Daniel Peters: Welcome to AOAP's discussion from the Deep Ed podcast, where we share real stories and practical ideas to help you run safer, stronger aquatic programs and facilities. I'm Daniel Peters, your host, and I am accompanied today by our co-host, Kirsten Barnes. AOAP is a nonprofit dedicated to improving aquatic education, recreation, and safety through training, resources, and community. today we'll talk not only about the global perspective Natalie brings to this work, but also about how research, communication, and collaboration can help aquatic professionals make better operational decisions in their own facilities and communities. Whether you work in a municipal pool, water park, Y, or university, we hope you walk away with the ideas you can play right away.
Kirsten Barnes: Natalie Martin is a dynamic communications executive, nonprofit advocate, and strategic visionary. She's managed multimillion dollar budgets, advised senior leaders, built cross sector alliances, and championed life saving initiatives globally. From her legislative advocacy work in Florida to her leadership within the Swim Global project to her research and contributions at ⁓ Natalie has made an impact across government, academia, nonprofit spaces, and beyond. We're really excited to have her here to share her insights from her journey across continents, cultures, and causes.
Daniel Peters: ⁓ Natalie, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Can you start by telling us a little bit about your work across the different regions of the world and how those experiences have shaped the way you think about the aquatic safety, communication, and prevention?
Nathalie Martin: Amazing. Well, thanks for having me. What an introduction. So my work really does come up. You know, I've done a lot of work, ⁓ only in North America, but ⁓ Latin America specifically and in Africa. ⁓ I've also ⁓ with collaborators ⁓ Europe, Australia, even Asia. And I think that over the last three decades, really, you know, we think the world is so big. And really what this has done for me and my type of work is that it's really reinforced the idea that we are so much smaller we think ⁓ ⁓ have so much in common. ⁓ my work really focuses ⁓ ⁓ the gap between people who are in the field and advocacy ⁓ ⁓ the work in programming and then bringing that closer to sharing stories. ⁓ So right now with the Swim Global project, ⁓ idea with this project is that I get to share stories from around the world. And that to me is ⁓ such fulfilling thing to do right now because ⁓ are of advocates around the world, hundreds and thousands of advocates and programmers that are just doing the work. ⁓ And so they need someone to reach out to to say, hey, check it out. I'm in Nigeria. This is what I'm doing. And to share those stories. So that's the big bulk of what I'm doing right now with the Swim Global Project. Of course, like you know, in my consulting business, I work with several NGOs and nonprofits that work in international aid. So that gap or that intersection between international aid ⁓ Drowning prevention work and public health is really closely tied. ⁓ so when I launched the Swim Global Project, the idea was that we need somewhere where these individuals from around the world can come together, network, share their stories, ⁓ and feel that they're being supported ⁓ and a different type of conversation.
Kirsten Barnes: love it. So you've talked about really working ⁓ You've worked in over 20 countries. You've worked with various cultures. ⁓ one challenge or pattern that you've seen consistently across communities when it comes to water safety? ⁓
Nathalie Martin: such a great question. think what I see most often ⁓ that there are issues that are deeply rooted when it comes to ⁓ when it comes to awareness, ⁓ even when it comes to assumptions. Like mentioned, the language around drowning prevention is very similar all around the world. And so what I'm seeing, especially as I'm bringing ⁓ individuals together around the world ⁓ under the Global project is that there is such a lack, there's a lot of lack of infrastructure. you're in North America, whether you're in Africa, of course the resources are slightly different. But when I've worked where people live in or around water, oftentimes they don't know how to swim. They don't know, you know, where to get that information. ⁓ Or even when I've worked in areas where facilities are world class, a lot of the good practices that we try to advocate are ignored.
Kirsten Barnes: I ⁓ we hear those conversations ⁓ at home every day, right?
Daniel Peters: And it's coming from a place where you don't really know anybody else is experiencing these issues because you're so kind of, I don't want to say self-centered, but you're focused on your facility and what's going on in your organization. So you've had the opportunity to work in both legislative and grassroots spaces. did you kind of begin to identify your voice ⁓ ⁓ that could make the greatest impact?
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ great question. One of the things that I try to do and that I've learned to do, because this doesn't happen overnight, is really trying, first of all, to understand the community that I'm living in, but then understand the communities that others are living in as well, and understanding what they're trying to shape around drowning prevention and water safety. I think that the biggest thing for me has been to try to understand behavior, try to understand the culture, and really try to see how people are actually interacting with water in their daily lives. And I think if we miss that, even the best programs are gonna fall short. So to answer your question around how do I bring legislation into the community or how do I get that part of the conversation going is again, It takes time to identify where the gaps are in our communities and what those challenges are. And I think we just really need to pay attention. I think that we live in a very fast paced, as you know, we live in a very fast paced in our lives and want quick access. ⁓ But advocates, we have to step back a little bit ⁓ and look at the big picture. And I think we also have to try to figure out Who are those stakeholders that can help us move that conversation so that we can have an impact? And again, that takes time to identify.
Kirsten Barnes: something that you said really resonated with me. ⁓ How do you work to put your own personal, biases isn't the right word, but your own personal experiences and privileges to the side so that you can really connect with people ⁓ as you're trying to understand their goals and how approaching these things.
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ my gosh, that is such a fair question because we know that many of us come from a perspective of privilege. And sometimes I didn't realize that perspective of privilege until I started working with underserved communities. ⁓ for me, as you know, I'm originally from Canada and I worked a lot with the Life Saving Society. ⁓ I was fortunate to be given opportunities to work in underserved. ⁓ communities, went as far north in Nunavut, which is far Arctic, to Venezuela and to the far south. And I saw exactly what the impact was when communities just didn't have a concept of what it meant to be safe around water. And the other thing for me, you when someone asks me, hey, when did you learn to swim? I actually don't remember not knowing how to swim. ⁓ And so as the decades pass, when I started living in the US, we always knew that there were barriers around access. We always knew that race also played into why certain communities did not learn how to swim. But I really got into that history part when I started living in Florida. And it started really resonating that, I don't have to go to the Caribbean. I don't have to go to the Bahamas. to understand where that history and that barrier exists that so many communities for generations did not learn how to swim. And so again, I think you have to be able to look at the history. You have to be able to understand again, going back to that culture and behavior. Because for me, right, when we're 16, 17, we become lifeguards really because it's so much fun. We want to be part of that. identity, but what I often say is that I'm staying and doing this work because of the mission. And I had to educate and almost re-educate myself throughout the last decade to fully grasp the impact of what generational barriers caused to so many communities that do not have access or never learned to swim. ⁓ so from an international perspective, when I look at even programs in the Caribbean. I've even shifted a little bit of my mindset We know that ecotourism has always been very popular, but I think we're shifting that type of work instead of saying, hey, I'm gonna go into a community for two weeks and teach everyone either how to swim or. get them certified as lifeguards. Instead, we're looking at it from a how do we build a sustainable program that has the most capacity without us coming into a community and then leaving? How do we make sure that these communities have resources? So it's very complex. I think I had to relearn ⁓ to do things in the sense of ⁓ making assumptions about communities. ⁓ I think that when I launched the Swim Global project, I didn't really grasp how much I would learn from the individuals that are involved in the Swim Global project. I had an idea, but then as you know, I have ambassadors all over the world. I have about 45 ambassadors. And what they're showing us is that they're doing so much with so little in some cases. And so that's been a really big learning for me.
Kirsten Barnes: That's really amazing to be able to kind of let our perspectives grow outside of what we know, as Daniel said earlier. You know, part of that is you talked about disparities, barriers, all of those things. We know the data is there. And one thing that we have really been talking about, especially for the last year at AOAP, is how to take that data, how to take other research that's out there or insights and how do we actually apply it in real world settings. From your perspective, what helps bridge that gap between research and data into actual action?
