The Validation Paradox: Why Reassurance Can Feel Lonely

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Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of The Virtual Couch.
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I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,
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but I am not your therapist.
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Although, to be fair, I'm a lot of therapist-therapists, so technically there's
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a chance that I might be your therapist-therapist. Everything I share here is
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for informational, educational, maybe a little bit of entertainment purpose.
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This podcast is not meant to diagnose or treat or replace professional mental health care.
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If you are struggling, please do me a huge favor and reach out to a qualified
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mental health professional in your area because that is the part that matters the most.
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And if you have never done so, you can Google low-cost mental health care in
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your area and you will find most likely, depending on how rural of an area,
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some affordable mental health care.
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Today's episode is based on a real couple, sort of. More accurately,
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it's based on a carefully blended psychological smoothie of many couples that
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I've worked with over the years. Couples that maybe I'm working with right now.
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Probably future couples who just don't know it yet. But while the concepts and
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patterns and emotions and dynamics are all absolutely real, as per usual,
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all identifying details have been changed to protect confidentiality.
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This content resonates with you. And today's episode is one I've been working on for a little while.
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It's about validation. I would love to stay connected. So you can find me on
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Instagram at virtual.couch, TikTok at virtual couch, or over on the virtual
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couch substack, which is thevirtualcouch.substack.com.
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And I love getting your stories, your questions.
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So much of what I talk about on the podcast comes directly from the real things
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that people are navigating in relationships and parenting and faith transitions
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and emotional growth and trying to figure out how to be a human,
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especially in this day and age.
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You can also reach out through my website, TonyOverbay.com. While you're there,
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sign up for the newsletter. And if you are a guy who is trying to become more
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emotionally mature, check out my men's emotional architects group.
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And also I am updating my magnetic marriage course.
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Along with courses on parenting and navigating faith deconstruction.
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You can just go to TonyOverbay.com and find that out there.
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Go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic if you want to know more about the marriage
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course itself. Now, let's get to today's show.
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And today, the fictional couple, formerly played as Jack and Jill,
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are going to be replaced today by Archie and Veronica.
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And if you are unfamiliar, Archie is a well-meaning, occasionally confused,
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emotionally avoidant redhead from a fictional town of Riverdale who somehow
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keeps stumbling into all kinds of things.
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Of course, existential crisis while still looking like he should be selling
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milkshakes in a 1950s diner.
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And Veronica is brilliant and very intense and deeply perceptive and at least
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two or three levels of differentiation or processing levels ahead of everybody
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else in the room at all times.
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So they are a perfect couple for today's episode. And I think that you'll see
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why. Let's go to the story.
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Imagine this. So Veronica comes home. It's been a brutal day at work.
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Her manager pulled her into a meeting. It was supposed to be about a project
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and it turned into a conversation about her performance and all kinds of things
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of the way that she was showing up at work and she didn't see it coming.
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So the whole drive home, she's turned it over in her head. What did she miss?
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What's the actual concern?
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More importantly in today's climate, is my job okay? So she walks in the door
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and then Archie asked, hey, how was your day?
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And she tells him and Archie who loves her. and by every available measure and
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metric is a very good guy.
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He's probably on the verge of what is known as nice guy syndrome.
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He just wants to keep the peace and say all the right things.
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And if he does all the things that he can do for Veronica, then she will love
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him and adore him and want to be with him. And they will live happily ever after.
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He's a good guy. So he says, honey, you are so good at your job.
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You're one of the best ones there.
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I would imagine your boss probably stressed about something else.
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I wouldn't even worry about it. And Veronica kind of nods and says the thanks
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and then heads upstairs.
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And she sits down on the edge of the bed, but something just feels off.
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But she tries to think it through and she says, okay, I just got reassured by
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the person who I believe knows me best.
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He said the kind of thing that you're supposed to want to hear.
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He made the right mouth noises and the facial expressions. So why does she feel
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more alone than she did in the drive home in the car? So that feeling has a name.
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It's invalidation. And the strange part is that it came wrapped inside of a compliment.
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And I believe wholeheartedly that Archie meant well.
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So that moment with Veronica is something that I think most of us have lived
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on both sides of. Somebody tells us something hard and we rush to make it better.
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We say the kind of thing that sounds like comfort and the person that we love
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walks away feeling unseen.
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And then we even turn away from that and think, what on earth is going on?
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Do they not care about me? We can make it all about ourselves when they're the one that came to us.
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Looking for something. There's an article in Psychology Today that is by a psychologist named Jamie Lusk.
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She said, most of us already recognize what negative invalidation looks like.
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Things like you're crazy. What's wrong with you? Why are you so needy?
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Can't you just chill out? Just relax? Not a big deal.
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And that kind of invalidation stings, but it's obvious.
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The harder kind is what Lusk calls positive invalidation. And it sounds like,
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hey, you're great. Why do you have to be so hard on yourself?
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It's all going to work out. It always does. You don't need to worry about I'm
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sure he didn't mean to hurt you. You did so well, don't even think about it again.
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Because you can also invalidate by agreeing with something that hurts.
