For Churches Rethinking Women in Leadership

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Welcome to the
Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast.

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Enjoy the podcast.

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Hi. I'm Kay Daigle.

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Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women
Podcast and video.

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We are so happy
that you've joined us today.

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We have two special guests.

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We have Dr. Sandra Glahn with us.

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Welcome Sandi.

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Glad to be here as always.

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Yeah, it's always a treat to have you.

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We always look forward to having you.

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Dr. Glahn is a professor
at Dallas Seminary.

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She is

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a professor of Media Arts and Worship
there.

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She's written over 20 books.

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She has so much to say about her

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that you just need to go to our website
and read her bio

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because she has done a lot

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and she has produced a lot of work.

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And you can find her
in many of our videos.

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So hopefully

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this won't be the last when you watch
go on

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to BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org
and search for her name.

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And you can connect with some of her
other conversations that we've had.

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And Sandra invited

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another friend
to be with us, the third male

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that we have had on our podcast.

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And it is Dr.

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Lucas Rogers.

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Welcome, Lucas.

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Thank you so much.

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Great to be here.

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We are so happy to have you.

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Lucas is the lead pastor at Easton
Bible Church

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in Hainesport, New Jersey.

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And he has both a master's

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and doctorate degrees
from Dallas Seminary as well.

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And we're really happy to have you.

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And despite the fact
that you're only the third man,

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we really appreciate it.

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That's true.

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Well, it's my honor.

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Well, since our ministry is Beyond
Ordinary Women,

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we have tended to focus on women
in these conversations.

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But we're so happy to have you.

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And I'm going to turn around over to Sandi

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and Lucas to talk about our topic today,
which I'm very excited about.

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I feel like many,
many churches need to hear

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about the research that Lucas has done.

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So Lucas has done a hard
look at the best practices

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for churches
that are reconsidering where they stand

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on their position on women
in ministry leadership.

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So let me start out by lobbing a question
like why don't you share with listeners

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how you and I met and how you ended
up diving into this topic?

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Yeah, well, I first

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started my doctorate back in 2017,
and it was during that time

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that looking into different topics and,
and I think we'll probably get into

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a little bit about why I chose this one,
but really I was interested in

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women in church leadership.

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And so, Dr.

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Glahn,
that's when I reached out to you and asked

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if you'd be one of my readers
on my dissertation and

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which is obviously aware of your work and
all of your research that you had done.

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And it was, that was the beginning
of that relationship.

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And it's been a great journey.

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And the topic of your dissertation was?

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Was essentially,
women and church leadership.

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But really the question that it was
seeking to answer is looking at

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churches, and

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specifically churches
that are theologically conservative.

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I come from a Bible church tradition,
all of my life.

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I went to Dallas Seminary

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and looking at churches,
they kind of shared that DNA,

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if you will, of conservative
theologically, biblically.

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And then recognizing that over the last

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two decades or so, more and more of
those churches are reconsidering

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and revisiting their position on women
in church leadership specifically.

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And the question
that I wanted to wrestle with was,

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why is it that you've got churches

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that on paper
all look more or less the same.

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That on paper they would all affirm
the same things biblically, theologically,

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and yet when it came to this issue,
they were landing in different places.

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And so it became clear to me that
just to say, well, we're reading the Bible

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and this is what the Bible says
just wasn't sufficient.

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And so I wanted to kind of delve into that
more and try to unearth

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what are some of the factors
that are going into

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the way these decisions are being made.

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What are some of those factors
that are influencing

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how churches and elder boards specifically
are wrestling with the question

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and how they're interpreting and then
applying the Scripture in their churches?

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Because it just isn't uniform.

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It doesn't
look the same at every church anymore.

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And that was just something
that really fascinated me.

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Well, I mean, there are a zillion topics
you could choose.

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You're a guy.

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What made you choose this topic?

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Yeah, I think, you know,

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one of the advice I was given
is find something that's personal to you.

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You're going to spend a lot of time
delving on a topic

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when you're writing a dissertation
as we can all attest to.

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And so for me, interestingly,
enough, in 2017,

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when I was beginning this process,
I had the opportunity.

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I was invited to observe at a church,
their elder board,

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walking through
this kind of deliberative process.

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They wanted to revisit how women were
serving and leading within their church.

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They wanted to unpack you know,
what did the scriptures say?

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Were they getting it right in a sense,

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this kind of the way
they wanted to approach it.

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And so I got to observe that firsthand.

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And just to be candid,

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I walked away kind
of disappointed.

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I walked away

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just feeling like they didn't
have the tools and the resources necessary

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to even begin the conversation
and to begin the discussion.

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And it wasn't necessarily, you know, it
certainly wasn't a moral failing.

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These were not bad people,
but there was just a lack

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of understanding of even how to

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go about research, about
just being aware of

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some of the biases that they were bringing
into the conversation.

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And so, I walked away from that thinking,
how can I help?

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You know, how can you know,
even if I was in a position

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where--regardless of whether or not
I agreed with their final decision--just

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the process of the decision
making mattered to me.

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I felt like that was something
that the churches, if we're going to be

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having these conversations,
we need to know that

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as we're making these decisions,
the process is a good one, right?

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It needs to be effective.
It needs to be constructive.

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So that was where I began.

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I think for me, there's

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always a variety of factors that come into
when you're deciding on a topic.

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For me, that was a very personal one.

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I think also my experience in churches,
it had become clear to me

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that there was a hedge
that had been set up around the law.

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And so for churches that, you know,
they would read some of these passages,

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I'm sure we'll discuss
at least a little bit 1 Timothy 2

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and other places where Scripture,
at least historically and traditionally in

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some of these Bible churches, have read
that to be very restrictive of women

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in leadership.

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I was part of churches that went way
beyond some of those applications.

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So you might have a church, for example,
that will limit women

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to saying, well, women
shouldn't be pastors or should be elders.

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But I was part of churches

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where women weren't allowed
to, you know, even get on stage.

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They weren't allowed
to make announcements.

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They weren't allowed to hand out
bulletins in the sanctuary.

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And to me, this was a hedge
that I could find no biblical basis for.

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And so that was something
that bothered me.

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And the more I observed that, I just
felt like--how are we treating them?

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You know, what are we communicating
to women and their value and their

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worth within the church?

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And then lastly,

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as a pastor, I just have a deep passion
for church unity.

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And this was an area
that even as my journey over

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these last several years in terms of
like my own personal conviction beliefs,

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it just seemed to me
that how we have these conversations

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matters
both within the church and outside.

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And it became something really
I was very passionate about

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is how to help churches
have the conversation in a way that still

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reflects the grace and the goodness of God
and love for one another.

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Even if we agree, we can agree to disagree

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or even if we disagree, we can do
so in a way that's gracious

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and loving to one another.

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And so that was all part of the motivation
of tackling this topic.

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So it sounds like you were way
more concerned with

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how we get there
than where we land? Right?

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That's true.

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That's true.

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I have my convictions.

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I have my own beliefs and I,

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but for the project itself,
the way I wanted to approach

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it was thinking about
if I was going to help a church

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that wanted to reconsider this,
that wanted to revisit this,

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how can I help equip them to do
so in a way that at the end of the day,

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wherever they land,
their church is healthier for it

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and that they can still even engage
and appreciate

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other churches with other perspectives
instead of having these rifts.

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And, you know, we're in a society
right now where there's so much

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vilifying if anyone who disagrees with us
in the slightest way.

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And so that was something I really wanted
to try to push back against,

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if there was any way of doing so.

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Especially if they're in our own camp.
Right.

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It almost seems like

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Absolutely.

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punish our own for talking with the other.
Right?

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That's right.

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So what were your hunches?

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I mean, what did you suspect?
You had to frame the question?

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What were your hunches going in that
you thought

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might be influencing where people landed?

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Yeah, I started with three

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as I was sort of thought about my time
observing the elder board.

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I was sort of going, okay,
what did I see there?