Nathalie Martin: Again, it's research that has happened and that is continuing to within this drowning prevention sector ⁓ is growing. There's better understanding on behavior. There's better understanding ⁓ about ⁓ And then there's also research that is ⁓ very on specific areas that perhaps need a little bit ⁓ more support that program or the training systems can grow. I think there's two words for me that come up when I think about ⁓ do we bridge research and how do we make it ⁓ to the operators, for example. ⁓ think it's about simplicity and it's about relevance. ⁓ you have researchers sharing their information and sharing their findings, It's fantastic. think it's great that we're having these conversations, but if they're not able to then translate what they are finding into kind of like that real world language, then you lose the individuals or the organizations that are actually gonna apply that research. For example, if there's research ⁓ some aspects of lifeguard curriculum or lifeguard training, if that research doesn't seem quite relevant, ⁓ if the research shows that ⁓ going to be very difficult to implement, ⁓ for example, could be research out there right now that states the best lifeguard ⁓ for safety and ⁓ is eight lifeguards one swimmer. Fantastic. And, you know, they identify why that works. Well, in a real world, we know that that is very unrealistic, that we're gonna be able to have one lifeguard to eight swimmers. So I'm just giving you a very simple example. Again, ⁓ think that we need to make sure that the research is being translated ⁓ that someone or organizations that are able to look at that information. ⁓ can actually say yes, this makes sense, this is relevant, and this is how we can apply the findings.
Daniel Peters: talk about those two words simplicity and relevance. think it's those resonates so much with every organization, no matter the size, or what they're even doing, whether it's a water park or a pool, it kind of bridges it all together, can you walk us through what your approaches for building those large scale initiatives, whether it's drowning prevention campaign, a partnership effort, or even a community driven project? Where's the starting point?
Nathalie Martin: Well, the starting point is to identify that there's an issue or that there's a problem or that there's a gap that exists. So that's the first thing. And again, my guiding principle, because through the Swim Global project and a lot of the work that I'm doing now, my guiding principle ⁓ is ⁓ keep again, simple, but keep things low cost or low resourced, ⁓ but that the most impact. ⁓ So that's how I kind of start with ⁓ I look at a project or a potential ⁓ program. ⁓ that's the first thing, keep things really low resourced if possible, ⁓ what can have the most impact. ⁓ then from there, ⁓ really look at ⁓ are some of the stakeholders who can benefit from being at the table from the very beginning of a conversation or from the very beginning of a project. And so, you you do all that mapping to make sure that ⁓ got to have those individuals at the table from the beginning. Very rarely have I seen ⁓ large projects ⁓ that up being quite successful ⁓ by people come in midway. We know that that's very disruptive ⁓ and there's people that have different agendas and different priorities. ⁓ So starting off with having everyone at the table and I... often say this, I've built business networks and other networks, you'll never take away from your priority by bringing somebody else to sit next to you at the table. I have not seen that happen. I think there's a little bit of gatekeeping when it comes to research. I think there's a little bit of gatekeeping when it comes to maybe some of the work that we're doing in aquatics. Of course, we know there's ⁓ know, funding sometimes that is very, very small in some areas. So when it comes to new initiatives, there might be a little bit of, I wouldn't say fighting, but there's definitely tension around initiatives that require funding and of course, some politics. But on a lower, on a smaller scale, I think it's really important that stakeholders feel that they have a voice. These are your partners. And then you really have to understand what is the outcome that you want. What is the outcome that you want out of your program or your project ⁓ you get started? And you have to have a really strong leader that can bring through basically all of those tasks and all of those projects to fruition and very clear communication. Again, it starts ⁓ really from the
Kirsten Barnes: You know, you talked about different stakeholders who have different ideas and potentially different agendas coming into a project and that, as many of us know, can derail a project very quickly. But you also talked about making sure that everyone's clear on the outcome and that's aligned. Have you run into situations where some of those different competing agendas internally have started to take ⁓ overall goals off track and how have you kind of reigned that back in? ⁓
Nathalie Martin: Well, I I think it's through clarity and communication and not being afraid, right, to have difficult conversations. mean, ultimately, if you're the individual that's responsible for some of these initiatives, you need to be able to have those difficult conversations. And I think that oftentimes, miscommunication or misinterpretation is what causes some of these problems. Also, when we try to...
Kirsten Barnes: Yeah.
Nathalie Martin: over complicate initiatives. think that's where people, right, become confused. And so I would say that those are the two things for me ⁓ often have been the issue where things become maybe a little bit difficult ⁓ where there's assumptions made and then ⁓ not to have difficult conversations. And so I think that ⁓ if want to succeed, especially in the second ⁓ we really need to be honest, right? And we need to be open-minded and we need to be flexible because it is true that sometimes priorities will change. mean, larger scale projects, maybe you're going to have a new stakeholder that has to be involved at some point in your project, ⁓ not be happy about it, but then how do you stay flexible? How do you maintain the big picture? ⁓ And I think communication, lack of communication, ⁓ things really confusing ⁓ having a lack of clarity I think is what causes most problems. that's comes to mind anyways right now.
Daniel Peters: Yeah, and you talked about the simplicity of it and taking the chances and doing these different things. What's one thing you've tried along the way that maybe has been a simple fix that has even worked out better than you probably expected that it would?
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ that's a great one, I'm thinking. Well, I mean, a good example is ⁓ the research committee, for example, that we're working to develop here at AOAP. ⁓ think that I tried when we first started talking about ⁓ what committee would look like and what some of the priorities would be, ⁓ I tried to keep it simple. ⁓ I that when we try to overcomplicate things, ⁓ That's when sometimes projects fail and that's where people start to disengage. ⁓ think that when you ⁓ to keep, again, ⁓ understanding the end goal and also understanding that everybody has their own strengths ⁓ and ⁓ projects not about you, projects about the collective. And so that's a really good frame of mind. That's my mindset is that ⁓ ⁓ With this AOAP research committee, this not Natalie's committee, it's not necessarily Kristin's committee. It's really all of our committee and we're doing collective work ⁓ that in a year from now we can see what we've accomplished. ⁓ I overcomplicate things or if my asks or the tasks get really complicated or confusing, ⁓ again, going back to and clarity, ⁓ I think that's where people start to disengage. And again, not being afraid to be honest. If things are not working out with someone you're working with, have those tough conversations. Also make sure that you have regular ⁓ that there's ⁓ language around work that you're doing. Yeah, ⁓ that's what I wanna on that one. ⁓
Kirsten Barnes: I love it. Also, I'm so excited about the research committee. You have so many good people in this group and you all have clarity on where you're going. I'm just very excited about it. think a year from now, the conversation we have around this is just going to be life-changing for people in the field. But I digress. So you've been doing this a while. Were there any strategies or outreach methods that you thought This is it. I am gonna, this is gonna be a hit. And they just did not land the way that you thought they would.
Nathalie Martin: Yeah, and I just realized with the last question, it was asked about like, ⁓ ⁓ things turn out better than expected? Certainly with the work that we do, I know that this word comes up often is that we work in silos and that, ⁓ you know, keep the people we know within our own groups and ⁓ within our projects. ⁓ And what I found, what works well, what has been working well is that inviting organizations or individuals from outside the typical sort of aquatic circle ⁓ makes for really diverse conversation. ⁓ that's been really interesting to me is that, ⁓ you know, those different perspectives ⁓ ⁓ have different ideas on how to get things done. And that really excites me. excites me. On the flip side, I think that assuming that there's good information out there will automatically change behavior. I think for me, that's been a big learning ⁓ that, well, the information is there. ⁓ should be enough to change behavior. And we know that it doesn't. We know that people don't act just because something's true, right? ⁓ So I think, again, when something doesn't work out, I think we have to go back to the drawing board or however, you know, wherever that is placed. And we have to consider people's habits. ⁓ We to consider, you know, the community environment. ⁓ And I think a big shift for me ⁓ over last couple of decades has been ⁓ realizing communication is just as important as the message itself. So we could have ton of posters out there, you know, with water safety education, and we still get drownings or we still have accidents. And so I think that we have to look at all the processes and see, did we do the right thing by just putting out posters? How is that message being delivered? And so I would say ⁓ when it comes to community activation, You have to be really careful on what you communicate, how you communicate, and really again, going back to that end result, what is the behavior you want out of your community? And so we know that that takes a really long time to change behavior. ⁓ One of the things in Florida that we're trying to do is telling people like swim where there are lifeguards. Right? But we have to be repetitive and we have to demonstrate why swimming where there are lifeguards is a benefit to you. So multi-layered, everything is multi-layered in what we do.
