Christina Natale: Welcome back to the law and Coder. Podcast it's been a little while we've been kind of busy running around the country. Really, both of us. Morgan and I first, st our Pittsburgh Innovation Summit, that hike2 hosted which was just awesome, really great networking and ideas and innovation from all over kind of everywhere and and across industries. I'm your co-host, Christina Natale, the director of legal strategy and advisory at Hike and my co-host, Morgan Llewellyn Hi Morgan.
Morgan Llewellyn: Hi! Everyone.
Christina Natale: We're going to talk today about a really exciting topic. And I say that earnestly, because I know that as soon as we say the words out loud. It probably doesn't sound super sexy and exciting. But we're going to talk today about data transformation strategy. You look excited. Morgan.
Morgan Llewellyn: Yeah. So today, we're going to be talking about data transformation strategy as it pertains to law firms. And we're really lucky to have you know a Co. You know, co-presenter today a co-host, you know, in Emily, rushing. You know, just a dear friend. And really, you know, an expert in the field, and you know a wealth of knowledge, so you know, really excited to have her, and I'll introduce her here in a second, or let her introduce herself. But you know, data transformation strategy. Why, we're talking about this today is if we think about the role of data traditionally in law firms, it really was security focused. We have to keep our client data secure. And that was, you know, kind of the st through the th mandate. And you know almost the only mandate at some level. And over time that mandate hasn't changed. It's still one through The data has to be secure. But now what we've been finding is really there is some additional mandates. How do we generate value for the business operations using our data? How do we generate new and additional value for our clients through new and differentiated work product that is informed by data. And so we're starting to see a need to use data not just for security and keep it secure. But to use that data to help transform the business and really to help transform the work product and bring clients additional value. And so that's why we have Emily rushing with us today. Emily joins us from Holland tonight, and I'll let you introduce yourself, Emily. I'm just. I'm thrilled to see you again. She's a dear friend, and I really respect her and her opinion and you know, just her expertise. So thank you, Emily, for joining us? You know. Tell introduce yourself for the folks on on the call.
Emily Rushing: Thank you. Thank you for the kind introduction. The feeling is mutual. A friend of the podcast. Friend of hike, too. And you guys aren't sick of seeing me yet. So that's great news. Hi! Everyone thanks so much for having me. My name is Emily rushing. I'm the director of data strategy for Holland and Knight. I have more than years law, firm experience, the last of which have been in data, data, analytics, intelligence, technology, innovation focused roles. So I joined Holland and IA year and a half almost ago to a newly created knowledge and innovation department. Our first, st ever chief knowledge and innovation officer and part of the vision for our knowledge and innovation function. My data strategy group included, really reflected the firm's
massive growth. So like a lot of firms. We've gotten very big, very complex, very geographically diverse, very diverse in terms of our practices and everything, Morgan said, as far as protecting our client data and being compliant with everything we need to be compliant with. There's a recognition now that we have to differentiate ourselves in the market, right? We have to do things the Holland and way that attract our clients that retain our clients. They know and trust and appreciate our work product over another firms, but the same also with our people. So in order to attract and retain the right talent, the best talent, culture is really important. The spirit of innovation is really important, understanding our firm strategy, having leadership, setting the tone and then providing a technology enabled work environment where people are happy and satisfied with their jobs and doing their best work to their highest and best value. So that's kind of a new tone for law firms to take over the course of my career. I've been pleased to see us going in the direction of having those thoughts, but it's an exciting time to be in legal technology. It's an exciting time to be talking about law firm data. It's the st time my job has ever been cool.
Morgan Llewellyn: You know, I'm like.
Christina Natale: Thing we need, we.
Morgan Llewellyn: That's clear.
Christina Natale: Yeah, outro music. We're good to go.
Morgan Llewellyn: No, I think you said something in there, Emily, that resonated with me because I have heard this, but not so eloquently in other places around the role of people's happiness. And how data and new tools can impact happiness at law firms. How do you see the impact of data actually improving the well-being. Let's let's take a very broad right? The well-being or happiness of people. Yeah, keep about that.
Emily Rushing: I go around the firm. Last year we hosted an all lawyers meeting. We conducted an innovation lab. I stood on my feet. My feet hurt just remembering it, but it was so engaging we had hundreds, my estimates closer to lawyers. It was certainly hundreds coming up asking us, how will AI take bad data out of my life? Improve data quality? How will it automate the creation of data? Why am I doing the same manual. I say, hands on keyboard. Why am I? Tippity tap, tap, tapping all this stuff over and over again, and I do it badly, if at all I fill out forms badly. I choose from drop down lists badly. The question was we believe that I guess the attitude has been. We believe that. And this is actually kind of our AI statement. We believe that that AI has the potential to transform the business and practice of law for the betterment of our professionals and and create client value and click create well-being wellness value to take that noise out of people's lives to take. I have to stop what I'm doing, and find the form and open it and make it, you know. Pdf, it, and then type stuff into it. Why am I doing this over and over again. Can you create an environment that's data enabled that automates some of these things or remediates them or cleans them up or groups them? The way I need them, and the answer is increasingly, yes, we're going to go in these directions for you.
Morgan Llewellyn: So let me let me ask you a hard, a seemingly hard question. I'm not like it's not a gotcha question or anything like that I'm just curious what you think so well-being again. I've heard this from, you know other people, and and that's not to, you know. Disparage. It's actually, hey, no, this is important, and we should be talking about it. The challenge is how do we measure this? And can you actually put this in front of, you know, an Advisory board and executive board and say, there's value here in just well-being. Yes, okay. Here's the Roi and some of these other things. How do you even communicate well-being like? How do you communicate that? That seems hard to me. That's why I mean, it's a hard question like, or is it a? It's an also thing. But you got to justify the numbers st and foremost, and this is just a benefit. How do you think about that?
Emily Rushing: Very qualitative, isn't it? I know your numbers brain doesn't like doesn't like that. I think they're the people process part of culture, of strategy. Right? We've now added technology and data. But the people being at the heart of a human centered everything, transformation, strategy, human centered business strategy, human centered innovation. These are, I say, all full contact sports. And so there's the more ephemeral, ineffable right? I heard a good story from an associate who says she's so happy with this new solution. Okay? Right? So we capture those. We call them testimonials. We also, it's early days for for this kind of measurement. But I have had experience, tracking and managing retention. Do people that may have been at risk meaning? They're in a category in a year of their career, or a certain cohort of type of employee that statistically departs the firm at this rate. But following certain key innovation initiatives, that rate leveled off or even went up the retention rate. So there are things like that that you can start to put hard and fast numbers around. It's hard to say, strictly causal, but you can show an indication. People are more satisfied. They stay in their jobs longer. They give good feedback to us whether it's an informal testimonial or formal survey. And that's actually in our innovation department. Strategy is, we want people to be happy at their jobs. So setting that tone and then saying, we're going to look for these clues and these characteristics, and that's how we'll know we're successful has been embraced by our leadership and should be.
