How to Have Difficult Conversations, Featuring Julia Dhar

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Welcome to Coping with Ghosting, the podcast that provides hope, healing, and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted, betrayed, or hurt in relationships.
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I'm your host, Gretta, certified post-betrayal transformation coach, and today's episode is all about using your voice when other people disagree, speaking up during conflict, and discovering productive ways to have difficult conversations.
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Whether it's in your personal or professional life, learning to navigate these moments changes everything.
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Joining me to unpack the behavioral science behind how we navigate tension and find real common ground is Julia Dahr.
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Trained as a behavioral economist, Julia is currently the managing director and partner at Boston Consulting Group and the co-founder of their behavioral science lab.
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Her TED talks on productive disagreement have sparked global conversations.
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She's a regular Forbes columnist, and she has a new book, How Change Really Works.
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Julia, welcome to the show.
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Gretta, thank you for having me, and thanks for everything that you do.
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It's my pleasure.
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And I want to start with the baseline of human behavior.
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When tension arises, so many people shut down, freeze, or even leave the room.
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Why do people avoid difficult conversations?
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It feels so hard.
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Like I can imagine for some of your listeners, even just us talking about it, you might start to feel really uncomfortable.
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And there are some really good biological explanations that suggest that the way that we instinctively react to what we anticipate will be a difficult conversation is the same as to a physical threat.
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So that part is really real for us.
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And there are, of course, techniques that we can use to cope better, like in that immediate moment.
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But I think there are also really big psychological things going on for us as well, which is at a moment of tension, which I think it's really important that we remember is not the same as conflict, which is not the same as disagreement, we do tend to freeze up and then start to extrapolate what we think might be about to happen, and then start to feel all of those emotions, or all the possible negative emotions that might flow from that.
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It is basically as though there is this chain reaction happening very quickly inside of us that says, I am about to be in a big fight, or I'm about to be in a really uncomfortable place.
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And a really good thing that we can do is pause and say, is that true?
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Absolutely.
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I think assumptions are unhelpful.
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And so asking, is this real?
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Is this a fact is one of the best questions.
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I say that all the time that the world is made up of facts and feelings.
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And it is very, very, very often true that a feeling, especially the feeling of another person, is much more important than a fact.
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But a feeling is not the same thing as a fact.
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Yeah, that's great food for thought.
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And it kind of leads into what you call the false alignment trap.
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Can you share what this is and how it shows up in boardrooms and our everyday relationships?
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Oh my gosh, of course.
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I think it shows up everywhere.
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So in the book, and by the way, the very first chapter of the book, How Change Really Works, This is How Much We Care About It.
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And we spent a whole first chapter on it.
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We talk about the difference between true agreement and false alignment.
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The basic way that I think about that is have we made a contract, set a clear set of expectations or made a good set of promises to one another?
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And so let me talk about the opposite for a second.
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Let me talk about false alignment.
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And we've probably all experienced a version of this, maybe we've all done a version of this, where someone will describe a view of the world or an opinion, or at work it might even be a suggestion about what should happen next on a project.
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Um, and you might be thinking to yourself, I'm generally in the same place as them, but I wouldn't do it this way.
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You might be thinking, I do not agree that this is the right thing to do or the best thing to do, but this is a well-intentioned person.
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I want to be helpful and I really want to be kind.
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You might also, by the way, be thinking to yourself, I totally disagree with this person.
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I reject everything that they stand for, but we don't have a lot of time, and I they can't get into this today.
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In any of those situations, partly to move things along, partly to get themselves out of the uncomfortable situation, we might say, I'm aligned.
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And I think alignment is such a dangerous word.
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It's such a dangerous word at work.
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It's a dangerous word in relationships.
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Because it is a way to smooth over the edges of where we might, in fact, not have an agreement.
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And if we are trying to do something meaningful together or be in relationship together, then being in agreement, or even being in disagreement, is much better than being in false alignment.
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And so what does true agreement look like instead?
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True agreement would be me saying, um I think um, or I am proposing that what we should do next is X, Y, and Z.
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Here's why I think that is important.
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And here is how specifically I imagine that working.
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And the reason I love that is that then it gives me the opportunity to ask you, Gretta, for your agreement.
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If I ask you, are we I look around the room, I say, are we all aligned?
