Caring Takes Real Courage — feat. Marcel Schwantes (EP. 65)

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Marcel Schwantis, good morning.
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Good morning, Mark.
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How are you today?
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Fantastic.
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It's a beautiful late summer day here, but you know, the heat's coming out east, and I'm in the southeast part of the country, and we're gonna hit 90s again.
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So yeah.
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Yeah, I'm sitting at 67 right now, so I'm I'm I'm enjoying that.
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Hey, listen, I I just want to say thank you for having me on your podcast.
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Um, I thought that was uh, you know, just I I I loved your questions.
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I loved sort of talking about the you know various things that you were interested in.
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And um and uh for those of you who watch Founders Frameworks, you should go check out Marcel's uh podcast.
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You might even find our discussion pretty interesting.
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We're gonna try to avoid the stuff that we talked on about on that one.
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But um, but just I want to say thank you and uh we'll we'll we'll we'll send people over there once we're done here.
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But um but you know, one of the things that uh I'd love to know more about you now that I've experienced your podcast and and and and your read a bunch of stuff and listened to a number of your podcasts.
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What's you know, you asked me what's what's my story.
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I guess I'd ask you sort of what's what's what's the origin story behind you and the podcast and the work you do.
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Yeah, I would say I'm gonna frame this uh with a kind of a before and after.
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I'm my own case study of living and surviving a toxic work culture.
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And uh so the short version of that is we're going back to 2005-ish.
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Being in this environment that was a pressure cooker, um, management style was top-down, command and control, do as I say, you know, every day is like walking on eggshells.
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I don't know, figure of speech there, meaning that, you know, you gotta like, do I go left or do I go right?
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Because I got a manager that is sort of calling all the shots, so I don't I don't have the freedom uh to make the choices that I want, to own my work, because if I do, if I make a choice on my own, am I gonna be reprimanded for it, for it, right?
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So that that was the environment.
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And of course, you know, the research is clear.
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If you are in that kind of environment day to day, stress builds up, anxiety builds up, and all kinds of health issues will eventually occur.
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And the data, the data proves that this, and you it leads to all kinds of health issues.
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And for me, the health issue was that um I collapsed uh on my bathroom floor one morning, you know, getting ready for work, and I was paralyzed from the waist down.
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Wow.
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So that was a you know, a nice two-month disability.
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Uh, you know, could not work, could not move.
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And finally I was able to regain movement on my back.
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Uh, but then you have the emotional toll as well, right?
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So that's the physical toll, the emotional toll.
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Yeah, I also had to recover from that.
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So the whole recovery process probably took me six months.
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This sent me back.
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Anyway, so I left that place.
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Yeah.
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How many employees were in that place?
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Um, probably about 1,400.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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And what was your position there?
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I was uh I was an HR guy.
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Yeah um moving up the ranks.
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Yeah.
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And um, you know, working working in HR and uh reporting to the HR director at the time.
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It was I was young in my career, move, you know, moving up.
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Yeah.
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Um, and so after I left that role, I landed in an another uh company that had a very, very opposite, completely opposite style of of managing.
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And I'm not even gonna call it managing.
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Uh the the person that I reported to, who was a executive level person, was a servant leader.
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And I didn't have the label at the time.
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So I, you know, but I put two and two together, and as I started to figure out, you know, what what is it that makes this this boss who is a high level um so effective because I was more engaged in my young career than at any point in uh you know throughout my corporate life, you know, I did the corporate grind for 20, 25 years.
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And and he was the best boss I ever had.
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And uh, and his sort of leadership style was all about putting the people first, right?
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Growing, developing them, and he had uh impeccable listening skills.
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He was always available, open door, mentoring.
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You know, he'd sit down and mentor me for an hour.
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Uh, and then he would stretch me and and you know, put me in the assignments that uh initially I thought, man, this is way over my head.
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But then you say, no, I believe in you.
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And I will hold you by the hand those first couple of days, and then I'm gonna set you free.
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And man, that did something magical to my development when a superior can actually say that to you because he believes in you, in your, and your uh, not only your your competence, right?
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Because I mean, I I knew that I could do the job, but there was there, I've never been exposed to this element of the job.
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Uh and uh and so he walked me through it.
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And anyway, so that's what that's what a servant leader does.
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And and so this is so to answer your question, you know, coming full circle, as I ventured into my own practice as a as a leadership coach, consulting and and writing, etc., right, um, I realized that there is way too much suffering in the workplace.
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And we need to flip the script on what an effective leader does and who an effective leader is, right?
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And um, and so that began my work to sort of help leaders understand the people's side of the business that when they focus on helping people to flourish, the business is going to flourish.
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It's a simple equation.
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And but that takes a kind of mindset, a kind of leadership style that is that has a caring nature, right?
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So um, and so I began coaching those that the sort of prescribed this model of of the of leading, right, through more of a human-centered approach.
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And then that led to the podcast, uh, because you know, if you're a human-centered leader or working in a human-centered workplace, there is love and care in such a place, right?
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And it's it's palpable.
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You can you can feel it.
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Um people just they act differently.
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Um the the environment is is one of respect and uh where people's dignity is is you know looked at, and uh there's kindness in the workplace, you know, uh there's empathy flowing through decision making and listening to various perspectives, right?
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So um, and so I decided I'm gonna start a podcast to kind of spotlight these workplaces and these leaders, and I'm not gonna shy away from the word love.
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And and so I called it Love in Action.
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That was the original name of the podcast.
