Joanne Kay: Hello and welcome to Attach Together, the podcast where we explore attachment theory and what it really means in practice for counsellors, psychotherapists and psychologists. This podcast is created by the team at Optima who deliver the level five and level seven diplomas in attachment-based psychotherapy. This is a space designed to help you deepen your understanding, reflect on your clinical work, and stay connected to the heart of attachment informed practice. I'm Joanne Kay, your host for this episode. I'm a psychotherapist, a supervisor and trainer, and I also teach on the level five courses at Optima. Now, before we begin, just a quick note, our episodes include a CPD certificate. If you'd like to access that, you can visit our website, or check the show notes if you're listening on Spotify. Okay so joining me today are two guests. So there's Lyn Coombs here with me. So Lyn is an attachment based and person centred counsellor specialising in bereavement, domestic abuse and also works with the parents of neurodivergent children and carers. And I also have Alison Cunningham, who is an integrative counsellor and works with young people, often with care experience and neurodivergent people as well. So we all three of us have something in common relating to today's topic, which is we're all parents of neurodivergent children. aren't we? So hopefully that will make for an interesting discussion. It's already interesting that we're all parents of neurodividend children and therapists at the same time. We've both got those two hats that we wear. So I'll bring you in, Lynne, first of all. I feel like this is a huge topic that we could go down lots of different rabbit holes with. And I just wanted to ask you about your own experience of being a parent of a neurodivergent child and maybe what you feel that brings when you then work with those parents as clients.
Lyn: think for me it's having a really good foundation and base of understanding and as a parent to be believed. As you say I've got two children both on the spectrum. One is ASD or ASC as it's also known depending if you want to use disorder or condition after the autism spectrum. My other child is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. So it's always been really difficult to juggle both because the needs are very different. But it's also then given me a clear understanding that it's nowhere near the same for everybody. It's such a vast spectrum. It's like being in a DJ booth and all the little levers and nodules that they got for bass and treble and everything else. They're all set at different levels, so they're very different. And yeah, so just understanding that when a parent comes in, whatever they say, it's okay. And it's real and to believe them, because I feel as a parent, a lot of the time when I was trying to explain to people how difficult it was. you know, the trials and tribulations, you're kind of met with this like, really? Did that really happen? Or is that really that bad? Is it really that difficult? So as a therapist, I just feel that that's the important part for a parent is to be heard.
Joanne Kay: I love that. And it made, that really resonates with me. And it's that, there's that old saying, isn't there, that if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. And that kind of goes for all neurodivergence. It's, there's kind of collections of traits and things, but it's. it's so unique to the person. And that yeah, there's something in there about shame and judgment, I think, around what you were talking about with just being believed is so important. Which sounds fundamental in therapy, doesn't it? But there's something... There's something about that with parenting neurodivergent children, maybe it's a societal pressure or a societal impression of what goes on for neurodivergent people or what opinions are of diagnoses. So there's something really about providing that safe base, I guess, isn't it, of. I believe you and I hear you and having that empathy.
Lyn: Yeah absolutely and I think it certainly increases that level of empathy and being able to hold it in the room. As you were saying there's lots of societal inputs that people judge behaviour you know and it's our parenting that then gets attacked. first, it's generally, or certainly in my experience, it was always my parenting that was attached, you need to do another parenting course. And other people just not understanding the challenges that were involved. And all the decision making, even, you know, society, when you ask for help, when you ask for... a referral to look at a possible is there something here that needs to be diagnosed. There's that whole like, well, he's just naughty or she's just
Joanne Kay: Mm.
Lyn: naughty. And it's like, no, I think there's something more to this. And then when you get the diagnosis, it doesn't end there, particularly more so with ADHD, because there is that whole then question that opens up with medication. should you have medication, should you be medicating your child? I certainly ran into opposing viewpoints on that. But I loved a poem I read, I don't know who wrote it, but it explained that a child with ADHD is like every child trying to carry like 50 marbles. But a neurotypical child has a carrier bag and a neurodiverse child has a carrier bag with a great big hole in the bottom. and when they have medication, it sews up that hole a little bit. They'll still be dropping marbles, they'll still be chasing around and be a bit chaotic, but it alleviates some of the symptoms to a point where they are better able to function.
Joanne Kay: I love that analogy. The marbles. And it of really illustrates almost the privilege of having you, being able to walk around with a carrier bag. I guess what I'm kind of applying that analogy to is almost, and you could apply it to lots of different aspects of neurodivergence, but for me, I'm thinking of kind of holding lots of different sensory stimuli while
Lyn: Mmm.
Joanne Kay: kind of going through the world and actually. it feels like everybody else can kind of hold it in, hold it together. But actually I've got one thing coming, I've got one marble coming from over here, one coming from over here, one coming from over here and they're all slipping out. So yeah, really.
Lyn: Yeah, you've dropped you've then dropped your carrier bag because you've
Joanne Kay: Yeah
Lyn: Had a hole in it anyway, but you've dropped it because you're so busy picking
Joanne Kay: you
Lyn: up all your marbles
Joanne Kay: Yes, yeah I love that. Great, yeah I feel like I'm going to use that. I'm going take that. Yeah I'll try and find out where that poem is from. You'll have to send it to me.
