99 Dev Problems with David Marshall

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Good morning to those of you who are celebrating their mornings or good afternoon or evening.
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Maybe you're listening to this two weeks from now.
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I have a very scratchy voice, so I'm going to try not to talk very much.
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That's pretty usual.
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I like to shine the light on my guests anyways, but I can be chatty too, as like right now,
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right?
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Anyway, so 99 Dev Problems.
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Excited to chat with David Marshall today.
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David, I would love for you to introduce yourself.
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Yeah, thank you so much.
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So David Marshall, I am Kansas City, Missouri based, not Kansas.
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People seem to not know that Kansas City spreads out against both states, which is really interesting.
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So if you ever think about Kansas City Royals or the Chiefs, they're on the Missouri side,
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even though I think they're lobbying to try to get them on the Kansas side, but that's
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a different story.
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Yeah, so Software Engineer, I've been professional, so to speak, for about three years, currently
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working for a company called Breakthrough Fuel.
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They're based out of Green Bay, Wisconsin.
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And yeah, so I've been doing that for a bit.
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Married, have two kids, have five Scaly Pets and one, I don't know what you'd consider
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a frog, like squishy, slimy.
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I don't know.
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She's a big girl.
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She's a big dude.
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But yeah, just do a lot of stuff with the family.
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But yeah, I know we'll go over that a little bit more, but I've also been a professional
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touring musician.
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There's been a handful of things I've done over the years.
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I love that.
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And honestly, I think that's like, it's very much, you know, there's an essence, right,
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in our industry of like, you know, either creative people or very just technical people
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and, you know, all of the sort of melds together.
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But it's really fun to see the creativity and like, I didn't actually realize how many
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developers were like musicians or like creative in that way, which is, I don't know, I guess,
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like, I mean, it makes sense generally, humans do have creative outlets, but I just think
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it's interesting how many developers enjoy music.
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Is there a genre or specific sort of, you know, sector of music you enjoy most?
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Oh, man, that's a tough question.
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So like, what I perform, you know, I'm more on like the heavy persuasion, right?
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So like I've done like what people would consider like hardcore metal, death metal, stuff like
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that, you know, vocally, but like, I mean, musically what I listen to.
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Lately, there's this band called Sleep Token, but I've listened to a lot.
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They're based out of the UK.
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And it's like, I can't even explain how interesting this band is like instrumentally really heavy
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vocally can be kind of heavy, but more like his vocals would sound, I don't know, it's
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I'll send it to you later.
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But if you haven't listened to them, I think the newest album is called Take Me Back to
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Eden and it's just it's phenomenal.
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But like I love jazz, I love old country jazz classical, I listen to a lot of classical
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I even listen to like Swan Lake, you know, I was listening to that the other day, like
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it's just it's whatever.
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I mean, music's music.
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So I honestly, I feel the same way and like I can really, I don't know, I get like sort
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of like therapy for music, but the same time I can't listen to music with words when I'm
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working, it has to be very like classical like wordless music.
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I'm not sure the actual phrase for that.
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Like instrumental.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, very much instrumental.
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So I end up listening to like classical or things like that.
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Honestly, I should bring jazz into it.
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I just like love music.
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I love like what it does.
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Like it just gives me a vibe and if it's sort of a negative music, I like can very much
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sort of relate and ebb and flow emotionally to music, which I feel like is, I don't know,
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probably usual and normal for everyone else, but I love it when I'm like in those moods
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and I want to sort of maximize the mood that I'm in.
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Oh, I've met people.
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I've met people who don't like or listen to music and I'm like, who hurt you?
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Like, how is this your life?
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Oh, who hurt you?
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I have a friend.
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He was actually on the show, so Joe Casabona, shout out to you.
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He doesn't like animals.
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You and I can relate to that.
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And I'm like, yeah.
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And I'm like, what?
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I'm like, I'm really, really like you, Joe, but like, I almost don't know if I can be
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your friend because you don't like animals, but I will say he got his kids a dog this
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last Christmas.
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So he is like, he's, he's, he's opening up.
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So I'm like, oh man, you're my favorite person, Joe.
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It'll turn around.
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He'll, it's always the whole thing of like, you get your kids a pet and you're like, ah,
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whatever, and then you end up owning that pet more than your kids do.
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He won't be pleased to hear that.
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So Joe, don't listen to that part.
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But I mean, it comes around, right?
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Like I actually told him the story, like my dad's a major curmudgeon.
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He is such a grump about most things in life, but he's definitely a grump about animals.
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And my mom's dog had passed away.
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And so he came to me and he's like, I want to get your mom a dog.
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And I was like, are you sick?
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Are you drunk?
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Hi?
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What's going on right now?
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What have you been doing?
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And he was like, no, I just, I just want to get her a dog.
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And I was like, okay, like shocking thing for my dad to do, right?
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He hated the dog she had before.
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And so I was like, okay, whatever.
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So my long story short, we get a dog, but now that dog is his dog.
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Like that dog is at his feet, in his chair, sitting on his lap.
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Like it is, my mom did not get a dog.
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My dad got a dog.
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And so it's just, it's just funny to me.
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And I also joke that I'm like, you know what?
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I want that dog's parents because like he is spoiled rotten.
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They are my parents, but they do not treat him the same.
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Yeah.
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That whole thing is, tail is old as time, right?
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I've seen it so many times, like you don't like the dog or you don't want one, then
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you get it.
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And then like, you can't imagine your life without it.
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So I don't know.
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Isn't that the truth?
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Well you have different forms of pets, right?
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So we get to talk about it a little bit on the pre-show and nerd out about it.
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I'd love to dive, I mean, we'll dive into some techie stuff too, but like, let's get
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to know David and I want to hear about your pets.
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Yeah.
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So the funny thing is, so I grew up with dogs, right?
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So boxers mostly.
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And then my wife was like, well, I don't want, you know, animals that shed hair.
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Sure.
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Right.
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And I'm like, I get that, but she never said anything about shedding skin.
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So we started out with some bearded dragon.
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Well, ours, ours, well, I'd say our bearded dragon is pretty free roaming.
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So yeah, we have a bearded dragon.
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We have leopard gecko, ball python, crusted gecko.
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We just got a pacman frog for my son.
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But then I also have a toke gecko, which if anyone knows about lizards, these are like
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the ones that bark and bite.
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But like I've tamed her down where like, you know, she crawls all over, I can hold her.
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It took a while, but like, yeah, it's just, reptiles are awesome.
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I think people just assume like they're cold and, you know, just, I don't know, but they're
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they're good pets.
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Especially the dragon.
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She's awesome.
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Yes.
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Yes, I was literally just going to say that.
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Like, I agree.
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Like, and we talked about this pre-show, like I had a leopard gecko for a little bit and
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then my son had a bearded dragon.
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And like the bearded dragon was hilarious.
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Like just full of personality.