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It has since changed names, but uh, and so I started to bring in world-renowned thought leaders, authors, leadership experts that aligned with this understanding that if you are to lead other human beings, you're gonna have to care for them.
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And and so, and to even to the extent of, again, you're gonna have to love on them.
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And and love in this sense is not the squishy emotion when you think about romantic love and familial love.
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No, I'm talking about agape love, right?
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Love that is backed by action that leads to results.
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And that's what we are missing in the workplace.
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And and then, you know, and as we um venture into this new era of AI and digital communication, where people are just communicating through texting and apps, we're neglecting the human relationships and we're neglecting the connection with other people.
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Um and so we need to bring that back.
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And I think that an AI is great, we need it, it's gonna help us be more efficient, productive, and all that, but not at the expense of human relationships.
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So that's my long answer to your question.
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And that could lead us into all kinds of rabbit trails, right, Mark?
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Yeah, we love rabbit trails.
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So I'm I'm gonna go back into the bit of the story.
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So you had so you had you worked for this toxic boss, and then you had the good fortune to work for, you know, an exceptional boss as who you said, you know, you characterized as a servant leader.
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And um, and so did you what's you worked for this boss for a while, and then I'm just curious what happened there?
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What led you into going off on your own after I after the uh servant leadership experience?
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Yeah.
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Like did you leave that boss or did that boss what happened?
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Yeah, that was uh a it was a three-year assignment, and it it came to an end.
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And so we parted ways, but we stayed in touch.
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Yeah.
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Uh because you know, he he is part of my story.
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Yeah.
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I always reference his name is Bruce.
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Bruce is still around, and he knows that I I always drop his name in podcasts and in my book.
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So um, yeah.
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So after that, Bruce sort of became the model.
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And um, for uh what I believe is sort of, you know, the the consummate um leader, if you're gonna lead people and and and lead teams.
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But I needed the evidence.
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Yeah.
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And the evidence is clear.
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So I went into the research and of course, and then found all the tenets of servant leadership that leads to high performance.
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And then that began my my whole coaching uh work and developing a course based on servant leadership principles and practices.
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Uh, and and since I had the previous HR, organizational development, background talent management, and all that in my previous corporate world, I thought I was gonna get back in, oh I'm gonna fling my resume around to you know a few places and I'm gonna find another job and you know, life will go on.
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But nobody looked at my resume at that time.
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And so I think that, you know, the power of that bee, whatever your faith persuasion is, yeah, dictated that no, you're not going back to the corporate world.
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Yeah.
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You you have uh too much of a uh of an interesting gift to uh create mission around this, you know, this endeavor.
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So it became mission, it became calling.
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And so I started my own practice and went on my own.
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You know, and as you know, being an entrepreneur is is not for the faint of heart, right?
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So the those first three to five years, it was like, all right, well, how are we gonna pay the pay to keep the lights on in the house uh this month?
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So how long ago was that?
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Um started my practice in 2013.
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Okay.
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All right.
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It's not too long ago.
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That's the that's the old man's perspective.
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And then uh so 2013, you you hang your shingle.
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And then um when did you start doing the podcasts?
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The podcast came much later.
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Um I started to do speaking engagements here and there, and uh, and then just kind of building a platform, and then one thing led to another.
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Uh, Inc.
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magazine Kane Collin asked me to be a columnist, so I picked that up.
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And and then along the way, you know, back then, um, all the cool kids were doing podcasts.
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So I thought, I gotta jump on this bandwagon.
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So the podcast came in 2000 and I believe 18.
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Okay.
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So it was still pretty early on, really.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And and and you've had, uh, we were talking about this before we started, uh, you're at plus or minus 307, 306 or so.
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Right.
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Right.
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And you've had some amazing guests, right?
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Um uh at least, you know, I know a bunch of the names.
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Um, and uh and I I I I'm curious, do you have like three top podcasts, or do you have just, you know, three of three of those or three of the people that like you'll just, you know, it's um super special to you.
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It's just you know, you just think it was, you know, was one of those moments where you know you you had a triangulation of obviously hopefully you respect most of the people you bring on the show.
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So uh so respect, insight, some, you know, like OG's pop, you know, idea, or, you know, yeah, you know, just you know, just revelation or whatever you want to call it that came from from from you know, a couple of these different people, a couple of these different podcasts.
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Yeah, I think three come to mind.
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Um, you know, one for obvious reasons.
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Uh I I'm looking at the reason that this one stood out was because of uh his well, really he's a legend, and that's I'm speaking of uh Ken Belanchard.
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Yeah.
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And I've had him on the show twice.
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And uh, you know, and when you when you interview Ken, and you're you're it's you know, it's Uncle Ken, basically.
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It's like you're sitting at the feet of Uncle Ken because he has so many stories to tell.
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And and every story has an imp has a lesson for you to learn.
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Um, and uh, and so that you know, from uh from a sort of a a renowned expert, you know, person of uh that that you admire who has just uh a, I mean, I think he's written or co-written up to 66 books, if I mean he's up there with Maxwell, right?
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Right, right.
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So he's you know, he's up there at Mount Rushmore of leadership experts, management experts.
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Uh so that that one's stood out only only because it's can.
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Um the other one that stood out is as I was doing my research on psychological safety in the workplace, um I invited Harvard Business School Amy Edmondson to the show, and she came.
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And and it was I had to chase her for a good six months because her schedule is crazy busy.
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So uh, but yeah, Amy and I sat down.
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So that was a very enlightening conversation, you know, where she she talked about her research and uh she's written other other books since then, since that that pivotal research came out um on psychological safety.
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So Amy was the second one.