Lyn: Mmm.
Joanne Kay: So Alison, I'll bring you in now because this is kind of relating to some research that you've done into parents of neurodivergent children, kind of from
Alison Cunningham: Yeah.
Joanne Kay: from an attachment perspective. tell me more, tell us more about that.
Alison Cunningham: So I love Lynn's analogies, so I think they're they're brilliant actually. So well done. But yeah, my research was based on parenting styles, and that relationship between parents and and neurodivergent children, looking from the attachment style. And I think at the time, you know, I was asking for a personal reason as well, and I think most parents of neurodiverse children kinda go through this. mean I'm I'm a little bit lucky, mine are older now. but it's was did I parent the right way? Did I give them what they needed? or did my own stuff kinda come like step in now? so yeah, I was kind of looking at, if you've got an avoidan or a secure attachment, how that would impact your apparently stress levels. And overall, it I think that it became a lot bigger. I think it became a lot more about like you were saying, society, the support out there, cultural differences, and all these other elements were kind of coming in. And I what I kind of what I resonated with with a lot of it was actually you can have an avoidant or a a secure attachment. And yes, it will impact you slightly, but it's more those external factors, that lack of support, that lack of understanding, that lack of acceptance. That impacts the parent more. that they're trying to, you know, understand their own child. and it's interesting because when I see it come in the room from parents, I think one of the sometimes, not always, but one of questions is, did I did I kind of do something to bring this on with my child? did I do the perfect pregnancy? Did I do this? Did you know all these questions? And actually kinda looking at that from the attachment side, where where's that kind of coming from? And giving them the space to actually work through that and recognise that, there are times and I say this to a lot of parents, you will always love your children. Always. But there's times maybe you don't like what they do. we always love our children and society tells us we should love our children. And yes, but sometimes we're not overly proud of the behaviour and the stigma that comes along with that when you're trying to do your weekly shopping or you've suddenly been called to the teacher
Lyn: you
Alison Cunningham: again and all of these things. And kind of working on this research, I think the attachment fell quite far behind and it was more about like I say how society kind of treats parents of new other birth and that expectation that's put on parents to be a good parent, whatever that looks like. giving parents the space to recognise that attachment, how that attachment might come in, in regards to their response. So as the child's behaviour is getting worse, their stress levels kind of escalating and how they feed into each other, but more so recognising all these external factors and how that impacts the parent. And for me, like Joe was saying, listen to their truth. But also allowing them the space to sometimes say that they're not enjoying this. the the other side of actually, no parent I think actually goes into pregnancy going like I would like a neurodiverse child. so they're kinda going through that grieving process themselves as well of what this perfect baby would have been. of what they're kind of living with and they they're almost doing that because as the child gets older and that neurodiversity comes out in different ways at different stages, it almost feels like they relieved that again and again and again. So, for me it's about giving them that space to really sit and kind of say, My experiences impact me this way, but actually, I don't always enjoy every element of this and and I feel having the space to feel that that's okay to say is is
Joanne Kay: Yeah.
Alison Cunningham: really powerful as well. So just kind of adding on what what Lynn was kind of saying now, 'cause yeah, acceptance is brilliant, but I also think that non judgement, that real open space to say both sides of being a parent.
Joanne Kay: Mmm,
Lyn: Yeah, and like you say
Joanne Kay: and it's like
Lyn: that isolation from society and that impact because I certainly experienced with the behaviour that the children are expressing, you do become isolated from your own peers and sometimes your own family members because they don't want, they don't want it. They don't want to be around those behaviours or they're finding it embarrassing or hard to manage. don't get as much, perhaps, maybe relatives or friends don't want to offer some help to look after your child so that you can attend an appointment or, there's not many people that will step forward and be like, do you know what, if you need to go and do that or if you need a break, I'll look after them for the day. You go and take care
Alison Cunningham: Yeah, no.
Lyn: of yourself. So you've got that added isolation on top of your grieving. what you hoped parenthood would be.
Joanne Kay: Yeah and there's something about as well, I mean there's loads in there that we'll come back to but there's something about because often we can become the person who is solely attuned to that child that kind of narrows that circle of... them being independent but also them being able to go with somebody else for a bit and give us a break as well,
Lyn: Yeah, a village to raise a child. Our village is very small.
Joanne Kay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Alison Cunningham: Yeah. It kinda takes away that that that saying, isn't it? It takes a village.
Joanne Kay: Mmm, yeah.
Alison Cunningham: because when it becomes neurodivergent that village becomes very, very small. So yeah.
Joanne Kay: Yeah. Yeah. And I just wanted to come back to as well, because you both kind of touched on that societal kind of blame that can, even if nobody's saying it, somebody, someone might be literally saying it, but it feels, can feel like it's kind of there, the judgment of you as a parent and then... that being internalized into self-blame, like you were saying, Alyssa, you know, is there something that I did wrong early on? Am I not controlling or parenting this behavior correctly? Is this all my fault? So it's kind of coming from outside and then can be coming from inside as well. And it's making me think about you know, attachment theory and being an attachment based therapist and thinking we've actually got to be really careful about how we see good, you know, what good attachment or healthy attachment or secure attachment, what that looks like, because it can look very different in a neurodivergent family or a neurodivergent caregiver child. relationship.
