WEBVTT
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War is immoral, poverty is immoral,
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racism is immoral,
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police brutality is immoral,
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oppression is immoral,
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genocide is immoral,
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imperialism is immoral.
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This country represents all those things.
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Sick of the trolls?
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Confused by fake news?
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Afraid of what the fascists might do next?
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My Global Warning guest this week is
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widely recognized as one of the foremost
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experts on the far right, online and off,
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and helps organizations, policymakers,
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and everyday individuals combat digital
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toxicity and right-wing extremism.
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now ceo and founding partner of inviolable
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focused on guiding organizations in
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building resilience against targeted
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harassment and hate melissa ryan began
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this work in in response to what she
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saw as platforming of fringe extremist
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groups by mainstream media this turned
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into control alt-right delete
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her brilliantly named weekly newsletter
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with tens of thousands of readers.
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But that's not all.
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Our guest is regularly quoted by the likes
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of the New York Times, Washington Post,
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NPR, Reuters, and the Nineteenth News.
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Former President Barack Obama cited her
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work in his remarks on disinformation.
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Melissa was actually selected to join the
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twenty twenty three inaugural cohort of
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the Obama Foundation USA Leaders Program
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and still serves as a board chair of
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Netroots Nation.
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She has also been a featured speaker at
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Harvard Kennedy School of Government,
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the New York Daily News Innovation Lab and
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the Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum.
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Previously,
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Melissa served as digital strategist for
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progressive campaigns and causes,
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raising money, mobilizing activists,
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driving online conversation and shaping
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the media narrative.
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Before that, like me,
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she was a local journalist in Connecticut.
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As she'll demonstrate across our
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conversation,
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her extensive and varied background
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affords her unparalleled insights into the
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spread of fascism, media complicity,
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disinformation and online toxicity,
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far-right extremist networks,
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and how we organize online.
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That's what we'll discuss.
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Melissa, thanks for joining me.
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Thank you.
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That may be the best intro I've ever
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had.
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I'm going to try to live up to
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it,
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and I may be hiring you as my
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hype man from now on.
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That would be my honor.
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It's what I do best,
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believe it or not.
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Thank you.
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And every word is true and well-deserved.
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Before we get into your work and how
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we combat fascism online and off,
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let's go back to the beginning with your
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reflections.
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In the wake of the Zoran victory in
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New York,
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what are you seeing in today's successful
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organizing that further cements your
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longtime beliefs about what works and what
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doesn't?
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And what, if anything,
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is new in creating waves?
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Sure.
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Well,
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I'm excited about Mamdani in New York.
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I also want to give out a shout
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out to Katie Wilson,
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the new mayor here in Seattle.
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I think it's both a wave of this
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combination of fighting back against
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fascism and economic populism.
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I mean, I think the fact that
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affordability and universal childcare were
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part of both of their platforms.
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I think they do not just a great
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job of connecting affordability,
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but also connecting it to fascism and the
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current administration and the people in
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power are keeping you from having the life
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you want.
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We have this big debate right now.
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Is it affordability?
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Is it democracy?
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And I think
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what Mamdami in particular has been able
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to do is say it's both and it's
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actually these people keeping you from the
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basic goods and services that you should
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have.
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That's very smart.
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Yeah.
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The oligarchy is something people toss
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around a lot,
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but they maybe don't understand that
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connection between policy,
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economics at the micro and macro levels
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and how it affects us.
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Someone just came out with a new report
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that the poverty line is not thirty one
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thousand,
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but something like one hundred and thirty
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five thousand.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I mean,
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I think this debate is maddening to me,
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and I'm not a both sides-ism person,
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but both sides of this debate drives me
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crazy,
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the affordability people and the democracy
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people.
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And it's like, your job,
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if you want to create change,
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is to show the threads and to show
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the through lines and to tell that story
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successfully.
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And the more we have this debate,
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just the more maddening it makes me.
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I think that's one of the reasons,
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if you read my newsletter,
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you've probably heard me talk about Tesla
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takedowns so much.
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And part of the reason is because I
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think that was such an effective economic
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campaign that tied to like,
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these are the people in power who are
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making your life worse.
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And here is how to make this man's
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life worse,
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like by hitting his pocketbook.
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And I don't think I've seen, well,
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maybe the target boycotts from black
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churches that we've seen this year.
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But I mean,
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just the through line of like,
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these are the people that are making your
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life worse.
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And here's how to hit them back.
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Yeah, that's a really good point.
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And you have a background, as I mentioned,
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in working on progressive campaigns.
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Before you see the results, of course,
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how do you distinguish between a
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politician or a cause that would truly
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chip away at our unjust system or one
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that merely wants to ride the democratic
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wave to personal success?
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Sure.
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I mean, I really don't love that binary.
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I think one of the biggest problems we
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have when we look at elections and
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candidates is
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is we sort of create this star system.
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We build up these idols and then we
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get upset when they can't possibly
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deliver.
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I think it's really important to think
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about what is the job that these folks
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are hired to do.
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They should be constantly trying to keep
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that job, not just get promoted.
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And I think it's also important to think
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about like nobody is irreplaceable.
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You know,
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there have been politicians that I've
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liked that I've been disappointed by.
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And, you know,
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I've really become very mercenary about
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it.
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Like if you're not delivering something,
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If you're not doing the right thing,
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you've got to go.
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And maybe you came in with good intentions
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and maybe for whatever reason.
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At the same time,
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I try to show some grace.
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I actually, you know,
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I worked for Democratic senators for many
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years,
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raising money and mobilizing for them.
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I would say some have disappointed me,
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some have not.
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But I think it's important to look at
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the context of the job.
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And they need to hear from us constantly.
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And a lot of times when I see
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that senators in particular seem out of
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touch, I'm like,
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I wonder what they're hearing from their
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constituents.
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And I wonder who's coming to their town
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halls when they have them.
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I wonder who's coming to their fundraisers
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to grump at them.
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um you know it's really on us as
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citizens to constantly demand from
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politicians we like and politicians we
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don't uh that they actually serve us and
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they do right by us i love that
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it's it's so important and something that
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a lot of people who may consider
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themselves on the left so to speak but
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i would classify if i had to as
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as more liberal or or neoliberal um
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are offended if you want to hold people
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you've elected accountable.
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And I think it's not out of some
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kind of malice.
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It's out of fear that if you point
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out any imperfections in a Democrat,
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then they'll be replaced by a Republican.
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I don't think that's necessarily true.
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And from from what you've said,
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I sense that you also have experienced
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this,
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that you can have multiple Democrats
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running and one can be far more to
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the people than another.
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So just to clarify for anyone wondering,
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are you blue no matter who?
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Do you know what that means?
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Have you heard it a lot?
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And assuming you do, why or why not?
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Sure.
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It's an interesting question.
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I don't know that I'm blue no matter
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who.
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I would say that most of the time
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I am going to vote for the Democrat.
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I am a big believer in primaries.
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I'm a big fan of primaries because I
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think that's how you get the best
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candidate for the best nominee for your
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party that's close to the constituents.
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So I would say
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Most of the time,
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if they have won the primary and shown
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that they have the support of most of
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the constituents,
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that's going to be my candidate.
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There are a couple of exceptions.
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I think if a hardline anti-choicer for me
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got the nomination,
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I would have a hard time voting for
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that person.
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Similarly,
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someone who was known to have consistently
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racist and misogynist and homophobic
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views.
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Sorry, it's nine in Seattle,
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so I'm still drinking my coffee.
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I do it all the time.
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You're good.
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Then it becomes hard for me to vote
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for that person as well.
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Right.
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Right.
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And then you, of course, have people who,
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you know,
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might really hit you where it matters.
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You feel everything that you're saying,
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but there might be some fear that their
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views would be considered by the majority
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of the populace as too radical.
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And then there's the fear that putting too
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much support in them,
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at least if there's not ranked choice
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voting,
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could lead to someone that you really
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don't want being elected.
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To me, go ahead.
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I mean, I think, too,
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one thing that as a Democrat,
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like not even speaking as a progressive,
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but I do think it's important to try
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to support the nominee of the party
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whenever possible.
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And what happens all the time,
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and we just saw it in New York
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and we just saw it in Seattle,
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is when the moderate or more corporatist
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candidate wins, then it's like, oh,
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we got to rally behind him.
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We got to do everything we can.
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And then when the progressive candidate
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wins, you know,
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people don't fall in line nearly as
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quickly.
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So I think it's important for us to
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demand that when the progressive candidate
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wins and create that expectation.
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And that means, you know,
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sometimes we have to, you know, eat shit.
00:10:20.078 --> 00:10:22.740
Excuse me for cursing and support the
00:10:22.779 --> 00:10:24.240
corporate is just in the case of like
00:10:24.301 --> 00:10:25.542
not getting a Republican in there.
00:10:26.313 --> 00:10:28.554
yeah yeah i get that and i and
00:10:28.634 --> 00:10:31.355
i do see among politicians and everyday
00:10:31.375 --> 00:10:34.535
people that you know they're more you know
00:10:34.716 --> 00:10:39.096
centrist than than leftist as long as
00:10:39.116 --> 00:10:40.636
they're not on the right i see them
00:10:40.697 --> 00:10:42.977
as well-intentioned and and possibly just
00:10:43.038 --> 00:10:46.739
misinformed or a little afraid of what um
00:10:46.899 --> 00:10:49.418
taking a risk might mean um to me
00:10:49.458 --> 00:10:51.840
the real difference between the left and
00:10:51.860 --> 00:10:52.299
the right
00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:56.503
no matter how extreme one's views are,
00:10:58.063 --> 00:11:00.086
is what drives us.
00:11:01.547 --> 00:11:03.908
For me, it's love, love for human beings,
00:11:03.948 --> 00:11:05.669
love for animals, love for the earth,
00:11:06.149 --> 00:11:08.412
and hate for injustice and inequality.
00:11:09.832 --> 00:11:12.755
I see the right as kind of being
00:11:12.796 --> 00:11:14.517
directed by the opposite.
00:11:15.658 --> 00:11:16.518
But on the other hand,
00:11:16.538 --> 00:11:19.120
there are people who work for Democrats
00:11:19.179 --> 00:11:21.182
who are more in the mainstream
00:11:22.643 --> 00:11:26.128
you know election industry if that's a
00:11:26.187 --> 00:11:29.892
thing um who consider all extremists the
00:11:29.932 --> 00:11:32.596
same left or right i'm curious what your
00:11:32.615 --> 00:11:35.860
take is on that um extremism in general
00:11:35.940 --> 00:11:37.741
and is there a difference between someone
00:11:37.802 --> 00:11:39.764
on the far left and someone on the
00:11:39.804 --> 00:11:40.346
far right
00:11:41.634 --> 00:11:42.293
Absolutely.
00:11:42.514 --> 00:11:44.875
There is a huge asymmetry.
00:11:45.894 --> 00:11:47.836
And the minute you start talking about
00:11:47.895 --> 00:11:48.735
both sides,
00:11:48.916 --> 00:11:51.297
you lose me completely because you clearly
00:11:51.317 --> 00:11:53.076
do not understand the situation.
