Psychedelic Integration: Grounding Ego Death and Life After the Trip

WEBVTT
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This is a podcast called Breaking Down, where we dive into specific therapy styles or theories you may or may not have heard of.
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There's three parts.
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You'll learn theory, hear a demonstration, and we break it all down in the end.
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Today's episode is a little bit different.
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We are learning about the psychedelic integration process after a ketamine-assisted therapy session.
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All right, hello.
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Welcome to Breaking Down.
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I am Jeff Gunther, licensed professional counselor.
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I'm here with Dr.
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Lindsay Larner, licensed clinical psychologist and psilocybin facilitator.
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And we have a special guest, which is you saw.
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Yeah.
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Thank you for being here.
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So today's a special episode.
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Allie sat for me for some ketamine sessions, and we are going to be doing my psychedelic integration today and just talking a bit more about ketamine and psilocybin a little bit.
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Yeah.
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And the applications.
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Awesome.
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Looking forward to it.
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How would you explain psychedelic therapies and integration to someone who has never heard of it before?
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So psychedelic therapy is a therapeutic approach that weaves together psychedelic medicines like ketamine, psilocybin, MDMA, and intentional therapeutic support to help people access healing, insight, and meaningful change.
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When we talk about integration, that is the process of incorporating lessons and extraordinary experiences that come up in a psychedelic session into our day-to-day, more ordinary lives.
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There's a book titled After the Ecstasy of the Laundry.
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I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's a great title.
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And it's it's written about meditation, but the principle is the same.
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We may have touched into some timeless expansive consciousness.
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We may have dissolved into the oneness of the universe.
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And then we go home to the very, very human responsibilities of caring for human constructed activities, paying bills, doing laundry, checking email.
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They're all still there.
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And how we integrate those two very different realities into our one being.
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And then moving forward, how do we use those experiences to make meaningful change in the ways that we're seeking in our lives?
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That was a very perfect and beautiful explanation of everything that's happening right now.
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Are you sitting with the client while they're having their experience?
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Are they just seeking you after they go have it on their own?
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I'm in the office with them the whole time.
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Yeah.
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You're even administering the medicine.
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I'm administering the medicine and then hearing all the oohs and the ahs and the wow and all the groomies saying, You're being a silly goose.
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Yeah.
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So I guess it depends though, like with ketamine, like how long is that session going to an hour and a half or so of of the actual medicine time, but um they're in the office for two and a half hours.
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Okay.
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So there's an integration right afterwards.
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And then there's There's a little preparation beforehand and a little integration afterwards as well.
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Okay.
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And then is there more integration later?
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Like a week later and okay.
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Several days to a week, ideally within a week.
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Um yeah, we've been doing it a little differently because uh Lindsay's well resourced in that area too.
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So but um but typically that's how we do it.
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Do you get bored when they're having their like the medicine go through their body or very no, I really don't, yeah.
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Cause it's it's just you can feel it in the room, you know.
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There's something very special about being there.
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I mean, you know, I can't say I've never been bored, but honesty.
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I mean, you're kind of like you're hanging back though, right?
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You're not there's not much, you're not doing much.
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No, although there are often times where people need support, they want their hands held handheld or um, yeah, yeah, just kind of breathing through some of the challenging pieces is definitely a time when I will step in if that's welcome.
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So I feel like ketamine too, rather than psilocybin.
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I think people lay there quite a bit more.
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Yeah, they're just sort of like experiencing things or maybe saying a little something here and there.
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Yes.
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Whereas psilocybin can be quite active.
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It really can.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I've never had anybody really like get up and move around with uh ketamine, whereas that can definitely happen with psilocybin, just needing to shake it out a little bit more.
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Yeah.
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And do you also have experience with MDMA?
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I don't.
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No, not as well.
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I feel like those people would be real chatty.
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Yeah, and dancey and all kinds of things.
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Yes.
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Lovey.
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Yeah, lots more.
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I thought it's yeah, that I have not been trained in MDMA.
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I would like to.
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But yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So what are like the core ideas or principles behind your approach?
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Yeah, so psychedelics are really helpful for when we're stuck in a rut, when we need to shake things up and look at things from a new angle.
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Um, we have a part of our brain called the default mode network.
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It's a part of our brain that operates when we're daydreaming and is associated with our automatic, often unconscious beliefs about who we are, our role in the world, and what is possible in our lives.
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So it's kind of our default way of being.
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And psychedelics turn down the volume on this part of our brain and increases what we call crosstalk.
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So parts of our brain that don't normally communicate have a chance to do so when we're in the psychedelic space.
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So we often interpret circumstances in our lives that confirm these hidden beliefs.
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So if you think about um you're waiting in line and somebody cuts you off, and you might interpret that as being they don't respect me or I'm invisible or that kind of a thing, if that confirms your belief about who you are in the world and um, and and psychedelics can help turn down the volume in a way on the default mode network, and then we get to experience parts of ourselves that we don't normally that don't normally have a voice.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And brains take a lot of energy.
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We like to predict based on the past so that less energy is expended on having to see things in new ways.
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And it's safer to not have to reevaluate if a tiger is safe or not every single time you see it.
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It's that there's a real evolutionary purpose with that.
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So but it doesn't always serve our long-term goals.
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Yeah.
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Uh can so can like psychedelic therapies help you create a new default for your default?
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Um, it's not so much that the default, I think we're in many ways that's part of who our core identity is and is formed that way, but we can access parts of ourselves that are sort of like more evolved in a way and help to override that and and talk ourselves around the ways that we may have assumed that we are in the world, but are not necessarily wanting to be moving forward.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Would you agree with that?
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, I was just thinking about how that's been showing up.
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Uh the lion example is really funny.
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I get really like bent out of shape in traffic.
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Yeah.
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And I've noticed myself just being more I'm like the dude or something now.
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I'm like, hey man, they need to get like they need to get somewhere faster than me.
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It's all it's all good.
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I'll get there.
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I'm like, who am I right now?
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Yeah.
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Last week we hung out and you were talking about things that you usually get really upset about or angry about.
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And I was like, who are you?
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I don't like that.
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I don't like this.
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I like the angry version of you.
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I still get angry.