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You feel like a bit of a jerk at that moment saying, no, we're not aligned.
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There's not a lot of room to do that most of the time, especially if that person is senior to you.
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But if you put the obligation back on me to say, I'm asking for your agreement, I've had to be more specific about what my request is.
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But I've also made it easier for you to give that some thought to say, do I agree?
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Is my agreement something I am willing to give at this moment?
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And because human beings are generally primed, hardwired for integrity, if we make an agreement, if we make a promise, we will try to keep it.
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It makes it much more likely that we're going to have a successful relationship in the future.
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The thing that I think is beautiful about this, by the way, of pushing yourself to say, where do I have a false alignment and where do I have a true agreement?
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Is nowhere in there necessarily was a conflict.
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There might have been a fair bit of ambiguity, but what I am doing is excavating how close together you and I actually are, rather than assuming it, rather than taking you for granted.
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Could you give a real life example of how this might show up in relationships like a friendship or even a romantic relationship?
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Um, oh my gosh, yes.
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And so let me give you like a workplace example and then like how you might test it out um in your relationship.
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A really simple workplace example for uh any of us would be um to get, if you if you work on a team, for example, to say to people, let's take a pen and a piece of paper, each person will write down, what do you think the purpose of this team is?
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What are our most important goals and objectives?
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Would be another really good question.
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If you do that, often you would say, Oh, we're in the same rough ballpark, hopefully, although sometimes not.
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Um, but we're not the same.
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We, and so much of our conflict and confusion might actually stem from the fact that we had quite different perceptions of what was really going on here.
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Um, if you think about in the context of a relationship or a friendship, I love to think about thought experiments like um what have we agreed between the two of us is the appropriate amount of time that can pass before you reply to a text?
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Um what um amount of time should we be spending together in any given week or month?
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Um how should we speak about the other person when they are not present, for example?
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And these are all places where you might say, Oh, we have some amount of alignment.
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Uh I think you should reply, as soon as possible.
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Okay, like what does as soon as possible mean?
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It's very different, that very likely that means something totally different to you and to me.
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Uh, we should be spending a meaningful chunk of time together each week.
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Okay, I'm aligned with that, but there's nothing I can agree to there, in fact.
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We should try to speak kindly about one another when the other is not present.
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Okay, but like what is fair game, what's not fair game, at what level of detail?
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What you can see underneath all of that is actually what we're doing when we look for agreement is saying, how do we, in an open-minded, generous, hopefully thoughtful way, convey our expectations and even more importantly, come to understand someone else's expectations and how far apart those might be.
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I think that's so important to do, to establish kind of the framework of the relationship of what are my needs, what are your needs, how can we meet in the middle, all of that.
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That's so important.
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But then there's also a lot of times where we have disagreements, and it could be anything from like at the Thanksgiving table with family or during a stressful meeting with a boss, in romantic relationships when you're having a heart-to-heart.
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But so, like, why is disagreement often easier than we expect?
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And if we disagree on some of the things you were talking about before, like, how often do you want me to text you?
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Like, like, what are some ways to build a bridge?
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And it may not be that we meet in the middle, by the way, but we'll come back to and we'll come back to that.
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So, why does it feel so hard?
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Why is it so difficult for us?
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And psychologists continue to work on this, but what we know for sure is for almost everyone, when we think about a conflict or a difficult conversation or encounter that we need to have, we will probably fall victim to what we call in the behavioral sciences a faulty effective forecasting error.
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We imagine that it will be worse than it is in reality.
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And we imagine that we will feel worse for having the conversation.
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Um, and we also project a set of feelings onto the other person as well.
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I also think where the hierarchies are very different, by the way, if you think about someone's um boss, we imagine that it might, for example, be much more awkward um for them than it will be in practice.
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And so that's what's happening for us up front.
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It is likely to be much worse than we imagine.
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Generally speaking, most things don't get better by not talking about them, by not naming them, but it is really, really hard to do so.
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So I don't trivialize how hard it is to start the conversation.
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The mental flip that I really like, by the way, is to say I'm not looking for, oh my god, I have to have this disagreement or I have to have this hard conversation with Gretta.
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I've already loaded it up.
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But if instead I said, oh, what I'm hunting for here is a true agreement with Gretta, I want to understand her better.
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It is important to me that she understands better where I am coming from.