00:11:54.037 --> 00:11:56.077
Not just that the right has more extreme
00:11:56.118 --> 00:11:57.717
views, but, you know,
00:11:57.817 --> 00:12:00.058
the extreme right who have, you know,
00:12:00.458 --> 00:12:01.620
spent the last ten,
00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:04.140
fifteen years completely taking over the
00:12:04.181 --> 00:12:05.081
Republican Party.
00:12:05.861 --> 00:12:07.381
They also have been working on
00:12:07.442 --> 00:12:08.562
concentrating power.
00:12:08.923 --> 00:12:10.484
There's a lot of money behind them.
00:12:11.303 --> 00:12:13.284
So obviously their views are not
00:12:13.644 --> 00:12:14.306
symmetrical,
00:12:14.426 --> 00:12:16.506
but the amount of resources behind them
00:12:16.586 --> 00:12:18.567
and the amount of power that they hold
00:12:18.927 --> 00:12:20.928
within the political establishment of
00:12:20.969 --> 00:12:23.409
their party is absolutely not.
00:12:23.590 --> 00:12:24.470
It's asymmetrical.
00:12:24.570 --> 00:12:25.691
There's just no comparison.
00:12:29.630 --> 00:12:30.851
Okay, that's good to know.
00:12:31.972 --> 00:12:33.094
Now, what about the media?
00:12:33.693 --> 00:12:35.695
As someone who is a journalist,
00:12:35.774 --> 00:12:37.096
as someone who has worked for the
00:12:37.115 --> 00:12:39.717
Associated Press, I will admit,
00:12:40.198 --> 00:12:41.460
even though AP,
00:12:41.580 --> 00:12:43.280
Reuters maybe strives for it,
00:12:43.380 --> 00:12:45.282
I don't even believe in objectivity.
00:12:46.043 --> 00:12:47.524
But there is a difference between
00:12:47.583 --> 00:12:49.424
editorializing and lying,
00:12:49.826 --> 00:12:51.486
sharing your opinion and spreading
00:12:51.527 --> 00:12:52.548
disinformation.
00:12:53.008 --> 00:12:55.309
Who is responsible for what we see and
00:12:55.370 --> 00:12:55.549
hear?
00:12:56.738 --> 00:12:56.918
Yeah,
00:12:57.018 --> 00:12:59.160
I think the media stuff is particularly
00:12:59.201 --> 00:13:01.082
interesting because when you think about
00:13:01.243 --> 00:13:03.905
the concentration of power that's
00:13:03.926 --> 00:13:04.426
happening,
00:13:04.546 --> 00:13:05.967
not just with the election of President
00:13:06.008 --> 00:13:06.288
Trump,
00:13:06.707 --> 00:13:08.429
it's not enough for the folks who are
00:13:08.470 --> 00:13:11.352
in power to have economic control over our
00:13:11.413 --> 00:13:11.813
lives.
00:13:12.221 --> 00:13:14.404
they now want more control over what we
00:13:14.465 --> 00:13:16.206
read and see and hear.
00:13:16.267 --> 00:13:17.967
So you're seeing that with outlets like
00:13:18.009 --> 00:13:19.769
Bezos buying the Washington Post and
00:13:19.811 --> 00:13:22.033
obviously clearly taking a firmer
00:13:22.113 --> 00:13:23.875
editorial hand than he had initially.
00:13:24.956 --> 00:13:25.976
The New York Times, I mean,
00:13:26.017 --> 00:13:26.817
some of their coverage,
00:13:26.857 --> 00:13:28.399
the way they have covered power and
00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:29.061
concentration
00:13:29.640 --> 00:13:31.361
and politics is abysmal.
00:13:32.202 --> 00:13:34.624
You see Mark Zuckerberg doing a complete
00:13:34.703 --> 00:13:38.527
one eighty on what kind of hate and
00:13:38.567 --> 00:13:40.488
harm policies Facebook is going to have.
00:13:40.668 --> 00:13:41.607
Elon Musk, of course,
00:13:41.648 --> 00:13:44.269
bought a social media platform outright.
00:13:44.669 --> 00:13:45.910
So I think it's really important to
00:13:45.990 --> 00:13:46.390
understand.
00:13:46.410 --> 00:13:48.312
I'm less concerned about left right bias
00:13:48.332 --> 00:13:48.932
because, like you said,
00:13:48.952 --> 00:13:50.514
we all come in with our own biases.
00:13:51.014 --> 00:13:53.294
and more about who owns this platform,
00:13:53.696 --> 00:13:56.216
who decides who's getting hired and who
00:13:56.277 --> 00:13:58.018
decides what's getting published and
00:13:58.038 --> 00:13:58.837
what's getting killed.
00:13:58.857 --> 00:14:01.440
And I think that's really a more effective
00:14:01.460 --> 00:14:03.081
way to look at our media diet at
00:14:03.100 --> 00:14:04.701
this point, which makes it hard, right?
00:14:04.741 --> 00:14:07.403
When I first started writing my newsletter
00:14:07.523 --> 00:14:09.244
in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,
00:14:09.583 --> 00:14:11.065
there were so many news sources.
00:14:11.105 --> 00:14:13.306
There were so many reporters covering this
00:14:13.407 --> 00:14:14.826
emerging dystopia beat.
00:14:15.687 --> 00:14:16.827
There were times that it could have been
00:14:16.948 --> 00:14:19.190
all BuzzFeed news or all articles from
00:14:19.230 --> 00:14:19.570
Vice.
00:14:19.909 --> 00:14:21.711
BuzzFeed News is obviously gone.
00:14:21.772 --> 00:14:23.274
Vice is a shell of itself.
00:14:24.115 --> 00:14:26.517
It becomes harder as someone who covers
00:14:26.557 --> 00:14:28.719
this just because there's so much less
00:14:28.798 --> 00:14:30.600
journalism about it than there was ten
00:14:30.640 --> 00:14:31.902
years ago.
00:14:31.942 --> 00:14:32.202
Yeah.
00:14:34.255 --> 00:14:35.517
That's a really great point.
00:14:35.596 --> 00:14:38.681
It's becoming harder to be a journalist in
00:14:38.740 --> 00:14:40.903
every possible way, to keep a job.
00:14:41.224 --> 00:14:43.567
We just saw Teen Vogue collapse too.
00:14:45.448 --> 00:14:47.171
And then of course the dangers of being
00:14:47.331 --> 00:14:49.192
a journalist, literally speaking,
00:14:49.254 --> 00:14:51.096
the amount of journalists who are killed
00:14:51.176 --> 00:14:52.336
or injured on the job.
00:14:53.558 --> 00:14:55.559
increases exponentially, it seems,
00:14:55.660 --> 00:14:56.380
every year.
00:14:57.601 --> 00:14:59.965
How does net neutrality play into this?
00:15:00.164 --> 00:15:02.687
Without it, who will control the internet?
00:15:03.347 --> 00:15:04.249
As you pointed out,
00:15:04.369 --> 00:15:07.532
as it filters into fewer and fewer
00:15:07.591 --> 00:15:08.172
companies,
00:15:08.371 --> 00:15:10.774
what about people like us who may have
00:15:10.835 --> 00:15:13.317
our own newsletter or our own podcast?
00:15:13.717 --> 00:15:15.239
What's the future going to look like?
00:15:16.225 --> 00:15:16.645
Yeah, I mean,
00:15:16.745 --> 00:15:19.427
I think net neutrality is part of a
00:15:19.528 --> 00:15:20.947
much bigger shit.
00:15:20.967 --> 00:15:22.469
It almost feels quaint to talk about
00:15:22.548 --> 00:15:24.809
considering the way that concentration of
00:15:25.009 --> 00:15:27.631
power has happened over the past couple of
00:15:27.672 --> 00:15:28.032
years.
00:15:28.131 --> 00:15:28.312
I mean,
00:15:28.331 --> 00:15:30.832
it's interesting because on the one hand,
00:15:30.952 --> 00:15:33.514
you see so many laid off journalists or
00:15:33.575 --> 00:15:35.696
journalists who've moved on to sub stacks.
00:15:36.821 --> 00:15:38.062
or to podcasts,
00:15:38.542 --> 00:15:39.802
and some are doing really well.
00:15:40.844 --> 00:15:42.125
But there's a limit to that, right?
00:15:42.164 --> 00:15:43.647
I mean, you mentioned in the beginning,
00:15:43.687 --> 00:15:45.488
I got into this through local political
00:15:45.508 --> 00:15:45.908
blogging,
00:15:46.269 --> 00:15:47.769
and there is a limit to what you
00:15:47.789 --> 00:15:49.371
can do as an individual.
00:15:50.392 --> 00:15:53.434
It is harder for groups to come together
00:15:53.534 --> 00:15:56.116
and form new publications and find funding
00:15:56.158 --> 00:15:56.557
for that.
00:15:57.738 --> 00:15:59.859
And it's harder to, you know,
00:15:59.918 --> 00:16:01.639
start something like a podcast because
00:16:01.700 --> 00:16:03.200
where are you going to find the capital?
00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:04.000
And then there's just,
00:16:04.100 --> 00:16:05.640
I think there's a limit to the audience
00:16:05.681 --> 00:16:06.902
an individual can have,
00:16:07.261 --> 00:16:08.701
particularly as more folks are
00:16:08.741 --> 00:16:09.403
individuals.
00:16:09.482 --> 00:16:11.043
And I think about, you know,
00:16:11.504 --> 00:16:13.484
there are five or six journalists at
00:16:13.524 --> 00:16:16.745
BuzzFeed News that I used to read their
00:16:16.764 --> 00:16:17.586
work religiously.
00:16:17.666 --> 00:16:19.225
If they all had sub stacks and I'm
00:16:19.245 --> 00:16:20.706
paying all eighty dollars a year,
00:16:20.746 --> 00:16:22.307
that adds up really quickly.
00:16:22.628 --> 00:16:24.567
So there's also just a limit to scale
00:16:24.628 --> 00:16:25.889
of what the consumer can afford.
00:16:26.912 --> 00:16:27.091
Yep.
00:16:27.392 --> 00:16:28.774
I was waiting for that part.
00:16:28.953 --> 00:16:30.075
And for what it's worth,
00:16:30.134 --> 00:16:31.735
my podcast costs nothing.
00:16:31.855 --> 00:16:33.397
It's the only reason I can do it.
00:16:35.259 --> 00:16:37.080
What can the average person then do to
00:16:37.160 --> 00:16:40.342
ensure they're getting whatever's closest
00:16:40.383 --> 00:16:41.203
to the truth?
00:16:41.864 --> 00:16:44.807
And what can we do to fight back
00:16:44.846 --> 00:16:46.628
to help protect ourselves and our
00:16:46.668 --> 00:16:47.149
neighbors?
00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:48.720
Yeah, I mean,
00:16:48.820 --> 00:16:50.301
I think part of it is just being
00:16:50.341 --> 00:16:51.480
a skeptical consumer,
00:16:52.640 --> 00:16:55.142
particularly when you're seeing news on
00:16:55.241 --> 00:16:57.722
social media.
00:16:58.023 --> 00:16:59.423
Social media in particular,
00:16:59.462 --> 00:17:01.543
the headlines and the images and such,
00:17:01.604 --> 00:17:03.803
they are designed to give you an emotional
00:17:03.864 --> 00:17:04.324
reaction.
00:17:04.824 --> 00:17:06.744
As former digital strategist,
00:17:06.805 --> 00:17:08.125
I used to be on the other side
00:17:08.144 --> 00:17:08.704
of this, right?