Morgan Llewellyn: I love that testimonial right? You're right. I am a numbers person by design, and while I can appreciate the the behavioral aspect, and I know how important the behavioral aspect is. Right. It's how do you communicate the value? And I do think you know testimonials. Not only are they great, because, you know, it's a real person. In a real quote. I think it also addresses one of the challenges that we see which is communication when something is out there. How are we continuing to communicate and engage and get feedback and provide feedback? I I think that's really interesting. You know, Christina, what what are your thoughts and.
Christina Natale: I would just say, I love this comment. I could like literally sit here and eat popcorn or something, and just like, listen to you all day for for sure. But it really spoke to me as well. I love the way you asked the question, and then, when Emily framed it back
for me, you know, workflow redesign. But really understanding user impacts, user drivers, motivations is really important to me, as you know. And I really do. I love the idea that it kind of goes in both directions. It's that
by engaging users and understanding when we think about data, we almost never start in law firms with
practicing lawyers, and how it affects their day, their practice of law, and by starting with
helping them understand how data can improve their practice of law will increase, their buy-in will increase. And and you're going to get again those operational, financial, whatever benefits that are measurable, those success metrics. And you're also going to have happier lawyers, because they understand before they've even done it. They've bought into. This is going to make my life easier. This is going to help me provide better and more exciting and innovative service to my clients. So I just think it's a win win all around. I love the way that you all described it.
Morgan Llewellyn: So. So let me ask you a question, Emily, this is, gonna you know, this is, gonna be the let's pick Emily's brain session. And and we're probably gonna need more of these. So let me ask you a question. So all right, I'm at a law firm. And I want to start a data transformation strategy. you know. Where do I start? Or is the reality at most? Law firms already started? And you know, here's some of the early lessons or that type of thing. So you know, where would you start? Or, you know, if most firms are already kind of on this journey already? What do you think? The early kind of feedback? The early results are looking like? You know what to do, more of what to do, less of that type of thing.
Emily Rushing: It's a really mixed bag. That's a great question. It's a mixed bag. Firms vary greatly, both in their composition right? But mostly the differences. I think when I think about transformation and innovation practices and firms, it sounds kind of hokey and simple, but really starting with a clear strategy. What is the vision? What is the goal? Coupled with a deep understanding of the culture? And I like the phrase, radical honesty.
We all humans struggle with really, really being honest with ourselves about who we are and what we are and what we're not, and you can't transform, unless you start with a very clear understanding of where you are today, and a very clear understanding, you know, we say leadership, buy-in, etc, etc. But a really clear understanding that the culture, meaning from leadership on down every in the firm, the way you act, the way you do things, the way you treat each other, the way you collaborate or don't right. Firms vary that, plus your strategy that needs to inform your strategy. Your strategy needs to be informed by that, and you can't talk about what you're going to do to change until you've agreed to a very clear eyed, sometimes painfully honest assessment of where you've come from, where you are. And I think that's where people get a little humans as well right. No one likes trying on swimsuits right? This is not what I wanted to see law firms. I have to say, you know we are. We are good at security. We are not good at collaboration. Right? That's an example. You can start from that place if you admit to that. And I'm not saying that's my organization or anyone organization. But if you admit to those things you can say, Okay, what are our strong suits? How do we? How do we remediate some challenges? We're gonna face? And now we can set reasonable goals. Now we can say a year from now. We would like to. and years, and in years we'll be there. I think there's a lot about. I've certainly been reading and educating myself around this human centric design and design disciplines, and that honesty also coming with psychological safety when leadership teams and teams that are working on. Okay, we're going to change. We're going to disrupt. And I like the cartoon where they're they're trying to change the tire of the car while they're driving it, you know, because you're still running a big, active business and servicing your clients, and everything's still going on. You don't go time out world. We're gonna innovate. Now, you you're doing everything you normally do. While also trying to change the tires of the car that's flying down the highway at miles an hour. You can't set reasonable goals. If people aren't saying aren't safe to say. if we fix this they'll make all the difference over there. But I have to know. My idea will be heard that I can be brought into the conversation. Maybe I'm not the most technical person, but I do all the data entry for the marketing department, and I don't really know all this other stuff you're talking about. Am I safe to come in here and give my ideas. I think they'll help right. But you have to create in your culture the way your culture works. You have to create an environment where people can get up to speed, can become fluent, can have a voice, can be safe, can be institutionally recognized and rewarded as well. Right. And you can't start a transformation journey until you've done that, truly, in my opinion. But a lot of firms and I'm gonna pick on not any one person but- but there are firms and companies I'll pick on law firms whose strategy is to put out a press release done, innovation executed. I bought a thing, and I put out a press release. And now we can all go back to our day jobs. And I'm being facetious. But honestly, there's a lot of that going around. Okay, we did. We did transformation. We did innovation. Look at us. We're on the front page of the, you know, American lawyer with our big press release. But under the hood there's not the engagement. The culture has not been reformulated to enable that there's no measuring of outcome or output. You know. How do you know that did anything for your for your bottom line? For people's satisfaction? You know how? What, how is that aligned to a real strategy? And the answer is kind of what the goal was just to say. We did it.
Morgan Llewellyn: I think you said something really interesting. Well, I think you said multiple things really interesting. But I'm just gonna pick on the the most recent one, where, you know, we bought a thing right in checkmark. and I think it's worth kind of talking about that a little bit, because buying a thing isn't necessarily a bad. You know that buying products and buying tools that is part of this transformation strategy. For sure, there's a component of that. But I think what you're getting at is that's not enough right? Especially, for you know, large law firms buying everything. And here I'm may be putting words in your mouth, so I'll I'll state something. Then you feel free to kind of push back against it, or let me, you know, kind of know your thoughts, but it's buying tools enough for a large law firm. How do they to, you know, kind of reference, something you said earlier. How do you know, how do large law firms, Holland and knights, etc? How do they basically provide something a Holland and Knight way that they can't get somewhere else like, how do they? You know, how do they differentiate themselves? Can they do that? Just buying tools? When you think about data transformation? Are you thinking like? Is there more than tools like, how how do you think about putting that fingerprint? Kind of on a on a work product? What's your.