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And it seemed to me that the one
and none of these

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I think if you stop
and think about cognitive bias,

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you think about how we approach questions
and how we come up with our answers.

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Anyone who's done
any kind of research in psychology

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are going to be aware
of some of these factors at one level.

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One is that our past influences the way
that we see the present and the future.

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And so. Everybody. Right? Everybody.

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Not just the "others." No, it's true
for all of us.

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So I was interested
in, okay, what are the experiences

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within those churches

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that may have shaped
the way that they approached the question?

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The second one was thinking about
how do they view

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everybody outside of the church?

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So how do they view culture.

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Is culture an enemy? Is culture something
that they're trying to influence?

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Is culture something to run away from?

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What is kind of their posture
towards cultural engagement?

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It seemed

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to me that
churches would be really influenced by it

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if they thought a position or a view
reflected too similarly to the culture.

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And if culture was an evil, that might be
something that they would run away from.

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Conversely, if they thought,
how do we engage the culture,

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they might be more inclined
to take a position that in some ways

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someone might say, reflects the culture.

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So what is the dynamic there?

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And then thirdly was
what's their chosen biblical hermeneutic?

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One of the realities of you know,
for years,

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you know, when I first started going back
to DTS back in 2006, I was introduced to

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this idea that there are different ways
of reading Scripture,

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that there are actually different lenses
that we all bring to the interpretive

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exercise.

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And so I was interested in
what are the underlying either conscious

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or even subconscious hermeneutics
that these churches have adopted?

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And are they even aware of them

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as they're seeking to interpret
and then apply the Scriptures?

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And so those were the three.

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Only at churches like within Orthodox
Christianity, correct?

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Right. Yeah, correct.

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Yeah.

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So when I started it was yeah, exactly.

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It was

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00:12:48,434 --> 00:12:51,937
elder-led conservative
kind of from that Bible Church DNA.

242
00:12:52,354 --> 00:12:54,398
Okay, and talk to us.

243
00:12:54,398 --> 00:12:58,068
I just want to say I love so much
that you've done this

244
00:12:58,068 --> 00:13:01,655
and you just describing those churches.

245
00:13:02,531 --> 00:13:04,867
I think I've been in all of those
churches.

246
00:13:05,743 --> 00:13:06,619
Right.

247
00:13:06,702 --> 00:13:07,953
All of those churches.

248
00:13:07,953 --> 00:13:10,331
I mean, I can think of one church

249
00:13:11,081 --> 00:13:15,252
that I was in that
I think they feared dealing with this.

250
00:13:17,004 --> 00:13:20,090
Really, sort of a hidden agenda

251
00:13:20,382 --> 00:13:23,969
that the elders would deal with
if something came up.

252
00:13:24,178 --> 00:13:28,140
But they didn't really want to come up
with a paper

253
00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:31,018
on it, a position on it.

254
00:13:31,227 --> 00:13:33,312
They just sort of avoided it.

255
00:13:33,312 --> 00:13:37,817
Another church,
the elder group, tried to do this,

256
00:13:37,817 --> 00:13:40,110
and it all kind of fell apart,

257
00:13:40,986 --> 00:13:43,155
and nothing really happened.

258
00:13:43,322 --> 00:13:47,493
And, you know, I've been in the churches
that you know, you can't call a woman

259
00:13:47,493 --> 00:13:51,288
a minister much less a pastor, you know?

260
00:13:51,789 --> 00:13:55,918
So I feel like I've sort of been
in the gamut that you're talking about.

261
00:13:55,918 --> 00:13:59,630
But all of these are definitely orthodox
conservative churches.

262
00:13:59,713 --> 00:14:00,339
Yeah.

263
00:14:00,589 --> 00:14:02,591
Believe the Bible, but woo! Oh, yeah.

264
00:14:02,591 --> 00:14:04,343
Okay. Yeah.

265
00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:08,013
So you said hermeneutics, plural.

266
00:14:08,764 --> 00:14:09,265
Correct.

267
00:14:09,265 --> 00:14:12,643
Can you
can you kind of give us some approaches

268
00:14:12,643 --> 00:14:14,895
like a people
who have a high view of Scripture,

269
00:14:15,229 --> 00:14:18,274
what are some approaches
you've seen them take to Scripture?

270
00:14:19,608 --> 00:14:20,651
Yeah, I think

271
00:14:20,651 --> 00:14:24,196
I mean, I think there's two ways
of thinking about hermeneutics.

272
00:14:24,196 --> 00:14:26,448
One is kind of in a formal academic sense.

273
00:14:26,448 --> 00:14:29,577
And then one is just the reality,
as we were saying

274
00:14:29,577 --> 00:14:32,955
earlier, is that we all have a hermeneutic
that we're bringing to Scripture

275
00:14:32,955 --> 00:14:36,333
based on who we are
and our own experience

276
00:14:36,584 --> 00:14:38,043
and even personality. Right?

277
00:14:38,043 --> 00:14:42,423
All of those things, how we're wired
comes in to how we interpret Scripture.

278
00:14:42,590 --> 00:14:45,217
But I think it's important
that what hermeneutics does is it's

279
00:14:45,217 --> 00:14:50,139
acknowledging that there's a gap
between Scripture as God has breathed it.

280
00:14:50,347 --> 00:14:56,020
And that is as all of these churches
that I looked at would confessed

281
00:14:56,020 --> 00:14:59,940
to, is that it is inherent, infallible,
the Word of God.

282
00:15:00,274 --> 00:15:04,445
But there's a gap
between that the Word of God as it is,

283
00:15:04,445 --> 00:15:08,282
and then my interpretation, my
understanding that that is not infallible.

284
00:15:08,616 --> 00:15:12,494
And with
so there's the informal reality of that.

285
00:15:12,494 --> 00:15:16,498
Then there's the, the more formal
and there's a lot of different

286
00:15:16,874 --> 00:15:20,377
research now, and it's been going on
for quite some time.

287
00:15:20,377 --> 00:15:23,130
There's been something that scholars
have been aware of for a long time.

288
00:15:23,130 --> 00:15:27,718
That how we interpret Scripture,
even within that high view

289
00:15:27,718 --> 00:15:29,261
of Scripture, can differ.

290
00:15:29,595 --> 00:15:30,971
So you have different models.

291
00:15:30,971 --> 00:15:34,725
For example, you have some that are like
the redemptive historical model.

292
00:15:34,725 --> 00:15:40,064
You have a philosophical
and theological model, you have historical

293
00:15:40,481 --> 00:15:44,652
literal model or cultural,
you know, looking at the context.

294
00:15:44,777 --> 00:15:49,448
So these are different ways of approaching
the Scripture in order to understand it,

295
00:15:49,657 --> 00:15:52,451
and then to interpret it
and then to apply it.

296
00:15:53,035 --> 00:15:56,330
And what I found from my own experience

297
00:15:56,330 --> 00:16:00,167
was a lot of times
that's just not really realized.

298
00:16:00,167 --> 00:16:05,297
It's not known even by elders,
other leaders within the church.

299
00:16:05,297 --> 00:16:09,760
What they've been given is often assumed
to be the only model that there is.

300
00:16:10,010 --> 00:16:15,182
And so I was interested
in looking at these different churches

301
00:16:15,182 --> 00:16:18,018
and going, okay,
which one are you actually leaning on

302
00:16:18,018 --> 00:16:20,521
for your interpretation,
and do you realize it?

303
00:16:21,563 --> 00:16:23,983
So talk
to us then about how do you frame it?

304
00:16:23,983 --> 00:16:26,610
Like so you got a question.

305
00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:27,987
What's the best approach?

306
00:16:27,987 --> 00:16:29,613
Where are the best practices?

307
00:16:29,613 --> 00:16:32,116
How am I going to come up with the data?

308
00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:33,784
How did you go about it?

309
00:16:33,784 --> 00:16:34,660
Yeah,

310
00:16:34,827 --> 00:16:37,955
I chose three churches

311
00:16:37,955 --> 00:16:42,334
that I was familiar with that
I had connection with in some way.

