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I tried dating last fall and I had a really bad date and he was very obsessed with my being a writer in a way that really made me uncomfortable.
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He was always talking about my writing and I was just like, Ooh, can we just not?
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And during the date he revealed that he was so concerned with impressing me because I'm a writer, that he used chat GPT for all of our text conversations
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Wow.
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Hi, am Meryl Branch Mc tiernan.
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Hi,
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I am
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Ariana McLean and you're listening to It's All Write.
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A podcast about writers
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and the writer and the writing life.
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On today's episode, we are talking to Camille Boxhill She earned her MA over in the UK at the University of Bristol, and we met at the Hurston Wright Foundation Writers' Week held at Howard University.
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Today Camille is joining us from Southern Florida to chat with us about her writing life about all the things she's applied for and where she's at, working on her debut novel.
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Hi Camille.
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Hi.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Camille was a 2024 Florida Fellow of Literary Arts.
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Yeah, it's a mouthful.
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I can't I don't think I've ever really gotten used to saying it.
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So South Arts.
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Literary Fellow for the state of Florida, So basically South Arts is an organization focused on visual and written storytelling in the southern states and they selected a fellow from each state And so I was just grateful to have that.
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Could you tell us what that entails?
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Sometimes it feels like I'm cosplaying as a writer when I say oh, I'm a writer.
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And it's just so where are your lists?
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Where can I read your work?
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And I'm like, oh, I'm a writer, but I'm not there yet.
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And, but this is, this was one of the times that I felt like I actually got to.
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Be in that writer world and people were like, yeah, you are a writer.
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And so all of the fellows were published in an anthology, and then we went to the Mississippi Book Festival.
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And that was essentially my first writer's appearance.
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And we all sat on a panel, which was terrifying for me.
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and then we did a book signing, which again, just felt like i'm playing dress up and I'm at a table doing book signings, but there were people who were there and asking questions and interested in my writing and it just felt weird, but also okay, this is why I want to do this.
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Because people care about what you're writing.
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Amazing.
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I feel like Meryl often has these fantasies about, she has like these fantasies of this writer's world where you're like signing books and going to parties and it seems like you got a little taste.
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Yeah, it was a little taste and I want more of it and then also I think it's fun.
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It's fun going to these places and seeing authors so I went to a reading at Prairie Lights in Iowa City when I was there for a summer workshop and Kaveh Akbar was there and he he facilitated like a discussion and I ran into him at the was it Miami Book Festival, and I was passing and he was like, oh, hey.
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And I had one of those moments.
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I was like, oh my God, you remember me?
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That's so sweet.
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And yeah it's nice to feel like you're taking little baby steps and breaking into this world.
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And it is nice to be a recognizable face in a sea of faces at some of these book festivals.
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And so that's nice.
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So Ariana mentioned you're working on a novel.
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Can you tell us where you are with that novel?
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I'm staring at the printed manuscript.
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It's
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Been there.
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It.
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Is there, I really thought, I'm gonna go to Staples.
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I'm gonna print this thing out and I'm really gonna get to it with the revisions.
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And so there is a first draft and I say it's trash.
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And I know that we're our own, toughest critic, but I did not wanna share it with my agent.
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She is begging me for this.
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She's I know it exists.
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Please let me read it.
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And I was just like, I do not want you to think lesser of me.
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Please just allow me to be in this space for a little longer.
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And a lot of it needs to change.
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And so I would say.
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About a third of it is stuff that I'll keep and the rest I have to rework and I'm in the process of reworking that.
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And so I can technically say that I have a first full draft, but so much of it needs to change.
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And I don't know, but there's people that are like revision's, the fun part.
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And I'm like, when is it gonna fun out?
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When is it gonna fun up when you get it.
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I feel like there's a moment where you like something clicks and that's your, that's what
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Like, Ah, yeah, that, where is that moment?
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Because I'm like, I'm doing laps and I ain't run into it yet.
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And so I would love for the fun of revising to enter the room.
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Because right now it's just like sticky notes and highlighters and, and that imposter syndrome, I try to get into reading to motivate me into revisiting my manuscript.
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And then I read things and I'm like, I'll never write like a Donna Tartt or I'll never write like a Zora Neale Hurston as I stare at her book that's also on my desk.
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But then you think about it and those aren't their first drafts.
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Even with trying to remind myself that, I'll say that to writer friends, but I don't really extend that same grace to myself.
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I'm like, no, even on my fourth draft, it wouldn't sound that great.
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But yeah, the goal is I will hopefully see my agent.
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In June, and hopefully that will be a time where I can say, surprise, I have a revised draft and I'm excited for you to read it.
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I'm curious, so you were able to get an agent before finishing your book?
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Yes.
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Which is, I feel like so much about my writing journey is not, traditional.
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And so I just apply to things.
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If I see it, I'm applying for it.
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If someone mentions it, I'm applying for it.
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Back when I was on Twitter and, looking at when it was actually Twitter.
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When it Twittering the right way I would, look for opportunities there.
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And so I ended up applying to this mentorship scheme that came with guaranteed representation and so I studied creative writing in the UK and when I got there my program is not what, it just wasn't what I expected it to be.
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And so I knew that I was going to need some sort of like supplemental learning or other opportunities to make my moving to the UK worth it.
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And so I applied to a bunch of UK opportunities and this was one of them.
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And so you submit a writing sample, you go on this mentorship scheme for about six months, and then you are paired with an agent.
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And so that's how I ended up getting an agent, I would say, with around like 35 to 40,000 words of my novel.
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And so that, that was great because I know that the querying journey is a journey and yeah.
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I think, a lot of the things you've said are the epitome of why of our vision of this podcast.
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It's like we're all just trying our best and trying things out and sometimes it works and knowing that you're not alone and also that there are many paths to paths to writing paths, to publication paths, to getting an agent.
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So it's really great to hear other stories.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I am grateful for all of the opportunities, especially the opportunities that they have for underrepresented writers or women writers because it's hard to break into these things and not really know what you're doing.
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And I don't come from, a traditionally creative background.
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I work primarily with like education, nonprofits and yeah, it has really been the strength of the community that I've built Not all of us come from a place of having tons of connections and so you do just have to build your way up and then you throw a bunch at the wall and see what sticks and it's what it is.
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And sometimes it's painful'cause not a lot of things stick.
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Some things be falling and that hurts.
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But then some things do stick and it's like glimmers of hope.
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So me and Camille met at the, was it 2023 Hurston Wright Foundation Writers Week.
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And it was held at Howard University.
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And I'd say that was my first time in, in an all Black writing space, I think.
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I'm trying to think, I do think it was probably one of my first all black spaces in writing, moving from Brooklyn to UK I did not prepare myself for the culture shock of moving some from somewhere that is predominantly Black to predominantly white.
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And then also what that meant for workshopping my work.
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And so when I started getting into some of the more kind of racialized texts, like shopping while Black and the conversations got, they got interesting in a way that I feel like I, I probably should have anticipated, you just, I'm always Black.
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That's just how I show up.
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And so it's interesting when people react to your work and we didn't really have that in the Hurston Wright Where you felt like you had to ex, you had to go through this explanation phase before you could actually go into the work.
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And so let's explain what shopping while Black means, like we didn't have to dissect pieces of Blackness in a way that I felt like I might have to do in other settings which was refreshing and it just helped with not feeling as exhausted by the workshop process, which is already intense.
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Yeah.
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And I felt like it, for me, it definitely was a thing that I was like, oh, I didn't know I needed this.
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Having experienced it, I felt a lot of validation and comfort that I didn't even know was missing.
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Mm-hmm.
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It was like the epitome of being in a workshop where it's like, Issa Rae, I'm rooting for everybody black.
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Everybody's I'm root for you girl.
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And they just, and you just get it.
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And that's not always the case.
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What would you say was valuable about being in England for the
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oh yeah.
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How, first of all, yeah, how'd you end up, let's roll back.
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a few steps.
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How'd you get to go to, so you are originally from Brooklyn now in Florida and then passed through London, or sorry, uk.
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So originally from New Jersey, but was living in Brooklyn.
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And when I shout out to my therapist at the time, because.
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Homegirl changed my life and really just opened my mind up to what was possible.
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And so she was asking, probing questions of what would I want to be doing?
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Where would I want to be doing it?
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And it took some massaging because my brain is like, well, I'm at work And my brain is just no, I wanna be a high achieving corporate girl.
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I don't want that.
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That's not what I wanted.
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That's not at all what I wanted.
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So peeling that back and I finally got to, I just wanna write.
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I wanna write, and I think I said I wanted to write by a body of water.
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And she's okay like what would that look like?
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And at the time I.
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My mom was just in remission from breast cancer, and so I thought I can't leave.
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And why I thank my therapist so much is that she asked me this question, blew up my life and it was what would you what would it look like to not be the child That always stays and I'm, that's essentially what I am, is like, whenever someone's sick, I'm here.