Alison Cunningham: Massively. Massively.
Lyn: And it's certainly
Alison Cunningham: And I think it's it's it's fundamental that yeah, you you are aware of it. But again, I think we're looking at it from that unique perspective. because it Linda, you can have a really secure attachment, but then having a neurodiverse child does that shake it a little bit? Does it kind of make you start second guessing stuff? and stuff like so yeah, I always look at it from that that almost that existential point of view. You know, it's that phon phenomenology, it's it's their experience and where they're kind of coming from. but yeah it's funny when you were talking about whether we hear that message, you know, explicitly or not. I think there's a lot of education needs to be put out there to a lot of professionals. I one thing I always remember And I'm going back, I mean like I say my eldest is now thirty, so I'm going back to primary school. And, always kinda waiting outside the classroom for your child to be brought out. But the teacher standing at the door and almost is doing this to me, calling me to the front. And so all the parents would know straight away, her son's done it again.
Joanne Kay: That's such a familiar... familiar scenario to me, Alison. Don't know about you,
Lyn: Hehehehehe
Alison Cunningham: And it it's like walkershire, isn't it? It feels like
Joanne Kay: Lynne, but I'm relating heavily to that.
Alison Cunningham: Mm, it just feels like a walk of shame. You're like, here we go, what's he done? but it's it's even silly things like that that kind of reinforce those feelings that we have as parents,
Lyn: Yeah, that feeling of, I failing as a parent? Because you start to compare, it's a natural thing, we all do it. You start looking at other parents and how their children are behaving, they're following instructions, they're disciplined. And you start questioning, well, where have I gone wrong? And people might not have seen what's occurred prior. My son was mute until he was four. We utilised Makaton and sign language. So to know what he needed and the frustrations that he would express very physically were a real everyday thing because he got so angry and so frustrated. that attachment and having to be so attuned, being able to read him. being able to anticipate because that's the other thing I think we live in that anticipation of okay that's that's might happen that's gonna start off this that and you're firefighting all the time.
Joanne Kay: Mm.
Alison Cunningham: But I think you develop a sixth sense, don't you, with your children. You kind
Lyn: Hmm.
Alison Cunningham: of I used to say with mine, there was a perfect moment where you could step in. I mean all of mine are on the spectrum, but my middle son is also ADHD and REC. so he would have the explosive outbursts. and I used to say you caught him in that moment, you could de escalate very
Lyn: Mm.
Alison Cunningham: quickly. But if you miss that moment, you miss that look. You had to ride the storm out.
Lyn: Or if somebody interrupted and then pressed the big red button that sent it going. It's like no, just leave me to deal with it please.
Alison Cunningham: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Kay: Someone trying to help.
Alison Cunningham: Yeah.
Lyn: Yes.
Alison Cunningham: But yeah, 'cause you do you tune into your child, don't you, massively. And I think that's really underrated for neurodivergent parents, how how in tune they become
Joanne Kay: Mmm.
Alison Cunningham: with their child. and that, you know, I kind of look at it as a superpower for parents with neurodivergent
Lyn: Mm.
Alison Cunningham: children, because they're a lot more in some cases a lot more attuned than parents with neurotypical children.
Joanne Kay: Yeah,
Lyn: Yeah.
Joanne Kay: because it kind of, has to go way beyond language, doesn't it?
Alison Cunningham: Mm. Yeah.
Lyn: We're like the SAS version of parenting.
Joanne Kay: I like that Lin, yeah, love
Alison Cunningham: Yeah,
Joanne Kay: that.
Alison Cunningham: yeah. As long as there's no mud to go through and
Lyn: Hehehehehe
Joanne Kay: Sometimes there is, sometimes there definitely is. Okay,
Alison Cunningham: Well yeah.
Joanne Kay: let's have a little break and then we'll come back and do our dilemma. So this is the dilemma part of the podcast. that we'll go into now. So we have this regular dilemma feature where we take a hypothetical scenario and just use it to think through what that might look like in the room and what we do in that therapist's shoes. So this is our fictional dilemma. So a client says parenting their neurodivergent child leaves them constantly overwhelmed, guilty. and afraid of getting it wrong. Kind of links to what we've been talking about, doesn't it? They spend much of therapy talking about their child, but struggle to identify their own feelings or needs. So you're both nodding like, yeah relate to this one maybe.
Lyn: you
Joanne Kay: And I guess yeah it's kind of how do we work with that because certainly for me as a neurodivergent parent I know that talking about that and talking about my child does take up a lot of my... personal therapy space when I have personal therapy.
Lyn: Mm-hmm.
Joanne Kay: And I guess it's. How do we? keep it focused on that client, that parent's feelings without, and I guess this is especially relevant to us as we're also parents of neurodivergent children. I guess the danger is we get lost in kind of being there with them in being a parent in a way that shifts focus on to what's going on for the child and trying to get to the bottom of that rather than what's going on for the client
Alison Cunningham: Yeah. I think for me it's about kind of understanding is there something preventing them? So i e you know if we go back like I say to the societal expectations and and this, that and the other, how are they actually feeling about being a parent of a neurodiverse child? Yeah, they might not actually be sitting too comfortably with their own feelings around it at the moment. So it's I think for me it's kind of allowing them to To know that all feelings are welcome, you know, and and almost explaining that as parents, any parent on the planet, we can all have very mixed feelings towards our children. and so almost introducing that space to them for what what the purpose is for, and building that relationship and that trust up. And hopefully that would kind of then, you know, through through that experience they. they do start to kind of hone in, but sometimes it is just about listening, sometimes about what their child's experiencing. So that's almost out of their system. So
Joanne Kay: Yeah.
