#360: David Cote (Playwright, Librettist, and Theater Critic) (pt. 2 of 2)

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Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast: Making Art Work.
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We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts.
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Here are your hosts, Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
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Hi, Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners! I'm Andy Heise. 
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And I'm Nick Petrella.
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Today, Andy and I are speaking with David Cote.
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He's a playwright, librettist, and theater critic based in New York City.
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His subjects include wrongful conviction, climate change, music therapy, and social justice issues around police violence and the persecution of immigrants.
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At the time of this recording, his opera, Blind Injustice, was performed in New York at Jazz at Lincoln Center and in Cleveland at Playhouse Square.
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Last year, his opera Lucidity premiered with On-Site Opera in New York and then had its Northwest premiere at Seattle Opera.
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Next year, Lucidity has its European premiere in Germany.
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Previous operas include Three Way at Nashville Opera and BAM and The Scarlet Ibis at the Prototype Festival in New York.
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As a journalist, David's TV and theater writing appears in The A V Club, Observer, Four Columns, American Theater, and Elsewhere.
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He was the longest-serving theater editor and chief drama critic of Time Out New York, and is the author of popular companion books about the Broadway hits Moulin Rouge the Musical, Wicked, Jersey Boys, and Spring Awakening.
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This is a thumbnail sketch of David's professional career, so we'll have his website in the show notes so you can learn more about him and the breadth of his activities.
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Thanks for coming on the podcast, David.
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So, David, you've collaborated with a lot of people over the years and, as you said, produced plays and operas.
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What are the characteristics of those interactions that have gone well and those that could have gone better?
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Yeah, every collaboration is different.
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I heard somewhere that that, you know, with musical theater teams, which is not so different from composer librettists, um there the ideal collaborator relationship is somewhere between best friend and um best friend is on one end of the spectrum and kind of cordial, just sort of business partners is on the other.
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But you want to be somewhere in the middle.
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I mean, I I really like my collaborators as people.
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I think they're fun and and you know, we get along.
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We we we usually have our eye on the same goal.
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But I don't necessarily try to, you know, make them my best friend.
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Um and so uh, you know, I think that the collaborations that you know it's like any relationship, communication and sharing control are key.
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Um in uh in the opera world, the composer generally is considered you know the top, top dog.
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They they have to take your words and make music out of it and and fill in the whole world of the opera with the music.
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And so I uh you know, I I totally, you know, I I'm I'm I if they say we need less of this, or can you rewrite this or give me more of that?
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I I I go with it usually.
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I mean I I'm not precious about too much, and also I love being inspired.
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You know, there's nothing that's more inspiring than getting feedback from a from a collaborator.
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And if you know, of course the feedback is I don't think any of this works.
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Not so inspiring.
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No, that's more like try again.
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Try it all over.
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No, I've never had that, thankfully.
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But um I uh yeah, no, I love I love being given a task, you know, to it's like it's it's like a new puzzle to do.
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Yeah.
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Um yeah, so I mean, yeah, communication and sharing control, and yeah.
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I mean, I the the only bad collaborations I've had in terms of opera are when I've worked with composers whose music just doesn't do anything for me.
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And you can't really, there's not there's not much you can do about that.
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How how did you overcome that?
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I mean, I can't, I mean you can't, I don't know.
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I didn't work with them as much.
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Uh oh, I see, I see.
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I thought while you were working with them.
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I thought you had someone you were working with that you weren't inspired by their music, and I was just wondering how you overcame that.
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But you you're saying you didn't work with them.
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Well, I I I would finish projects with them, and then I'd hear the finished I I mean, I finished the yeah, I'd hear the finished product and just be like, oh.
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Yeah, I don't I think I'm that doesn't do any do anything for my words, and it doesn't do anything for me in general.
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So I felt like, you know, it you know, when it's when it's really not yeah, it's just I mean, not every composer is equally talented, and you know, so uh sometimes I would just feel like and and then you just don't pursue more collaborations with those people.
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I see.
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Sure.
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Yeah, sure, sure.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Um and you can't tell them, hey, can you make this music more interesting?
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Yeah, you could do that once.