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Don't worry.
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I'm a primary caretaker and when she asked me that question, I was just like, damn, I guess I could.
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I could venture a little bit further.
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And by that time, all of the application windows for programs in the States had closed, but there were some applications still open for the UK and so I applied to a handful of schools.
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I got in and didn't tell my parents until I was in and matriculated like, Hey, I'm just gonna gonna go ahead and quit my job and break my lease and move to England.
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It is cool.
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It's cool.
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It's gonna be okay.
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And that's how I ended up in England.
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And when I got there I was like, what am I doing?
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What?
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Yeah, it was a bit of a culture shock, but that's how I got there.
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And it was great.
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I'm really grateful for the experience.
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I'd never studied abroad before and so it was nice to experiment and see something different and, yeah.
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And so what were on then and what you were working on at in Hurston Wright, is that the same book?
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Yes, It's trying to.
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Avoid spoilers.
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So there is some Jamaican folklore and obeah, the very watered down version that I give is that, it's like Jamaica's version of voodoo or hoodoo.
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It's.
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Infusing a lot more of that, a lot more of the dark and like magical elements into the manuscript.
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Which also requires just more research on my part and more fun.
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I feel like it's one of those things that you, it's fiction, so you just get to make it up and so I trying to allow myself the freedom to do that.
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Then there is a love story in there, and I think I would, I was just like chronically single.
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And so I just skipped to heartache.
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I was just like, we're just gonna start at the point where things in the relationship go awry.
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Oh, I um, tend to do that myself.
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Yeah.
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And my agent was like, let's not, and I was like, oh, you, oh, you want their story?
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I don't know, love honey.
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And so I'm like, at that point I just, I've been out the datin' game.
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I was just like, what are the butterflies?
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What am I supposed to, what am I supposed to write?
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And so that was, it's been a bit challenging.
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So definitely more of a love story in there.
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The dark and like magical elements.
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But it has changed.
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It has changed quite a bit and yeah, I'm excited for one day when I can have beta readers to actually,
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I'm excited.
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you like sign me up.
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Thank you.
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Sign me up.
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Oh, that's great.
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Yeah, I i've de, I've decided I'm gonna write a novel, so I just keep saying it.
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Right?
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If you keep saying it, it'll happen, right?
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That's manifestation.
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Do you primarily do short stories?
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I have been, because a novel seemed like a, like too big of a mountain to climb.
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But I was sick of revising my short stories and sending them out, so I just thought maybe I just do different.
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Try something different.
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I also think, I think short stories are so hard
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I agree.
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'cause it's so self-contained.
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Not that every line doesn't have to count in a novel, I just don't think it has the same weight as it does in a short story where it's just, it's doing such heavy lifting and you have this contained space and there's a lot you gotta do in that space where whereas with a novel, you have room to kind of breathe and ramble.
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There's so much pressure I think on short stories.
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Like, oh, okay.
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Did that ending work?
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Yeah.
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Whereas with the novel sometimes I'm like whatever the ending was, who cares?
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I enjoyed the ride.
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Yeah.
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When I think of short stories, I'm like, okay, and where was the hook and what was the takeaway and the moral?
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And I'm like, Ooh.
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It just, it does feel like a lot of pressure.
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Would you say that you're a plotter?
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Have you heard these terms, the plotter or pancer?
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I would say a little bit.
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A little bit of both.
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I have to have a general idea of, what's happening in the story the like.
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Letting myself go wild.
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Like the, Post-its behind me.
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That's, I started using Post-its because I, was intimidated by Scrivener, intimidated by Word docs and I was just like, I just need to be able to fill a post-it.
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And so that is the extent that I will let myself like ramble is however many post-its I can fill up.
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But I'm not typically a, let's just see where this story goes, kind of gal and feel I'm Too much of a type, a kind of control freak to let that flag fly.
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yeah,
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its that your corporate girly coming out?
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it is.
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I need a little bit of structure.
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I would love to be a free thinker and be like, oh my gosh, whatever comes to me, like no.
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would drive me crazy.
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So these these post-its, you write down what a scene's gonna be about or what the next move in the plot is.
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Yeah, like I will say a good third, at least a third of my book was written on Post-it notes because I just got so scared of the process.
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And I, and that's one thing with getting an agent before your book is done, it feels like there's a lot of pressure and, and then you get introduced to the publishing world.
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Not like deep in it, but a little bit earlier, especially like with the mentorship scheme and you're looking at, I think at my agency they, they showed us, the maid who the author assigned to her, I think it's Nita Prose, assigned to the agency and they showed like all the different versions of her books and all the ways that it would like in the different countries.
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It was translated.
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And so there became this kind of commercial pressure of oh, my book needs to sell and it needs to sell well, and my voice needs to be such so that it will, and then it just.
00:17:24.233 --> 00:17:27.144
It just killed whatever creativity I had inside of me.
00:17:27.144 --> 00:17:28.134
I could not write.
00:17:28.703 --> 00:17:34.673
And so I'd start with okay, I have an idea, and then it'd be a scene and then I'm filling these, I'm just filling these Post-its.
00:17:34.854 --> 00:17:36.648
And that was the only way I could write.
00:17:36.848 --> 00:17:36.939
this,
00:17:37.013 --> 00:17:41.814
So you're writing in prose on these, like you're writing, I thought you were writing little notes.
00:17:41.943 --> 00:17:43.864
No no no girl it, is full sentences.
00:17:43.864 --> 00:17:44.193
It is.
00:17:45.064 --> 00:17:55.991
If I fill it, I go onto to the next one, and then I put my little story together and it's just, it's less intimidating than like an angry cursor, blinking or Scrivener and the, that side panel.
00:17:55.991 --> 00:17:56.801
Good grief.
00:17:56.991 --> 00:18:00.932
And so at what point do you transfer that onto the computer?
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:07.069
I'm like, looking at it now I would say once they're like full scenes, I'll start transcribing them.
00:18:07.490 --> 00:18:08.180
I love that.
00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:10.490
I, so I have never tried that.
00:18:10.529 --> 00:18:20.099
I do sometimes go with a notebook, no computer, and then I like type it up later that day generally, but I can barely read my handwriting.
00:18:20.099 --> 00:18:25.559
So it's like I'm making up and it's like I've already thought about it when I was writing the initial draft.
00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:29.075
And then I look at the scratch and new sentences has come up,
00:18:29.174 --> 00:18:29.535
of it.
00:18:29.565 --> 00:18:30.224
Yeah.
00:18:30.528 --> 00:18:32.659
even a notebook can be intimidating for me.
00:18:32.659 --> 00:18:35.358
Like I, I don't know what it is.
00:18:35.459 --> 00:18:41.429
It's just when you get into your head and you start thinking like anything, any and everything I write.
00:18:41.729 --> 00:18:43.318
Is going to be crap.
00:18:43.378 --> 00:18:52.019
But if I write a post-it note and in my head I'm like, it's a trash post-it note that it's not that big of a deal.
00:18:57.317 --> 00:18:58.936
What you been up to lately?
00:18:59.646 --> 00:19:08.436
Working full time., I had my revision call with my agent and she didn't realize that I had two jobs and she was like, oh, I'm never getting this book.
00:19:08.646 --> 00:19:09.906
And I'm just like no.
00:19:10.116 --> 00:19:11.317
I'm gonna prioritize it.
00:19:11.606 --> 00:19:12.517
That was April.
00:19:12.787 --> 00:19:13.237
Oh God.
00:19:13.446 --> 00:19:14.826
But yeah, I have a full-time job.
00:19:15.457 --> 00:19:24.326
And a part-time job both doing communications, one for an academic publisher and the other for an education nonprofit.
00:19:24.730 --> 00:19:39.780
And I will say that my full-time job is they are warming up to the idea of infusing internal communications with storytelling which is cool, but also wild to me because they hired me as a storyteller.
00:19:39.780 --> 00:19:43.080
And so when I came in and they were like, so we want you to work on all this strategy.
00:19:43.080 --> 00:19:44.191
I was like, that's cool.
00:19:44.191 --> 00:19:45.871
When I, when do I get to tell stories though?
00:19:45.931 --> 00:19:58.431
Like when do I, and so it has been an interesting journey of trying to get the buy-in of can we tell employee stories and have that be part of our strategy for engagement?
00:19:58.881 --> 00:20:03.550
And so it's writing adjacent not really the writing that I love to be doing.
00:20:04.881 --> 00:20:13.928
And how do you, I don't wanna say how do you balance it all, but We've talked in the past about sometimes having a job forces you to write'cause you have less time.
00:20:13.928 --> 00:20:15.323
Like when you have all day to write.
00:20:15.417 --> 00:20:16.647
I I don't write for reason.
00:20:16.718 --> 00:20:17.008
Yeah.
00:20:18.087 --> 00:20:18.657
That's true.
00:20:19.188 --> 00:20:20.417
I will say that.