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Um, but it it feels different.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It feels like there's a new way to explore things um, maybe that are a bit softer or more gracious of like human behavior and humankind or something.
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I love that.
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Yeah.
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Well, and you bring up a really good point, Jeff, that you know, the people around us can also have um some difficulty with who we are becoming because we're sort of used to people being a certain way, and it can it takes it's like putting a you know, a now round peg into a round hole as opposed to a square peg into the round hole, and it just doesn't always fit in the same way, and people have to adjust around us.
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So it's another element of integration that I think is important to consider.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think my family thinks I'm pretty wacky.
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Yeah.
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As they should.
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They're like, why do you keep sending us these long texts of love and compassion?
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Stop loving us so much.
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It's weirding me out, man.
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Um okay.
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What kind of problems or challenges would you say um psychedelic or psychedelic integration um is suited or best suited for?
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So I think that answer depends on the context.
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So traditionally, in indigenous use, psychedelics were used for healing and for rites of passage and communing with the non-human world.
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And then the context which we're using them in in a more clinical setting, they're commonly thought of as being useful for depression or anxiety, trauma, obsessive thoughts, existential distress, and even addiction.
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Um, ketamine is used off-label for all of these things.
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And in Oregon, we can use psilocybin for non-medical reasons as well.
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So for self-exploration or growth.
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So you don't need a particular diagnosis in order to obtain psilocybin services here.
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Um, it can be really helpful for life transitions for grief, personal growth, self-exploration, and general meaning making of what this crazy life we're living is about.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I feel like it has a lot of end-of-life applications too, which I mean really encompasses everything you just said.
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Um, but yeah, I was just talking about it um with a researcher yesterday saying that, you know, all these experiences are really good practice for dying.
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They are.
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Yeah.
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They really are.
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It sounds morbid, but it does in some circles, but but it's true.
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It's true because you're letting go of control and just being with whatever comes up and with whatever arises, and the more that you can do that, the more beautiful of an experience you can have.
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Yeah, that surrender piece is so important.
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I have like a really I don't know, a specific belief system about like mushrooms versus ketamine.
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This is just totally made up.
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Yeah.
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But I think maybe other people might have it.
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And I'm wondering if you've ever heard it before, or if you've ever heard it before.
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Um, where it's just like if somebody, if like Lindsay is telling me about an experience that she had on like psilocybin and mushrooms, I'm just like, ooh, I'm taking this very seriously.
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It's organic, it comes from the earth.
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But if you're telling me about something like ketamine, I'm like, okay, create it in a lab.
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Yeah.
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Like I'm like, I'm not believing.
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I'm just like, that is just a drug trip that's crazy.
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But like mushrooms are alive and telling you something.
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Yes.
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Does does like ours is like a psilocybin trip more legit than like a ketamine trip?
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You know, it's interesting that you brought that up because after my very first ketamine session, I went to the person that was the doctor on staff, and I was like, where is the spirit of ketamine?
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Like, what you know, like, yeah, like and I so I understand that I'm a naturopath, like I'm a I'm an herbalist at heart, you know, and so I very much relate to that.
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I don't have a good answer for that, other than I just see that it and feel that it works in the same way.
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And there's something, maybe it's more like like you might think of a rock or a mineral or something like that, that's kind of like doesn't have the same sort of life force that we associate with plants and living matter, but still has some energetic healing properties that are undeniable.
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Um, they it actually ketamine does it has been isolated in nature in um a fungus, I think it is, or a lichen or something like that.
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It has anti-helminth properties, so it actually kills worms, and they've used it in veterinary medicine for that.
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Um so it's it is naturally occurring.
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Ketamine is found in nature, so that's always reassuring to me.
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That makes a little more valid.
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Yeah.
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I I mean, I I was a skeptic too before going, I was like, oh, it's not gonna compare.
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And it doesn't really, it it compares in some ways, but it also doesn't.
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And sure.
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Um, but I have been blown away at how deep I went.
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To me, they're all portals to something deeper, and I'll just leave it at that.
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Um yeah.
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The whys are harder to get to, but the the hows or the the fact of them is really true.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So you you talked about a lot of situations that it could be suited for.
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What are situations where it's like very much not suited for?
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Yeah.
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So if somebody doesn't have stability in their nervous system, especially, then these experiences are often not helpful and can also cause harm for sure.
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Um, shaking the foundation of someone's worldview or self-concept, their cosmology, even when they don't have basic stability in their lives or in their nervous system can be harmful.
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Um, also if their sense of self is already too flexible, like in schizophrenia, someone like that might not be a good candidate.
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Um, psychedelics are inherently destabilizing in some way, and that's part of what makes them work.
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But we want to make sure that people have a foundation and a context in which to incorporate that before we shake things up too much.
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Makes sense.
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Yeah.
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There's certain medications that are contraindicated for oh, because they get in the way of like experience.
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Yeah, or they can be risky if you know they could cause serotonin syndrome or like an organ we can't um prescribe or use psilocybin with people with um that are taking lithium within the last 30 days, things like that.
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So there's certain mental health conditions that make it more risky.
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Yeah.
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Although I thought it found it interesting that um people who have a bipolar diagnosis can use ketamine.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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More so it's better suited in the depressed state.
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Right.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Um, but psilocybin, um, most people sort of say, yeah.
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No.
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Yeah, maybe not.
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So yeah, that is interesting.
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Um, what drew you to this kind of work?
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It's your story.
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Yeah.
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So I have a pretty cliche first experience with mushrooms.
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I took them for the first time when I was 15 at a dead show.
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And amazing.
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I know.
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I um I dabbled in very psychedelics throughout my teens and twenties, but my interest eventually waned because I was having enough unpleasant experiences, as many as pleasant ones.
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And looking back, I think it was really about the environment that I was in and the setting that we talk about.
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Um, I had a number of times where I was out and about and I would get overstimulated and you know, or paranoid that the cops were coming or something like that.
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And then also had a couple of experiences where I would lie in bed or in a more quiet and contained environment.
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And those always went better for me.
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And so I think that was kind of like the seed of the facilitation that I was planted back then.
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Um and eventually my use faded as I got older and went to medical school, became a mom.
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Um, and then throughout my career as a naturopathic doctor, I've worked with uh numerous people with complex chronic illness.