Alison Cunningham: then they can then focus on themselves.
Lyn: I was thinking that it's very much like transferable skills in the sense of, you know, being so attuned to our children. We're looking out for so many different things. It's what sounds are there, what smells are there, what the weather's doing, what their body temperature is. There's so many different things. And I think when I'm with a client, it's kind of not excluding anything, but being aware of everything. trying to like you say build the relationship so encourage the the relationship in the sense of it's a safe place and if they want to talk about the child if that's their need sometimes we need that safe space to actually because I I certainly found as a parent I would edit what I told other people I would sugarcoat it a little bit because I didn't want people to know the the real brutal reality of perhaps what I was going through or witnessing with my child. So to have a space where you can actually just be real and I often find as well reassuring parents that or anyone in my room, I don't mind what language you use. I want you to use the language that makes sense for you because I need to know it in your words. If that means swearing. then swear. As long as it's not directed at me in an abusive way, that's fine. And sometimes the relief that comes and they can just like start expressing how it
Joanne Kay: Yeah.
Lyn: actually really feels and be angry. know, anger is also one of those emotions that we're very much taught is a wrong thing and it's not to be expressed. But it's not, it's about how it is expressed. It's very important. You know, it's part of our attachment survival strategy. as well as other emotions and inequality to other emotions and allowing that. And what's also come into mind for me is the name it to tame it.
Joanne Kay: Yes. Yep.
Lyn: So actually, allowing that space to talk about the child allows the processing of all of that. And therefore, once you've built the relationship, once they've started processing those experiences and how they fit, the feelings will come. And I think it's being patient and sitting with them in that and then explore
Joanne Kay: Yeah
Lyn: the feelings.
Alison Cunningham: But I think it's also worth pointing it, you know, counsellors, we're not just hearing what they're saying, you know.
Lyn: Mm-hmm.
Alison Cunningham: So they can be verbally talking about the child and this, that and the other, but actually we're looking at the the body language and and that gives us a huge indication about how they're feeling around that. If they disappear in the chair, if they kind of start almost kind of coming up in the chair. We're looking at all those different cues. So we've got a real understanding. of what the feelings are behind it. and we can kind of use a bit of immediacy in the room in regards to I'm noticing you're talking about this your child's experience here, here, here. But I actually noticed how you was when you was discussing that, So kind of bringing that in to show them that we're we're not just hearing the words, we're seeing them the whole picture for them.
Lyn: Mm.
Joanne Kay: Yeah, and it's that superpower again, isn't it, of we know how to catch a moment, we know how to be attuned to other signs of dysregulation and things going on under the surface. We've got an eye out for that all the haven't we? So yeah, it's really... And what you were saying Lynne was around just allowing that space for the full spectrum of emotion without shame because shame is
Lyn: Mmm.
Joanne Kay: massive here isn't it that societal
Lyn: And I think...
Joanne Kay: pressure
Lyn: Yeah, and I think as well there's an element of bringing in that you can, that it's normal to have a combination of emotions. You can have very much joy and pride in your child and still be distressed and guilty. And we are able as humans to have simultaneous opposing, conflicting emotions.
Joanne Kay: So it's like a space to both and you know anger doesn't mean bad parent Mourning for the expectations that you might have had That didn't happen doesn't mean you don't love your child and everything that they are It's kind of yeah being able to hold both sides of that seesaw
Alison Cunningham: Yeah. I also think it's about holding allowing that space for them. I think for a lot of parents, you you've got that added layer as well that they're not just trying to navigate their way through their feelings and experiences with their own child, but also professionals and all of these these other people. So I think that also adds another layer and being able to because at the end of the day, if they're feeding a lot of ways to a lot of people. professionals, they're now sitting in front of you. Almost
Lyn: Mm.
Alison Cunningham: trying to you know, yes, it's a professional relationship but you're coming at it from a different angle. and that can also might can be a barrier but also a place to start breaking that down.
Lyn: and also being mindful of the impact it has on relationships, significant relationships, be it with your partner, your husband or wife or immediate family.
Alison Cunningham: Or even other s other children.
Lyn: Yes, siblings. And your relationship with the siblings and them and their relationships with their siblings.
Alison Cunningham: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think for Massey for years I was told, Patrick's your favourite. Patrick wasn't my favourite. He was just the most he was the loudest.
Lyn: Hehehehehe
Alison Cunningham: yeah, so it to a lot of people it it felt like well it seemed like he became my favourite, he wasn't, they just needed my attention in very different ways.
Joanne Kay: Hmm, yeah.
Lyn: Mmm.
Alison Cunningham: but people don't see that and and sometimes the The children don't see that either, you
Joanne Kay: Hmm.