00:20:20.417 --> 00:20:20.748
I will.
00:20:20.748 --> 00:20:21.228
You're right.
00:20:21.228 --> 00:20:25.397
I will find everything under the sun to do except write when I have time.
00:20:25.758 --> 00:20:38.748
It does help to know that I've got like a good hour and a half after job two to do something so those moments of I've got an hour, what can I get done?
00:20:39.147 --> 00:20:41.595
I can usually produce something.
00:20:41.954 --> 00:20:48.515
I haven't been great with having a practice though, really having a daily practice or even a weekly practice.
00:20:48.875 --> 00:20:53.900
And that's something, as much as I love structure, I don't have routines, I'm just out here free balling.
00:20:53.900 --> 00:20:56.664
I'm just doing the best that I'm doing the best that I can with what I got.
00:20:57.154 --> 00:20:59.644
And so maybe it'd be.
00:21:00.365 --> 00:21:17.250
Nice to have some sort of loose routine where I could, actually set aside time to write because it does for me it gets the short end of the stick because once I finish job two, if I'm tired, I'm not opening, I'm another program or a book or a notebook.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:18.130
Yeah,
00:21:18.634 --> 00:21:19.295
no, that's wild.
00:21:19.295 --> 00:21:19.595
You're doing
00:21:19.595 --> 00:21:20.126
three jobs.
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:27.980
especially if I feel like it's hard when you have jobs that are writing and using that part of your brain.
00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:28.940
You're like, oh my yeah.
00:21:28.970 --> 00:21:29.599
I've done this.
00:21:30.289 --> 00:21:30.529
Yeah.
00:21:30.529 --> 00:21:33.589
You've been writing, you've been looking at Word documents all day.
00:21:33.589 --> 00:21:35.089
You've been, and yeah.
00:21:35.089 --> 00:21:44.089
No, and it, it is a different type of writing, but it's just the time that I think to turn that part of my brain off to really focus on this.
00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:46.949
A lot of the times it's just not there.
00:21:46.949 --> 00:21:49.288
When they have icebreakers and it's what do you do for fun?
00:21:49.288 --> 00:21:50.398
And I'm like, what is that?
00:21:50.443 --> 00:21:50.743
I don't.
00:21:50.743 --> 00:21:50.834
Yeah.
00:21:50.834 --> 00:21:51.493
What fun?
00:21:51.509 --> 00:21:53.548
We are out here working.
00:21:53.548 --> 00:21:55.378
I'm like, what things that I do?
00:21:55.429 --> 00:22:05.028
I had a very strong concerningly, strong, according to my mom true crime period where I would unwind with just death.
00:22:05.209 --> 00:22:09.019
Like I would just I think maybe he should look at something else.
00:22:09.068 --> 00:22:12.644
But I write dark stuff and yeah, but that's how I would unwind
00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:14.528
What's a show that you particularly like?
00:22:15.769 --> 00:22:23.388
I was on a very strong dateline kick ever since I found out that Samsung tv.
00:22:23.798 --> 00:22:28.598
Samsung TV had a whole Dateline channel and it was like 24/7 Dateline.
00:22:28.598 --> 00:22:31.358
And my mom was like, oh my god, please.
00:22:31.628 --> 00:22:33.999
So Dateline, I love a 20/20.
00:22:34.479 --> 00:22:39.778
There was a show called, Phrogger, which I didn't know what a phrogger was.
00:22:39.808 --> 00:22:45.659
It is someone that inhabits a home, unbeknownst to the owners.
00:22:45.659 --> 00:22:51.449
So like just somebody living in the walls, someone living in the, and I was like, this is wild.
00:22:51.499 --> 00:22:52.848
It's not funny, but it is.
00:22:52.848 --> 00:22:55.068
'cause I'm just like, what do you mean you were in the walls?
00:22:55.118 --> 00:22:55.689
What do you mean?
00:22:56.134 --> 00:22:57.183
The audacity,
00:23:02.527 --> 00:23:06.412
do you get inspired by news stories or true stories?
00:23:06.412 --> 00:23:08.017
Does that make its way into your work?
00:23:09.354 --> 00:23:10.134
News stories?
00:23:10.134 --> 00:23:17.124
No, experiences and and stories from my family and retellings of things.
00:23:17.124 --> 00:23:17.693
Yes.
00:23:18.384 --> 00:23:25.263
I'm good for taking some sort of ghost story that my parents have shared and finding new, a way to put that in my work.
00:23:25.534 --> 00:23:30.259
I had a really I am laughing because of the love part that I have to write.
00:23:30.588 --> 00:23:37.314
I tried dating last fall and I had a really bad date and he was very.
00:23:37.977 --> 00:23:41.757
Obsessed with my being a writer in a way that really made me uncomfortable.
00:23:42.297 --> 00:23:45.596
He was always talking about my writing and I was just like, Ooh, can we just not?
00:23:46.047 --> 00:23:55.801
And during the date he revealed that he was so concerned with impressing me because I'm a writer, that he used chat GPT for all of our text conversations.
00:23:55.842 --> 00:23:57.551
Wow.
00:23:57.551 --> 00:23:57.553
No.
00:23:57.553 --> 00:23:57.554
Wow.
00:23:57.567 --> 00:23:59.517
that made it into the book because.
00:23:59.882 --> 00:24:11.521
I couldn't make it up because I would've never thought that something as labor intensive as copying and pasting a text exchange and chat chat GBT is something that someone would do.
00:24:11.852 --> 00:24:19.021
And so that made it into the book as just like a one-liner of kind of the losers that my, my main character was dating.
00:24:19.321 --> 00:24:26.267
It's so interesting because I feel like when I'm trying to connect with someone, i'm hoping that they will like me.
00:24:26.416 --> 00:24:31.426
So the idea that they would like a robot from my computer, that's just insane.
00:24:31.757 --> 00:24:36.771
And it was just so wild because he wasn't able to carry a conversation in person and so I was like, okay.
00:24:36.771 --> 00:24:36.852
I.
00:24:36.882 --> 00:24:37.622
That's telling.
00:24:37.826 --> 00:24:38.445
This is the future by the way
00:24:38.547 --> 00:24:43.991
It's, it's, you it's, it's, scary how much people rely on chat GPT.
00:24:43.991 --> 00:24:47.122
I'm like, not for dating, not for the conversations.
00:24:47.122 --> 00:24:47.842
That's wild.
00:24:47.842 --> 00:25:01.086
And but he was also very fixated on the types of things that I wrote about and my lived experience, making it into my stories, which it doesn't necessarily, but that had to go in because why would you do that?
00:25:01.402 --> 00:25:01.821
Wonder.
00:25:01.961 --> 00:25:06.666
So bizarre wonder if he was attempting to be amms, but he was not
00:25:06.696 --> 00:25:07.207
Yeah.
00:25:07.567 --> 00:25:07.836
that.
00:25:08.267 --> 00:25:09.826
Do you write about guys that you date?
00:25:09.826 --> 00:25:12.497
And I'm like, I don't even date enough to write, but like this.
00:25:12.497 --> 00:25:13.727
Yeah, I'm gonna have to,
00:25:13.967 --> 00:25:14.207
it.
00:25:14.291 --> 00:25:16.721
You made it congrats!.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:27.359
I remember you telling me a story about a residency you did in I think Martha's Vineyard.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.325
Would you share a little bit?
00:25:29.375 --> 00:25:32.565
Yeah, so it was the Renaissance House.
00:25:32.565 --> 00:25:40.095
I don't know if it's still going on because the organizer has since passed, but it was.
00:25:40.694 --> 00:25:45.970
It was very interesting, and again I had deemed 2023 as like my year of writing.
00:25:45.970 --> 00:26:04.769
I was gonna apply to all of the things, and so I'd applied to this residency and it had more of a mom and pop feel to it, but unbeknownst to me when I was applying, and then after being accepted, I got this list of dos and don'ts, like no sex will be had in this house.
00:26:04.769 --> 00:26:07.769
No drinking, no drugs will be taking place in this here home.
00:26:08.009 --> 00:26:12.450
And I was just like, what did I sign myself up for after having already paid, like the money is gone, child.
00:26:12.450 --> 00:26:13.200
Like she got it.
00:26:13.470 --> 00:26:21.549
And so I was like, oh my gosh, what have I signed myself up for Usually when you see rules like that, it's because somebody was doing those things.
00:26:21.549 --> 00:26:27.250
Somebody was in that woman's house making love and walking around naked and doing like just wild things.
00:26:28.259 --> 00:26:33.279
There was so many rules that I was just like, I'm just gonna be a good writer girl and I'm gonna be in the house.
00:26:33.549 --> 00:26:42.970
The way that it was phrased, it made it seem, and Martha's Vineyard, I guess is small and like people do know each other, but it just felt like she's got eyes all over this island.
00:26:42.970 --> 00:26:46.930
So you're not having a pint at the bar and coming home.