Daniel Peters: Yeah, and all communities are so different too in the the respects that they're from the top bottom. It's how they go about things in their decision making and just their openness to receive just that data and that information. So I think it starts with the leaders for sure and getting them on board. But you're multilingual. You work across different cultures. How do you bring those communities, those leaders ⁓ other partner organizations on board with that shared vision?
Nathalie Martin: Mm-hmm. Again, like I don't make it about myself at all. I think it's really important that you meet people where they are. Again, doing your homework, you don't make assumptions. So you really have to meet people where they are. ⁓ This understanding what their priorities are, ⁓ understanding their constraints are. ⁓ And you have to try to understand what their ⁓ skepticism is, right? So as you know, I co-lead the ⁓ Florida Water Smart Task Force. ⁓ which is the statewide coalition for water safety. And in Florida, like every other state, it's so diverse. And there's so many different types of people at the table that you really have to have such a great understanding of where these organizations and people are coming from. I personally, you know, and I've learned this along the way, believe me, like when I started off in my career, I mean, I was going in with my agenda and saying, hey, this is how we're going to do it. And that blew up in my face. Like this is like from learning, you know, been doing this for three decades. So thinking, you know, I had to prove myself at that boardroom meeting and I had to, ⁓ know, tell people how or share with people how much I knew when in fact, it was the opposite. ⁓ learned that I want to know where people are coming from. I want to understand what their community is all about. ⁓ really, it's about listening more. Honestly, it's about listening more, maybe talking a little less. And that's how I connect. That's how I connect now. But believe me, I had moments in my career where I was like, wow, that just did not go well. Sometimes ego comes in the way.
Kirsten Barnes: ⁓ true story. You know, you talked about community activation and Daniel asked you about how you're bringing leaders together. Some of the time for aquatic professionals in the field, they are the professional voice. They are the experts. So for those aquatic professionals who are listening right now, translating what we know.
Nathalie Martin: True story, true story, sadly.
Kirsten Barnes: so that other people can hear it, whether it's the people who hold the purse strings in our organization or the people in our community who need the information is really important. So how can aquatic professionals take this broader research, prevention insights, and then use them to inform staffing, training, supervision, public education at the local level?
Nathalie Martin: you Yeah, and you just mentioned so many things, right? I think for aquatic professionals, especially those that are starting or midway or ⁓ you are in that journey, ⁓ really think you still have to start small and make it actionable. A lot of times we hear ⁓ from in the field that ⁓ I have too many things. I don't know what my priorities are. ⁓ I like I have 20 priorities. ⁓ Well, you can try to... bring those down into actionable items, pick one insight and ask yourself, how does this change how I operate tomorrow? Right? So if it's about, okay, well, I need a million dollars. If not, can't, you know, offer this swim program. If you're focusing on that one problem or that one, you know, ⁓ of either the research that's been done. ⁓ that's not going to help you tomorrow. So I think when you look at the research and you're given ⁓ tools or you're given ideas or even given ideas on how to perform ⁓ or lifeguard recruitment ⁓ ⁓ safety plans, ⁓ a look at everything that is presented and look at it from a very small lens. Look at it from ⁓ What can I implement tomorrow? So obviously there's some stuff that comes out of research that you won't be able to implement the day after. It might take a year to implement. So perhaps put that ⁓ aside. And again, like I said, like pick one insight and just ask yourself, okay, this is something I can probably implement in the next week or so. And that could be, ⁓ research that's coming out of, ⁓ staff positioning. It could be about training, know, how do you communicate with patrons? These are things, these are different insights that can, I'm going to say easily for lack of a better word, that sometimes can easily be incorporated. And that may not cost you that much, that may not create, you know, that chaos of change. So that's what my recommendation.
Kirsten Barnes: Thank
Nathalie Martin: would be if it doesn't translate into a specific change, it's not useful yet. That's kind of like my go-to.
Kirsten Barnes: It goes back to what you said earlier about low cost, low resource, high impact, right? I love it.
Nathalie Martin: Exactly.
Daniel Peters: Yeah, it makes sense. kind of feels like how much this is coming back to just making that information more useful. for them to have, attainable for them to ⁓ resource they need it when certain things come up. But ⁓ it's just about collecting that research, but turning it into decisions that improve the safety of the facility and the communities. I'm assuming that's going to kind of go and connect with the bigger picture of the mission that you're trying to go ⁓ forward with.
Nathalie Martin: Absolutely. you know, honestly, my mission is making prevention practical. I think that that's where I have found the niche through the Swim Global Project, ⁓ through committee with AOAP and through other work that I've been doing ⁓ is understanding ⁓ how we make prevention practical. And so that's my underlying. ⁓ principle when I do a lot of work. I don't think that we need more awareness because I think the awareness exists. ⁓ think we need a way to make better decisions ⁓ sometimes are simpler but more impactful. So everything that I do comes back to like helping people, right? ⁓ It does ⁓ like. all the work that I do, whether it's in drowning prevention, whether it's communications with NGOs and international development, everything that I do comes back to helping people. And I think we need to understand that what we know and actually use is in a way paralleled, right? So what is it that we know? How do we use it? And does it save lives? I think again, ⁓ simple. ⁓ trajectory, like when you're planning your pipeline for, you know, for example, training or you're looking at your recruitment, you know, from a recruitment perspective, using that analogy, what do we know? So from a recruitment perspective, if you're recruiting lifeguards, we know that we need a hundred lifeguards this summer. We know that lifeguards are going to get paid $15 an hour. We know there are certifications they need. and we know that we have to put these lifeguards at three different pools. Again, I'm being very generic. then actually, how are we going to operate with a hundred lifeguards? That's when the operator begins with scheduling. ⁓ the usage mapping of all the three pools? ⁓ when the operational stuff comes in. ⁓ then ⁓ have to look at your practice. Like how are you practicing saving lives in your community? How are you putting that into practice as an operator? So I think those are kind of interesting questions. That's what I help with.
Daniel Peters: It definitely ties us into our next segment. So we're talking about our lessons in our leadership. So I'd to zoom out a little bit. What has been your journey from university risk management work to national advocacy ⁓ to drowning prevention efforts? ⁓ What it taught you about leadership?
Nathalie Martin: Okay. I think what I've learned myself is that from ⁓ 30 year trajectory, ⁓ when I started, ⁓ felt that being a leader meant setting out examples that ⁓ people to follow. ⁓ And think ⁓ there's a shift in the workplace, but I think that's how I kind of started my career in aquatics where ⁓ it like, this is the safety manual, this is the plan, and everyone needs to follow it because I said so. And that's being 100 % honest here. And then ⁓ now being like, no, just wait a minute here. And again, ⁓ disclosure, I haven't operated a facility ⁓ I think, what, 15, 16 years. ⁓ I know the workplace has changed quite a bit, but I think good leadership now for me, ⁓ is less about having all the answers and more about creating clarity. Also great leadership for me. Like I still have, you know, the mentors that I looked up to and looked to from 30 years ago. I still have those people in my life that now support me with the Swim Global project. And so I think good leadership is also understanding that everyone brings value. You know, I think we're obviously always constantly navigating uncertainty. We're always, ⁓ to figure out what the priorities are. ⁓ And I the underlying reality that we're continuously working with limited resources ⁓ sometimes make us make decisions ⁓ are short-sighted. because we have limited resources doesn't mean that our decisions ⁓ need to be We can still think big. Right? And so I think my role now is to help people focus on what really matters and keep moving forward, even when things aren't perfect. I think that's what I'm trying to do with the Swim Global Project. And I'm, you know, I really truly believe that the people that you're surrounded with are going to be the representative representation of who you are. but ⁓ a great one. mean, leadership is ⁓ such a fluid word, right? ⁓
Kirsten Barnes: I was ⁓ just a conference where people were complaining about their young staff, but I think you hit on something, right? That ⁓ leadership fluid and part of the fluid, the way we're moving now is we have to help our team understand the why behind what we're doing, which may take some time, but frankly, it also makes us better leaders and better advocates for what we need. You know, kind of as we think about that, what role do you think that curiosity? plays in good leadership, especially for leaderships who want to ⁓ keep learning and improving rather than just relying on the ways that they've always done it.