Emily Rushing: Yeah, you have to buy stuff. Of course, we're big, best in class, enormous multinational multibillion dollar enterprise. We're running a big business here. You gotta buy stuff. I think the disconnect that you hear about anecdotally is it came down from on high. We got to do AI, so we're real quick and look around. And there's or products, and we're going to pick one and sign up with it. Put out a press release and then really neglect the change and transformation, the human centered aspects of that right? Really, you can neglect that. You can neglect the client messaging. Did anyone think about how we explain to the client who is scared of AI why we're on the front page of American lawyers talking about AI. Has anybody consulted with that client relationship team? Have we worked out the messaging? What about pricing? What about the clients? They're gonna call? And say, I understand you automated away associates. So I hereby mandate. You no longer charge me for associate time or paralegal time. You bought a product? I saw it in the news. Has anyone thought about all the other things it takes to bring your entire organization and the clients you represent and the people that comprise the organization because we're professional services. That's all we know. It's time and minds. How have you brought them all into that discussion? Prepared them for the publicity, and then taken them through the change to their workflow, and and I'll pause in a moment. But the
one of our main observations thus far and working with automation tools, and I include Gen. AI Chat type stuff. And it's just automation tools, right? one of the most not surprising, but most really like profound, impactful realization. We've had working with hundreds of lawyers over months and months and months? Is the coaching or the planning, or the professional development, or the the lawyer leadership need for involvement. In what do I do with the time I used to spend doing this task that's now automated away. That's not an instant pivot on a dime. I mean, you can't suddenly give me back of my my, you know half of my work week and expect me to instantly reposition my activities to strategic. I mean, we say these and oh, you'll just be more strategic great on what has anybody coached me into what you know? Oh, well, you'll just do more business development with your clients. With that time you used to spend typing into forms. Okay, but I don't have a dashboard for that. Nobody's thought about enabling me for that. I never really spent that time. My clients would be shocked that I'm flying to Cleveland to see them, because I've never done that before, right? That doesn't happen overnight. That doesn't turn on a dime. That's not something. People instantly go. Okay. Great. Now, this magical backlog of strategic creative activities that I've been neglecting to do in my work. Life will all suddenly just flow in to fill the alternative time. I'll be coaching my associates. Who do you know how to coach an associate? Nope never done it before? Why did we think you would suddenly occupy yourself with that? So we're missing a lot of pieces around it in the again. I'm being facetious, the buyer thing, and put out a press release. If you don't have a lot of those other things and things we're not even thinking of yet. These technologies are so new. These changes to our workforce behaviors are so new unless you're prepared holistically to bracket up and brace up all the other pieces of the workflow that are disrupted, and a person psychological disruption, change fatigue. Right? If if you're not really taking all of that into account and then measuring the outcomes. Is this continuing to work, or people still happy? All the things we talked about? I don't know that you could effectively transform on that basis.
Morgan Llewellyn: So I'm making a mental list of how data touches all these different topics you're talking about, right? Because you know, maybe to an outside observer. Hey? We're talking about well-being, hey? We're talking about you know how an attorney's time is is being, you know, reported and represented right. We're talking about. You know, chat bots that might have access to data. All these things are touching data.
Emily Rushing: %, and I'm using them almost anonymously. It did not make that clear. Nothing. I just referenced works.
Morgan Llewellyn: Without data. And so I I mean one of the, I guess one of the things that you know. If you haven't figured out what data can be available to AI? What, what can you know? Has your client given you permission? Can you know? Can this AI use this data? You're you're dead in the water until you've done that. But even on the back end something you said, if you don't even have the dashboards to, if if you don't have an idea to think about how you're gonna represent people's time. because assume that we start with a fixed fee. Right? Hey? We're gonna go address, fixed fee. We're gonna use AI for fixed fee. This is easy, right? that attorney still has to represent their time, and they're still being measured by their time. And even though it's more profitable. the optics of what they're doing.
Emily Rushing: I'm fine, because then your time has to be accurately classified in order to have meaningful reports. And that's an example of AI helping to solve that problem, thereby improving people's satisfaction, improving accuracy, which has been then more accurate data appearing in your dashboard. So you're making smarter decisions about how to price, for example, or staff or upskill. Someone? Right? Yes. But again, data is at the heart of the engine. We're talking about. None of it happens without data.
Morgan Llewellyn: So if you were, you know, if you were to think about a couple of things right? Of okay, you're maybe you're not starting your transformation journey because I think a lot of firms. Have they tried things right? Or or you know, some have been successful transforming parts. But you know what are the main components like if you had to generate buckets right? Of if I'm thinking about data transformation right in true data transformation, what are those buckets that you might think about or address? Sorry, Christina.
Christina Natale: It's like the perfect segue. So it's like you read my mind. I was just going to say it really sounds like the risk to avoid here is not having a strategy, not building a real strategy. And now the next question to Emily is like, Tell us what a real strategy should include what are the components of a good data strategy.
Emily Rushing: Yeah, well, and and strategy at its heart, I think, is one of those words like synergy. They get thrown around. Everybody nods sagely, like they understand, and then they don't, or I certainly never did. It's in my job title now, so I feel like I have to be able to articulate it, but at its heart strategy is things to do and not do. It's just a way to make decisions right? So you law firm websites where the best, at everything, to everyone, everywhere in the world, all the time, forever. That's the mission statement of the firm. Well, some parts of that can't possibly be true? Right? So starting with. who are we really? And what could we be doing to make the most impact? I think really practical terms. So understanding. okay, we have a very strict oh, here, here we go. We're extremely collaborative. Right? So okay, knowing that I know that data initiatives that require cross team functionality are likely to deliver value very quickly in this environment. Right? So this is more of a prioritization thing. I think, kind of to combine the questions. I would say almost everything but technology before, in making a list of buckets, culture, leadership boots on the ground cataloging governance, right? Not security. I mean governance right? I diagnostics. What's where? What are we struggling with understanding the people getting that all has to have that takes months and years right, and that that all would happen before anyone even mentions the software. In my opinion.
Morgan Llewellyn: I really like that approach of what do we do? Well, right? What does so back to that, you know. Kind of earlier conversation around, how do you use, AI? How do you use things to things to differentiate yourself? How do you use a data transformation? Well, how are you differentiating yourself today. And let's double down on that and I that's A, I I don't think, I've, heard anyone say it like that before. And that's a really clever idea, like a a great approach.
Emily Rushing: And you can think about culture almost as your organizational personality. And again, just like all of us humans, that sounds daunting. Oh, you know I'm not an anthropologist. What do I know about cultures? Oh, my gosh, but you can kind of frame a personality of the organization something like being collaborative. It can also be attributes like humility or arrogance. Right? Is this an environment where nobody can tell you nothing. Right? Like everybody knows that everybody's the smartest. Everybody knows everything, and nobody wants to be taught, much less trained. Can't say people need literacy right? That culturally will not fly so it can be even kind of characterized around by and large as a whole. As an operating organism, we have the characteristic or personality trait of being fairly humble, meaning programs designed around literacy could succeed, we would be able to absorb that as an organization, and that, like strategy just does it? Do I do this, or this is informed by a good strategy culture you can just think about. If it was a person, what would be the personality? Traits of your organization.