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I think the third one, boy, I'm gonna, it's probably a tie, but I'm gonna say Tomas Chamorro Promusic.
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He is an organizational psychologist.
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Um, and he wrote a book back in, I want to say maybe six, seven years ago, uh, called Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders and How to Fix It.
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And it was a well, it was a fascinating book.
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I highly recommend it, so put that on your show notes.
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But I also, the the conversation was fascinating because he's a fascinating dude that is, he's he's a scientist.
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Yeah.
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And uh, and so everything he's talking about, he's you know, he's backing it up with the evidence.
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And and he's he was basically saying that we historically have identified the wrong criteria for who to promote into higher ranks.
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We look at things like charisma and confidence and uh, you know, all of all of the the things that you would you would imagine uh you know uh if if I'm gonna promote somebody to a CEO or to a high-level senior, senior manager, that they have to have these external qualities, right?
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Air quotes, executive presence, whatever that means.
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I mean, come on, right?
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And so Tomas just kind of blew that out of the water and he says, well, you know, we need to start identifying people um to uh uh with emotional intelligence, humility, and he started to name off all of the all of the softer sides of leadership because that's where people usually miss the mark.
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You know, you got individual contributors who are technically they may or creative geniuses, right?
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They're great, they're like just completely proficient in in the you know, with the tools of their trade, right?
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And so they get promoted to management and they they fail because they don't understand what motivates human beings to to to succeed and flourish.
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Uh so Tomas is is really, I mean, I I highly recommend that.
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I don't know what episode I'll I'll get back to you on that so I can so you can put that in the show notes, but uh that that would be a really good one for your listeners to uh check out.
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Tomas Chamorro for music.
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Yeah.
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It's you know it's it's interesting the stereotypes around leadership.
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I mean, the fact is is that to lead means people will follow.
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And so then the question is, you know, is what are the characteristics that generate followership, right?
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And you know, we have a lot of examples growing up in particular, right, where our the leaders as kids are you know, they tend to be like the captains on on sports teams, right?
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And the captains on the sports teams, you know, there's a lot of research on it, and you know, they're usually you know a little bit older on average, they're a little bit bigger on average, right?
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And people just because of the little bit of the olderness and bigger, there's they they also develop and there's kind of a catch-22 here, but confidence, right?
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So they're they're they're they're competent because they're and and they're a little bit old, and so because they're a little bit older, and you know, there's a lot of Malcolm Gladwell stuff that I'm not a huge fan of, but there's some good stuff there as well, like on the outliers and the you know, the kids that you know the he talks about or wrote about what is it now, decades ago, right?
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That you know, in the hockey in in Canada, right, the kids who were born in the you know, almost at the beginning of the year, they were, you know, it when you're five years old, if you're almost a year older than someone, you're a lot bigger than the rest of the five-year-olds, right?
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And and it and and so you know, you you start to get this reinforcement around um, you know, you're good, you're a little bit better, you gain that confidence, right?
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And you throw that on with your if you're if you're a little bit bigger, you because you are a little bit bigger, because you're you know, it when you're five years old, you think about it versus someone else, one over five is is 20%, right?
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So you're 20% more mature, more developed, right?
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So it's it's it's fascinating, right?
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And then it just keeps to, you know, especially within the hockey system within Canada, you know, it persisted, and and that confidence and that competence just leads you to become, you know, just uh, you know, you know, uh sort of you know a stronger player.
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Um and and so you know, there used to be a lot of research.
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I haven't looked at it in forever and a day, but you know, a lot of CEOs were two, three, four inches, you know, taller than um the average you know person, right?
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And then you know, you had a lot of uh of CEOs who did have some athletic background, so you know, so there's this whole thing.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:02.960
And you know, we talk about charisma, et cetera.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:09.359
So there's a there's some logic behind it, there's history behind it, developmental history behind it.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:22.880
But then, you know, I'm trying to remember which book it was, but Jim Collins, right, he he brought that notion, uh, you know, challenged the notion uh that you needed to be this, you know, charismatic, hard driving.
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.240
And I I think did he use the term servant leader?
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:28.960
What did he use in in in and which book was it that this came out?
00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:30.000
Was it good to great?
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:31.200
Yeah, good to great.
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:34.480
He used uh level five leadership from his research.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:34.880
Yeah.
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:37.759
Which which closely resembles servant leadership.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:44.240
Uh and it's funny because I think he did propose that in the title and it got shot down.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.000
He proposed servant leadership as a title.
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:56.559
At least having the words servant leadership in in either the title or the subtitle, but uh that that was deemed as too soft and fuzzy at the time.
00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:57.759
Yeah.
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:03.119
But but and and and you know, it's it's interesting, right?
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.000
Because I can see that.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:12.880
Number one, uh it'd be fascinating to talk to Jim about that.
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:21.279
In hindsight, you know, do you wish you wouldn't have listened to whomever gave him that advice?
00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:40.960
Um, you know, now that, you know, and and his uh I'm just getting into his n his latest book, but um but I, you know, and I actually once had him speak to my um a group of clients that I brought to, you know, to a resort and spent a few days with.
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:48.559
Um and so I've met him and and you know, I one of the most influential books for my career was Built to Last, right?
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:56.559
That was like the and it and it interestingly it it came after I went down this rabbit hole on deming, right?
00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:06.559
Um and uh and demings, like I forget the name of his big book, but it was hard to read, right?
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:23.200
But I I I I fell into Deming when I'm in my twenties, and then Built to Last, you know, there was nothing in conflict between what Demings taught and what Porras and Collins observed.