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You know, and I've never done a bona fide uh musical theater piece, and that would be fun to do, not uh, how do I say this?
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Not because I'm unless I found a brilliant musical theater composer.
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Um, but the thing about musicals is like the music can be poppy, or it can be old-fashioned, or it can be jazzy, or it can be this or that.
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Right.
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It's never gonna be as to me, it's not gonna never gonna be as original or thrilling as a really great classical composer.
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And I know classical it means like dead white Europeans, but you know, there's no real term except new music for like contemporary classical or opera composers, if that makes any sense.
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And I know that I'm talking like as if these things are completely separate and they're not.
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I guess the point is when I work on a musical, I hope I find a really cool musical theater composer, but in musicals, it's like the music is almost like the is a like not that big a factor.
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You know, you have to have snappy, fun lyrics, I guess, that are intelligible to the audience, and you have to have catchy music that the audience can enjoy.
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It doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna be like really good music.
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I'm being snobby, right?
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You know what I'm saying?
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But basically, because an opera you can have like really amazing, interesting, dark, atonal, weird music, and you won't understand the friggin' words, and you have to look at the super titles, and that's okay, because that's the opera world.
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But in musical theater, you have to understand the words and you have to roll with it.
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And yeah, I don't know.
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I mean, but I would love to work on a musical one day, you know.
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Yeah, sure.
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That's great.
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So yeah, I don't know if I answered the question about collaborators, but you know, no, you did, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Okay.
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No, I like that spectrum that you that you mentioned.
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That that makes a lot of sense to me.
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I certainly um I'm not gonna get any work off this.
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I can write a musical with that asshole.
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No.
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How do you how do you define success for yourself as an artist today?
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Um has and has that how has that shifted over over your career over time?
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Success, I guess.
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With success, I I just feel like the greater freedom I feel in writing to take chances and to to live within um doubt or live within not knowing if this is any good, or you know, my joke, of course, with playwriting is like I I'm working on a play that I think maybe two people will be interested in, and I'm not sure I'm one of them, you know?
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Uh so uh, you know, you just have to be willing to just to just do that.
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And I think when I started out doing committing to creative, I was I was a frustrated writer for for for ages.
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And when I was at Bard, I applied to get into a fiction writing workshop, and you know, I think I just sent him a bunch of fragments of interesting writing I I thought that would get me in, and I didn't get in.
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And I sort of I let that be a setback for far too many years.
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And so when I finally sat down to say, I'm gonna write something and I'm gonna finish it.
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You know, I mean I I didn't I didn't learn a lot of basic things about writing when I started out, which is that do that first draft and let it be let it be a rough draft, let it be awful, but you should finish it.
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And it doesn't all come out in one big explosion.
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It's like you have to, it's gonna be it can it may be slow part by part.
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Do things by do, you know, you try to finish some job in a in a rush, it's gonna be a mess.
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So um, you know, I learned I learned a lot of things about writing through time out, and then I learned a lot of things about creative writing, you know, over the years when I, you know, I started around 2008 uh for real.
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And yeah, and so now I'm just I don't know, I'm just now like really excited that I get to continue to write silly stuff for music to be composed, to be set to music, or silly stuff for actors to stay on stage, and and um, you know, it's it's the most that that's that's the success.
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The success is that I can and also I get into some of these artist residencies and I get uh which is you know wonderful because it can be a lot of competition, and you get two or three weeks to write, and that's a real you know, that's a real privilege.
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Sure, sure.
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Yep.
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So this is a two-part question.
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As a theater critic, what are some of the attributes you consider to help readers of your reviews?
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And since there's a love-hate relationship with artists and critics, have you ever had any issues with a review that you've written?
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So the first one was like what what are the attributes?
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I mean, being coming from a creative background, being an actor at some point, that might help a little bit in terms of like sympathy with smaller, you know, smaller productions, perhaps, I guess, and and gives me a little bit more irreverence with the big commercial productions.
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Um I don't know, maybe versatility.
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I I I I'm I'm comfortable reviewing a big Broadway musical as well as an experimental piece downtown.
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So and I think every critic should be versatile.