Morgan Llewellyn: Oh, okay.
Christina Natale: Oh, awesome! Oh, sorry! Morgan!
Morgan Llewellyn: I was, gonna say, what's really nice about that is, it also helps you figure out how to eat the elephant right data transformation data warehouse like, whenever you throw in data, it can get so big. And so, you know, multi year and expect. And it gets really hard to explain the value of data, transformation strategy? But if you're able to map it to, what do we do? Well, in just the way law firms think about, you know, systems and tools, and like, who owns what data it allows you to start carving things up a little bit to be able to show progress. And, you know, kind of tangible progress over discrete things that reinforce the the value of the organization. So I do like that. Kind of approaching. I think that makes a lot of sense, Christine. I'm sorry.
Christina Natale: No, that's okay. I got excited. I was joking earlier, but like this stuff is exciting and hearing, you know, hearing you talk about. You know how it actually affects people thinking about your comment on like culture, and as you know, it brings me back to your earlier point about attorney well-being and how we help attorneys think about. Like to your point. Okay, I've got this magic half of my time back, like, what am I going to do with it in reality. Some of attorney well-being and displeasure at, you know, with our jobs, with being lawyers is. I'm doing all of these manual things that are like taking up all of my time, and I can't think strategically. And I can't do all these things, so are they magically going to know what to do? No, but going back to well-being and going back to what excites lawyers, what makes them feel valued, what helps them feel valued by their clients by providing high level strategic service. All of it has, I feel like has come full circle to me. And again, as a lawyer. I never thought about data like I never thought about how it impacted. My, you know my day, my practice of law. And again going back to like understanding. What is the culture part of that might be, you know, being data driven, you know, that might be part of the culture is really helping every stakeholder in the various, whether it's and I know, Morgan, we always say the business of law, or the practice of law, or both. How do they? How do we let that data drive us to better outcomes, including well-being, including improving our culture.
Emily Rushing: That can actually be a kind of a success metric as well, you know, not so much. not specific to any firm or any role. But but as backend data, people that now are in the spotlight, but historically kind of the Mo. Was. If I'm doing my job really well, you never know I'm here. You didn't think about it. That sync happened, that dashboard updated and the report looked good, and you got your time entered, and you clocked out, put your purse on your shoulder, and walked away, and never knew any of that. How any of that happened, or what was going on behind the scenes. It's just it's just seamless and smooth, and you're not having to stop and go. Wait. Why is this wrong? And why do you keep sending me this spreadsheet that has wrong every time you send it to me. You know what I mean. So that can be back to kind of measuring success, you know, reduced interruptions or reduced admin time across the firm. Not just lawyers. That that can be a measure of success absolutely. You never knew I was here.
Morgan Llewellyn: Well, I I know we're coming up on time. You know, Emily, if if you had some sage wisdom, you know, or if you could wave a magic wand right and and make, you know, make one problem go away or to tackle one problem or to give advice to someone kind of in a similar role. What would that be? You know what? What's what's something that you've seen truly make a difference kind of, you know, for either you your team, your firm, you know. Do you have any thoughts? There.
Emily Rushing: I would just suggest that you get practical. We said, start with things you're good at. You could also come into a role or come into a new initiative and be focused. I mean, this is another approach. But be focused on an immediate pain point. Right? You are here. We're airlifting you in to fix this this data. Silo is shutting the firm down. Can you sort out how we need to untangle this right practical things? Pick things that again the firm is ready for, and and you are ready for that is practical and doable, I think, where people get frustrated or a little lost is. I'm doing something that the narrative arc of what I'm doing is years, and we all have those. There's a narrative arc of years. I can't go in a black box for years and not show anything. So let's pick up a shovel and and start digging some holes where they're needed. And then that traction builds. But you've built some goodwill. You've built some relationships. You've solved some problems. So work practically work and nothing's too small. When you're st starting on a transformation initiative.
Morgan Llewellyn: But I.
Christina Natale: Also built some data. So it's kind of self referential, like, Cycle of like, Hey, we're showing value by creating data that shows value.
Emily Rushing: And then you prove to anyone else. Hey, look! I'm capable our team can do this for you like. Look, here's our tracker. Call them if you don't believe me, it was a little. Was it just one niche thing in one little department, one little problem and some software they were migrating. They didn't know what they had in it. Fine, that nothing's too small. Let's just fix a problem that we know we can do.
Morgan Llewellyn: So. So I I like that in that. If you really want to innovate right, let's say, let's say your goal. Your vision is to innovate in law firms with generative AI. That's not where you start. Start small, start practical, start with the data, get those small wins. But that is a stepping stone to the ultimate vision, and to be successful. Be practical. I think that those are. Those are really wise words only.
Emily Rushing: I could talk about this all day. Thank you all, Brian.
Christina Natale: I wish we could seriously. I love it. And I loved Morgan. The way that you really just kind of brought it all together very succinctly. I love just thinking about it at a high level like that.
Morgan Llewellyn: That's all. Emily.
Christina Natale: I know. I know there's no need.
Morgan Llewellyn: That's all I'm like.
Christina Natale: I always love, and I always say that you know my job. I always feel like I'm a translator between the legal and and the tech technology sides. And I love everything about this conversation because both of you are so good at that, too. It just feels easy. And and you almost don't even think about that. We're talking. You know, you're talking about something super technical. So I love the way that you we're able to just get it out eloquently Emily and then Morgan kind of bringing it all together. I love that. We've talked about a lot of really important things to kind of avoid not having a strategy, not understanding your stakeholders, not having, you know, success metrics kind of the inverse or the risk to to embrace, is really digging deep understanding, your firm, your culture, your people building a strategy around, you know, eliminating the biases and the things that we, you know maybe don't think about that are holding us back. And then I think, the last one that you just really articulated Morgan. But to bring it all home, risk to consider is starting somewhere, just finding something that is a you know. A quick win that is, you know, can show some value getting moving on your journey. So you've covered a lot in the time we've had, Emily I working all day.
Emily Rushing: Yeah, I could. Don't look for perfection. Get in the way of progress.
Christina Natale: Love, that.
Morgan Llewellyn: Well, thank you so much, Emily. I hope we'll have you on again in the future. You know this was really great, and you know I'll sign off with just letting my mom know I love her as usual, and you know, Christina, can you take us home.