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And it's become clear to me over time that almost without exception, many of them had traumatic events in their past that often preceded the onset of their symptoms or their disease.
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And if there wasn't a capital T trauma, almost all of us have little T trauma, those experiences that might be more like benign neglect or being teased about our appearance or not feeling like we belong, or just not being allowed to be who we are as our authentic selves.
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And psychedelics like psilocybin and ketamine allow us to access those deeper aspects of our being and give us a chance to examine those parts of ourselves and have compassion for ourselves and for others in our lives and to reenvision ourselves away from those patterns for a time.
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So it felt like the perfect blend of naturopathic medicine, kind of getting to the root cause of what um people's existential distress and disease is about.
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So yeah, just light things like that.
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Light things, yes.
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.279
Yeah, and it cuts it, it cuts the bullshit for me.
00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:17.360
And I love that about it all.
00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:20.559
It's really like that's where I yeah, that's what feeds me.
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:27.360
So yeah, and that's what I love about people and you know our community of facilitators and psychonauts and stuff too is it's no bull.
00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:32.799
You like yeah, walk up to some you've never never met before, and within five minutes you're like, what do you think the meaning of that?
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.120
It's like amazing that there's no bullshit.
00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:36.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:37.200
I love that.
00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:39.679
Yeah, it sounds really heavy.
00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:40.799
Heavy and beautiful.
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:41.600
It's beautiful.
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:42.799
I just don't feel heavy now.
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:44.159
No, it feels no feels deep.
00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:45.039
It feels deep, but not.
00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:52.799
What do you feel like is like the most misunderstood aspect of like psychedelic therapy and integration?
00:15:53.440 --> 00:16:07.360
I think one of the biggest misconceptions about psychedelics is the one and done approach, meaning that people think that if they have one psychedelic journey and they have a big insight or epiphany about what they're working with that now they're done, that's all they have to do, and they seek that out.
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:21.279
Um, and it can feel true even in the days and weeks after a journey, but unless there's really a focus on integration, um, then it's easy to revert back to old habits and for those insights to still be there, but for life to look pretty similar to how it was before.
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:25.759
Um, and I think another misconception is a go big or go home mentality.
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:26.320
Oh, yeah.
00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:37.519
I've seen some really profound insights and big experiences at what would be considered small doses by a lot of standards, and there's just so much variability between people and their sensitivity to medicines.
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:40.960
And so people's nervous systems don't need more overwhelm.
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.679
And so I like to start low with people and work up from there.
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:44.159
Yeah.
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:44.559
Yeah.
00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:51.519
I think too, if you've had really big experiences before, sometimes then you don't need as much to really get there.
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:51.919
Yeah.
00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:53.600
You just sort of sink right in.
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:54.399
So yeah.
00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:54.799
Yeah.
00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:55.600
Yeah.
00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:06.480
Um, what is a key principle from psychedelic therapy is that people could apply in their daily lives even if they have never engaged in psychedelics themselves?
00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:15.279
Well, I think the techniques that we use in integration are available to all people, regardless of how, you know, if they've had a psychedelic experience or not.
00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:22.160
So, you know, present moment awareness and mindfulness is um their practices that are accessible and free.
00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:41.599
Um and just making a few small sustainable changes and shifting your identity to align with that desired change is um, you know, identifying with being an artist rather than just doing art or something like that, like just kind of like embodying that identity of the person that that um wants to be new and different.
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:42.000
Yeah.
00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:43.359
Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:48.480
Are there any criticisms about the approach that you actually like agree with?
00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:50.799
Hmm, that's a good question.
00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:51.759
No.
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:52.480
No.
00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:55.920
I can't think of one right out of the water.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:56.319
Yeah.
00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.960
Lindsay, are there any criticisms that not that I can think of.
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:06.319
There are a lot of criticisms of it, and I really it's based out of fear, you know, fear and misunderstanding.
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:12.640
And, you know, I think we do hear the horror stories, and I even have my own horror stories, you know, but that does that doesn't stop me.
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:31.920
Um, so I'm trying to think of like common criticisms that I think that it's like sort of uh, you know, risky, or that it's a hippie, you know, sure hippie thing, we're just a bunch of hippies, which maybe we are, but um, you know, I think people don't take it seriously sometimes, or people feel threatened by it.
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:40.319
Um, I know a lot of people in the therapy community can feel very threatened because they, you know, you hear things like, it's like having 10 years of therapy in one day.
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:46.000
And for people that don't understand it, they're like, oh no, yeah, I'm out of a job, or like that can't be true.
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:48.640
Um so I don't know.
00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:50.079
I'll revise my answer.
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.519
I think like the spiritual bypassing piece is is a valid complaint.
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:55.599
So or you know, criticism.
00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:03.200
Um I think that it's easy for people to just continue to seek after the medicine too and not really do the integration work.
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:13.440
And and we certainly know that there's plenty of people in higher positions in our society that have done plenty of psychedelics and are not necessarily better people for it.
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:19.279
So I think that that can be um yeah, that's a valid risk and concern.
00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:20.720
Yeah, I think so.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:22.480
Okay, last question.
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:29.839
If you could rebrand this or maybe call it something different or change something about it, just change something about it.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:37.759
Well, I think certainly accessibility is a big thing that I would change of just making it less about I mean, how big are we talking?
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.920
Like, can we talk about like not, you know, I would rather not charge for it.
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:47.599
I would rather have all of my needs met and have ever everybody else's needs met and be able to like have people have healing.
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:50.640
But that's you know, that's because it's a pretty pricey therapy.
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:52.240
Yeah.
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:53.039
Yeah, it is.
00:19:53.200 --> 00:20:00.720
And it's I think especially with psilocybin, there are a lot of inherent costs in doing business in Oregon that are in the way.
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:14.400
And I actually one thing that I think is interesting, I read recently about um the the Oregon model, how because we had decriminalization, like that measure 111, I think, happened at the same time as measure 110.
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:17.200
We got this like that was an okay model.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:28.000
But then when we went from having legalized psilocybin, but then everything else was decriminalized outside of that, it became only possible for people that could afford to pay those extra fees.
00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:31.599
And then everybody else was like eligible to go to jail, kind of a thing from it.
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:38.240
Whereas at least in places like Colorado, there is a gift gather-grow option and things like that.