00:26:46.990 --> 00:26:47.890
'cause she's gonna know.
00:26:48.190 --> 00:26:50.220
And so it's like like she put the fear of God in me.
00:26:50.289 --> 00:26:53.470
So you literally weren't allowed to drink even off premises.
00:26:53.740 --> 00:26:54.700
Even off-premises.
00:26:54.700 --> 00:26:56.875
We, no, yeah, that was, yeah.
00:26:56.894 --> 00:26:57.595
She was not having,
00:26:57.625 --> 00:26:58.285
As adults.
00:26:58.775 --> 00:26:59.065
yeah,
00:26:59.335 --> 00:26:59.395
As adults,
00:26:59.769 --> 00:27:00.059
like
00:27:00.470 --> 00:27:04.940
I don't care if you gro you came here to write and so there will be nothing.
00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:07.250
There will be no mind altering substances.
00:27:07.250 --> 00:27:08.180
You came here to write.
00:27:08.779 --> 00:27:09.799
But it was fun.
00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:17.059
And it was very homey because we stayed in her home with her, but yeah, it was definitely one of the more interesting residencies that I've done.
00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:18.400
I love it.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:19.640
Did you get a lot of work done?
00:27:20.585 --> 00:27:24.125
Yes, because we had a man, we had mandatory writing time.
00:27:24.634 --> 00:27:28.974
I think it was three hours in the morning, just like, and no talking.
00:27:29.634 --> 00:27:36.585
I think one day, like some, I don't know, we weren't even talking that much, but she called from the other room are those voices I hear?
00:27:36.585 --> 00:27:38.694
And I said, oh my God, I will shut up.
00:27:39.815 --> 00:27:41.474
When you're like, you're not about to get me in trouble.
00:27:41.474 --> 00:27:42.065
Shut up.
00:27:42.450 --> 00:27:43.549
That what it was
00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:46.009
did you feel like you were like eight years old?
00:27:46.924 --> 00:27:48.934
You did feel like you were living in Big Mama's house.
00:27:48.934 --> 00:27:52.684
And I was just like I'm just gonna respect Big Mama's rules because she doesn't play.
00:27:53.255 --> 00:27:57.305
But she's also really quirky and fun.
00:27:57.875 --> 00:28:05.595
She had this picture with a close friend and this Andy Warhol like album of photos and she's naked in a tub.
00:28:05.595 --> 00:28:08.325
And so she had fun, like she lived a good life.
00:28:08.325 --> 00:28:08.805
You know what I mean?
00:28:08.805 --> 00:28:12.615
So it was just very funny for her to be like, and y'all will not be doing the same on my watch.
00:28:13.184 --> 00:28:14.085
It was like, okay.
00:28:14.714 --> 00:28:15.434
Alright girl.
00:28:15.744 --> 00:28:16.615
But it was fun.
00:28:16.704 --> 00:28:17.329
It was a good time.
00:28:22.855 --> 00:28:29.575
I would say it's all right if you can't hit 1000 words, and all you can do is fill up a Post-it note.
00:28:30.259 --> 00:28:30.869
Beautiful.
00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:31.750
Beautiful.
00:28:32.650 --> 00:28:33.549
That's our podcast.
00:28:34.394 --> 00:28:34.990
Thank you so much.
00:28:35.835 --> 00:28:36.194
Of course.
00:28:36.194 --> 00:28:37.095
No, thank you.
00:28:37.095 --> 00:28:37.904
This was fun.
00:28:43.163 --> 00:28:46.192
We'll be dropping new episodes every other Tuesday.
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:54.200
You can find us on Instagram at It's All Write pod and you can drop us a line at, isallwritepod@gmail.com.
00:28:54.306 --> 00:28:56.645
Write, spelled W-R-I-T-E.
00:28:56.983 --> 00:29:01.943
Make sure to, subscribe, like all those things.
00:29:01.993 --> 00:29:05.338
Wherever you get your podcasts, Tune in next time.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.112
I tried dating last fall and I had a really bad date and he was very obsessed with my being a writer in a way that really made me uncomfortable.
00:00:10.651 --> 00:00:13.951
He was always talking about my writing and I was just like, Ooh, can we just not?
00:00:14.401 --> 00:00:24.157
And during the date he revealed that he was so concerned with impressing me because I'm a writer, that he used chat GPT for all of our text conversations
00:00:24.196 --> 00:00:25.274
Wow.
00:00:30.012 --> 00:00:31.632
Hi, am Meryl Branch Mc tiernan.
00:00:32.021 --> 00:00:32.381
Hi,
00:00:32.396 --> 00:00:32.517
I am
00:00:32.517 --> 00:00:35.646
Ariana McLean and you're listening to It's All Write.
00:00:36.241 --> 00:00:38.161
A podcast about writers
00:00:38.161 --> 00:00:41.270
and the writer and the writing life.
00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:55.380
On today's episode, we are talking to Camille Boxhill She earned her MA over in the UK at the University of Bristol, and we met at the Hurston Wright Foundation Writers' Week held at Howard University.
00:00:55.490 --> 00:01:06.569
Today Camille is joining us from Southern Florida to chat with us about her writing life about all the things she's applied for and where she's at, working on her debut novel.
00:01:06.780 --> 00:01:07.409
Hi Camille.
00:01:07.784 --> 00:01:08.564
Hi.
00:01:08.655 --> 00:01:09.885
Thank you so much for having me.
00:01:10.174 --> 00:01:14.728
Camille was a 2024 Florida Fellow of Literary Arts.
00:01:14.728 --> 00:01:15.808
Yeah, it's a mouthful.
00:01:15.808 --> 00:01:19.149
I can't I don't think I've ever really gotten used to saying it.
00:01:19.149 --> 00:01:19.853
So South Arts.
00:01:21.459 --> 00:01:37.197
Literary Fellow for the state of Florida, So basically South Arts is an organization focused on visual and written storytelling in the southern states and they selected a fellow from each state And so I was just grateful to have that.
00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:39.469
Could you tell us what that entails?
00:01:39.578 --> 00:01:43.058
Sometimes it feels like I'm cosplaying as a writer when I say oh, I'm a writer.
00:01:43.117 --> 00:01:44.798
And it's just so where are your lists?
00:01:44.798 --> 00:01:45.878
Where can I read your work?
00:01:45.878 --> 00:01:49.117
And I'm like, oh, I'm a writer, but I'm not there yet.
00:01:49.117 --> 00:01:53.317
And, but this is, this was one of the times that I felt like I actually got to.
00:01:53.677 --> 00:01:57.908
Be in that writer world and people were like, yeah, you are a writer.
00:01:58.237 --> 00:02:04.998
And so all of the fellows were published in an anthology, and then we went to the Mississippi Book Festival.
00:02:05.237 --> 00:02:08.987
And that was essentially my first writer's appearance.
00:02:08.987 --> 00:02:12.497
And we all sat on a panel, which was terrifying for me.
00:02:12.807 --> 00:02:28.568
and then we did a book signing, which again, just felt like i'm playing dress up and I'm at a table doing book signings, but there were people who were there and asking questions and interested in my writing and it just felt weird, but also okay, this is why I want to do this.
00:02:28.717 --> 00:02:30.698
Because people care about what you're writing.
00:02:32.002 --> 00:02:32.723
Amazing.
00:02:33.263 --> 00:02:44.168
I feel like Meryl often has these fantasies about, she has like these fantasies of this writer's world where you're like signing books and going to parties and it seems like you got a little taste.
00:02:44.733 --> 00:02:49.913
Yeah, it was a little taste and I want more of it and then also I think it's fun.
00:02:50.143 --> 00:03:15.217
It's fun going to these places and seeing authors so I went to a reading at Prairie Lights in Iowa City when I was there for a summer workshop and Kaveh Akbar was there and he he facilitated like a discussion and I ran into him at the was it Miami Book Festival, and I was passing and he was like, oh, hey.
00:03:15.457 --> 00:03:16.614
And I had one of those moments.
00:03:16.614 --> 00:03:18.204
I was like, oh my God, you remember me?
00:03:18.413 --> 00:03:19.463
That's so sweet.
00:03:19.734 --> 00:03:25.283
And yeah it's nice to feel like you're taking little baby steps and breaking into this world.
00:03:25.283 --> 00:03:31.183
And it is nice to be a recognizable face in a sea of faces at some of these book festivals.
00:03:31.183 --> 00:03:32.443
And so that's nice.
00:03:33.563 --> 00:03:36.024
So Ariana mentioned you're working on a novel.
00:03:36.024 --> 00:03:38.063
Can you tell us where you are with that novel?
00:03:39.024 --> 00:03:42.383
I'm staring at the printed manuscript.
00:03:42.383 --> 00:03:42.653
It's
00:03:42.683 --> 00:03:43.104
Been there.
00:03:45.264 --> 00:03:45.324
It.
