by these opportunities that you provide.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:38:01]:
I I it's a really good point, and I I know anecdotally, employers will sometimes say, but we're reluctant to have those conversations, for fear of being accused of age discrimination. So we need to devise ways in which we can have open conversations Looking about, what can we do to keep you for longer? How can we invest? What, what are your what are your plans going forward as an employee? I I've been told by employers, you know, with greeted my comments about older workers with incredulity. They say that the people in my factory, they're done. They want to go. They don't want to stay here. And I thought to myself, yeah, if you ever asked any of them, what could be done to keep them for longer? And I suspect there's a bit of a dialogue of the deaf going on. Nobody really wants to talk about this.
Brett Johnson [00:39:01]:
Dialogue of the deaf. I love that. It
Carol Ventresca [00:39:03]:
it would seem though part of the conversation, they have to be comfortable knowing that if they say, I wanna continue to work, but I don't wanna do this. They have to be comfortable that the employer is going to say there are alternatives because I may wanna stay working in this organization, but I don't wanna work in that physical position. But could I possibly be trained to do I don't wanna say customer service, but, you know, a a a position that is not physical that they could still do. I don't know that employers have that much, flexibility themselves to create positions for an individual to stay, the funding that would go into it, that kind of thing. So it it seems like part of the policies that we are looking at on how we can help older adults also have to be to help employers come up with those alternatives.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:40:05]:
Yeah. I mean, the I I I I can give you an an immediate response. Johnson firefighting organization in Spain that I'm familiar with, implemented a scheme targeting older firefighters who were recognizing that their bodies were wearing out and they just couldn't what they used to do. So what they did with those workers, they moved them into training and mentoring roles, to huge success, they kept all of this capability, which hitherto would have disappeared. And the and it was greatly appreciated by the younger workers because they were picking up all of these skills. So there are lots of ways in which we could think imaginatively about how we deploy old workers.
Carol Ventresca [00:40:54]:
Right. I I can remember, Phyllis mentioned working in higher education, and I was in higher education for almost 30 years. When someone retired, and needless to say they couldn't wait to get out, but when they retired they took with them 30, 35, 40 years of information. It wasn't the tasks that they completed. It was who they knew on campus and how to make things happen and and how to get through the process easier and all those kinds of bits and pieces of information that were lost were huge and the organization, really never recognized that problem, and and were willing to to deal with with that. So, yes, thank you. Thank you for that. Phyllis, would you
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:41:41]:
Yeah. Carol, I think there's you brought up the what I think of is institutional knowledge, that that we have. There's also a networking component because
Carol Ventresca [00:41:52]:
Exactly.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:41:53]:
Through organizations, I met Phillip, and I have, in some of my work, I I'm involved with community colleges and recruiting them to be case study schools. And I made all those contacts through networking. And a lot of that just when I retire, that's gonna go away. There's not anyone at Miami that's really doing the same kind of work that I have done, which is unfortunate. And just I think the institutional knowledge that's lost and the networking and the importance of, me mentoring someone to really take over my work if to find somebody that's interested. And I don't know if Phillip has thoughts on that that topic. It's a little bit off track. But
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:42:38]:
I don't think it is off track, Phyllis. I don't I I would This is where there's always the devil in the detail of these conversations. Way also know of employers who want greenfield sites, They want green workforces. They don't want corporate knowledge, because for them, corporate knowledge is the past. And we don't want the past, we want the future. And certainly in conversations I've had with employers in this space, that corporate knowledge isn't valued. And this is where it gets complicated, I think, in having conversations about these issues. The, you know, it's not necessarily the case that there are already easy solutions that can be implied in all workplaces.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:43:21]:
Because I think it's it's very, very complex areas. I think we've established in Our, in our conversation over the last Our, there are lots of nuances in all of this that we need to consider. So I think corporate knowledge is valuable in certain circumstances, but not necessarily in all of them.
Carol Ventresca [00:43:44]:
Phillip, without putting you on the spot here, can you give me an example of when corporate knowledge would not be valuable?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:43:52]:
It's because employers and, Forward looking employers who want to be
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:44:00]:
creating Way
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:44:00]:
they would consider to be innovative Forward looking businesses, that are maybe high-tech, for instance. And there's a concern that older workers are of the past, and we don't want to carry that past with us. We are very, we're very forward looking. We want to be innovative, we want to be creative. And those characteristics are not necessarily associated with old workers. So all I'm saying, Carol, is I think just pleading a little bit of caution, because we might imagine that employers think that corporate knowledge is is is Brett, and it's obvious, isn't it? But not necessarily. I think for some employers, they may not value it as much as we think they ought to. So
Carol Ventresca [00:44:44]:
So the their their assumption is that corporate knowledge is old ways of doing something, not necessarily an educated look at how something has performed in the past.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:44:59]:
Yes. Absolutely. Interesting. Corporate knowledge can be seen as a drag on organizational capability. Interesting. Okay. And this comes out of the human resource management literature. So corporate knowledge is not necessarily perceived as a corporate good.