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But if you can only review, if you're an art critic and you can only review like, you know, 19th century European painting or 18th century, whatever.
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Right, right.
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And you know, and you look at a Pollock and you can't, which is that'd be ridiculous, of course.
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But you know, you have to have versatility as a critic.
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You know, so I mean I think I'm versatile, I think I'm a little sardonic.
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Um, but I I think yeah, I think that people the the best thing that a critic uh that people can say to a critic is either, you know, when you love a play, oh I make sure I go see it because I love your taste, or of course, if you love something, I go running screaming from it because you know, I don't like your taste.
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So just to just to somehow but you know, the whole idea that a reader out there is following a critic for any length of time is kind of it's hard to imagine these days because you know we don't have the same culture of reading and consuming critics and having those conversations that we did, because you know, the Times, the New York Times just recently declared that they were shifting away from just the standard written reviews.
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Um so the it's uh yeah, the state of criticism.
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I always joke, I went from one dying profession to another, theater critic to opera librettist.
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Uh and well that trend's been going on for at least five years.
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I think one of our first guests was uh theater was a crit a an arts critic.
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Yeah, yeah.
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No, it's been it's been, yeah.
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I mean, uh I I started in 2000.
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So I've been at it for 25 years, but it's yeah, it's scary because uh but the other question you had was sorry.
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So you know that there's a love-hate relationship with artists and critics.
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So have you ever had any issues or funny stories about a review that you've written that you know remove the names?
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Yeah.
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Nobody has like you know, dumped a plate of spaghetti on my head uh or uh or thrown a drink in my face in public.
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Um I don't know.
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Um uh yeah, no, I haven't had any really horror stories like that.
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I mean, uh I just um there are reviews that I I've I've reviewed things, and I and I think that for one from one reason or another it was a mixed review, and I've thought, oh, I should have given that a more positive review.
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But that's just sort of internal discussions you have after the fact.
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Um okay, there was one time, I guess I'll it's a storytelling.
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Here we go.
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Okay, okay.
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So uh there's a play by David Lindsay Abair, who uh is a very talented, uh very talented playwright.
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Um he wrote a play called Rabbit Hole that was turned into a movie with uh Nicole Kidman.
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Um, but that was on Broadway first.
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It was about a mother who was grieving the death of her child.
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And, you know, I just reviewed it in a bad temper, although I had a genuine beef with it, which is that it's like, why is this play on Broadway?
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Why is it in the theater?
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It's a TV movie.
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Um it's and it's sort of like I thought it was sort of uh bougie and just sort of, you know, manipulating the audience around grief and a dead child and all that.
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And I thought, you know, this is just cheap, bougie, realistic entertainment to hell with it.
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And I wrote a review along those lines, like, you know, New York American theater has to get itself out of this naturalistic rut.
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And um, yeah, and so anyway, and people love that review because it was really dyspeptic and you know, sort of a call to arms.
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And again, that was sort of the downtown side of me.
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And, you know, and I believed it.
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I really, you know, I hadn't revisited the play and reread it or anything, but that was that was my take at the time.
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It was like these big institutional theaters are putting on this wrap for suburban audiences enough.
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So, anyway, then years later, David Lindsay Bear was getting an award by the from the New York Drama Critics Circle, uh, which I was a member of, for a play called Good People.
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Uh, and that play was about class and money in Boston, and it was a really good play.
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I mean, he's always been a great playwright.
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Always been a you know, so you know, in a play I enjoyed, and yeah, a substantial play about about class and money and and and empathy and kindness and things like that, you know.
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It was still in a realist, a naturalistic vein, but you know, there's anyway, plays can be naturalistic.
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Um, anyway, so he got the award, and I said, Oh, hi, David.
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And he's like, Oh, and I and I basically said, and I sort of spontaneously genuflected before him, you know.
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I had had a I guess I'd had a couple cocktails.
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And I uh as if to say, uh I bow before you, talented writer, you know, and he said, Does I hey get a photo get a photographer, get a photographer over here.
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That's funny.
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Yeah, so I basically humbled myself before him.
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I didn't like, you know, uh what's the word?