312
00:16:42,710 --> 00:16:46,880
And that all had,
as I said, a very similar DNA.

313
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,925
On paper all three of the churches
would look very similar.

314
00:16:50,384 --> 00:16:52,845
They all had very similar histories
in terms

315
00:16:52,845 --> 00:16:55,723
of like coming out of that Bible Church
tradition.

316
00:16:56,682 --> 00:16:59,601
And all three of them in the last
ten years

317
00:16:59,601 --> 00:17:02,563
had gone through a deliberate

318
00:17:03,439 --> 00:17:04,773
conversation.

319
00:17:04,773 --> 00:17:07,484
These were all elder-led churches
among the elders.

320
00:17:07,568 --> 00:17:10,237
Revisiting this question,

321
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,115
how should women be serving
within the church?

322
00:17:13,115 --> 00:17:15,451
What is the Scripture say?

323
00:17:15,451 --> 00:17:18,996
And yet all three landed in different
places, and that's what fascinated me.

324
00:17:18,996 --> 00:17:24,418
So you had one church that after this
process said, no, we want to

325
00:17:24,752 --> 00:17:26,837
say women should

326
00:17:26,837 --> 00:17:31,383
or can be pastors, they could be elders
like Scripture supports that.

327
00:17:31,383 --> 00:17:35,596
We've read it wrong essentially
for all these years because they're coming

328
00:17:35,596 --> 00:17:38,307
out of a very traditional male
dominated leadership.

329
00:17:39,224 --> 00:17:42,519
And so they, you know,
using the language of egalitarian,

330
00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:45,230
they said
we're going to be an egalitarian church.

331
00:17:45,856 --> 00:17:47,816
Then the second church that I looked at,

332
00:17:47,816 --> 00:17:51,153
they went through another,
you know, their own process.

333
00:17:51,403 --> 00:17:54,490
And they said, well, we want women to

334
00:17:54,698 --> 00:17:55,783
be pastors.

335
00:17:55,783 --> 00:17:59,578
We want them to teach and to preach,
but we're still going to reserve elder

336
00:17:59,745 --> 00:18:00,662
for only men.

337
00:18:00,662 --> 00:18:03,207
So it's sort of like this, this next step.

338
00:18:03,207 --> 00:18:05,084
And then the third church
that I looked at,

339
00:18:05,084 --> 00:18:08,295
they went through a process
and said, we're going to stay

340
00:18:08,295 --> 00:18:10,923
with our traditional conservative
reading of Scripture.

341
00:18:11,131 --> 00:18:15,344
And so to this day,
they do not permit women

342
00:18:15,344 --> 00:18:19,389
to be elders or pastors,
and they would never use that language,

343
00:18:19,473 --> 00:18:23,894
Kay, to your point, you know, even women
Ministers, much less Pastors.

344
00:18:24,103 --> 00:18:27,481
You had three churches
that all had their own process.

345
00:18:27,856 --> 00:18:31,360
That were all very similar,
and yet landed in three different places.

346
00:18:31,485 --> 00:18:32,736
And so what I did

347
00:18:33,237 --> 00:18:35,864
for my research
was really just try to embed myself

348
00:18:35,864 --> 00:18:38,408
in the culture of these churches
as much as I could.

349
00:18:38,867 --> 00:18:41,286
Now came a lot of interviews.

350
00:18:41,537 --> 00:18:45,791
I talked to everybody
that I could convince to talk to me

351
00:18:46,458 --> 00:18:49,837
within those churches,
within their leadership, their pastoral

352
00:18:49,837 --> 00:18:53,215
staff, their ministry staff, the elders
who are part of these decisions.

353
00:18:53,215 --> 00:18:57,219
I tried to avail myself of anything
that they had published

354
00:18:57,219 --> 00:19:01,056
about their decisions, any of that process
that was available online.

355
00:19:01,348 --> 00:19:03,892
And just try to understand as best I could

356
00:19:03,892 --> 00:19:07,062
their history,
what their process looked like.

357
00:19:07,062 --> 00:19:09,064
And through those conversations, unearth

358
00:19:09,064 --> 00:19:12,860
some of those influences, factors
that I suspected were there.

359
00:19:13,485 --> 00:19:15,821
And so what did you learn?

360
00:19:16,029 --> 00:19:18,824
Yeah, I mean, what I learned is that

361
00:19:19,449 --> 00:19:23,078
yes, there are influencing factors.

362
00:19:23,078 --> 00:19:29,001
This isn't a surprise in one sense,
but what I found with those churches is,

363
00:19:29,376 --> 00:19:32,713
and I kind of take up each one
individually if I can.

364
00:19:32,713 --> 00:19:37,384
So, you know, one of them,
I call them the leadership church.

365
00:19:37,843 --> 00:19:43,098
This was a church that, you know, as
they set about to have this conversation,

366
00:19:43,807 --> 00:19:47,394
they started with this question of
why do we want to have this conversation?

367
00:19:47,394 --> 00:19:52,107
And they are a church
that really wanted to empower

368
00:19:52,107 --> 00:19:55,485
women to

369
00:19:55,485 --> 00:19:57,738
live out the full potential
of their leadership.

370
00:19:57,988 --> 00:20:00,991
They believe that that they wanted to

371
00:20:01,283 --> 00:20:05,120
unlock the leadership
potential of the women within their church

372
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:09,791
that they felt and believed had been
stifled and limited for a long time.

373
00:20:10,167 --> 00:20:13,003
If you look at these three factors,

374
00:20:13,003 --> 00:20:16,798
experience, cultural engagement
and biblical hermeneutic.

375
00:20:16,798 --> 00:20:20,135
For them,
it really began with the experience

376
00:20:20,969 --> 00:20:23,222
and so what happened was they had

377
00:20:23,222 --> 00:20:26,725
started--they had women on staff

378
00:20:26,725 --> 00:20:29,895
who are uniquely gifted and leadership
and teaching.

379
00:20:30,437 --> 00:20:35,400
And over time,
this began to press on their convictions

380
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,364
because they saw God using these women
in really powerful and dramatic ways.

381
00:20:40,948 --> 00:20:44,993
And so that led them to revisit their

382
00:20:45,327 --> 00:20:47,162
biblical hermeneutic.

383
00:20:47,162 --> 00:20:50,082
They said, we see these women
they have these gifts.

384
00:20:50,082 --> 00:20:52,417
They're leading, and they're teaching.

385
00:20:52,417 --> 00:20:55,587
Okay, is it possible
that we need to rethink the way

386
00:20:55,587 --> 00:20:56,922
that we're reading Scripture?

387
00:20:56,922 --> 00:21:02,135
And so there was an openness as they then
approached the question with Scripture.

388
00:21:02,135 --> 00:21:05,305
And so they didn't go into it
trying to, you know,

389
00:21:05,806 --> 00:21:08,100
say, this is what we want
to find within Scripture.

390
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:11,603
But there was this, again,
this revisiting process

391
00:21:11,603 --> 00:21:14,940
because of what their experience
led them to.

392
00:21:15,941 --> 00:21:18,360
And so they began with experience

393
00:21:18,652 --> 00:21:22,906
that then began to shift
the way that they looked at scripture

394
00:21:22,906 --> 00:21:26,118
and they began to investigate
different hermeneutical models.

395
00:21:26,660 --> 00:21:29,538
And as they were looking
at their biblical hermeneutic,

396
00:21:30,163 --> 00:21:34,042
they were open to other models.

397
00:21:34,584 --> 00:21:39,715
And one that they wanted to look
at was a static.

398
00:21:40,173 --> 00:21:42,551
It was very much frozen in time.

399
00:21:43,051 --> 00:21:48,223
If Paul says that this is happening, then
that's what should be happening today.

400
00:21:48,974 --> 00:21:53,562
And the other model was a
what you might call a trajectory model.

