Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hello and welcome to the Bee Formless Flow Driven CEO podcast, where we are reshaping life, leadership, and business. And I am actually in LA today, so I'm gonna welcome to the show, Will Cady Welcome to the show, Will. Hey
Will Cady: Hi there, thank you for having me.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: thank you. my goodness, how hot is it here in LA, Will? Like, what's going on? Is this just like a
Will Cady: Mm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: heat wave? Or like I've come from Melbourne where it's freezing and here I am hitting the summer vibes.
Will Cady: yeah. I mean my library's kind of in our attic and it's at least eighty five in this room right now.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I don't even know what eighty five is in Celsius. I need to get my Fahrenheit and Celsius is right.
Will Cady: Right, right, of course. twenty five, maybe close to thirty. I don't know. Is thirty like the death level? I'm
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I'm thinking thirty-five degrees for all the Australian listeners out there, but I am gonna say a big shout out to all everybody from around the world to be kind hello to you all. See, we do I do go global, I d I do come to places.
Will Cady: We are global.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: We are global. Will and I aren't together today. That's okay though. We're we're close by and I've been really excited to chat to you, Will, because you have quite the journey, quite the story, and talk about,
Will Cady: Thank you.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: you know, great success and what you're doing now. And I I'm really keen to drill into it. And I'm gonna start with this. You are the father, first time dad of a little daughter called Meadow, who actually has her first birthday this coming Sunday. How's that been?
Will Cady: Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's that's the main job right now. That's the priority.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: humbling is the first word that comes to mind. you know, moments going back and forth between absolute terror and absolute sublime, you know, fulfillment of life's purpose and meaning, you know, and s that can happen within the span of sixty seconds.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, totally. Totally. Is she crawling? Is she walking yet?
Will Cady: She is so close to walking. So
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Okay.
Will Cady: she's able to balance standing upright. she loves to do this little thing where she like stands up on my lap facing me and then she kind of like grabs the collar of my shirt like she's trying to steal my lunch money and she just like holds on to it and then is able to balance for a few seconds.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: it. So cute. So cute. It gives you good perspective, doesn't it? Because you do have quite the story. You're the author of a book that is called Which Way is North as well as a podcast. And have you got your book in front of you? You want do you want to pull your book up? Yeah. Yeah.
Will Cady: Yeah. I do. Yep, here it is. Folks that are watching on video, there's the cover. Available anywhere books are sold. Which way is north?
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, amazing. We'll get into that shortly. So, like I said, you're the author and pod author of the of the book Which Ways North as well as a podcast host. Are you having
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: a little bit of a break as you're giving it to your first year with Meadow? You're an artist,
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: a cultural strategist, and you're the founder of Heel Movement. And I'm gonna say movement is V N T. I love the abbreviation
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: there. And you bring together creativity, technology, and ancient wisdom to put humanity back at the center of progress. And absolutely love
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: that because you know what a time. To have humanity at the center of progress. However, an inflection point emerged for you, and that was when you had meant spent many years, Will, at Reddit, an incredible community as well. We're helping shape a billion-dollar business, deepened your explor exploration of the role of culture, creativity, and human connection play in what we build. And so today you're championing Will, from what I understand, the humanities alongside technological progress. I was kept tongue tied with that word. Challenging
Will Cady: Ha ha
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: leaders and businesses to make technological ambition with moral ambition and ask better questions about the future we are creating. And ultimately, at the heart and soul of your work is a belief that as technology accelerates, our humanity must evolve alongside it. I couldn't say I couldn't
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: agree with you on that more. And that is through meaning, values, creativity, and deeper human connection. So, years at Reddit, I'm always you know, my eyes lit up when Jen reached out. I reached out to Jen and she said, you should meet Will. You know, he's he's he was at Reddit and a billion dollar company and and an incredible community and what you've learned there and then to then go and start your own a movement. Tell us a little bit about you know what you learned at Reddit and then obviously the transition. Yeah, I'll I'll hand it over to you.
Will Cady: So there's a few choices that I've made in my life that were wise, even if I, you know, didn't have the absolute capacity to make the best decisions always. top of the list is, you know, being with my wife as my life partner and all
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: that has come with that. And actually I think, you know, to give her credit of the person that she made me into, that gave me the facility to make another great choice, which was to work at Reddit at a time when you had to be a little crazy to do that.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm-hmm.
Will Cady: back in twenty sixteen it was, as we called it as a company, Utopian Craigslist. It was not exactly an appealing business the way that it looks today, but I understood deeply that there was something really powerful that was happening on that corner of the internet and that that power was something that a lot of people didn't yet understand.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And what I got from the other side of that journey was a confidence in my foresight that I have a intuition that I can tap into to make decisions and see things coming before they come to fruition. And what I'm seeing now in that Path is the importance of humanity. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: that doesn't come from nowhere. It comes also from, you know, what Reddit taught me in the same way that, you know, my wife made me a person that could choose Reddit. Reddit made me a person that could choose humanity. Shortly after I started, you know, there's a value at that company. They put a sign on the wall that said, Remember the human. And I want people to really think about that because that was 2016.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, that's cool. Mm.
Will Cady: that I started at this company. And I see a lot of conversation today online in the media about the importance of revisiting our humanity, prioritizing our humanity. And it has this vigor and vitality to it, as though it's a fresh idea. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: that vigor and vitality is great. I I don't want to discredit that. But I do want to point out that it's significant that a company like Reddit was saying that a decade ago.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: Because it indicates
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Before COVID, well, it was even before like it was it was well before COVID and and you know, COVID feels so long ago. Like to
Will Cady: Yeah. Yes.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: to think that you were saying that remember the human.
Will Cady: Yes, exactly, exactly. And so I was I was, you know. obviously younger than I am now, I was at a d different place in my career where I didn't really know I didn't have my foresight dialed in yet. I didn't have my intuition fully clocked. But when I learned of that value remember the human, that articulated the important thing that I knew mattered that that company was building around. You know, in a similar sense that I didn't have like a full view of who I could be before I began my relationship with my wife, but it started to come into focus. And that was also my humanity, right? It's not trite to be talking about my relationship or to be talking about my child and my parenthood in this conversation because all of this is the reservoir of what makes me human.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And there were forces that were emerging on the internet and in business and media and technology, even
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: in those times that are the same forces that we're contending with today that would cause a company like that to say something like Remember the human back then and so it's become even more important now because that story has continued and gotten louder and more dramatic.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: So yeah it has got to more dramatic. There's there's quite a few questions I have here. I want to come right back to intuition because I'm a I I have a really strong sixth sense and and intuition and energetically I've I've studied pranic healing and from an energy sense and you said you you had to work on, you know, like I think when you've got all this external noise and everything happening, we tend to not like hear our intuition. It's only when we go silent or we go within and and and I like to think about it inside out, right? Like getting getting all the answers from within. Tell us tell us a little bit about yeah how you garnered your intuition. Like, was it something that you were like you thought you needed to work on? Like in terms of to get you into, I guess, if we think about remember the human and this humanity piece, like you can't be I I I think there's this whole and I'd love your thoughts on this, like you you if you think about remember the human and and humanity and progress and evolution, if you are an external facing person if if you are you know you operate from the outside in, you can't tap into intuition. You can't you
Will Cady: Yeah, yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: can't remember the human. The value doesn't exist. Like humanity doesn't exist, if you know what I mean. And so I'd love your your perspective on and how you came to go, okay. And it this is Yeah.
Will Cady: Well what I what what I came to learn as my career as a creative professional really blossomed is that creativity is spirituality and drag. It's the same thing just with different wardrobe. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: that. You're giving me all these great like I'm writing all these thumbnails down for you. Like I'm like remember the human. Creativity's spirituality and drag. I'm like, this is great. Yeah.
Will Cady: That's right. That's right. And, you know, that laughter is recognition that there's something really deeply true in that, you know? And I I was really privileged to be raised in an environment, a household that placed a premium on spirituality very, very early. I my father got me my first deck of tarot cards when I was seven years old. He became a, you know, Renzai Zen Buddhist monk, and my mother was a philosopher and a poet, you know, read me William Blake for, you know, children's stories when I was maybe, you know, my my daughter's age right now. and so I have to my surprise, my life and career, and it would seem culture more broadly has bent towards these things, not away from them. That focusing on spiritual practice matters in in ways that I don't think I would have expected. I don't think my parents would have expected, because for them it was countercultural, but today it's much more.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: integrated, right? And like this this there's a there's a story that I participate that's different than the story that other spiritual voices have participated in the past. It used to be that you've got to quit the rat race and join the ashram, but my story's about bringing the ashram to the rat race. And creating a liberated consciousness and sovereignty for the humanity within the systems of work that we actually meet each other in more than most other
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: places. So I I've always kind of walked with that. And I think that I didn't really have the language to articulate it as simply being human. That's
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: actually what it is, right? To to be creative, to be spiritual, it's just to be human. And and and I think we're we're really uncovering that right now as we boil it down and ask what is for the robots and what is for the people.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I was gonna ask you that, is that because is it we're being asked to simply be human because of artificial intelligence, the robots, everything you're talking about? There's so much noise around that at the moment. And you know, I had a I had an interesting debate with someone yesterday about it. They were like y you know, they were talking about AI and everything else. I'm like, it's human first, like it's it's always gonna be human first. And this is the biggest opportunity I think in in history where we we can we can lead and like you talk about, bring the ashram into the rat race. Be more sp you know, practice more spirituality, have more, you know, soul, more soulfulness within businesses, within leadership, within society. And yet it does feel like though there's just this, it's almost like a and y and I could be wrong here, it does there does feel like there's a bit of a tug of war at the moment and in where I where I I guess align myself, or or do you disagree?