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I didn't uh what's the word?
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I didn't take back the review, the earlier review, but I you know you know, I'm talent, talent is talent, and I I will always I will always respect and love talent, you know.
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If and for all you know, that review might have inspired him to get that award.
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You don't know.
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Or to write that right?
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I guess so.
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I mean, I guess my review was uh was sort of angrily class oriented on class, and his next play was much more of a working class play in some ways.
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It was with Francis McDormand was in it.
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She was really amazing.
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Are you Facebook friends?
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With David Lindseyberg?
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Yeah.
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I don't think so.
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I don't think so.
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But I mean I think I don't think I don't think many critics actually have have that big an effect on anybody's career.
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And I mean, even if you're right even if you write for the New York Times, I don't think uh I think that that's I think that's a misperception that critics make or break careers.
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Yeah.
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So you've worked with both large institutions and smaller, uh more experimental companies.
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How do you navigate those differences in production size and scale and maybe creative freedom within those constraints and even sort of the financial feasibility behind uh those types of productions?
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Well I guess I'm with the smaller companies you you you understand that they have they have limited resources and you try to show them you show them as much respect and deference as you would to a bigger company.
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Um But yeah, I mean uh I would say that as a librettist, you know, you you're part of the creative team, you you need to um you need to stand up for what you believe in the work if the producers want to change something.
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But uh, you know, essentially you're just part of a team.
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So you're you're you're not you're not in charge.
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I mean, I you know I've heard stories about librettists who are trying to be a little too controlling, and I think that that's you know, it's never good when any member of the creative team is prone to, I don't know, arguing or or demanding things.
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Um Yeah, I mean I believe that and I've been on and I've been on I've been part of a creative team with a composer and a director, well rather with a director, where we've had to protect the project at certain times because the producers might they might want you to work with somebody you may not want to work with.
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So yeah, to find the perfect team and then to for that team to be have solidarity is very important.
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And I've heard of I've heard of other workshops where yeah, the composer and librettists were bickering constantly.
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And so um, yeah, but it's all very relative, of course.
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I've never looked to be honest, I've never worked with an opera company on what so-called mainstage production, like a grand grand opera.
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So that's something I I don't know about.
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Um yeah.
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So I don't know.
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Um yeah, different scales.
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I mean, you know, I I in the theater world, it's like um if I if I do finally um you know buckle up, buckle down or something and self-produce, that's gonna be a whole different stage of entrepreneurship.
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:41.039
If I'm gonna like say, okay, I'm gonna set aside this amount of money, I'm gonna do some crowdsourcing, I'm gonna rent a space off off Broadway and put on my play.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:50.880
Because as a critic in New York, I'm not expecting these companies that I review, you know, to put on my plays, besides the fact that there's tons of competition.
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.640
So yeah, I would have to do that myself if I wanted to do it in New York.
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:56.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:05.599
For any acting students listening to this interview, what should they know about the business that they may not learn about in school?
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:08.079
That's tough.
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:15.359
I'd uh I feel like in school by now they teach them about self-taping and they teach them about you know audition protocols and all that.
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.359
Um wow.
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:22.880
Um I I don't know my that I'll be honest, I don't know a lot about the acting side of things.
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:27.119
Um I yeah, I'm just uh yeah.
00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:34.799
You know, audition with with you know audition with a play that really speaks to you, uh not just something you think that will impress the auditioners.
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:35.279
Yeah.
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:39.599
And so you were an actor, but that's what, 10, 15 years ago?
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:42.319
Oh, that was like uh twenty five years ago.
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:42.480
Yeah.
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:43.839
Yeah, okay, okay.
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:44.559
Yeah.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:50.000
Although, you know, if I got the right part, I would go back into it, maybe.
00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:51.440
Yeah, there you go.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:20:01.680
I mean that's the thing too, it's also it's like, well, I have a piece that's sort of a two hander and and I'm like, well Safe costs, I could do it myself.
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:03.519
So yeah, let's see.
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:05.119
Yeah.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:15.200
So based on your experience, what have you learned about getting a new work off the ground from early development uh all the way through to production?