401
00:21:53,562 --> 00:21:58,066
And this is looking at our Scripture
from the beginning and through the end

402
00:21:58,066 --> 00:22:03,155
how there's a progression
of greater freedom, more grace,

403
00:22:03,155 --> 00:22:06,783
or a different expressions of grace
throughout Scripture.

404
00:22:07,284 --> 00:22:09,870
And so that openness

405
00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:14,541
to other hermeneutical models
then began to change their conversation.

406
00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:18,420
And in
the midst of that, it also made them

407
00:22:18,754 --> 00:22:21,381
because they weren't
afraid of the culture.

408
00:22:22,424 --> 00:22:25,344
While there were some
who were pushing back and saying,

409
00:22:26,053 --> 00:22:31,141
look, you're just buying into what
the culture is telling you.

410
00:22:31,141 --> 00:22:33,060
This is during the MeToo movement.

411
00:22:33,060 --> 00:22:36,438
They were saying, Actually,
we're just not afraid of the culture.

412
00:22:36,813 --> 00:22:38,940
We want to be able to engage the culture.

413
00:22:39,441 --> 00:22:44,821
And again, that allowed them to have
these open conversations in good faith.

414
00:22:44,905 --> 00:22:48,450
I would say like one of the descriptions
they gave me repeatedly

415
00:22:48,450 --> 00:22:52,079
was that they wanted
to be open, open minded, and they wanted

416
00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:55,165
to be open
hearted around these conversations

417
00:22:55,165 --> 00:22:58,293
and allow the Spirit
to lead them and guide them.

418
00:22:58,877 --> 00:23:01,421
And so it was very open
and they took a lot of time.

419
00:23:01,421 --> 00:23:02,756
There's a lot of prayer involved.

420
00:23:04,174 --> 00:23:04,591
And so it

421
00:23:04,591 --> 00:23:07,094
began with looking at their experience

422
00:23:07,677 --> 00:23:12,140
with women who were just demonstrating
great leadership and teaching.

423
00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:16,061
And that then influenced the way that they
that they read the scriptures

424
00:23:16,061 --> 00:23:18,563
and the hermeneutic models
that they were open to.

425
00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:22,109
The second church,
I'll call it like the missional church,

426
00:23:22,442 --> 00:23:26,071
and this is one
that they were interested in.

427
00:23:26,863 --> 00:23:30,617
How do we make sure
that we are engaging with the culture?

428
00:23:30,617 --> 00:23:34,121
So they began with the culture
where they were not afraid of the culture.

429
00:23:34,121 --> 00:23:36,206
They wanted to engage the culture.

430
00:23:36,206 --> 00:23:38,834
And as part of that conversation,
they wondered, are

431
00:23:38,834 --> 00:23:42,212
we are we a safe place for women?

432
00:23:42,212 --> 00:23:45,006
And that they begin to have conversations

433
00:23:45,006 --> 00:23:48,844
with women on staff and even women
from other ministries and discovered

434
00:23:49,344 --> 00:23:52,305
that women didn't feel safe often
within their church.

435
00:23:52,722 --> 00:23:54,224
The women felt

436
00:23:54,224 --> 00:23:57,978
stifled, that they felt limited,
they felt disrespected and undervalued.

437
00:23:57,978 --> 00:24:00,981
And they gave a lot of stories around how

438
00:24:00,981 --> 00:24:03,650
that was communicated to them
from the leadership even.

439
00:24:04,401 --> 00:24:06,528
And so there was a real. How'd that go?

440
00:24:07,571 --> 00:24:08,029
Yeah.

441
00:24:08,029 --> 00:24:10,699
It was really heartbreaking for them.

442
00:24:10,699 --> 00:24:14,035
And so, you know,
you have this moment where the elders are

443
00:24:14,035 --> 00:24:17,414
sitting down with these women
and are hearing these stories from them.

444
00:24:17,414 --> 00:24:22,544
And there's really just this conviction
and a heart of repentance

445
00:24:22,544 --> 00:24:27,007
that comes over the whole elder board
going, we have not treated these women

446
00:24:27,007 --> 00:24:29,843
the way that they should
as sisters in Christ.

447
00:24:29,843 --> 00:24:33,805
And so for them, the conversation
sort of began with the cultural

448
00:24:33,805 --> 00:24:36,933
and then moved to experiential
because now they're aware

449
00:24:36,933 --> 00:24:40,270
of how women were treated
and how they felt within the church.

450
00:24:40,645 --> 00:24:43,773
And that then again led to this openness
when it came to

451
00:24:43,815 --> 00:24:47,068
how are we going to read the scriptures
to make sure that we're

452
00:24:47,068 --> 00:24:50,155
honoring women and valuing them
the way that they should be?

453
00:24:51,114 --> 00:24:52,491
And then the third church

454
00:24:52,491 --> 00:24:56,036
really began with experience as well.

455
00:24:56,453 --> 00:24:58,705
And for the third church, you know,

456
00:24:58,705 --> 00:25:02,125
their past is very much part
of their identity.

457
00:25:02,792 --> 00:25:04,419
It's who they are.

458
00:25:04,419 --> 00:25:07,797
And so because of that,
they look at the past

459
00:25:07,797 --> 00:25:11,343
as a buffer
against the dangers of the culture.

460
00:25:12,594 --> 00:25:14,888
And so there's really no

461
00:25:15,013 --> 00:25:18,850
gap between how Scripture
has been interpreted

462
00:25:18,850 --> 00:25:22,437
in the past and the truth of Scripture.

463
00:25:22,979 --> 00:25:27,025
So that whole idea of a hermeneutic
and that gap between what God's Word said

464
00:25:27,192 --> 00:25:29,611
and then understanding and interpretation

465
00:25:30,779 --> 00:25:32,781
is all but lost.

466
00:25:33,448 --> 00:25:34,950
And so

467
00:25:35,992 --> 00:25:38,495
the past then becomes very much

468
00:25:39,204 --> 00:25:43,375
the hermeneutic
for how they approach Scripture.

469
00:25:43,833 --> 00:25:46,920
And it becomes a buffer and a defense
from the culture

470
00:25:47,170 --> 00:25:50,340
that they want to make sure
doesn't begin to permeate the church.

471
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,344
And so you have these influencing factors

472
00:25:54,344 --> 00:25:57,722
with all three churches,
but in all three different ways,

473
00:25:58,848 --> 00:26:02,811
and it leads to different interpretations

474
00:26:02,852 --> 00:26:06,773
of the scriptures in different
applications, again, in all three ways.

475
00:26:07,065 --> 00:26:10,527
And let me just say, I have great respect
for all these churches.

476
00:26:11,486 --> 00:26:13,738
My research was never intended to,

477
00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:16,199
you know, in any way denigrate or

478
00:26:16,908 --> 00:26:19,411
hurt anyone in these churches.

479
00:26:19,411 --> 00:26:22,205
I have great respect for each one of them.

480
00:26:22,205 --> 00:26:26,042
I simply wanted to observe and say,
okay, what are the processes

481
00:26:26,042 --> 00:26:26,793
that you are going through?

482
00:26:26,793 --> 00:26:30,338
What are those factors
that you may not even be aware of

483
00:26:30,338 --> 00:26:32,924
that are playing a part
in how you're making these decisions?

484
00:26:33,717 --> 00:26:37,429
So you've been doing
a bunch of consulting with churches since.

485
00:26:37,762 --> 00:26:40,724
What's your advice
now based on your findings?

486
00:26:42,058 --> 00:26:43,560
You know, the questions that I would start

487
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,979
with, one is
why do you want to have this conversation?

488
00:26:47,022 --> 00:26:49,107
I think that the

489
00:26:49,107 --> 00:26:52,235
you know,
the motivation behind it really does,

490
00:26:52,777 --> 00:26:56,406
again, influence
a lot of how you're going to

491
00:26:57,324 --> 00:26:59,826
approach the conversation.