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And I want to invite her agreement on something, but she's not obliged, she doesn't owe me anything, she's an obligator to give it to me.
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I personally find that so much more relieving than saying, oh, we have to have this disagreement, we've got to hash this thing out.
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I say, where's a place where we have some shared reality?
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Where could we look for agreement on what we are trying to do together?
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And I hope that psychologically lowers the temperature a little bit for all of us in terms of actually starting to have these conversations and to practice them.
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That's a really good place to start.
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It's common ground.
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And one of the things that I think that often exposes and opens up is you talked about meeting in the middle.
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And sometimes it is about us meeting in the middle and saying, oh, I understand one another.
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Sometimes that process of actually looking for true agreement says you want to have a very different opinion on something, but we also care very different quantities about it.
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I'll give you an example.
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When we went through the process of writing this book, we tried to also apply all of the science in the book to writing the book with three people, which is not an easy task.
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And one of the things that we would do is go through this process of having attempts and conversations to get to like true agreements around things.
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Often one of the ways that they were resolved was to say there's no compromise here.
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There are only two options.
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Like one person's answer is going to end up being the answer that makes it into the book.
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And the thing that often broke it open was saying, oh, but you Julia, in this case, cares a lot.
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And Christy has a different opinion, but cares not like, cares like not at all.
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Julia cares an eight on a scale of one to ten.
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And Christy cares a two.
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And if Christy cares about Julia and trust Julia, which in this case I very much think and hope that she does, just the knowledge that Julia cares a lot is enough to say, I feel differently.
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I don't care that much.
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Therefore, I feel comfortable that we're going to agree to do it your way.
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And we do a really bad job when we find ourselves, we say, oh, I think we're in a conflict of figuring out first how much do we care?
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And how much does the other person care?
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And do we care how much they care?
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I think that's a great suggestion.
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I was gonna ask, as my next question, something that I think you've just kind of answered, which is that in a lot of my past relationships and relationships that I observe with some of my friends, I see people getting stuck in a loop.
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Like they have the exact same argument over and over again with zero resolution.
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And these are about really complicated matters with a lot of different factors of what should we do?
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Like something like, should we have kids, that kind of thing.
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So how can people break that cycle and actually have like an honest, productive conversation that moves them forward without hurting each other?
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And I know you just like answered that, but if you could elaborate.
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Step number one is to start with what you share.
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So, what is that shared reality?
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What do we both agree on?
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Um, a good example might be um like we both agree um that you the continuing successful health of this relationship to us is the most important thing.
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And that will remain the most important thing whether or not we decide to have children together, for example.
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That would be the case for everyone, by the way.
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That might not be a reality that you share, but that would be a good shared reality to articulate if that was something that you could both agree on.
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So instead of starting with the mega discussion, uh, we're going to have children, or um, are we not, are we going to move to San Diego or are we not?
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Let's start with what we share and what we both care about.
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The reason that I think that is the most useful place to start is instead of saying you and I are sitting opposite um each other having this fight, we're now sitting both on the same side, like looking at the challenge, looking at the problem together.
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Um it is in front of both of us, not sitting in between.
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Uh that's step number one.
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Look for shared reality.
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The second one is, and my gosh, this is painful to do.
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It's really hard to do.
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Um, it's really hard to do in the moment, is to try to separate your own ideas and opinions, even your own beliefs from your identity.
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So what you have as an opinion today, a belief today, what you think about an issue right now that isn't who you are.
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Those are just thoughts you have, like opinions or beliefs that you hold at the moment.
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Um and it is possible that those can change without you changing as a person.
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And sometimes the reason we get so trapped is that we think it is who we are, that what we believe right now is who we are.
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A really easy experiment on this is to ask people um, do you think that you have changed meaningfully over the last 10 years?
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People will look back at who they were 10 years ago and generally speaking will say, oh my gosh, it's like I'm a different person.
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Different habits, routines, relationships, different work, different beliefs, traditions, whatever it is.
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But it's hard for us to appreciate in the moment that our ideas and our identities are constantly evolving and not fixed.
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So just because you said something last time, just because you believed something last time, doesn't mean that you have to believe it this time.
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And staying open to that possibility will be helpful for you and also um for the other person.
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And then the third part, perhaps like the most difficult and the most humbling part is why are we even having this conversation in the first place?