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:21.039
And what tends to make the difference in whether um you know a project moves forward or stalls out?
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:23.839
I think it's the amount of people you have involved with you.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.279
I mean, you know, again, it's like it's that thing about creating a community.
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:32.960
Um find if you're a writer, find a director you can work with who's if who's excited about the project.
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:38.000
If you can if you want to write for a particular actor, then make sure that they're aboard with you.
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:43.599
Um yeah, I would say uh, you know, just like get those people in on the ground floor.
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:57.200
I mean, it's tough because if you have an actor you've worked with and then the project develops in some direction and you get a different actor you really want to work with, that can be tough too, because you know, if they've helped you develop the piece and you're like, well, we're gonna go into production with somebody else.
00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:01.119
That's that's I haven't had to do that personally, but that would be rough.
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:07.519
Um yeah, the more people you have sharing your vision, the more the easier the burden, I think, would be.
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:24.160
And as far as opera goes, yeah, I mean, you wanna you wanna have a composer that you work with and and and find some that's a tougher business in some ways because uh theater you can do an empty space, bunch of chairs, you know, right?
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:29.279
But opera requires musicians and singers and and specialized people.
00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:29.680
Yeah.
00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:30.640
Right.
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:31.440
Yeah.
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.359
So you recently returned from a Yaddo residency.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:36.319
What was that like?
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.440
And do you have other fun projects on the horizon?
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:41.440
Yeah, YATO was amazing.
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:47.200
I mean, it's a it's like it's like one of the more well-known residencies, and I never thought I was gonna get into it.
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.440
And in fact, there was almost like a 15-year gap between the last time I applied.
00:21:51.440 --> 00:22:01.119
Um, I mean, like as I had gotten into McDowell the first time, which is again ages ago, and I thought, well, wow, I must have some magic that I can get into this famous McDowell.
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:02.799
I'm gonna try Yahoo next.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.960
And uh, of course, I I didn't get in in like 2009 or something.
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.119
And so, yeah, 15 years later, I was like, what the hell?
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:10.319
Let me just apply to YATO.
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:11.680
And you know, a lot has changed.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:15.200
Because you know, in the intervening years, I had a lot of credits that I was very proud of.
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:28.799
And I could, and I was also very because also like applying me as I would say if you're young and you're just starting out, you know, residencies are a really one great way, I guess, to network, but also just to have time to work on your craft.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:38.240
And you know, these residencies are not just about you know, established or even mid-career people, though they have a lot, it's a real mix, they have a lot of emerging artists as well.
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:46.079
And so I would say get out there and apply to residencies because they're wonderful, you know, they're not like it's not the same as a production, but it's a wonderful opportunity.
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:47.440
So yeah, Yada was great.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:55.519
I got uh four weeks there, you know, it's this beautiful mansion and other and the grounds are lovely, and they feed you.
00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:02.960
It's and you know, there's a story in Slate recently about about resident artists, writers, writers' retreats that cost money.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:10.480
They could they like they'll take you to the Alps or to Greece or something and charge you four thousand bucks, and um, you know, they'll feed you, etc.
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:12.640
But it's like you gotta pay, pay to play.
00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:22.640
And uh luckily Yauto is not that they you know they they have funding uh and donors, I suppose, and and uh you know, you just have to get yourself there.
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:31.839
Um so it was great, and you know, you just met I just met like wonderful writers, and yeah, I got to read my stuff for for you know, like everybody presents work.
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:34.559
Um you don't have to, but you know, most people do.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:40.640
So like they'll they'll do just a slideshow of their painting or read their poetry or read a part of part of a novel.
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:46.240
And so I read I read like part of a couple plays, and it was uh it was nerve-wracking, but it was it was good.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:47.039
It was good.
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:47.440
Yeah.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:48.000
Yeah.
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:48.640
Yeah.
00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:49.920
And also, you know, they're fun.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:55.599
The artists are funny, and so you get to like see all different types of people who are you know, you know, your characters.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:56.319
Yeah.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:58.799
And future collaborators, maybe.
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:03.200
Yeah, uh, yeah, you'll meet a you maybe you'll meet a composer or something that you can work with.