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Maybe you've experienced this where the person that you are pouring your heart
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and soul out to says, I mean, you're right, you probably weren't their top choice.
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Or, you know, you're right that you can be a little bit too much.
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And that kind of agreement can look like solidarity, but it functions more like a verdict.
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Now, what ties these together is they all close the door on what the person's actually feeling.
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Now, they might do it gently. They might do it with love, but the result's the same.
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The person on the receiving end, the person who poured their heart and soul
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out, is left holding their experience alone.
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Often more confused than before because the person that they trusted just told
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them that their reality was wrong without using those exact words.
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And that's the kind of invalidation that is the hardest to name because the
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person doing it is by every visible measure being nice, looking like they really
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care. And I think that most of the time they do.
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Most of us don't know what to do with our emotions because if you kind of go
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back in the time machine, even the best of parents with the best of intentions
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told us not to worry about something.
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Hey, it's not a big deal. Just calm down.
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Don't worry about this thing that you are coming to me worried about.
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And what it actually communicates to a kid is that, hey, whatever you're worried
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about, you shouldn't need to worry about that. So your worry is actually incorrect.
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Or when you're told to calm down as a kid, what is getting transmitted to that
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little brain and nervous system is that, hey, calm down.
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Your emotions are way too much. They're not welcome here.
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They need to manage them so that a parent can feel better.
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Now, that's a good parent doing it, a loving parent, a parent doing their best
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with what they were handed, what they were modeled when they were a kid.
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And then for the people that I work with who come out of things like higher
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demand, religious environments are very strict upbringings. There's an extra layer.
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They were told to think that there is one right way to think and feel and want,
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which then naturally implies that anything outside the right way is the wrong way.
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So if they notice themselves thinking, feeling, or wanting something that didn't
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match what they'd been taught, they default to, I'm wrong.
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I'm thinking the wrong things. I feel the wrong way. And I want to do the things
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that I'm not supposed to want to do.
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So you end up with as a whole generation of adults walking around with unhealthy
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relationships with their own emotions, constantly checking, constantly wondering
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if what they feel is, is this the right thing to feel? Should I be feeling this way?
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Constantly looking for somebody else to tell them, yes, that emotion, that one's allowed.
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Yes, you are seeing your situation correctly, according to me.
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And yes, I deem that you are okay.
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Which is funny because that, okay, cool, I'm good. I said the right thing.
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But then why do I not necessarily feel better?
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Or sometimes I do for just a short amount of time.
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We get set up before we ever walk into an adult relationship to need external
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validation to know who we are.
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Kids get their whole sense of self from external validation.
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And it makes sense. It's part of the way that life works.
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But when we get older, the hope is that we can learn to find ourselves and not
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need that external validation.
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Need it. And we'll talk about that as this episode unfolds.
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So, of course, when we get in a relationship, we're going to hand that job to our partner.
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Our whole sense of self has been built on getting a signal from outside that
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says, you're reading this right. You're allowed to feel this way. You're okay.
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It makes sense that we would need our partner to also then tell us that we're going to be okay.
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So that's the setup before any kind of sciencey things around the behavior,
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nervous system, the science of validation even enters the room.
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So now, open the door and welcome in the science of validation.
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Dr. Marsha Linehan, who built a type of therapy called dialectical behavioral
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therapy, or DBT, from the ground up, defines validation as finding the kernel
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of truth in another person's perspective or situation.
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And I do enjoy that definition, because it's not about agreeing with all of
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it, because we will never understand exactly what another person's going through.
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And validation, again, finding a kernel of truth in their experience.
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It doesn't even mean that you're endorsing the behavior, but it's finding the
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part that given where they're standing and what you can only guess or assume
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they've been through does make some sense.
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And this is something I talk about a lot when I'm working with couples or talking
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about my four pillars of a connected conversation.
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Pillar one, well, there's a pre-pillar separating observation from judgment.
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I'm observing that my partner walked by me and didn't say anything.
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Then the judgment is they don't care about me. You have to learn to separate
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the observation from the judgment. I'm observing that they walk by me, didn't say anything.
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And my judgment is that they don't care about me.
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Separate them because that can get me into pillar one, which is now I'm going
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to assume good intent that they're not doing it to hurt me.
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But there's also a part B to pillar one, which is, or there's a reason why that
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person's saying you're doing the things they're doing.
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Because a lot of that, it could be rooted in emotional immaturity that they
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may feel, even though that they are an adult walking around in adult clothes,
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driving cars and having jobs and things like that, that that's still the way
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that they need to communicate their message.
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I need to show you that I'm angry with you rather than talking about it.
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But then we get to pillar two and pillar two sits where we're talking about with this episode.
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It's, it's accepting their perspective that you can't tell somebody that their
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experience is wrong or that you disagree with the way that they are reading a situation.
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Big dramatic pause, even if you genuinely think that they are interpreting it
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in a way that is not serving them, or in a way that you are acknowledging that
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you don't believe that you would handle that.
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In other words, you can't tell somebody that they're wrong, even if you think
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they are, because that's their perspective. That's their interpretation of events.