Alison Cunningham: know. So massively the relationship
Joanne Kay: Yeah. Okay. Well, we're kind of coming to an end now. And I wonder I might ask if you want our listeners to leave with something from this conversation, what would you leave them with at this point?
Alison Cunningham: Doing amazing. And that's it. We can only do what we can do, but always be known it's the best at the moment.
Joanne Kay: Thank you guys I think that draws us to an end on that wonderful note. thank you for joining us today on Attach Together and we'll see you next time. If you'd like to learn more about our Level 5 and Level 7 diplomas in attachment-based psychotherapy, you can find full details at optimaattachment.co.uk. And that's also where you can download that CPD certificate for the time spent listening to us today. And this is available for all of our episodes. So do go and check them out. If you're listening on Spotify, there's a link in the show notes as well. Thank you very much. Goodbye.
Lyn: think for me it's having a really good foundation and base of understanding and as a parent to be believed. As you say I've got two children both on the spectrum. One is ASD or ASC as it's also known depending if you want to use disorder or condition after the autism spectrum. My other child is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. So it's always been really difficult to juggle both because the needs are very different. But it's also then given me a clear understanding that it's nowhere near the same for everybody. It's such a vast spectrum. It's like being in a DJ booth and all the little levers and nodules that they got for bass and treble and everything else. They're all set at different levels, so they're very different. And yeah, so just understanding that when a parent comes in, whatever they say, it's okay. And it's real and to believe them, because I feel as a parent, a lot of the time when I was trying to explain to people how difficult it was. you know, the trials and tribulations, you're kind of met with this like, really? Did that really happen? Or is that really that bad? Is it really that difficult? So as a therapist, I just feel that that's the important part for a parent is to be heard.
Joanne Kay: I love that. And it made, that really resonates with me. And it's that, there's that old saying, isn't there, that if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. And that kind of goes for all neurodivergence. It's, there's kind of collections of traits and things, but it's. it's so unique to the person. And that yeah, there's something in there about shame and judgment, I think, around what you were talking about with just being believed is so important. Which sounds fundamental in therapy, doesn't it? But there's something... There's something about that with parenting neurodivergent children, maybe it's a societal pressure or a societal impression of what goes on for neurodivergent people or what opinions are of diagnoses. So there's something really about providing that safe base, I guess, isn't it, of. I believe you and I hear you and having that empathy.
Lyn: Yeah absolutely and I think it certainly increases that level of empathy and being able to hold it in the room. As you were saying there's lots of societal inputs that people judge behaviour you know and it's our parenting that then gets attacked. first, it's generally, or certainly in my experience, it was always my parenting that was attached, you need to do another parenting course. And other people just not understanding the challenges that were involved. And all the decision making, even, you know, society, when you ask for help, when you ask for... a referral to look at a possible is there something here that needs to be diagnosed. There's that whole like, well, he's just naughty or she's just
Joanne Kay: Mm.
Lyn: naughty. And it's like, no, I think there's something more to this. And then when you get the diagnosis, it doesn't end there, particularly more so with ADHD, because there is that whole then question that opens up with medication. should you have medication, should you be medicating your child? I certainly ran into opposing viewpoints on that. But I loved a poem I read, I don't know who wrote it, but it explained that a child with ADHD is like every child trying to carry like 50 marbles. But a neurotypical child has a carrier bag and a neurodiverse child has a carrier bag with a great big hole in the bottom. and when they have medication, it sews up that hole a little bit. They'll still be dropping marbles, they'll still be chasing around and be a bit chaotic, but it alleviates some of the symptoms to a point where they are better able to function.
Joanne Kay: I love that analogy. The marbles. And it of really illustrates almost the privilege of having you, being able to walk around with a carrier bag. I guess what I'm kind of applying that analogy to is almost, and you could apply it to lots of different aspects of neurodivergence, but for me, I'm thinking of kind of holding lots of different sensory stimuli while
Lyn: Mmm.
Joanne Kay: kind of going through the world and actually. it feels like everybody else can kind of hold it in, hold it together. But actually I've got one thing coming, I've got one marble coming from over here, one coming from over here, one coming from over here and they're all slipping out. So yeah, really.
Lyn: Yeah, you've dropped you've then dropped your carrier bag because you've
Joanne Kay: Yeah
Lyn: Had a hole in it anyway, but you've dropped it because you're so busy picking
Joanne Kay: you
Lyn: up all your marbles
Joanne Kay: Yes, yeah I love that. Great, yeah I feel like I'm going to use that. I'm going take that. Yeah I'll try and find out where that poem is from. You'll have to send it to me.
Lyn: Mmm.
Joanne Kay: So Alison, I'll bring you in now because this is kind of relating to some research that you've done into parents of neurodivergent children, kind of from
Alison Cunningham: Yeah.
Joanne Kay: from an attachment perspective. tell me more, tell us more about that.