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:36.880
And um, and so I've been I've been a fan of of of gyms literally since Built to Last, which I think has gotta be um right at the end of the 80s, if not early 90s.
00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:37.839
Right, right.
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:38.240
Yeah.
00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:50.799
So um, so back to your you know, this this whole notion of not every great leader is your classic, right?
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:55.920
Um stereotype, heuristic, whatever you want to say.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:02.160
Um, you know, there's there today there's a lot of research that supports that.
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:46.160
The interesting thing to me, especially today, is I think a lot of leaders and my senses, in particular, founders, right, struggle with what I like to refer to, and we talked a little bit about this on your podcast, struggle with you know high care versus high performance, right?
00:25:47.279 --> 00:26:07.519
And and creating, you know, a really super healthy environment where what I like to refer to as ideal employees can thrive because you know, different courses for different horses, not all people are gonna thrive.
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:27.200
Um and I'm curious, you know, now with 300 plus podcasts, are there some really good ones, conversation that you've had over the years around this particular topic?
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:31.599
Because I don't think it gets enough airtime.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:33.680
Yeah, that balance.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:34.319
Yeah, right.
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:36.640
That that and it's a fine balance.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:39.119
Um uh we've had many discussions.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:45.680
I I don't can't think of uh the person that I've had it with because it's been multiple guests.
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:46.160
Yeah.
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:55.039
Um, and uh, and you know, the uh the idea is that lots of leaders are caring leaders, but then people will walk all over them.
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:56.160
Well, why is that?
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:56.960
Yeah.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:05.680
Um well, simple fact that they don't set boundaries and then they'll h hold people accountable for excellence and high performance.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:23.599
And so there is your country country club leader that is a great cheerleader and is prolific at creating celebratory moments, you know, when the team wins, then you you it's it's rah-rah time, right?
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:26.400
It's like, hey, let's go have the tailgate party.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:28:00.880
But at the end of the, I'm not gonna say at the end of the day, I'm gonna say at the end of maybe the the quarterly uh uh numbers come in, um and you're underperforming financially as an organization and your metrics are down, then you need to look at, okay, who what's going on with the caring leaders that they can't um generate the results that we need to thrive as an organization, whatever business you're in.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:10.960
And so there's defined balance is that it's being a caring leader, but not at the expense of accountability and results.
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:23.119
You know, I always say that great leaders, there's they have to balance two sides of the scale, the relationship side and the results side.
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:28.799
In fact, that is a slide in my PowerPoint deck for one of my speaking engagements.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:36.079
I put I put the words relationships and results, and the word and is very tiny.
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:41.039
And I asked the audience, which word do you think is more important in this slide?
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:42.960
And is it relationships?
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:48.319
And then you know, half the room raised their hands, more than half, or is it results and lots of hands go up?
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:52.880
And I said, All of you are wrong, it's actually and because you have to have both.
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:54.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:54.400 --> 00:29:21.119
Yeah, and it and and and it's interesting that you use the term country club because I used to, and I don't talk about it as much anymore, but decades ago, I I I talked about this, you know, it's it's it's easier, it's much easier, right?
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:27.599
To create a culture where everybody gets along, right?
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:40.799
Or a warrior cult culture where everybody like is it's all about performance, it's all about output, it's all about themselves and and and winning, right?
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:50.480
And um and and and and balancing those two things, which we now call it, you know, balancing high care versus high performance.
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:52.559
It's just hard, right?
00:29:52.880 --> 00:30:11.119
And and I think I may have mentioned this on your podcast, but you know, in my old world, the world of you know lending and investing, um, you know, it I honestly was much easier in terms of culture building, right?
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:32.079
Because, you know, it was basically in my oldest, the sort of the first organization I ran, which was several hundred people and billions of dollars and in in investments and loans, um, it was you had to be on track to become uh, you know, sort of the equivalent of a managing director.
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:36.720
And and every, you know, and and there were steps, right?
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:40.880
And um probably I've I'm trying to remember, right?
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:47.039
It was like an associate and an assistant vice president, a vice president, and then a senior vice president, but something like that, right?
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:50.960
Three, four, five steps and to get to the MD level.
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:56.640
And at the MD level, you participated in all the upside associated with all of our investments.
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:07.279
Um and it was every if someone was going to get promoted, the conversation was do they have what it takes to become an MD?
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:13.039
And if they don't, then we need to say, hey, you know, we don't think you have what it takes.
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:15.119
These are the reasons why.
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:21.200
Um and we were really good at saying, look, um, we love you, right?
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:31.119
You've been great, because you know, we we're very good at hiring good human beings, something we continue to at 90, we're very good at doing that, right?
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:36.880
But, you know, it you just don't, you know, here are the reasons why we don't think you you have what it takes.
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:40.480
And uh, and so it is what it is.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:43.599
Um you should start looking for a job.
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:52.400
You can actually stay here, but just know and and and and and do your job search from your from your from your office, right?
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:55.200
And we'll give you like three months, right?
00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:04.640
But within three months, you gotta write make the move or you know, you know, or you know, you know, you'll just lose your office, right?
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:10.319
So um, and you know, the good news was it didn't happen all that often.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:22.640
I would say, you know, it happened uh somewhere between somewhere around 10-15% of the time that that those people, you know, we had to had had to have that hard conversation.
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:26.000
But fundamentally, everybody knew the rules, right?
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:40.319
Um, and then everybody also knew that because of the nature of our business, you were dealing with um a lot of different departments, teams within the organization.
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:49.920
And so it was a combination of you were performing well and people enjoyed working with you, right?