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:44.880
And so it makes it available to people that can't afford or don't want to have, you know, a service center type of experience.
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:54.880
Um, so that's probably where I would go with it, is just making it accept more accessible to people that um that can't afford to pay the higher fees.
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:55.359
Yeah.
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:55.599
Yeah.
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:08.799
I think too, as we're thinking about accessibility and scaling up and as the legal, you know, status changes of certain medicines, you know, my big fear is that it scales up in a way where people just show up, they take the medicine, they're sent on their merry way.
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:10.960
It's a very Western model.
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:28.960
And, you know, I'm just thinking about how valuable it's been to actually have someone sitting with me, holding my hand, helping prepare me for my journey, someone to talk to afterwards and check in with, and like how different of a process that is than if I just went into a clinic, sprayed some ketamine up my nose, and just went on my way.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:29.279
Yeah.
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:35.039
So um that's my my fear is as we scale up, and I know to some degree that's gonna happen.
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:36.240
Um yeah.
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.519
Yeah, and and psychedelics are non-specific amplifiers.
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:47.519
So whatever you're working with can be get bigger, and if it's not good stuff, then that can get, you know, more deeply wired into your nervous system.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:50.880
And so having support is so important with it.
00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.519
And and it doesn't have to look a particular way.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:59.759
I think there's definitely, you know, criticism about the sort of especially like the two people holding hands, like staring at you.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.240
Kind of model that we see in the photos.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:03.680
Like that's kind of weird, you know?
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:04.240
Yeah.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:10.880
Um, so but it's there having yeah, having the preparation and the integration support is so important.
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:11.200
Yeah.
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:11.440
Yeah.
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:13.599
Thank you for answering all those questions.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:14.319
Yeah, thanks.
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:14.799
Yeah.
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:15.519
Okay.
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:20.160
Hi, Lindsay.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:20.720
Hi.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:21.359
Hi.
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.960
I'd love to start by hearing about how things have been landing for you.
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:29.359
We've had a few sessions together and you had two in a different place.
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:33.039
So I just love to hear about how things have been landing the last few days.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.920
Um, yeah, things are landing well.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:44.720
I think this time was uh, you know, maybe landing was a little bit harder because I had to work the next day and my other sessions I really like took some time off.
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:52.319
Um so it felt like that thing you were talking about before where it's like we tried to like rush back into real life.
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:57.599
Um, but I did notice sort of my pace slowed down and I felt more present.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:04.400
And um, I could actually really feel like after my work day the day after our last session, I was like, oh, why did I do that?
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:06.079
I was it's over.
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:08.640
Yeah, and I'm glad it's over because I'm just really tired.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.359
So I just let myself like really rest after that.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:12.000
Yeah.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:16.319
And then yesterday I had some meetings with people, but they were all really fun and nice.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:17.599
So oh good.
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:18.079
Yeah.
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:19.440
And how has your sleep been?
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:20.319
It's good.
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:20.880
Is it?
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:22.319
Yeah, my sleep is really good.
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:28.240
Normally, the day of my session, my sleep is not so good, but I like I conked out that night.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.359
Yeah, so it's not the cat, it's the Zofran.
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:32.480
Oh, you think so?
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:33.519
The Zofran.
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:39.359
Yeah, and luckily it was just for like a day this time, but um, my body really does not like that.
00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:44.160
Oh Zofran, but it feels worth it to not, you know, out of the nausea, not be nauseous.
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:46.400
So yeah, yeah.
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:48.640
And how did you spend the rest of your day?
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.880
Um that day, I just came home and I rested.
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:57.519
Um, I did a little bit of writing, um, and then it was my birthday.
00:23:57.599 --> 00:23:58.880
So that's right, yeah.
00:23:59.200 --> 00:23:59.440
Yeah.
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:06.720
So we went out for um dinner that night, and um it was funny because it'd been several hours since my session.
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:07.119
Yeah.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:10.079
Like my death perception is always a little off afterwards.
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:13.680
And I went to pour a glass of water for myself and I was like, I've got it.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.400
And I just like split it all over the table.
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:24.319
So that was like that was funny, but also, you know, the other things are so we went for a walk and we walked past the place that I gave birth to my daughter.
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:26.799
And like it was just really magical.
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:37.200
I felt really connected to my partner and just to the world, and even like my connections with the you know, person that was waiting on us, you know, at the restaurant were just so wonderful.
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:42.160
So yeah, so it just felt really nice to take that day of just rest and connection.
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:43.039
Yeah.
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:47.759
Yeah, that reminds me of um the image that you had of yourself in the bassinet.
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:49.440
Which one?
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:52.160
Oh, that day of that bassinet.
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:54.079
I guess I was in a bathtub the other time.
00:24:54.160 --> 00:25:05.359
But yeah, that's how my session started was um me in a bassinet, and I had all of the mothers that have ever been surrounding me, and they just said happy birthday, baby.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:07.519
It just felt really special.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:11.839
And it was a really beautiful way to like make my way into our session.
00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:12.799
Yeah.
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:13.519
Yeah.
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:14.319
Yeah.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:18.400
Um, well, that could be a good place for us to start is with that.
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:19.359
Yeah.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:34.160
So one of the um things that I'd like to do is to um have you tap back into that in your body and see what like what that feels like, and then also kind of getting to the waterfall piece that we'll get to in a minute.
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:34.799
Yeah.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:38.559
Um but have yeah, finding the that sensation in your body.
00:25:38.720 --> 00:26:03.440
So if you want to just start to take some nice slow deep breaths in and out and just uh tuning back into that image of being surrounded by all of the mothers and welcoming you and your incarnation, saying, happy birthday baby.
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:04.480
Yeah.
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:05.680
Yeah.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.240
And just wondering, do you feel that sensation in your body anywhere?
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:11.440
I do.
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:21.599
There's a lot of expansiveness in my heart, um, and just this feeling of, you know, uh all of my sessions were very womb-like.
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:26.880
I was always sort of like at the bottom of this womb of some sort.
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:32.079
And this was no different where I was like, oh, I'm a be, you know, I'm a baby being cared for.
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:35.200
And um so there's some safety there.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:41.839
There's safety and just love, and uh that was one of the things I wrote on my journal.