00:03:45.354 --> 00:03:47.604
Is there, I really thought, I'm gonna go to Staples.
00:03:47.604 --> 00:03:51.294
I'm gonna print this thing out and I'm really gonna get to it with the revisions.
00:03:51.473 --> 00:03:55.223
And so there is a first draft and I say it's trash.
00:03:55.253 --> 00:03:59.454
And I know that we're our own, toughest critic, but I did not wanna share it with my agent.
00:03:59.454 --> 00:04:00.984
She is begging me for this.
00:04:00.984 --> 00:04:02.123
She's I know it exists.
00:04:02.123 --> 00:04:02.963
Please let me read it.
00:04:02.963 --> 00:04:05.813
And I was just like, I do not want you to think lesser of me.
00:04:05.813 --> 00:04:08.954
Please just allow me to be in this space for a little longer.
00:04:09.354 --> 00:04:11.753
And a lot of it needs to change.
00:04:11.813 --> 00:04:13.433
And so I would say.
00:04:14.003 --> 00:04:23.374
About a third of it is stuff that I'll keep and the rest I have to rework and I'm in the process of reworking that.
00:04:23.374 --> 00:04:28.413
And so I can technically say that I have a first full draft, but so much of it needs to change.
00:04:28.774 --> 00:04:32.043
And I don't know, but there's people that are like revision's, the fun part.
00:04:32.043 --> 00:04:33.324
And I'm like, when is it gonna fun out?
00:04:33.774 --> 00:04:35.918
When is it gonna fun up when you get it.
00:04:36.533 --> 00:04:41.033
I feel like there's a moment where you like something clicks and that's your, that's what
00:04:41.093 --> 00:04:44.004
Like, Ah, yeah, that, where is that moment?
00:04:44.004 --> 00:04:46.973
Because I'm like, I'm doing laps and I ain't run into it yet.
00:04:46.973 --> 00:04:51.069
And so I would love for the fun of revising to enter the room.
00:04:51.439 --> 00:05:02.228
Because right now it's just like sticky notes and highlighters and, and that imposter syndrome, I try to get into reading to motivate me into revisiting my manuscript.
00:05:02.228 --> 00:05:09.928
And then I read things and I'm like, I'll never write like a Donna Tartt or I'll never write like a Zora Neale Hurston as I stare at her book that's also on my desk.
00:05:09.978 --> 00:05:13.639
But then you think about it and those aren't their first drafts.
00:05:13.882 --> 00:05:20.862
Even with trying to remind myself that, I'll say that to writer friends, but I don't really extend that same grace to myself.
00:05:20.862 --> 00:05:24.163
I'm like, no, even on my fourth draft, it wouldn't sound that great.
00:05:24.463 --> 00:05:27.572
But yeah, the goal is I will hopefully see my agent.
00:05:28.713 --> 00:05:36.273
In June, and hopefully that will be a time where I can say, surprise, I have a revised draft and I'm excited for you to read it.
00:05:36.302 --> 00:05:40.083
I'm curious, so you were able to get an agent before finishing your book?
00:05:40.827 --> 00:05:41.048
Yes.
00:05:41.343 --> 00:05:46.773
Which is, I feel like so much about my writing journey is not, traditional.
00:05:46.833 --> 00:05:48.843
And so I just apply to things.
00:05:48.843 --> 00:05:50.762
If I see it, I'm applying for it.
00:05:51.213 --> 00:05:53.552
If someone mentions it, I'm applying for it.
00:05:53.583 --> 00:05:59.077
Back when I was on Twitter and, looking at when it was actually Twitter.
00:05:59.262 --> 00:06:03.317
When it Twittering the right way I would, look for opportunities there.
00:06:03.497 --> 00:06:21.353
And so I ended up applying to this mentorship scheme that came with guaranteed representation and so I studied creative writing in the UK and when I got there my program is not what, it just wasn't what I expected it to be.
00:06:21.353 --> 00:06:30.233
And so I knew that I was going to need some sort of like supplemental learning or other opportunities to make my moving to the UK worth it.
00:06:30.233 --> 00:06:34.103
And so I applied to a bunch of UK opportunities and this was one of them.
00:06:34.132 --> 00:06:42.413
And so you submit a writing sample, you go on this mentorship scheme for about six months, and then you are paired with an agent.
00:06:42.473 --> 00:06:50.612
And so that's how I ended up getting an agent, I would say, with around like 35 to 40,000 words of my novel.
00:06:50.642 --> 00:06:57.572
And so that, that was great because I know that the querying journey is a journey and yeah.
00:06:58.468 --> 00:07:04.237
I think, a lot of the things you've said are the epitome of why of our vision of this podcast.
00:07:04.237 --> 00:07:17.432
It's like we're all just trying our best and trying things out and sometimes it works and knowing that you're not alone and also that there are many paths to paths to writing paths, to publication paths, to getting an agent.
00:07:17.432 --> 00:07:19.762
So it's really great to hear other stories.
00:07:19.767 --> 00:07:20.137
Mm-hmm.
00:07:20.228 --> 00:07:21.398
Yeah, absolutely.
00:07:21.398 --> 00:07:35.887
I am grateful for all of the opportunities, especially the opportunities that they have for underrepresented writers or women writers because it's hard to break into these things and not really know what you're doing.
00:07:35.947 --> 00:07:40.588
And I don't come from, a traditionally creative background.
00:07:40.937 --> 00:08:02.267
I work primarily with like education, nonprofits and yeah, it has really been the strength of the community that I've built Not all of us come from a place of having tons of connections and so you do just have to build your way up and then you throw a bunch at the wall and see what sticks and it's what it is.
00:08:02.267 --> 00:08:04.908
And sometimes it's painful'cause not a lot of things stick.
00:08:04.908 --> 00:08:07.588
Some things be falling and that hurts.
00:08:07.617 --> 00:08:11.067
But then some things do stick and it's like glimmers of hope.
00:08:16.846 --> 00:08:24.375
So me and Camille met at the, was it 2023 Hurston Wright Foundation Writers Week.
00:08:24.925 --> 00:08:27.021
And it was held at Howard University.
00:08:27.331 --> 00:08:33.721
And I'd say that was my first time in, in an all Black writing space, I think.
00:08:34.640 --> 00:08:50.650
I'm trying to think, I do think it was probably one of my first all black spaces in writing, moving from Brooklyn to UK I did not prepare myself for the culture shock of moving some from somewhere that is predominantly Black to predominantly white.
00:08:51.130 --> 00:08:54.341
And then also what that meant for workshopping my work.
00:08:54.671 --> 00:09:12.630
And so when I started getting into some of the more kind of racialized texts, like shopping while Black and the conversations got, they got interesting in a way that I feel like I, I probably should have anticipated, you just, I'm always Black.
00:09:12.630 --> 00:09:13.740
That's just how I show up.
00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:26.490
And so it's interesting when people react to your work and we didn't really have that in the Hurston Wright Where you felt like you had to ex, you had to go through this explanation phase before you could actually go into the work.
00:09:26.490 --> 00:09:42.211
And so let's explain what shopping while Black means, like we didn't have to dissect pieces of Blackness in a way that I felt like I might have to do in other settings which was refreshing and it just helped with not feeling as exhausted by the workshop process, which is already intense.
00:09:43.571 --> 00:09:43.721
Yeah.
00:09:43.721 --> 00:09:47.591
And I felt like it, for me, it definitely was a thing that I was like, oh, I didn't know I needed this.
00:09:47.691 --> 00:09:54.110
Having experienced it, I felt a lot of validation and comfort that I didn't even know was missing.
00:09:54.115 --> 00:09:54.466
Mm-hmm.
00:09:54.605 --> 00:09:59.105
It was like the epitome of being in a workshop where it's like, Issa Rae, I'm rooting for everybody black.
00:09:59.105 --> 00:10:00.275
Everybody's I'm root for you girl.
00:10:00.605 --> 00:10:01.926
And they just, and you just get it.
00:10:02.105 --> 00:10:04.806
And that's not always the case.
00:10:04.899 --> 00:10:08.649
What would you say was valuable about being in England for the
00:10:08.698 --> 00:10:09.208
oh yeah.
00:10:09.328 --> 00:10:11.494
How, first of all, yeah, how'd you end up, let's roll back.
00:10:11.548 --> 00:10:12.448
a few steps.
00:10:12.479 --> 00:10:20.698
How'd you get to go to, so you are originally from Brooklyn now in Florida and then passed through London, or sorry, uk.
00:10:21.219 --> 00:10:23.379
So originally from New Jersey, but was living in Brooklyn.
00:10:23.769 --> 00:10:28.538
And when I shout out to my therapist at the time, because.
00:10:29.589 --> 00:10:34.249
Homegirl changed my life and really just opened my mind up to what was possible.
00:10:34.249 --> 00:10:38.269
And so she was asking, probing questions of what would I want to be doing?