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And I think when you really slow things down that way, the reason is pretty
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straightforward, because you truly do not know what it feels like to be them.
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You weren't there for the version of the day that they've had.
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You weren't standing inside their
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body, feeling their nervous system when their manager said the thing.
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And you don't have access to the 27 other moments from their week that were
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stacking on top of this one that was downstream that led up to how they felt
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right now, which is exactly why then pillar three follows naturally.
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Questions before comments. Hey, tell me more about that.
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How long you've been feeling that way? What's the hardest part about what you
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just experienced? Those questions, they're an acknowledgement that you're standing
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on the outside of an experience that belongs to someone else.
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And you care about that person. And the only way to really build and grow in
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this relationship is to ask, to genuinely, curiously ask about their experience.
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I think most of us don't think about it this way, but if a friend tells you
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that they're nervous about, let's say, teaching a Sunday school lesson and you
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say, hey, don't worry about it. You'll be fine.
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It's invalidation. You're telling them, hey, where you're feeling,
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not correct. It's not accurate.
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And you probably meant it as encouragement, but they hear on some level that
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what they're feeling isn't the right thing to feel. Once you see it in something
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that small, you start to see it in a lot of different places.
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And the research backs it up. In 2019, a team led by a researcher named Ko ran
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a study with mothers of adolescents who were self-injuring.
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And they taught the moms in a single session how to interpersonally validate.
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Then they put the mothers and teens in a conflict discussion and measured what
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happened. And the mothers who have been trained in validation showed a lower
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physiological arousal and less emotional distress during the fight.
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And that actually led to the teens also having lower emotional distress.
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One session, high stakes relationship, but you can see measurable change in the body.
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Now, Lusk also points out the research showing that validation makes change more likely, not less.
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And most of us, I think, were taught the opposite. Most of us were taught that
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if you let somebody's feelings be valid, they'll dig in, they'll move the goalposts,
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that you are allowing it, that it will just continue to get worse.
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But the research actually shows that they soften.
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And this isn't just a couple's problem or a parent-child problem.
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Research from Barthal and Halpern shows that when entire groups invalidate each other's views.
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When one side dismisses the other's reality is not just wrong,
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but despicable, illegitimate polarization happens and it deepens.
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Each side digs their heels in and the gap widens and reconciliation gets a lot harder.
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I think a lot of what we're watching unfold even in the country right now is
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a macro version of what happens in somebody's living room.
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It comes out of emotional immaturity, that right, wrong, black,
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white frame, where if you have a different opinion than I do,
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that it doesn't mean that we see things differently. It means you think you're
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right and I'm wrong, which now means I have to attack your position and defend mine.
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So there's no room left for curiosity. There's no room for two people to hold
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genuinely different views and now stay connected or stay in a conversation.
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So what gets lost, I think, at the national level is the same thing that gets
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lost in Veronica and Archie's living room.
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Kernel of truth or trying to understand what that other person's perspective
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is with the acknowledgement that I don't know what it feels like to be them.
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The possibility that somebody that you disagree with might be standing on something
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real given where they came from and what they've lived through.
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You can find that kernel without endorsing their conclusions.
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You can find it without changing your own.
00:14:43.848 --> 00:14:46.928
And the fix runs in the same direction, I think, on most every scale.
00:14:47.088 --> 00:14:49.468
And so, this is the part that sounds like the whole story.
00:14:49.968 --> 00:14:52.948
Validation, good. Practice it. End of episode.
00:14:53.148 --> 00:14:56.528
Except a man named Dr. David Schnarch spent his career looking at long-term
00:14:56.528 --> 00:14:59.668
couples and he would walk into the scene with Veronica and Archie and ask a
00:14:59.668 --> 00:15:00.848
completely different question.
00:15:01.008 --> 00:15:03.708
I think he wouldn't ask whether Archie validated her well.
00:15:03.888 --> 00:15:09.528
He would ask why Veronica actually needs Archie's validation to settle herself in the first place.
00:15:10.148 --> 00:15:15.488
And it's Schnarch's work on differentiation that has become a lot of the backbone
00:15:15.488 --> 00:15:17.508
of how I think about long-term relationships now.
00:15:18.348 --> 00:15:21.388
Differentiation, as he defines it, is the ability to hold onto yourself when
00:15:21.388 --> 00:15:26.268
the people closest to you are pressuring you intentionally or not to be something else.
00:15:27.056 --> 00:15:31.796
And it's the ability to stay you while staying connected to another person,
00:15:32.056 --> 00:15:33.056
especially those who you care about.
00:15:33.496 --> 00:15:36.796
And one of his core moves is to distinguish two kinds of intimacy.
00:15:37.216 --> 00:15:41.156
The first he calls other validated intimacy. And it's that expectation that
00:15:41.156 --> 00:15:42.596
your partner will approve of
00:15:42.596 --> 00:15:46.776
you, agree with you, reflect you back in the shape that you want to see.