Will Cady: No, I mean we're all wrestling with it, you know? I think that we we end up at work because we have to find our place in the world and
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: then pretty quickly our jobs become our identities and then we have a hard time separating who we are from what we do. And now we're in this moment where what we do is very under threat, but we f forget that we were brought to what we do because of who we are. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: so we can go back to who we are and we can rediscover what we inherently have value for as human beings. And that can be redeployed into the world in more meaningful ways. But that is profound change and it's really, really uncomfortable. So, you know, what kind of gives me a little bit of air cover personally during this time is becoming a dad anyways. Like it's all changing anyways. So it's like you know, I
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Just like you.
Will Cady: yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's deeply uncomfortable. but I have because of the time that I've spent in these creative practices, these spiritual practices, I have faith. I have faith that it's going to lead somewhere. I have faith in myself that I have something within me that is of inherent value that can always be deployed meaningfully in the world, no matter how it changes.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I love that. And I love that you were vul were vulnerable enough to say like it is uncomfortable, you know, y it's a first time parent, you know, you're you're learning something new every single day. It sounds like you you've obviously had a A stellar career at Reddit and and what an opportunity there, like you say, back in two thousand and sixteen. And yet there's work and there's business and then there's being becoming a father, and it's completely different to any form of, you know, I guess from a leadership perspective, it's it's a different form of a leadership, right? Like it's a completely different role. And yet then
Will Cady: Surely yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: sorry, you go, yeah.
Will Cady: It certainly is. Yeah. I you know, there's there's an identity shift to become a parent and you know, thinking about holding space for other people's becoming and the kind of, you know, service of that. That's where I discover, you know, the the texture of my prior selfishness, just like how I wasn't really equipped to do that for people the way that I'm starting to become equipped to do that for
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: people now because I'm doing it for my daughter every single day. Wherever she crawls around, my arms are on either side, you know. Yeah. But I'm not,
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Watching out. Totally.
Will Cady: you know, I'm letting her I'm letting her figure it out, right? And so that's
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hmm.
Will Cady: that's that's the lowest common denominator of a profoundly important skill.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incredible. Tell me, tell me about let's come back to Reddit again because like I said, you know, you you've gone on this journey with Reddit. You you're ahead of your time essentially, and it's more important than ever the message, you know, r you know remember the human, the humanity piece here. When did you decide that you were going to take the shift yourself or make the big step and and start your own I mean, obviously write your book, Which Ways North? Like, did you start to go on a on a pilgrimage yourself around what do I do next? How I create a movement myself. Like you've come into Reddit is I mean, at Reddit and I'm like, what a community. I love the values they hold. I love everything about that, you know, community in terms of what it stands for and the cr and the ability to be so creative, but also protect authenticity. And I and I'm not getting it all right, right? But I've certainly looked into it myself because I've thought about it. Well, how do I play in that space? And how does my own business and brand play in that space?
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: You clearly are building Or scaling something bigger in terms of heel movement and and integrating a lot of what you've obviously learnt and achieved within Reddit? Like what was your was it that you were at a point where you were like, which way is North? Like where did it all start to come from?
Will Cady: Yeah, 2020 was when that began. So I ended up leaving Reddit in 2024. So about four years after I think the first seed of the next thing was planted. And I think that there were a couple things going on. One was massive and happened to everybody, but the seeds of our future were planted in every human heart in 2020.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: that time was profoundly impactful on the planet as far as like everybody being forced into rest and restoration, isolation, going into the inner world, seeing a little bit of what actually matters to you, right? And for some people that was incredibly difficult. Actually
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: For everybody, that was incredibly difficult. What am I saying? Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. I still have sh I still have triggers from COVID at times, but just little things, right? Like just little noises or little things around like we were in the I was in the world's longest lockdown, so you know, it was crazy. Melbourne. Melbourne
Will Cady: Yeah, right, right.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: was, yeah.
Will Cady: So Reddit as a company culture incubated the person that I was becoming. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm-hmm.
Will Cady: I began to teach meditations to some of the other, you know, people at the company digitally over Zoom, I began to lead meditations and the meditation subreddit on the platform itself. And there were tools that I had in my disposal since my childhood that were now being asked for in a new way. And it felt very aligned with the ethos of remember the human because this is, you know, this is our humanity that we're that we're bringing to the table here, you know, as people working for this company. And it wasn't about increasing productivity. It was about making better decisions. And there's a very subtle nuance between those two ideas, but it's very important. And I started to really think about what this system, you know, kind of means. And I wasn't just doing it at Reddit. I was doing it for different membership communities that I was involved in, you know, different. family and friends, I mean, because everything was remote, so we were like alone, but we were all like accessible
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: A line
Will Cady: to each other in this new way. So a new version of my humanity started to to kind of show itself in 2020. That's the first thing then that was happening. The second thing that was happening is the world was starting to really get the message that we were conveying about the importance of community at
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hm.
Will Cady: Reddit. And this is my I think my greatest strength and my greatest weakness is being an artist. And as an artist, when the audience has heard what you have to say, you kinda don't want to say it again.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Sorry.
Will Cady: So You know, that's that's something that, you know, I'm working with it right now, especially being an author that released a book and I'm like, okay, I released it, it's done now, right? But that's not obviously how things
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No.
Will Cady: work. Yeah. And so, but as far as what what I started to grow towards, I was like, Wow. We really got somewhere with this. We're getting somewhere with this. Like people are seeing the importance of this story that we've been conveying. What is the next one? And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: the next one was coming from this place. Of of healing. And I wrote about it in the book. In the book, there's a scene where you meet me as this creative strategist, you know, future caster, predicting the trends of culture at the consumer electronic show in Las Vegas, talking with a high-powered corporate individual who asks me to do my job and says, What's next? And I just have a moment of Deep authenticity, where rather than going through my prepared talking points, I just spoke from my heart and was like, this
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Bang.
Will Cady: wheel is about to stop turning. This is all about to change, and and we've got to stop changing the world and start healing the world. And that was in that moment actually did happen, and that was in January of 2020. And so that was the the first rays of dawn of this new. paradigm that I got the download on and was like, okay, that's that's what I need to to work towards. And to my benefit, Reddit was an incredibly gracious place to make that transition. you know, we we really honored each other through the subsequent, you know, few years that that took place since that that shift happened because I still had a lot of value to deliver. The company still had a lot of things to prove. I still
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: had a lot of things to prove, but they were in alignment with each other.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: And then eventually the company went public. I dressed up like the Monopoly guy on Wall Street. I became a stock image that every time the company does well, they show an image of me in a top hat in front of a logo. And that was my punctuation mark where I like, okay, I think I'm complete here. Yeah, that's that's not something that we're taught in in modern culture.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely. No.
Will Cady: We were taught about how to start things, but not how to complete them. And so that's
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: when I I took the risk and I was like, okay, it's time to really dive into being, doing as that person that I started becoming in 2020 and figuring out exactly what that means.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Well, it's it's incredi it's an incredible it's incredible what you've just shared. And and a couple of things have popped up for me. Like the word completion. Like, you know, I've always been told and and I'm You know, I've from a spiritual perspective, I'm continuing to to evolve and follow the path. And you know, I've always been told by my shamans and my various spiritual teachers and and you know, integrated doctors that be you should always complete things in life. And you sh and and yet we don't always complete things right. And we're we're in too much of a hurry to move on to the next thing and and I think it's so true that, you know, i to do the full circle and complete to then go on to the next next cycle. It is a continuous cycle, but there's always a needing to be a completion point. It's like having continuous finishing lines if you ask me. Do you like
Will Cady: I think a part of it is that we're not really conditioned to to see those moments where completion is available to us because we hold on so tightly to what we identify ourselves with as like a job title, right?
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hmm.