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Like would jump up on the rock.
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If you were there, like bounce back and forth.
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Like it's just really, really funny.
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And like, I could totally see how your bearded dragon would be like more of like a house pet,
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right?
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Where it's like sort of free roaming.
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He didn't have as long enough as I'd shared in the pre-show.
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We moved so he didn't have his as long as like he could have to get to the point of like
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a larger size, right?
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But we had a lot of fun when we did.
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So that's how honestly I bet one of my kids are going to want one of those pretty soon.
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We just got a hedgehog.
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I don't know, back in like October, November.
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Super freaking cute.
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We don't have any, any lizards or anything in that realm.
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So.
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Our, so I actually have a set.
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It's a ramp that goes from the tank down.
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So if I'm working from home, if she wants to get out, she'll climb down the ramp and
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you know, go around the office and then go back up.
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That is so freaking cool.
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Oh my gosh, I love it.
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Well, you should share pictures with me later.
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I would love to see that.
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Okay.
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So let's dive into like some of your career stuff, some of your tech stuff and probably
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get back to pets because you know, that's the nature of my existence.
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Yeah.
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I love animals.
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Yeah.
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I feel like I've shared this so many times, but like it's fun though.
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I don't get tired of sharing it.
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So I'm, I'm 35.
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So I'm in my mid thirties literally.
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And I started like web design and stuff.
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I don't know, six, seven ride around that range.
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Like, you know, this is back when you had like dial up and you'd go to whatever grocery
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store and it'd be like net zero, Juno, they'd have the CDs, right?
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And I remember at one point they're like, Hey, you know, if you sign up for this ISP,
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you get free web hosting.
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So when my parents signed up, it was like, what is that?
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So I'm looking at this and I just out of HTML.
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I don't even think I'd used CSS.
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It was all in line.
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And anyway, I made like this Pokedex, right?
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And I was like, okay, this is cool.
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So you know, I'd taught myself HTML, but like even though throughout high school, I know
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everyone jokes around about like, Oh, I used to do CSS on my MySpace page.
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And it's like, okay, everybody did.
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But like, I was doing these things.
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I even had classes, you know?
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And like I had teachers who knew I could do this, but no one once was ever like, Hey,
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you could build a career out of this, right?
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So I pretty much had this opportunity, by the way, like I've been doing that back then
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because the same thing happened to me.
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But like, you know, this is still the early 2000s, right?
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So like, I don't think any, not saying there weren't careers, but it was a little different.
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And you know, so like after that, when I graduated high school, you know, I played music.
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I was kind of just bouncing around jobs, right?
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Never did much of anything seriously until I met my wife.
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And then I was like, all right, I kind of need to figure this out.
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So you know, I actually, my first quote unquote professional job, I would argue was a shoe
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shiner at a barber shop, at a high end barber shop, right?
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And that's where I ended up meeting a client who I then took a job at his property management
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firm.
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I got into car sales for a few years, and then 2020 happened and that upended everything.
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Yeah.
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But that's kind of what made me reconsider.
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I'm like, maybe I should look at a different career.
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And I had a friend who was like, oh yeah, like didn't you used to do web design back
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in the day?
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You should look at getting into coding.
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I'm like, okay, so you're doing the job my teacher should have done.
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Thanks, Sean.
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Yeah.
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So I started a boot camp in 2021, started at Springboard, ended up getting a job.
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Yeah, ended up getting a job a few months and I didn't finish the boot camp.
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And then from there, it's just kind of been steamrolling since then.
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Yeah, that's awesome.
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Okay.
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So definitely non-traditional sort of path into engineering.
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I love that.
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Yeah.
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How was the boot camp?
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Obviously there was, you know,
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The boot camp is great.
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I mean, like I, even when I had started my job, like I haven't lost access to it, right?
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So if I really wanted to finish, I could.
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But like, the curriculum was great.
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It was kind of a joint partnership between Rhythm School and Colt Steel, which most people
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know who that is.
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So like the actual material is phenomenal.
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My mentor, Jack, he was such a great mentor.
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But it was really just a matter of like, I needed to get out of car sales.
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So like I leveraged some networking on LinkedIn.
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And that's where I got my first job.
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And it was just like, I didn't focus on that because my first job was in like view and
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some other stuff.
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I'm like, okay, my boot camp doesn't cover that.
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So like, am I really going to take all this time to vote to boot camp or can I just use
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that extra time and focus on my job?
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And I just never been able to go back and finish it.
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Nor do I think I would at this point.
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Yeah.
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It's kind of funny how sometimes that works, especially when you're like self taught or
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sort of trying to dive in on your own.
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Like I've had tons of courses that I've started and I've gotten through like a portion of
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them and then it's like you get pulled into actual work or an actual project.
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And then it's like, oh, I should go finish it.
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And it's like, well, but like really should I, I mean, I'm already using those skills
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in actual real life work.
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And so it's like, what can the course provide maybe that, you know, that I'm already working
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on it essentially.
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So it's always good to learn.
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But I think sometimes you just get pulled into doing the work instead.
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Yeah.
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So again, you know, I don't know how the state of bootcamp is now boot camps in general
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are in a really tough spot.
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So that's something else too.
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I was a TA and a lead instructor for a boot camp for about a year and a half.
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They're not even doing a web development course anymore.
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You know, like it's just, it's a really, I don't even think the market is as bad as
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what people are making it out to be.
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But I think it's just realizing that like you can't just go to a boot camp and expect
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a job.
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Right.
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You just get a CS degree and expect to get a job.
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That's not how it works anymore.
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And I think boot camps are wising up to being like, we're not, this isn't the moneymaker
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anymore.
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Yeah.
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I think that, you know, like, of course there's tons of potential sort of chicken and egg scenarios
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here.
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But I think like if there's any trend that I've noticed the most, it's that companies
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aren't hiring junior developers and investing in them anymore, which like maybe understandably
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with AI, but at the same time, like you need junior developers to create senior developers.
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Like you can't just, they're going to retire.
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Like developers get paid well.
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They're not going to keep working into their 60s and 70s.
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Like an average developer age of retirement is somewhere in their 50s, right?
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And sometimes even sooner, depending on the level of success they have found.
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And so I think it's interesting too, because as you start to look at sort of the, what
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I call like the caller devs, which I sort of joke about, like, I'm going to be 40 this
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year, so I'm not quite in like, I'm in there, but I'm not in there, right?
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And like, I think, you know, folks who are maybe turning 50 this year have really seen
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it all in terms of sort of the internet rise and everything in that way.
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And they're like, okay, we're sort of done, right?
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Like we're over this, like we're either doing the things we want to do, you know, building
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that business or building that life that we want, or they're sort of kind of checking
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out and it's like, what, what's going to happen?
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Like I realize that right now it seems economically hard, but there's, there's a huge gap.
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And like that gap is going to come to fruition here very soon.