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Why are we having this discussion?
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And if the reason that we are having this discussion um is so that at the end of everything that I've said, you will agree that you are completely wrong and I'm completely right, and we should always do it my way, this is maybe not a realistic goal.
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Um, and it is unlikely to be a very pleasant experience for the other person.
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If you say we're sitting down together so that you can agree to do it my way, it's unlikely that this is going to build the strength of the relationship.
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But I think often if we're honest with ourselves in these tense relationships, tense situations, that's sort of what we're hoping for.
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We're sort of hoping that if we have this conversation one more time, eventually the person will see how wrong they were and how right we are about whatever it is that you're talking about.
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I think you need to let go of that goal, saying I'm here to just make persuade someone into submission with the correctness of my point of view, but what I am trying to do is to learn together, including learn about the other person.
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That's a great way to approach it.
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And these are all excellent suggestions that will help a lot of people.
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So thank you for that.
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It will continue to help me, by the way.
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It is, um, I think even just a reminder that it is difficult and to do, but that we have so many chances and opportunities.
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Like every encounter we have with someone we care about is a chance to do that better, to build not only a stronger relationship, hopefully with more trust and kindness, but also a better understanding of who we are and who they are.
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Exactly.
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And building on this, and this goes to the listeners and viewers who have been ghosted after conflicts and disagreements, there is the reality that we cannot control other people's choices or actions.
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Um, so Julia, from your perspective as a behavioral scientist, what Are the keys to setting up a relationship with a stronger foundation from the start so that when conflict does arise, the people involved feel secure enough to stay rather than leave?
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One of the reasons why I think ghosting is so confronting and disappointing and upsetting for us, no matter the circumstance under which it happens, is how hard it is for the human brain to cope with uncertainty.
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We can cope with lots of negative things, with rejection and disappointment and loss.
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Those things are still very painful.
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But uncertainty is so tough for us because you feel like you are living in between for a long time.
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And that is the part of why I think ghosting can be such a challenging experience for us.
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What can we do at the beginning of a relationship?
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Firstly, obviously, it starts with working on ourselves and accepting that we don't have control over the choices and decisions that other people make, including in relation to us.
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And very often, not always, but very often, um, when you are ghosted, it might have absolutely nothing to do with you, might have everything to do with the other person and their situation, and nothing to do with you.
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And that's easy to say and really hard to accept.
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How do we set it up so that and things might be different in the future?
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Or when we're establishing a relationship at the beginning.
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One of my absolute favorite practices, and I use this in organizations at work with leadership teams all the time, but it comes from couples therapy and family therapy, is to really put a lot of emphasis on making a clear and specific request.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.079
Making a clear and specific request.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:15.920
And so often when people frustrate us and they don't behave the way that we think that they should, or our expectations of them have been violated, if we reflect for a moment and say, but did I make a clear and specific request?
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:21.920
How would they have known that that is what I wanted or expected?
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.519
It becomes obvious that that hasn't happened in the beginning.
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:32.160
And so you assume that they just should have known or would have known or can read your mind.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:53.359
But as an insurance policy against none of those things happening, starting out by making a set of clear and specific requests for people around what a constructive partnership or a constructive relationship would look like, and whether or not someone can agree to that is a really, really good starting point.
00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:54.640
That's number one.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:25:05.279
Number two, and this is my favorite, and it comes from far outside personal or intimate and romantic relationships, and it comes from the world of international negotiations.
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:12.160
So people who negotiate on behalf of their countries, you know, think about trade agreements or treaties or that type of thing.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:23.599
And there are people who track the success of these negotiators and what it looks like to be really successful as a negotiator versus like the average negotiator.
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:28.160
And it's so small, so trivial, but I this is why I love it so much.
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:39.359
The really disproportionately successful negotiators do two things differently in a relationship with someone else, including someone they might be hostile to, but early on.
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:45.440
Number one, every encounter they have with someone, they treat as an opportunity for learning.
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.640
So look, we're probably not going to make a ton of progress today.
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:51.920
We're probably not going to sign a new free trade agreement.
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:59.200
But what I have is an opportunity to learn about who the person is, what their interests are, what they care about.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:02.160
The same is true in our personal relationships.
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:05.759
We don't think about it like that often, and it sounds really clinical.