Christina Natale: Yeah, thank you so much, Emily. We have loved having you here. I'm sure our listeners are just like absolutely thrilled to hear someone other than just me and Morgan, and get those perspectives we love being able to connect not only why technology matters, but why it really matters in the law to law firms, to legal departments. And so we have really enjoyed having your perspective. And I agree we'd love to have you back anytime. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time on the law, and Coder podcast.
Morgan Llewellyn: Hi! Everyone.
Christina Natale: We're going to talk today about a really exciting topic. And I say that earnestly, because I know that as soon as we say the words out loud. It probably doesn't sound super sexy and exciting. But we're going to talk today about data transformation strategy. You look excited. Morgan.
Morgan Llewellyn: Yeah. So today, we're going to be talking about data transformation strategy as it pertains to law firms. And we're really lucky to have you know a Co. You know, co-presenter today a co-host, you know, in Emily, rushing. You know, just a dear friend. And really, you know, an expert in the field, and you know a wealth of knowledge, so you know, really excited to have her, and I'll introduce her here in a second, or let her introduce herself. But you know, data transformation strategy. Why, we're talking about this today is if we think about the role of data traditionally in law firms, it really was security focused. We have to keep our client data secure. And that was, you know, kind of the st through the th mandate. And you know almost the only mandate at some level. And over time that mandate hasn't changed. It's still one through The data has to be secure. But now what we've been finding is really there is some additional mandates. How do we generate value for the business operations using our data? How do we generate new and additional value for our clients through new and differentiated work product that is informed by data. And so we're starting to see a need to use data not just for security and keep it secure. But to use that data to help transform the business and really to help transform the work product and bring clients additional value. And so that's why we have Emily rushing with us today. Emily joins us from Holland tonight, and I'll let you introduce yourself, Emily. I'm just. I'm thrilled to see you again. She's a dear friend, and I really respect her and her opinion and you know, just her expertise. So thank you, Emily, for joining us? You know. Tell introduce yourself for the folks on on the call.
Emily Rushing: Thank you. Thank you for the kind introduction. The feeling is mutual. A friend of the podcast. Friend of hike, too. And you guys aren't sick of seeing me yet. So that's great news. Hi! Everyone thanks so much for having me. My name is Emily rushing. I'm the director of data strategy for Holland and Knight. I have more than years law, firm experience, the last of which have been in data, data, analytics, intelligence, technology, innovation focused roles. So I joined Holland and IA year and a half almost ago to a newly created knowledge and innovation department. Our first, st ever chief knowledge and innovation officer and part of the vision for our knowledge and innovation function. My data strategy group included, really reflected the firm's
massive growth. So like a lot of firms. We've gotten very big, very complex, very geographically diverse, very diverse in terms of our practices and everything, Morgan said, as far as protecting our client data and being compliant with everything we need to be compliant with. There's a recognition now that we have to differentiate ourselves in the market, right? We have to do things the Holland and way that attract our clients that retain our clients. They know and trust and appreciate our work product over another firms, but the same also with our people. So in order to attract and retain the right talent, the best talent, culture is really important. The spirit of innovation is really important, understanding our firm strategy, having leadership, setting the tone and then providing a technology enabled work environment where people are happy and satisfied with their jobs and doing their best work to their highest and best value. So that's kind of a new tone for law firms to take over the course of my career. I've been pleased to see us going in the direction of having those thoughts, but it's an exciting time to be in legal technology. It's an exciting time to be talking about law firm data. It's the st time my job has ever been cool.
Morgan Llewellyn: You know, I'm like.
Christina Natale: Thing we need, we.
Morgan Llewellyn: That's clear.
Christina Natale: Yeah, outro music. We're good to go.
Morgan Llewellyn: No, I think you said something in there, Emily, that resonated with me because I have heard this, but not so eloquently in other places around the role of people's happiness. And how data and new tools can impact happiness at law firms. How do you see the impact of data actually improving the well-being. Let's let's take a very broad right? The well-being or happiness of people. Yeah, keep about that.
Emily Rushing: I go around the firm. Last year we hosted an all lawyers meeting. We conducted an innovation lab. I stood on my feet. My feet hurt just remembering it, but it was so engaging we had hundreds, my estimates closer to lawyers. It was certainly hundreds coming up asking us, how will AI take bad data out of my life? Improve data quality? How will it automate the creation of data? Why am I doing the same manual. I say, hands on keyboard. Why am I? Tippity tap, tap, tapping all this stuff over and over again, and I do it badly, if at all I fill out forms badly. I choose from drop down lists badly. The question was we believe that I guess the attitude has been. We believe that. And this is actually kind of our AI statement. We believe that that AI has the potential to transform the business and practice of law for the betterment of our professionals and and create client value and click create well-being wellness value to take that noise out of people's lives to take. I have to stop what I'm doing, and find the form and open it and make it, you know. Pdf, it, and then type stuff into it. Why am I doing this over and over again. Can you create an environment that's data enabled that automates some of these things or remediates them or cleans them up or groups them? The way I need them, and the answer is increasingly, yes, we're going to go in these directions for you.
Morgan Llewellyn: So let me let me ask you a hard, a seemingly hard question. I'm not like it's not a gotcha question or anything like that I'm just curious what you think so well-being again. I've heard this from, you know other people, and and that's not to, you know. Disparage. It's actually, hey, no, this is important, and we should be talking about it. The challenge is how do we measure this? And can you actually put this in front of, you know, an Advisory board and executive board and say, there's value here in just well-being. Yes, okay. Here's the Roi and some of these other things. How do you even communicate well-being like? How do you communicate that? That seems hard to me. That's why I mean, it's a hard question like, or is it a? It's an also thing. But you got to justify the numbers st and foremost, and this is just a benefit. How do you think about that?
Emily Rushing: Very qualitative, isn't it? I know your numbers brain doesn't like doesn't like that. I think they're the people process part of culture, of strategy. Right? We've now added technology and data. But the people being at the heart of a human centered everything, transformation, strategy, human centered business strategy, human centered innovation. These are, I say, all full contact sports. And so there's the more ephemeral, ineffable right? I heard a good story from an associate who says she's so happy with this new solution. Okay? Right? So we capture those. We call them testimonials. We also, it's early days for for this kind of measurement. But I have had experience, tracking and managing retention. Do people that may have been at risk meaning? They're in a category in a year of their career, or a certain cohort of type of employee that statistically departs the firm at this rate. But following certain key innovation initiatives, that rate leveled off or even went up the retention rate. So there are things like that that you can start to put hard and fast numbers around. It's hard to say, strictly causal, but you can show an indication. People are more satisfied. They stay in their jobs longer. They give good feedback to us whether it's an informal testimonial or formal survey. And that's actually in our innovation department. Strategy is, we want people to be happy at their jobs. So setting that tone and then saying, we're going to look for these clues and these characteristics, and that's how we'll know we're successful has been embraced by our leadership and should be.