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And I think it's going to be painful, especially with AI.
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AI throws a whole wrench into the whole thing of like, we don't need you in your devs, but
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then it's like, yes, but you need the devs that have not experienced one day.
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No, I honestly want to know like what I could go on about Jenae.
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I believe the, the amount of copium people ingest to be like, oh yeah, get a copilot.
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It's just absolutely amazing.
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I'm like, I can barely get anything good out of it when I'm doing this front end code.
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You know, and I'm not saying it's worthless, right?
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I think anyone with, with who's going to be honest, like I was, so I drive for Uber, every
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once in a while too.
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And I was talking to someone they're asking me about, you know, how do you feel about
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AI?
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I mean, I was like, well, the whole idea of like large language models and stuff, that's
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been around for decades, right?
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Like a lot of what we're seeing isn't necessarily new, but to your point, it's this like mass
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buy-in where I don't work for H&R Block anymore.
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So I guess I can say this, but like, I remember the day that someone in the C suite, like,
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I had acknowledged us like, hey, you know what, like we had never really considered
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Jenae.
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And then now it was like full steam ahead.
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And that's where it was by the time I left where like they actually monitor your copilot
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usage per week.
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There's metrics that you have to uphold all this stuff.
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And I'm like, it is just, you're right.
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Like people are going full steam ahead with it.
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And to the detriment, not only of not hiring juniors, which H&R Block actually does a great
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job of hiring juniors, but you're also giving juniors, you know, you're allowing them to
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open this Pandora's box.
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They're not ready to open, right?
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Like I think a senior staff level engineer, sure, you scope out all you want.
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But when you're in the beginning, you're still having to learn like you're short circuiting
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yourself.
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But again, that's completely separate conversation.
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Yeah.
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No, I mean, I agree for what it's worth.
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And it is a separate conversation technically, but at the same time, it's sort of like, it
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comes into our day to day, right?
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And like, especially like the way you're seeing it with like copilot and it being actually
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like a metric that's driving towards a productivity level type of an objective, right?
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That the team is having to uphold to you.
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That's a pretty interesting, I honestly haven't heard too much about that.
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I've heard quite a few different statements of like, you know, leadership looking to like
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improve productivity and sort of improve, you know, results and all the things.
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But I guess an actual metric against a tool is interesting to me because it's not a program
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or the developer can control.
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So I'm like, okay.
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But nonetheless, so steering in a different direction, but sort of similar direction.
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You talked about how you're in sales before you got into tech.
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And so how does that sales experience play into sort of the way that you can operate
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as an engineer?
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Yeah.
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So sales, if I learned anything from sales, which I mean, there's plenty of horrible people
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to monitor these stuff off of like Grant Cardone, Jordan Belfort, all those, you know, guys,
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but like it really is influencing, right?
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For better or for worse, you have the ability to influence people.
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And I don't mean manipulate, but I do mean influence.
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And I've realized in conversations where if you really want to make an argument for something
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or if you're wanting to steer a conversation a certain way, which you do as a developer,
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like you'll need to defend decisions you make, you may need to be like, Hey, this is out
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of scope.
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Like you have to know how to make that argument.
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And it doesn't mean that I've done it perfectly, right?
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But there's a point where when you've established that report, which always has to come first,
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you cannot make an argument without establishing a report.
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So like as a junior, it doesn't mean that your voice isn't worthwhile, but it what it
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means is you kind of have to earn your right to like, I don't say right, but like you have
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to prove yourself, right?
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Before you're just out there throwing ideas.
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But knowing how to, okay, I'm working with my lead engineer.
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I know who he is.
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I know what buttons to press, right?
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And I know how to make an argument for, Hey, you know what?
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I think maybe we don't write unit tests for this specific piece of logic because of XYZ.
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It doesn't mean that we haven't covered it elsewhere.
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It's been thoroughly tested.
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But if we try to do this, we're actually going to go out of scope and spend more hours trying
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to mock something that isn't actually needing to be tested, right?
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Cause we've used like SonarCube and it'd be like, you have 95% coverage.
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You didn't cover these lines.
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I'm like, I know I didn't cover it on purpose.
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So having to make that argument where he's like, okay, yep, you're absolutely right.
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We don't need to cover that instead of just creating the PR and then he's like, well,
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why don't you write unit tests for that?
383
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Or Hey, you know what?
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We're designing a new feature, but it's not going to work the way for a client the way
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that we think it is.
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So having to be able to go to design and product and be like, Hey, so I know you guys delivered
387
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,520
this to us, but like I have concerns about this, right?
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And knowing how to phrase these ideas and these again, arguments in a way where it doesn't
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come off as combative or whatever.
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00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:55,840
And it was the same thing in sales, right?
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Where someone would be like, well, I don't want that car.
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I want this car.
393
00:19:58,600 --> 00:19:59,600
Okay.
394
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,720
Well, I understand that Mr. Jones, but unfortunately your credit doesn't allow you to get that
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car.
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00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,640
So what we can do is we can sit down and we can explore options.
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00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,560
I mean, do you have 10 grand to put down?
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Of course they don't.
399
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:09,560
Okay.
400
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:10,560
So let's look over here.
401
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:11,560
Right.
402
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,240
So you just, it really is a transferable skill for sure.
403
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:15,840
Yeah.
404
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:16,840
Yeah.
405
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:18,320
I mean, it's just interesting too, because like you said, and we talked a little on the
406
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,560
pre-show as well, is that there's a lot that goes into that, right?
407
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,360
You have to sort of just let water kind of run off your back when you're in a sales environment.
408
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,560
Like I was in a hospitality environment.
409
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:28,680
So it's very similar, right?
410
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,880
It's like, you get customers that are like, this is wrong.
411
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I'm right.
412
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And you just have to be like, you're right.
413
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You are right.
414
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,200
I hope that you have a lovely day and just sort of move on with that, right?
415
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,080
And I think that those are skills that oftentimes like engineers don't always necessarily have.
416
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,200
It's interesting because like I, and it's not that I can necessarily tell, but like
417
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,640
especially in DevRel, right?
418
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,760
Where they're more sort of outward facing.
419
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:53,480
They're more in front of the public.
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A lot of them have similar backgrounds, whether it be in high school or whether it be early,
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you know, adult career where they're like, I was a server, I was in customer service,
422
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or I was doing something with people, you know?
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And so, and I think it really does play into some of those like super skills when you can
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actually talk to a client or talk to a product team or talk to a marketing team about something
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technical and be able to explain it.
426
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,760
But that's a superpower, you know?
427
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100%.
428
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,240
And I think to that point, you know, we're talking about like junior devs and stuff like
429
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that.
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00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,640
I think that's, you know, you look at like internships, which yes, if you're coming from
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00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:32,280
the traditional CS grad, you know, that route, it's easier to get an internship, right?
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00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:38,160
So I'm not going to say, you know, everyone has the same ability.