492
00:26:59,826 --> 00:27:02,454
So if your elder board

493
00:27:02,454 --> 00:27:05,457
or your leadership team,
whoever it is within your church,

494
00:27:06,124 --> 00:27:09,836
I will say you need to know
that you're on the same page in terms

495
00:27:09,836 --> 00:27:12,547
or at least understanding
what the motivation is.

496
00:27:12,964 --> 00:27:16,134
What is it
that you want to get out of this process?

497
00:27:17,260 --> 00:27:19,971
With each one of those churches
what I appreciated

498
00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:23,850
was that they did
each have this shared sense of why.

499
00:27:24,267 --> 00:27:27,479
The first church wanted to,
each one of them wanted to be true

500
00:27:27,479 --> 00:27:29,481
to Scripture. Be clear about that.

501
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,902
But the first church was saying,
hey, we see a missed opportunity

502
00:27:33,902 --> 00:27:36,780
with really unlocking women's
potential leadership.

503
00:27:37,364 --> 00:27:39,783
So there was that motivating factor.

504
00:27:40,075 --> 00:27:43,662
The second one was, we want to be a church
that's safe

505
00:27:43,662 --> 00:27:45,747
for women and missional in that sense.

506
00:27:45,872 --> 00:27:48,750
We want to be true to Scripture.
So what is that going to look like for us?

507
00:27:48,750 --> 00:27:51,503
And the third church said
We want to be true to Scripture,

508
00:27:51,503 --> 00:27:54,089
and for them
they wanted to be true to their past.

509
00:27:54,089 --> 00:27:56,758
That was their driving value.

510
00:27:56,758 --> 00:27:59,469
So why is it that you want to engage
this conversation?

511
00:27:59,803 --> 00:28:03,807
I mean, you have to be very honest
with yourself about that.

512
00:28:04,557 --> 00:28:07,727
I think if you're not honest
with that piece of it,

513
00:28:07,727 --> 00:28:10,146
then you can't answer the second question,
which is,

514
00:28:10,146 --> 00:28:11,981
are you willing to change your mind?

515
00:28:11,981 --> 00:28:14,109
Are you willing to be pushed?

516
00:28:14,109 --> 00:28:17,779
Are you willing to
consider other perspectives

517
00:28:18,863 --> 00:28:19,739
genuinely?

518
00:28:19,739 --> 00:28:20,532
Right.

519
00:28:21,157 --> 00:28:24,911
One of the churches that I consulted with,
they realized that they were at a place

520
00:28:24,911 --> 00:28:28,540
where some of those on their leadership
board were simply

521
00:28:28,748 --> 00:28:31,334
when they asked that question, when they
pushed, they said, no, we're not.

522
00:28:31,334 --> 00:28:35,463
We're not willing to
we know what the outcome of this

523
00:28:36,256 --> 00:28:38,758
deliberation is going to be,
what this investigation will be.

524
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,885
So they realized
they had to table the discussion.

525
00:28:41,386 --> 00:28:43,888
It just wasn't going to be done
in good faith.

526
00:28:44,389 --> 00:28:48,435
And so I think starting with why
and then are you willing

527
00:28:48,935 --> 00:28:51,646
to really engage
in this investigation in good faith,

528
00:28:52,439 --> 00:28:55,400
being willing to change your mind,
being willing to be challenged

529
00:28:55,608 --> 00:28:59,195
and not to vilify
everybody who disagreed with you.

530
00:28:59,195 --> 00:29:00,947
All right, that's all part of that.

531
00:29:00,947 --> 00:29:04,659
And then third part of that advice
I give is you have to take your time.

532
00:29:06,077 --> 00:29:09,038
If you're going to have a good process for

533
00:29:09,914 --> 00:29:13,042
making this kind of a decision,
having this kind of deliberation,

534
00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:16,296
then you have to take the time necessary.

535
00:29:17,088 --> 00:29:21,509
One of the churches that I consulted with,
they felt a time crunch

536
00:29:21,509 --> 00:29:25,472
and they tried to really push
the discussion as quickly as possible.

537
00:29:26,014 --> 00:29:29,476
And it's
when you're coming from a tradition

538
00:29:29,476 --> 00:29:32,103
that oftentimes
these churches have long histories,

539
00:29:32,103 --> 00:29:35,231
even if it's a newer church,
you have people who have long histories

540
00:29:35,231 --> 00:29:39,652
in Bible churches or conservative churches
that only have seen it in one way.

541
00:29:39,903 --> 00:29:42,363
If you try to change something quickly,

542
00:29:43,406 --> 00:29:45,325
or even if the process is done too

543
00:29:45,325 --> 00:29:50,163
quickly, you simply don't allow space
for more consideration,

544
00:29:50,163 --> 00:29:54,042
more deliberation,
more exposure, to different ideas.

545
00:29:54,667 --> 00:29:56,377
And frankly, you end up losing

546
00:29:56,377 --> 00:30:00,590
credibility with those people
who know you make the decision.

547
00:30:01,174 --> 00:30:02,133
Interesting.

548
00:30:02,133 --> 00:30:05,303
I think
that credibility is a big part of it.

549
00:30:06,346 --> 00:30:08,389
I always encourage churches.

550
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:12,352
At some point you have to think about
how you're going to be transparent

551
00:30:12,352 --> 00:30:15,855
with your church around the conversation.

552
00:30:16,523 --> 00:30:18,817
If you try to have this conversation

553
00:30:18,817 --> 00:30:22,070
all in back rooms,
and then come out with a decision--whether

554
00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:27,367
they love the decision or not--you again,
you're going to hurt your credibility.

555
00:30:27,367 --> 00:30:28,952
You're going to hurt

556
00:30:29,702 --> 00:30:32,247
really
just the overall health of your church

557
00:30:32,247 --> 00:30:35,124
because there are going to be people
who are going to

558
00:30:35,834 --> 00:30:36,459
question.

559
00:30:36,459 --> 00:30:39,087
And they're going to be hurt
that they weren't

560
00:30:39,420 --> 00:30:42,257
at least involved
or at least have a voice.

561
00:30:42,674 --> 00:30:44,050
You didn't even ask me.

562
00:30:44,050 --> 00:30:45,301
You didn't even ask me.

563
00:30:45,301 --> 00:30:47,929
It will feel very authoritative,
very heavy

564
00:30:47,929 --> 00:30:50,974
handed, even if you have
all the greatest rationale in the world.

565
00:30:50,974 --> 00:30:55,144
Even if you spent two years, if you didn't
let people in on the process,

566
00:30:55,395 --> 00:30:58,356
you're going to end up
hurting your church.

567
00:30:58,481 --> 00:31:00,608
One of the churches that I talked with,

568
00:31:01,192 --> 00:31:03,695
one of their regrets

569
00:31:03,695 --> 00:31:06,906
was--and I think they went through
a really good process overall--but

570
00:31:06,906 --> 00:31:07,949
they said we didn't

571
00:31:07,949 --> 00:31:11,703
involve the congregation, we didn't
involve the membership early enough.

572
00:31:12,328 --> 00:31:16,416
And it wasn't that they needed to have
an all congregational meeting,

573
00:31:16,416 --> 00:31:18,751
where everybody was able
to grab a microphone.

574
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,922
But along the way, being intentional
about letting people know, hey,

575
00:31:22,922 --> 00:31:24,465
we're having this conversation.

576
00:31:24,465 --> 00:31:27,844
Here's why, here's
why we think it matters,

577
00:31:28,094 --> 00:31:32,390
and then informing them
and updating them along the way.

578
00:31:32,390 --> 00:31:37,854
Giving people space to think
and to respond at times is really vital

579
00:31:37,854 --> 00:31:40,565
if you're going to try to maintain
that unity of the church.

580
00:31:41,816 --> 00:31:43,735
So I can echo that.

581
00:31:43,735 --> 00:31:46,946
I talked to a pastor who said
we went through this whole process.

582
00:31:46,946 --> 00:31:48,531
We're happy with how it ended.

583
00:31:48,531 --> 00:31:52,035
But if we had it all to do over,
we would do a lot better job

584
00:31:52,243 --> 00:31:53,202
of communicating.