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:56.720
And so, as an example, if no one liked to work with you, then you that was gonna be an issue, right?
00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:03.440
Hey, you know, you're you're you're actually really good, you're very competent, you're technically proficient, you work your butt off, right?
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:05.839
But people don't like working with you, right?
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:13.039
And and in our organization, you know, you need to understand that we come together and and break apart all the time on a deal, right?
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:22.640
There may be an expert on an industry, it the deal needs to be syndicated, or we're looking to do an investment, and our investment team's gonna be involved, or or or right.
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:34.160
And so there's like four, four or five different groups that you're gonna interact with, and and you just need to be aware that you know your ability to be a good team player is super important.
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:40.400
So it was, you know, in in in hindsight, it was it was actually a really easy culture.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:47.440
Um, we got really clear on the kinds of people who would thrive in it, it tend and and what we could and couldn't hire from.
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:58.319
So we knew we couldn't hire from the Ivy League, but we could hire from the Big Ten, and we could hire people that graduated, you know, pretty, you know, with great grades, and we tended to hire a lot of athletes, right?
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:18.719
So it was like we had this whole formula versus, you know, in a software business where you have a bunch of different types of people, a bunch of different departments, you know, client success is an example, versus development versus sales versus versus um you know, product, it's just it's it's much more complex, complex.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:21.679
And it's not, you know, we don't have an upper out culture.
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:26.480
If you want to be a great engineer and you don't want to lead anybody, that's awesome, right?
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:35.440
So um, you know, it's it's it's interesting.
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:55.199
It's it's it's it's that whole care versus high care versus high performance in an organization that has a bunch of different types of humans in it and doesn't have a simple system for uh for you know for for rising to the top, it's just uh it's harder, I think.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:59.199
Um and I'm curious, you know, does this ring true to you?
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:07.599
And you know, as as you because obviously you're you're a great podcaster, but you're also you know someone who's worked with a lot of organizations over the years.
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:08.239
Yeah.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:16.639
I uh every time, Mark, I can make the link between high care to high performance, because we're we've been presenting it as, you know, you have to have both.
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:22.239
I actually think that, yes, you have to have both, but I think that one actually leads to the other.
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:33.679
When you when you're in a high care environment, people are going to be more motivated, more inspired to produce even greater work, right?
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:36.400
To go be above and beyond, as they say.
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:46.079
And um, and I've and of course, high care means that you set the right the right expectations for high performance.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:46.559
Yeah.
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:50.400
And and you create the conditions necessary for high performance.
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:52.880
That's the high caring part, right?
00:35:53.280 --> 00:36:05.599
Uh, and and so that's why high the high caring part is also very uh it's tricky because you have we talk about you don't want just country club cheerleaders, right?
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:18.960
You have to have strong leaders that set the expectations for, okay, here is here's where we are, here's where we we need to be.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:25.599
And here, and here's how we're gonna get there, and you're responsible for ABCD, right?
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:32.880
So that's setting clear expectations where people have clarity, they know what their role is, they have expectations.
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:39.199
And if they don't meet those expectations, the high caring leader says, all right, well, you know, what do you need here?
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:39.920
What's going on?
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:46.639
How come um you're pulling, you're not pulling your weight, you're not producing at the level we expect, et cetera, et cetera.
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:52.159
Maybe they need a little more care, or you know, maybe something in the system is broken.
00:36:52.239 --> 00:37:01.280
They don't have the right resources, they are not having, they're not being exposed to the right networks, um, or whatever the case may be, right?
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:17.440
So the high caring leader fixes that, looks at the system and says, all right, well, we need to tweak, tweak, tweak this because this our this contributor um is is really faltering, and so we need to boost this area in their development.
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:17.920
Okay.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:21.440
If that works, great, then that leads to high performance.
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:48.639
If that doesn't work, and you still have an underperformer who has really had all the support, he's got the resources, they have um clear lines of uh, you know, of uh of what to do and and and all of the uh the signals along the way, the markers along the way for for keeping them on track to high performance.
00:37:48.719 --> 00:38:01.440
And if they're still not getting there, the high-caring leader now has to provide some tough love to say maybe this is not the right environment for you.
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:17.920
Okay, and have those honest conversations that will actually benefit the person long term because if they are failing in your current organization, you want to set them free so that they can thrive in another organization.
00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:23.119
And the high caring leader says, I have a great contact at XYZ company.
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:32.639
I want to make an intro and you know, help pave the way for that person, that person's next career move.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:38.480
So again, yeah, I think that, yeah, I mean, we're I think you're we're on track here.
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:47.440
High caring and high performance, but I believe that the high caring will lead to high performance when you have those things in place.
00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:01.679
Presuming you have a, you know, that the person has what it takes to fit well within the culture and well within the seat that they're they're in from a competency perspective.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:20.159
Over the last 13 plus years of your practice, have you seen things change in terms of, yeah, I would say, this conversation that we're having right now, this this this challenge of balance.
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:27.679
Has it been is it is the same old story, or has, you know, for a host of reasons.
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:34.880
Um, I'm gonna go, you know, obviously we have YouTube now for people who are really interested.
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:54.559
We have obviously AI for people who are really interested in self-development, um, and or you know, and and that includes both, you know, the individual contributors as well as the as the as the you know, sort of the first-time team leaders and and and and and uh and and then leaders of leaders.
00:39:54.880 --> 00:40:04.880
Has the nature of the challenges that you see your clients dealing with, has it evolved, or is it the same old story?