Morgan Llewellyn: I love that testimonial right? You're right. I am a numbers person by design, and while I can appreciate the the behavioral aspect, and I know how important the behavioral aspect is. Right. It's how do you communicate the value? And I do think you know testimonials. Not only are they great, because, you know, it's a real person. In a real quote. I think it also addresses one of the challenges that we see which is communication when something is out there. How are we continuing to communicate and engage and get feedback and provide feedback? I I think that's really interesting. You know, Christina, what what are your thoughts and.
Christina Natale: I would just say, I love this comment. I could like literally sit here and eat popcorn or something, and just like, listen to you all day for for sure. But it really spoke to me as well. I love the way you asked the question, and then, when Emily framed it back
for me, you know, workflow redesign. But really understanding user impacts, user drivers, motivations is really important to me, as you know. And I really do. I love the idea that it kind of goes in both directions. It's that
by engaging users and understanding when we think about data, we almost never start in law firms with
practicing lawyers, and how it affects their day, their practice of law, and by starting with
helping them understand how data can improve their practice of law will increase, their buy-in will increase. And and you're going to get again those operational, financial, whatever benefits that are measurable, those success metrics. And you're also going to have happier lawyers, because they understand before they've even done it. They've bought into. This is going to make my life easier. This is going to help me provide better and more exciting and innovative service to my clients. So I just think it's a win win all around. I love the way that you all described it.
Morgan Llewellyn: So. So let me ask you a question, Emily, this is, gonna you know, this is, gonna be the let's pick Emily's brain session. And and we're probably gonna need more of these. So let me ask you a question. So all right, I'm at a law firm. And I want to start a data transformation strategy. you know. Where do I start? Or is the reality at most? Law firms already started? And you know, here's some of the early lessons or that type of thing. So you know, where would you start? Or, you know, if most firms are already kind of on this journey already? What do you think? The early kind of feedback? The early results are looking like? You know what to do, more of what to do, less of that type of thing.
Emily Rushing: It's a really mixed bag. That's a great question. It's a mixed bag. Firms vary greatly, both in their composition right? But mostly the differences. I think when I think about transformation and innovation practices and firms, it sounds kind of hokey and simple, but really starting with a clear strategy. What is the vision? What is the goal? Coupled with a deep understanding of the culture? And I like the phrase, radical honesty.
We all humans struggle with really, really being honest with ourselves about who we are and what we are and what we're not, and you can't transform, unless you start with a very clear understanding of where you are today, and a very clear understanding, you know, we say leadership, buy-in, etc, etc. But a really clear understanding that the culture, meaning from leadership on down every in the firm, the way you act, the way you do things, the way you treat each other, the way you collaborate or don't right. Firms vary that, plus your strategy that needs to inform your strategy. Your strategy needs to be informed by that, and you can't talk about what you're going to do to change until you've agreed to a very clear eyed, sometimes painfully honest assessment of where you've come from, where you are. And I think that's where people get a little humans as well right. No one likes trying on swimsuits right? This is not what I wanted to see law firms. I have to say, you know we are. We are good at security. We are not good at collaboration. Right? That's an example. You can start from that place if you admit to that. And I'm not saying that's my organization or anyone organization. But if you admit to those things you can say, Okay, what are our strong suits? How do we? How do we remediate some challenges? We're gonna face? And now we can set reasonable goals. Now we can say a year from now. We would like to. and years, and in years we'll be there. I think there's a lot about. I've certainly been reading and educating myself around this human centric design and design disciplines, and that honesty also coming with psychological safety when leadership teams and teams that are working on. Okay, we're going to change. We're going to disrupt. And I like the cartoon where they're they're trying to change the tire of the car while they're driving it, you know, because you're still running a big, active business and servicing your clients, and everything's still going on. You don't go time out world. We're gonna innovate. Now, you you're doing everything you normally do. While also trying to change the tires of the car that's flying down the highway at miles an hour. You can't set reasonable goals. If people aren't saying aren't safe to say. if we fix this they'll make all the difference over there. But I have to know. My idea will be heard that I can be brought into the conversation. Maybe I'm not the most technical person, but I do all the data entry for the marketing department, and I don't really know all this other stuff you're talking about. Am I safe to come in here and give my ideas. I think they'll help right. But you have to create in your culture the way your culture works. You have to create an environment where people can get up to speed, can become fluent, can have a voice, can be safe, can be institutionally recognized and rewarded as well. Right. And you can't start a transformation journey until you've done that, truly, in my opinion. But a lot of firms and I'm gonna pick on not any one person but- but there are firms and companies I'll pick on law firms whose strategy is to put out a press release done, innovation executed. I bought a thing, and I put out a press release. And now we can all go back to our day jobs. And I'm being facetious. But honestly, there's a lot of that going around. Okay, we did. We did transformation. We did innovation. Look at us. We're on the front page of the, you know, American lawyer with our big press release. But under the hood there's not the engagement. The culture has not been reformulated to enable that there's no measuring of outcome or output. You know. How do you know that did anything for your for your bottom line? For people's satisfaction? You know how? What, how is that aligned to a real strategy? And the answer is kind of what the goal was just to say. We did it.
Morgan Llewellyn: I think you said something really interesting. Well, I think you said multiple things really interesting. But I'm just gonna pick on the the most recent one, where, you know, we bought a thing right in checkmark. and I think it's worth kind of talking about that a little bit, because buying a thing isn't necessarily a bad. You know that buying products and buying tools that is part of this transformation strategy. For sure, there's a component of that. But I think what you're getting at is that's not enough right? Especially, for you know, large law firms buying everything. And here I'm may be putting words in your mouth, so I'll I'll state something. Then you feel free to kind of push back against it, or let me, you know, kind of know your thoughts, but it's buying tools enough for a large law firm. How do they to, you know, kind of reference, something you said earlier. How do you know, how do large law firms, Holland and knights, etc? How do they basically provide something a Holland and Knight way that they can't get somewhere else like, how do they? You know, how do they differentiate themselves? Can they do that? Just buying tools? When you think about data transformation? Are you thinking like? Is there more than tools like, how how do you think about putting that fingerprint? Kind of on a on a work product? What's your.