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:43.759
Like, love is not even a good enough word.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:49.599
Like, if there was a term for the lovest term for love there ever was, like that would be the term.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.720
Yeah, I just feel that, and that's that is what I'm carrying with me.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:27:11.200
Um, is that like without a shadow of a doubt, like I am loved beyond measure, and I am love, and um that love is so full that it just expands outward in every direction without even trying.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:13.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:17.519
And there was that image of like giving the giving and receiving of that of the waterfall too.
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:18.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:19.440
Yeah.
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:25.359
Do you when you think about it or feel that in your body, is there a color or shape associated with it?
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:29.200
Um, well, the shapes are funny.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:32.160
Multi-visited.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.279
I forgot which dimension I said, but I was like 12, I think.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:36.480
The 12th dimension.
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:49.839
Um yeah, so in the 12th dimension, um, shapes don't make any sense, and things come from all sorts of angles that I could never describe in a way that someone who hadn't been on this dimension could understand.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:59.680
Um, but in some ways I can touch on that, and it's like it's coming from every single direction, uh, even directions we've never considered before.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:05.839
Um and it's all it's love, it's just pure consciousness and pure love.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:06.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:08.079
Yeah.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.039
Um is there a color of that consciousness in love?
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.920
Um, it's usually like a bluish white, and that's how I perceive Mother Universe too.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.200
That's how I know I'm touching on it.
00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:21.279
It's like I go into a place of pure, it's almost like a blue-tinted white.
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.359
I'm aware of it right now as I'm talking about it.
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:24.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:29.920
Yeah, so that sounds like you can really feel that in your heart and a sense of safety.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:37.359
And yeah, and it's even beyond, even right now, it's like um ego death is like very close for me right now.
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:43.119
And even as I'm like closing my eyes, I'm just like just aware of this pure consciousness.
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:44.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.839
When you say ego death, what does it say more about that so people understand?
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.599
Yeah, well, it's hard to describe it if you haven't experienced it, I think.
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:57.200
Um, but like Lindsay Lindsay was just a meat sack.
00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:07.920
Lindsay was a meat sack having a human experience, and um uh all semblance of me as like this separate person was gone.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:11.359
I was everything and nothing at all at the same time.
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:19.440
Um and I was able to tap into just pure consciousness and it it was all good, I guess.
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:21.279
Good's maybe not the right word.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:22.960
It just was, is what it is.
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:23.920
It was what it was.
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:24.799
Like, yeah.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:32.240
Um and for me, that's you know, it was both scary uh and also very beautiful at the same time.
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:37.279
Um, because we sort of cling on to this like human experience as this one person or whatever.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:37.759
Right.
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:51.759
Um, but if you can like hang with it and um be with that, I I think uh it's actually for me at least it's felt very healing and soothing to know that this isn't this isn't all.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:52.640
Right, yeah.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:57.359
Well, and that's where it comes in like with ex uh end of life existential distress too, right?
00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:59.680
Just that dissolving and yeah, yeah.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:02.079
Yeah, beautiful.
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:13.119
And if you were to um like attach a phrase to that, like a mantra or an affirmation, what what would what would the words be?
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:17.359
Um to the ego death part?
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:27.759
No, to that feeling of of the the love and the the blue white light and that expansive feeling that encompasses everything.
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:30.799
Probably just something simple like I am love.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:32.559
We're all love.
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:33.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:34.480
I am love.
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:39.279
We are all sounds cheesy and hippy-dippy, but I know love is authors.
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:43.200
Yeah, yeah, that's where those cliches come from.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:44.480
Yeah, the truth.
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:45.920
Yes, yeah.
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.240
Yeah, wonderful.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:31:03.680
And um so in kind of bringing it more back to the like practical level, are there what practices have you found that you enjoy that might help you tap back into that?
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:05.920
You mentioned the w water being a big theme.
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:07.519
Yeah, water is a big theme.
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:12.079
Um, I've definitely like taken baths or spent some time in the shower.
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:17.119
Um uh when my friend and mentor comes back, we're gonna go do some flotation.
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:23.680
Um, so yeah, water, um, being by the water, we're going to the uh coast on tomorrow tomorrow.
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.440
Actually, um I really like to fly kites by the water.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:28.880
That's one of my favorite activities.
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:33.680
Uh but you know, art, um, that really helped me.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:42.799
Uh, I've been a little busy the last couple days, but when I was at the retreat um the day after my really big session there, I was just drawing like a spiral in my notebook.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:45.599
And like for whatever reason that took me right back in.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:32:07.119
And I just spent like probably 45 minutes sobbing with my hand over my heart in the best way, not like in a sad way, in a way where I was so honored and humbled and grateful to be alive and to be uh in the roles that I am, and just like I just my my life felt like it was exactly where it was supposed to be in that moment.
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:12.079
And wow, yeah, I definitely want to do some more art today now that I have a little bit of time to do that.
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:12.640
Yeah.
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.640
Um, I think just talking about it with people that get it too is really helpful.
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:19.119
Um why do you think that is?
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:21.680
Um, because you don't have to say very much.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:25.759
Um, and people just sort of they're like, oh yeah.
00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:27.359
I know that.
00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:27.599
Yeah.
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:29.440
Lindsay was a meet sack there.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:31.519
That was like one of the first things I did.
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:34.400
I'm on a text chain with the women that I was at this retreat with.
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:41.839
And I was like, hey everybody, I did this, and all the waterfalls from the multiverse poured all of the love in the universe directly into my heart.
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:43.680
And they were like, right on.
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:45.759
Just to talk to people.
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:51.039
Um, and that's where integration, you know, there's integration circles and things that I think can be really helpful.
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:51.839
Yeah.
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:52.240
Yeah.
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:54.559
I'm wondering, do you want to share more about that image?
00:32:54.880 --> 00:33:08.000
There was a really beautiful image that you talked about with the rooms expanding and the ability to kind of yeah, negotiate that as I'm so Jeff will love this because I was like, Allie, we're camping.
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.759
He hates camping.
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:10.160
Oh.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:14.640
But like my experience kept forming these like rooms.
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:25.759
And um uh I think I was telling you um synagogues will have these rooms with expanding walls for the high holidays to accommodate all of the Jews that come in.
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:26.240
Yeah.