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:04.160
Yeah, sure.
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:05.759
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely collaboration.
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:06.000
Yeah.
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:10.559
And then just the the other half of that question any fun projects coming up?
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.240
Well, because I'm a bit of an addict for residencies, I'm going to some more.
00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:17.119
Uh going to one out in Washington State.
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:23.359
It's actually on like the western edge of Washington State, uh, like on a spit of land out called Oysterville.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:27.680
Uh, so I have to learn how to enjoy oysters in the next uh month or so.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:31.359
But I think they have I think they have shrimp too, thank goodness.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:38.319
Um uh yeah, that's a that's for a month and um very rural, you know, very secluded, which is great.
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:44.319
And uh then after that in November, I'm going to a place called uh Marble House in Vermont for about three weeks.
00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:52.799
And yeah, so I'm just gonna do that and put the put the crew put the reviewing on hold for about a couple months and then and then come back in December.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:25:00.960
And yeah, I mean I've got a play that I I was working on at Yahoo that I hopefully can finish um and you know work on other projects.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.519
Uh there is actually a musical that's in the works.
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:05.359
It's not in the works, no, I shouldn't say that.
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:20.240
It's like a musical that may develop into something, so I might do an outline of that, you know, which is you know, I don't usually outline things, but that's uh, you know, that will be one thing that I'd be like, okay, here's how act one's gonna go, here's how act two is gonna go, these are the songs that are gonna go in.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:22.720
Um yeah, so those are the fun things.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:24.880
And what can I say?
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.920
Lucidity has its world premiere in Germany.
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:29.839
Uh not world sorry, it's European premiere.
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:30.559
European, yeah.
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:34.640
Yeah, yeah, in uh in uh Germany in in February next year.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:35.119
Yeah.
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:35.839
Awesome.
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:37.200
Yeah, lots going on.
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:38.000
Yeah.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.079
Yeah, no, I'm I feel really lucky.
00:25:40.079 --> 00:26:04.480
I mean, you know, it's like uh uh yeah, I just feel very lucky that these opportunities happen and and uh and because there's a lot of people who just don't, you know, they're just don't even they they have trouble getting that first opera production up or you know, right or even you know they they to even have a play that may not be in production, but you have uh a director, for example, who's who's really wants to keep pushing it out into the world?
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:06.319
That's you know, again the idea.
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:12.400
Find her uh like-minded collaborators and you know hold on to them.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:13.279
Yeah.
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:20.079
Well, David, we've reached the point of the interview where we ask all of our interviewees the same three questions.
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:27.119
And the first question is what advice would you give to others wanting to become an arts entrepreneur?
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:36.319
Play the long game, find your collaborators, um dare to be outrageous, dare to dare to swim against the tide.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:44.799
I mean, we live in a really uh uh we live in a time of unity of artistic, you know, conf cultural conformity and regurgitation.
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:47.759
I mean, everything's uh, you know, uh we're IP obsessed.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.440
Um we're we're we're terrified of uh offending each other.
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:53.680
I think that hopefully that'll change.
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:54.799
Um I don't know.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:56.079
I mean, everybody's an entrepreneur.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:07.759
I mean, I I I again I'm trying not to be too awfully cynical all the time, but it's like you know, you look at your phone and you're like, what these people are selling their bodies and they're selling their attitude and their humor and their whatever.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:12.880
They're trying to monetize their lives on this, on these crappy platforms, you know, that benefit billionaires.
00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:14.559
And it's like, what are we doing?
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:18.640
It's like the whole world's a marketplace, and people are like peddling themselves.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:23.039
And it's like, oh, okay, maybe they and they maybe they make money, I don't know.
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:30.799
Um, and the arts is like, you know, that's like the hardest thing to to monetize, I feel.
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:40.720
Um but uh yeah, I mean, I guess you know, there we there's an amazing as a for writers, there are all these opportunities like Substack or whatever to get your work out there.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:47.440
So, you know, there are definitely wonderful places to to to write and to get your writing out there.
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:55.279
So what can we do to ensure the arts are more accessible and reaching the widest possible audience?