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:10.160
They're actually saying I can keep learning about a person.
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.559
I will never fully know a person.
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:16.880
And every moment that I have with them is a chance to learn a little bit more about them.
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:17.839
That's number one.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.680
I think that mindset is really magical.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:23.759
Number two, this is even more trivial, but I think even more magical.
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:33.200
The difference for really successful negotiators is on average, they ask about one more question.
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:42.640
Not 50 more questions, not five more questions, not two more hours in every encounter they have, they ask about one more question.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:48.799
And for me, statistically actually a little less than one, but let's say round up and call it one.
00:26:48.799 --> 00:27:06.720
It's like, okay, all of us could do that at the beginning, understanding someone where we wanted a little bit more information, wanted to know a little bit more, wanted to understand them more deeply, wanted the opportunity to share something else of ours, we could all ask one more question.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:15.039
And so if we could do that at the beginning, say every encounter, every moment I get with a person is an opportunity for learning.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:27.599
And each time that I go into that interaction, no matter what I'm expecting, and whatever I think the end of the conversation or the interaction is, I'm gonna take the chance to ask just one more question.
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:31.440
That could blow the doors wide open on a relationship.
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:38.079
Real healthy relationships aren't built by just avoiding all this hard stuff.
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:43.599
We can navigate our tension together and still come out whole on the other side.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:49.519
And there are ways to set up a relationship for success so that we can do it.
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:56.160
Again, I have heard stories where somebody says, I have been ghosted in the past.
00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:58.079
It's been deeply traumatic for me.
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:00.160
What are your hot takes on ghosting?
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.559
Can you promise me you'll never ghost?
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:10.400
And somebody says, ghosting is immature, ghosting, ghosts are weak and cowardly, da-da-da, like all of it, right?
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:13.279
And then that person ghosts.
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:23.920
So we can we can only have control of ourselves and do the best we can in the relationship and use what Julia just suggested within the relationship itself.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:30.960
I think that's such an empathetic perspective, though, as well, to say and to continue to remind ourselves.
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:36.640
We all have a lot of assumptions about what we would do in a particular situation.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:43.440
And very often that assumption leads us to judge someone who has done something that we think we would not do in a situation.
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:48.400
And remembering human beings are beautiful and surprising.
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:52.640
You also are beautiful and surprising and capable of surprising yourself.
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:57.839
And so that should serve as a little reminder of you probably don't know.
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:03.839
It's okay because I think you probably can't know what you would do in any given situation.
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:10.799
And that might also make you more compassionate, more thoughtful towards people who are in different situations from yours.
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:28.000
I know that there are listeners and viewers who are hearing all of what we're saying, they're nodding along, but they're maybe nervous because they're afraid that speaking up is gonna drive people away.
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:37.279
And I have to admit that includes me just a smidge because I am a people pleaser in active recovery.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:44.880
So, what are some small steps someone can take to start sharing more from a place of authenticity?
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:51.599
What a beautiful question, a beautiful way um into it.
00:29:51.599 --> 00:30:05.200
I think the first is um to look around um for um evidence and examples of the opposite of what you're worried about.
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:17.839
So people say, you know, if I disagree a lot or I'm assertive about what I think or incredibly specific about what I need, I will alienate and drive people away.
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:43.440
And to take it to maybe a more neutral context for a moment, I'd say take a look around your workplace because there will be someone like in your workplace, in your community, like in an organization that you're involved with, who is like that, like who always says like exactly what they think, who you might say is really disagreeable or who's really challenging to people.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:46.480
And you may say, I don't admire that um at all.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:49.279
But often that person doesn't alienate people.
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:58.799
If that person is well-intentioned and committed, people are very often relieved that that person exists, um, happy for their constructive challenge.
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:13.039
I'm not saying you need to model that person, but I'm saying the existence of that person in your life can serve as a reminder that simply disagreeing um isn't necessarily a recipe to alienate people.
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:17.839
Because you also don't know really precisely what they think.
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:22.960
Yeah, you're very worried about what you think and share it with them, but you often haven't heard exactly what they think.
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:25.279
So that's the first part for me.
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:30.319
The second is a lesson that I learn and continue to learn from my husband.
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:35.680
Um, and he says all the time that awkwardness is asymmetric.
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:37.759
Awkwardness is asymmetric.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:42.880
It is not going to be the same experience for you as for me.