Emily Rushing: Yeah, you have to buy stuff. Of course, we're big, best in class, enormous multinational multibillion dollar enterprise. We're running a big business here. You gotta buy stuff. I think the disconnect that you hear about anecdotally is it came down from on high. We got to do AI, so we're real quick and look around. And there's or products, and we're going to pick one and sign up with it. Put out a press release and then really neglect the change and transformation, the human centered aspects of that right? Really, you can neglect that. You can neglect the client messaging. Did anyone think about how we explain to the client who is scared of AI why we're on the front page of American lawyers talking about AI. Has anybody consulted with that client relationship team? Have we worked out the messaging? What about pricing? What about the clients? They're gonna call? And say, I understand you automated away associates. So I hereby mandate. You no longer charge me for associate time or paralegal time. You bought a product? I saw it in the news. Has anyone thought about all the other things it takes to bring your entire organization and the clients you represent and the people that comprise the organization because we're professional services. That's all we know. It's time and minds. How have you brought them all into that discussion? Prepared them for the publicity, and then taken them through the change to their workflow, and and I'll pause in a moment. But the
one of our main observations thus far and working with automation tools, and I include Gen. AI Chat type stuff. And it's just automation tools, right? one of the most not surprising, but most really like profound, impactful realization. We've had working with hundreds of lawyers over months and months and months? Is the coaching or the planning, or the professional development, or the the lawyer leadership need for involvement. In what do I do with the time I used to spend doing this task that's now automated away. That's not an instant pivot on a dime. I mean, you can't suddenly give me back of my my, you know half of my work week and expect me to instantly reposition my activities to strategic. I mean, we say these and oh, you'll just be more strategic great on what has anybody coached me into what you know? Oh, well, you'll just do more business development with your clients. With that time you used to spend typing into forms. Okay, but I don't have a dashboard for that. Nobody's thought about enabling me for that. I never really spent that time. My clients would be shocked that I'm flying to Cleveland to see them, because I've never done that before, right? That doesn't happen overnight. That doesn't turn on a dime. That's not something. People instantly go. Okay. Great. Now, this magical backlog of strategic creative activities that I've been neglecting to do in my work. Life will all suddenly just flow in to fill the alternative time. I'll be coaching my associates. Who do you know how to coach an associate? Nope never done it before? Why did we think you would suddenly occupy yourself with that? So we're missing a lot of pieces around it in the again. I'm being facetious, the buyer thing, and put out a press release. If you don't have a lot of those other things and things we're not even thinking of yet. These technologies are so new. These changes to our workforce behaviors are so new unless you're prepared holistically to bracket up and brace up all the other pieces of the workflow that are disrupted, and a person psychological disruption, change fatigue. Right? If if you're not really taking all of that into account and then measuring the outcomes. Is this continuing to work, or people still happy? All the things we talked about? I don't know that you could effectively transform on that basis.
Morgan Llewellyn: So I'm making a mental list of how data touches all these different topics you're talking about, right? Because you know, maybe to an outside observer. Hey? We're talking about well-being, hey? We're talking about you know how an attorney's time is is being, you know, reported and represented right. We're talking about. You know, chat bots that might have access to data. All these things are touching data.
Emily Rushing: %, and I'm using them almost anonymously. It did not make that clear. Nothing. I just referenced works.
Morgan Llewellyn: Without data. And so I I mean one of the, I guess one of the things that you know. If you haven't figured out what data can be available to AI? What, what can you know? Has your client given you permission? Can you know? Can this AI use this data? You're you're dead in the water until you've done that. But even on the back end something you said, if you don't even have the dashboards to, if if you don't have an idea to think about how you're gonna represent people's time. because assume that we start with a fixed fee. Right? Hey? We're gonna go address, fixed fee. We're gonna use AI for fixed fee. This is easy, right? that attorney still has to represent their time, and they're still being measured by their time. And even though it's more profitable. the optics of what they're doing.
Emily Rushing: I'm fine, because then your time has to be accurately classified in order to have meaningful reports. And that's an example of AI helping to solve that problem, thereby improving people's satisfaction, improving accuracy, which has been then more accurate data appearing in your dashboard. So you're making smarter decisions about how to price, for example, or staff or upskill. Someone? Right? Yes. But again, data is at the heart of the engine. We're talking about. None of it happens without data.
Morgan Llewellyn: So if you were, you know, if you were to think about a couple of things right? Of okay, you're maybe you're not starting your transformation journey because I think a lot of firms. Have they tried things right? Or or you know, some have been successful transforming parts. But you know what are the main components like if you had to generate buckets right? Of if I'm thinking about data transformation right in true data transformation, what are those buckets that you might think about or address? Sorry, Christina.
Christina Natale: It's like the perfect segue. So it's like you read my mind. I was just going to say it really sounds like the risk to avoid here is not having a strategy, not building a real strategy. And now the next question to Emily is like, Tell us what a real strategy should include what are the components of a good data strategy.
Emily Rushing: Yeah, well, and and strategy at its heart, I think, is one of those words like synergy. They get thrown around. Everybody nods sagely, like they understand, and then they don't, or I certainly never did. It's in my job title now, so I feel like I have to be able to articulate it, but at its heart strategy is things to do and not do. It's just a way to make decisions right? So you law firm websites where the best, at everything, to everyone, everywhere in the world, all the time, forever. That's the mission statement of the firm. Well, some parts of that can't possibly be true? Right? So starting with. who are we really? And what could we be doing to make the most impact? I think really practical terms. So understanding. okay, we have a very strict oh, here, here we go. We're extremely collaborative. Right? So okay, knowing that I know that data initiatives that require cross team functionality are likely to deliver value very quickly in this environment. Right? So this is more of a prioritization thing. I think, kind of to combine the questions. I would say almost everything but technology before, in making a list of buckets, culture, leadership boots on the ground cataloging governance, right? Not security. I mean governance right? I diagnostics. What's where? What are we struggling with understanding the people getting that all has to have that takes months and years right, and that that all would happen before anyone even mentions the software. In my opinion.
Morgan Llewellyn: I really like that approach of what do we do? Well, right? What does so back to that, you know. Kind of earlier conversation around, how do you use, AI? How do you use things to things to differentiate yourself? How do you use a data transformation? Well, how are you differentiating yourself today. And let's double down on that and I that's A, I I don't think, I've, heard anyone say it like that before. And that's a really clever idea, like a a great approach.
Emily Rushing: And you can think about culture almost as your organizational personality. And again, just like all of us humans, that sounds daunting. Oh, you know I'm not an anthropologist. What do I know about cultures? Oh, my gosh, but you can kind of frame a personality of the organization something like being collaborative. It can also be attributes like humility or arrogance. Right? Is this an environment where nobody can tell you nothing. Right? Like everybody knows that everybody's the smartest. Everybody knows everything, and nobody wants to be taught, much less trained. Can't say people need literacy right? That culturally will not fly so it can be even kind of characterized around by and large as a whole. As an operating organism, we have the characteristic or personality trait of being fairly humble, meaning programs designed around literacy could succeed, we would be able to absorb that as an organization, and that, like strategy just does it? Do I do this, or this is informed by a good strategy culture you can just think about. If it was a person, what would be the personality? Traits of your organization.