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:02.400
Um I would say bring bring bring a friend to an event, you know, bring bring a friend to a play, to an opera.
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:05.920
If you know something about the form, then tell them about it.
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.160
Um I think you're doing something.
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:12.000
You know, you're you're you're creating a podcast, which you can listen to anywhere.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:16.400
And so creating converse creating conversations is really important.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:17.200
Yeah.
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.599
Uh avoiding conversations is how things die.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:31.359
But you know, talking about, you know, opera, plays, uh the history of theater, the history of that, or how to appreciate this or that, you know, I think those conversations are super important.
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:49.839
Um uh yeah, and reading, you know, and and maybe sharing reviews, you know, because I mean there there's there's people just going out and and and and consuming art, and then there's like and having conversations with their friends, but then there's also like listening to so-called experts, which I I do believe that, you know.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:50.799
Yeah, yeah, you know.
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:56.559
You know, like trust I mean, you know, decide who you care about in terms of like reviewers.
00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:01.680
Uh there's some that you might read and just be like, they're superficial, or I don't, you know, I don't agree with them.
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:06.160
But yeah, so share reviews that you that you think are interesting, I suppose.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:08.160
Keep the discourse turning.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:10.799
So that's one way, yeah.
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:16.559
Lastly, what's the best artistic or entrepreneurial advice you've been given?
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:20.400
Um Yeah, I don't know.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:29.920
I guess when I was okay, when I was when I was trying to be uh yeah, when I was going to over to the dark side to become a theater critic at time out, I was chatting, you know, talking to friends.
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:30.960
What should I do this?
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:31.759
Shouldn't I do this?
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:39.279
And one theater friend was like, well, you know, you yeah, I think it's a great opportunity, but you have to be prepared for total strangers to hate you.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:44.640
And I was like, okay, uh, okay.
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:47.359
Uh which I don't think was entirely true.
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:48.640
Yeah.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:54.240
But it was just like, I guess maybe the advice there was don't be afraid to be honest.
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:54.799
Yeah.
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:55.359
Yeah.
00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:56.000
Yeah.
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:12.960
Um, and then when I was, and then a few years later, when I was going to my first artist retreat uh at McDowell, which was I was excited about, um, I talked to a playwright I knew, and I was having tremendous imposter syndrome because I'm a theater crit I mean an actor turned theater critic.
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:13.519
You know.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:13.759
Right.
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:20.480
And I mean I was working on a play and I'd had a short opera, I think, you know, either drafted or produced at that point.
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:27.440
But yeah, I was just starting out and feeling tremendous uh, yeah, not guilt, but tremendous like uh nervousness about it.
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:27.920
Sure.
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:33.680
Yeah, and he was just like, um I think his advice was just be a sponge, you know.
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:35.440
And I thought that was good advice.
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:39.359
Just observe, listen, uh, be a sponge.
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:41.519
That's a good good advice for any writer, I think.
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:41.839
Yeah.
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:44.079
Um yeah, just be open.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:44.559
Yeah.
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.039
And clearly you took it because that's what you were doing.
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:48.079
Remember the research?
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:48.400
Yeah.
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:48.880
Yeah.
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:49.119
Yeah.
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:51.759
Of course, when I was at McDowell, I was like, when they asked, Well, what do you do?
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:52.720
What's your field?
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:57.279
I'd be like, uh I'm a I'm a playwright.
00:30:57.279 --> 00:30:58.480
But I'm really a critic.
00:30:58.480 --> 00:30:58.960
I'm sorry.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:02.559
So it's it's very it's very apologetic when I was there.
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:04.400
Immediately start apologizing, exactly.
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:06.799
I'm also Catholic, but we won't go we won't go into that.
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:16.079
Well, David, it's it's inspiring to hear your steady and purposeful approach to creativity and promoting theater and the arts.
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:17.599
Thanks so much for coming on.
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.200
It's just so wonderful to talk.
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:24.079
You know, it's always it's always clarifying for me to talk about this this business.
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:26.000
Thanks, David.
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:26.640
Thank you.
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:30.240
Thanks for listening.
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:32.640
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00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:40.559
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