00:10:38.269 --> 00:10:40.009
Where would I want to be doing it?
00:10:40.369 --> 00:10:47.658
And it took some massaging because my brain is like, well, I'm at work And my brain is just no, I wanna be a high achieving corporate girl.
00:10:47.688 --> 00:10:48.589
I don't want that.
00:10:48.678 --> 00:10:49.668
That's not what I wanted.
00:10:49.788 --> 00:10:50.958
That's not at all what I wanted.
00:10:50.958 --> 00:10:54.889
So peeling that back and I finally got to, I just wanna write.
00:10:55.533 --> 00:10:59.583
I wanna write, and I think I said I wanted to write by a body of water.
00:10:59.764 --> 00:11:01.563
And she's okay like what would that look like?
00:11:01.894 --> 00:11:03.644
And at the time I.
00:11:04.708 --> 00:11:09.928
My mom was just in remission from breast cancer, and so I thought I can't leave.
00:11:10.469 --> 00:11:24.249
And why I thank my therapist so much is that she asked me this question, blew up my life and it was what would you what would it look like to not be the child That always stays and I'm, that's essentially what I am, is like, whenever someone's sick, I'm here.
00:11:24.339 --> 00:11:24.938
Don't worry.
00:11:24.938 --> 00:11:29.788
I'm a primary caretaker and when she asked me that question, I was just like, damn, I guess I could.
00:11:30.193 --> 00:11:32.203
I could venture a little bit further.
00:11:32.563 --> 00:11:43.943
And by that time, all of the application windows for programs in the States had closed, but there were some applications still open for the UK and so I applied to a handful of schools.
00:11:43.943 --> 00:11:55.328
I got in and didn't tell my parents until I was in and matriculated like, Hey, I'm just gonna gonna go ahead and quit my job and break my lease and move to England.
00:11:55.389 --> 00:11:55.989
It is cool.
00:11:55.989 --> 00:11:56.379
It's cool.
00:11:56.379 --> 00:11:57.099
It's gonna be okay.
00:11:57.849 --> 00:12:00.428
And that's how I ended up in England.
00:12:00.428 --> 00:12:02.889
And when I got there I was like, what am I doing?
00:12:03.249 --> 00:12:03.849
What?
00:12:04.089 --> 00:12:06.578
Yeah, it was a bit of a culture shock, but that's how I got there.
00:12:06.899 --> 00:12:07.528
And it was great.
00:12:07.558 --> 00:12:09.719
I'm really grateful for the experience.
00:12:09.719 --> 00:12:16.208
I'd never studied abroad before and so it was nice to experiment and see something different and, yeah.
00:12:17.634 --> 00:12:25.494
And so what were on then and what you were working on at in Hurston Wright, is that the same book?
00:12:26.364 --> 00:12:29.397
Yes, It's trying to.
00:12:31.422 --> 00:12:32.951
Avoid spoilers.
00:12:32.951 --> 00:12:43.751
So there is some Jamaican folklore and obeah, the very watered down version that I give is that, it's like Jamaica's version of voodoo or hoodoo.
00:12:44.292 --> 00:12:44.501
It's.
00:12:45.267 --> 00:12:51.267
Infusing a lot more of that, a lot more of the dark and like magical elements into the manuscript.
00:12:51.427 --> 00:12:55.777
Which also requires just more research on my part and more fun.
00:12:55.807 --> 00:13:05.307
I feel like it's one of those things that you, it's fiction, so you just get to make it up and so I trying to allow myself the freedom to do that.
00:13:05.922 --> 00:13:12.072
Then there is a love story in there, and I think I would, I was just like chronically single.
00:13:12.131 --> 00:13:15.241
And so I just skipped to heartache.
00:13:15.241 --> 00:13:20.042
I was just like, we're just gonna start at the point where things in the relationship go awry.
00:13:20.226 --> 00:13:22.292
Oh, I um, tend to do that myself.
00:13:22.831 --> 00:13:23.131
Yeah.
00:13:23.192 --> 00:13:29.162
And my agent was like, let's not, and I was like, oh, you, oh, you want their story?
00:13:30.121 --> 00:13:31.351
I don't know, love honey.
00:13:31.351 --> 00:13:35.126
And so I'm like, at that point I just, I've been out the datin' game.
00:13:35.126 --> 00:13:36.836
I was just like, what are the butterflies?
00:13:36.836 --> 00:13:38.876
What am I supposed to, what am I supposed to write?
00:13:38.876 --> 00:13:41.756
And so that was, it's been a bit challenging.
00:13:41.787 --> 00:13:44.966
So definitely more of a love story in there.
00:13:44.966 --> 00:13:47.366
The dark and like magical elements.
00:13:47.376 --> 00:13:48.697
But it has changed.
00:13:49.197 --> 00:13:57.116
It has changed quite a bit and yeah, I'm excited for one day when I can have beta readers to actually,
00:13:57.336 --> 00:13:57.917
I'm excited.
00:14:00.177 --> 00:14:01.106
you like sign me up.
00:14:01.111 --> 00:14:01.261
Thank you.
00:14:01.336 --> 00:14:02.307
Sign me up.
00:14:03.986 --> 00:14:05.756
Oh, that's great.
00:14:05.787 --> 00:14:09.736
Yeah, I i've de, I've decided I'm gonna write a novel, so I just keep saying it.
00:14:10.096 --> 00:14:10.336
Right?
00:14:10.336 --> 00:14:11.897
If you keep saying it, it'll happen, right?
00:14:11.947 --> 00:14:13.206
That's manifestation.
00:14:14.017 --> 00:14:16.221
Do you primarily do short stories?
00:14:16.221 --> 00:14:20.907
I have been, because a novel seemed like a, like too big of a mountain to climb.
00:14:21.647 --> 00:14:29.886
But I was sick of revising my short stories and sending them out, so I just thought maybe I just do different.
00:14:30.534 --> 00:14:31.519
Try something different.
00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:36.634
I also think, I think short stories are so hard
00:14:37.417 --> 00:14:38.091
I agree.
00:14:38.465 --> 00:14:39.575
'cause it's so self-contained.
00:14:39.731 --> 00:14:59.561
Not that every line doesn't have to count in a novel, I just don't think it has the same weight as it does in a short story where it's just, it's doing such heavy lifting and you have this contained space and there's a lot you gotta do in that space where whereas with a novel, you have room to kind of breathe and ramble.
00:14:59.936 --> 00:15:02.216
There's so much pressure I think on short stories.
00:15:03.490 --> 00:15:04.676
Like, oh, okay.
00:15:04.676 --> 00:15:06.775
Did that ending work?
00:15:06.806 --> 00:15:07.346
Yeah.
00:15:07.375 --> 00:15:10.676
Whereas with the novel sometimes I'm like whatever the ending was, who cares?
00:15:10.676 --> 00:15:11.635
I enjoyed the ride.
00:15:11.854 --> 00:15:12.144
Yeah.
00:15:12.426 --> 00:15:18.245
When I think of short stories, I'm like, okay, and where was the hook and what was the takeaway and the moral?
00:15:18.245 --> 00:15:18.905
And I'm like, Ooh.
00:15:18.905 --> 00:15:21.485
It just, it does feel like a lot of pressure.
00:15:26.567 --> 00:15:29.388
Would you say that you're a plotter?
00:15:29.388 --> 00:15:31.648
Have you heard these terms, the plotter or pancer?
00:15:32.981 --> 00:15:33.756
I would say a little bit.
00:15:34.812 --> 00:15:35.711
A little bit of both.
00:15:35.749 --> 00:15:39.241
I have to have a general idea of, what's happening in the story the like.
00:15:40.726 --> 00:15:42.586
Letting myself go wild.
00:15:42.586 --> 00:15:44.157
Like the, Post-its behind me.
00:15:44.484 --> 00:15:54.157
That's, I started using Post-its because I, was intimidated by Scrivener, intimidated by Word docs and I was just like, I just need to be able to fill a post-it.
00:15:54.547 --> 00:16:00.366
And so that is the extent that I will let myself like ramble is however many post-its I can fill up.
00:16:00.366 --> 00:16:11.614
But I'm not typically a, let's just see where this story goes, kind of gal and feel I'm Too much of a type, a kind of control freak to let that flag fly.
00:16:11.614 --> 00:16:11.673
yeah,
00:16:11.673 --> 00:16:13.173
its that your corporate girly coming out?
00:16:13.542 --> 00:16:14.261
it is.
00:16:14.261 --> 00:16:15.851
I need a little bit of structure.
00:16:15.942 --> 00:16:19.831
I would love to be a free thinker and be like, oh my gosh, whatever comes to me, like no.
00:16:20.162 --> 00:16:21.392
would drive me crazy.
00:16:21.841 --> 00:16:28.576
So these these post-its, you write down what a scene's gonna be about or what the next move in the plot is.