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ right. mean, the role of career, I think it's, I think it's everything. think again, ⁓ we're constantly being told ⁓ limited resources, we don't have funding, we can't get more staff or there's going to be cuts or ⁓ can't change those life jackets, even though they're falling apart, ⁓ When we're being bombarded with the reason why we cannot do something, you create that mindset with your team. ⁓ So when
Kirsten Barnes: You
Nathalie Martin: constantly sharing why you cannot do something, then your team becomes the why they can't do something, right? So I think, again, it's a culture, it's a mindset. Yeah, you said something really interesting, like, we've always done it this way. ⁓ boy, ⁓ That's like, ⁓ as well close shop. If you've always done it this way. ⁓ you're obviously not looking to the future and you're not looking for innovation and you're not looking for ways to improve anything in your operation. So might as well just lock up and go home, right? That's my philosophy might sound harsh, but as an entrepreneur, ⁓ someone that, you know, runs this global project that runs a consulting business ⁓ sits on several boards, I think that ⁓ I'm not looking forward, then I'm not looking to make things better in our space. And we can make things better every single day, even when we have limited resources. And so I think everything that we do impacts our teams, it impacts safety, and I think it impacts mindset. And you have to, if you do run a facility where staff or teams are counting on you for direction, you should really be on the forefront of that. And maybe that's hard, right? Sometimes to always be thinking about what's the next best thing. So find the players on your team that are the curious ones, that are looking for new ideas. You know, don't see it as competition. See it as, my God, this is amazing. I have this new lifeguard that's coming in and all they want to do is create new programming and, know, A, B and C. Wow, that's amazing. If you can have someone that has that curious mind, help to nurture it. That also is part of good leadership.
Daniel Peters: for an aquatic professional who may not have some of the global connections, like you said, wants to make that local impact, wants to take that next step. What's a good starting point that you recommend?
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ In what way? Like they want to...
Daniel Peters: I feel like they want to, I guess, take that next step in terms of they've already kind of used their resources at their facility. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nathalie Martin: they feel like they've plateaued. Okay. So they feel like they've plateaued. I would say, ⁓ know, if they can find a neighboring colleague, or if they can start looking at what else is being done around them, you know, for new ideas, ⁓ I that could be a really good starting point. I think that there's so many things that can be done. ⁓ let's say if you don't have too many constraints, of course, but if you feel like you've plateaued within your facility or your operation, I would say ask your team, right? Like you have maybe 20 brains or a hundred brains coming into work every day, ask your team what they would like to do because when your team is able to take ownership on something new, I think that also shifts the kind of like that attachment to your facility or your program. So I get it. Season after season, you're doing the same thing, trying to expand, but the schedule, I totally get it. It's a rotating door as well with staff. And so ask your team what they would like to see at their pool. I of course, if they're complaining that, hey, you know what, doesn't seem to be anything new, be like, you know what, why don't ⁓ let us know what you want? What would you like to see? So that's, that may be an easy fix, I think.
Kirsten Barnes: you I love that. And I think the other reason that we sometimes feel like we're plateaued or stuck is because resources, staff, and let's be honest, the political agendas within our communities or our organizations or our businesses sometimes make us feel like we can only go so far. So how do you recommend for aquatic professionals ways that they can maintain that safety? and water safety education are priority when they're kind of up against those things continuously.
Nathalie Martin: think, you know, find motivation outside your operation. You know, continue to try to get educated maybe in other areas. Get involved with your communities, maybe public health committee. Get involved with your municipality's workplace safety group. I think there's ways that individuals can really kind of look at the broader scope of their operation and for them to understand that their operation on a larger scale has a huge impact in the community. ⁓ I think that, you know, I challenge everyone listening to this podcast is get to know the people that are coming through your door. Remember their names, remember, you know, what lane they like to swim in. Remember how many kids they bring on that Saturday morning. And so instead of sitting in the office, and I know that we have a lot of administrative work that we have to do, but be super intentional with how you work. And I think building relationships with people is a really important step to expanding how you see your operation. So I think being intentional, Building relationships with people that are coming through your door and getting to know them on a personal level is what's really going to enhance your experience. Because I didn't think I was going to stay in this space. I I wrote my LSATs. I thought I was going to be a lawyer and that was it. I mean, maybe I still have it in me, but I definitely don't want to be a lawyer. know lots of lawyers now that are like, no way, don't ever do it. But you know what I'm saying? Like I want people to really enjoy the work that they're doing working at a facility. remember why you started too, right? Like we started to, I started to lifeguard because I thought, hey, it's gonna be fun. I'm gonna make some money and I'm gonna get a great tan cause I'm gonna work at the beach. you know, so fun as a 16, 17 year old. But like I said, I stayed for the mission. And then I found that the work was just so enriching, but it's because of the people and the relationships I've built, and it doesn't happen overnight.
Daniel Peters: Definitely doesn't it's definitely about the people. It's the reason I've been in the aquatic industry for over 20 years. Just it's it's for sure the people. So, right, we're going to do ⁓ lightning round. ⁓ so we've got some quick questions for you. We're looking for just quick answers.
Nathalie Martin: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Daniel Peters: All What's one small any aquatic facility could this month to be more safer?
Nathalie Martin: What one small change Re-evaluate their scanning zones perhaps and lifeguard positioning. Just one shift in rotation can make a small adjustment for a big difference. So for example, if you're rotating every 30 minutes, ⁓ rotate every 20 minutes. So I would say that would be one small change.
Kirsten Barnes: I love it. ⁓ What's a training tool or resource that you think every aquatic professional should know about?
Nathalie Martin: What's a training tool or resource that you think every Hmm resource. I think that every aquatic professional that is especially managing a facility should know how to read their aquatic logs. So they're, you know, mechanical rooms. They should really understand how their mechanical rooms work. I'm a big believer that in aquatics the saying, ⁓ it's not my job. I don't need to know it is.
Kirsten Barnes: you
Nathalie Martin: not acceptable. I think everybody should understand what everybody does. So that would be my recommendation for resource.
Daniel Peters: Okay. What is your favorite part of working in aquatics or global advocacy?
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ my gosh, I think you mentioned it, Daniel. It's the people. That is ⁓ favorite part ⁓ like I mentioned, I have over 45 ambassadors worldwide ⁓ and of them I haven't even met, but I feel so connected to them because we meet monthly, ⁓ we have WhatsApp group ⁓ and we have built community. ⁓ And I that's the beautiful thing about. the work that we all do is that we're building community, right? Think about all the connections that you've built over the years and the people that have connected because you hired them, right? So we're building community. I think that's my favorite.
Kirsten Barnes: That's awesome.
Daniel Peters: Yeah, that shared, yeah, it's that shared mental fortitude of that same concept that we all are trying to have that same end goal. that's, love to hear that.
Nathalie Martin: Yeah.
Kirsten Barnes: Awesome. And Natalie, if you could give your younger professional self, maybe the one who's just starting advocacy work, one piece of advice, what would it be?
Nathalie Martin: It would be that this is not a race, it is a marathon and it takes time and dedication ⁓ and be really intentional. steps win the race. That's what I would say.
Daniel Peters: Thank you so much for joining and sharing your experience, wisdom, and global perspective with the AOAP community.
Nathalie Martin: Thanks so much for having me.
Kirsten Barnes: Natalie, we especially appreciate the way you've helped connect research and communication and collaboration to the real operational decisions that aquatic professionals are making every day.
Nathalie Martin: Thank you so much more. I'm so excited. So excited.
Kirsten Barnes: No.
Daniel Peters: So if there's anything you want, if there's anything you want us for our listeners, we're going to link Natalie's work, including the Swim Global Project, Lifesaving ⁓ Canada initiatives and relevant AOAP resources in the show notes.
Nathalie Martin: Amazing.
Kirsten Barnes: And, and you know, Natalie, when we started this, said we wanted professionals who were listening to take at least one actionable item. And I'll tell you, Daniel and I just have been making notes through this and I have like five things written down. And the most important on my list is how does this change that I want to make impact how I operate tomorrow. So, I mean, what a sentence to just write down and leave on your computer as a reminder of what you're doing. I love it.
Nathalie Martin: this and I have like five things written down and the most important on my list is how does this change that I want So, I mean, a sentence to just write down and leave on your computer.
Kirsten Barnes: So listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with another aquatic professional and keep the conversation going in your networks.