Morgan Llewellyn: Oh, okay.
Christina Natale: Oh, awesome! Oh, sorry! Morgan!
Morgan Llewellyn: I was, gonna say, what's really nice about that is, it also helps you figure out how to eat the elephant right data transformation data warehouse like, whenever you throw in data, it can get so big. And so, you know, multi year and expect. And it gets really hard to explain the value of data, transformation strategy? But if you're able to map it to, what do we do? Well, in just the way law firms think about, you know, systems and tools, and like, who owns what data it allows you to start carving things up a little bit to be able to show progress. And, you know, kind of tangible progress over discrete things that reinforce the the value of the organization. So I do like that. Kind of approaching. I think that makes a lot of sense, Christine. I'm sorry.
Christina Natale: No, that's okay. I got excited. I was joking earlier, but like this stuff is exciting and hearing, you know, hearing you talk about. You know how it actually affects people thinking about your comment on like culture, and as you know, it brings me back to your earlier point about attorney well-being and how we help attorneys think about. Like to your point. Okay, I've got this magic half of my time back, like, what am I going to do with it in reality. Some of attorney well-being and displeasure at, you know, with our jobs, with being lawyers is. I'm doing all of these manual things that are like taking up all of my time, and I can't think strategically. And I can't do all these things, so are they magically going to know what to do? No, but going back to well-being and going back to what excites lawyers, what makes them feel valued, what helps them feel valued by their clients by providing high level strategic service. All of it has, I feel like has come full circle to me. And again, as a lawyer. I never thought about data like I never thought about how it impacted. My, you know my day, my practice of law. And again going back to like understanding. What is the culture part of that might be, you know, being data driven, you know, that might be part of the culture is really helping every stakeholder in the various, whether it's and I know, Morgan, we always say the business of law, or the practice of law, or both. How do they? How do we let that data drive us to better outcomes, including well-being, including improving our culture.
Emily Rushing: That can actually be a kind of a success metric as well, you know, not so much. not specific to any firm or any role. But but as backend data, people that now are in the spotlight, but historically kind of the Mo. Was. If I'm doing my job really well, you never know I'm here. You didn't think about it. That sync happened, that dashboard updated and the report looked good, and you got your time entered, and you clocked out, put your purse on your shoulder, and walked away, and never knew any of that. How any of that happened, or what was going on behind the scenes. It's just it's just seamless and smooth, and you're not having to stop and go. Wait. Why is this wrong? And why do you keep sending me this spreadsheet that has wrong every time you send it to me. You know what I mean. So that can be back to kind of measuring success, you know, reduced interruptions or reduced admin time across the firm. Not just lawyers. That that can be a measure of success absolutely. You never knew I was here.
Morgan Llewellyn: Well, I I know we're coming up on time. You know, Emily, if if you had some sage wisdom, you know, or if you could wave a magic wand right and and make, you know, make one problem go away or to tackle one problem or to give advice to someone kind of in a similar role. What would that be? You know what? What's what's something that you've seen truly make a difference kind of, you know, for either you your team, your firm, you know. Do you have any thoughts? There.
Emily Rushing: I would just suggest that you get practical. We said, start with things you're good at. You could also come into a role or come into a new initiative and be focused. I mean, this is another approach. But be focused on an immediate pain point. Right? You are here. We're airlifting you in to fix this this data. Silo is shutting the firm down. Can you sort out how we need to untangle this right practical things? Pick things that again the firm is ready for, and and you are ready for that is practical and doable, I think, where people get frustrated or a little lost is. I'm doing something that the narrative arc of what I'm doing is years, and we all have those. There's a narrative arc of years. I can't go in a black box for years and not show anything. So let's pick up a shovel and and start digging some holes where they're needed. And then that traction builds. But you've built some goodwill. You've built some relationships. You've solved some problems. So work practically work and nothing's too small. When you're st starting on a transformation initiative.
Morgan Llewellyn: But I.
Christina Natale: Also built some data. So it's kind of self referential, like, Cycle of like, Hey, we're showing value by creating data that shows value.
Emily Rushing: And then you prove to anyone else. Hey, look! I'm capable our team can do this for you like. Look, here's our tracker. Call them if you don't believe me, it was a little. Was it just one niche thing in one little department, one little problem and some software they were migrating. They didn't know what they had in it. Fine, that nothing's too small. Let's just fix a problem that we know we can do.
Morgan Llewellyn: So. So I I like that in that. If you really want to innovate right, let's say, let's say your goal. Your vision is to innovate in law firms with generative AI. That's not where you start. Start small, start practical, start with the data, get those small wins. But that is a stepping stone to the ultimate vision, and to be successful. Be practical. I think that those are. Those are really wise words only.
Emily Rushing: I could talk about this all day. Thank you all, Brian.
Christina Natale: I wish we could seriously. I love it. And I loved Morgan. The way that you really just kind of brought it all together very succinctly. I love just thinking about it at a high level like that.
Morgan Llewellyn: That's all. Emily.
Christina Natale: I know. I know there's no need.
Morgan Llewellyn: That's all I'm like.
Christina Natale: I always love, and I always say that you know my job. I always feel like I'm a translator between the legal and and the tech technology sides. And I love everything about this conversation because both of you are so good at that, too. It just feels easy. And and you almost don't even think about that. We're talking. You know, you're talking about something super technical. So I love the way that you we're able to just get it out eloquently Emily and then Morgan kind of bringing it all together. I love that. We've talked about a lot of really important things to kind of avoid not having a strategy, not understanding your stakeholders, not having, you know, success metrics kind of the inverse or the risk to to embrace, is really digging deep understanding, your firm, your culture, your people building a strategy around, you know, eliminating the biases and the things that we, you know maybe don't think about that are holding us back. And then I think, the last one that you just really articulated Morgan. But to bring it all home, risk to consider is starting somewhere, just finding something that is a you know. A quick win that is, you know, can show some value getting moving on your journey. So you've covered a lot in the time we've had, Emily I working all day.
Emily Rushing: Yeah, I could. Don't look for perfection. Get in the way of progress.
Christina Natale: Love, that.
Morgan Llewellyn: Well, thank you so much, Emily. I hope we'll have you on again in the future. You know this was really great, and you know I'll sign off with just letting my mom know I love her as usual, and you know, Christina, can you take us home.
Christina Natale: Yeah, thank you so much, Emily. We have loved having you here. I'm sure our listeners are just like absolutely thrilled to hear someone other than just me and Morgan, and get those perspectives we love being able to connect not only why technology matters, but why it really matters in the law to law firms, to legal departments. And so we have really enjoyed having your perspective. And I agree we'd love to have you back anytime. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time on the law, and Coder podcast.