00:16:29.297 --> 00:16:39.226
Yeah, like I will say a good third, at least a third of my book was written on Post-it notes because I just got so scared of the process.
00:16:39.527 --> 00:16:52.423
And I, and that's one thing with getting an agent before your book is done, it feels like there's a lot of pressure and, and then you get introduced to the publishing world.
00:16:52.423 --> 00:17:12.693
Not like deep in it, but a little bit earlier, especially like with the mentorship scheme and you're looking at, I think at my agency they, they showed us, the maid who the author assigned to her, I think it's Nita Prose, assigned to the agency and they showed like all the different versions of her books and all the ways that it would like in the different countries.
00:17:12.693 --> 00:17:13.743
It was translated.
00:17:13.923 --> 00:17:23.874
And so there became this kind of commercial pressure of oh, my book needs to sell and it needs to sell well, and my voice needs to be such so that it will, and then it just.
00:17:24.233 --> 00:17:27.144
It just killed whatever creativity I had inside of me.
00:17:27.144 --> 00:17:28.134
I could not write.
00:17:28.703 --> 00:17:34.673
And so I'd start with okay, I have an idea, and then it'd be a scene and then I'm filling these, I'm just filling these Post-its.
00:17:34.854 --> 00:17:36.648
And that was the only way I could write.
00:17:36.848 --> 00:17:36.939
this,
00:17:37.013 --> 00:17:41.814
So you're writing in prose on these, like you're writing, I thought you were writing little notes.
00:17:41.943 --> 00:17:43.864
No no no girl it, is full sentences.
00:17:43.864 --> 00:17:44.193
It is.
00:17:45.064 --> 00:17:55.991
If I fill it, I go onto to the next one, and then I put my little story together and it's just, it's less intimidating than like an angry cursor, blinking or Scrivener and the, that side panel.
00:17:55.991 --> 00:17:56.801
Good grief.
00:17:56.991 --> 00:18:00.932
And so at what point do you transfer that onto the computer?
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:07.069
I'm like, looking at it now I would say once they're like full scenes, I'll start transcribing them.
00:18:07.490 --> 00:18:08.180
I love that.
00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:10.490
I, so I have never tried that.
00:18:10.529 --> 00:18:20.099
I do sometimes go with a notebook, no computer, and then I like type it up later that day generally, but I can barely read my handwriting.
00:18:20.099 --> 00:18:25.559
So it's like I'm making up and it's like I've already thought about it when I was writing the initial draft.
00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:29.075
And then I look at the scratch and new sentences has come up,
00:18:29.174 --> 00:18:29.535
of it.
00:18:29.565 --> 00:18:30.224
Yeah.
00:18:30.528 --> 00:18:32.659
even a notebook can be intimidating for me.
00:18:32.659 --> 00:18:35.358
Like I, I don't know what it is.
00:18:35.459 --> 00:18:41.429
It's just when you get into your head and you start thinking like anything, any and everything I write.
00:18:41.729 --> 00:18:43.318
Is going to be crap.
00:18:43.378 --> 00:18:52.019
But if I write a post-it note and in my head I'm like, it's a trash post-it note that it's not that big of a deal.
00:18:57.317 --> 00:18:58.936
What you been up to lately?
00:18:59.646 --> 00:19:08.436
Working full time., I had my revision call with my agent and she didn't realize that I had two jobs and she was like, oh, I'm never getting this book.
00:19:08.646 --> 00:19:09.906
And I'm just like no.
00:19:10.116 --> 00:19:11.317
I'm gonna prioritize it.
00:19:11.606 --> 00:19:12.517
That was April.
00:19:12.787 --> 00:19:13.237
Oh God.
00:19:13.446 --> 00:19:14.826
But yeah, I have a full-time job.
00:19:15.457 --> 00:19:24.326
And a part-time job both doing communications, one for an academic publisher and the other for an education nonprofit.
00:19:24.730 --> 00:19:39.780
And I will say that my full-time job is they are warming up to the idea of infusing internal communications with storytelling which is cool, but also wild to me because they hired me as a storyteller.
00:19:39.780 --> 00:19:43.080
And so when I came in and they were like, so we want you to work on all this strategy.
00:19:43.080 --> 00:19:44.191
I was like, that's cool.
00:19:44.191 --> 00:19:45.871
When I, when do I get to tell stories though?
00:19:45.931 --> 00:19:58.431
Like when do I, and so it has been an interesting journey of trying to get the buy-in of can we tell employee stories and have that be part of our strategy for engagement?
00:19:58.881 --> 00:20:03.550
And so it's writing adjacent not really the writing that I love to be doing.
00:20:04.881 --> 00:20:13.928
And how do you, I don't wanna say how do you balance it all, but We've talked in the past about sometimes having a job forces you to write'cause you have less time.
00:20:13.928 --> 00:20:15.323
Like when you have all day to write.
00:20:15.417 --> 00:20:16.647
I I don't write for reason.
00:20:16.718 --> 00:20:17.008
Yeah.
00:20:18.087 --> 00:20:18.657
That's true.
00:20:19.188 --> 00:20:20.417
I will say that.
00:20:20.417 --> 00:20:20.748
I will.
00:20:20.748 --> 00:20:21.228
You're right.
00:20:21.228 --> 00:20:25.397
I will find everything under the sun to do except write when I have time.
00:20:25.758 --> 00:20:38.748
It does help to know that I've got like a good hour and a half after job two to do something so those moments of I've got an hour, what can I get done?
00:20:39.147 --> 00:20:41.595
I can usually produce something.
00:20:41.954 --> 00:20:48.515
I haven't been great with having a practice though, really having a daily practice or even a weekly practice.
00:20:48.875 --> 00:20:53.900
And that's something, as much as I love structure, I don't have routines, I'm just out here free balling.
00:20:53.900 --> 00:20:56.664
I'm just doing the best that I'm doing the best that I can with what I got.
00:20:57.154 --> 00:20:59.644
And so maybe it'd be.
00:21:00.365 --> 00:21:17.250
Nice to have some sort of loose routine where I could, actually set aside time to write because it does for me it gets the short end of the stick because once I finish job two, if I'm tired, I'm not opening, I'm another program or a book or a notebook.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:18.130
Yeah,
00:21:18.634 --> 00:21:19.295
no, that's wild.
00:21:19.295 --> 00:21:19.595
You're doing
00:21:19.595 --> 00:21:20.126
three jobs.
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:27.980
especially if I feel like it's hard when you have jobs that are writing and using that part of your brain.
00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:28.940
You're like, oh my yeah.
00:21:28.970 --> 00:21:29.599
I've done this.
00:21:30.289 --> 00:21:30.529
Yeah.
00:21:30.529 --> 00:21:33.589
You've been writing, you've been looking at Word documents all day.
00:21:33.589 --> 00:21:35.089
You've been, and yeah.
00:21:35.089 --> 00:21:44.089
No, and it, it is a different type of writing, but it's just the time that I think to turn that part of my brain off to really focus on this.
00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:46.949
A lot of the times it's just not there.
00:21:46.949 --> 00:21:49.288
When they have icebreakers and it's what do you do for fun?
00:21:49.288 --> 00:21:50.398
And I'm like, what is that?
00:21:50.443 --> 00:21:50.743
I don't.
00:21:50.743 --> 00:21:50.834
Yeah.
00:21:50.834 --> 00:21:51.493
What fun?
00:21:51.509 --> 00:21:53.548
We are out here working.
00:21:53.548 --> 00:21:55.378
I'm like, what things that I do?
00:21:55.429 --> 00:22:05.028
I had a very strong concerningly, strong, according to my mom true crime period where I would unwind with just death.
00:22:05.209 --> 00:22:09.019
Like I would just I think maybe he should look at something else.
00:22:09.068 --> 00:22:12.644
But I write dark stuff and yeah, but that's how I would unwind
00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:14.528
What's a show that you particularly like?
00:22:15.769 --> 00:22:23.388
I was on a very strong dateline kick ever since I found out that Samsung tv.
00:22:23.798 --> 00:22:28.598
Samsung TV had a whole Dateline channel and it was like 24/7 Dateline.
00:22:28.598 --> 00:22:31.358
And my mom was like, oh my god, please.
00:22:31.628 --> 00:22:33.999
So Dateline, I love a 20/20.
00:22:34.479 --> 00:22:39.778
There was a show called, Phrogger, which I didn't know what a phrogger was.
00:22:39.808 --> 00:22:45.659
It is someone that inhabits a home, unbeknownst to the owners.
00:22:45.659 --> 00:22:51.449
So like just somebody living in the walls, someone living in the, and I was like, this is wild.
00:22:51.499 --> 00:22:52.848
It's not funny, but it is.
00:22:52.848 --> 00:22:55.068
'cause I'm just like, what do you mean you were in the walls?
00:22:55.118 --> 00:22:55.689
What do you mean?
00:22:56.134 --> 00:22:57.183
The audacity,
00:23:02.527 --> 00:23:06.412
do you get inspired by news stories or true stories?