Nathalie Martin: So listeners, you enjoyed this episode, please. Awesome.
Daniel Peters: To learn more about AOAP's training, conference opportunities, and drowning prevention resources, aquaticpros.org. Thanks for listening and see next time on AOAP discussion from the Deep End podcast ⁓ made for aquatic professionals by aquatic professionals.
Kirsten Barnes: Natalie Martin is a dynamic communications executive, nonprofit advocate, and strategic visionary. She's managed multimillion dollar budgets, advised senior leaders, built cross sector alliances, and championed life saving initiatives globally. From her legislative advocacy work in Florida to her leadership within the Swim Global project to her research and contributions at ⁓ Natalie has made an impact across government, academia, nonprofit spaces, and beyond. We're really excited to have her here to share her insights from her journey across continents, cultures, and causes.
Daniel Peters: ⁓ Natalie, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Can you start by telling us a little bit about your work across the different regions of the world and how those experiences have shaped the way you think about the aquatic safety, communication, and prevention?
Nathalie Martin: Amazing. Well, thanks for having me. What an introduction. So my work really does come up. You know, I've done a lot of work, ⁓ only in North America, but ⁓ Latin America specifically and in Africa. ⁓ I've also ⁓ with collaborators ⁓ Europe, Australia, even Asia. And I think that over the last three decades, really, you know, we think the world is so big. And really what this has done for me and my type of work is that it's really reinforced the idea that we are so much smaller we think ⁓ ⁓ have so much in common. ⁓ my work really focuses ⁓ ⁓ the gap between people who are in the field and advocacy ⁓ ⁓ the work in programming and then bringing that closer to sharing stories. ⁓ So right now with the Swim Global project, ⁓ idea with this project is that I get to share stories from around the world. And that to me is ⁓ such fulfilling thing to do right now because ⁓ are of advocates around the world, hundreds and thousands of advocates and programmers that are just doing the work. ⁓ And so they need someone to reach out to to say, hey, check it out. I'm in Nigeria. This is what I'm doing. And to share those stories. So that's the big bulk of what I'm doing right now with the Swim Global Project. Of course, like you know, in my consulting business, I work with several NGOs and nonprofits that work in international aid. So that gap or that intersection between international aid ⁓ Drowning prevention work and public health is really closely tied. ⁓ so when I launched the Swim Global Project, the idea was that we need somewhere where these individuals from around the world can come together, network, share their stories, ⁓ and feel that they're being supported ⁓ and a different type of conversation.
Kirsten Barnes: love it. So you've talked about really working ⁓ You've worked in over 20 countries. You've worked with various cultures. ⁓ one challenge or pattern that you've seen consistently across communities when it comes to water safety? ⁓
Nathalie Martin: such a great question. think what I see most often ⁓ that there are issues that are deeply rooted when it comes to ⁓ when it comes to awareness, ⁓ even when it comes to assumptions. Like mentioned, the language around drowning prevention is very similar all around the world. And so what I'm seeing, especially as I'm bringing ⁓ individuals together around the world ⁓ under the Global project is that there is such a lack, there's a lot of lack of infrastructure. you're in North America, whether you're in Africa, of course the resources are slightly different. But when I've worked where people live in or around water, oftentimes they don't know how to swim. They don't know, you know, where to get that information. ⁓ Or even when I've worked in areas where facilities are world class, a lot of the good practices that we try to advocate are ignored.
Kirsten Barnes: I ⁓ we hear those conversations ⁓ at home every day, right?
Daniel Peters: And it's coming from a place where you don't really know anybody else is experiencing these issues because you're so kind of, I don't want to say self-centered, but you're focused on your facility and what's going on in your organization. So you've had the opportunity to work in both legislative and grassroots spaces. did you kind of begin to identify your voice ⁓ ⁓ that could make the greatest impact?
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ great question. One of the things that I try to do and that I've learned to do, because this doesn't happen overnight, is really trying, first of all, to understand the community that I'm living in, but then understand the communities that others are living in as well, and understanding what they're trying to shape around drowning prevention and water safety. I think that the biggest thing for me has been to try to understand behavior, try to understand the culture, and really try to see how people are actually interacting with water in their daily lives. And I think if we miss that, even the best programs are gonna fall short. So to answer your question around how do I bring legislation into the community or how do I get that part of the conversation going is again, It takes time to identify where the gaps are in our communities and what those challenges are. And I think we just really need to pay attention. I think that we live in a very fast paced, as you know, we live in a very fast paced in our lives and want quick access. ⁓ But advocates, we have to step back a little bit ⁓ and look at the big picture. And I think we also have to try to figure out Who are those stakeholders that can help us move that conversation so that we can have an impact? And again, that takes time to identify.
Kirsten Barnes: something that you said really resonated with me. ⁓ How do you work to put your own personal, biases isn't the right word, but your own personal experiences and privileges to the side so that you can really connect with people ⁓ as you're trying to understand their goals and how approaching these things.
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ my gosh, that is such a fair question because we know that many of us come from a perspective of privilege. And sometimes I didn't realize that perspective of privilege until I started working with underserved communities. ⁓ for me, as you know, I'm originally from Canada and I worked a lot with the Life Saving Society. ⁓ I was fortunate to be given opportunities to work in underserved. ⁓ communities, went as far north in Nunavut, which is far Arctic, to Venezuela and to the far south. And I saw exactly what the impact was when communities just didn't have a concept of what it meant to be safe around water. And the other thing for me, you when someone asks me, hey, when did you learn to swim? I actually don't remember not knowing how to swim. ⁓ And so as the decades pass, when I started living in the US, we always knew that there were barriers around access. We always knew that race also played into why certain communities did not learn how to swim. But I really got into that history part when I started living in Florida. And it started really resonating that, I don't have to go to the Caribbean. I don't have to go to the Bahamas. to understand where that history and that barrier exists that so many communities for generations did not learn how to swim. And so again, I think you have to be able to look at the history. You have to be able to understand again, going back to that culture and behavior. Because for me, right, when we're 16, 17, we become lifeguards really because it's so much fun. We want to be part of that. identity, but what I often say is that I'm staying and doing this work because of the mission. And I had to educate and almost re-educate myself throughout the last decade to fully grasp the impact of what generational barriers caused to so many communities that do not have access or never learned to swim. ⁓ so from an international perspective, when I look at even programs in the Caribbean. I've even shifted a little bit of my mindset We know that ecotourism has always been very popular, but I think we're shifting that type of work instead of saying, hey, I'm gonna go into a community for two weeks and teach everyone either how to swim or. get them certified as lifeguards. Instead, we're looking at it from a how do we build a sustainable program that has the most capacity without us coming into a community and then leaving? How do we make sure that these communities have resources? So it's very complex. I think I had to relearn ⁓ to do things in the sense of ⁓ making assumptions about communities. ⁓ I think that when I launched the Swim Global project, I didn't really grasp how much I would learn from the individuals that are involved in the Swim Global project. I had an idea, but then as you know, I have ambassadors all over the world. I have about 45 ambassadors. And what they're showing us is that they're doing so much with so little in some cases. And so that's been a really big learning for me.
Kirsten Barnes: That's really amazing to be able to kind of let our perspectives grow outside of what we know, as Daniel said earlier. You know, part of that is you talked about disparities, barriers, all of those things. We know the data is there. And one thing that we have really been talking about, especially for the last year at AOAP, is how to take that data, how to take other research that's out there or insights and how do we actually apply it in real world settings. From your perspective, what helps bridge that gap between research and data into actual action?
Nathalie Martin: Again, it's research that has happened and that is continuing to within this drowning prevention sector ⁓ is growing. There's better understanding on behavior. There's better understanding ⁓ about ⁓ And then there's also research that is ⁓ very on specific areas that perhaps need a little bit ⁓ more support that program or the training systems can grow. I think there's two words for me that come up when I think about ⁓ do we bridge research and how do we make it ⁓ to the operators, for example. ⁓ think it's about simplicity and it's about relevance. ⁓ you have researchers sharing their information and sharing their findings, It's fantastic. think it's great that we're having these conversations, but if they're not able to then translate what they are finding into kind of like that real world language, then you lose the individuals or the organizations that are actually gonna apply that research. For example, if there's research ⁓ some aspects of lifeguard curriculum or lifeguard training, if that research doesn't seem quite relevant, ⁓ if the research shows that ⁓ going to be very difficult to implement, ⁓ for example, could be research out there right now that states the best lifeguard ⁓ for safety and ⁓ is eight lifeguards one swimmer. Fantastic. And, you know, they identify why that works. Well, in a real world, we know that that is very unrealistic, that we're gonna be able to have one lifeguard to eight swimmers. So I'm just giving you a very simple example. Again, ⁓ think that we need to make sure that the research is being translated ⁓ that someone or organizations that are able to look at that information. ⁓ can actually say yes, this makes sense, this is relevant, and this is how we can apply the findings.