Carol Ventresca [00:45:21]:
Okay. Thank you. I I had not heard that, and that that's shocking to me. It shouldn't be, but it is. I I wanna throw one more idea in here, though, to not forget this important lesson I had. Several years ago, we had a a speaker come to Columbus and discuss older workers, and she had what at that time was an innovative idea for employers and I think particularly for larger employers that when an individual was they knew that their career was going to be coming to an end. They did want to move into something different. But as opposed to them just working their job and then suddenly gone, the employers had opportunities where they could assist this individual to hone in on what they wanted to do in their next encore career and to help them create that entity in within the larger organization in such a way that it benefited the larger organization and launched the individual into their next encore career.
Carol Ventresca [00:46:30]:
So it was sort of giving them a transition period. Has that has anything like that ever come across your desk?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:46:38]:
Yes. I mean, there's there's a lot come out of the US on bridge employment, bridge jobs in recent years. Lots of ways of of exiting the labor force in in in in lots of ways of of exiting the labor force in in in in, more flexible ways. And I it's undoubtedly the case that those kinds of programs benefit workers. There'll be a little, again, being a bit of a fly on the ointment in the conversation, just a bit of a plea to think about workers. Many workers don't have those flexible choices. And we know there are many kinds of jobs where that flexibility is not open to people. So the generally, the jobs where these things often apply are white collar jobs and often, men's jobs, male jobs.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:47:35]:
And so the and there are that that leaves out many workers who don't have access to this kind of flexibility. So the, for me, the question is often is the flexibility for whom. But, Brett, absolutely, these schemes have been shown to be beneficial for many workers, but I think just just with that little bit of caution from me.
Carol Ventresca [00:47:58]:
Wonderful. Okay. I'm I'm gonna go back to, Phillip's comment about the firefighters for my next my next question to Phyllis, that notion of that mentoring. There are individuals out there who can learn from each other. Job circles provide support. Internships provide professional development for young folks. It would seem that the lessons that we have learned from those situations, like could can work in a corporate setting, younger workers teaching older workers that sort of art of technology, while older workers provide young staff with insight into intricacies like that networking, the value of networking, the value of clear communications and wisdom that comes from shared experiences. Phyllis, you've looked at this a lot.
Carol Ventresca [00:48:48]:
Can you tell us a little bit about building those skills into training programs around opportunities, such as structured mentoring?
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:48:56]:
Sure. And intergenerational training can be accomplished in a lot of different Way. And I think of, say, a project team to work on a project, you can include a diverse group, Way, it's a 3 or 4 or 5 person team, having an older person, a younger person, having different racial components, racial and ethnic components so that people really become, become accustomed to working with different people with that are different. They have different ideas, and they have different skill levels. So the older person might not have the technical skills the technical skills the younger person does, but the older person might have the networking. They might have, life experiences that are useful. And so it can be intergenerational that way, or there could be more formal mentoring programs where an older adult is paired with a younger adult, and they just mentor each other. Maybe they have lunch once a month.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:50:03]:
They have breakfast or something. And the older adult might the older worker might share thoughts on workplace etiquette, the import the soft skills, the importance of, showing up to work, how to network. And in the same way that in project teams, the the younger adult the younger worker can can show the older worker social networking, like Facebook and LinkedIn and and Twitter, all of those skills that are becoming more important in in many jobs today, and also just how to use the computer more easily. Now I I recall one interview, and this was not in the workplace. It was an educational setting. I we were interviewing adult students, older Studios, and one woman we interviewed shared that, well, her granddaughter helped her use the computer and how to do Excel and Word for her assignments, that sort of thing. So intergenerational mentoring could be outside of the workplace as well.
Carol Ventresca [00:51:20]:
One
Brett Johnson [00:51:20]:
of the most significant issues for older job applicants is their understanding of technology. We've kind of talked about that, quite a bit here as well as the employer's assumption of their tech skill level. Younger workers arrive at, an employer with technology in their hand since they were able to walk as we talked about that Way, digital native. We need to come up with a different term for older adults, a digital, in in in Forward Innovators.
Carol Ventresca [00:51:46]:
Innovators. We're the innovators.
Brett Johnson [00:51:47]:
Yeah. Maybe something like that. Yeah. Well, let's start that. But, you know, tech skill levels for older adults vary across the spectrum. I mean, Phillip, what should employers understand about the technology training needs of older employees and are there methods that have been more successful in teaching those skills?