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00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:43,080
But I think that's kind of the conversation that needs to happen in my opinion when it
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comes to experience and entry level roles, because up until the rise of boot camps, yeah,
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an entry level role, you still need experience, but you would have had that experience in
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an internship, right?
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00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:54,880
So it made sense.
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00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,920
And if you're a CS grad and you didn't do an internship, you're shooting yourself in
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00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:00,920
the fun, right?
440
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,800
Let's be honest, like, you know, you need to do that.
441
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,560
But for the boot camp people, that's where they're like, well, I can't get an internship,
442
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:08,560
right?
443
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:09,560
I'm 42.
444
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I'm not going to get an internship at Nike.
445
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,600
So how do I get that experience?
446
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And that's where I think that conversation needs to happen.
447
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,400
And that's where I feel like it just gets all conflated, right?
448
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,680
Of entry level means entry level.
449
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,800
Well, yes, but you still need experience.
450
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You need to show that you can actually do something.
451
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:33,200
So on top of it too, I'm so sorry, I did not mean to cut you off, but I was just an
452
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,240
I'd like, but you're right though, right?
453
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,200
In that like the experiencing, I really want to double down on that.
454
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,200
And that's why I'm sorry.
455
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,000
I really interrupted you.
456
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:47,000
That's so true because because like, if there was actually someone who I just mentored recently
457
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,080
and they just shifted over into software engineering, they were still in technology, but in a different
458
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,200
form, they were not in software engineering, they were in different.
459
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:55,880
And they shifted.
460
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,520
And so as they were looking for jobs, they felt like they were like a junior again.
461
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,560
And they're like, dude, I've had 20 years of leadership experience at a big defense
462
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,520
tech company, you know, like it's a big deal.
463
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,200
But yet coming in and interviewing and feeling like you're nothing.
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And I was like, don't like, don't come in and feel like you're nothing.
465
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:15,880
You have years of actual life and leadership experience that learning how to code, that's
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easy, right?
467
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:17,880
That's a book.
468
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,640
You can pick a book up and learn anything that a book can tell you, but you can't learn
469
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:21,640
to be a good leader.
470
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:22,760
You can't learn to be empathetic.
471
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,480
You can't learn to be good at customer success.
472
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,440
You can't learn it caring about humans, you know?
473
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,400
So anyway, full of soapbox right there.
474
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,480
But yeah, so that's, that's so good.
475
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:34,880
And I don't know this person.
476
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:40,080
So obviously I'm just speaking broadly, but it's like, a the onus is on you.
477
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,960
You to prove yourself, right?
478
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,240
So if you have those 20 years of experience, like the recruiter is kind of expecting that.
479
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,400
And if you can't sell yourself and why those 20 years are transferable, again, I'm not
480
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,480
saying this person, but I've seen that right.
481
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,680
It's like, well, I've done X, Y and Z for so many years.
482
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,320
Why can't I find a job?
483
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:03,600
Well, we can blame the market or, and I know this isn't popular LinkedIn posting, but like
484
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,960
you can also take the onus on yourself.
485
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,800
And so how do you market yours?
486
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,600
And I hate the word market, but how do you make yourself more attractive?
487
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,360
It's just like dating, right?
488
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:15,120
How you know, it's a calculated risk.
489
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:20,000
How can you take this history and experience and distill it down into something that's
490
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,000
attractive?
491
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,760
But more than that, like you kind of also have to be humble and be like, you know what,
492
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,440
like I'm taking a step down potentially to start a new career.
493
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,160
So there, there's a certain, again, a certain element of self-awareness that you have to
494
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,160
have.
495
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,120
I sound like this person does, but again, I mean, you spend five minutes on LinkedIn
496
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:45,600
and you see it's like, people are struggling to find work and I am not convinced it's 100%
497
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:46,600
the market.
498
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,760
I am 50% convinced there could be some market issues, but I'm also, and I talked about this
499
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:57,320
privately and everyone agrees, people are most likely self-sabotaging themselves because
500
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,440
they don't know how to interview.
501
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:03,800
They don't know how to communicate and talk and share these ideas or these things about
502
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,680
themselves in a way where a recruiter is going to be like, again, it's a calculated risk.
503
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:09,680
It can work with you.
504
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,360
And it's like, yeah, yeah, it's a lot.
505
00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:16,880
And it's not, there's no silver bullet with any of us, right?
506
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,160
Which is why I love that you're doing the mentoring because that's what solves problems
507
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:27,520
is the one-on-one relationships, nailing down the problems, not getting newsletter.
508
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,840
There's great reasons for that, but like you can't get mentored through a newsletter.
509
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,840
You can't get mentored through a LinkedIn post.
510
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,480
It's just not going to happen.
511
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,480
Yeah.
512
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,520
I know it's kind of interesting because I don't actually do it a ton.
513
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,400
I actually do coaching and like for the most part, try to get paid for it because I am
514
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,280
self-employed as you can relate to.
515
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,040
But for whatever reason in this scenario, it was just on my heart and I was like, you
516
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:47,400
know what, like just reach out.
517
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,400
I'm going to help you.
518
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,960
And like now we're dear friends and I adore him and many people who are probably listening
519
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,080
know exactly who I'm talking about.
520
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,880
He's a rock star and he definitely deserves the role, but it was just a, you know, it's
521
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:57,880
a mind shift, right?
522
00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:58,880
The salary is different.
523
00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,880
The levels are different.
524
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,360
You're going from something where you built a huge career, have a, you know, could have
525
00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,440
anything handed to you at your company to like sort of starting over and it's just
526
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:07,440
a, it's hard.
527
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,440
Hey, Chris, I love the comment.
528
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:11,440
Sorry.
529
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,720
I just want, I was just addressing the comments.
530
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:14,720
Love the comment, Chris.
531
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,400
What you said, I'm really glad that this is helpful and insightful.
532
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,080
And I think it's just, you know, when you have those skills of being able to talk to
533
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,320
humans, like a lot of people don't have those skills.
534
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,440
So like leverage them and sort of help those, those technical people that don't have the
535
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,480
superpowers of talking to humans.
536
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,640
What do you think about AI reducing the need for juniors at a company?
537
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,600
Oh, I mean, we sort of talked about that.
538
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:41,320
Like, I mean, the thing is, is like, you need like humans, like you need humans to solve
539
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:42,320
real problems.
540
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:43,800
Like that's how I see it anyways.
541
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,920
And so I think like you said, you felt that AI was a good supplement to maybe someone
542
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,120
who had a bit more experience.
543
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:50,120
And I agree.
544
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:54,920
Like I think cursor, co-pilot, some of these other tools are like really powerful when
545
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,800
you sort of already know what you're doing, because like there was a bunch of posts I
546
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,880
was just seeing and we'll see if it's actually a reality, right?
547
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,360
Cause there's sort of this drama and like hate for AI versus like, oh my gosh, I love
548
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:06,360
it.