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:28.160
For just for the high holidays.
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:33.680
And it was sort of like that, like the walls kept expanding, and again, in all these different angles and directions.
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:42.400
And I had this feeling of um, oh my gosh, we're camping, where it's like I was camping under the stars, but I was camping from within the stars.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:43.680
Oh, that makes sense.
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:44.079
Okay.
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:52.799
And like I would breathe, the music would change, and the room would change shape to accommodate, and sometimes it would contract and sometimes it would expand.
00:33:53.039 --> 00:34:01.119
But there I was like with the entire universe in this room that I had created that had as much or as little space as I needed.
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:04.640
Um, so that felt really meaningful too.
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:09.760
Um, because sometimes I do need a lot of universal love because of whatever I'm going through.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:14.079
Sometimes I don't need that much at all, but I have the ability to open myself up to that.
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:14.559
Yeah.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:17.280
I almost immediately think about how do I give this away?
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:18.800
I'm always like, oh, this is amazing.
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:19.679
Who else can I tell this?
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:20.719
Like, who can I include?
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:21.280
Who can I?
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:25.440
And this session I was really like, why don't I just can I just like let myself have it?
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:26.079
Yes.
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:30.480
Um, and maybe it'll just naturally go where it needs to go for other people that need it.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:33.679
But right now I need this and I'm gonna let myself have it.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:34.559
Yeah.
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:42.000
Yeah, that was a big um, that was definitely a big shift, I think, because you had mentioned before that you had been like, yeah, wanting to kind of let it flow back out.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:45.119
And this was all about receiving on this particular session.
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:46.159
And yeah, yeah.
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.760
And what a beautiful gift for yourself for your birthday, too, to have that.
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:55.440
Yeah, and there's been sort of a push-pull too, um, with wanting to have my family be involved.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:58.400
It's like sometimes I'm like, why am I the only one that's doing the healing?
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:01.519
You know, in the system, like, come on, guys, come and join me.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:06.880
And um, so there's been a really gently unfolding of that where it's like, hey, I am doing the healing.
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.119
If you want to join me, great.
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:10.480
I'd love to meet you here.
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:13.360
And if not, you're you're on your own paths, and that's okay.
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:15.199
And I love you and accept you anyway.
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:19.360
And I'm gonna keep doing this really important, beautiful work.
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:20.000
Yeah.
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:20.480
Yeah.
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:26.639
And you mentioned just the kind of this circle that your family members were sort of around.
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:27.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:30.880
Yeah, there was like a circle of women that were all holding hands, right?
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:31.119
Yeah.
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:36.079
And then it's like, oh, my mom and my sister are on the field and they can see it.
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:36.320
Yeah.
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:40.480
They're not yet like in the circle, and the invitation's always here.
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:41.599
They can always join.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:45.280
I think I even said like maybe they're just even getting something from watching.
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:45.679
Yeah.
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:47.280
Um, but they're welcome to join.
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:47.840
Yes.
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:48.480
Anytime.
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:49.840
Or maybe they're in their own circle.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:50.559
I don't really know.
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:52.800
I just know that I'm in this circle and I love it.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:53.280
Yeah.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:53.920
Yeah.
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:54.400
Yeah.
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:55.519
I love that.
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:56.800
Yeah.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:59.360
So just kind of bringing it all back together.
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:22.639
So, in terms of um kind of bringing this into your day-to-day life more, the one thing that I like to recommend to people, and I don't know if you have a practice like this already, is to have like a meditation, like a random meditation bell kind of timer that goes off that you can um just at random times tap back into the messages and that feeling in your body that you just talked about and the affirmation too.
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:32.719
So there's apps that you can get that will at a random time be like ding! And you can be like, Mother Universe, blue light, uh, you know, and and repeat your mantra to yourself.
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:45.760
And it just helps to kind of bring back the you know, the monkey mind from wherever it is and that the like default mode network piece and just and tap back into the ways that you want to um reframe yourself.
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.960
Yeah, that's actually a really good suggestion for me because I'm very structured.
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:49.360
Uh-huh.
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:49.599
Okay.
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:49.920
Okay.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:54.960
Meditation occurs from seven to seven fifteen every morning, and then I go up and work out.
00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:57.280
So yeah, I think that could be cool too.
00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:02.159
Um, and I often, if I do take a moment during the day to just put my hand over my heart and look outside.
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:07.119
Like that, I'm always surprised at how restorative and nurturing something like that is.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:09.679
So that's actually a really good suggestion for me.
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:10.239
Yeah.
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:10.639
Yeah.
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:13.119
And you're so quick to tap back into that state too.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:17.360
So I think it would be really, I mean, you're yeah, it's just like potent right there.
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:20.159
It's just waiting to be asked and invited, right?
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:20.639
Absolutely.
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:21.199
Yeah.
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:21.679
Yeah.
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:32.719
And then the other thing I think would be that would be fun is to explore more around like myth and story for um like waterfalls and you know, things like that.
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:38.000
Just to kind of explore what the those, you know, deities are like.
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:39.360
Yeah, I like that.
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:46.400
I looked into whale sharks actually, because my grandmother a couple times now has come to me as a whale shark and I was like, that's so random.
00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:50.400
But I looked it up, and there's actually a lot of symbolism and mythology.
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:59.039
It really um ties into ancestors and being a gentle giant, which we talked about, having soft strength and fluidity.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:09.039
So, you know, so I do like this idea of like, how do I bring water and flow and mythology into my sort of day-to-day story I tell about myself?
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:17.440
And the flotation is a great idea too, and all of those very practical ways that you can also just surrender and let yourself feel that.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:18.800
Yeah, definitely.
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:20.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:24.639
Well, I look forward to hearing how it continues to evolve for you.
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:25.199
Yeah.
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:26.079
Yeah.
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:27.199
It's been such an honor.
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:27.599
Yeah.
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:27.920
Yeah.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:28.639
Thank you.
00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:37.039
Okay, that felt really special watching that little session, being here.
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:39.119
Um, just a fly on the wall.
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:45.199
Um, is that kind of a I don't know, a good representation of how an integration session goes?
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:46.639
How long does it last typically?
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:47.679
Usually it's longer.