Alison Cunningham: So I love Lynn's analogies, so I think they're they're brilliant actually. So well done. But yeah, my research was based on parenting styles, and that relationship between parents and and neurodivergent children, looking from the attachment style. And I think at the time, you know, I was asking for a personal reason as well, and I think most parents of neurodiverse children kinda go through this. mean I'm I'm a little bit lucky, mine are older now. but it's was did I parent the right way? Did I give them what they needed? or did my own stuff kinda come like step in now? so yeah, I was kind of looking at, if you've got an avoidan or a secure attachment, how that would impact your apparently stress levels. And overall, it I think that it became a lot bigger. I think it became a lot more about like you were saying, society, the support out there, cultural differences, and all these other elements were kind of coming in. And I what I kind of what I resonated with with a lot of it was actually you can have an avoidant or a a secure attachment. And yes, it will impact you slightly, but it's more those external factors, that lack of support, that lack of understanding, that lack of acceptance. That impacts the parent more. that they're trying to, you know, understand their own child. and it's interesting because when I see it come in the room from parents, I think one of the sometimes, not always, but one of questions is, did I did I kind of do something to bring this on with my child? did I do the perfect pregnancy? Did I do this? Did you know all these questions? And actually kinda looking at that from the attachment side, where where's that kind of coming from? And giving them the space to actually work through that and recognise that, there are times and I say this to a lot of parents, you will always love your children. Always. But there's times maybe you don't like what they do. we always love our children and society tells us we should love our children. And yes, but sometimes we're not overly proud of the behaviour and the stigma that comes along with that when you're trying to do your weekly shopping or you've suddenly been called to the teacher
Lyn: you
Alison Cunningham: again and all of these things. And kind of working on this research, I think the attachment fell quite far behind and it was more about like I say how society kind of treats parents of new other birth and that expectation that's put on parents to be a good parent, whatever that looks like. giving parents the space to recognise that attachment, how that attachment might come in, in regards to their response. So as the child's behaviour is getting worse, their stress levels kind of escalating and how they feed into each other, but more so recognising all these external factors and how that impacts the parent. And for me, like Joe was saying, listen to their truth. But also allowing them the space to sometimes say that they're not enjoying this. the the other side of actually, no parent I think actually goes into pregnancy going like I would like a neurodiverse child. so they're kinda going through that grieving process themselves as well of what this perfect baby would have been. of what they're kind of living with and they they're almost doing that because as the child gets older and that neurodiversity comes out in different ways at different stages, it almost feels like they relieved that again and again and again. So, for me it's about giving them that space to really sit and kind of say, My experiences impact me this way, but actually, I don't always enjoy every element of this and and I feel having the space to feel that that's okay to say is is
Joanne Kay: Yeah.
Alison Cunningham: really powerful as well. So just kind of adding on what what Lynn was kind of saying now, 'cause yeah, acceptance is brilliant, but I also think that non judgement, that real open space to say both sides of being a parent.
Joanne Kay: Mmm,
Lyn: Yeah, and like you say
Joanne Kay: and it's like
Lyn: that isolation from society and that impact because I certainly experienced with the behaviour that the children are expressing, you do become isolated from your own peers and sometimes your own family members because they don't want, they don't want it. They don't want to be around those behaviours or they're finding it embarrassing or hard to manage. don't get as much, perhaps, maybe relatives or friends don't want to offer some help to look after your child so that you can attend an appointment or, there's not many people that will step forward and be like, do you know what, if you need to go and do that or if you need a break, I'll look after them for the day. You go and take care
Alison Cunningham: Yeah, no.
Lyn: of yourself. So you've got that added isolation on top of your grieving. what you hoped parenthood would be.
Joanne Kay: Yeah and there's something about as well, I mean there's loads in there that we'll come back to but there's something about because often we can become the person who is solely attuned to that child that kind of narrows that circle of... them being independent but also them being able to go with somebody else for a bit and give us a break as well,
Lyn: Yeah, a village to raise a child. Our village is very small.
Joanne Kay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Alison Cunningham: Yeah. It kinda takes away that that that saying, isn't it? It takes a village.
Joanne Kay: Mmm, yeah.
Alison Cunningham: because when it becomes neurodivergent that village becomes very, very small. So yeah.
Joanne Kay: Yeah. Yeah. And I just wanted to come back to as well, because you both kind of touched on that societal kind of blame that can, even if nobody's saying it, somebody, someone might be literally saying it, but it feels, can feel like it's kind of there, the judgment of you as a parent and then... that being internalized into self-blame, like you were saying, Alyssa, you know, is there something that I did wrong early on? Am I not controlling or parenting this behavior correctly? Is this all my fault? So it's kind of coming from outside and then can be coming from inside as well. And it's making me think about you know, attachment theory and being an attachment based therapist and thinking we've actually got to be really careful about how we see good, you know, what good attachment or healthy attachment or secure attachment, what that looks like, because it can look very different in a neurodivergent family or a neurodivergent caregiver child. relationship.
Alison Cunningham: Massively. Massively.
Lyn: And it's certainly
Alison Cunningham: And I think it's it's it's fundamental that yeah, you you are aware of it. But again, I think we're looking at it from that unique perspective. because it Linda, you can have a really secure attachment, but then having a neurodiverse child does that shake it a little bit? Does it kind of make you start second guessing stuff? and stuff like so yeah, I always look at it from that that almost that existential point of view. You know, it's that phon phenomenology, it's it's their experience and where they're kind of coming from. but yeah it's funny when you were talking about whether we hear that message, you know, explicitly or not. I think there's a lot of education needs to be put out there to a lot of professionals. I one thing I always remember And I'm going back, I mean like I say my eldest is now thirty, so I'm going back to primary school. And, always kinda waiting outside the classroom for your child to be brought out. But the teacher standing at the door and almost is doing this to me, calling me to the front. And so all the parents would know straight away, her son's done it again.