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:54.319
And the set of things that I might find really awkward, um, might find really challenging, uh, very big deals in my mind, very extreme in my mind.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:59.039
But it is totally possible they're not awkward at all for the other person.
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:16.319
Um, the example that I often think about is um, you know, very like senior or busy people in an organization or out in the world who you might want to ask for their time or their advice or a favor.
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:25.519
And that can be a really stressful thing to do because you think, um, well, what if they like reject me and then I might feel terrible about that?
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:29.440
But part of you is also thinking they might feel terrible about that.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:31.920
Probably not.
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:33.680
Like they reject things all the time.
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:35.839
For them, that's actually a pretty normal encounter.
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.000
They're not mad at you for asking.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.599
They're very often not mad at themselves for rejecting you.
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:48.799
And even if you get rejected, you are exactly where you started, plus with maybe a little bit more knowledge.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:52.319
So it is the awkwardness is asymmetric.
00:32:52.319 --> 00:33:08.400
Um, a good example in my own life is fairly frequently, like every year, um, several people in my life will ask if I will write a letter of recommendation for them to go to graduate school.
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:15.519
This takes time, it's a lot of effort, um, it's a lot of work, they know that um when they are asking.
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:20.000
It is a privilege and an honor for me to be asked.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:27.920
But I can tell you can tell every single time when people ask that they're very nervous to ask because they know it is an imposition.
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:33.920
I imagine on some level they think that you might say no, like the relationship is important to them.
00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:37.279
But for so for them, it is a very awkward encounter.
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:42.559
And for me, not only is it not an awkward encounter, I'm so happy that they asked.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:52.480
If they didn't ask because they thought they might be bothering me, or because they thought I might say no, or because they thought we weren't close enough.
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:57.440
That would actually be very upsetting for me if I eventually found out about it.
00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:17.760
And the reason that um I like really embrace this advice, I think my husband is so wise on this point, is you can't really know where the awkwardness lies, but there is a really good chance that the um what is feels initially awkward to you is not going to feel awkward to the other person.
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:21.199
This is the faulty effective forecasting error in action.
00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:35.599
Uh, Daniel Kahneman, one of the world's like great psychologists, um the first psychologist to win the Nobel Prize in economics, says nothing is important as you is as important as you think it is while you are thinking about it.
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:39.920
Nothing is as important as you think it is while you are thinking about it.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:43.199
And I always add to that, including yourself.
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:47.199
Like other people are just not thinking about you as much as you are.
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:53.199
And that I think should be an unbelievably freeing experience for us.
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:55.920
Yeah, that's liberating to hear.
00:34:55.920 --> 00:35:10.480
And I think also sharing your truth and being your authentic self and self-expression is the highest and best thing we can do for ourselves, our spirit, and our lives.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:12.400
And your voice matters.
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:13.679
It's really important.
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:19.840
I encourage you, whoever's listening, watching, to speak up today.
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:27.679
Say something that you maybe have been holding close to your heart that you've been shy about, but maybe tells one of your friends.
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:31.679
Just, I think it's important to be seen and heard.
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:38.719
And so if there's something that you're afraid to do, this is me nudging you to take that step and do it.
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:40.639
Oh, 100%.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:41.760
Yes.
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:43.119
Um, do it.
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:47.599
Do not underestimate what a service it is to the world to be interesting.
00:35:47.599 --> 00:36:01.840
I think some of the greatest people in my life, I continuously think to myself, in the back of my mind, not out loud, you are a like very strange person.
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:04.960
And I cannot wait to know you more.
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:21.599
Um, or I find nothing about your lifestyle is aspirational to me, or you are just such a fanatical obsession with something that I think is the unbelievably boring.
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:24.079
But I love how much you love it.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:30.800
Like, don't underestimate how interesting people will find the fact that you are interested in something.
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:33.519
It's great to be weird.
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:35.199
It's great to be weird.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:36.800
I'm definitely not normal.
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:38.159
And I'm proud of it.
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:39.679
None of us are.
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:40.559
Yeah.
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:44.559
Um, I want to make sure that the listeners can keep learning from you.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:48.960
And I know you recently released your book, How Change Really Works.
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:51.519
I just started listening to that as an audiobook.
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:52.719
I got it from my library.