00:17:09.645 --> 00:17:11.266
So if something gives you an emotional
00:17:11.306 --> 00:17:12.145
reaction, well,
00:17:12.385 --> 00:17:14.487
why do they want me having that reaction?
00:17:14.926 --> 00:17:16.188
What's the story behind it?
00:17:16.307 --> 00:17:18.911
Is there a less inflammatory source I can
00:17:18.951 --> 00:17:19.351
find?
00:17:20.372 --> 00:17:21.413
So often I'm just like,
00:17:21.512 --> 00:17:23.134
just Google it and see if there are
00:17:23.174 --> 00:17:24.736
other stories about it that come from an
00:17:24.855 --> 00:17:26.798
outlet you've you've heard of and not even
00:17:26.837 --> 00:17:28.019
like a neutral outlet.
00:17:28.058 --> 00:17:28.298
Right.
00:17:28.358 --> 00:17:30.340
And if it's Daily Kos or if it's
00:17:30.361 --> 00:17:30.942
the bulwark,
00:17:31.382 --> 00:17:34.084
it's probably that means the story is
00:17:34.144 --> 00:17:34.424
real.
00:17:34.464 --> 00:17:36.787
So just doing some basic due diligence and
00:17:36.826 --> 00:17:38.268
having some skepticism, I think,
00:17:38.307 --> 00:17:38.989
is a big start.
00:17:40.042 --> 00:17:40.943
Great advice.
00:17:41.124 --> 00:17:42.705
And on that note,
00:17:43.227 --> 00:17:45.849
how to online toxicity and hate filter
00:17:45.890 --> 00:17:46.911
into real life.
00:17:46.971 --> 00:17:50.454
What are we seeing beyond ice and beyond
00:17:51.016 --> 00:17:54.000
people pretending to be ice and empowering
00:17:54.019 --> 00:17:56.522
themselves that way beyond just running
00:17:56.623 --> 00:17:58.684
over Heather hires with pickup trucks?
00:17:59.286 --> 00:18:01.529
How are the far right groups leveraging
00:18:02.030 --> 00:18:04.816
the disinformation in the media and their
00:18:04.935 --> 00:18:07.621
online networks through Telegram and other
00:18:07.681 --> 00:18:09.884
avenues to manipulate and grow on the
00:18:09.924 --> 00:18:10.306
ground?
00:18:11.218 --> 00:18:11.597
Sure.
00:18:11.617 --> 00:18:13.500
You know, as Americans,
00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:16.442
we live under the constant threat of
00:18:16.541 --> 00:18:17.702
political violence.
00:18:18.804 --> 00:18:21.787
That is no matter who you are,
00:18:21.846 --> 00:18:23.587
no matter what you believe,
00:18:24.189 --> 00:18:27.230
if you fall out of favor, which,
00:18:27.310 --> 00:18:27.551
you know,
00:18:27.571 --> 00:18:29.272
Marjorie Taylor Greene just discovered.
00:18:31.013 --> 00:18:31.474
Side note,
00:18:31.595 --> 00:18:34.457
I find it just darkly hilarious that for
00:18:34.517 --> 00:18:36.618
years she deals with left wing harassment
00:18:36.679 --> 00:18:39.661
and then two days of harassment from
00:18:39.721 --> 00:18:40.142
Trump's
00:18:40.662 --> 00:18:41.143
supporters.
00:18:41.182 --> 00:18:41.923
And she's like, that's it.
00:18:41.962 --> 00:18:42.282
I'm done.
00:18:42.303 --> 00:18:42.604
I'm out.
00:18:42.663 --> 00:18:42.903
Bye.
00:18:43.844 --> 00:18:46.086
But I think that says something both about
00:18:46.145 --> 00:18:46.846
the asymmetry,
00:18:46.885 --> 00:18:49.268
but also just about the threat and that
00:18:49.307 --> 00:18:50.288
we're all vulnerable.
00:18:50.429 --> 00:18:51.269
And that really,
00:18:52.309 --> 00:18:53.931
that starts to mess with your head.
00:18:54.010 --> 00:18:55.652
And I don't think we talk about that
00:18:55.751 --> 00:18:57.894
enough as a country and as a culture,
00:18:58.493 --> 00:19:00.736
how much we've normalized school
00:19:00.796 --> 00:19:01.516
shootings,
00:19:01.615 --> 00:19:04.698
how much we've normalized politicians
00:19:04.758 --> 00:19:07.099
making violent threats on a daily basis,
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.061
how much we've normalized anonymous
00:19:10.481 --> 00:19:12.263
hate speech and harmful speech that
00:19:12.284 --> 00:19:13.644
becomes political violence.
00:19:14.404 --> 00:19:14.685
And, you know,
00:19:14.726 --> 00:19:16.487
the goal of that is to drive us
00:19:16.547 --> 00:19:17.307
into silence.
00:19:17.347 --> 00:19:18.407
The goal of that is not just to
00:19:18.449 --> 00:19:19.710
drive us offline,
00:19:20.049 --> 00:19:22.372
but to drive us out of political and
00:19:22.531 --> 00:19:23.352
civic life.
00:19:24.313 --> 00:19:25.854
And so I just I always want to
00:19:25.933 --> 00:19:28.135
acknowledge that because it's just we
00:19:28.175 --> 00:19:30.317
don't talk about that as enough as just
00:19:30.397 --> 00:19:31.818
in our discourse and also, I think,
00:19:31.858 --> 00:19:33.160
as activists and those of us who are
00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:34.040
trying to make change.
00:19:34.401 --> 00:19:35.662
And part of it is because sometimes if
00:19:35.682 --> 00:19:36.803
you think about it too much, you're like,
00:19:36.884 --> 00:19:38.265
oh, man, I just need a break.
00:19:38.365 --> 00:19:40.207
I just need to watch Netflix for a
00:19:40.227 --> 00:19:40.527
while.
00:19:40.886 --> 00:19:42.048
But it's really important, I think,
00:19:42.067 --> 00:19:44.289
to understand the impact that has on us
00:19:44.730 --> 00:19:45.811
and on our politics.
00:19:45.932 --> 00:19:48.854
It's also why it's so important to find
00:19:48.894 --> 00:19:51.096
ways to speak out and to be brave,
00:19:51.136 --> 00:19:53.218
because people who see the constant
00:19:53.358 --> 00:19:53.898
onslaught,
00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:56.101
they also see the numbers at the No
00:19:56.121 --> 00:19:57.021
Kings protests.
00:19:57.362 --> 00:19:59.544
They see the news coverage that Tesla
00:19:59.564 --> 00:20:00.463
takedown gets.
00:20:00.784 --> 00:20:04.186
They see when Mamdami and Katie Wilson win
00:20:04.326 --> 00:20:05.126
elections.
00:20:06.127 --> 00:20:07.568
So, you know, they see that, too,
00:20:07.588 --> 00:20:08.990
which is why I think it's so important
00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:10.790
if you when you can and as you
00:20:10.810 --> 00:20:13.292
are able to find ways to show up
00:20:13.413 --> 00:20:14.834
and show your bravery as well.
00:20:16.452 --> 00:20:17.252
That's excellent.
00:20:18.233 --> 00:20:19.213
Is there anything,
00:20:19.354 --> 00:20:21.953
although we're seeing some progress and we
00:20:21.993 --> 00:20:23.654
have moments of excitement,
00:20:24.734 --> 00:20:28.115
such as the recent electoral victories,
00:20:28.395 --> 00:20:31.336
but it feels, I hate to say it,
00:20:31.596 --> 00:20:32.396
but I'm scared.
00:20:32.436 --> 00:20:35.917
It feels like what's happening from the
00:20:35.978 --> 00:20:38.057
right, Project Twenty Twenty Five,
00:20:38.117 --> 00:20:40.739
Trump and Trump and team, it's working.
00:20:42.159 --> 00:20:44.119
And it's working at the ground level, too,
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:47.942
with these far right groups gaining power
00:20:47.981 --> 00:20:52.584
and gaining access to inside areas of the
00:20:52.624 --> 00:20:53.184
government.
00:20:54.585 --> 00:20:58.007
What can we close on here for Democrats,
00:20:58.866 --> 00:20:59.167
for
00:21:00.355 --> 00:21:03.318
humanists, for leaders on the left,
00:21:04.381 --> 00:21:06.282
is there anything we can learn from those
00:21:06.363 --> 00:21:08.404
on the right and apply it on the
00:21:08.444 --> 00:21:10.867
left to be more successful going forward
00:21:10.907 --> 00:21:13.089
to prevent future Trumps?
00:21:13.911 --> 00:21:14.131
I mean,
00:21:14.192 --> 00:21:15.452
I think the most important thing to
00:21:15.512 --> 00:21:18.296
understand is that we really can't go
00:21:18.355 --> 00:21:18.757
back.
00:21:19.217 --> 00:21:20.719
We can only move forward.
00:21:21.550 --> 00:21:23.592
And that gives us an incredible
00:21:23.692 --> 00:21:27.013
opportunity to reimagine what we want our
00:21:27.054 --> 00:21:29.095
country to be and how we want to
00:21:29.134 --> 00:21:29.935
be governed.
00:21:31.156 --> 00:21:33.758
I think if we can learn anything from
00:21:33.798 --> 00:21:35.999
the right, it's when they get power,
00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:38.500
they do everything they can.
00:21:39.361 --> 00:21:40.862
They know it's for a limited time.
00:21:40.882 --> 00:21:42.542
They try to hold on to that power,
00:21:42.643 --> 00:21:44.644
but they also act like tomorrow it could
00:21:44.663 --> 00:21:45.505
be all taken away.
00:21:46.664 --> 00:21:48.445
We don't do that really well on the
00:21:48.506 --> 00:21:48.865
left.
00:21:49.726 --> 00:21:51.267
So that's definitely something we can
00:21:51.307 --> 00:21:51.567
take.
00:21:51.586 --> 00:21:54.547
You know, should when we get power again,
00:21:54.626 --> 00:21:55.907
when we are able,
00:21:55.968 --> 00:21:58.308
hopefully at the next midterm elections or
00:21:58.328 --> 00:21:59.028
whatever places,
00:21:59.308 --> 00:22:01.108
we have to start leveraging that power as
00:22:01.128 --> 00:22:01.930
soon as we have it.
00:22:02.829 --> 00:22:04.509
I think we need we're seeing this with
00:22:04.549 --> 00:22:06.171
the blue states where we're starting to
00:22:06.211 --> 00:22:06.750
see more.
00:22:07.310 --> 00:22:08.192
fighting back,
00:22:09.393 --> 00:22:11.115
doing their own countermeasures and
00:22:11.134 --> 00:22:11.935
cooperation.
00:22:12.155 --> 00:22:14.878
I hope we see more of that next
00:22:14.919 --> 00:22:15.259
year.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.241
I hope that encourages states that are
00:22:17.301 --> 00:22:21.025
more purple to join and think about ways
00:22:21.065 --> 00:22:23.107
to leverage their power or at least the
00:22:23.167 --> 00:22:24.788
levers of power they have available.
00:22:25.589 --> 00:22:27.412
We also just have to make sure that
00:22:27.491 --> 00:22:29.134
the next election is free and fair.