00:15:47.076 --> 00:15:50.356
You think that you are a version, a certain version of a human,
00:15:50.356 --> 00:15:54.176
and you are wanting that person to agree with the version that you think you
00:15:54.176 --> 00:15:57.976
are. But what is so fascinating to see is that you're saying,
00:15:58.096 --> 00:16:01.376
hey, you know me, validate this version of me that I think that I am.
00:16:01.816 --> 00:16:06.996
But if you've been with somebody long enough, they're naturally going to think
00:16:06.996 --> 00:16:11.176
of examples of things that don't line up with what you're saying.
00:16:11.476 --> 00:16:16.836
If you say, and I've had this recently in session, when somebody says to their
00:16:16.836 --> 00:16:18.656
spouse, you know me, I'm honest.
00:16:18.956 --> 00:16:22.096
And then I stop right there and I say to the spouse, the partner,
00:16:22.336 --> 00:16:23.796
what are you thinking about right now?
00:16:24.476 --> 00:16:27.776
And in this situation, the guy just said, nothing. And I said,
00:16:27.836 --> 00:16:29.516
oh, no, my friend, I know this game.
00:16:29.616 --> 00:16:34.016
And, but essentially he said, I'm thinking about the times where she hasn't been very honest.
00:16:34.576 --> 00:16:38.476
And she took offense and I had to normalize that because that's part of the
00:16:38.476 --> 00:16:40.076
fascinating thing about how relationships work.
00:16:40.176 --> 00:16:42.656
And I think when you break it down at that simple of a level,
00:16:42.716 --> 00:16:45.916
and you can look at that with curiosity, not judgment, not shame.
00:16:47.032 --> 00:16:50.832
I want this person to think that I'm always honest, but immediately I'm with
00:16:50.832 --> 00:16:54.572
this person that has experienced enough life with me that they're immediately
00:16:54.572 --> 00:16:56.092
thinking of these times where I'm not.
00:16:56.592 --> 00:17:01.452
And that's why I love saying to a couple that we're going to learn how to communicate.
00:17:01.452 --> 00:17:04.132
We're going to learn how to say, this is my experience. This is your experience.
00:17:04.592 --> 00:17:07.872
We're going to learn how to stay in a conversation. We're going to learn how
00:17:07.872 --> 00:17:11.172
to use I statements and be genuinely curious. What do you think instead of,
00:17:11.332 --> 00:17:12.412
I think you feel this way.
00:17:12.792 --> 00:17:18.212
And what you often find is that the person I think I am is fairly based in truth.
00:17:18.492 --> 00:17:21.952
Hey, I'm always honest, except for those times I'm not, but then I have a good reason why I'm not.
00:17:22.432 --> 00:17:25.912
Or you know me, I'm always a fun time, except for, yeah, you could probably
00:17:25.912 --> 00:17:29.172
point out the times where I haven't been a very fun time, but there are reasons
00:17:29.172 --> 00:17:31.472
why. And what if all those things are true?
00:17:31.772 --> 00:17:34.772
But we want this person to see who we are.
00:17:34.932 --> 00:17:38.492
We want them to validate that we are the certain type of person.
00:17:38.492 --> 00:17:43.172
We want them again to reflect you back in the shape that you want to see.
00:17:43.962 --> 00:17:48.682
To comfort you when you're shaky. And it sounds like the goal of a relationship,
00:17:49.342 --> 00:17:51.582
but Schnarch will argue it's more of a trap.
00:17:51.842 --> 00:17:56.042
Because the moment that your sense of self depends on somebody else delivering
00:17:56.042 --> 00:18:00.522
it to you, you've essentially handed them a steering wheel that was never theirs to hold.
00:18:00.842 --> 00:18:04.582
Now they have so much power over how you feel about yourself.
00:18:04.922 --> 00:18:09.762
So that was other validated intimacy. And then he also talks about self-validated intimacy. see.
00:18:09.962 --> 00:18:14.462
This was a little trickier because it's letting yourself be known without needing
00:18:14.462 --> 00:18:15.962
your partner to accept what they see.
00:18:16.102 --> 00:18:21.322
And this is the scary part because our brains are still so wired into this all
00:18:21.322 --> 00:18:23.222
or nothing, black or white, emotionally immature.
00:18:23.702 --> 00:18:27.542
If I say this thing and they don't like it, then they will leave me.
00:18:27.662 --> 00:18:28.902
That's an all or nothing statement.
00:18:29.422 --> 00:18:33.022
It's saying the true thing and then handling whatever comes back,
00:18:33.222 --> 00:18:39.562
which could be silence, disagreement, criticism, and without it dismantling who you are.
00:18:39.962 --> 00:18:44.242
And David Schnarch is pretty blunt about this. He says that empathy and acceptance
00:18:44.242 --> 00:18:47.662
when they're coming out of fusion in a relationship are never free.
00:18:47.842 --> 00:18:49.582
There's always a bill. There's a cost.
00:18:49.922 --> 00:18:54.542
I'll only do for you if you do for me. And that's not love. That's a transaction.
00:18:55.082 --> 00:18:58.722
And that transactional model assumes a particular thing about people.