Joanne Kay: That's such a familiar... familiar scenario to me, Alison. Don't know about you,
Lyn: Hehehehehe
Alison Cunningham: And it it's like walkershire, isn't it? It feels like
Joanne Kay: Lynne, but I'm relating heavily to that.
Alison Cunningham: Mm, it just feels like a walk of shame. You're like, here we go, what's he done? but it's it's even silly things like that that kind of reinforce those feelings that we have as parents,
Lyn: Yeah, that feeling of, I failing as a parent? Because you start to compare, it's a natural thing, we all do it. You start looking at other parents and how their children are behaving, they're following instructions, they're disciplined. And you start questioning, well, where have I gone wrong? And people might not have seen what's occurred prior. My son was mute until he was four. We utilised Makaton and sign language. So to know what he needed and the frustrations that he would express very physically were a real everyday thing because he got so angry and so frustrated. that attachment and having to be so attuned, being able to read him. being able to anticipate because that's the other thing I think we live in that anticipation of okay that's that's might happen that's gonna start off this that and you're firefighting all the time.
Joanne Kay: Mm.
Alison Cunningham: But I think you develop a sixth sense, don't you, with your children. You kind
Lyn: Hmm.
Alison Cunningham: of I used to say with mine, there was a perfect moment where you could step in. I mean all of mine are on the spectrum, but my middle son is also ADHD and REC. so he would have the explosive outbursts. and I used to say you caught him in that moment, you could de escalate very
Lyn: Mm.
Alison Cunningham: quickly. But if you miss that moment, you miss that look. You had to ride the storm out.
Lyn: Or if somebody interrupted and then pressed the big red button that sent it going. It's like no, just leave me to deal with it please.
Alison Cunningham: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Kay: Someone trying to help.
Alison Cunningham: Yeah.
Lyn: Yes.
Alison Cunningham: But yeah, 'cause you do you tune into your child, don't you, massively. And I think that's really underrated for neurodivergent parents, how how in tune they become
Joanne Kay: Mmm.
Alison Cunningham: with their child. and that, you know, I kind of look at it as a superpower for parents with neurodivergent
Lyn: Mm.
Alison Cunningham: children, because they're a lot more in some cases a lot more attuned than parents with neurotypical children.
Joanne Kay: Yeah,
Lyn: Yeah.
Joanne Kay: because it kind of, has to go way beyond language, doesn't it?
Alison Cunningham: Mm. Yeah.
Lyn: We're like the SAS version of parenting.
Joanne Kay: I like that Lin, yeah, love
Alison Cunningham: Yeah,
Joanne Kay: that.
Alison Cunningham: yeah. As long as there's no mud to go through and
Lyn: Hehehehehe
Joanne Kay: Sometimes there is, sometimes there definitely is. Okay,
Alison Cunningham: Well yeah.
Joanne Kay: let's have a little break and then we'll come back and do our dilemma. So this is the dilemma part of the podcast. that we'll go into now. So we have this regular dilemma feature where we take a hypothetical scenario and just use it to think through what that might look like in the room and what we do in that therapist's shoes. So this is our fictional dilemma. So a client says parenting their neurodivergent child leaves them constantly overwhelmed, guilty. and afraid of getting it wrong. Kind of links to what we've been talking about, doesn't it? They spend much of therapy talking about their child, but struggle to identify their own feelings or needs. So you're both nodding like, yeah relate to this one maybe.
Lyn: you
Joanne Kay: And I guess yeah it's kind of how do we work with that because certainly for me as a neurodivergent parent I know that talking about that and talking about my child does take up a lot of my... personal therapy space when I have personal therapy.
Lyn: Mm-hmm.
Joanne Kay: And I guess it's. How do we? keep it focused on that client, that parent's feelings without, and I guess this is especially relevant to us as we're also parents of neurodivergent children. I guess the danger is we get lost in kind of being there with them in being a parent in a way that shifts focus on to what's going on for the child and trying to get to the bottom of that rather than what's going on for the client
Alison Cunningham: Yeah. I think for me it's about kind of understanding is there something preventing them? So i e you know if we go back like I say to the societal expectations and and this, that and the other, how are they actually feeling about being a parent of a neurodiverse child? Yeah, they might not actually be sitting too comfortably with their own feelings around it at the moment. So it's I think for me it's kind of allowing them to To know that all feelings are welcome, you know, and and almost explaining that as parents, any parent on the planet, we can all have very mixed feelings towards our children. and so almost introducing that space to them for what what the purpose is for, and building that relationship and that trust up. And hopefully that would kind of then, you know, through through that experience they. they do start to kind of hone in, but sometimes it is just about listening, sometimes about what their child's experiencing. So that's almost out of their system. So
Joanne Kay: Yeah.
Alison Cunningham: then they can then focus on themselves.