00:22:29.394 --> 00:22:31.815
uh one advantage of america is that our
00:22:31.855 --> 00:22:34.557
elections are locally run um so i have
00:22:34.596 --> 00:22:36.157
no doubt that the trump administration is
00:22:36.178 --> 00:22:37.878
going to do everything they can to ensure
00:22:37.898 --> 00:22:39.779
that it's not free and fair uh but
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:40.980
it doesn't mean that it's going to be
00:22:41.080 --> 00:22:43.142
easy for them to do so um so
00:22:43.202 --> 00:22:44.462
i think that's also an important you know
00:22:44.482 --> 00:22:46.304
just understand what their goal and their
00:22:46.344 --> 00:22:49.046
agenda is uh and make sure we're ready
00:22:49.086 --> 00:22:50.767
to counter it wherever we can that we
00:22:50.807 --> 00:22:52.448
are using every lever of power that we
00:22:52.488 --> 00:22:53.429
have available to us
00:22:54.394 --> 00:22:54.933
Perfect.
00:22:55.074 --> 00:22:55.855
Thank you, Melissa.
00:22:55.994 --> 00:22:57.615
Um, I was,
00:22:57.755 --> 00:22:59.496
I was worried that I was going to
00:22:59.516 --> 00:23:02.457
leave this being even more scared, but I,
00:23:02.477 --> 00:23:03.938
but I haven't, and I'm not, um,
00:23:03.998 --> 00:23:06.219
people say that to me all the time.
00:23:06.278 --> 00:23:06.578
Yeah.
00:23:07.058 --> 00:23:08.339
I mean, this was empowering.
00:23:08.900 --> 00:23:10.579
I think that people can get quite a
00:23:10.641 --> 00:23:13.602
bit out of this conversation, um,
00:23:13.942 --> 00:23:16.323
as well as going to your website to
00:23:16.363 --> 00:23:17.063
hire you.
00:23:17.123 --> 00:23:18.824
That's melissaryan.net.
00:23:19.423 --> 00:23:20.364
Um, of course,
00:23:20.523 --> 00:23:22.585
everyone needs to check out control, alt,
00:23:22.644 --> 00:23:23.486
right, delete.
00:23:23.526 --> 00:23:24.246
Um,
00:23:24.546 --> 00:23:28.428
It's an incredible frequent dose of
00:23:28.488 --> 00:23:30.148
everything you need, you know,
00:23:30.209 --> 00:23:31.950
kind of tied to what we've been talking
00:23:31.990 --> 00:23:32.289
about.
00:23:33.049 --> 00:23:33.490
So, Melissa,
00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:35.131
thank you again for coming on.
00:23:35.810 --> 00:23:36.251
Listeners,
00:23:36.291 --> 00:23:38.093
if you've enjoyed this edition of Global
00:23:38.173 --> 00:23:39.593
Warming, be sure to like,
00:23:39.633 --> 00:23:40.794
comment and share.
00:23:41.253 --> 00:23:43.234
Check out the first five episodes,
00:23:43.414 --> 00:23:45.715
subscribe and become an official member.
00:23:46.296 --> 00:23:48.498
It's been an absolute pleasure, Melissa.
00:23:48.837 --> 00:23:51.138
I hope you stay in touch and I
00:23:51.179 --> 00:23:53.539
hope you continue this incredible work.
00:23:54.144 --> 00:23:55.384
Thank you so much for having me.
00:23:56.025 --> 00:23:56.704
My pleasure.
00:23:57.586 --> 00:24:00.086
This episode has been sponsored by Zivo
00:24:00.126 --> 00:24:01.167
Life Superfood,
00:24:01.327 --> 00:24:03.048
Good Feels Cannabis Seltzer,
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Shimmerwood CBD Infused Seltzers,
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exclusive discounts using code WARNING.
00:24:08.751 --> 00:24:10.353
Link in the video description.
00:24:10.854 --> 00:24:11.334
Thank you.
00:24:11.394 --> 00:24:12.575
Happy Thanksgiving,
00:24:12.815 --> 00:24:14.756
even though that's a ridiculous holiday,
00:24:14.796 --> 00:24:15.675
as you all know.
00:24:16.297 --> 00:24:19.157
And we'll see you next week for episode
00:24:19.459 --> 00:24:19.858
seven.
00:24:22.941 --> 00:24:25.721
War is immoral, poverty is immoral,
00:24:26.001 --> 00:24:27.303
racism is immoral,
00:24:27.542 --> 00:24:29.263
police brutality is immoral,
00:24:29.483 --> 00:24:30.605
oppression is immoral,
00:24:30.845 --> 00:24:32.025
genocide is immoral,
00:24:32.244 --> 00:24:33.546
imperialism is immoral.
00:24:33.865 --> 00:24:36.086
This country represents all those things.
00:00:00.009 --> 00:00:02.750
War is immoral, poverty is immoral,
00:00:03.031 --> 00:00:04.310
racism is immoral,
00:00:04.570 --> 00:00:06.272
police brutality is immoral,
00:00:06.511 --> 00:00:07.633
oppression is immoral,
00:00:07.873 --> 00:00:09.054
genocide is immoral,
00:00:09.273 --> 00:00:10.554
imperialism is immoral.
00:00:10.914 --> 00:00:13.115
This country represents all those things.
00:00:17.295 --> 00:00:18.336
Sick of the trolls?
00:00:19.097 --> 00:00:20.699
Confused by fake news?
00:00:21.300 --> 00:00:23.481
Afraid of what the fascists might do next?
00:00:24.283 --> 00:00:26.004
My Global Warning guest this week is
00:00:26.085 --> 00:00:28.407
widely recognized as one of the foremost
00:00:28.527 --> 00:00:31.289
experts on the far right, online and off,
00:00:31.751 --> 00:00:34.052
and helps organizations, policymakers,
00:00:34.112 --> 00:00:36.414
and everyday individuals combat digital
00:00:36.454 --> 00:00:38.616
toxicity and right-wing extremism.
00:00:39.417 --> 00:00:42.661
now ceo and founding partner of inviolable
00:00:42.801 --> 00:00:45.063
focused on guiding organizations in
00:00:45.103 --> 00:00:46.965
building resilience against targeted
00:00:47.005 --> 00:00:49.548
harassment and hate melissa ryan began
00:00:49.567 --> 00:00:52.930
this work in in response to what she
00:00:52.970 --> 00:00:55.533
saw as platforming of fringe extremist
00:00:55.573 --> 00:00:58.276
groups by mainstream media this turned
00:00:58.335 --> 00:01:00.258
into control alt-right delete
00:01:00.618 --> 00:01:02.759
her brilliantly named weekly newsletter
00:01:02.780 --> 00:01:04.421
with tens of thousands of readers.
00:01:04.802 --> 00:01:05.722
But that's not all.
00:01:05.923 --> 00:01:08.084
Our guest is regularly quoted by the likes
00:01:08.125 --> 00:01:10.367
of the New York Times, Washington Post,
00:01:10.587 --> 00:01:13.590
NPR, Reuters, and the Nineteenth News.
00:01:14.090 --> 00:01:16.391
Former President Barack Obama cited her
00:01:16.433 --> 00:01:18.554
work in his remarks on disinformation.
00:01:19.275 --> 00:01:21.358
Melissa was actually selected to join the
00:01:21.378 --> 00:01:23.719
twenty twenty three inaugural cohort of
00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:26.563
the Obama Foundation USA Leaders Program
00:01:27.164 --> 00:01:28.965
and still serves as a board chair of
00:01:29.066 --> 00:01:29.986
Netroots Nation.
00:01:30.487 --> 00:01:32.230
She has also been a featured speaker at
00:01:32.269 --> 00:01:33.992
Harvard Kennedy School of Government,
00:01:34.412 --> 00:01:36.855
the New York Daily News Innovation Lab and
00:01:36.894 --> 00:01:38.697
the Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum.
00:01:39.257 --> 00:01:40.037
Previously,
00:01:40.179 --> 00:01:42.319
Melissa served as digital strategist for
00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:44.480
progressive campaigns and causes,
00:01:44.980 --> 00:01:46.981
raising money, mobilizing activists,
00:01:47.042 --> 00:01:49.442
driving online conversation and shaping
00:01:49.462 --> 00:01:51.364
the media narrative.
00:01:51.784 --> 00:01:53.165
Before that, like me,
00:01:53.224 --> 00:01:55.126
she was a local journalist in Connecticut.
00:01:55.725 --> 00:01:57.106
As she'll demonstrate across our
00:01:57.147 --> 00:01:57.906
conversation,
00:01:57.947 --> 00:01:59.787
her extensive and varied background
00:01:59.828 --> 00:02:02.129
affords her unparalleled insights into the
00:02:02.170 --> 00:02:04.671
spread of fascism, media complicity,
00:02:05.070 --> 00:02:07.352
disinformation and online toxicity,
00:02:07.692 --> 00:02:09.334
far-right extremist networks,
00:02:09.433 --> 00:02:11.055
and how we organize online.
00:02:11.435 --> 00:02:12.596
That's what we'll discuss.
00:02:12.936 --> 00:02:15.176
Melissa, thanks for joining me.
00:02:15.236 --> 00:02:15.798
Thank you.
00:02:16.217 --> 00:02:18.438
That may be the best intro I've ever
00:02:18.498 --> 00:02:18.878
had.
00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:20.599
I'm going to try to live up to
00:02:20.659 --> 00:02:20.740
it,
00:02:20.820 --> 00:02:22.200
and I may be hiring you as my
00:02:22.260 --> 00:02:23.222
hype man from now on.
00:02:24.032 --> 00:02:25.153
That would be my honor.
00:02:25.193 --> 00:02:26.194
It's what I do best,
00:02:26.294 --> 00:02:27.115
believe it or not.
00:02:27.795 --> 00:02:28.316
Thank you.
00:02:28.455 --> 00:02:30.737
And every word is true and well-deserved.
00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:33.319
Before we get into your work and how
00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:35.621
we combat fascism online and off,
00:02:35.662 --> 00:02:37.883
let's go back to the beginning with your
00:02:37.923 --> 00:02:38.683
reflections.
00:02:38.843 --> 00:02:40.664
In the wake of the Zoran victory in
00:02:40.705 --> 00:02:41.205
New York,
00:02:41.265 --> 00:02:43.227
what are you seeing in today's successful
00:02:43.306 --> 00:02:45.568
organizing that further cements your
00:02:45.588 --> 00:02:47.810
longtime beliefs about what works and what
00:02:47.849 --> 00:02:48.211
doesn't?
00:02:48.691 --> 00:02:49.572
And what, if anything,
00:02:49.632 --> 00:02:51.193
is new in creating waves?
00:02:52.133 --> 00:02:52.453
Sure.
00:02:52.532 --> 00:02:52.713
Well,
00:02:52.954 --> 00:02:55.997
I'm excited about Mamdani in New York.
00:02:56.076 --> 00:02:57.679
I also want to give out a shout
00:02:57.739 --> 00:02:58.860
out to Katie Wilson,
00:02:59.340 --> 00:03:00.822
the new mayor here in Seattle.
00:03:02.323 --> 00:03:05.646
I think it's both a wave of this
00:03:05.687 --> 00:03:07.788
combination of fighting back against
00:03:07.829 --> 00:03:09.830
fascism and economic populism.