00:18:58.982 --> 00:19:04.022
It assumes that you and I are two separate fixed things doing business together.
00:19:04.502 --> 00:19:08.102
Myself over here, yourself over there, trading empathy for empathy.
00:19:08.422 --> 00:19:11.402
There's an amazing Buddhist concept, I think, worth bringing in here that kind
00:19:11.402 --> 00:19:12.402
of pokes at that assumption.
00:19:12.862 --> 00:19:17.582
It's called anatta or sometimes translated as the non-self or no-self.
00:19:17.742 --> 00:19:22.242
And before anybody tunes out at the word, I am not hovering above the floor
00:19:22.242 --> 00:19:24.702
because it doesn't mean that you don't exist.
00:19:24.882 --> 00:19:29.762
You obviously exist, but boy, sometimes my YouTube rabbit hole would convince me otherwise.
00:19:30.747 --> 00:19:33.287
I believe you currently exist and you are listening to this.
00:19:33.427 --> 00:19:35.707
What it means is that you're not what you always think you are.
00:19:35.807 --> 00:19:40.007
There's no fixed permanent essence sitting inside of you that is the quote real you.
00:19:40.687 --> 00:19:43.627
Things exist because of and in relationship to other things.
00:19:43.807 --> 00:19:46.407
And my favorite phrase with this is nothing stands alone.
00:19:47.047 --> 00:19:49.587
I've heard this taught with this helicopter image, which I love.
00:19:49.647 --> 00:19:52.787
When you're flying a helicopter, you don't lock the controls into place and coast.
00:19:52.987 --> 00:19:56.167
You're using all four limbs the entire time. You're adjusting the throttle,
00:19:56.347 --> 00:19:58.907
you're adjusting the pitch, you're adjusting direction every second.
00:19:59.467 --> 00:20:02.847
So, this Buddhist teaching of non-self sees a person the same way.
00:20:02.967 --> 00:20:07.267
You're not a static thing being who you are. You are a continual adjustment.
00:20:07.927 --> 00:20:11.387
Are you more you when you're hungry or when you've just eaten?
00:20:11.647 --> 00:20:14.807
Maybe when you're rested or when you've been up for three nights working a project?
00:20:14.947 --> 00:20:18.587
Are you more you in the loving home you grew up in or the moment that a hard
00:20:18.587 --> 00:20:19.627
thing happened to you as a kid?
00:20:20.207 --> 00:20:22.947
The answer here is that there is no fix to you.
00:20:23.007 --> 00:20:28.547
There's only a complex web of these impermanent causes and conditions that if
00:20:28.547 --> 00:20:32.827
you are going to do a thing, then there's an acceptance that someone is going
00:20:32.827 --> 00:20:34.327
to react a certain way to that thing.
00:20:34.507 --> 00:20:37.847
If I'm so worried about how they might react that I don't do a thing,
00:20:38.307 --> 00:20:43.467
then I'm going to feel stuck and I am not going to figure out who I am.
00:20:43.707 --> 00:20:47.407
So what this means is that Veronica coming home shaky is not Veronica being
00:20:47.407 --> 00:20:50.627
a defective Veronica. She's a person responding to a meeting,
00:20:50.887 --> 00:20:53.907
a drive home, and 18 other moments piled on top.
00:20:54.307 --> 00:20:58.907
Same with Archie. Now, he is rushing to fix her mood. That's not Archie being broken, Archie.
00:20:59.107 --> 00:21:04.167
His nervous system, his learning history, his own causes and conditions, those are all at play.
00:21:04.507 --> 00:21:08.327
So, this maybe sounds like it would contradict Schnarch's whole thing about
00:21:08.327 --> 00:21:10.487
differentiation, but it doesn't. It really deepens it.
00:21:11.227 --> 00:21:14.387
Differentiation was never about being independent. Nobody is independent.
00:21:14.987 --> 00:21:18.447
What Shnarsh is saying and what this Buddhist piece are saying are really these
00:21:18.447 --> 00:21:22.067
related things from different angles, that you exist in a web of relationships.
00:21:22.347 --> 00:21:27.667
It's interdependent. Nothing stands alone. When I do a thing, my partner will react.
00:21:28.425 --> 00:21:33.305
And that your sense of who you are can't be borrowed from one node of the web
00:21:33.305 --> 00:21:36.145
every time you feel uncertain. The web is real.
00:21:36.365 --> 00:21:38.145
So is your distinct presence in
00:21:38.145 --> 00:21:41.805
it. That's what makes this trap of other validated intimacy so specific.
00:21:42.245 --> 00:21:45.245
It isn't bad because connection with another person's bad.
00:21:45.385 --> 00:21:49.725
It can be a challenge because it treats the self as this fixed object that has
00:21:49.725 --> 00:21:51.425
to be confirmed by another fixed object.
00:21:51.565 --> 00:21:55.025
You know me. If you don't validate this version that I think I am,
00:21:55.305 --> 00:21:59.545
then all of a sudden, then you don't care about me and nobody likes me versus
00:21:59.545 --> 00:22:03.505
what if there's no fixed object? There's a continual adjustment.