Will Cady: And I had have, still have, a mentor who taught me a really powerful practice, which is every year. Talk with yourself and either fire yourself or rehire yourself.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: Be really honest. Like, are you still in this job that you have? Are you still right for this job that you have? And it's okay. It's okay to say that you're not. And it's incredibly gracious to to to open yourself up to that possibility. Because then what ends up happening is you can have completion because you can now be in alignment with the beginning of a new story and you can wrap up a story with grace. And that's that's how I feel about my time and and my relationship with the company and the people there still has that grace. It continues to be a a source of you know, it's a source of love is what it is.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. And so then what so then in terms of healer movement and everything you're doing, what are you what are you noticing in business and in leaders right now? Like if we come if we pull it right back to healing, like are we are we at a critical point in time, do you think from a like from a I guess I I I mean I I always look around and it everyone feels so exhausted, everyone's feels so overwhelmed. We've got this complete cognitive overload. We're also off I I mean, I'm seeing a lot of people that are just offloading to AI and it's like Like y you know, coming back to remembering even yourself as a human, if you know what I mean. Like what do you think that are the biggest, I guess, challenges? you know, I I prefer to look at it from an opportunities perspective right now. At this very important you know, point in time, what do you know what do you think is the biggest opportunity?
Will Cady: Well, we're still in the breaking down phase of things
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: and that's that's gonna keep going until twenty twenty eight. Things are gonna stabilize in twenty twenty eight and we'll start to be able to put the pieces in place to have what I think is gonna be an absolutely ripping decade in the twenty thirties. I think the twenty thirties are gonna be marvelous. And I would invite people to consider that long term perspective and
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: think about like what if What if I could thrive in a couple of years, but it's still gonna be hard for the time between now and then, you know. If that were true, what actions would we take? I don't think that leaders are conveying messages like that, if I can just be totally honest. I think that
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: I think that leaders are contributing to the hysteria, contributing to the fear, turning the temperature up. And making people feel undervalued when this is the time that they need to be f made to feel adequately valued, if not overvalued, to remember the humanity of people so that they as individuals can have those appropriate conversations with themselves of should I hire myself for what I'm doing right now again, or should I fire myself because
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: You're allowed to change. And the world is changing right now. And so that's the
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: resistance is the world is changing, the environment is changing, the conditions are changing, but we're still holding on.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. I I had that observation about myself the last twenty four hours. Like I was going through my own
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: little realization around the last few years and just looking at like you know, like I guess my own journey and and I w and then I was just sat with it and went, actually, no, this is this is perfect. Nothing nothing's perfect. But from a tiny perspective, I went back and I looked at twenty twenty, like whatever year it was, like three years ago, and I'm I'm right where I'm meant to be right now. But yet there's this real like you say pattern.
Will Cady: It doesn't mean it feels good.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No, it doesn't. It feels uncomfortable as shit to be honest. Like it's like today I'm like, you know, one minute I'm fine, the next minute I'm like churning inside going. But it's just coming back to that continuous need to surrender, you know, like and I think that that's really challenging when you are you are someone who is, you know, wanting to be a trailblazer, a change agent, you know, change things dramatically. And yet as humans, individuals, leaders, we're we can only go as the pace we're meant to be going at. Like that we're all on it we're all on an individual journey, right? It's just then how do you how do you put it into the collective is something
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: that I think about a lot.
Will Cady: Yeah, and I, you know, I started off this conversation talking about the best decisions that I've made, you know, entering a relationship with my wife, working at a company like Reddit. There's a few other things. None of them were by my own design. Nothing that has ever happened for me that really worked out was by my own design. And that has taught me to relax into the not knowing. And I'm not saying that I'm good at that because I I, you know, feel the tension and the discomfort every day. But when I like really sit down and not just think about it, but actually breathe into it for a second. And I look at it like, okay, even being logical, looking backwards, when things really worked out, how did they happen? It was like, it always just happened you know, not linearly but quantumly, exponentially, just the
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm, mm.
Will Cady: convergence of incredible circumstances that has given me plenty of reason to believe in being held by the universe.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. So why twenty twenty eight, Will? What's your why have you got this like why have you got this I mean, is it is it like is it a proven scientific number? Like is it is twenty twenty eight a number that we're like or is that from a spiritual? Because I know that, you know, we're coming into next year this year's like the year of the horse, next year I think it's the Phoenix or whatever. There's something, you know, so like and twenty twenty eight, so why what is what is like around twenty twenty eight?
Will Cady: Yeah, it's definitely not scientific. It is creative. It is art. It is spiritual. And and that's
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: that's actually a big thing for me is like not trying to translate spirituality or art to science, that
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: they just stand in their own truth for their own reasons and their own process. but that said, there are a couple of things that are working in that direction. So one of them is just to pass through it briefly is that that will be the changeover in administration in America, one way or the other. And so this time of this sort of leadership will in some way change, will will pass. And so that means we will enter a new paradigm that would begin to shape what that next decade is. That is a truth that we can bank on to a reasonable degree.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: Another thing that is happening, a truth that we can bank on to a reasonable degree, is gonna sound even more out there, but is true. We're going to have established a lunar base on the moon. The Artemis V mission will have done that if they stay on mission and things work, right?
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm-hmm.
Will Cady: And then we will begin shuttling back and forth. And that will become a regular aspect of our lives. And the idea of someone who has been to the moon becomes more available. It might be somebody that you meet at a conference. It might be a friend. It might be somebody, you know, from your hometown, that you're like, Yeah, they're going to the moon. And that's a part of life now. So
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: all of a sudden that gives us a future to hope for.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: We're seeing some of the early previews of things coming into form right now that are, you know, breakthroughs in like mRNA cancer vaccines and
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: some of the processes that AI tools are working towards on the hard science challenges
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: are beginning to bear results. And even if they can do that stuff very quickly, there are bottlenecks. for how that can actually make its way to the average person. Because, you know, for example, an mRNA cancer vaccine has to go through trials. That takes time. Like you you can't rush, you know, what you bake in the oven, basically, a similar type of thing. here in my home in Los Angeles, a little bit more, you know, kind of personal, we're gonna have the Olympics in the year 2028.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, it's exciting.
Will Cady: And that is going to be a huge shift in energy for us because
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely.
Will Cady: the city has to get some infrastructure stuff together in order
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: for that to actually happen. And so there will be an after, right? And that kind of begins in 2028. So those are some tangible currents, some threads that I'm looking at that converge to make catalytic change possible. Because
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: that's something that I learned about culture when I was at Reddit is that it's not trend lines that dictate the future. It's catalysts.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: predictable catalysts that change the conversation, like GameStop, like COVID. These are things that the lines weren't pointing to, but they changed the lines that came after.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: That's why I don't like that's why like when everyone talks about this talks about AI, like it's been around for many, many years. It's not it's I it
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I don't think it's catalytic, like in terms of it's it's revolutionary, right? But it yeah, I don't know, like I could be wrong here. I just I I think if anything, if you come right back to humanity and what's p what becomes possible as part of the as part of this revolution that we're in. That's that No.
Will Cady: And we haven't gotten there yet with it, that's the thing. You know, it's just been, you know, the water's th been boiling, but it hasn't actually started to bubble yet, right? So that is is I think what is going to to to take place. It's going to start bearing fruit. Because right
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: now there's a lot of anger about it. Because what is it for? It's hard to see what it's for other than making the rich richer.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Hm. Yeah. Exactly.
Will Cady: And so once it becomes about things that materially impact people's lives, become new stories that people can believe in, also it becomes not tech for tech's sake, but tech for traveling the solar system, curing cancer,
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: extending our lives, right? Becomes a means to a greater end, then our our our culture can organize itself around hope.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And that's not what we have right now. We're not organized around that.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No. No. at all. It's like the it's like there's it's like two it's and and and it's basically coming into my final few questions for you because there's still a a a lot of resistance to what we're talking about here. And and and so I guess one one question I had for you was what do you what do you say to leaders? Like y you know, you talk about technological ambition and and how and applying and interconnecting moral ambition as well. There is a resistance to everything we're talking about here. Like what do you say to people when you notice the resistance I mean for me a lot of it is fear, right? And I know when I'm resisting something I'm like, what am I what am I fearful of here? Like what if I what if I lean into that? Like how do you yeah, how do you what do you what do you say to people when you're noticing the resistance towards the healer movement, if you like.
Will Cady: Well, the resistance is the path, the obstacle is the way. In my book, the opening chapter says anxiety is creativity, ready to be transmuted. So whatever it is that you are feeling the most resistance for, that's The place to go into and you know kind of begin to turn it and see what it wants to express, right? If if necessity is the mother of invention, then then anxiety is the father of creation, right? Like this is something inside that wants to be on the outside. And that's what makes you human, is you're feeling something that is making you
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely.
Will Cady: uncomfortable. And and we are here to metabolize it, right? So when I talk about the future that we Are going to win in 2028. The way that's going to be done politically in this country is based upon who are the human beings that can metabolize what they're feeling into the right stories that the public can believe in and decide that
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: they want to put their attention towards and contribute to. Same thing with the business owners and the entrepreneurs. And so that's what I teach leaders to do, not on a national scale, but on a company organizational scale. scale is step number one, where's the problem? It's here because it's everywhere. And so if you think that everything is going great, then you're probably missing something, right? Because
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: even if things are great inside your walls, outside your walls, like, you know, temperature is literally rising. And so then it becomes an exercise using some of the methods that are in the book of identifying what your values are.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And from those values, determining how you make decisions.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: Do we go fast or do we go slow? Do
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: we use AI or do we not use AI? Where is that a yes? Where is that a no? And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Mm.