00:03:09.871 --> 00:03:10.872
I mean, I think the fact that
00:03:11.231 --> 00:03:14.734
affordability and universal childcare were
00:03:14.794 --> 00:03:16.254
part of both of their platforms.
00:03:18.355 --> 00:03:19.735
I think they do not just a great
00:03:19.776 --> 00:03:24.038
job of connecting affordability,
00:03:24.078 --> 00:03:26.620
but also connecting it to fascism and the
00:03:26.659 --> 00:03:28.240
current administration and the people in
00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:30.260
power are keeping you from having the life
00:03:30.300 --> 00:03:30.961
you want.
00:03:30.981 --> 00:03:32.423
We have this big debate right now.
00:03:32.802 --> 00:03:33.703
Is it affordability?
00:03:33.802 --> 00:03:34.683
Is it democracy?
00:03:34.804 --> 00:03:35.243
And I think
00:03:35.623 --> 00:03:38.468
what Mamdami in particular has been able
00:03:38.508 --> 00:03:40.110
to do is say it's both and it's
00:03:40.170 --> 00:03:42.294
actually these people keeping you from the
00:03:42.313 --> 00:03:44.217
basic goods and services that you should
00:03:44.257 --> 00:03:44.578
have.
00:03:45.179 --> 00:03:46.959
That's very smart.
00:03:46.979 --> 00:03:47.058
Yeah.
00:03:47.079 --> 00:03:50.639
The oligarchy is something people toss
00:03:50.699 --> 00:03:51.419
around a lot,
00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:53.240
but they maybe don't understand that
00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:56.540
connection between policy,
00:03:57.020 --> 00:03:59.782
economics at the micro and macro levels
00:03:59.822 --> 00:04:02.262
and how it affects us.
00:04:02.961 --> 00:04:04.842
Someone just came out with a new report
00:04:04.883 --> 00:04:08.842
that the poverty line is not thirty one
00:04:08.883 --> 00:04:09.323
thousand,
00:04:09.362 --> 00:04:10.984
but something like one hundred and thirty
00:04:11.024 --> 00:04:12.123
five thousand.
00:04:12.304 --> 00:04:12.544
Yeah.
00:04:13.519 --> 00:04:14.079
Yeah, I mean,
00:04:14.239 --> 00:04:16.800
I think this debate is maddening to me,
00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:18.482
and I'm not a both sides-ism person,
00:04:18.521 --> 00:04:20.583
but both sides of this debate drives me
00:04:20.622 --> 00:04:21.062
crazy,
00:04:21.142 --> 00:04:22.925
the affordability people and the democracy
00:04:22.964 --> 00:04:23.305
people.
00:04:23.425 --> 00:04:25.045
And it's like, your job,
00:04:25.466 --> 00:04:26.627
if you want to create change,
00:04:26.947 --> 00:04:28.728
is to show the threads and to show
00:04:28.788 --> 00:04:30.749
the through lines and to tell that story
00:04:30.788 --> 00:04:31.449
successfully.
00:04:31.589 --> 00:04:33.089
And the more we have this debate,
00:04:33.771 --> 00:04:35.812
just the more maddening it makes me.
00:04:36.752 --> 00:04:37.793
I think that's one of the reasons,
00:04:38.973 --> 00:04:39.874
if you read my newsletter,
00:04:39.894 --> 00:04:41.334
you've probably heard me talk about Tesla
00:04:41.375 --> 00:04:42.315
takedowns so much.
00:04:43.196 --> 00:04:44.415
And part of the reason is because I
00:04:44.435 --> 00:04:46.216
think that was such an effective economic
00:04:46.257 --> 00:04:47.836
campaign that tied to like,
00:04:48.216 --> 00:04:50.716
these are the people in power who are
00:04:50.757 --> 00:04:52.177
making your life worse.
00:04:52.697 --> 00:04:54.778
And here is how to make this man's
00:04:54.838 --> 00:04:55.497
life worse,
00:04:55.577 --> 00:04:57.059
like by hitting his pocketbook.
00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:58.738
And I don't think I've seen, well,
00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:01.158
maybe the target boycotts from black
00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:02.399
churches that we've seen this year.
00:05:02.420 --> 00:05:03.079
But I mean,
00:05:03.100 --> 00:05:04.339
just the through line of like,
00:05:04.379 --> 00:05:06.399
these are the people that are making your
00:05:06.420 --> 00:05:07.060
life worse.
00:05:07.701 --> 00:05:09.581
And here's how to hit them back.
00:05:10.716 --> 00:05:12.377
Yeah, that's a really good point.
00:05:12.517 --> 00:05:14.437
And you have a background, as I mentioned,
00:05:14.478 --> 00:05:16.598
in working on progressive campaigns.
00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:19.620
Before you see the results, of course,
00:05:19.660 --> 00:05:21.360
how do you distinguish between a
00:05:21.420 --> 00:05:23.841
politician or a cause that would truly
00:05:23.901 --> 00:05:26.242
chip away at our unjust system or one
00:05:26.281 --> 00:05:28.382
that merely wants to ride the democratic
00:05:28.423 --> 00:05:31.403
wave to personal success?
00:05:31.543 --> 00:05:31.884
Sure.
00:05:31.983 --> 00:05:34.625
I mean, I really don't love that binary.
00:05:34.865 --> 00:05:37.125
I think one of the biggest problems we
00:05:37.165 --> 00:05:38.786
have when we look at elections and
00:05:38.846 --> 00:05:39.586
candidates is
00:05:40.252 --> 00:05:42.213
is we sort of create this star system.
00:05:43.052 --> 00:05:45.413
We build up these idols and then we
00:05:45.454 --> 00:05:47.494
get upset when they can't possibly
00:05:47.533 --> 00:05:47.975
deliver.
00:05:49.014 --> 00:05:50.535
I think it's really important to think
00:05:50.574 --> 00:05:52.615
about what is the job that these folks
00:05:52.836 --> 00:05:54.257
are hired to do.
00:05:54.677 --> 00:05:56.557
They should be constantly trying to keep
00:05:56.596 --> 00:05:58.377
that job, not just get promoted.
00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:01.622
And I think it's also important to think
00:06:01.663 --> 00:06:03.766
about like nobody is irreplaceable.
00:06:04.607 --> 00:06:04.807
You know,
00:06:04.826 --> 00:06:06.209
there have been politicians that I've
00:06:06.250 --> 00:06:07.992
liked that I've been disappointed by.
00:06:09.454 --> 00:06:10.154
And, you know,
00:06:10.355 --> 00:06:12.559
I've really become very mercenary about
00:06:12.619 --> 00:06:12.718
it.
00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:14.581
Like if you're not delivering something,
00:06:14.862 --> 00:06:16.423
If you're not doing the right thing,
00:06:16.523 --> 00:06:17.204
you've got to go.
00:06:17.283 --> 00:06:20.185
And maybe you came in with good intentions
00:06:20.225 --> 00:06:21.485
and maybe for whatever reason.
00:06:22.447 --> 00:06:23.286
At the same time,
00:06:23.466 --> 00:06:25.648
I try to show some grace.
00:06:25.809 --> 00:06:26.389
I actually, you know,
00:06:26.449 --> 00:06:29.531
I worked for Democratic senators for many
00:06:29.591 --> 00:06:29.990
years,
00:06:30.050 --> 00:06:31.552
raising money and mobilizing for them.
00:06:32.072 --> 00:06:33.892
I would say some have disappointed me,
00:06:33.952 --> 00:06:34.653
some have not.
00:06:35.053 --> 00:06:36.995
But I think it's important to look at
00:06:37.035 --> 00:06:38.314
the context of the job.
00:06:39.295 --> 00:06:42.497
And they need to hear from us constantly.
00:06:43.117 --> 00:06:45.559
And a lot of times when I see
00:06:45.579 --> 00:06:47.939
that senators in particular seem out of
00:06:47.980 --> 00:06:48.600
touch, I'm like,
00:06:48.661 --> 00:06:50.100
I wonder what they're hearing from their
00:06:50.141 --> 00:06:50.942
constituents.
00:06:51.841 --> 00:06:54.182
And I wonder who's coming to their town
00:06:54.202 --> 00:06:55.403
halls when they have them.
00:06:55.803 --> 00:06:58.365
I wonder who's coming to their fundraisers
00:06:58.406 --> 00:06:59.065
to grump at them.
00:06:59.745 --> 00:07:01.427
um you know it's really on us as
00:07:01.507 --> 00:07:03.988
citizens to constantly demand from
00:07:04.048 --> 00:07:05.930
politicians we like and politicians we
00:07:05.970 --> 00:07:08.252
don't uh that they actually serve us and
00:07:08.271 --> 00:07:11.153
they do right by us i love that
00:07:11.173 --> 00:07:13.194
it's it's so important and something that
00:07:13.214 --> 00:07:15.677
a lot of people who may consider
00:07:15.697 --> 00:07:17.937
themselves on the left so to speak but
00:07:18.038 --> 00:07:20.680
i would classify if i had to as
00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.862
as more liberal or or neoliberal um
00:07:25.062 --> 00:07:27.944
are offended if you want to hold people
00:07:27.983 --> 00:07:29.584
you've elected accountable.
00:07:29.704 --> 00:07:32.286
And I think it's not out of some
00:07:32.326 --> 00:07:33.586
kind of malice.
00:07:33.625 --> 00:07:35.447
It's out of fear that if you point
00:07:35.526 --> 00:07:38.528
out any imperfections in a Democrat,
00:07:38.788 --> 00:07:41.468
then they'll be replaced by a Republican.
00:07:42.509 --> 00:07:44.170
I don't think that's necessarily true.
00:07:44.211 --> 00:07:45.812
And from from what you've said,
00:07:45.891 --> 00:07:48.735
I sense that you also have experienced
00:07:48.774 --> 00:07:48.995
this,
00:07:49.035 --> 00:07:50.675
that you can have multiple Democrats
00:07:50.755 --> 00:07:53.639
running and one can be far more to
00:07:53.718 --> 00:07:55.720
the people than another.
00:07:56.201 --> 00:07:58.822
So just to clarify for anyone wondering,
00:07:59.583 --> 00:08:01.064
are you blue no matter who?
00:08:01.584 --> 00:08:02.646
Do you know what that means?
00:08:02.685 --> 00:08:03.747
Have you heard it a lot?
00:08:03.927 --> 00:08:06.588
And assuming you do, why or why not?
00:08:07.228 --> 00:08:07.648
Sure.
00:08:08.528 --> 00:08:09.870
It's an interesting question.
00:08:10.050 --> 00:08:11.911
I don't know that I'm blue no matter
00:08:11.971 --> 00:08:12.312
who.
00:08:13.353 --> 00:08:16.355
I would say that most of the time
00:08:16.536 --> 00:08:18.016
I am going to vote for the Democrat.
00:08:18.997 --> 00:08:21.240
I am a big believer in primaries.
00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:23.281
I'm a big fan of primaries because I
00:08:23.302 --> 00:08:24.642
think that's how you get the best
00:08:24.723 --> 00:08:27.144
candidate for the best nominee for your
00:08:27.204 --> 00:08:28.826
party that's close to the constituents.