549
00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:09,440
But I just saw a post the other day that got a lot of engagement around like here I am
550
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,280
cleaning up bad code that my, my CTO and my leader wrote because they don't know how
551
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:15,280
to write code anymore.
552
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,600
And they got into cursor and decided to like write some code, you know, and whether or
553
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,240
not that's all factual and true, like I'm not in a day to day to have that, you know,
554
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,840
trend experience, but I think it is going to be really interesting for us to see sort
555
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,960
of the ebb and flow of like all this like heavy investment from companies and then sort
556
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,400
of like the realization of where that actually is going to land here is as we start to see
557
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:36,400
it all come to life.
558
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:37,400
So.
559
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:38,400
Yeah.
560
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,720
Have you, have you ever watched the show Person of Interest?
561
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:42,920
Know what it sounds familiar.
562
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:43,920
I don't think not that one.
563
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:44,920
Yeah.
564
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,600
It's one of the, the Nolan's made it back and I think it started in like 2011.
565
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:49,600
I'm rewatching it now.
566
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:55,400
But it deals with artificial intelligence, right, but I feel like a lot of people have
567
00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:01,280
this like baked in idea that AI will replace humans.
568
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:09,280
And what I mean by that is when I sit down and I talk to my, my UX designer, UI UX designer,
569
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,680
and we make decisions about things, about how a application should operate.
570
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,560
These are very human conversations we're having where it's not always the most long-term
571
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,560
logical decision we make.
572
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,960
Sometimes it's a, it's a gut feeling.
573
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,760
It's based off of years of experience that we've had.
574
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:27,760
Guess what?
575
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,080
You can't program that into a large language model.
576
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,160
You can't, you cannot be like, you know what?
577
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,920
There have been decisions I've made to them like I'm out of time.
578
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,880
I need to just make this decision and it ends up being fine.
579
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,440
Whereas a LLM has no concept of time.
580
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:43,440
Right.
581
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,160
So there's all these different things that you just, I don't care what anyone says.
582
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,000
You are not going to be able to program it or if you do, that's where we get into the
583
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,240
concept of technology and transhumanism.
584
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:56,920
And I'm like, I don't want to get into that.
585
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:57,920
Right.
586
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,960
Like I want to have a clear delineation between humans and technology.
587
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,880
So, you know, to that comment, what do you think about AI reducing the need?
588
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,320
I think it's misguided.
589
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:11,800
I think if to your point, if you replace, you know, if you just get a bunch of mid-level
590
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:17,000
senior engineers with AI, no juniors, then to your point, not only does everyone retire
591
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,760
but like there's so much insight and growth that you need from juniors.
592
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,960
We're like, when I was a junior, I was offering advice and perspective that my senior and
593
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,560
my lead and no one else had.
594
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:30,680
And you need that.
595
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,840
You need that diversity of opinions.
596
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,440
And if you just outsource it to AI, not only do you get garbage code half the time, but
597
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,400
you're definitely not going to have people well equipped to know how to deal with that
598
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,240
code when it's wrong because it will be wrong.
599
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:44,240
Yep.
600
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,240
That's, I used to, you know, I've gone through different phases of life, right?
601
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,880
Of like caring in different sort of missions and things as you go through your career,
602
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,640
you're sort of like invested in different spaces.
603
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,560
And for a few years, I was really heavily invested in sort of mentorship and this idea
604
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,120
of like junior devs need a chance.
605
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:00,680
Like we need to give them a chance.
606
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,160
Anyone that has software skills is not junior at this point, right?
607
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,880
Junior to me is someone who knows nothing and can do, anyways, lots of different sort
608
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,320
of sentiment and themes around it.
609
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,720
And that was, you know, always sort of my like lens with it is like if we don't invest
610
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,760
in them, we're not going to see the future that we want.
611
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,880
And by that, there is so much that they bring, right?
612
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,960
They were recently in whatever education program they're in, they're of a different age or
613
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,520
genre, they're of a different generation.
614
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,040
They've learned something new that we've probably been doing in our archaic way because that's
615
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,240
what we know, right?
616
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,600
And so they just, they completely bring in a different light.
617
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,840
And I think, I think it's interesting, like I got a couple, these are my curmudgeon things
618
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,920
that I'm like sort of comfy about lately is like the lack of junior developers and sort
619
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,960
of still continue to just not have a really good flow for that in some cases.
620
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,320
You know, the fact that like companies are actually getting rid of some education continuing
621
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,800
education stipends, I think that's trash.
622
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,520
I think that that's, that's how we get in this situation, right?
623
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,680
No junior devs, no continuing education.
624
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,400
We're building archaic code because we don't have the opportunities through our workplace
625
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:04,400
to go find new things.
626
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,000
And like, is it our responsibility to go learn new skills?
627
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,240
If it, if it's in our personal life, we do it by nature because we love to learn.
628
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,520
But it isn't technically our responsibility to stay up to date on technologies.
629
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,040
It's our employer's responsibility.
630
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,800
Like we are, we are working for them doing that job.
631
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,400
If they want us better, they should invest.
632
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,880
Then the third curmudgeon is the lack of investment from companies now in developer events, right?
633
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,240
Like they don't want to send developers and pay for them to go to conferences.
634
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,720
They don't want to sponsor and contribute to those conferences.
635
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,640
And I think it's, it's at a major disservice to our ecosystem at which like that's sort
636
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:39,880
of the foundation, right?
637
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,960
These junior devs, these, these developer events, these channels where we can learn
638
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:45,960
from each other.
639
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,520
Like this is how we operate.
640
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:48,520
We are not doctors.
641
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,720
We don't have licenses and codes and regulations and things that we get retrained every year
642
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,440
on all the new things that change, right?
643
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,480
Like we have to go figure that out.
644
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,480
So anyways, that's totally a soapbox rant, but like, yeah, it's interesting.
645
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,480
And I think it's a shame.
646
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:09,400
And I really hope that we see more investment into like, you know, general abilities and
647
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,040
developers for our future.
648
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,320
No, I mean, to your point though, like, can you imagine if a doctor had to relearn how
649
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:20,440
to use like, or if they had updates on their stethoscope every six to eight months, like
650
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:21,440
that would be crazy.
651
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:28,080
And obviously that's a very inane example, but like, but when you're in development,
652
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,000
you're like, Oh, hey, cool, we upgraded to this version of node, but then all these other
653
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,000
things broke.
654
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,560
So then I have to figure out how to get all this resolved or, Hey, you know what, create
655
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,760
react app, like what the other day, I think create react app is officially deprecated,
656
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:41,760
right?
657
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,440
So like, what's everyone going to do about that?
658
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,160
Which V, but yes, like, I think it's completely different.
659
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:54,360
So to your point, like you could be a doctor and learn things at 25 and 50 years later,
660
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,240
majority of your, your practices and your disciplines are going to be pretty established.