Will Cady: why? And that I think is a very interesting one right now because I don't think that enough leaders have sufficiently asked that question and invited themselves to realize that it doesn't have to be a wholesale yes or no, but that it can be a segmented yes or no. Or not now or never, right? And there are only it's only from their humanity that they can get those answers. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: so then it's about writing your personal code of ethics. And if you are leading an organization, you've got to codify that code of ethics. And you share it with your organization, with your people, with your managers. You ritualize it, right? You code it into the way that you gather, the way that you do things. If you are using AI systems, you literally put it in your AI systems. You write it down. This is how we make decisions.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Will Cady: And s and so there's an enormous amount of work to be done on that front in terms of teaching leaders how to lead with their humanity because too many of them coming out of the business schools have been taught to lead according to systems. You know, the
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely.
Will Cady: the the leaders of today, the leaders of yesterday, they had to be logical thinkers, data thinkers that could take a limited amount of information and extrapolate decisions from a limited data set. But now leaders have an overabundance of information. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: so it's a different skill set. You need to be able to synthesize it and select it and say, this is what we're gonna pay attention to and this is what we're not. And it's basically story craft because you take infinite possibilities and you have to plot a line that defines your story and your character.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: A nonlinear line at that too. I mean I think it you know, subtractive psychology comes into play a lot here for me. Like, you know, that
Will Cady: Right.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: the ability to subtract, subtract, subtract.
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Do you th are we ever do you think we're ever I mean, if I think about evolution, if I think about change, catal catalytic change, change in general, myself, like I've been on my own evolution f you know, since I had my burnout many, you know, I think I'm into my f fourth year now of the journey and what you know, asking all the questions around what's my purpose, etcetera, et cetera. Do you think that Healing, do you think that we'll ever be fully healed or do you is it an ongoing like you you're creating you've obviously got the healer movement and I know that 2028, like what's your like I I guess what I'm where I'm going with you is a pulling apart resistance to resistance to healing, right? For me it's you it's like you know, fragility, you know, like I think about fragility, res yeah, yeah, fragility and then resilience and then becoming anti-fragile. I guess I'm just resistant. is one extreme, healing's another. Do we keep coming
Will Cady: Mm-hmm. That's a beautiful question. I
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: yeah, do we go back and forth, back and forth? Is it a continuous? Like what do you yeah, what's your I guess that that was my gonna be my final question. Now I feel like we could go on for ages but 40 minutes you didn't know
Will Cady: Well, I think that that's
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: you've got to get to Meadow and your wife and all of that.
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: I think that's the evolution's engine. That's the engine of evolution is is the
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm-hmm.
Will Cady: the process of healing. And, you know, there's the principle in tech companies of moving fast and breaking things. My principle is there can be no growth without repair. And that they are bound to each other, that there is always something to repair behind us in order for us to grow towards what is in front of us. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: so that's that's the healing aspect of it. And the human condition is to be Wounded. I mean, we're never satisfied. Never. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: We think we are we are for a second. We are like today we're like, yeah, everything's good and then next day it's like the like you say, the
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: anxiety, the creativity kicks in, you're like, I gotta do this, I gotta do this. Yeah. Yeah.
Will Cady: Exactly. Exactly. And there's a reframe happening that I'm seeing in a lot of different spaces right now. it's kind of expressed as the the well-being movement versus the wellness movement. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: it's born out of the principle that you can always get better.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And if that means getting out of bed or writing a symphony, they're on the same journey of being a human. You can always get better. And in the same way, you know, on the spiritual side of things, like striving for enlightenment, you can just keep on ascending. It never stops. There's always more. More, more, more, right? And so I think that it's less a question for people of whether or not to make healing a part of their life. And more a question of choosing your tempo, choosing your speed. How fast do you want to evolve?
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Love it. Yeah, love it. I think we I think you certainly have to choose your tempo and listen to what the universe is telling you about which tempo it's going to give you, also. I think that sometimes we I've
Will Cady: Mm-hmm. And slow slow is great. That's the other thing.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: learned that I'm learning the hard way about slow and I'm not being one of that type A personality, you know, like
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: go, go, go, and then the universe goes, No. I'm like, okay, all right, let's just go with this to that, you know. It's like
Will Cady: I mean, same. See yeah, right there with you.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. it kills me. I I I did this just quickly I did this Chamaozacal ceremony in Mexico just last week. I don't know if you've ever done one and it's it's you g it's like a little dome and super spiritual, it's mind, body, spirituality, and they have a like a shaman and there's four doors and essentially it's like door one is the surrender of what you're going to surrender to. Door two is then what you what intentions are you going to set. Door three is and quite literally like it's It's steaming in there, it's black, it's like dark, like it's completely dark and and and these doors are like these like cloths that come like they go that you sit in it for like I don't know twenty, thirty minutes, and then the next cloth comes on and the heating goes up. And anyway, the other day I was doing it and I was like, I'm really the more you tap in to it the more you tap within and the more you surrender and the more you just I guess I don't know, I guess for me it was just really understanding. That slow is the way to go. And you know, what do I say? I always say now slow down to speed up because when you slow
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: down your evolution and and your evolution changes rapidly, it's just that you don't notice it as much because physically or externally, materially, things don't look different, but actually you're completely different on the inside. Mm-mm.
Will Cady: That's a gorgeous process too. That frame of those four doors, that gives you a lot to continue to work
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: with.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Highly recommend it, Will. I highly recommend it. Any have I got any final questions for you? I don't think I do. I think that like I've asked as much as much as I possibly can. Do you have any I mean, ancient wisdom is a part of your p you know your philosophy and what you bring to leaders, you bring to organizations. Is there any I guess final words of wiz ancient wisdom that you would love to share with the audience right now? Just I guess in terms of yeah, the world is quite upside down and there's a lot of chaos out there, there's a lot of noise in terms of from an ancient wisdom practice. Is there something that you would recommend that you could practice on a daily basis that could help with your own healing journey if you like?
Will Cady: Well, one is a frame of mind that what I have gleaned from having one foot in the world of the ancients and the other foot in the world of the artificial, if we wanna alliterate, is that the when you step into a circle and convene with ancient wisdom, it's about seeing the world as it is.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And when you step into a line, a square of the artificial of the modern world and you convene with its elders, it's about seeing the world as it could be.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: One of those leads to delusion. But we are in a time of reconciling the overlap between those two beliefs,
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: ways of being. And I myself am a proponent of where they intersect. I think that there's something really important for us at the place where they meet.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I agree. Couldn't agree with you more. An eight infinity as well. Like it's all, yeah. Interesting. I've got it, I've got I've got some I've got an I've got an infinity. Yeah, I've got
Will Cady: Ooh, yeah, that's what it turns into, the infinity sign. Nice.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: it here. I've got it, I've got it like stamped here on me. So like I'm all about the infinity. Will what a an what a fascinating and incredible conversation. I wrote down so many takeaways for myself. The audience will no doubt have tons of insights out of this conversation. Thank you so much for your time. How do we find out more about you? How do we find out more about where do we get your book from? Can you please hold your book up again? I love the the cover. There you go. Which way
Will Cady: Which way is north? Yeah, and I will also I want to emphasize this. So I wrote this in twenty twenty two, released it in twenty twenty-three, one of the last books to be written before AI. Opening line on its jacket: as artificial intelligence gains an increasing foothold in our work and our lives, the need to find and maintain our uniquely human creativity is growing more urgent. That has become incredibly true since this was written, and the idea of human Creativity is a whisper in this book when I first wrote it, and now it's a roar. So I highly recommend picking it up because I do believe that it provides not some answers, but some questions that can help people navigate that. And you can find me at willkdy.com, W-I-L-L-C-A-D-Y, and at Will Katie on most social media platforms.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incredible, thank you so much. I need to read your book. I might read it on my way home. It's a fourteen hour flight back to Australia later this week, so I'll I'll I'll get the book before I go.
Will Cady: for it. Audiobook too. It's available on Audible and Spotify and it's got my own original music in the chapter breaks too. So I narrate, so
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: okay.
Will Cady: that's an option.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Love it. Love it. Well, thank you so much. A big happy birthday to Meadow this coming Sunday. No
Will Cady: thank you.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: doubt you're having a little birthday party for her. So enjoy first
Will Cady: Course. Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: birthday. What a what a milestone. Congratulations to do to you and your wife. And thank you so much for your time. I'm gonna say Numsday and yeah, have a wonderful Monday evening and rest of the week. Thank
Will Cady: You too. Thank you.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: you.