00:08:28.846 --> 00:08:29.526
So I would say
00:08:30.908 --> 00:08:31.889
Most of the time,
00:08:31.988 --> 00:08:35.630
if they have won the primary and shown
00:08:35.650 --> 00:08:36.951
that they have the support of most of
00:08:36.991 --> 00:08:37.753
the constituents,
00:08:37.793 --> 00:08:39.073
that's going to be my candidate.
00:08:39.913 --> 00:08:41.916
There are a couple of exceptions.
00:08:42.436 --> 00:08:46.519
I think if a hardline anti-choicer for me
00:08:47.220 --> 00:08:48.080
got the nomination,
00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:49.400
I would have a hard time voting for
00:08:49.441 --> 00:08:49.942
that person.
00:08:50.902 --> 00:08:51.503
Similarly,
00:08:51.562 --> 00:08:55.384
someone who was known to have consistently
00:08:55.445 --> 00:08:59.586
racist and misogynist and homophobic
00:08:59.606 --> 00:08:59.966
views.
00:09:00.147 --> 00:09:01.788
Sorry, it's nine in Seattle,
00:09:01.807 --> 00:09:03.609
so I'm still drinking my coffee.
00:09:03.649 --> 00:09:04.289
I do it all the time.
00:09:04.309 --> 00:09:05.750
You're good.
00:09:05.770 --> 00:09:07.291
Then it becomes hard for me to vote
00:09:07.331 --> 00:09:09.032
for that person as well.
00:09:09.052 --> 00:09:10.013
Right.
00:09:10.682 --> 00:09:10.883
Right.
00:09:10.942 --> 00:09:12.823
And then you, of course, have people who,
00:09:14.264 --> 00:09:14.504
you know,
00:09:14.605 --> 00:09:17.647
might really hit you where it matters.
00:09:17.687 --> 00:09:19.248
You feel everything that you're saying,
00:09:19.288 --> 00:09:21.109
but there might be some fear that their
00:09:21.168 --> 00:09:24.071
views would be considered by the majority
00:09:24.091 --> 00:09:26.131
of the populace as too radical.
00:09:26.152 --> 00:09:28.273
And then there's the fear that putting too
00:09:28.312 --> 00:09:29.394
much support in them,
00:09:29.453 --> 00:09:31.174
at least if there's not ranked choice
00:09:31.215 --> 00:09:31.674
voting,
00:09:32.135 --> 00:09:34.736
could lead to someone that you really
00:09:34.777 --> 00:09:37.519
don't want being elected.
00:09:37.538 --> 00:09:39.139
To me, go ahead.
00:09:39.866 --> 00:09:41.008
I mean, I think, too,
00:09:41.227 --> 00:09:43.890
one thing that as a Democrat,
00:09:43.931 --> 00:09:45.432
like not even speaking as a progressive,
00:09:45.472 --> 00:09:47.073
but I do think it's important to try
00:09:47.114 --> 00:09:48.735
to support the nominee of the party
00:09:48.916 --> 00:09:49.856
whenever possible.
00:09:50.096 --> 00:09:52.359
And what happens all the time,
00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:53.679
and we just saw it in New York
00:09:53.900 --> 00:09:55.241
and we just saw it in Seattle,
00:09:55.842 --> 00:09:58.304
is when the moderate or more corporatist
00:09:58.325 --> 00:09:59.966
candidate wins, then it's like, oh,
00:09:59.986 --> 00:10:00.967
we got to rally behind him.
00:10:00.988 --> 00:10:02.229
We got to do everything we can.
00:10:03.269 --> 00:10:04.990
And then when the progressive candidate
00:10:05.029 --> 00:10:05.750
wins, you know,
00:10:05.791 --> 00:10:07.672
people don't fall in line nearly as
00:10:07.731 --> 00:10:08.131
quickly.
00:10:08.993 --> 00:10:10.933
So I think it's important for us to
00:10:10.974 --> 00:10:13.735
demand that when the progressive candidate
00:10:13.754 --> 00:10:15.576
wins and create that expectation.
00:10:15.615 --> 00:10:16.517
And that means, you know,
00:10:16.576 --> 00:10:19.639
sometimes we have to, you know, eat shit.
00:10:20.078 --> 00:10:22.740
Excuse me for cursing and support the
00:10:22.779 --> 00:10:24.240
corporate is just in the case of like
00:10:24.301 --> 00:10:25.542
not getting a Republican in there.
00:10:26.313 --> 00:10:28.554
yeah yeah i get that and i and
00:10:28.634 --> 00:10:31.355
i do see among politicians and everyday
00:10:31.375 --> 00:10:34.535
people that you know they're more you know
00:10:34.716 --> 00:10:39.096
centrist than than leftist as long as
00:10:39.116 --> 00:10:40.636
they're not on the right i see them
00:10:40.697 --> 00:10:42.977
as well-intentioned and and possibly just
00:10:43.038 --> 00:10:46.739
misinformed or a little afraid of what um
00:10:46.899 --> 00:10:49.418
taking a risk might mean um to me
00:10:49.458 --> 00:10:51.840
the real difference between the left and
00:10:51.860 --> 00:10:52.299
the right
00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:56.503
no matter how extreme one's views are,
00:10:58.063 --> 00:11:00.086
is what drives us.
00:11:01.547 --> 00:11:03.908
For me, it's love, love for human beings,
00:11:03.948 --> 00:11:05.669
love for animals, love for the earth,
00:11:06.149 --> 00:11:08.412
and hate for injustice and inequality.
00:11:09.832 --> 00:11:12.755
I see the right as kind of being
00:11:12.796 --> 00:11:14.517
directed by the opposite.
00:11:15.658 --> 00:11:16.518
But on the other hand,
00:11:16.538 --> 00:11:19.120
there are people who work for Democrats
00:11:19.179 --> 00:11:21.182
who are more in the mainstream
00:11:22.643 --> 00:11:26.128
you know election industry if that's a
00:11:26.187 --> 00:11:29.892
thing um who consider all extremists the
00:11:29.932 --> 00:11:32.596
same left or right i'm curious what your
00:11:32.615 --> 00:11:35.860
take is on that um extremism in general
00:11:35.940 --> 00:11:37.741
and is there a difference between someone
00:11:37.802 --> 00:11:39.764
on the far left and someone on the
00:11:39.804 --> 00:11:40.346
far right
00:11:41.634 --> 00:11:42.293
Absolutely.
00:11:42.514 --> 00:11:44.875
There is a huge asymmetry.
00:11:45.894 --> 00:11:47.836
And the minute you start talking about
00:11:47.895 --> 00:11:48.735
both sides,
00:11:48.916 --> 00:11:51.297
you lose me completely because you clearly
00:11:51.317 --> 00:11:53.076
do not understand the situation.
00:11:54.037 --> 00:11:56.077
Not just that the right has more extreme
00:11:56.118 --> 00:11:57.717
views, but, you know,
00:11:57.817 --> 00:12:00.058
the extreme right who have, you know,
00:12:00.458 --> 00:12:01.620
spent the last ten,
00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:04.140
fifteen years completely taking over the
00:12:04.181 --> 00:12:05.081
Republican Party.
00:12:05.861 --> 00:12:07.381
They also have been working on
00:12:07.442 --> 00:12:08.562
concentrating power.
00:12:08.923 --> 00:12:10.484
There's a lot of money behind them.
00:12:11.303 --> 00:12:13.284
So obviously their views are not
00:12:13.644 --> 00:12:14.306
symmetrical,
00:12:14.426 --> 00:12:16.506
but the amount of resources behind them
00:12:16.586 --> 00:12:18.567
and the amount of power that they hold
00:12:18.927 --> 00:12:20.928
within the political establishment of
00:12:20.969 --> 00:12:23.409
their party is absolutely not.
00:12:23.590 --> 00:12:24.470
It's asymmetrical.
00:12:24.570 --> 00:12:25.691
There's just no comparison.
00:12:29.630 --> 00:12:30.851
Okay, that's good to know.
00:12:31.972 --> 00:12:33.094
Now, what about the media?
00:12:33.693 --> 00:12:35.695
As someone who is a journalist,
00:12:35.774 --> 00:12:37.096
as someone who has worked for the
00:12:37.115 --> 00:12:39.717
Associated Press, I will admit,
00:12:40.198 --> 00:12:41.460
even though AP,
00:12:41.580 --> 00:12:43.280
Reuters maybe strives for it,
00:12:43.380 --> 00:12:45.282
I don't even believe in objectivity.
00:12:46.043 --> 00:12:47.524
But there is a difference between
00:12:47.583 --> 00:12:49.424
editorializing and lying,
00:12:49.826 --> 00:12:51.486
sharing your opinion and spreading
00:12:51.527 --> 00:12:52.548
disinformation.
00:12:53.008 --> 00:12:55.309
Who is responsible for what we see and
00:12:55.370 --> 00:12:55.549
hear?
00:12:56.738 --> 00:12:56.918
Yeah,
00:12:57.018 --> 00:12:59.160
I think the media stuff is particularly
00:12:59.201 --> 00:13:01.082
interesting because when you think about
00:13:01.243 --> 00:13:03.905
the concentration of power that's
00:13:03.926 --> 00:13:04.426
happening,
00:13:04.546 --> 00:13:05.967
not just with the election of President
00:13:06.008 --> 00:13:06.288
Trump,
00:13:06.707 --> 00:13:08.429
it's not enough for the folks who are
00:13:08.470 --> 00:13:11.352
in power to have economic control over our
00:13:11.413 --> 00:13:11.813
lives.
00:13:12.221 --> 00:13:14.404
they now want more control over what we
00:13:14.465 --> 00:13:16.206
read and see and hear.
00:13:16.267 --> 00:13:17.967
So you're seeing that with outlets like
00:13:18.009 --> 00:13:19.769
Bezos buying the Washington Post and
00:13:19.811 --> 00:13:22.033
obviously clearly taking a firmer
00:13:22.113 --> 00:13:23.875
editorial hand than he had initially.
00:13:24.956 --> 00:13:25.976
The New York Times, I mean,
00:13:26.017 --> 00:13:26.817
some of their coverage,
00:13:26.857 --> 00:13:28.399
the way they have covered power and
00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:29.061
concentration
00:13:29.640 --> 00:13:31.361
and politics is abysmal.
00:13:32.202 --> 00:13:34.624
You see Mark Zuckerberg doing a complete
00:13:34.703 --> 00:13:38.527
one eighty on what kind of hate and
00:13:38.567 --> 00:13:40.488
harm policies Facebook is going to have.
00:13:40.668 --> 00:13:41.607
Elon Musk, of course,
00:13:41.648 --> 00:13:44.269
bought a social media platform outright.
00:13:44.669 --> 00:13:45.910
So I think it's really important to
00:13:45.990 --> 00:13:46.390
understand.
00:13:46.410 --> 00:13:48.312
I'm less concerned about left right bias
00:13:48.332 --> 00:13:48.932
because, like you said,
00:13:48.952 --> 00:13:50.514
we all come in with our own biases.
00:13:51.014 --> 00:13:53.294
and more about who owns this platform,
00:13:53.696 --> 00:13:56.216
who decides who's getting hired and who
00:13:56.277 --> 00:13:58.018
decides what's getting published and
00:13:58.038 --> 00:13:58.837
what's getting killed.