661
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,200
Whereas in coding, yeah, everything you knew about a certain framework could be changed
662
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,760
within a year, right?
663
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,080
Or it doesn't even support it anymore.
664
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:08,600
So then you have to go do something else.
665
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:09,600
It's crazy.
666
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:10,600
Yep.
667
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:11,600
Yeah.
668
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,280
And doctors on top of that to just add a whole another layer, like they get continuing
669
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,400
education, like it is a requirement of their job, right?
670
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,600
It's like, they cannot continue to practice medicine unless they stay up to date.
671
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,560
And it's like, we have none of that, right?
672
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,320
We have no, no sort of infrastructure for learning and we need it more than a doctor
673
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:30,320
does.
674
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:31,640
So it's, it really blows my mind.
675
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,960
Like I think, I don't know, COVID has changed so much and now I'm like getting on Chromagony
676
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:36,960
because I'm sick.
677
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,520
I'm like, yes, dang, dang all these things.
678
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:45,760
But you know, it's just, I think it's easy to sort of go back to like, you know, capitalism,
679
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,800
capitalism, capitalism and sort of like lose sight of like why you're even in business
680
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,560
to begin with and sort of what the essence is of the team.
681
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,160
And I think that can get really hard on engineers too, especially like, especially talking about
682
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,440
this, like that's our biggest imposter syndrome is like, who's telling us what's right and
683
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:01,440
wrong?
684
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:02,720
Like it's us, right?
685
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,760
It's just us and our peers being like, Hey, you shouldn't do it that way.
686
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,560
Or like, you know, that's, there's a better way to do it.
687
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,560
So absolutely.
688
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:11,560
Yeah.
689
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,560
Okay.
690
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,560
So let's see.
691
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,080
What is your preferred technical stack?
692
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:18,760
What do you like to build in?
693
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,640
Yeah, great question.
694
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:28,960
So what do I like to work in compared to what have I realized is the probably the most profitable.
695
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:34,040
So I actually fell in love with angular when I was at H&R block, I didn't like it at first.
696
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:39,200
So my first real job was in view, there's view and node and postgres.
697
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,680
And then when I came over to H&R block, it was angular C sharp.
698
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,720
That's really the main thing.
699
00:34:45,720 --> 00:34:46,720
Yeah.
700
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:48,320
And I didn't like it at first, right?
701
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:53,320
But then as I'm leaving, there's so much I get at least about modern angular that I
702
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:54,760
think makes a lot of sense.
703
00:34:54,760 --> 00:35:00,080
You don't have to deal with like use effects and all that, which one of the things, man,
704
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,720
I don't know if Ben, my staff engineer at breakthrough will listen to this, but I just
705
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:04,720
saw a PR comment.
706
00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:08,040
The other is actually this morning, where he was like, Hey, can we not have that use
707
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:09,040
effect?
708
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:10,040
Can we not have that use effect?
709
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,920
Like we do not do use effect if we do not have to.
710
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,280
It's amazing because it's so unreliable and whatnot.
711
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:22,360
But anyway, yeah, I mean, I would, I would go, you know, angular, like Mongo, that kind
712
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:28,760
of stuff, but really like, if you want to get into coding, it's, I think you're doing
713
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,240
yourself a disservice by not doing react.
714
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:33,800
And that's, that's the tech stack I'm working with right now, right?
715
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,800
Is like react node graph QL.
716
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,800
It's all for me.
717
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:38,800
I mean,
718
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:39,800
Oh, that's awesome.
719
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:40,800
Yeah.
720
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:41,800
Sorry.
721
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:42,800
Yeah.
722
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,600
Cause I mean, I know you're fine.
723
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,400
Like I barely used react before starting here.
724
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:52,320
Like my freelance work I'd done, it was mostly like next, but it was very mental.
725
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:53,320
Yeah.
726
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,160
I just, I feel like if you're going to learn front end development, like even if you don't
727
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,160
stick with it, you got to know react.
728
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,160
Right.
729
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,200
Like it's, it's so hard.
730
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,520
Even the angular jobs, like there's so like we want to experience an angular or if you
731
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,040
have experience in a react and it's like, right.
732
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,600
You're, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot.
733
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:11,600
Yeah.
734
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,000
Well, I mean, I think it's like, obviously it depends on the sort of work that you want
735
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,600
to do, but at the end of the day, like, yeah, if you have any app or any, anything, right?
736
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:20,960
It needs a front end for the most part.
737
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:21,960
I mean, yes, there are some.
738
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,320
I mean, sort of admin side only things, but yeah, it usually needs, and even that you
739
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:27,320
still need a dashboard, right?
740
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,480
So you still need some form of like a front end.
741
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,800
So it is, I think it is really helpful skills.
742
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,980
I think it's also interesting too to like sort of, and this is like me, like with my
743
00:36:35,980 --> 00:36:41,920
caller dev old, older vibe here of like the downfall of some of this is like not, not
744
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,080
always fundamentally understanding the like underlying infrastructure and anyone who listens
745
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,400
to my, listening to me talk about this, but I think that's one of the downfalls of sort
746
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,760
of like developers today that do just sort of pick up that front end stack, right?
747
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,440
It's like, you obviously have dug into like React and Angular and you're starting to understand
748
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,960
sort of the fundamental differences and like how they're orchestrated and built.
749
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,960
And I think that part is key because if you don't understand sort of why decisions are
750
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,320
made and why those frameworks operate in the way that they do, you can get really stuck
751
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,520
in like, okay, I've, I'm using all these frameworks and bringing all these tools together, but
752
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,320
I don't understand how they're fundamentally working, you know, in the, in the root.
753
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:18,320
Yeah.
754
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:24,120
Well, and that's even like, I mean, to be honest, if you ask, if I had a personal project
755
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,440
and you're like, would you rather use react, React or vanilla JavaScript?
756
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,240
I would actually probably lean towards vanilla JavaScript.
757
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:35,520
It'd take me a little bit longer, but like, I can deal with it a little bit easier.
758
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,120
Like, I can be like, no, I want this thing to happen exactly when I want it to again,
759
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,520
use effect is just absolute controlled chaos.
760
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:48,280
But to that point though, yeah, like I remember at h and r block, I was working with some
761
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,080
on that, I had largely been a backend developer, right?
762
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,200
Or no, sorry, I'm, I'm confusing anecdotes.
763
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,440
So they had really been like a QA, right?
764
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,720
And they're like, okay, so h and r block on shore pretty much got rid of QA.
765
00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:04,160
I mean, we still test, right?
766
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,960
But there's no QA engineers.
767
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,600
That's mostly their offshore.
768
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:15,480
And so she was moved over to be like an actual, like, you know, we'd consider like full stack
769
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,640
developer right back in front end.
770
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,920
But she had no point of reference for the front end.
771
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,600
So she's trying to learn Angular.