585
00:31:53,202 --> 00:31:55,455
Even, here are the books
the elders are reading.

586
00:31:55,663 --> 00:31:59,626
Here's we're discussing this
in this six month period--just

587
00:31:59,959 --> 00:32:03,254
more of a transparency
about how they were doing it

588
00:32:03,254 --> 00:32:06,466
rather than we,
the officials are going to come down

589
00:32:06,466 --> 00:32:09,677
from on high with a decision
you have to live.

590
00:32:09,802 --> 00:32:12,805
He's like,
you know, we were wrestling, honestly,

591
00:32:12,805 --> 00:32:15,224
but we should all let our people know,

592
00:32:15,224 --> 00:32:19,187
yeah, and maybe they could have wrestled
to even if they if we weren't asking them

593
00:32:19,187 --> 00:32:23,566
their opinions, they would have had
at least the same resources.

594
00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:27,946
Speaking of which, what are some resources
that you used in the process?

595
00:32:29,113 --> 00:32:31,908
A lot.

596
00:32:31,908 --> 00:32:33,993
You know, where I began was

597
00:32:34,285 --> 00:32:38,873
one, there's just there's so much research
out there that's available.

598
00:32:38,873 --> 00:32:41,834
If you do a little bit of research,
starting with

599
00:32:42,168 --> 00:32:45,004
just the

600
00:32:45,505 --> 00:32:47,924
experience--how experience

601
00:32:48,675 --> 00:32:51,928
shapes the way that we interpret
the present and the way that we

602
00:32:52,178 --> 00:32:54,681
then respond or move into the future.

603
00:32:55,556 --> 00:32:58,518
You know,
one of the things that I suspected

604
00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:02,021
as I was looking into
this was for a church

605
00:33:02,271 --> 00:33:03,898
like the church that I would say

606
00:33:03,898 --> 00:33:06,985
is more traditional and conservative
and have held their position.

607
00:33:07,986 --> 00:33:09,862
One of the things that I was interested in

608
00:33:09,862 --> 00:33:13,825
is how when you look at your history
as a church,

609
00:33:14,325 --> 00:33:18,246
it's really easy to go well,
this is almost like a sunk cost.

610
00:33:19,122 --> 00:33:22,000
You know, this is how we honor the past.

611
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,751
This is who we've always been.

612
00:33:23,751 --> 00:33:27,046
Talk about the sunk cost, because that's
not a familiar term to everybody.

613
00:33:27,046 --> 00:33:29,298
But I think it's a really important one
in this conversation.

614
00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:29,924
Yeah.

615
00:33:29,924 --> 00:33:34,595
So the sunk cost fallacy is really just
this idea of a bias where the more we have

616
00:33:34,595 --> 00:33:40,143
invested in something, the less likely
we are to change our direction.

617
00:33:40,143 --> 00:33:40,393
Right?

618
00:33:40,393 --> 00:33:45,273
So I have this investment that I've made,
and I've put a bunch of money into it,

619
00:33:45,273 --> 00:33:48,443
and I see it going downhill,
but I can't live with the idea

620
00:33:48,443 --> 00:33:52,530
that I've put all this investment into it
so I actually double down.

621
00:33:52,905 --> 00:33:57,160
And so this is a,
you know, it's a fallacy that we buy into.

622
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,203
And I think it actually plays out.

623
00:33:59,203 --> 00:34:02,915
It's a very common one when it comes to
like what we've experienced.

624
00:34:03,458 --> 00:34:06,544
So we've experienced something
where we've said

625
00:34:06,544 --> 00:34:11,257
this is what's right, this is what's
true, this is how we have to think.

626
00:34:11,257 --> 00:34:13,384
This is how we have to interpret
scripture.

627
00:34:13,926 --> 00:34:17,221
And over time,
even if we start to think, oh,

628
00:34:17,221 --> 00:34:21,851
maybe we didn't have that right,
we can't afford the loss.

629
00:34:22,018 --> 00:34:27,273
We feel the loss of the people
that has taught that who came before us,

630
00:34:27,273 --> 00:34:31,819
we feel the loss of those
who have invested

631
00:34:31,819 --> 00:34:35,448
and all of who our church
has been for so long.

632
00:34:35,448 --> 00:34:40,369
And in this way
we feel like it's dishonoring and

633
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:43,081
it's a hard

634
00:34:43,081 --> 00:34:45,792
decision to realize, you know,
I want to change my mind

635
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,878
because I have all this investment
in who we've always been.

636
00:34:49,545 --> 00:34:53,716
And so that was something that I think,
you know, you have to be aware of

637
00:34:53,716 --> 00:34:57,929
if you do have that long tradition
and you're really tied to.

638
00:34:58,805 --> 00:34:59,889
And for a lot of good

639
00:34:59,889 --> 00:35:03,309
reasons, like who your church has been,
there's a lot of good there.

640
00:35:03,309 --> 00:35:03,726
Yeah.

641
00:35:03,726 --> 00:35:05,019
And are you losing that?

642
00:35:05,019 --> 00:35:06,646
Are you willing to do that?

643
00:35:07,396 --> 00:35:11,400
So there's a lot of research on that
and just that reality, that one.

644
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,611
And that's one of the biases that I think
creeps in.

645
00:35:15,238 --> 00:35:18,574
Also just within cultural engagement,
obviously,

646
00:35:18,574 --> 00:35:20,910
there's a lot of different things
you can read.

647
00:35:20,910 --> 00:35:25,164
And Dr. Bock has Cultural Intelligence,
that's one of the more recent ones.

648
00:35:25,164 --> 00:35:27,708
But, you know, some of the books
that I found really helpful,

649
00:35:27,959 --> 00:35:30,670
the first one that comes to mind
is The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt.

650
00:35:31,587 --> 00:35:34,674
That's a book that just talks
about how we come

651
00:35:34,674 --> 00:35:36,467
to thinking about

652
00:35:37,135 --> 00:35:41,305
different topics in the world
and the different biases that we bring to

653
00:35:41,305 --> 00:35:43,349
them, almost like different flavors
that we have.

654
00:35:43,349 --> 00:35:47,019
And just being aware of those
is really helpful for having these types

655
00:35:47,019 --> 00:35:52,150
of conversations
within obviously within the topic itself.

656
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:56,070
One of them there really made an influence
on me from the very beginning was R.T.

657
00:35:56,070 --> 00:35:58,531
France's Women in the Church's Ministry. France's Women in the Church's Ministry.

658
00:35:58,781 --> 00:36:02,702
This is based on a series of lectures
that he did, and the subtitle is "A

659
00:36:02,702 --> 00:36:06,372
Test Case from Biblical Interpretation."
And what I love about

660
00:36:06,372 --> 00:36:10,251
R.T. France is just his candor
throughout these lectures.

661
00:36:10,751 --> 00:36:14,797
And he really approaches this question of
how are you interpreting Scripture.

662
00:36:14,797 --> 00:36:18,801
And he kind of calls us to task to say,
you know,

663
00:36:18,801 --> 00:36:22,346
you are not as infallible
in your interpretation as you think.

664
00:36:23,014 --> 00:36:26,058
I think it's a great place
to open a conversation

665
00:36:26,058 --> 00:36:28,936
for anybody who wants to revisit this,
just to say,

666
00:36:29,353 --> 00:36:32,064
Hey, let's just take a step back
and really consider

667
00:36:32,356 --> 00:36:35,943
how much do you really know,
how much certainty should you really have?

668
00:36:36,861 --> 00:36:39,363
And that didn't make you walk away
deconstructing it all?

669
00:36:39,572 --> 00:36:40,114
It didn't.

670
00:36:40,114 --> 00:36:40,531
It didn't.

671
00:36:40,531 --> 00:36:45,036
It actually was really, maybe it's
because I'm a philosophy major at heart.