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:27.440
Yeah, um, I I could take this the AI route, but I also, Mark, I have lots of clients that they don't even dabble in AR because they might be in manufacturing environments and they're you know, they're walking the shop floor uh in between these multi-million dollar machines that are you know 20 feet high.
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:29.920
So they're not gonna touch AI.
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:36.079
They won't even, they might not even touch a uh a computer screen most of the day.
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:51.440
Yeah um and so in in that scenario, what I have seen is a lack of having what I call really uh it's leadership courage.
00:40:51.920 --> 00:41:00.960
What I mean by that is that there's lots of buzzwords around how to be more courageous in the leading people, leading yourself, right?
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:03.119
Some people call it authenticity, right?
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:04.639
You have to be authentic.
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:09.760
Uh that's an umbrella term that can go a thousand directions.
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:10.239
Yeah.
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:13.519
Um I think it's just speaking your truth.
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:24.880
And in those manufacturing environments that I'm finding there, it it it there's more of a blue-collar feel to these environments.
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:53.760
Um and and I don't know if that's indicative of uh let's just kind of fly by the seat of our pants, you know, it's like they're wearing jeans and and t-shirts, so it's maybe, you know, I don't know if they're not taking leadership as serious uh or they don't understand the impact that they must make on their workforce um through leadership.
00:41:53.920 --> 00:42:09.920
And one of the things that I see is that they don't have the courage to have hard conversations early on to avoid situations that they're going to regret later.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:24.400
And you can, you know, use your imagination what what those worst case scenarios might be sexual harassment, uh, you know, um whatever, stealing, uh something unethical.
00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:46.000
And and and so I've been I'm I'm like forcing myself now to make sure that these clients of mine who are high-level managers in these these uh on-site environments understand the the importance of communication, but not just communication for the sake of talking.
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:58.800
It's basically having the the skills to resolve conflict before it happens, or if you're already in the middle of conflict, is to manage the conflict, to get to the other side.
00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:05.920
Uh and and so I'm I'm finding that that is uh that that's something that I'm really keying in on.
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:15.519
And I don't know about your practice if that comes up a lot, like you know, where people are not having the right conversations, they're afraid of confrontation.
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:18.480
Because nobody likes conflict, right, Mark?
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:21.519
Has that changed over the 13 years?
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:23.199
I mean, it's interesting, right?
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:32.880
I've I I I I you I I'm as people in my company know, I actually do not really love the term psychological safety.
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:41.599
Okay and and and it's because it asks one to be able to look into the mind of another.
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:47.119
Um and that's like uh I'm not a magician, I can't read people's minds.
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:55.039
So, you know, there's that for some people, a conversation that seems like really straightforward.
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:59.760
It's not about you, it's about behaviors and it's about, you know, or performance.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.840
performance or something like that.
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:20.239
Um and we, you know, we've experienced in our company in the last, I want to say last last year, where it was just a literally a conversation around some areas where, you know, someone could improve um their performance and the person, right?
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:25.119
The reaction was, you know, just totally unexpected, right?
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:36.000
Just as if like if I'm not, you know, if if if if if I'm not deemed great at everything, then I'm, you know, I'm I'm extraordinarily upset.
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:40.960
I hate to, you know, I'm just being honest right now about a an experience we've had in our own company.
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:47.599
Has it changed or is it this been the same this way for 13 plus years?
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:59.920
I think that human nature will continue to um we're we're gonna be seeing the same things over over the course of decades because that's human nature.
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:00.480
Right.
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:08.159
And uh and you know our tendency a tend the tendency for a lot of people is shirk it's to shirk back instead of show up, right?
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:19.760
Instead of rising to the occasion, you kind of you know you sweep things under the rug or you you you don't want to deal directly with with problems.
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:28.880
And um and so I I think it's been around and it hasn't changed in in 13 years that I'm doing it.
00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:43.840
It's because Mark when I look at exit interview reports and and engagement surveys uh the same stuff comes up all the time and and 90% of the time are related to people issues.
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:44.800
Oh 100%.
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:45.760
Yeah.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:51.440
I mean it's the old expression you know I I think or or I think it's statistic, right?
00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:55.760
The number one reason someone leaves is because of their boss.
00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:56.880
Right.
00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:13.920
And I have a related story by the way a couple so um so circling back and and closing the loop on this one is that a high caring leader will have the courage to address the elephant in a room.
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:26.320
And um and that's what I mean by rising up to the occasion it's going to be hard maybe to address a team who's underperforming.