772
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:28,960
And I was like, okay, we have, we have access to you to me.
773
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,840
Here's Colt Steal's web development course, like start here.
774
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,520
You have to understand what HTML is.
775
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,240
You have to understand what CSS says.
776
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:38,320
You have to understand what JavaScript is.
777
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,440
This is not like, you know, you can dittle around, do a few things here and there, but
778
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,520
like you are not going to understand what any of this means until you have that foundation.
779
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:47,520
Right.
780
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,520
And so once you finally started doing that, started making more sense.
781
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,440
But again, yeah, if you don't understand what JavaScript is, like, it doesn't matter where
782
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,880
that you choose, view, reacts, felt, whatever, you're going to be so lost.
783
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,680
And it's not, you're not going to be using these frameworks for how they were built.
784
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,400
It isn't meant to replace anything.
785
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,040
It's just meant to do it differently.
786
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,040
Yep.
787
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,040
Yep.
788
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,040
That's true.
789
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,040
I like that.
790
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,040
Okay.
791
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,680
So I like to ask this question from everybody just to kind of get different insights.
792
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:19,280
Like how do you get unstuck if you're ever stuck or kind of facing technical challenges?
793
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:20,280
Oh, yeah.
794
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:26,360
I mean, that's a great question because it really depends on what it is, right?
795
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,320
Sometimes, sometimes they'll just switch to something else.
796
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:35,480
You know, like, you know, like, depending on what you're working on, there's probably
797
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,440
something that's going to be related, but not dependent on that.
798
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,640
So just like, I don't know what on that instead.
799
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:42,640
Right.
800
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:43,640
Yep.
801
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,840
I think that's the, the, the tried and true argument of touching some grass.
802
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:52,760
But honestly, like, I think one of my biggest things is just being like, I quit and I don't
803
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,320
mean quit permanently, but like, I'm just like, I'm done.
804
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,320
Like I cannot solve this.
805
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:59,480
I'm time boxed it.
806
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,120
I can't figure it out.
807
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:02,120
Just move on.
808
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,120
Right.
809
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,320
And those are the scenarios where I'll be lying in bed and be like, it's 1130.
810
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:07,680
Oh my gosh, I know how to solve it.
811
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,680
I'll get out and run it out and go back to bed.
812
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:17,040
Cause I'm like, it's just this element of like, you can be too close to a problem.
813
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,840
And like, if you just keep running into that wall, yeah, maybe eventually you'll break
814
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:21,840
it down.
815
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,040
You're going to have a concussion or two.
816
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:24,560
It can be pretty bruised up.
817
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:29,880
And I don't know if that's worth it, whereas you could just take a step back and just come
818
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:30,880
at it later.
819
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:37,680
I mean, I've never worked on a team where like, if I was super stuck on something, a they
820
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,840
wouldn't help me or be, they're not like, Hey, no, it has to be done right now.
821
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,280
I mean, like, yeah, go, go figure something else out.
822
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:46,280
Right.
823
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,080
Like you can come back to this.
824
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:53,080
Um, documenting God, like actually reading documentation, right?
825
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:58,240
Not just going to co-pilot, but being like, huh, I wonder if this framework actually has
826
00:40:58,240 --> 00:40:59,840
a solution to something like this.
827
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:05,800
But yes, usually just removing myself from the situation, even if it's temporarily, um,
828
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,240
I remember reading something like then a while ago and being like, how that's not a good
829
00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:10,240
approach.
830
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:11,680
Like you could just, you just never give up.
831
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,680
And I'm like, no, that's horrible.
832
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,040
I mean, it sounds like someone who doesn't have kids.
833
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:22,920
I'm like, when my daughter is screaming at me, you know, she's like, it's time for bed
834
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,240
and she wants someone to lay down with her and I say, no, and she's screaming at me and
835
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:29,760
they're like, all right, well, I'll come back in the room when you're done screaming.
836
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:35,280
And usually takes a little bit, but I'm like, do you think a screaming four year old, if
837
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,960
I just sit here and keep trying to argue with her, like that's productive?
838
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,680
No, I'm just going to walk off and be like, Hey, I love you.
839
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:43,680
I'll be back.
840
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,320
Nine times out of ten, she just stopped.
841
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:47,960
You have your little fit and your emotions.
842
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,560
I'll be back when you're saying again.
843
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:50,560
Yep.
844
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:51,560
Exactly.
845
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:52,560
I love that.
846
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:53,560
Okay.
847
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,440
Well, we are nearing the end of our time.
848
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,840
Um, so you do, I want to shed light on this, uh, just in case there's, you know, an opportunity
849
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,800
in the network, um, you do fractional software engineering, essentially, right?
850
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,480
Do you want to sort of speak to that and like maybe you're, you know, your availability
851
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,880
currently and what you possibly would be interested in diving into?
852
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:11,880
Yeah.
853
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:16,480
So I had worked with a client last year for about a year actually.
854
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:22,080
Um, and obviously we had our handful of clients too, but, um, largely it's front end development,
855
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,080
right?
856
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:24,520
So again, angular view, whatever.
857
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:33,240
Um, but largely dealing with more of a format or explain this, but like, yes, being a developer,
858
00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:36,000
but also being like refining the product.
859
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,400
And what I mean by that is I was working with the CTO pretty regularly and being like, okay,
860
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,040
so here's the product that we want.
861
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:43,040
We need to build it up.
862
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:44,040
Okay.
863
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,040
But like not just being, you know, the, the code monkey that just types everything and
864
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,440
puts it out, but being like, Hey, you know what, like this is a business requirement,
865
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,040
but I don't think it's going to work like this.
866
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,960
So let's sit down, meet up, talk about how to give the client what they're actually looking
867
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:57,960
for.
868
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:03,200
Um, because you and I had talked about this on the pre-show, like clients don't always
869
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:08,960
know what they want and being able to sit down and like hash that out and being able
870
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,720
to think critically, right?
871
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:16,520
Instead of just again, like, you know, if I could give any advice to like new developers,
872
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,520
you know, when you get a user story and they have acceptance criteria, don't be afraid
873
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,800
to be like, is this everything?
874
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:23,800
Right?
875
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:28,640
Because I guarantee whoever made this, they can't consider everything.
876
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:29,640
Right?
877
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,640
So like, don't just be like, well, here's all the acceptance criteria on paper.
878
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,600
So if I do all of this, it's the work's going to be done.
879
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,160
That's a horrible way to work on a feature.
880
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:39,160
Right?
881
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,120
So you're, you're more in like the strategy.
882
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,480
You like to be a part of sort of the strategic vision of it too.
883
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:48,120
And we're like orchestrating that, that big, that big, that bigger picture essentially.
884
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,120
Yeah.
885
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:54,720
And it's not that it's like, I have a million ideas, but I again, coming from a sales background,
886
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:58,320
you know, being able to sit down with someone and help refine that vision, right?