672
00:36:45,036 --> 00:36:48,247
But actually, I found it really refreshing

673
00:36:48,873 --> 00:36:51,584
that he was willing to say

674
00:36:52,376 --> 00:36:55,338
we can uphold inerrancy of Scripture

675
00:36:55,338 --> 00:36:59,675
and not give our interpretations
that same level of credit.

676
00:37:00,384 --> 00:37:03,304
And I think that's really important.

677
00:37:03,304 --> 00:37:07,141
God's truth is true and Scripture is true,

678
00:37:07,141 --> 00:37:11,938
but my interpretation is not 100%
accurate.

679
00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:12,647
Right?

680
00:37:12,813 --> 00:37:15,816
And so there's always room to grow
and to learn.

681
00:37:16,817 --> 00:37:21,030
The other two that are just kind of really
well rounded and again,

682
00:37:21,322 --> 00:37:25,743
you know, I came at this
not trying to argue for a position.

683
00:37:25,743 --> 00:37:29,830
But I would say wanting
to just get a well-rounded

684
00:37:30,414 --> 00:37:34,919
exposure to the conversation,
the two just as a starting place,

685
00:37:34,919 --> 00:37:37,755
one is Recovering
Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.

686
00:37:38,047 --> 00:37:39,799
This is John Piper and Wayne Grudem.

687
00:37:40,549 --> 00:37:43,844
And then you have to turn around and read
Discovering

688
00:37:43,844 --> 00:37:47,890
Biblical Equality: Biblical, Theological,
Cultural and Practical Perspectives.

689
00:37:48,099 --> 00:37:51,519
This is Ronald Pierce
and Cynthia Westfall, editors of that.

690
00:37:51,894 --> 00:37:55,815
So those are two works
that are really in dialog with each other,

691
00:37:56,107 --> 00:37:59,902
not always in the most friendly of terms,
but they are.

692
00:38:00,611 --> 00:38:04,865
But it's a great way to just go, okay,
what are the different voices?

693
00:38:05,283 --> 00:38:09,996
What are the different topics
and pieces of these arguments?

694
00:38:09,996 --> 00:38:11,580
Just as a starting place.

695
00:38:11,580 --> 00:38:13,833
And they're both within the inerrancy
camp.

696
00:38:13,833 --> 00:38:15,293
Both within the inerrancy camp.

697
00:38:15,293 --> 00:38:18,796
But I think that's really important
to see that

698
00:38:19,005 --> 00:38:22,758
you have both sides
that, you know, they're both conservative.

699
00:38:22,758 --> 00:38:24,051
They're both orthodox.

700
00:38:24,051 --> 00:38:28,180
They're both going to be within that
you know, like you said, Orthodox.

701
00:38:28,180 --> 00:38:30,850
But they're going to see things very,
very differently.

702
00:38:30,850 --> 00:38:34,895
And that's a healthy thing to see
and to be exposed to.

703
00:38:35,313 --> 00:38:35,896
Yeah.

704
00:38:36,022 --> 00:38:39,233
So you said that one piece of advice is,

705
00:38:39,233 --> 00:38:41,986
you know, even
why are you asking some questions?

706
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:43,696
Is there anything else like

707
00:38:44,697 --> 00:38:45,614
inviting women in?

708
00:38:45,614 --> 00:38:46,866
Does that make a difference?

709
00:38:47,158 --> 00:38:47,867
Absolutely.

710
00:38:47,867 --> 00:38:49,869
Yeah. No, I appreciate you

711
00:38:49,869 --> 00:38:51,370
asking the question.

712
00:38:51,370 --> 00:38:51,662
Yeah.

713
00:38:51,662 --> 00:38:54,915
So part of

714
00:38:54,915 --> 00:38:56,959
taking more time

715
00:38:56,959 --> 00:39:00,254
is to give yourself
what I missed that earlier.

716
00:39:00,254 --> 00:39:02,923
Part of what I was thinking about
in terms of

717
00:39:02,923 --> 00:39:05,718
who are the voices that you're inviting
in, you know.

718
00:39:05,718 --> 00:39:07,845
So it gives you more time to

719
00:39:08,387 --> 00:39:10,639
read more broadly,

720
00:39:10,639 --> 00:39:15,102
ask broader perspectives
and being open to different perspectives

721
00:39:15,102 --> 00:39:18,731
and open to different voices,
I think that's really important again.

722
00:39:18,731 --> 00:39:22,818
So going along those lines of those two
different books that I really recommended

723
00:39:22,818 --> 00:39:25,321
there is you've got to have

724
00:39:26,155 --> 00:39:28,783
voices from different perspectives
in different camps

725
00:39:28,783 --> 00:39:33,162
in order to really understand
and appreciate all the different

726
00:39:33,162 --> 00:39:36,290
angles of the conversation.

727
00:39:36,707 --> 00:39:39,377
And so,
you know, one of the things that the

728
00:39:40,127 --> 00:39:41,087
churches that I would

729
00:39:41,087 --> 00:39:43,589
say their process was longer.

730
00:39:44,215 --> 00:39:47,009
They along the way discovered

731
00:39:47,551 --> 00:39:51,055
what different avenues
they needed to pursue.

732
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,351
They gave themselves that space to go,

733
00:39:55,393 --> 00:39:58,354
okay, you know what--because
we're not on a time crunch.

734
00:39:59,313 --> 00:40:04,819
I want to run over here and I want to see
if we can go down this rabbit hole.

735
00:40:04,819 --> 00:40:07,905
Perhaps some sense and invite this person

736
00:40:07,905 --> 00:40:11,909
to talk or to I want to encourage
everybody to read this article.

737
00:40:11,909 --> 00:40:17,331
And so they definitely had a much broader
scope of exposure than, for example,

738
00:40:17,331 --> 00:40:21,460
one of the churches that I talked to that
tried to do literally in three months.

739
00:40:22,086 --> 00:40:23,879
And it was

740
00:40:23,879 --> 00:40:26,340
literally a three-month process.

741
00:40:26,340 --> 00:40:30,177
And because of that,
there were so few voices.

742
00:40:30,177 --> 00:40:33,180
There's a basically ended up being
a debate within the elder board itself.

743
00:40:33,180 --> 00:40:37,143
And it was it was a couple of guys
arguing with a couple of guys.

744
00:40:37,143 --> 00:40:41,981
And in the end, they didn't really get
anywhere in any sort of healthy way.

745
00:40:42,481 --> 00:40:45,443
Yeah. So, yeah, no, absolutely. I think

746
00:40:45,985 --> 00:40:48,195
you have to have

747
00:40:48,362 --> 00:40:50,239
as broad exposure as possible, I think.

748
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,492
And you can do that
within an orthodox conservative,

749
00:40:53,868 --> 00:40:56,662
you know, framework
without question. Yeah.

750
00:40:57,163 --> 00:40:59,415
Anything else you want to add
we should know?

751
00:40:59,790 --> 00:41:01,500
I mean, I would just encourage anybody

752
00:41:01,500 --> 00:41:05,921
who's looking into this--take the time
and this is

753
00:41:06,088 --> 00:41:08,757
this is the conversation
I think every church should have.

754
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:12,261
If your church hasn't
gotten to this point yet,

755
00:41:12,761 --> 00:41:15,014
they need to at some point.

756
00:41:15,306 --> 00:41:20,769
And the reason I think that is
because we're at a time right now

757
00:41:20,769 --> 00:41:24,648
where so much is changing
with our world rapidly.

758
00:41:25,441 --> 00:41:27,610
And there are so many different
ethical questions

759
00:41:27,610 --> 00:41:30,696
that are coming into churches
from every different angle.

760
00:41:31,489 --> 00:41:36,285
This is one, though, that is so
as you know, before we got in this call,

761
00:41:36,285 --> 00:41:39,580
you were talking about a church
that you're consulting with right now.

762
00:41:39,580 --> 00:41:42,666
They're seeing their church
started to get split over this.

763
00:41:43,292 --> 00:41:45,503
That's happening all over the country.