00:22:03.685 --> 00:22:06.685
It's the first time that you've been you in that moment with those 18 things
00:22:06.685 --> 00:22:09.485
that led to that day and you went to work and your boss said the thing.
00:22:09.885 --> 00:22:14.025
And there's truth in the fact that maybe your boss was going through a lot and you don't know that.
00:22:14.465 --> 00:22:18.805
So, is he diffusing his anger, his discomfort onto you? You're in a particular
00:22:18.805 --> 00:22:22.185
way that day that you can't just go, huh, okay.
00:22:22.645 --> 00:22:25.605
Now, oh my gosh, am I going to lose my job or what's wrong with me?
00:22:25.605 --> 00:22:26.745
Or what are the things that I miss?
00:22:27.005 --> 00:22:30.385
Now you bring that energy home and you got Archie who was just sitting around
00:22:30.385 --> 00:22:32.565
being Archie and now he feels that.
00:22:32.765 --> 00:22:35.445
And when you walk in the door and now he's reacting to you.
00:22:35.925 --> 00:22:40.445
There's continual adjustment in you and your partner and in the relationship.
00:22:40.705 --> 00:22:43.345
So, the tension on the table, I think, is this.
00:22:43.665 --> 00:22:50.065
And Lusk's research says validation calms the body, it builds trust, and it opens change.
00:22:50.945 --> 00:22:54.705
Schnarch says depending on validation from your partner is one of the things
00:22:54.705 --> 00:22:56.785
that keeps long-term couples stuck.
00:22:57.205 --> 00:23:01.465
Both are right. So when Veronica comes home upset, something happened inside
00:23:01.465 --> 00:23:05.085
of Archie that he probably wasn't even aware of. He definitely wasn't prepared for it.
00:23:05.465 --> 00:23:10.825
Her distress didn't just land in his ear holes. He felt it in his body.
00:23:11.305 --> 00:23:15.765
So Schnarch would say that their nervous systems were doing what fused nervous systems do.
00:23:16.650 --> 00:23:21.370
The anxiety was actually flowing between them. And then Archie's emotional balance
00:23:21.370 --> 00:23:23.610
got knocked off the second hers did.
00:23:24.010 --> 00:23:27.670
There's a lot of research on this concept called co-regulation.
00:23:28.030 --> 00:23:31.830
And it's actually really solid for a psychology topic.
00:23:32.470 --> 00:23:35.550
Psychology, you often hear, is more of a soft science, not the medical model.
00:23:35.670 --> 00:23:38.270
You don't just put a cast on a broken bone and you fix it.
00:23:38.470 --> 00:23:40.970
Again, soft science. There's so many variables at play.
00:23:42.730 --> 00:23:45.930
The most well-known study comes from james cone and his
00:23:45.930 --> 00:23:49.650
colleagues at the university of virginia was published back in 2006 and
00:23:49.650 --> 00:23:53.250
as someone that has a challenge not
00:23:53.250 --> 00:23:57.090
going with jokes constantly i just want you to know i almost want to bell the
00:23:57.090 --> 00:24:01.430
dean every time i think of a joke about what i want to say as i lay out the
00:24:01.430 --> 00:24:05.890
dynamics of this study but i'm not going to but they put married women and a
00:24:05.890 --> 00:24:09.790
fmri scanner so that's where you're you're putting some good old dye in the
00:24:09.790 --> 00:24:12.030
brain and you're watching things happen in real time.
00:24:12.070 --> 00:24:16.230
So they put married women in an fMRI scanner under the threat of mild electric
00:24:16.230 --> 00:24:19.630
shocks, and then watch what happened in their brains under three conditions,
00:24:19.810 --> 00:24:24.350
alone, holding the hand of a stranger, or holding their husband's hand.
00:24:24.510 --> 00:24:28.310
Now, you can see they're starting certain jokes, but hold those to the side.
00:24:28.530 --> 00:24:32.170
When the women were holding their husband's hand, the threat-related activity
00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:36.550
in their brains went down, not metaphorically, but measurably.
00:24:36.910 --> 00:24:44.470
And then in the name of being authentic, I have one mosquito that has been in the office all morning.
00:24:45.010 --> 00:24:48.670
And there have been many pauses when he flies right in front of my face and
00:24:48.670 --> 00:24:51.930
I try to gently grab him so I can escort him outside.
00:24:52.984 --> 00:24:56.824
If you know what I mean. But the better the marriage, the bigger the effect.
00:24:57.264 --> 00:25:00.684
And then follow-up studies have shown the same basic thing in other ways.
00:25:00.844 --> 00:25:03.224
Intimate partners' nervous systems synchronize.
00:25:03.484 --> 00:25:06.824
Heart rates start to converge during emotional conversations.
00:25:07.344 --> 00:25:11.944
Skin conductance, the same thing that a polygraph measures, rises and falls together.
00:25:12.604 --> 00:25:17.144
Cortisol, the stress hormone, can be measured running in parallel between couples
00:25:17.144 --> 00:25:19.944
in a way that does not happen between strangers.