00:13:58.857 --> 00:14:01.440
And I think that's really a more effective
00:14:01.460 --> 00:14:03.081
way to look at our media diet at
00:14:03.100 --> 00:14:04.701
this point, which makes it hard, right?
00:14:04.741 --> 00:14:07.403
When I first started writing my newsletter
00:14:07.523 --> 00:14:09.244
in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,
00:14:09.583 --> 00:14:11.065
there were so many news sources.
00:14:11.105 --> 00:14:13.306
There were so many reporters covering this
00:14:13.407 --> 00:14:14.826
emerging dystopia beat.
00:14:15.687 --> 00:14:16.827
There were times that it could have been
00:14:16.948 --> 00:14:19.190
all BuzzFeed news or all articles from
00:14:19.230 --> 00:14:19.570
Vice.
00:14:19.909 --> 00:14:21.711
BuzzFeed News is obviously gone.
00:14:21.772 --> 00:14:23.274
Vice is a shell of itself.
00:14:24.115 --> 00:14:26.517
It becomes harder as someone who covers
00:14:26.557 --> 00:14:28.719
this just because there's so much less
00:14:28.798 --> 00:14:30.600
journalism about it than there was ten
00:14:30.640 --> 00:14:31.902
years ago.
00:14:31.942 --> 00:14:32.202
Yeah.
00:14:34.255 --> 00:14:35.517
That's a really great point.
00:14:35.596 --> 00:14:38.681
It's becoming harder to be a journalist in
00:14:38.740 --> 00:14:40.903
every possible way, to keep a job.
00:14:41.224 --> 00:14:43.567
We just saw Teen Vogue collapse too.
00:14:45.448 --> 00:14:47.171
And then of course the dangers of being
00:14:47.331 --> 00:14:49.192
a journalist, literally speaking,
00:14:49.254 --> 00:14:51.096
the amount of journalists who are killed
00:14:51.176 --> 00:14:52.336
or injured on the job.
00:14:53.558 --> 00:14:55.559
increases exponentially, it seems,
00:14:55.660 --> 00:14:56.380
every year.
00:14:57.601 --> 00:14:59.965
How does net neutrality play into this?
00:15:00.164 --> 00:15:02.687
Without it, who will control the internet?
00:15:03.347 --> 00:15:04.249
As you pointed out,
00:15:04.369 --> 00:15:07.532
as it filters into fewer and fewer
00:15:07.591 --> 00:15:08.172
companies,
00:15:08.371 --> 00:15:10.774
what about people like us who may have
00:15:10.835 --> 00:15:13.317
our own newsletter or our own podcast?
00:15:13.717 --> 00:15:15.239
What's the future going to look like?
00:15:16.225 --> 00:15:16.645
Yeah, I mean,
00:15:16.745 --> 00:15:19.427
I think net neutrality is part of a
00:15:19.528 --> 00:15:20.947
much bigger shit.
00:15:20.967 --> 00:15:22.469
It almost feels quaint to talk about
00:15:22.548 --> 00:15:24.809
considering the way that concentration of
00:15:25.009 --> 00:15:27.631
power has happened over the past couple of
00:15:27.672 --> 00:15:28.032
years.
00:15:28.131 --> 00:15:28.312
I mean,
00:15:28.331 --> 00:15:30.832
it's interesting because on the one hand,
00:15:30.952 --> 00:15:33.514
you see so many laid off journalists or
00:15:33.575 --> 00:15:35.696
journalists who've moved on to sub stacks.
00:15:36.821 --> 00:15:38.062
or to podcasts,
00:15:38.542 --> 00:15:39.802
and some are doing really well.
00:15:40.844 --> 00:15:42.125
But there's a limit to that, right?
00:15:42.164 --> 00:15:43.647
I mean, you mentioned in the beginning,
00:15:43.687 --> 00:15:45.488
I got into this through local political
00:15:45.508 --> 00:15:45.908
blogging,
00:15:46.269 --> 00:15:47.769
and there is a limit to what you
00:15:47.789 --> 00:15:49.371
can do as an individual.
00:15:50.392 --> 00:15:53.434
It is harder for groups to come together
00:15:53.534 --> 00:15:56.116
and form new publications and find funding
00:15:56.158 --> 00:15:56.557
for that.
00:15:57.738 --> 00:15:59.859
And it's harder to, you know,
00:15:59.918 --> 00:16:01.639
start something like a podcast because
00:16:01.700 --> 00:16:03.200
where are you going to find the capital?
00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:04.000
And then there's just,
00:16:04.100 --> 00:16:05.640
I think there's a limit to the audience
00:16:05.681 --> 00:16:06.902
an individual can have,
00:16:07.261 --> 00:16:08.701
particularly as more folks are
00:16:08.741 --> 00:16:09.403
individuals.
00:16:09.482 --> 00:16:11.043
And I think about, you know,
00:16:11.504 --> 00:16:13.484
there are five or six journalists at
00:16:13.524 --> 00:16:16.745
BuzzFeed News that I used to read their
00:16:16.764 --> 00:16:17.586
work religiously.
00:16:17.666 --> 00:16:19.225
If they all had sub stacks and I'm
00:16:19.245 --> 00:16:20.706
paying all eighty dollars a year,
00:16:20.746 --> 00:16:22.307
that adds up really quickly.
00:16:22.628 --> 00:16:24.567
So there's also just a limit to scale
00:16:24.628 --> 00:16:25.889
of what the consumer can afford.
00:16:26.912 --> 00:16:27.091
Yep.
00:16:27.392 --> 00:16:28.774
I was waiting for that part.
00:16:28.953 --> 00:16:30.075
And for what it's worth,
00:16:30.134 --> 00:16:31.735
my podcast costs nothing.
00:16:31.855 --> 00:16:33.397
It's the only reason I can do it.
00:16:35.259 --> 00:16:37.080
What can the average person then do to
00:16:37.160 --> 00:16:40.342
ensure they're getting whatever's closest
00:16:40.383 --> 00:16:41.203
to the truth?
00:16:41.864 --> 00:16:44.807
And what can we do to fight back
00:16:44.846 --> 00:16:46.628
to help protect ourselves and our
00:16:46.668 --> 00:16:47.149
neighbors?
00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:48.720
Yeah, I mean,
00:16:48.820 --> 00:16:50.301
I think part of it is just being
00:16:50.341 --> 00:16:51.480
a skeptical consumer,
00:16:52.640 --> 00:16:55.142
particularly when you're seeing news on
00:16:55.241 --> 00:16:57.722
social media.
00:16:58.023 --> 00:16:59.423
Social media in particular,
00:16:59.462 --> 00:17:01.543
the headlines and the images and such,
00:17:01.604 --> 00:17:03.803
they are designed to give you an emotional
00:17:03.864 --> 00:17:04.324
reaction.
00:17:04.824 --> 00:17:06.744
As former digital strategist,
00:17:06.805 --> 00:17:08.125
I used to be on the other side
00:17:08.144 --> 00:17:08.704
of this, right?
00:17:09.645 --> 00:17:11.266
So if something gives you an emotional
00:17:11.306 --> 00:17:12.145
reaction, well,
00:17:12.385 --> 00:17:14.487
why do they want me having that reaction?
00:17:14.926 --> 00:17:16.188
What's the story behind it?
00:17:16.307 --> 00:17:18.911
Is there a less inflammatory source I can
00:17:18.951 --> 00:17:19.351
find?
00:17:20.372 --> 00:17:21.413
So often I'm just like,
00:17:21.512 --> 00:17:23.134
just Google it and see if there are
00:17:23.174 --> 00:17:24.736
other stories about it that come from an
00:17:24.855 --> 00:17:26.798
outlet you've you've heard of and not even
00:17:26.837 --> 00:17:28.019
like a neutral outlet.
00:17:28.058 --> 00:17:28.298
Right.
00:17:28.358 --> 00:17:30.340
And if it's Daily Kos or if it's
00:17:30.361 --> 00:17:30.942
the bulwark,
00:17:31.382 --> 00:17:34.084
it's probably that means the story is
00:17:34.144 --> 00:17:34.424
real.
00:17:34.464 --> 00:17:36.787
So just doing some basic due diligence and
00:17:36.826 --> 00:17:38.268
having some skepticism, I think,
00:17:38.307 --> 00:17:38.989
is a big start.
00:17:40.042 --> 00:17:40.943
Great advice.
00:17:41.124 --> 00:17:42.705
And on that note,
00:17:43.227 --> 00:17:45.849
how to online toxicity and hate filter
00:17:45.890 --> 00:17:46.911
into real life.
00:17:46.971 --> 00:17:50.454
What are we seeing beyond ice and beyond
00:17:51.016 --> 00:17:54.000
people pretending to be ice and empowering
00:17:54.019 --> 00:17:56.522
themselves that way beyond just running
00:17:56.623 --> 00:17:58.684
over Heather hires with pickup trucks?
00:17:59.286 --> 00:18:01.529
How are the far right groups leveraging
00:18:02.030 --> 00:18:04.816
the disinformation in the media and their
00:18:04.935 --> 00:18:07.621
online networks through Telegram and other
00:18:07.681 --> 00:18:09.884
avenues to manipulate and grow on the
00:18:09.924 --> 00:18:10.306
ground?
00:18:11.218 --> 00:18:11.597
Sure.
00:18:11.617 --> 00:18:13.500
You know, as Americans,
00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:16.442
we live under the constant threat of
00:18:16.541 --> 00:18:17.702
political violence.
00:18:18.804 --> 00:18:21.787
That is no matter who you are,
00:18:21.846 --> 00:18:23.587
no matter what you believe,
00:18:24.189 --> 00:18:27.230
if you fall out of favor, which,
00:18:27.310 --> 00:18:27.551
you know,
00:18:27.571 --> 00:18:29.272
Marjorie Taylor Greene just discovered.
00:18:31.013 --> 00:18:31.474
Side note,
00:18:31.595 --> 00:18:34.457
I find it just darkly hilarious that for
00:18:34.517 --> 00:18:36.618
years she deals with left wing harassment
00:18:36.679 --> 00:18:39.661
and then two days of harassment from
00:18:39.721 --> 00:18:40.142
Trump's
00:18:40.662 --> 00:18:41.143
supporters.
00:18:41.182 --> 00:18:41.923
And she's like, that's it.
00:18:41.962 --> 00:18:42.282
I'm done.
00:18:42.303 --> 00:18:42.604
I'm out.
00:18:42.663 --> 00:18:42.903
Bye.
00:18:43.844 --> 00:18:46.086
But I think that says something both about
00:18:46.145 --> 00:18:46.846
the asymmetry,
00:18:46.885 --> 00:18:49.268
but also just about the threat and that
00:18:49.307 --> 00:18:50.288
we're all vulnerable.
00:18:50.429 --> 00:18:51.269
And that really,
00:18:52.309 --> 00:18:53.931
that starts to mess with your head.
00:18:54.010 --> 00:18:55.652
And I don't think we talk about that
00:18:55.751 --> 00:18:57.894
enough as a country and as a culture,
00:18:58.493 --> 00:19:00.736
how much we've normalized school
00:19:00.796 --> 00:19:01.516
shootings,
00:19:01.615 --> 00:19:04.698
how much we've normalized politicians
00:19:04.758 --> 00:19:07.099
making violent threats on a daily basis,
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.061
how much we've normalized anonymous
00:19:10.481 --> 00:19:12.263
hate speech and harmful speech that
00:19:12.284 --> 00:19:13.644
becomes political violence.