764
00:41:45,503 --> 00:41:48,881
And this is one
that if churches are going to be able

765
00:41:48,881 --> 00:41:53,135
to be a positive voice,
to be sort of light

766
00:41:53,135 --> 00:41:56,597
within the culture,
then we have to be healthy.

767
00:41:56,889 --> 00:41:59,225
And part of that is understanding,

768
00:41:59,892 --> 00:42:03,187
not shoving these kinds of conversations
under the rug,

769
00:42:03,187 --> 00:42:06,315
but bringing them to light and doing
so in a way

770
00:42:06,315 --> 00:42:08,609
that is going to

771
00:42:08,984 --> 00:42:11,028
bring unity and not division

772
00:42:11,028 --> 00:42:12,446
even within the church.

773
00:42:13,197 --> 00:42:16,200
And that's what's interesting
is, you know,

774
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,869
I think a lot of times
there's this fear of disunity.

775
00:42:18,869 --> 00:42:21,121
And so it's like,
let's try to shove this under the rug.

776
00:42:21,121 --> 00:42:22,831
Let's not have this conversation.

777
00:42:22,831 --> 00:42:24,750
We're afraid of what
this would do to our church.

778
00:42:24,750 --> 00:42:27,002
And I think it's actually the opposite.

779
00:42:27,002 --> 00:42:29,630
I think the healthiest churches
are the ones that are going to say,

780
00:42:29,922 --> 00:42:32,049
we're going to lean
into the hard conversation

781
00:42:32,883 --> 00:42:35,844
but we're going to do so with humility
and we're going to do so

782
00:42:35,844 --> 00:42:38,264
with self-awareness.
We're going to do this

783
00:42:38,973 --> 00:42:43,435
with transparency and try to see this

784
00:42:43,435 --> 00:42:47,398
as an opportunity for spiritual formation
even within your church.

785
00:42:47,898 --> 00:42:52,945
But I think when that becomes
the heart of your leadership, then

786
00:42:53,529 --> 00:42:56,240
I think that there's real potential there

787
00:42:56,490 --> 00:42:59,660
for at the end of the day, your church
being healthier and stronger for it.

788
00:43:00,828 --> 00:43:04,498
And I think there's an opportunity there
that we need to have.

789
00:43:05,165 --> 00:43:08,168
That has ramifications
for a lot of other issues.

790
00:43:08,168 --> 00:43:09,128
Right? Absolutely.

791
00:43:09,128 --> 00:43:10,129
Yeah. Absolutely.

792
00:43:10,129 --> 00:43:11,797
Thank you so much.

793
00:43:11,797 --> 00:43:12,881
I appreciate your work.

794
00:43:12,881 --> 00:43:14,341
I appreciate you joining us.

795
00:43:14,341 --> 00:43:17,177
Dr. Daigle, anything you want to add?

796
00:43:17,177 --> 00:43:21,682
I just want to say I totally agree
very much appreciate

797
00:43:22,141 --> 00:43:25,728
the research that you've done,
the time that you spent on this.

798
00:43:25,728 --> 00:43:29,231
And it's a benefit
to the church in general.

799
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,360
And just saying that for the churches,

800
00:43:33,694 --> 00:43:36,447
I can't speak for them, but when

801
00:43:36,447 --> 00:43:40,743
they watch this or when they

802
00:43:40,743 --> 00:43:43,329
finally come to the decision

803
00:43:43,329 --> 00:43:47,833
to make a decision about this,
I think that they will benefit from that,

804
00:43:47,833 --> 00:43:52,254
just as you pointed out, that
this is an important conversation to have.

805
00:43:52,671 --> 00:43:54,757
Shouldn't just be swept under the rug.

806
00:43:54,757 --> 00:43:56,675
It shouldn't be hurried.

807
00:43:56,675 --> 00:44:01,263
And those are some of the experiences
that I had a hurried

808
00:44:01,847 --> 00:44:03,349
kind of

809
00:44:03,724 --> 00:44:06,310
where the church
that it kind of fell apart in.

810
00:44:06,310 --> 00:44:09,813
They were trying to hurry
because I think some of the elders

811
00:44:09,813 --> 00:44:11,607
were going to leave
and they were going to need

812
00:44:11,607 --> 00:44:14,735
to get new elders
who had not done any of the research

813
00:44:15,277 --> 00:44:18,155
because it'd only been the circle

814
00:44:18,364 --> 00:44:20,783
of the elders involved.

815
00:44:21,450 --> 00:44:24,036
And so it was being rushed

816
00:44:24,036 --> 00:44:28,499
and they did finally bring a group of us
as women in to talk to them.

817
00:44:29,041 --> 00:44:29,583
Uh-huh.

818
00:44:30,584 --> 00:44:31,835
There was division among the

819
00:44:31,835 --> 00:44:34,713
women, but many of them had never studied
the topic.

820
00:44:34,922 --> 00:44:37,091
So they were Right. blind.

821
00:44:37,091 --> 00:44:41,679
They were just talking from,
this is the way I feel about it.

822
00:44:42,221 --> 00:44:44,556
It was nothing

823
00:44:44,807 --> 00:44:47,851
about their real biblical research.

824
00:44:48,185 --> 00:44:48,769
Uh-huh.

825
00:44:49,395 --> 00:44:53,607
I really see the value in everything
that you brought up.

826
00:44:53,607 --> 00:44:58,487
And these practices I think
would really be helpful for any church.

827
00:44:59,029 --> 00:45:00,572
So thank you so much

828
00:45:00,572 --> 00:45:03,742
for bringing this to light
and doing all the work that you did.

829
00:45:04,284 --> 00:45:06,161
That's my pleasure.

830
00:45:06,995 --> 00:45:11,500
We have other videos on church issues

831
00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:14,920
that you might be interested
in, other podcast on these.

832
00:45:15,295 --> 00:45:18,382
So if you go to BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org

833
00:45:18,382 --> 00:45:22,970
and look under resources,
you will see that we have

834
00:45:22,970 --> 00:45:24,596
church issues listed,

835
00:45:24,596 --> 00:45:28,809
and that's where this type of conversation
falls in.

836
00:45:29,393 --> 00:45:33,147
So I would just encourage
any of you out there who are on church

837
00:45:33,147 --> 00:45:38,193
staffs or you're elders in churches
or you have influence

838
00:45:38,610 --> 00:45:40,279
in a church that

839
00:45:40,279 --> 00:45:44,074
you bring this up,
how important this is and

840
00:45:45,075 --> 00:45:49,204
just bring it to the light
instead of just trying to hide.

841
00:45:49,747 --> 00:45:51,749
Let's just not deal with it.

842
00:45:51,749 --> 00:45:53,333
Ignore and it'll go away.

843
00:45:53,333 --> 00:45:54,960
If only.

844
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,171
Yeah, it's not the way to go.

845
00:45:57,755 --> 00:46:01,008
So thank you and we will look forward
to seeing you again

846
00:46:01,008 --> 00:46:04,052
on our Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast.

847
00:46:04,386 --> 00:46:08,432
Thanks for listening to the Beyond
Ordinary Women Podcast.

848
00:46:09,016 --> 00:46:12,978
You can find more podcast episodes
and other resources for leaders

849
00:46:13,312 --> 00:46:17,191
by going to BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org.

850
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,194
This podcast is produced

851
00:46:20,194 --> 00:46:22,404
by Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries.

852
00:46:23,447 --> 00:46:27,201
Our production team includes
Diana Anunda,

853
00:46:27,826 --> 00:46:30,370
Evelyn Babcock, Kay Daigle,

854
00:46:30,871 --> 00:46:33,791
Sharifa Stevens and Deborah Herring.

855
00:46:34,792 --> 00:46:37,127
The theme music, "Back in Stride",

856
00:46:37,377 --> 00:46:39,671
was written by Don E. Miller,

857
00:46:39,671 --> 00:46:42,007
produced by Glenn W. Cranford,

858
00:46:42,007 --> 00:46:45,093
and used courtesy
of Christina K. Miller.