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:59.039
So could you tell us a bit about the heart behind it and what inspired you to co-write it?
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:00.480
100%.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:20.960
So how change really works basically tries to bring all the behavioral science that you really need to get started and making positive change, especially with other people, but it could also be like for yourself or for something else in your community, in your life, in society at work.
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:25.440
What is the science that you really need to make positive change?
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:40.639
The heart behind it for us was there is so much wonderful wisdom and knowledge from behavioral scientists all over the world, in academia, in research institutions, in companies, in communities.
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:42.480
And it is hard to access.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:53.119
And I constantly thought that people deserved really good entry points into tools that could make a difference for them and help them make a better difference for other people.
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:54.880
And so that's what we try to do.
00:37:54.880 --> 00:38:11.519
We make take that science, distill it into seven principles of positive change, and also tell the stories of extraordinary individuals from all over the world and all walks of life who've successfully applied those principles in making change and transition.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:21.440
Um, and one of the most fun things about it for me has been that you never know what people will take from a book and you can't control it.
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:27.280
It's just out in the world, and you hope that it will be of service to people.
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:42.559
And hearing from people, I had a conversation with my um the kids about how we actually in this family do a better job of like remembering that we are all high agency.
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:47.039
Or I used it as I was running for city council.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:39:00.960
But the best is um I had made a joke early on that I was like, this gift, it's like this book, it's great for any situations, like weddings, birthdays, like bar mitzvahs, new year.
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:06.159
You can give it to anyone because all of us like we're all trying to improve.
00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:13.199
Um, and someone said to me, uh, oh, it is my wedding anniversary uh tonight.
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:15.280
And I said, take a copy of the book.
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:17.199
Like I think your spouse will love it.
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:22.960
And he said, You think I should show up to my wedding anniversary with a book called How Change Really Works?
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:25.920
And you think this is gonna end well for me?
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:27.599
I paused like, okay.
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:36.800
I mean, you should probably at least get something else, because that does feel quite a confrontational like start um to the anniversary celebration.
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:41.039
But anyway, long story long, um, he ended up doing that.
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:53.840
And I think the idea of saying, like, it actually ended up being really positive, by the way, they remain married, in case any of your listeners um were wondering, saying, like, we are capable of like profound change and transformation.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:57.199
We are capable of becoming what we're meant to be.
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:01.360
And there's a lot of science and a lot of wisdom that can help us do that.
00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:02.800
I love it.
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:11.119
Is there anything else you'd like to share today, just regarding our conversation or something else completely?
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:34.079
I hope that people um can continue um to remember that um even as we wish perhaps a relationship was different, or we wish that someone else um was different, that should actually give us a lot of hope and optimism.
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:45.360
And the reason I say that is it's a reminder that you believe that change is possible and that you believe that you are capable of change and growth and evolution.
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:58.400
Um and that while it can be uncertain and scary to change, you're acknowledging um in your heart that in order to improve, we have to change.
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:10.079
And one of the best possible things that can happen to all of us is to be able to change in collaboration with someone else or to change in the service of someone else.
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:16.000
And that those are actually ways of becoming who we like really for ourselves were meant to be.
00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:21.119
Those are profound insights, they're great.
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:26.079
How can listeners do a deep dive into your work and get the book?
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:28.400
What's the best place for them to buy it?
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:32.639
Well, you are welcome to visit how changerallyworks.com.
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:35.440
It's also available everywhere the books are sold.
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:42.079
And I hope that you will connect with me personally and the author team on LinkedIn, Instagram, and X.
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:43.760
Perfect.
00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:47.519
Thank you so much for joining me today.
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:52.400
You've shared so many brilliant, actionable takeaways here for the audience.
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:54.559
So I'm I'm deeply grateful.
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:56.800
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:58.000
My pleasure.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:08.239
And for everyone else, if this conversation brought you some clarity, the biggest compliment that you can give me is to leave a quick review or drop a comment below.
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:12.239
It helps this show find the exact people who need to hear it today.
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.199
And you can also follow me at Coping with Ghosting.
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:19.360
I have a free Coping with Ghosting Facebook group.
00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:22.320
All the links for everything are in the show notes.
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:31.039
So finally remember: no matter what you're facing, you're not alone and you're worthy of care and connection.
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:33.360
You deserve the best.