Will Cady: Hi there, thank you for having me.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: thank you. my goodness, how hot is it here in LA, Will? Like, what's going on? Is this just like a
Will Cady: Mm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: heat wave? Or like I've come from Melbourne where it's freezing and here I am hitting the summer vibes.
Will Cady: yeah. I mean my library's kind of in our attic and it's at least eighty five in this room right now.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I don't even know what eighty five is in Celsius. I need to get my Fahrenheit and Celsius is right.
Will Cady: Right, right, of course. twenty five, maybe close to thirty. I don't know. Is thirty like the death level? I'm
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I'm thinking thirty-five degrees for all the Australian listeners out there, but I am gonna say a big shout out to all everybody from around the world to be kind hello to you all. See, we do I do go global, I d I do come to places.
Will Cady: We are global.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: We are global. Will and I aren't together today. That's okay though. We're we're close by and I've been really excited to chat to you, Will, because you have quite the journey, quite the story, and talk about,
Will Cady: Thank you.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: you know, great success and what you're doing now. And I I'm really keen to drill into it. And I'm gonna start with this. You are the father, first time dad of a little daughter called Meadow, who actually has her first birthday this coming Sunday. How's that been?
Will Cady: Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's that's the main job right now. That's the priority.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: humbling is the first word that comes to mind. you know, moments going back and forth between absolute terror and absolute sublime, you know, fulfillment of life's purpose and meaning, you know, and s that can happen within the span of sixty seconds.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, totally. Totally. Is she crawling? Is she walking yet?
Will Cady: She is so close to walking. So
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Okay.
Will Cady: she's able to balance standing upright. she loves to do this little thing where she like stands up on my lap facing me and then she kind of like grabs the collar of my shirt like she's trying to steal my lunch money and she just like holds on to it and then is able to balance for a few seconds.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: it. So cute. So cute. It gives you good perspective, doesn't it? Because you do have quite the story. You're the author of a book that is called Which Way is North as well as a podcast. And have you got your book in front of you? You want do you want to pull your book up? Yeah. Yeah.
Will Cady: Yeah. I do. Yep, here it is. Folks that are watching on video, there's the cover. Available anywhere books are sold. Which way is north?
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, amazing. We'll get into that shortly. So, like I said, you're the author and pod author of the of the book Which Ways North as well as a podcast host. Are you having
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: a little bit of a break as you're giving it to your first year with Meadow? You're an artist,
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: a cultural strategist, and you're the founder of Heel Movement. And I'm gonna say movement is V N T. I love the abbreviation
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: there. And you bring together creativity, technology, and ancient wisdom to put humanity back at the center of progress. And absolutely love
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: that because you know what a time. To have humanity at the center of progress. However, an inflection point emerged for you, and that was when you had meant spent many years, Will, at Reddit, an incredible community as well. We're helping shape a billion-dollar business, deepened your explor exploration of the role of culture, creativity, and human connection play in what we build. And so today you're championing Will, from what I understand, the humanities alongside technological progress. I was kept tongue tied with that word. Challenging
Will Cady: Ha ha
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: leaders and businesses to make technological ambition with moral ambition and ask better questions about the future we are creating. And ultimately, at the heart and soul of your work is a belief that as technology accelerates, our humanity must evolve alongside it. I couldn't say I couldn't
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: agree with you on that more. And that is through meaning, values, creativity, and deeper human connection. So, years at Reddit, I'm always you know, my eyes lit up when Jen reached out. I reached out to Jen and she said, you should meet Will. You know, he's he's he was at Reddit and a billion dollar company and and an incredible community and what you've learned there and then to then go and start your own a movement. Tell us a little bit about you know what you learned at Reddit and then obviously the transition. Yeah, I'll I'll hand it over to you.
Will Cady: So there's a few choices that I've made in my life that were wise, even if I, you know, didn't have the absolute capacity to make the best decisions always. top of the list is, you know, being with my wife as my life partner and all
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: that has come with that. And actually I think, you know, to give her credit of the person that she made me into, that gave me the facility to make another great choice, which was to work at Reddit at a time when you had to be a little crazy to do that.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm-hmm.
Will Cady: back in twenty sixteen it was, as we called it as a company, Utopian Craigslist. It was not exactly an appealing business the way that it looks today, but I understood deeply that there was something really powerful that was happening on that corner of the internet and that that power was something that a lot of people didn't yet understand.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And what I got from the other side of that journey was a confidence in my foresight that I have a intuition that I can tap into to make decisions and see things coming before they come to fruition. And what I'm seeing now in that Path is the importance of humanity. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: that doesn't come from nowhere. It comes also from, you know, what Reddit taught me in the same way that, you know, my wife made me a person that could choose Reddit. Reddit made me a person that could choose humanity. Shortly after I started, you know, there's a value at that company. They put a sign on the wall that said, Remember the human. And I want people to really think about that because that was 2016.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, that's cool. Mm.
Will Cady: that I started at this company. And I see a lot of conversation today online in the media about the importance of revisiting our humanity, prioritizing our humanity. And it has this vigor and vitality to it, as though it's a fresh idea. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: that vigor and vitality is great. I I don't want to discredit that. But I do want to point out that it's significant that a company like Reddit was saying that a decade ago.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: Because it indicates
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Before COVID, well, it was even before like it was it was well before COVID and and you know, COVID feels so long ago. Like to
Will Cady: Yeah. Yes.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: to think that you were saying that remember the human.
Will Cady: Yes, exactly, exactly. And so I was I was, you know. obviously younger than I am now, I was at a d different place in my career where I didn't really know I didn't have my foresight dialed in yet. I didn't have my intuition fully clocked. But when I learned of that value remember the human, that articulated the important thing that I knew mattered that that company was building around. You know, in a similar sense that I didn't have like a full view of who I could be before I began my relationship with my wife, but it started to come into focus. And that was also my humanity, right? It's not trite to be talking about my relationship or to be talking about my child and my parenthood in this conversation because all of this is the reservoir of what makes me human.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And there were forces that were emerging on the internet and in business and media and technology, even
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: in those times that are the same forces that we're contending with today that would cause a company like that to say something like Remember the human back then and so it's become even more important now because that story has continued and gotten louder and more dramatic.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: So yeah it has got to more dramatic. There's there's quite a few questions I have here. I want to come right back to intuition because I'm a I I have a really strong sixth sense and and intuition and energetically I've I've studied pranic healing and from an energy sense and you said you you had to work on, you know, like I think when you've got all this external noise and everything happening, we tend to not like hear our intuition. It's only when we go silent or we go within and and and I like to think about it inside out, right? Like getting getting all the answers from within. Tell us tell us a little bit about yeah how you garnered your intuition. Like, was it something that you were like you thought you needed to work on? Like in terms of to get you into, I guess, if we think about remember the human and this humanity piece, like you can't be I I I think there's this whole and I'd love your thoughts on this, like you you if you think about remember the human and and humanity and progress and evolution, if you are an external facing person if if you are you know you operate from the outside in, you can't tap into intuition. You can't you
Will Cady: Yeah, yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: can't remember the human. The value doesn't exist. Like humanity doesn't exist, if you know what I mean. And so I'd love your your perspective on and how you came to go, okay. And it this is Yeah.
Will Cady: Well what I what what I came to learn as my career as a creative professional really blossomed is that creativity is spirituality and drag. It's the same thing just with different wardrobe. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: that. You're giving me all these great like I'm writing all these thumbnails down for you. Like I'm like remember the human. Creativity's spirituality and drag. I'm like, this is great. Yeah.
Will Cady: That's right. That's right. And, you know, that laughter is recognition that there's something really deeply true in that, you know? And I I was really privileged to be raised in an environment, a household that placed a premium on spirituality very, very early. I my father got me my first deck of tarot cards when I was seven years old. He became a, you know, Renzai Zen Buddhist monk, and my mother was a philosopher and a poet, you know, read me William Blake for, you know, children's stories when I was maybe, you know, my my daughter's age right now. and so I have to my surprise, my life and career, and it would seem culture more broadly has bent towards these things, not away from them. That focusing on spiritual practice matters in in ways that I don't think I would have expected. I don't think my parents would have expected, because for them it was countercultural, but today it's much more.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: integrated, right? And like this this there's a there's a story that I participate that's different than the story that other spiritual voices have participated in the past. It used to be that you've got to quit the rat race and join the ashram, but my story's about bringing the ashram to the rat race. And creating a liberated consciousness and sovereignty for the humanity within the systems of work that we actually meet each other in more than most other
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: places. So I I've always kind of walked with that. And I think that I didn't really have the language to articulate it as simply being human. That's
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: actually what it is, right? To to be creative, to be spiritual, it's just to be human. And and and I think we're we're really uncovering that right now as we boil it down and ask what is for the robots and what is for the people.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I was gonna ask you that, is that because is it we're being asked to simply be human because of artificial intelligence, the robots, everything you're talking about? There's so much noise around that at the moment. And you know, I had a I had an interesting debate with someone yesterday about it. They were like y you know, they were talking about AI and everything else. I'm like, it's human first, like it's it's always gonna be human first. And this is the biggest opportunity I think in in history where we we can we can lead and like you talk about, bring the ashram into the rat race. Be more sp you know, practice more spirituality, have more, you know, soul, more soulfulness within businesses, within leadership, within society. And yet it does feel like though there's just this, it's almost like a and y and I could be wrong here, it does there does feel like there's a bit of a tug of war at the moment and in where I where I I guess align myself, or or do you disagree?