Daniel Peters: talk about those two words simplicity and relevance. think it's those resonates so much with every organization, no matter the size, or what they're even doing, whether it's a water park or a pool, it kind of bridges it all together, can you walk us through what your approaches for building those large scale initiatives, whether it's drowning prevention campaign, a partnership effort, or even a community driven project? Where's the starting point?
Nathalie Martin: Well, the starting point is to identify that there's an issue or that there's a problem or that there's a gap that exists. So that's the first thing. And again, my guiding principle, because through the Swim Global project and a lot of the work that I'm doing now, my guiding principle ⁓ is ⁓ keep again, simple, but keep things low cost or low resourced, ⁓ but that the most impact. ⁓ So that's how I kind of start with ⁓ I look at a project or a potential ⁓ program. ⁓ that's the first thing, keep things really low resourced if possible, ⁓ what can have the most impact. ⁓ then from there, ⁓ really look at ⁓ are some of the stakeholders who can benefit from being at the table from the very beginning of a conversation or from the very beginning of a project. And so, you you do all that mapping to make sure that ⁓ got to have those individuals at the table from the beginning. Very rarely have I seen ⁓ large projects ⁓ that up being quite successful ⁓ by people come in midway. We know that that's very disruptive ⁓ and there's people that have different agendas and different priorities. ⁓ So starting off with having everyone at the table and I... often say this, I've built business networks and other networks, you'll never take away from your priority by bringing somebody else to sit next to you at the table. I have not seen that happen. I think there's a little bit of gatekeeping when it comes to research. I think there's a little bit of gatekeeping when it comes to maybe some of the work that we're doing in aquatics. Of course, we know there's ⁓ know, funding sometimes that is very, very small in some areas. So when it comes to new initiatives, there might be a little bit of, I wouldn't say fighting, but there's definitely tension around initiatives that require funding and of course, some politics. But on a lower, on a smaller scale, I think it's really important that stakeholders feel that they have a voice. These are your partners. And then you really have to understand what is the outcome that you want. What is the outcome that you want out of your program or your project ⁓ you get started? And you have to have a really strong leader that can bring through basically all of those tasks and all of those projects to fruition and very clear communication. Again, it starts ⁓ really from the
Kirsten Barnes: You know, you talked about different stakeholders who have different ideas and potentially different agendas coming into a project and that, as many of us know, can derail a project very quickly. But you also talked about making sure that everyone's clear on the outcome and that's aligned. Have you run into situations where some of those different competing agendas internally have started to take ⁓ overall goals off track and how have you kind of reigned that back in? ⁓
Nathalie Martin: Well, I I think it's through clarity and communication and not being afraid, right, to have difficult conversations. mean, ultimately, if you're the individual that's responsible for some of these initiatives, you need to be able to have those difficult conversations. And I think that oftentimes, miscommunication or misinterpretation is what causes some of these problems. Also, when we try to...
Kirsten Barnes: Yeah.
Nathalie Martin: over complicate initiatives. think that's where people, right, become confused. And so I would say that those are the two things for me ⁓ often have been the issue where things become maybe a little bit difficult ⁓ where there's assumptions made and then ⁓ not to have difficult conversations. And so I think that ⁓ if want to succeed, especially in the second ⁓ we really need to be honest, right? And we need to be open-minded and we need to be flexible because it is true that sometimes priorities will change. mean, larger scale projects, maybe you're going to have a new stakeholder that has to be involved at some point in your project, ⁓ not be happy about it, but then how do you stay flexible? How do you maintain the big picture? ⁓ And I think communication, lack of communication, ⁓ things really confusing ⁓ having a lack of clarity I think is what causes most problems. that's comes to mind anyways right now.
Daniel Peters: Yeah, and you talked about the simplicity of it and taking the chances and doing these different things. What's one thing you've tried along the way that maybe has been a simple fix that has even worked out better than you probably expected that it would?
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ that's a great one, I'm thinking. Well, I mean, a good example is ⁓ the research committee, for example, that we're working to develop here at AOAP. ⁓ think that I tried when we first started talking about ⁓ what committee would look like and what some of the priorities would be, ⁓ I tried to keep it simple. ⁓ I that when we try to overcomplicate things, ⁓ That's when sometimes projects fail and that's where people start to disengage. ⁓ think that when you ⁓ to keep, again, ⁓ understanding the end goal and also understanding that everybody has their own strengths ⁓ and ⁓ projects not about you, projects about the collective. And so that's a really good frame of mind. That's my mindset is that ⁓ ⁓ With this AOAP research committee, this not Natalie's committee, it's not necessarily Kristin's committee. It's really all of our committee and we're doing collective work ⁓ that in a year from now we can see what we've accomplished. ⁓ I overcomplicate things or if my asks or the tasks get really complicated or confusing, ⁓ again, going back to and clarity, ⁓ I think that's where people start to disengage. And again, not being afraid to be honest. If things are not working out with someone you're working with, have those tough conversations. Also make sure that you have regular ⁓ that there's ⁓ language around work that you're doing. Yeah, ⁓ that's what I wanna on that one. ⁓
Kirsten Barnes: I love it. Also, I'm so excited about the research committee. You have so many good people in this group and you all have clarity on where you're going. I'm just very excited about it. think a year from now, the conversation we have around this is just going to be life-changing for people in the field. But I digress. So you've been doing this a while. Were there any strategies or outreach methods that you thought This is it. I am gonna, this is gonna be a hit. And they just did not land the way that you thought they would.
Nathalie Martin: Yeah, and I just realized with the last question, it was asked about like, ⁓ ⁓ things turn out better than expected? Certainly with the work that we do, I know that this word comes up often is that we work in silos and that, ⁓ you know, keep the people we know within our own groups and ⁓ within our projects. ⁓ And what I found, what works well, what has been working well is that inviting organizations or individuals from outside the typical sort of aquatic circle ⁓ makes for really diverse conversation. ⁓ that's been really interesting to me is that, ⁓ you know, those different perspectives ⁓ ⁓ have different ideas on how to get things done. And that really excites me. excites me. On the flip side, I think that assuming that there's good information out there will automatically change behavior. I think for me, that's been a big learning ⁓ that, well, the information is there. ⁓ should be enough to change behavior. And we know that it doesn't. We know that people don't act just because something's true, right? ⁓ So I think, again, when something doesn't work out, I think we have to go back to the drawing board or however, you know, wherever that is placed. And we have to consider people's habits. ⁓ We to consider, you know, the community environment. ⁓ And I think a big shift for me ⁓ over last couple of decades has been ⁓ realizing communication is just as important as the message itself. So we could have ton of posters out there, you know, with water safety education, and we still get drownings or we still have accidents. And so I think that we have to look at all the processes and see, did we do the right thing by just putting out posters? How is that message being delivered? And so I would say ⁓ when it comes to community activation, You have to be really careful on what you communicate, how you communicate, and really again, going back to that end result, what is the behavior you want out of your community? And so we know that that takes a really long time to change behavior. ⁓ One of the things in Florida that we're trying to do is telling people like swim where there are lifeguards. Right? But we have to be repetitive and we have to demonstrate why swimming where there are lifeguards is a benefit to you. So multi-layered, everything is multi-layered in what we do.
Daniel Peters: Yeah, and all communities are so different too in the the respects that they're from the top bottom. It's how they go about things in their decision making and just their openness to receive just that data and that information. So I think it starts with the leaders for sure and getting them on board. But you're multilingual. You work across different cultures. How do you bring those communities, those leaders ⁓ other partner organizations on board with that shared vision?