00:46:26.400 --> 00:52:06.320
It's gonna be hard to address a contributor who um did some kind of wrongdoing but in doing so and and in having the courage to have those hard conversations you are protecting the culture from bigger problems down the line right and um it's it's one of my favorite things is a leader is is the the protector you know sort of the shepherd right the shepherd protects the sheep from predators and unfortunately there might be some predators inside your organization and you need to protect your flock from those predators right and um so that's that's what that's one one thing I wanted to chime in on the other one is uh is uh uh gosh uh years ago I I did an exit interview and the the number five reason as I gathered the data the number five reason uh for people quitting and by the way this company had a about a 50% turnover fifth five zero fifty percent turnover yeah and they were in the advertising space uh pointed back to the CEO and uh and and you know the CEO had everything we've been talking about that people imagine is what floats to the top right he was driven he was crass he was uh results oriented you know just he just looked at the bottom line yeah um but he didn't have the high the high carrying side right he was uh in his mind a high performer uh but you know when you when you look behind there's nobody following them in fact everyone is following out the door so um and uh was that a was that uh out of curiosity was that a founder or was that uh you know a a a a CEO who came in later on in the company a CEO with a an with a really good track record of driving results with uh Fortune 500 companies and he came to this organization that was only about 80 people um and he asserted his positional authority right off the bat and for a lot of people that it rubbed them off the wrong way especially those that had been around for a while like hey this new CEO hasn't even had a chance to get to know us right um and to understand how things operate he just showed up and said this is gonna be we're gonna change this this and that um anyway so yeah two years later 50 travel and that was a client right so that CEO became a client is that true um the client was not the CEO funny funny story there right the the client was the the the direct report of the CEO so somebody reporting to the CEO and uh and so I had a I had a nice line of sight to what was going on through the eyes of my my of my immediate client my you know contact person and so how did and and did you end up ever having conversations with a CEO or how do you how do you help a company where your you know your client isn't the CEO and the CEO is the issue I I guess how did you advise your client on how to handle all this issue here's here's the clincher and and and people are this is going to blow you away um I sat down with a report I had the data and I sat down and with with that CEO and I said uh you know uh I want to show you what's going on and uh according to the data that has been coming in from all your exit interviews I pointed out the fact that he was part of the problem right and his response was I want the names of all those people in the exit in exit interview report and in my mind I'm thinking that's confidential data you don't share exit interview data with anybody that goes into uh into the employee file and uh you know in in in the HR vault I didn't even know I mean I try to keep everything anonymous you know and confidential yeah um so I decided to part ways with that client yeah out of uh out of purely out of my own integrity because I knew okay this client no longer aligns with who who I am what I'm about and uh and this is unethical so we ended that that engagement uh soon after that and you know and and by the way and then the company folded uh maybe six seven eight months after that I mean literally folded they they fold they they folded they just they went away yes I I my phone was blowing up one day I had left you know I had left and my phone was blowing up with employees texting me is like they just let us go and um and they yeah so everybody got their walking their their walking papers and uh uh and then they lost their funding and uh you know and they could not operate as a business anymore.
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:08.480
So that's that story.
00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:17.519
Yeah guess uh I I I presume there were investors who brought that CEO in and probably that was the board.
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Yeah and and you know and the board boards have their own um perception yeah of what it takes for somebody to uh take us to the next level and and and that's why this this conversation is is really important and I go back to my interview on my podcast with Tomas who basically said too many narcissists are rising to to the top because we are rewarding these behaviors that are more indicative of people that have large egos don't you know all it's all about them and and and they'll just drive the business into the ground.
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:20.079
They may succeed and they may um you know appease your your shareholders if you're a public company and they may appease the expectations of your your your board and uh and your customers etc but the employees are the ones that are going to suffer.
00:53:20.239 --> 00:53:27.119
Yeah and last time I checked us the employees that do the work for your business to succeed.
00:53:27.280 --> 00:55:43.599
So yeah I think I think you know it's interesting um you know I I've written a little bit about sociopaths and psychopaths and narcissists and basically anti-social disorders right and um you know within certain environments those are who win right um and generally speaking within any tyranny whether we're talking about a you know a company or a society right um where it's all about like that that strong person right and strong people getting to the top the I'll do whatever it damn well takes personality it's getting to the top and never releasing their um position because on the way up right they did a lot of things to a lot of people and uh you know and and you know we can talk about Russia we can talk about China we could talk about Cuba we could talk about Venezuela we can talk about a bunch of different societies where you know the and it's interesting too because those are actually more relationship oriented cultures but the the but the sociopaths the the antisocials get to the top and then can't relinquish it because if they do right someone's going to come along and just take care of them and and and it's even you know it's even there's really interesting um story behind uh a Nobel peace winner who ended up becoming a very bad person um you know society uh country leader uh because you know they rose to the top and they weren't willing to give up any authority and they you know took a took town a lot of people to get there.
00:55:43.920 --> 00:57:16.639
So you know it's interesting too because if you think about that then right if you have a really good sort of high care high performance culture and I'm just thinking out loud with you right now it's hard for those people to make it to the top yeah why is that I'm really asking because I th I think the the win it all costs a player right who you know elbows a you know a bunch of people on the way up right they're gonna get called out for it because that's not part of the culture right yeah um and so whereas you know in a in a in a you know if you're if you over even if you overindex on care and relationships right the sneaky ones will snake their way up right um but if you have both going where you really have to perform and you really have to be you know just a good human that people genuinely like working with or love working with to use the term you and I are going to sort of close up here on, um then I think it's har I think you know and if you have a good system where people are comfortable back to you know I don't like the term psychological safety, right?
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But psychological courage I love, right?
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:45.360
But but it but if if if you have a culture where you know we have a we have one of our guiding principles is succeed or escalate right so if there's an issue right and I I tell this and I didn't do this on your podcast right but I've done this on I've shared this a bunch of times if you know I I like to think of of of businesses like boats, big boats, cruise ships, right?
00:57:45.840 --> 00:58:08.559
Because we've got a bunch of people on here right um and we've got not only our employees but we got our customers on this thing right and if you're on a cruise ship and you're an employee right and there's a hole in the hull and water's coming through it right what are you going to do?
00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:11.119
Right?
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You're either going to fix it because you have that capability or you're gonna go get someone because obviously if you don't right really bad things happen.
00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:21.679
Right.
00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:40.320
So succeed or escalate the big idea here is if there's a hole in the side of the boat, if there's something that doesn't make sense, if there's something that's hurting us in terms of our performance there's something hurting us in terms of our culture there's something hurting us in terms of being able to serve our customers right you are you know you are accountable.