Will Cady: No, I mean we're all wrestling with it, you know? I think that we we end up at work because we have to find our place in the world and
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: then pretty quickly our jobs become our identities and then we have a hard time separating who we are from what we do. And now we're in this moment where what we do is very under threat, but we f forget that we were brought to what we do because of who we are. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: so we can go back to who we are and we can rediscover what we inherently have value for as human beings. And that can be redeployed into the world in more meaningful ways. But that is profound change and it's really, really uncomfortable. So, you know, what kind of gives me a little bit of air cover personally during this time is becoming a dad anyways. Like it's all changing anyways. So it's like you know, I
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Just like you.
Will Cady: yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's deeply uncomfortable. but I have because of the time that I've spent in these creative practices, these spiritual practices, I have faith. I have faith that it's going to lead somewhere. I have faith in myself that I have something within me that is of inherent value that can always be deployed meaningfully in the world, no matter how it changes.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I love that. And I love that you were vul were vulnerable enough to say like it is uncomfortable, you know, y it's a first time parent, you know, you're you're learning something new every single day. It sounds like you you've obviously had a A stellar career at Reddit and and what an opportunity there, like you say, back in two thousand and sixteen. And yet there's work and there's business and then there's being becoming a father, and it's completely different to any form of, you know, I guess from a leadership perspective, it's it's a different form of a leadership, right? Like it's a completely different role. And yet then
Will Cady: Surely yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: sorry, you go, yeah.
Will Cady: It certainly is. Yeah. I you know, there's there's an identity shift to become a parent and you know, thinking about holding space for other people's becoming and the kind of, you know, service of that. That's where I discover, you know, the the texture of my prior selfishness, just like how I wasn't really equipped to do that for people the way that I'm starting to become equipped to do that for
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: people now because I'm doing it for my daughter every single day. Wherever she crawls around, my arms are on either side, you know. Yeah. But I'm not,
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. Watching out. Totally.
Will Cady: you know, I'm letting her I'm letting her figure it out, right? And so that's
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hmm.
Will Cady: that's that's the lowest common denominator of a profoundly important skill.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incredible. Tell me, tell me about let's come back to Reddit again because like I said, you know, you you've gone on this journey with Reddit. You you're ahead of your time essentially, and it's more important than ever the message, you know, r you know remember the human, the humanity piece here. When did you decide that you were going to take the shift yourself or make the big step and and start your own I mean, obviously write your book, Which Ways North? Like, did you start to go on a on a pilgrimage yourself around what do I do next? How I create a movement myself. Like you've come into Reddit is I mean, at Reddit and I'm like, what a community. I love the values they hold. I love everything about that, you know, community in terms of what it stands for and the cr and the ability to be so creative, but also protect authenticity. And I and I'm not getting it all right, right? But I've certainly looked into it myself because I've thought about it. Well, how do I play in that space? And how does my own business and brand play in that space?
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: You clearly are building Or scaling something bigger in terms of heel movement and and integrating a lot of what you've obviously learnt and achieved within Reddit? Like what was your was it that you were at a point where you were like, which way is North? Like where did it all start to come from?
Will Cady: Yeah, 2020 was when that began. So I ended up leaving Reddit in 2024. So about four years after I think the first seed of the next thing was planted. And I think that there were a couple things going on. One was massive and happened to everybody, but the seeds of our future were planted in every human heart in 2020.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: that time was profoundly impactful on the planet as far as like everybody being forced into rest and restoration, isolation, going into the inner world, seeing a little bit of what actually matters to you, right? And for some people that was incredibly difficult. Actually
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: For everybody, that was incredibly difficult. What am I saying? Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. I still have sh I still have triggers from COVID at times, but just little things, right? Like just little noises or little things around like we were in the I was in the world's longest lockdown, so you know, it was crazy. Melbourne. Melbourne
Will Cady: Yeah, right, right.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: was, yeah.
Will Cady: So Reddit as a company culture incubated the person that I was becoming. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm-hmm.
Will Cady: I began to teach meditations to some of the other, you know, people at the company digitally over Zoom, I began to lead meditations and the meditation subreddit on the platform itself. And there were tools that I had in my disposal since my childhood that were now being asked for in a new way. And it felt very aligned with the ethos of remember the human because this is, you know, this is our humanity that we're that we're bringing to the table here, you know, as people working for this company. And it wasn't about increasing productivity. It was about making better decisions. And there's a very subtle nuance between those two ideas, but it's very important. And I started to really think about what this system, you know, kind of means. And I wasn't just doing it at Reddit. I was doing it for different membership communities that I was involved in, you know, different. family and friends, I mean, because everything was remote, so we were like alone, but we were all like accessible
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: A line
Will Cady: to each other in this new way. So a new version of my humanity started to to kind of show itself in 2020. That's the first thing then that was happening. The second thing that was happening is the world was starting to really get the message that we were conveying about the importance of community at
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hm.
Will Cady: Reddit. And this is my I think my greatest strength and my greatest weakness is being an artist. And as an artist, when the audience has heard what you have to say, you kinda don't want to say it again.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Sorry.
Will Cady: So You know, that's that's something that, you know, I'm working with it right now, especially being an author that released a book and I'm like, okay, I released it, it's done now, right? But that's not obviously how things
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No.
Will Cady: work. Yeah. And so, but as far as what what I started to grow towards, I was like, Wow. We really got somewhere with this. We're getting somewhere with this. Like people are seeing the importance of this story that we've been conveying. What is the next one? And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: the next one was coming from this place. Of of healing. And I wrote about it in the book. In the book, there's a scene where you meet me as this creative strategist, you know, future caster, predicting the trends of culture at the consumer electronic show in Las Vegas, talking with a high-powered corporate individual who asks me to do my job and says, What's next? And I just have a moment of Deep authenticity, where rather than going through my prepared talking points, I just spoke from my heart and was like, this
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Bang.
Will Cady: wheel is about to stop turning. This is all about to change, and and we've got to stop changing the world and start healing the world. And that was in that moment actually did happen, and that was in January of 2020. And so that was the the first rays of dawn of this new. paradigm that I got the download on and was like, okay, that's that's what I need to to work towards. And to my benefit, Reddit was an incredibly gracious place to make that transition. you know, we we really honored each other through the subsequent, you know, few years that that took place since that that shift happened because I still had a lot of value to deliver. The company still had a lot of things to prove. I still
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: had a lot of things to prove, but they were in alignment with each other.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: And then eventually the company went public. I dressed up like the Monopoly guy on Wall Street. I became a stock image that every time the company does well, they show an image of me in a top hat in front of a logo. And that was my punctuation mark where I like, okay, I think I'm complete here. Yeah, that's that's not something that we're taught in in modern culture.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely. No.
Will Cady: We were taught about how to start things, but not how to complete them. And so that's
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: when I I took the risk and I was like, okay, it's time to really dive into being, doing as that person that I started becoming in 2020 and figuring out exactly what that means.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Well, it's it's incredi it's an incredible it's incredible what you've just shared. And and a couple of things have popped up for me. Like the word completion. Like, you know, I've always been told and and I'm You know, I've from a spiritual perspective, I'm continuing to to evolve and follow the path. And you know, I've always been told by my shamans and my various spiritual teachers and and you know, integrated doctors that be you should always complete things in life. And you sh and and yet we don't always complete things right. And we're we're in too much of a hurry to move on to the next thing and and I think it's so true that, you know, i to do the full circle and complete to then go on to the next next cycle. It is a continuous cycle, but there's always a needing to be a completion point. It's like having continuous finishing lines if you ask me. Do you like
Will Cady: I think a part of it is that we're not really conditioned to to see those moments where completion is available to us because we hold on so tightly to what we identify ourselves with as like a job title, right?
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Hmm.