00:23:06.412 --> 00:23:08.017
Does that make its way into your work?
00:23:09.354 --> 00:23:10.134
News stories?
00:23:10.134 --> 00:23:17.124
No, experiences and and stories from my family and retellings of things.
00:23:17.124 --> 00:23:17.693
Yes.
00:23:18.384 --> 00:23:25.263
I'm good for taking some sort of ghost story that my parents have shared and finding new, a way to put that in my work.
00:23:25.534 --> 00:23:30.259
I had a really I am laughing because of the love part that I have to write.
00:23:30.588 --> 00:23:37.314
I tried dating last fall and I had a really bad date and he was very.
00:23:37.977 --> 00:23:41.757
Obsessed with my being a writer in a way that really made me uncomfortable.
00:23:42.297 --> 00:23:45.596
He was always talking about my writing and I was just like, Ooh, can we just not?
00:23:46.047 --> 00:23:55.801
And during the date he revealed that he was so concerned with impressing me because I'm a writer, that he used chat GPT for all of our text conversations.
00:23:55.842 --> 00:23:57.551
Wow.
00:23:57.551 --> 00:23:57.553
No.
00:23:57.553 --> 00:23:57.554
Wow.
00:23:57.567 --> 00:23:59.517
that made it into the book because.
00:23:59.882 --> 00:24:11.521
I couldn't make it up because I would've never thought that something as labor intensive as copying and pasting a text exchange and chat chat GBT is something that someone would do.
00:24:11.852 --> 00:24:19.021
And so that made it into the book as just like a one-liner of kind of the losers that my, my main character was dating.
00:24:19.321 --> 00:24:26.267
It's so interesting because I feel like when I'm trying to connect with someone, i'm hoping that they will like me.
00:24:26.416 --> 00:24:31.426
So the idea that they would like a robot from my computer, that's just insane.
00:24:31.757 --> 00:24:36.771
And it was just so wild because he wasn't able to carry a conversation in person and so I was like, okay.
00:24:36.771 --> 00:24:36.852
I.
00:24:36.882 --> 00:24:37.622
That's telling.
00:24:37.826 --> 00:24:38.445
This is the future by the way
00:24:38.547 --> 00:24:43.991
It's, it's, you it's, it's, scary how much people rely on chat GPT.
00:24:43.991 --> 00:24:47.122
I'm like, not for dating, not for the conversations.
00:24:47.122 --> 00:24:47.842
That's wild.
00:24:47.842 --> 00:25:01.086
And but he was also very fixated on the types of things that I wrote about and my lived experience, making it into my stories, which it doesn't necessarily, but that had to go in because why would you do that?
00:25:01.402 --> 00:25:01.821
Wonder.
00:25:01.961 --> 00:25:06.666
So bizarre wonder if he was attempting to be amms, but he was not
00:25:06.696 --> 00:25:07.207
Yeah.
00:25:07.567 --> 00:25:07.836
that.
00:25:08.267 --> 00:25:09.826
Do you write about guys that you date?
00:25:09.826 --> 00:25:12.497
And I'm like, I don't even date enough to write, but like this.
00:25:12.497 --> 00:25:13.727
Yeah, I'm gonna have to,
00:25:13.967 --> 00:25:14.207
it.
00:25:14.291 --> 00:25:16.721
You made it congrats!.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:27.359
I remember you telling me a story about a residency you did in I think Martha's Vineyard.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.325
Would you share a little bit?
00:25:29.375 --> 00:25:32.565
Yeah, so it was the Renaissance House.
00:25:32.565 --> 00:25:40.095
I don't know if it's still going on because the organizer has since passed, but it was.
00:25:40.694 --> 00:25:45.970
It was very interesting, and again I had deemed 2023 as like my year of writing.
00:25:45.970 --> 00:26:04.769
I was gonna apply to all of the things, and so I'd applied to this residency and it had more of a mom and pop feel to it, but unbeknownst to me when I was applying, and then after being accepted, I got this list of dos and don'ts, like no sex will be had in this house.
00:26:04.769 --> 00:26:07.769
No drinking, no drugs will be taking place in this here home.
00:26:08.009 --> 00:26:12.450
And I was just like, what did I sign myself up for after having already paid, like the money is gone, child.
00:26:12.450 --> 00:26:13.200
Like she got it.
00:26:13.470 --> 00:26:21.549
And so I was like, oh my gosh, what have I signed myself up for Usually when you see rules like that, it's because somebody was doing those things.
00:26:21.549 --> 00:26:27.250
Somebody was in that woman's house making love and walking around naked and doing like just wild things.
00:26:28.259 --> 00:26:33.279
There was so many rules that I was just like, I'm just gonna be a good writer girl and I'm gonna be in the house.
00:26:33.549 --> 00:26:42.970
The way that it was phrased, it made it seem, and Martha's Vineyard, I guess is small and like people do know each other, but it just felt like she's got eyes all over this island.
00:26:42.970 --> 00:26:46.930
So you're not having a pint at the bar and coming home.
00:26:46.990 --> 00:26:47.890
'cause she's gonna know.
00:26:48.190 --> 00:26:50.220
And so it's like like she put the fear of God in me.
00:26:50.289 --> 00:26:53.470
So you literally weren't allowed to drink even off premises.
00:26:53.740 --> 00:26:54.700
Even off-premises.
00:26:54.700 --> 00:26:56.875
We, no, yeah, that was, yeah.
00:26:56.894 --> 00:26:57.595
She was not having,
00:26:57.625 --> 00:26:58.285
As adults.
00:26:58.775 --> 00:26:59.065
yeah,
00:26:59.335 --> 00:26:59.395
As adults,
00:26:59.769 --> 00:27:00.059
like
00:27:00.470 --> 00:27:04.940
I don't care if you gro you came here to write and so there will be nothing.
00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:07.250
There will be no mind altering substances.
00:27:07.250 --> 00:27:08.180
You came here to write.
00:27:08.779 --> 00:27:09.799
But it was fun.
00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:17.059
And it was very homey because we stayed in her home with her, but yeah, it was definitely one of the more interesting residencies that I've done.
00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:18.400
I love it.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:19.640
Did you get a lot of work done?
00:27:20.585 --> 00:27:24.125
Yes, because we had a man, we had mandatory writing time.
00:27:24.634 --> 00:27:28.974
I think it was three hours in the morning, just like, and no talking.
00:27:29.634 --> 00:27:36.585
I think one day, like some, I don't know, we weren't even talking that much, but she called from the other room are those voices I hear?
00:27:36.585 --> 00:27:38.694
And I said, oh my God, I will shut up.
00:27:39.815 --> 00:27:41.474
When you're like, you're not about to get me in trouble.
00:27:41.474 --> 00:27:42.065
Shut up.
00:27:42.450 --> 00:27:43.549
That what it was
00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:46.009
did you feel like you were like eight years old?
00:27:46.924 --> 00:27:48.934
You did feel like you were living in Big Mama's house.
00:27:48.934 --> 00:27:52.684
And I was just like I'm just gonna respect Big Mama's rules because she doesn't play.
00:27:53.255 --> 00:27:57.305
But she's also really quirky and fun.
00:27:57.875 --> 00:28:05.595
She had this picture with a close friend and this Andy Warhol like album of photos and she's naked in a tub.
00:28:05.595 --> 00:28:08.325
And so she had fun, like she lived a good life.
00:28:08.325 --> 00:28:08.805
You know what I mean?
00:28:08.805 --> 00:28:12.615
So it was just very funny for her to be like, and y'all will not be doing the same on my watch.
00:28:13.184 --> 00:28:14.085
It was like, okay.
00:28:14.714 --> 00:28:15.434
Alright girl.
00:28:15.744 --> 00:28:16.615
But it was fun.
00:28:16.704 --> 00:28:17.329
It was a good time.
00:28:22.855 --> 00:28:29.575
I would say it's all right if you can't hit 1000 words, and all you can do is fill up a Post-it note.
00:28:30.259 --> 00:28:30.869
Beautiful.
00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:31.750
Beautiful.
00:28:32.650 --> 00:28:33.549
That's our podcast.
00:28:34.394 --> 00:28:34.990
Thank you so much.
00:28:35.835 --> 00:28:36.194
Of course.
00:28:36.194 --> 00:28:37.095
No, thank you.
00:28:37.095 --> 00:28:37.904
This was fun.
00:28:43.163 --> 00:28:46.192
We'll be dropping new episodes every other Tuesday.
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:54.200
You can find us on Instagram at It's All Write pod and you can drop us a line at, isallwritepod@gmail.com.
00:28:54.306 --> 00:28:56.645
Write, spelled W-R-I-T-E.
00:28:56.983 --> 00:29:01.943
Make sure to, subscribe, like all those things.
00:29:01.993 --> 00:29:05.338
Wherever you get your podcasts, Tune in next time.