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:52.880
This was a definitely an abbreviated version, um, kind of cut to the chase for the podcast.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:39:06.639
But um, but yeah, so there's a general structure of kind of reviewing what was um revealed in the session and then talking about embodiment and finding a home for that sensation in the body.
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:14.000
Um I always like to try to incorporate some sort of a cognitive piece too, with like the mantra or the affirmation.
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:15.840
I think that that can be helpful.
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:31.119
And um, and then more of like a skills-based stuff, like the play piece, you know, of kind of like, okay, how are we gonna bring this into your day-to-day life in like other ways, like art or or exercise or time in nature, things like that?
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:49.440
Yeah, that really came through of just like, okay, I see what you're doing here, just like how can we get Lindsay to like really integrate all this stuff and get her to like to remember it um throughout the day and create little practices for her to tap into to get into this state of mind or these memories or this this experience.
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:55.440
For you, Lindsay, was it was it easy to get back into that place and remember all this stuff?
00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:58.239
Does it feel hazy like a dream that's hard to remember?
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:00.320
Like, how are you able to tap into it?
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:02.719
Um, it felt pretty easy to tap into it.
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:06.880
I think what's nice is that you know, Ellie can fill in some of the missing pieces.
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:12.000
Like she reminded me of, I was like, oh yeah, that was like a really big thing that I didn't write down afterwards.
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:20.880
Um uh so um yeah, I think you know, having the prompted remembering pieces too, I was like, oh yeah, that's you know, that's great.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:24.159
So um, but yeah, it felt pretty easy.
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:25.760
I am pretty fresh, you know.
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:29.360
I just did my session my last session a you know a couple days ago.
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:34.559
So um, you know, I do think over time maybe it gets a little bit hazier.
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:41.440
Yeah, it feels like there's a lot of like appreciation, gratitude coming up for you that that when you're like remembering it.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:45.599
Is there any sort of like sadness that you're not there in that moment anymore?
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:47.360
Or um grief?
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:49.199
Not really.
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:55.920
Um no, I don't it would be sort of intense to be there forever.
00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:56.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:40:56.880 --> 00:41:05.280
Yeah, um, yeah, ketamine can be a little like um chaotic is sort of the word, like it the way that it breaks things down as of my like psilocybin.
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:08.400
I feel like things break down a little like more gradually or something.
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:10.320
Ketamine, you're just like in it.
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:10.719
Yeah.
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:16.480
And it's it can be intense and um uh especially with the ego death, like very quickly.
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:18.159
It's like, holy shit, where am I?
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:18.480
Yeah.
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:27.280
So um, you know, uh, maybe they'll like come down, like the part where we're talking afterwards, and I'm like, hmm, I feel really good, you know.
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:29.440
But no, I don't really feel grief.
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:34.400
I think I feel curiosity about um if I continue on, you know, with some more sessions.
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:36.400
I'll probably take a little break right now.
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:42.639
Um, but you know, like maybe I'll come back to it again, doing another like series of healing sessions or something.
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:43.519
Yeah.
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:51.679
My own little experience just watching this, I was just I there was like a partner just like, oh, I'm so jealous that you're come on in, Jeff.
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:54.480
Yeah, but another part of me that's just like absolutely fucking not.
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:56.000
She lost her edge, you know.
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:57.360
I don't want to lose mine.
00:41:57.599 --> 00:41:59.119
Where's my Lindsay?
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:02.719
Um so like that was just kind of like a funny thing.
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:08.639
But you were there was one question that you asked where I think you were like, Can you tell me about the color or the shape?
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:09.280
Yeah.
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:11.920
Um I I mean, yeah.
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:14.000
So what are you looking for there?
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:16.079
Why why are you asking that question?
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:20.800
I think it brings it in different parts of the brain and in terms of like anchoring it.
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:28.719
And so having more of an image and a description of what that actually looks like because the as time goes on, that image fades.
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:36.320
And so being able to kind of name it in a way that is, even if it's just a symbol, like maybe it's a tree for somebody or something like that.
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:43.599
And they know that what that tree means, it's not just a tree, it's like you know, embodiment and rootedness and connectedness or whatever it is.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:53.440
And so having um more descriptors around it is helpful to get people's brains to engage with it more and then feel it in their body where it ever is living.
00:42:54.800 --> 00:43:03.760
Yeah, I think there's that level of ineffability too, where you know, maybe there's an experience, uh especially for someone who maybe hasn't experienced it before.
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:08.000
Like if I was trying to describe the 12th dimension, they'd be like, What the fuck are you talking about?
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:08.719
Yeah, right.
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:18.800
Um, so maybe having some sort of like image or color or something like that, or doing art or whatever sometimes just helps to process the parts that are just really weird or hard to talk about.
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:19.199
Yeah.
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:21.599
Well, I had a question about the 12th dimension.
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:29.519
So when when Lindsay is like referencing the 12th dimension, um, are you like, oh, I know exactly what the 12th dimension is?
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:32.480
Is that the right 12th dimension that Lindsay is experiencing?
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:35.280
Or is that just her own personal wacky one?
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:38.159
It's your own personal 12th dimension for sure.
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:39.199
Yeah, what's you in there?
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:40.239
I wish you could have been there.
00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:43.440
It was a lot, but I kind of, you know, like we I just said, is it like Escher?
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:44.880
And she's like, totally like Esher.
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:46.559
You know, okay, I kind of got it.
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:47.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:53.920
I had this little, I have this little like heart like jingle heart thing that I carry with me.
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:59.679
And I was like trying to trace my finger on the outside because I was like, I know on like the earth right now, the shape.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:00.719
It makes sense.
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:00.960
Yeah.
00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:06.320
And my fingers were just like melting into different dimensions, trying to trace this shape.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:07.519
And it was hilarious.
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:09.440
I was like, what am I holding?
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:13.360
No, I don't know that I trend towards once you're in it.
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:14.559
Once you're in it, yeah.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:16.719
Once you're in it, it's sort of like, okay, here I am.
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:17.519
Yeah.
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:22.000
So it felt like I wanted to explore how just freaking weird that was.
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:22.800
So yeah.
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:23.119
Yeah.
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:26.480
You had some funny phrase around just you were just like, this is ridiculous.
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:29.199
You're laughing a lot and just being like, what?