Nathalie Martin: Mm-hmm. Again, like I don't make it about myself at all. I think it's really important that you meet people where they are. Again, doing your homework, you don't make assumptions. So you really have to meet people where they are. ⁓ This understanding what their priorities are, ⁓ understanding their constraints are. ⁓ And you have to try to understand what their ⁓ skepticism is, right? So as you know, I co-lead the ⁓ Florida Water Smart Task Force. ⁓ which is the statewide coalition for water safety. And in Florida, like every other state, it's so diverse. And there's so many different types of people at the table that you really have to have such a great understanding of where these organizations and people are coming from. I personally, you know, and I've learned this along the way, believe me, like when I started off in my career, I mean, I was going in with my agenda and saying, hey, this is how we're going to do it. And that blew up in my face. Like this is like from learning, you know, been doing this for three decades. So thinking, you know, I had to prove myself at that boardroom meeting and I had to, ⁓ know, tell people how or share with people how much I knew when in fact, it was the opposite. ⁓ learned that I want to know where people are coming from. I want to understand what their community is all about. ⁓ really, it's about listening more. Honestly, it's about listening more, maybe talking a little less. And that's how I connect. That's how I connect now. But believe me, I had moments in my career where I was like, wow, that just did not go well. Sometimes ego comes in the way.
Kirsten Barnes: ⁓ true story. You know, you talked about community activation and Daniel asked you about how you're bringing leaders together. Some of the time for aquatic professionals in the field, they are the professional voice. They are the experts. So for those aquatic professionals who are listening right now, translating what we know.
Nathalie Martin: True story, true story, sadly.
Kirsten Barnes: so that other people can hear it, whether it's the people who hold the purse strings in our organization or the people in our community who need the information is really important. So how can aquatic professionals take this broader research, prevention insights, and then use them to inform staffing, training, supervision, public education at the local level?
Nathalie Martin: you Yeah, and you just mentioned so many things, right? I think for aquatic professionals, especially those that are starting or midway or ⁓ you are in that journey, ⁓ really think you still have to start small and make it actionable. A lot of times we hear ⁓ from in the field that ⁓ I have too many things. I don't know what my priorities are. ⁓ I like I have 20 priorities. ⁓ Well, you can try to... bring those down into actionable items, pick one insight and ask yourself, how does this change how I operate tomorrow? Right? So if it's about, okay, well, I need a million dollars. If not, can't, you know, offer this swim program. If you're focusing on that one problem or that one, you know, ⁓ of either the research that's been done. ⁓ that's not going to help you tomorrow. So I think when you look at the research and you're given ⁓ tools or you're given ideas or even given ideas on how to perform ⁓ or lifeguard recruitment ⁓ ⁓ safety plans, ⁓ a look at everything that is presented and look at it from a very small lens. Look at it from ⁓ What can I implement tomorrow? So obviously there's some stuff that comes out of research that you won't be able to implement the day after. It might take a year to implement. So perhaps put that ⁓ aside. And again, like I said, like pick one insight and just ask yourself, okay, this is something I can probably implement in the next week or so. And that could be, ⁓ research that's coming out of, ⁓ staff positioning. It could be about training, know, how do you communicate with patrons? These are things, these are different insights that can, I'm going to say easily for lack of a better word, that sometimes can easily be incorporated. And that may not cost you that much, that may not create, you know, that chaos of change. So that's what my recommendation.
Kirsten Barnes: Thank
Nathalie Martin: would be if it doesn't translate into a specific change, it's not useful yet. That's kind of like my go-to.
Kirsten Barnes: It goes back to what you said earlier about low cost, low resource, high impact, right? I love it.
Nathalie Martin: Exactly.
Daniel Peters: Yeah, it makes sense. kind of feels like how much this is coming back to just making that information more useful. for them to have, attainable for them to ⁓ resource they need it when certain things come up. But ⁓ it's just about collecting that research, but turning it into decisions that improve the safety of the facility and the communities. I'm assuming that's going to kind of go and connect with the bigger picture of the mission that you're trying to go ⁓ forward with.
Nathalie Martin: Absolutely. you know, honestly, my mission is making prevention practical. I think that that's where I have found the niche through the Swim Global Project, ⁓ through committee with AOAP and through other work that I've been doing ⁓ is understanding ⁓ how we make prevention practical. And so that's my underlying. ⁓ principle when I do a lot of work. I don't think that we need more awareness because I think the awareness exists. ⁓ think we need a way to make better decisions ⁓ sometimes are simpler but more impactful. So everything that I do comes back to like helping people, right? ⁓ It does ⁓ like. all the work that I do, whether it's in drowning prevention, whether it's communications with NGOs and international development, everything that I do comes back to helping people. And I think we need to understand that what we know and actually use is in a way paralleled, right? So what is it that we know? How do we use it? And does it save lives? I think again, ⁓ simple. ⁓ trajectory, like when you're planning your pipeline for, you know, for example, training or you're looking at your recruitment, you know, from a recruitment perspective, using that analogy, what do we know? So from a recruitment perspective, if you're recruiting lifeguards, we know that we need a hundred lifeguards this summer. We know that lifeguards are going to get paid $15 an hour. We know there are certifications they need. and we know that we have to put these lifeguards at three different pools. Again, I'm being very generic. then actually, how are we going to operate with a hundred lifeguards? That's when the operator begins with scheduling. ⁓ the usage mapping of all the three pools? ⁓ when the operational stuff comes in. ⁓ then ⁓ have to look at your practice. Like how are you practicing saving lives in your community? How are you putting that into practice as an operator? So I think those are kind of interesting questions. That's what I help with.
Daniel Peters: It definitely ties us into our next segment. So we're talking about our lessons in our leadership. So I'd to zoom out a little bit. What has been your journey from university risk management work to national advocacy ⁓ to drowning prevention efforts? ⁓ What it taught you about leadership?
Nathalie Martin: Okay. I think what I've learned myself is that from ⁓ 30 year trajectory, ⁓ when I started, ⁓ felt that being a leader meant setting out examples that ⁓ people to follow. ⁓ And think ⁓ there's a shift in the workplace, but I think that's how I kind of started my career in aquatics where ⁓ it like, this is the safety manual, this is the plan, and everyone needs to follow it because I said so. And that's being 100 % honest here. And then ⁓ now being like, no, just wait a minute here. And again, ⁓ disclosure, I haven't operated a facility ⁓ I think, what, 15, 16 years. ⁓ I know the workplace has changed quite a bit, but I think good leadership now for me, ⁓ is less about having all the answers and more about creating clarity. Also great leadership for me. Like I still have, you know, the mentors that I looked up to and looked to from 30 years ago. I still have those people in my life that now support me with the Swim Global project. And so I think good leadership is also understanding that everyone brings value. You know, I think we're obviously always constantly navigating uncertainty. We're always, ⁓ to figure out what the priorities are. ⁓ And I the underlying reality that we're continuously working with limited resources ⁓ sometimes make us make decisions ⁓ are short-sighted. because we have limited resources doesn't mean that our decisions ⁓ need to be We can still think big. Right? And so I think my role now is to help people focus on what really matters and keep moving forward, even when things aren't perfect. I think that's what I'm trying to do with the Swim Global Project. And I'm, you know, I really truly believe that the people that you're surrounded with are going to be the representative representation of who you are. but ⁓ a great one. mean, leadership is ⁓ such a fluid word, right? ⁓
Kirsten Barnes: I was ⁓ just a conference where people were complaining about their young staff, but I think you hit on something, right? That ⁓ leadership fluid and part of the fluid, the way we're moving now is we have to help our team understand the why behind what we're doing, which may take some time, but frankly, it also makes us better leaders and better advocates for what we need. You know, kind of as we think about that, what role do you think that curiosity? plays in good leadership, especially for leaderships who want to ⁓ keep learning and improving rather than just relying on the ways that they've always done it.