00:25:20.304 --> 00:25:23.684
Oxytocin, the cuddle hormone, starts to run free.
00:25:23.884 --> 00:25:26.844
And then other researchers put people in a room watching their romantic partner
00:25:26.844 --> 00:25:31.964
go through a stressful task through a one-way mirror, and that observer's cortisol
00:25:31.964 --> 00:25:33.444
climbs alongside their partners.
00:25:34.024 --> 00:25:36.504
And again, if this was the Waking Up the Narcissism podcast,
00:25:37.004 --> 00:25:40.704
maybe they would have some situations where then the partner would,
00:25:40.904 --> 00:25:44.324
their happy chemicals would rise, but that's a whole different podcast.
00:25:44.624 --> 00:25:48.964
But when Veronica walked in the door upset, Archie's body was reading her body
00:25:48.964 --> 00:25:52.384
before any conscious thought caught up. I think that's one of the key points here.
00:25:52.704 --> 00:25:56.104
His system started shifting the direction that hers had shifted.
00:25:56.304 --> 00:26:00.284
The pull toward reassurance was at least partly biological.
00:26:00.544 --> 00:26:04.364
It was happening without him even knowing. Get her settled because if he can
00:26:04.364 --> 00:26:07.304
get her settled down, his nervous system settles down.
00:26:07.664 --> 00:26:12.024
Which means when Archie said, you are so good at your job, I wouldn't worry about it.
00:26:12.244 --> 00:26:16.324
He wasn't actually answering what Veronica said. He was managing his own discomfort
00:26:16.324 --> 00:26:17.504
with her being uncomfortable.
00:26:17.944 --> 00:26:20.564
So the reassurance wasn't for her, it was for him.
00:26:21.422 --> 00:26:24.402
And I think this one can be a hard one to sit with because I think most of us,
00:26:24.622 --> 00:26:26.642
when we do this, genuinely believe we're being loving.
00:26:27.142 --> 00:26:30.982
Another version of this is when somebody tells you a really horrific or difficult
00:26:30.982 --> 00:26:33.222
thing and you answer with, man, I'm so sorry.
00:26:33.642 --> 00:26:36.722
And that's it. Because then the person telling you the story,
00:26:36.722 --> 00:26:42.922
it's as if now they're required to then say, it's okay, I'm sure I'll be fine, or thank you.
00:26:42.922 --> 00:26:46.482
When you see it that way, then when somebody is saying, I'm sorry,
00:26:46.702 --> 00:26:51.202
it becomes pretty clear that it is more of a them thing.
00:26:51.382 --> 00:26:54.422
They said the thing, hey, I am so sorry. I want you to know I'm sorry.
00:26:54.862 --> 00:26:59.162
So, but keep going and I'll tell you I'm sorry again. And I'll even maybe even
00:26:59.162 --> 00:27:00.662
say, let me know what I can do to help.
00:27:01.202 --> 00:27:03.982
So, I said all the stuff, right? Check. Can I take off now?
00:27:04.682 --> 00:27:06.062
Again, believing though that
00:27:06.062 --> 00:27:10.542
we're being loving and I believe that that is a, it is a kind thing to do.
00:27:11.222 --> 00:27:14.922
So, we're not lying to ourselves on purpose. We just, we have this system,
00:27:15.142 --> 00:27:19.302
one that we now know is measurable in the body that registers a loved one's
00:27:19.302 --> 00:27:23.402
pain as our pain and then dispatches comfort because that's what gets the temperature
00:27:23.402 --> 00:27:26.322
down for us. It gets the temperature down for us.
00:27:27.002 --> 00:27:29.902
Schnarch has a phrase for the system underneath it. He calls it emotional fusion,
00:27:30.462 --> 00:27:32.102
togetherness without separateness.
00:27:32.362 --> 00:27:36.882
It's this persistent emotional link where every move that one person makes will
00:27:36.882 --> 00:27:40.362
impact, or he says, upsets the other's balance.
00:27:40.542 --> 00:27:45.042
And then the only way to feel okay again is to get the other person to feel okay first.
00:27:45.462 --> 00:27:49.982
And fusion, I need you to feel better and I need you to feel better so I can
00:27:49.982 --> 00:27:53.562
feel better are the same sentence. You just can't tell that from the inside.
00:27:54.370 --> 00:27:56.550
And I think this is the part where a lot of us, if we're honest,
00:27:56.670 --> 00:27:58.190
find ourselves on the giving end.
00:27:58.330 --> 00:28:02.610
The friend who can't let your bad day be bad, the parent who needs you to be
00:28:02.610 --> 00:28:06.470
okay so they can sleep tonight, or the partner who keeps reassuring you while
00:28:06.470 --> 00:28:10.690
you're trying to tell them something difficult, and then us doing it back to them.
00:28:11.250 --> 00:28:15.750
Now, I want to do a quick tangent here because this co-regulation piece is so
00:28:15.750 --> 00:28:18.450
fascinating, and it opens up something that I've been chewing on as a couples
00:28:18.450 --> 00:28:22.470
therapist for a little while since I've been currently obsessed about co-regulation.