00:19:14.404 --> 00:19:14.685
And, you know,
00:19:14.726 --> 00:19:16.487
the goal of that is to drive us
00:19:16.547 --> 00:19:17.307
into silence.
00:19:17.347 --> 00:19:18.407
The goal of that is not just to
00:19:18.449 --> 00:19:19.710
drive us offline,
00:19:20.049 --> 00:19:22.372
but to drive us out of political and
00:19:22.531 --> 00:19:23.352
civic life.
00:19:24.313 --> 00:19:25.854
And so I just I always want to
00:19:25.933 --> 00:19:28.135
acknowledge that because it's just we
00:19:28.175 --> 00:19:30.317
don't talk about that as enough as just
00:19:30.397 --> 00:19:31.818
in our discourse and also, I think,
00:19:31.858 --> 00:19:33.160
as activists and those of us who are
00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:34.040
trying to make change.
00:19:34.401 --> 00:19:35.662
And part of it is because sometimes if
00:19:35.682 --> 00:19:36.803
you think about it too much, you're like,
00:19:36.884 --> 00:19:38.265
oh, man, I just need a break.
00:19:38.365 --> 00:19:40.207
I just need to watch Netflix for a
00:19:40.227 --> 00:19:40.527
while.
00:19:40.886 --> 00:19:42.048
But it's really important, I think,
00:19:42.067 --> 00:19:44.289
to understand the impact that has on us
00:19:44.730 --> 00:19:45.811
and on our politics.
00:19:45.932 --> 00:19:48.854
It's also why it's so important to find
00:19:48.894 --> 00:19:51.096
ways to speak out and to be brave,
00:19:51.136 --> 00:19:53.218
because people who see the constant
00:19:53.358 --> 00:19:53.898
onslaught,
00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:56.101
they also see the numbers at the No
00:19:56.121 --> 00:19:57.021
Kings protests.
00:19:57.362 --> 00:19:59.544
They see the news coverage that Tesla
00:19:59.564 --> 00:20:00.463
takedown gets.
00:20:00.784 --> 00:20:04.186
They see when Mamdami and Katie Wilson win
00:20:04.326 --> 00:20:05.126
elections.
00:20:06.127 --> 00:20:07.568
So, you know, they see that, too,
00:20:07.588 --> 00:20:08.990
which is why I think it's so important
00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:10.790
if you when you can and as you
00:20:10.810 --> 00:20:13.292
are able to find ways to show up
00:20:13.413 --> 00:20:14.834
and show your bravery as well.
00:20:16.452 --> 00:20:17.252
That's excellent.
00:20:18.233 --> 00:20:19.213
Is there anything,
00:20:19.354 --> 00:20:21.953
although we're seeing some progress and we
00:20:21.993 --> 00:20:23.654
have moments of excitement,
00:20:24.734 --> 00:20:28.115
such as the recent electoral victories,
00:20:28.395 --> 00:20:31.336
but it feels, I hate to say it,
00:20:31.596 --> 00:20:32.396
but I'm scared.
00:20:32.436 --> 00:20:35.917
It feels like what's happening from the
00:20:35.978 --> 00:20:38.057
right, Project Twenty Twenty Five,
00:20:38.117 --> 00:20:40.739
Trump and Trump and team, it's working.
00:20:42.159 --> 00:20:44.119
And it's working at the ground level, too,
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:47.942
with these far right groups gaining power
00:20:47.981 --> 00:20:52.584
and gaining access to inside areas of the
00:20:52.624 --> 00:20:53.184
government.
00:20:54.585 --> 00:20:58.007
What can we close on here for Democrats,
00:20:58.866 --> 00:20:59.167
for
00:21:00.355 --> 00:21:03.318
humanists, for leaders on the left,
00:21:04.381 --> 00:21:06.282
is there anything we can learn from those
00:21:06.363 --> 00:21:08.404
on the right and apply it on the
00:21:08.444 --> 00:21:10.867
left to be more successful going forward
00:21:10.907 --> 00:21:13.089
to prevent future Trumps?
00:21:13.911 --> 00:21:14.131
I mean,
00:21:14.192 --> 00:21:15.452
I think the most important thing to
00:21:15.512 --> 00:21:18.296
understand is that we really can't go
00:21:18.355 --> 00:21:18.757
back.
00:21:19.217 --> 00:21:20.719
We can only move forward.
00:21:21.550 --> 00:21:23.592
And that gives us an incredible
00:21:23.692 --> 00:21:27.013
opportunity to reimagine what we want our
00:21:27.054 --> 00:21:29.095
country to be and how we want to
00:21:29.134 --> 00:21:29.935
be governed.
00:21:31.156 --> 00:21:33.758
I think if we can learn anything from
00:21:33.798 --> 00:21:35.999
the right, it's when they get power,
00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:38.500
they do everything they can.
00:21:39.361 --> 00:21:40.862
They know it's for a limited time.
00:21:40.882 --> 00:21:42.542
They try to hold on to that power,
00:21:42.643 --> 00:21:44.644
but they also act like tomorrow it could
00:21:44.663 --> 00:21:45.505
be all taken away.
00:21:46.664 --> 00:21:48.445
We don't do that really well on the
00:21:48.506 --> 00:21:48.865
left.
00:21:49.726 --> 00:21:51.267
So that's definitely something we can
00:21:51.307 --> 00:21:51.567
take.
00:21:51.586 --> 00:21:54.547
You know, should when we get power again,
00:21:54.626 --> 00:21:55.907
when we are able,
00:21:55.968 --> 00:21:58.308
hopefully at the next midterm elections or
00:21:58.328 --> 00:21:59.028
whatever places,
00:21:59.308 --> 00:22:01.108
we have to start leveraging that power as
00:22:01.128 --> 00:22:01.930
soon as we have it.
00:22:02.829 --> 00:22:04.509
I think we need we're seeing this with
00:22:04.549 --> 00:22:06.171
the blue states where we're starting to
00:22:06.211 --> 00:22:06.750
see more.
00:22:07.310 --> 00:22:08.192
fighting back,
00:22:09.393 --> 00:22:11.115
doing their own countermeasures and
00:22:11.134 --> 00:22:11.935
cooperation.
00:22:12.155 --> 00:22:14.878
I hope we see more of that next
00:22:14.919 --> 00:22:15.259
year.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.241
I hope that encourages states that are
00:22:17.301 --> 00:22:21.025
more purple to join and think about ways
00:22:21.065 --> 00:22:23.107
to leverage their power or at least the
00:22:23.167 --> 00:22:24.788
levers of power they have available.
00:22:25.589 --> 00:22:27.412
We also just have to make sure that
00:22:27.491 --> 00:22:29.134
the next election is free and fair.
00:22:29.394 --> 00:22:31.815
uh one advantage of america is that our
00:22:31.855 --> 00:22:34.557
elections are locally run um so i have
00:22:34.596 --> 00:22:36.157
no doubt that the trump administration is
00:22:36.178 --> 00:22:37.878
going to do everything they can to ensure
00:22:37.898 --> 00:22:39.779
that it's not free and fair uh but
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:40.980
it doesn't mean that it's going to be
00:22:41.080 --> 00:22:43.142
easy for them to do so um so
00:22:43.202 --> 00:22:44.462
i think that's also an important you know
00:22:44.482 --> 00:22:46.304
just understand what their goal and their
00:22:46.344 --> 00:22:49.046
agenda is uh and make sure we're ready
00:22:49.086 --> 00:22:50.767
to counter it wherever we can that we
00:22:50.807 --> 00:22:52.448
are using every lever of power that we
00:22:52.488 --> 00:22:53.429
have available to us
00:22:54.394 --> 00:22:54.933
Perfect.
00:22:55.074 --> 00:22:55.855
Thank you, Melissa.
00:22:55.994 --> 00:22:57.615
Um, I was,
00:22:57.755 --> 00:22:59.496
I was worried that I was going to
00:22:59.516 --> 00:23:02.457
leave this being even more scared, but I,
00:23:02.477 --> 00:23:03.938
but I haven't, and I'm not, um,
00:23:03.998 --> 00:23:06.219
people say that to me all the time.
00:23:06.278 --> 00:23:06.578
Yeah.
00:23:07.058 --> 00:23:08.339
I mean, this was empowering.
00:23:08.900 --> 00:23:10.579
I think that people can get quite a
00:23:10.641 --> 00:23:13.602
bit out of this conversation, um,
00:23:13.942 --> 00:23:16.323
as well as going to your website to
00:23:16.363 --> 00:23:17.063
hire you.
00:23:17.123 --> 00:23:18.824
That's melissaryan.net.
00:23:19.423 --> 00:23:20.364
Um, of course,
00:23:20.523 --> 00:23:22.585
everyone needs to check out control, alt,
00:23:22.644 --> 00:23:23.486
right, delete.
00:23:23.526 --> 00:23:24.246
Um,
00:23:24.546 --> 00:23:28.428
It's an incredible frequent dose of
00:23:28.488 --> 00:23:30.148
everything you need, you know,
00:23:30.209 --> 00:23:31.950
kind of tied to what we've been talking
00:23:31.990 --> 00:23:32.289
about.
00:23:33.049 --> 00:23:33.490
So, Melissa,
00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:35.131
thank you again for coming on.
00:23:35.810 --> 00:23:36.251
Listeners,
00:23:36.291 --> 00:23:38.093
if you've enjoyed this edition of Global
00:23:38.173 --> 00:23:39.593
Warming, be sure to like,
00:23:39.633 --> 00:23:40.794
comment and share.
00:23:41.253 --> 00:23:43.234
Check out the first five episodes,
00:23:43.414 --> 00:23:45.715
subscribe and become an official member.
00:23:46.296 --> 00:23:48.498
It's been an absolute pleasure, Melissa.
00:23:48.837 --> 00:23:51.138
I hope you stay in touch and I
00:23:51.179 --> 00:23:53.539
hope you continue this incredible work.
00:23:54.144 --> 00:23:55.384
Thank you so much for having me.
00:23:56.025 --> 00:23:56.704
My pleasure.
00:23:57.586 --> 00:24:00.086
This episode has been sponsored by Zivo
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exclusive discounts using code WARNING.
00:24:08.751 --> 00:24:10.353
Link in the video description.
00:24:10.854 --> 00:24:11.334
Thank you.
00:24:11.394 --> 00:24:12.575
Happy Thanksgiving,
00:24:12.815 --> 00:24:14.756
even though that's a ridiculous holiday,
00:24:14.796 --> 00:24:15.675
as you all know.
00:24:16.297 --> 00:24:19.157
And we'll see you next week for episode
00:24:19.459 --> 00:24:19.858
seven.
00:24:22.941 --> 00:24:25.721
War is immoral, poverty is immoral,
00:24:26.001 --> 00:24:27.303
racism is immoral,
00:24:27.542 --> 00:24:29.263
police brutality is immoral,
00:24:29.483 --> 00:24:30.605
oppression is immoral,
00:24:30.845 --> 00:24:32.025
genocide is immoral,
00:24:32.244 --> 00:24:33.546
imperialism is immoral.
00:24:33.865 --> 00:24:36.086
This country represents all those things.