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:29.679
Yeah, what?
00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:30.960
This makes no sense.
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:31.280
Yeah.
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:32.800
And I love that it makes no sense.
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:33.599
Yeah.
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:40.960
The I think at the like beginning you were talking with like all the mothers there and them sort of like wishing you a happy birthday or something.
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:42.159
Happy birthday, baby.
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:43.440
A happy birthday baby.
00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:48.960
That feels very like your birthday is actually happening.
00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:51.599
And like these, and you're in there saying like happy birthday.
00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:54.559
It feels very like, I don't know, like they know it's your birthday.
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:55.760
Yeah, of course they do.
00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:57.280
It's me.
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:01.760
There's something about that that almost feels like that.
00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:08.000
These are like spiritual experiences and beings that like think about the most crazy, important existential stuff.
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:09.760
And they're like, Hope you have a good birthday.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.320
You know, there's just like it's it's very sweet.
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:15.440
And well, it also like, I mean, maybe I didn't talk about this.
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:23.679
It's also very meaningful because um I've felt very like neglected and forgotten in my life, and most of my birthdays in my life I have cried.
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:28.320
Oh and it felt like hey you, you deserve to be solid.
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:31.280
We're so glad that you're having this human experience.
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:33.119
Like you're so amazing.
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:34.880
We're so happy you were born.
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:40.800
It was a feeling like that, and I was able to just hear it and receive it, which feels very big.
00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:41.760
Yeah.
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:53.519
Yeah, there's something so protective too, I feel like, about the bassinet of just being kind of like contained and then but surrounded with love and yeah, yeah, and just celebrated.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:54.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:54.880
Yeah.
00:45:55.119 --> 00:46:00.480
The integration session feels very like accepting and loving and also very like practical.
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:01.599
Like, what are you gonna do?
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:02.639
How are you gonna remember?
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:04.639
Yeah, how you gonna tap into it?
00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:29.360
Um and since this was sort of like a little truncated integration session, um, I'm wondering, like, I didn't I don't know why you would challenge her on anything, but is there or do you sort of kind of like push against or challenge things if like Lindsay is having some sort of I don't know, interpretation and you're like, meh, that feels I don't know, I don't know, icky, wrong, the wrong way.
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:29.920
I don't know.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.960
Do you ever sort of guide her in in a different direction?
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:38.880
Um, I mean, I I really trust the person to um interpret things as they do.
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:50.320
Um, I might share my perspective on what I'm thinking or seeing or feeling, or just like if I have something coming up, like, I don't know why I'm thinking about this, but I'm curious if this means anything to you, that kind of a thing.
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:59.760
But I don't um I can't really imagine a time where I would cr like criticize somebody or try to change what their belief is.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:06.239
But it sometimes people have a harder time imagining what even what it feels like in their body or you know, things like that.
00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:07.679
So sometimes it takes more work.
00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:09.679
This is this is a relatively easy.
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:10.639
She's a yeah, yeah.
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:11.519
She's experienced.
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:16.639
I know there are some, you know, facilitators that have a more confrontational style.
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:17.679
They're usually men.
00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:18.880
Um, sure.
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:33.840
And I think I think there's certain things, like if someone's seeking help with addiction, for instance, where someone might, you know, if they're like, nope, we're not going there, you know, that it might be good to sort of gently challenge like this feels like your addiction talking or something like that.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:34.239
Yeah.
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:36.320
So and that brings up a good point.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:42.159
I will refer to therapists too for sort of more advanced therapeutic technique that I'm not trained in.
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:50.079
And so I think that, you know, there's psychedelic facilitation and integration, and then there's also therapy, and those are different and have different skill sets.
00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:54.960
And so it's it's not something that I try to do on my own if somebody's dealing with addiction or something like that.
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:57.440
It's always helpful to have another set of hands.
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:04.079
Are you like tapped into your own intuition and kept pulling from there at all?
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:07.199
Yes, I think so.
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:08.159
Yeah, I am.
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:22.880
It's hard to say exactly what that looks like, but I do more and more I think find that I am just like, okay, this this feels right to me, and I'm just gonna share it with you know, if it feels appropriate to share it and and see if it can if it makes sense to somebody.
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:24.400
And if it doesn't, then that's fine.
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:29.119
And sometimes I've got the right insight and sometimes I yeah, it doesn't land.
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:44.000
But you know, yeah, but I do think that the intuitive piece of it is really important, both in the facilitation itself, like in the actual session, knowing when to approach, when not to check in with somebody, when not to, things like that, and also in the integration piece.
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:44.480
Yeah.
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:52.719
I think even like before our sessions, I'm thinking to the one where I was like having the like face numbness and the like migrate, whatever that was.
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:56.320
And like you very intuitively were like, Oh, you want me to like hold your hand?
00:48:56.400 --> 00:48:57.679
You want me to do a pressure point?
00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:03.199
Do you want me to and you were like so soft and gentle, and it really I was like, there's no way I'm doing ketamine today?
00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:06.000
And like, lo and behold, 15 minutes later, I'm like in my session.
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:11.519
So that was really helpful for you to just sort of use your sort of healing intuition, just be with me.
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:12.719
Thanks.
00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:13.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:17.039
Is there anything else you too want to add that you think folks should know?
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:21.440
Um I think people should try this.
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.119
Unless there's something that's really contraindicated.
00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:32.320
Um, I'm a huge, obviously a huge fan of you know, using expanded states for healing um and for self-exploration.
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:37.119
And um, you know, uh I think it it can be really helpful.
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:37.440
Yeah.
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:44.400
If people are curious, um, there's ways to do it that are safe or where they can start small and and see what happens.
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:44.800
Yeah.
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:46.159
Very well said.
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:46.719
Yeah.
00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:50.159
Do you want to tell folks where they can find you or reach you if they want to do that?
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:50.639
Sure.
00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:50.960
Yeah.
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:51.280
Yeah.
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:55.119
I so I do um ketamine at uh synaptic institute.
00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:57.760
It's called synaptic.care is the website.
00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:02.000
And I am also at drbigelow.com, drbelo.com.
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:03.920
All right, we'll link to it in our show notes.
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:04.639
Great yeah.
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:05.519
Thank you for being here.
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:07.679
All right, thank you so much for having me.