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ right. mean, the role of career, I think it's, I think it's everything. think again, ⁓ we're constantly being told ⁓ limited resources, we don't have funding, we can't get more staff or there's going to be cuts or ⁓ can't change those life jackets, even though they're falling apart, ⁓ When we're being bombarded with the reason why we cannot do something, you create that mindset with your team. ⁓ So when
Kirsten Barnes: You
Nathalie Martin: constantly sharing why you cannot do something, then your team becomes the why they can't do something, right? So I think, again, it's a culture, it's a mindset. Yeah, you said something really interesting, like, we've always done it this way. ⁓ boy, ⁓ That's like, ⁓ as well close shop. If you've always done it this way. ⁓ you're obviously not looking to the future and you're not looking for innovation and you're not looking for ways to improve anything in your operation. So might as well just lock up and go home, right? That's my philosophy might sound harsh, but as an entrepreneur, ⁓ someone that, you know, runs this global project that runs a consulting business ⁓ sits on several boards, I think that ⁓ I'm not looking forward, then I'm not looking to make things better in our space. And we can make things better every single day, even when we have limited resources. And so I think everything that we do impacts our teams, it impacts safety, and I think it impacts mindset. And you have to, if you do run a facility where staff or teams are counting on you for direction, you should really be on the forefront of that. And maybe that's hard, right? Sometimes to always be thinking about what's the next best thing. So find the players on your team that are the curious ones, that are looking for new ideas. You know, don't see it as competition. See it as, my God, this is amazing. I have this new lifeguard that's coming in and all they want to do is create new programming and, know, A, B and C. Wow, that's amazing. If you can have someone that has that curious mind, help to nurture it. That also is part of good leadership.
Daniel Peters: for an aquatic professional who may not have some of the global connections, like you said, wants to make that local impact, wants to take that next step. What's a good starting point that you recommend?
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ In what way? Like they want to...
Daniel Peters: I feel like they want to, I guess, take that next step in terms of they've already kind of used their resources at their facility. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nathalie Martin: they feel like they've plateaued. Okay. So they feel like they've plateaued. I would say, ⁓ know, if they can find a neighboring colleague, or if they can start looking at what else is being done around them, you know, for new ideas, ⁓ I that could be a really good starting point. I think that there's so many things that can be done. ⁓ let's say if you don't have too many constraints, of course, but if you feel like you've plateaued within your facility or your operation, I would say ask your team, right? Like you have maybe 20 brains or a hundred brains coming into work every day, ask your team what they would like to do because when your team is able to take ownership on something new, I think that also shifts the kind of like that attachment to your facility or your program. So I get it. Season after season, you're doing the same thing, trying to expand, but the schedule, I totally get it. It's a rotating door as well with staff. And so ask your team what they would like to see at their pool. I of course, if they're complaining that, hey, you know what, doesn't seem to be anything new, be like, you know what, why don't ⁓ let us know what you want? What would you like to see? So that's, that may be an easy fix, I think.
Kirsten Barnes: you I love that. And I think the other reason that we sometimes feel like we're plateaued or stuck is because resources, staff, and let's be honest, the political agendas within our communities or our organizations or our businesses sometimes make us feel like we can only go so far. So how do you recommend for aquatic professionals ways that they can maintain that safety? and water safety education are priority when they're kind of up against those things continuously.
Nathalie Martin: think, you know, find motivation outside your operation. You know, continue to try to get educated maybe in other areas. Get involved with your communities, maybe public health committee. Get involved with your municipality's workplace safety group. I think there's ways that individuals can really kind of look at the broader scope of their operation and for them to understand that their operation on a larger scale has a huge impact in the community. ⁓ I think that, you know, I challenge everyone listening to this podcast is get to know the people that are coming through your door. Remember their names, remember, you know, what lane they like to swim in. Remember how many kids they bring on that Saturday morning. And so instead of sitting in the office, and I know that we have a lot of administrative work that we have to do, but be super intentional with how you work. And I think building relationships with people is a really important step to expanding how you see your operation. So I think being intentional, Building relationships with people that are coming through your door and getting to know them on a personal level is what's really going to enhance your experience. Because I didn't think I was going to stay in this space. I I wrote my LSATs. I thought I was going to be a lawyer and that was it. I mean, maybe I still have it in me, but I definitely don't want to be a lawyer. know lots of lawyers now that are like, no way, don't ever do it. But you know what I'm saying? Like I want people to really enjoy the work that they're doing working at a facility. remember why you started too, right? Like we started to, I started to lifeguard because I thought, hey, it's gonna be fun. I'm gonna make some money and I'm gonna get a great tan cause I'm gonna work at the beach. you know, so fun as a 16, 17 year old. But like I said, I stayed for the mission. And then I found that the work was just so enriching, but it's because of the people and the relationships I've built, and it doesn't happen overnight.
Daniel Peters: Definitely doesn't it's definitely about the people. It's the reason I've been in the aquatic industry for over 20 years. Just it's it's for sure the people. So, right, we're going to do ⁓ lightning round. ⁓ so we've got some quick questions for you. We're looking for just quick answers.
Nathalie Martin: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Daniel Peters: All What's one small any aquatic facility could this month to be more safer?
Nathalie Martin: What one small change Re-evaluate their scanning zones perhaps and lifeguard positioning. Just one shift in rotation can make a small adjustment for a big difference. So for example, if you're rotating every 30 minutes, ⁓ rotate every 20 minutes. So I would say that would be one small change.
Kirsten Barnes: I love it. ⁓ What's a training tool or resource that you think every aquatic professional should know about?
Nathalie Martin: What's a training tool or resource that you think every Hmm resource. I think that every aquatic professional that is especially managing a facility should know how to read their aquatic logs. So they're, you know, mechanical rooms. They should really understand how their mechanical rooms work. I'm a big believer that in aquatics the saying, ⁓ it's not my job. I don't need to know it is.
Kirsten Barnes: you
Nathalie Martin: not acceptable. I think everybody should understand what everybody does. So that would be my recommendation for resource.
Daniel Peters: Okay. What is your favorite part of working in aquatics or global advocacy?
Nathalie Martin: ⁓ my gosh, I think you mentioned it, Daniel. It's the people. That is ⁓ favorite part ⁓ like I mentioned, I have over 45 ambassadors worldwide ⁓ and of them I haven't even met, but I feel so connected to them because we meet monthly, ⁓ we have WhatsApp group ⁓ and we have built community. ⁓ And I that's the beautiful thing about. the work that we all do is that we're building community, right? Think about all the connections that you've built over the years and the people that have connected because you hired them, right? So we're building community. I think that's my favorite.
Kirsten Barnes: That's awesome.
Daniel Peters: Yeah, that shared, yeah, it's that shared mental fortitude of that same concept that we all are trying to have that same end goal. that's, love to hear that.
Nathalie Martin: Yeah.
Kirsten Barnes: Awesome. And Natalie, if you could give your younger professional self, maybe the one who's just starting advocacy work, one piece of advice, what would it be?
Nathalie Martin: It would be that this is not a race, it is a marathon and it takes time and dedication ⁓ and be really intentional. steps win the race. That's what I would say.
Daniel Peters: Thank you so much for joining and sharing your experience, wisdom, and global perspective with the AOAP community.
Nathalie Martin: Thanks so much for having me.
Kirsten Barnes: Natalie, we especially appreciate the way you've helped connect research and communication and collaboration to the real operational decisions that aquatic professionals are making every day.
Nathalie Martin: Thank you so much more. I'm so excited. So excited.
Kirsten Barnes: No.
Daniel Peters: So if there's anything you want, if there's anything you want us for our listeners, we're going to link Natalie's work, including the Swim Global Project, Lifesaving ⁓ Canada initiatives and relevant AOAP resources in the show notes.
Nathalie Martin: Amazing.
Kirsten Barnes: And, and you know, Natalie, when we started this, said we wanted professionals who were listening to take at least one actionable item. And I'll tell you, Daniel and I just have been making notes through this and I have like five things written down. And the most important on my list is how does this change that I want to make impact how I operate tomorrow. So, I mean, what a sentence to just write down and leave on your computer as a reminder of what you're doing. I love it.
Nathalie Martin: this and I have like five things written down and the most important on my list is how does this change that I want So, I mean, a sentence to just write down and leave on your computer.
Kirsten Barnes: So listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with another aquatic professional and keep the conversation going in your networks.
Nathalie Martin: So listeners, you enjoyed this episode, please. Awesome.
Daniel Peters: To learn more about AOAP's training, conference opportunities, and drowning prevention resources, aquaticpros.org. Thanks for listening and see next time on AOAP discussion from the Deep End podcast ⁓ made for aquatic professionals by aquatic professionals.