Will Cady: And I had have, still have, a mentor who taught me a really powerful practice, which is every year. Talk with yourself and either fire yourself or rehire yourself.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: Be really honest. Like, are you still in this job that you have? Are you still right for this job that you have? And it's okay. It's okay to say that you're not. And it's incredibly gracious to to to open yourself up to that possibility. Because then what ends up happening is you can have completion because you can now be in alignment with the beginning of a new story and you can wrap up a story with grace. And that's that's how I feel about my time and and my relationship with the company and the people there still has that grace. It continues to be a a source of you know, it's a source of love is what it is.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. And so then what so then in terms of healer movement and everything you're doing, what are you what are you noticing in business and in leaders right now? Like if we come if we pull it right back to healing, like are we are we at a critical point in time, do you think from a like from a I guess I I I mean I I always look around and it everyone feels so exhausted, everyone's feels so overwhelmed. We've got this complete cognitive overload. We're also off I I mean, I'm seeing a lot of people that are just offloading to AI and it's like Like y you know, coming back to remembering even yourself as a human, if you know what I mean. Like what do you think that are the biggest, I guess, challenges? you know, I I prefer to look at it from an opportunities perspective right now. At this very important you know, point in time, what do you know what do you think is the biggest opportunity?
Will Cady: Well, we're still in the breaking down phase of things
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: and that's that's gonna keep going until twenty twenty eight. Things are gonna stabilize in twenty twenty eight and we'll start to be able to put the pieces in place to have what I think is gonna be an absolutely ripping decade in the twenty thirties. I think the twenty thirties are gonna be marvelous. And I would invite people to consider that long term perspective and
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: think about like what if What if I could thrive in a couple of years, but it's still gonna be hard for the time between now and then, you know. If that were true, what actions would we take? I don't think that leaders are conveying messages like that, if I can just be totally honest. I think that
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: I think that leaders are contributing to the hysteria, contributing to the fear, turning the temperature up. And making people feel undervalued when this is the time that they need to be f made to feel adequately valued, if not overvalued, to remember the humanity of people so that they as individuals can have those appropriate conversations with themselves of should I hire myself for what I'm doing right now again, or should I fire myself because
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: You're allowed to change. And the world is changing right now. And so that's the
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: resistance is the world is changing, the environment is changing, the conditions are changing, but we're still holding on.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. I I had that observation about myself the last twenty four hours. Like I was going through my own
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: little realization around the last few years and just looking at like you know, like I guess my own journey and and I w and then I was just sat with it and went, actually, no, this is this is perfect. Nothing nothing's perfect. But from a tiny perspective, I went back and I looked at twenty twenty, like whatever year it was, like three years ago, and I'm I'm right where I'm meant to be right now. But yet there's this real like you say pattern.
Will Cady: It doesn't mean it feels good.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No, it doesn't. It feels uncomfortable as shit to be honest. Like it's like today I'm like, you know, one minute I'm fine, the next minute I'm like churning inside going. But it's just coming back to that continuous need to surrender, you know, like and I think that that's really challenging when you are you are someone who is, you know, wanting to be a trailblazer, a change agent, you know, change things dramatically. And yet as humans, individuals, leaders, we're we can only go as the pace we're meant to be going at. Like that we're all on it we're all on an individual journey, right? It's just then how do you how do you put it into the collective is something
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: that I think about a lot.
Will Cady: Yeah, and I, you know, I started off this conversation talking about the best decisions that I've made, you know, entering a relationship with my wife, working at a company like Reddit. There's a few other things. None of them were by my own design. Nothing that has ever happened for me that really worked out was by my own design. And that has taught me to relax into the not knowing. And I'm not saying that I'm good at that because I I, you know, feel the tension and the discomfort every day. But when I like really sit down and not just think about it, but actually breathe into it for a second. And I look at it like, okay, even being logical, looking backwards, when things really worked out, how did they happen? It was like, it always just happened you know, not linearly but quantumly, exponentially, just the
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm, mm.
Will Cady: convergence of incredible circumstances that has given me plenty of reason to believe in being held by the universe.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. So why twenty twenty eight, Will? What's your why have you got this like why have you got this I mean, is it is it like is it a proven scientific number? Like is it is twenty twenty eight a number that we're like or is that from a spiritual? Because I know that, you know, we're coming into next year this year's like the year of the horse, next year I think it's the Phoenix or whatever. There's something, you know, so like and twenty twenty eight, so why what is what is like around twenty twenty eight?
Will Cady: Yeah, it's definitely not scientific. It is creative. It is art. It is spiritual. And and that's
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: that's actually a big thing for me is like not trying to translate spirituality or art to science, that
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: they just stand in their own truth for their own reasons and their own process. but that said, there are a couple of things that are working in that direction. So one of them is just to pass through it briefly is that that will be the changeover in administration in America, one way or the other. And so this time of this sort of leadership will in some way change, will will pass. And so that means we will enter a new paradigm that would begin to shape what that next decade is. That is a truth that we can bank on to a reasonable degree.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: Another thing that is happening, a truth that we can bank on to a reasonable degree, is gonna sound even more out there, but is true. We're going to have established a lunar base on the moon. The Artemis V mission will have done that if they stay on mission and things work, right?
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm-hmm.
Will Cady: And then we will begin shuttling back and forth. And that will become a regular aspect of our lives. And the idea of someone who has been to the moon becomes more available. It might be somebody that you meet at a conference. It might be a friend. It might be somebody, you know, from your hometown, that you're like, Yeah, they're going to the moon. And that's a part of life now. So
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: all of a sudden that gives us a future to hope for.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: We're seeing some of the early previews of things coming into form right now that are, you know, breakthroughs in like mRNA cancer vaccines and
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: some of the processes that AI tools are working towards on the hard science challenges
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: are beginning to bear results. And even if they can do that stuff very quickly, there are bottlenecks. for how that can actually make its way to the average person. Because, you know, for example, an mRNA cancer vaccine has to go through trials. That takes time. Like you you can't rush, you know, what you bake in the oven, basically, a similar type of thing. here in my home in Los Angeles, a little bit more, you know, kind of personal, we're gonna have the Olympics in the year 2028.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, it's exciting.
Will Cady: And that is going to be a huge shift in energy for us because
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely.
Will Cady: the city has to get some infrastructure stuff together in order
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: for that to actually happen. And so there will be an after, right? And that kind of begins in 2028. So those are some tangible currents, some threads that I'm looking at that converge to make catalytic change possible. Because
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: that's something that I learned about culture when I was at Reddit is that it's not trend lines that dictate the future. It's catalysts.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: predictable catalysts that change the conversation, like GameStop, like COVID. These are things that the lines weren't pointing to, but they changed the lines that came after.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: That's why I don't like that's why like when everyone talks about this talks about AI, like it's been around for many, many years. It's not it's I it
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: I don't think it's catalytic, like in terms of it's it's revolutionary, right? But it yeah, I don't know, like I could be wrong here. I just I I think if anything, if you come right back to humanity and what's p what becomes possible as part of the as part of this revolution that we're in. That's that No.
Will Cady: And we haven't gotten there yet with it, that's the thing. You know, it's just been, you know, the water's th been boiling, but it hasn't actually started to bubble yet, right? So that is is I think what is going to to to take place. It's going to start bearing fruit. Because right
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: now there's a lot of anger about it. Because what is it for? It's hard to see what it's for other than making the rich richer.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Hm. Yeah. Exactly.
Will Cady: And so once it becomes about things that materially impact people's lives, become new stories that people can believe in, also it becomes not tech for tech's sake, but tech for traveling the solar system, curing cancer,
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: extending our lives, right? Becomes a means to a greater end, then our our our culture can organize itself around hope.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And that's not what we have right now. We're not organized around that.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: No. No. at all. It's like the it's like there's it's like two it's and and and it's basically coming into my final few questions for you because there's still a a a lot of resistance to what we're talking about here. And and and so I guess one one question I had for you was what do you what do you say to leaders? Like y you know, you talk about technological ambition and and how and applying and interconnecting moral ambition as well. There is a resistance to everything we're talking about here. Like what do you say to people when you notice the resistance I mean for me a lot of it is fear, right? And I know when I'm resisting something I'm like, what am I what am I fearful of here? Like what if I what if I lean into that? Like how do you yeah, how do you what do you what do you say to people when you're noticing the resistance towards the healer movement, if you like.
Will Cady: Well, the resistance is the path, the obstacle is the way. In my book, the opening chapter says anxiety is creativity, ready to be transmuted. So whatever it is that you are feeling the most resistance for, that's The place to go into and you know kind of begin to turn it and see what it wants to express, right? If if necessity is the mother of invention, then then anxiety is the father of creation, right? Like this is something inside that wants to be on the outside. And that's what makes you human, is you're feeling something that is making you
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely.
Will Cady: uncomfortable. And and we are here to metabolize it, right? So when I talk about the future that we Are going to win in 2028. The way that's going to be done politically in this country is based upon who are the human beings that can metabolize what they're feeling into the right stories that the public can believe in and decide that
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: they want to put their attention towards and contribute to. Same thing with the business owners and the entrepreneurs. And so that's what I teach leaders to do, not on a national scale, but on a company organizational scale. scale is step number one, where's the problem? It's here because it's everywhere. And so if you think that everything is going great, then you're probably missing something, right? Because
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: even if things are great inside your walls, outside your walls, like, you know, temperature is literally rising. And so then it becomes an exercise using some of the methods that are in the book of identifying what your values are.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And from those values, determining how you make decisions.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: Do we go fast or do we go slow? Do
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: we use AI or do we not use AI? Where is that a yes? Where is that a no? And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm. Mm.