887
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,400
Where it's like, okay, you present this, but what about this?
888
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:02,400
What about this?
889
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:03,400
How can we prepare this down?
890
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,960
How can we not blow this out of proportion?
891
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,920
So, yeah, I mean, I'm definitely looking for clients kind of more of like an integrated
892
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,400
role where like, I'm not, I'm not that solo person, right?
893
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,240
I like working on a team, but I'm really, you know, look, I can probably do like, you
894
00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:22,040
know, 10, 20 hours a week kind of thing.
895
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:23,280
But I've had some leads.
896
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,760
The problem is, it's just a matter of, we've talked about before, just kind of like people
897
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:33,640
reevaluating what they want right now and yes, a lot of companies like, do we need juniors,
898
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:34,640
do we need seniors?
899
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,960
And that's where that fractional kind of like, Hey, let's just make sure you're not like
900
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:40,960
stalling out.
901
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:41,960
Yeah, totally.
902
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,280
So that's kind of what I'm, you know, kind of aiming for is like an established team,
903
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:51,080
but not like someone that they want fully integrated and committed, you know, years down the road,
904
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:55,520
just being like, Hey, you need help with writing some unit tests, some automated tests, getting,
905
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,280
you know, getting your front end work, you know, converted from JavaScript to TypeScript.
906
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:00,280
Sure.
907
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:01,280
Let's do it.
908
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:02,280
Yep.
909
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:03,280
Yeah.
910
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:04,280
Yeah, totally.
911
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:05,280
Okay.
912
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:06,280
I love that.
913
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:07,280
Well, and I think obviously bringing that like sales experience too, like, and again,
914
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,080
we talked about this in the pre-show, like it really, it really like gives you that superpower
915
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,880
as a developer when you can connect that bridge between sort of the non-technical conversations
916
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,520
to the, the technical specs that are required to actually make it all happen.
917
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,200
So I think that's the super beautiful superpower that you have.
918
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,720
So hopefully there's some, I mean, I'm sure you'll find lots of great clients, obviously,
919
00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:25,720
but I know what it's like, right?
920
00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:30,240
I'm in sort of that low also, you know, due to improper selling of how I was operating.
921
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:33,680
And it's just, it's, it's a really hard time with like, you know, the beginning of the
922
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:34,680
year.
923
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,080
Now folks are like, okay, new budgets, new work, we're now we're diving in.
924
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,320
But you know, end of the year stuff is always tricky.
925
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:41,840
So it is.
926
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,640
And I've noticed my, my issue is almost all my work has been proprietary.
927
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:46,640
Right.
928
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,440
So like, I don't, I've been so busy over the past few years that I just, I haven't been
929
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,600
building a lot of like side projects, right?
930
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,120
And again, I didn't finish a boot camp.
931
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,040
So I don't have that capstone.
932
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,040
So like, I'm like, Hey, if you want to go to hrblock.com and if you want someone to
933
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,720
do your taxes, I can walk you through the application and how it works.
934
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:08,120
And I can talk about all this, but like, I don't have the ability to just like show
935
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,120
that to you.
936
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:10,120
Right.
937
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,120
Yeah.
938
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,000
And same with my current job, it's, it's all like buying NDA, all this stuff, but I'm
939
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,920
like, you know, you sit me down and we can have a conversation.
940
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,120
I just can't show that.
941
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,360
And that's how all my jobs have been.
942
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:21,360
Yep.
943
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:22,800
I mean, I think that's pretty usual.
944
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,680
I feel like that kind of happens in DevRel too.
945
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,720
Like DevRel is very like a sort of all over the place type of role.
946
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:29,240
And it's like, I can tell you the story.
947
00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:30,320
I can tell you metrics.
948
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,360
I can tell you sort of results and things like that.
949
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,720
But it's like, you're not going to deeply understand the work that I was doing until,
950
00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:39,920
you know, we can have a great, beautiful conversation, sort of unveil that, that story.
951
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,920
So that's great.
952
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:42,920
Okay.
953
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,320
So where can folks find you?
954
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:49,280
Honestly, on LinkedIn, that's the only social media I use.
955
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:50,280
Love it.
956
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,760
You know, outside of that, I do have a, just a joke.
957
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,320
I have a generic portfolio site.
958
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:55,320
It's davidmarshall.dev.
959
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:56,320
Perfect.
960
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,720
Not a whole lot on there, right?
961
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:02,160
But just, yeah, LinkedIn's really about it.
962
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:07,480
Because like we were talking about earlier, I want to spend time with my family and being
963
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,640
stuck on social media all day is a great way for brain rot.
964
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:12,640
So yep.
965
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:13,640
I agree there.
966
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:14,640
All right.
967
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,440
Well, I will definitely put your LinkedIn and your website in the show notes if anyone
968
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,760
is obviously looking for an awesome engineer like David.
969
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,480
Reach out to him please.
970
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,840
And it's been lovely chatting with you.
971
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:27,000
Absolutely lovely.
972
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,000
Happy Friday.
973
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,000
Yeah, Friday.
974
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,000
Yeah, Friday.
975
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,000
All right.
976
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:32,000
Bye friends.
977
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:33,000
I will see you all.
978
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,480
I think I have a show on Monday.
979
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:35,480
Let's look.
980
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:36,480
I do have a show on Monday.
981
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:37,480
Oh, it's with Becca.
982
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:38,480
Yeah, I'm excited.
983
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:39,800
I just have like the best guests.
984
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:40,800
It's so great.
985
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:41,800
So great.
986
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:42,800
That's awesome.
987
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:43,800
I know you're one of them.
988
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,360
So thank you for being with me today and thank you everyone.
989
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,840
Also really appreciate the engagement and conversation in the chat.
990
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:49,840
It's always just nice.
991
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:50,840
Yes.
992
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:51,840
Yes.
993
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,440
Like it just really unseeds what we're thinking and feeling.
994
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:55,440
Right.
995
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:56,440
Yeah.
996
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:57,440
And it just is clarification, dude.
997
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,320
If anyone does like if you're breaking in, feel free to send me a request.
998
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,960
Just please engage with one of my posts first.
999
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,760
I get so many random requests from like no mutuals, nothing.
1000
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,760
So if you want to chat like I'm happy, I just need to know that you're a real person.
1001
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,800
I'm not the person that tried to solicit me to do their up work client facing role.
1002
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,400
The other day and I'm like, block not doing that.
1003
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:22,400
Yep.
1004
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:23,400
Yep.
1005
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:24,400
LinkedIn can be tricky.
1006
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:25,400
All right.
1007
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:26,400
Well, this is fabulous.
1008
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,480
I'll put the links in the show notes and again, have a fabulous weekend everyone.
1009
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:30,480
And thank you, David.
1010
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:31,480
So much for joining me.
1011
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:48,140
Thanks for coming or anything else, I'll do more I can do it.