Lyn: I was thinking that it's very much like transferable skills in the sense of, you know, being so attuned to our children. We're looking out for so many different things. It's what sounds are there, what smells are there, what the weather's doing, what their body temperature is. There's so many different things. And I think when I'm with a client, it's kind of not excluding anything, but being aware of everything. trying to like you say build the relationship so encourage the the relationship in the sense of it's a safe place and if they want to talk about the child if that's their need sometimes we need that safe space to actually because I I certainly found as a parent I would edit what I told other people I would sugarcoat it a little bit because I didn't want people to know the the real brutal reality of perhaps what I was going through or witnessing with my child. So to have a space where you can actually just be real and I often find as well reassuring parents that or anyone in my room, I don't mind what language you use. I want you to use the language that makes sense for you because I need to know it in your words. If that means swearing. then swear. As long as it's not directed at me in an abusive way, that's fine. And sometimes the relief that comes and they can just like start expressing how it
Joanne Kay: Yeah.
Lyn: actually really feels and be angry. know, anger is also one of those emotions that we're very much taught is a wrong thing and it's not to be expressed. But it's not, it's about how it is expressed. It's very important. You know, it's part of our attachment survival strategy. as well as other emotions and inequality to other emotions and allowing that. And what's also come into mind for me is the name it to tame it.
Joanne Kay: Yes. Yep.
Lyn: So actually, allowing that space to talk about the child allows the processing of all of that. And therefore, once you've built the relationship, once they've started processing those experiences and how they fit, the feelings will come. And I think it's being patient and sitting with them in that and then explore
Joanne Kay: Yeah
Lyn: the feelings.
Alison Cunningham: But I think it's also worth pointing it, you know, counsellors, we're not just hearing what they're saying, you know.
Lyn: Mm-hmm.
Alison Cunningham: So they can be verbally talking about the child and this, that and the other, but actually we're looking at the the body language and and that gives us a huge indication about how they're feeling around that. If they disappear in the chair, if they kind of start almost kind of coming up in the chair. We're looking at all those different cues. So we've got a real understanding. of what the feelings are behind it. and we can kind of use a bit of immediacy in the room in regards to I'm noticing you're talking about this your child's experience here, here, here. But I actually noticed how you was when you was discussing that, So kind of bringing that in to show them that we're we're not just hearing the words, we're seeing them the whole picture for them.
Lyn: Mm.
Joanne Kay: Yeah, and it's that superpower again, isn't it, of we know how to catch a moment, we know how to be attuned to other signs of dysregulation and things going on under the surface. We've got an eye out for that all the haven't we? So yeah, it's really... And what you were saying Lynne was around just allowing that space for the full spectrum of emotion without shame because shame is
Lyn: Mmm.
Joanne Kay: massive here isn't it that societal
Lyn: And I think...
Joanne Kay: pressure
Lyn: Yeah, and I think as well there's an element of bringing in that you can, that it's normal to have a combination of emotions. You can have very much joy and pride in your child and still be distressed and guilty. And we are able as humans to have simultaneous opposing, conflicting emotions.
Joanne Kay: So it's like a space to both and you know anger doesn't mean bad parent Mourning for the expectations that you might have had That didn't happen doesn't mean you don't love your child and everything that they are It's kind of yeah being able to hold both sides of that seesaw
Alison Cunningham: Yeah. I also think it's about holding allowing that space for them. I think for a lot of parents, you you've got that added layer as well that they're not just trying to navigate their way through their feelings and experiences with their own child, but also professionals and all of these these other people. So I think that also adds another layer and being able to because at the end of the day, if they're feeding a lot of ways to a lot of people. professionals, they're now sitting in front of you. Almost
Lyn: Mm.
Alison Cunningham: trying to you know, yes, it's a professional relationship but you're coming at it from a different angle. and that can also might can be a barrier but also a place to start breaking that down.
Lyn: and also being mindful of the impact it has on relationships, significant relationships, be it with your partner, your husband or wife or immediate family.
Alison Cunningham: Or even other s other children.
Lyn: Yes, siblings. And your relationship with the siblings and them and their relationships with their siblings.
Alison Cunningham: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think for Massey for years I was told, Patrick's your favourite. Patrick wasn't my favourite. He was just the most he was the loudest.
Lyn: Hehehehehe
Alison Cunningham: yeah, so it to a lot of people it it felt like well it seemed like he became my favourite, he wasn't, they just needed my attention in very different ways.
Joanne Kay: Hmm, yeah.
Lyn: Mmm.
Alison Cunningham: but people don't see that and and sometimes the The children don't see that either, you
Joanne Kay: Hmm.
Alison Cunningham: know. So massively the relationship
Joanne Kay: Yeah. Okay. Well, we're kind of coming to an end now. And I wonder I might ask if you want our listeners to leave with something from this conversation, what would you leave them with at this point?
Alison Cunningham: Doing amazing. And that's it. We can only do what we can do, but always be known it's the best at the moment.
Joanne Kay: Thank you guys I think that draws us to an end on that wonderful note. thank you for joining us today on Attach Together and we'll see you next time. If you'd like to learn more about our Level 5 and Level 7 diplomas in attachment-based psychotherapy, you can find full details at optimaattachment.co.uk. And that's also where you can download that CPD certificate for the time spent listening to us today. And this is available for all of our episodes. So do go and check them out. If you're listening on Spotify, there's a link in the show notes as well. Thank you very much. Goodbye.