Will Cady: why? And that I think is a very interesting one right now because I don't think that enough leaders have sufficiently asked that question and invited themselves to realize that it doesn't have to be a wholesale yes or no, but that it can be a segmented yes or no. Or not now or never, right? And there are only it's only from their humanity that they can get those answers. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: so then it's about writing your personal code of ethics. And if you are leading an organization, you've got to codify that code of ethics. And you share it with your organization, with your people, with your managers. You ritualize it, right? You code it into the way that you gather, the way that you do things. If you are using AI systems, you literally put it in your AI systems. You write it down. This is how we make decisions.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Will Cady: And s and so there's an enormous amount of work to be done on that front in terms of teaching leaders how to lead with their humanity because too many of them coming out of the business schools have been taught to lead according to systems. You know, the
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, absolutely.
Will Cady: the the leaders of today, the leaders of yesterday, they had to be logical thinkers, data thinkers that could take a limited amount of information and extrapolate decisions from a limited data set. But now leaders have an overabundance of information. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: so it's a different skill set. You need to be able to synthesize it and select it and say, this is what we're gonna pay attention to and this is what we're not. And it's basically story craft because you take infinite possibilities and you have to plot a line that defines your story and your character.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: A nonlinear line at that too. I mean I think it you know, subtractive psychology comes into play a lot here for me. Like, you know, that
Will Cady: Right.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: the ability to subtract, subtract, subtract.
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Do you th are we ever do you think we're ever I mean, if I think about evolution, if I think about change, catal catalytic change, change in general, myself, like I've been on my own evolution f you know, since I had my burnout many, you know, I think I'm into my f fourth year now of the journey and what you know, asking all the questions around what's my purpose, etcetera, et cetera. Do you think that Healing, do you think that we'll ever be fully healed or do you is it an ongoing like you you're creating you've obviously got the healer movement and I know that 2028, like what's your like I I guess what I'm where I'm going with you is a pulling apart resistance to resistance to healing, right? For me it's you it's like you know, fragility, you know, like I think about fragility, res yeah, yeah, fragility and then resilience and then becoming anti-fragile. I guess I'm just resistant. is one extreme, healing's another. Do we keep coming
Will Cady: Mm-hmm. That's a beautiful question. I
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: yeah, do we go back and forth, back and forth? Is it a continuous? Like what do you yeah, what's your I guess that that was my gonna be my final question. Now I feel like we could go on for ages but 40 minutes you didn't know
Will Cady: Well, I think that that's
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: you've got to get to Meadow and your wife and all of that.
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: I think that's the evolution's engine. That's the engine of evolution is is the
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm-hmm.
Will Cady: the process of healing. And, you know, there's the principle in tech companies of moving fast and breaking things. My principle is there can be no growth without repair. And that they are bound to each other, that there is always something to repair behind us in order for us to grow towards what is in front of us. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: so that's that's the healing aspect of it. And the human condition is to be Wounded. I mean, we're never satisfied. Never. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: We think we are we are for a second. We are like today we're like, yeah, everything's good and then next day it's like the like you say, the
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: anxiety, the creativity kicks in, you're like, I gotta do this, I gotta do this. Yeah. Yeah.
Will Cady: Exactly. Exactly. And there's a reframe happening that I'm seeing in a lot of different spaces right now. it's kind of expressed as the the well-being movement versus the wellness movement. And
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: it's born out of the principle that you can always get better.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And if that means getting out of bed or writing a symphony, they're on the same journey of being a human. You can always get better. And in the same way, you know, on the spiritual side of things, like striving for enlightenment, you can just keep on ascending. It never stops. There's always more. More, more, more, right? And so I think that it's less a question for people of whether or not to make healing a part of their life. And more a question of choosing your tempo, choosing your speed. How fast do you want to evolve?
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Love it. Yeah, love it. I think we I think you certainly have to choose your tempo and listen to what the universe is telling you about which tempo it's going to give you, also. I think that sometimes we I've
Will Cady: Mm-hmm. And slow slow is great. That's the other thing.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: learned that I'm learning the hard way about slow and I'm not being one of that type A personality, you know, like
Will Cady: Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: go, go, go, and then the universe goes, No. I'm like, okay, all right, let's just go with this to that, you know. It's like
Will Cady: I mean, same. See yeah, right there with you.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah. it kills me. I I I did this just quickly I did this Chamaozacal ceremony in Mexico just last week. I don't know if you've ever done one and it's it's you g it's like a little dome and super spiritual, it's mind, body, spirituality, and they have a like a shaman and there's four doors and essentially it's like door one is the surrender of what you're going to surrender to. Door two is then what you what intentions are you going to set. Door three is and quite literally like it's It's steaming in there, it's black, it's like dark, like it's completely dark and and and these doors are like these like cloths that come like they go that you sit in it for like I don't know twenty, thirty minutes, and then the next cloth comes on and the heating goes up. And anyway, the other day I was doing it and I was like, I'm really the more you tap in to it the more you tap within and the more you surrender and the more you just I guess I don't know, I guess for me it was just really understanding. That slow is the way to go. And you know, what do I say? I always say now slow down to speed up because when you slow
Will Cady: Mm-hmm.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: down your evolution and and your evolution changes rapidly, it's just that you don't notice it as much because physically or externally, materially, things don't look different, but actually you're completely different on the inside. Mm-mm.
Will Cady: That's a gorgeous process too. That frame of those four doors, that gives you a lot to continue to work
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah.
Will Cady: with.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Highly recommend it, Will. I highly recommend it. Any have I got any final questions for you? I don't think I do. I think that like I've asked as much as much as I possibly can. Do you have any I mean, ancient wisdom is a part of your p you know your philosophy and what you bring to leaders, you bring to organizations. Is there any I guess final words of wiz ancient wisdom that you would love to share with the audience right now? Just I guess in terms of yeah, the world is quite upside down and there's a lot of chaos out there, there's a lot of noise in terms of from an ancient wisdom practice. Is there something that you would recommend that you could practice on a daily basis that could help with your own healing journey if you like?
Will Cady: Well, one is a frame of mind that what I have gleaned from having one foot in the world of the ancients and the other foot in the world of the artificial, if we wanna alliterate, is that the when you step into a circle and convene with ancient wisdom, it's about seeing the world as it is.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: And when you step into a line, a square of the artificial of the modern world and you convene with its elders, it's about seeing the world as it could be.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: One of those leads to delusion. But we are in a time of reconciling the overlap between those two beliefs,
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Mm.
Will Cady: ways of being. And I myself am a proponent of where they intersect. I think that there's something really important for us at the place where they meet.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Yeah, I agree. Couldn't agree with you more. An eight infinity as well. Like it's all, yeah. Interesting. I've got it, I've got I've got some I've got an I've got an infinity. Yeah, I've got
Will Cady: Ooh, yeah, that's what it turns into, the infinity sign. Nice.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: it here. I've got it, I've got it like stamped here on me. So like I'm all about the infinity. Will what a an what a fascinating and incredible conversation. I wrote down so many takeaways for myself. The audience will no doubt have tons of insights out of this conversation. Thank you so much for your time. How do we find out more about you? How do we find out more about where do we get your book from? Can you please hold your book up again? I love the the cover. There you go. Which way
Will Cady: Which way is north? Yeah, and I will also I want to emphasize this. So I wrote this in twenty twenty two, released it in twenty twenty-three, one of the last books to be written before AI. Opening line on its jacket: as artificial intelligence gains an increasing foothold in our work and our lives, the need to find and maintain our uniquely human creativity is growing more urgent. That has become incredibly true since this was written, and the idea of human Creativity is a whisper in this book when I first wrote it, and now it's a roar. So I highly recommend picking it up because I do believe that it provides not some answers, but some questions that can help people navigate that. And you can find me at willkdy.com, W-I-L-L-C-A-D-Y, and at Will Katie on most social media platforms.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Incredible, thank you so much. I need to read your book. I might read it on my way home. It's a fourteen hour flight back to Australia later this week, so I'll I'll I'll get the book before I go.
Will Cady: for it. Audiobook too. It's available on Audible and Spotify and it's got my own original music in the chapter breaks too. So I narrate, so
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: okay.
Will Cady: that's an option.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: Love it. Love it. Well, thank you so much. A big happy birthday to Meadow this coming Sunday. No
Will Cady: thank you.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: doubt you're having a little birthday party for her. So enjoy first
Will Cady: Course. Yeah.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: birthday. What a what a milestone. Congratulations to do to you and your wife. And thank you so much for your time. I'm gonna say Numsday and yeah, have a wonderful Monday evening and rest of the week. Thank
Will Cady: You too. Thank you.
Bee Murray, Bee Formless: you.