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:52:05]:
Gosh. That's a that's a difficult question to answer. I think that that I I wouldn't necessarily separate technological skills from other skills. And I also wouldn't say that as a recommendation to an employer would be not necessarily to assume that a younger person arriving is going to be a digital native. Or that an older person who's arriving for an interview is necessarily a digital Way a digital Luddite, somebody who's, who knows nothing about technology, or is or as an assumption that they're not interested in technology. So I think, you know, we it's it's avoiding making age based assumptions about that person who's presenting for interview. So I mean, that that would be my my immediate response to that question. And there's no doubt about it that that many of the workers, have been left behind in recently, in recent years as technological change is advancing at such a pace.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:53:13]:
So, it's important, I think, for governments and universities and colleges to, to consider what they can offer older people in terms of reskilling opportunities. We often tend to Phillip, Phyllis is much more expert than me on this. We think about education and training as being front loaded. And what I mean by that is that something that happens to you when you're young. You go to college when you're young, don't you? And we know that, older workers are much less likely to go to college. So I think for governments, and for Forward, colleges, they need to be thinking much more about what they can do to support support workers as they age. So making that thing that we've talked about for many, many years, that thing lifelong learning, making that a reality, but also saying to all the workers, you do need to invest in your skills. So but I think that's it's probably a better come Phyllis is probably better able to answer this question than I am without oh.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:54:32]:
Yeah. In in one of our projects, we interviewed people across Europe and other parts of the world on what they the lifelong lifelong learning opportunities they offered people of all ages. And I felt like the the Scandinavian countries were amongst the best of that. And I think in terms of creating a learning society where where individuals understand the need to, maintain skills and improve their skills throughout their life course and that training, just becomes a part of life. In Scandinavian countries, they have learning circles. They have a lot of adult education opportunities at little or no cost. It was I'm myself, I'm a lifelong learner. I, it was 40 years between my undergraduate degree at Ohio State and my PhD at Miami.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:55:28]:
And it's just been a part of my life that that I've just and it wasn't that I was encouraged by my parents. I'm 1st generation college graduate. But it's something that I saw that I needed that in my I had one career at Prudential where I had the same employer, but I had a lot of different lifelong learner, and I make sure made sure I had the skills that that I could transition into something else when my job was eliminated.
Carol Ventresca [00:56:03]:
It seems that, the most important part of this conversation we've had or a a very important part of our conversation is that the individual needs to take ownership of what they know and what they need to learn and but part of that also is to be excited about learning. I I think that that the the folks that I worked with in my previous employment directing a nonprofit was that people had no incentive to learn new things over the time of their their employment and didn't realize the need to keep learning, but then really weren't interested. They were sort of stymied because of having been, not being being in a learning environment, not understanding that it could be, useful, not painful to be in a learning environment. So although an individual needs to take ownership, an employer or entity like higher education also needs to show how exciting learning can be. And I don't know that our educational institutions do that.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:57:20]:
No. I think there's an assumption that that, education is a thing that happens to young people. Mhmm. I don't think as a society, we stress enough the need for lifelong learning. And people often carry forward negative experiences of learning into adulthood. Exactly. They just put off the idea of going back to college. And I think for many older workers, particularly now, as the change is swirling all around us, it's hard to know how to go back to college, you're just struggling to make ends meet you paying your mortgage.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:58:03]:
And and you want me to go to college as well.
Carol Ventresca [00:58:06]:
Right.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [00:58:07]:
And so how as a society do we do we enable older people to take some time out to go back to college to get to get a degree to change direction? And as a society, we've not worked this out yet. I think, as I said, a few moments ago, Looking front loaded, you get it when you're young, generally. And it's disappointing, because this debate has been going on for decades, this lifelong learning debates been going for for a long We're still not crack you know, cracked that nut.
Carol Ventresca [00:58:47]:
Absolutely. My 20 years in continuing education, we are farther behind now than we were then, in terms of helping adults see not just see education and higher ed learning as important and as fulfilling and as fun, but also to see that education can come in a lot of different forms and it isn't just in a classroom getting a degree. There are there are other ways to do that. We could have another podcast just on that topic. So thank you both so much for everything that you have given us today. I hate to close this down, but we're we've just my head's sort of spinning with all this information. One of the things, though, that we do really relish in our conversations with our guests is to give each of you an opportunity to give us your last words of wisdom. What would you like to make sure that our audience has heard from you today? Phyllis, maybe you'd like to start us out.
Dr. Phyllis Cummins [00:59:48]:
Sure. I I'll go back to what I was just talking about, the importance of being a lifelong learner and, that adults of all ages need to understand that they're going to have a lot of different jobs and maybe even different occupations over their life course. And I think even more today than it was when I started, entered the workforce in 1973 that just technology changes and changes, more glow that we're a more global economy, that it's just so important to be a lifelong learner.
Dr. Phillip Taylor [01:00:30]:
And and if and maybe going on on from what Phyllis has just said a little bit, I think something I'm turning my attention to increasingly is the issue of socially disadvantaged older workers. There's much been said about the need for us to work on to work for longer, to extend our working lives to the age of 70 or beyond. But I think there is still a significant group of older people in society for whom that's hugely challenging. And I think that's that's the public policy conundrum. What could we do with those workers? And I think there's much there's a need for much greater attention to the challenges that they face.
Brett Johnson [01:01:12]:
Well, thank you to both of you. Yeah. Many thanks to our guest experts, doctor Phyllis Cummins from the my Miami University Scripps Gerontology program and doctor Phillip Taylor, professor at the Institute of Employment Research at the University of Warwick in Coventry England for joining us today. Listeners, thank you for joining us. Check out our show notes on the website for contact information and the resources that we discussed today. You can find those details at looking Forward our Way and we are looking forward to hearing your feedback on this or any of our other podcast episodes.