00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:46.639
You're responsible right for for either fixing it or elevating it so someone can fix it.
00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:55.519
And if that person who you elevated to is incapable of fixing it right then you it needs to be elevated.
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And if that person who's incapable of fixing it does not elevate it then it's incumbent on you to let us know that hey I brought this up the hole's still like there's still water coming through here right and and so you know creating an organization creating a culture where succeed or escalate is is yeah is is is is you know is genuinely embraced yeah and my perspective on this ultimately is if you can create a culture where people genuinely care about the company right they genuinely care about what's in the best interest of the company then like so much else is easy.
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It's obvious right but if you don't care about the company right you just care about your team or you just care about yourself right then then you know it's inevitable that you're gonna make decisions that actually are not in the best interest of the company because you're like I'm just focused on myself or I'm I care about my team and its health and happiness more than I care about what's good for the company.
01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:15.360
But ultimately I think that really strong cultures at their core appreciate the company and what the company's trying to do.
01:00:15.760 --> 01:00:21.360
And they're good at balancing high care and high performance.
01:00:21.519 --> 01:00:51.599
And if you can do those three things right genuinely create a culture that cares generally create a culture where there's high care, high performance and help other people develop the ability to have some courage and talk about things that you know that diamond I think is very strong.
01:00:53.440 --> 01:02:18.800
Couldn't agree more yeah and it's easier said than done I wanna I I want to finish on one final word that you and I both use and that's the word love and you talked about it earlier it's not it's it's it's not romantic love right it's not familiar love right because sometimes there are going to be people who just don't make sense either because of competence right and the requirements of the seat or because culturally they're just toxic right um how do you explain the word love to your clients in the workplace oh easy um you have to back back it with action that creates results so in my book I talk about uh I I have a framework of five core principles of of love in action right and patience kindness which kindness is talking about empathy and compassion is under kindness humility advocacy so you advocate on behalf of others and trustworthiness because nobody's gonna follow a leader they can't trust.
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:59.119
Right and uh and so when you create a culture around the around that framework you're going to experience transformation and um and I think that that's that's where I would end here is my is to look at love as a call to action to shift to look at what needs to shift in my workplace in my business um so that people flourish yeah because when they flourish you're gonna get higher output you're gonna get higher performance and that leads to really good business outcomes.
01:03:00.079 --> 01:06:21.360
Yeah I I have a twist on it I agree with everything but back to my earlier point about care about the company right um you know I focus one of the things I I I I teach and pontificate about is developing high trust relationships with all of your ideal stakeholders right and your ideal stakeholders are your ideal employees right so you have an ideal employee profile your ideal customers so you have an ideal employee ideal customer profile you have best investors almost always right um and there should be an ideal investor profile and then we have partners right and then we belong to a community and my perspective is we have to develop high trust relationships with all of those ideal stakeholders and so everything you said plus caring about the entire stakeholder set as opposed to just you andor your team because ultimately right a company is a collection a complex adaptive system and I I've written something recently and and we won't be able to get into it here and maybe it's another podcast sometime but companies are humans too right and just like humans go through developmental stages companies go through developmental stages just like humans need to be care and you know protected and cared for companies need to be protected and cared for right and so it's a slightly more like it's just one more dimension where I think you put all that together and you create a place where people genuinely love working there right genuinely understand that it's all about taking care of all of the ideal stakeholders right and in order to do that it's almost impossible without trying to do your best to create a culture that has both high care and high performance because it's a ship right and entropy's everywhere right that that everything's rusting but you know if you if you take really good care of it and you succeed or escalate and you make sure that you know and there's some people that shouldn't be on the ship right and that's hard that's a hard thing to say and by the way it's not just your own employees it's customers too right oh yeah so speaking of not some people shouldn't be on the ship I'll make this real quick a client had an executive team of six I brought on servant leadership started to do coaching put them on masterminds workshops two of the VPs they were kind of faking it till they made it if you know what I mean.
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Oh yes they were just pretending that they were fully bought into the idea of hey we're gonna create a servant leadership culture well that didn't last very long and uh and they resigned so it obviously the two huge holes to fill right VP level but the company was better off because of it.
01:06:46.400 --> 01:07:13.679
Yeah because those two well those two persons would have been a monkey wrench in the system for months if not years to come um you need to really have the collective truly believe in this this higher aspiration towards a better leadership model than what we have in most companies.
01:07:13.920 --> 01:08:23.920
Anyway so they left and uh and I reached out to one of them and I said hey I you know we just wanted to uh ask you what what happened and and he was frank he says yeah I just couldn't see myself um working as as a servant leader because he wasn't oriented that way it was more important for him to uh you know meet his numbers and get his status and get his promotions and accolades and all that so so it's not for everyone no no no it's not hey listen this has been awesome thank you for joining me here and and having this conversation I uh uh yeah leadership is yeah I I think it's a lot more complex these days than than you know and you we we didn't get into AI and we could do that another time but um but you know there's a there's probably a good reason why like 50% of the people never want to be managers because it it's it's it's that's not for everybody.
01:08:24.079 --> 01:08:46.960
But man oh man if you if you can you know if you can build a great team be part of a great organization you know and um and and and and and you know 90% of the time feel like you you know you you just you know you love where you work and you love the people you work with um that's a pretty damn good thing.
01:08:47.119 --> 01:08:56.800
So I I I I I super appreciate the work you do and um and uh just want to say thank you for it and thank you for joining me.
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I appreciate it very much uh this has been a a really good conversation and hopefully more people will listen to it.
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Appreciate the invitation mark my pleasure thanks Marcell