00:28:23.030 --> 00:28:26.970
So this, the biology that I just described, a partner's nervous system synchronizing,
00:28:27.110 --> 00:28:30.650
it usually shows up in therapy in, I would say, a hopeful way.
00:28:30.810 --> 00:28:32.970
One partner starts doing the work, they get a little more grounded,
00:28:33.330 --> 00:28:35.890
a little less reactive, a little more able to stay with their own experience
00:28:35.890 --> 00:28:37.330
without needing the other person to fix it.
00:28:37.810 --> 00:28:41.590
And the other partner will push back a little bit at first, but then often within
00:28:41.590 --> 00:28:43.890
weeks or months starts to settle too.
00:28:44.110 --> 00:28:48.310
And they come into alignment or coherence, not because they got drug into therapy,
00:28:48.470 --> 00:28:51.830
but because the system around them shifted and their nervous system had something
00:28:51.830 --> 00:28:53.770
different to basically attune to.
00:28:54.310 --> 00:28:57.630
That's the version that makes co-regulation sound like a beautiful love story.
00:28:57.770 --> 00:29:02.090
But the version I see a lot less written about is different,
00:29:02.090 --> 00:29:05.430
where one partner does that same part, the work.
00:29:05.570 --> 00:29:08.150
They get grounded, they get present, they become non-reactive,
00:29:08.170 --> 00:29:11.750
and the other partner gets more dysregulated.
00:29:11.950 --> 00:29:16.150
And at first, the other partner is typically going to get dysregulated regardless.
00:29:16.390 --> 00:29:20.170
I call it testing for safety because they've seen their partner say things before,
00:29:20.330 --> 00:29:23.230
I'm going to change, I'm going to do this different, but they can't trust it.
00:29:23.470 --> 00:29:28.350
The person is testing for safety, but then over time, when one person calms
00:29:28.350 --> 00:29:32.090
and comes into coherence, but the other person in another situation,
00:29:32.090 --> 00:29:34.710
they become even more and more dysregulated, not less.
00:29:35.130 --> 00:29:37.270
Sometimes the point of blowing up the whole relationship.
00:29:38.004 --> 00:29:41.544
And I've just been noting that for quite a while. So I started a conversation
00:29:41.544 --> 00:29:45.424
with somebody who works in the field of epigenetics that I just absolutely love
00:29:45.424 --> 00:29:46.724
and I've known for a very long time.
00:29:47.144 --> 00:29:50.224
We'll call him Jack. We'll bring back Jack here. No Jill, but Jack.
00:29:50.484 --> 00:29:53.844
What follows, I'm going to share some notes with you. Full transparency,
00:29:54.264 --> 00:29:58.104
two people tossing ideas around, not running a study. We were not landing on conclusions.
00:29:58.364 --> 00:30:02.324
We were two curious humans wondering if there's something here. So take it as that.
00:30:02.724 --> 00:30:05.364
So the first concept that Jack brought in was from the world of physics,
00:30:05.504 --> 00:30:08.944
which I know little to nothing about. And he talked about energy landscapes.
00:30:09.104 --> 00:30:13.164
And it's this idea that systems in physics and in chemistry tend to settle into
00:30:13.164 --> 00:30:15.604
states that take the least energy to maintain.
00:30:15.804 --> 00:30:18.564
And this makes sense to me because I know that this is why we form habits.
00:30:18.704 --> 00:30:22.664
We do things repetitively and then the brain eventually habitualizes it because
00:30:22.664 --> 00:30:25.044
it takes less electrical activity of the brain.
00:30:25.484 --> 00:30:29.064
And in the world of the brain is a don't get killed device. The brain is operating
00:30:29.064 --> 00:30:34.044
from this incorrect assumption that it has a finite amount of electrical activity.
00:30:34.044 --> 00:30:37.224
So, it's trying to habitualize everything, thoughts, activities, you name it.
00:30:37.664 --> 00:30:40.964
But when you get back to these concepts of energy landscapes,
00:30:41.464 --> 00:30:45.544
Jack said, picture a ball rolling across a series of hills and valleys.
00:30:45.784 --> 00:30:49.964
The ball never will stop on a hillside. It rolls until it finds a valley,
00:30:50.124 --> 00:30:52.024
a low point where it can rest without effort.
00:30:52.544 --> 00:30:56.164
And what he was suggesting was that people might have something like emotional
00:30:56.164 --> 00:30:59.884
energy landscapes, that we settle into patterns that feel stable,
00:31:00.044 --> 00:31:05.124
even if those patterns are unhealthy, because stable takes less energy than change.
00:31:05.264 --> 00:31:08.344
So, when two people enter a relationship, their individual landscapes combine,
00:31:08.504 --> 00:31:10.684
and now they make a new shared landscape together.
00:31:10.824 --> 00:31:14.384
And that shared landscape has its own valleys, its own low energy stable states.
00:31:14.644 --> 00:31:17.844
And that's where a relationship tends to come to rest.
00:31:18.024 --> 00:31:22.664
A couple can be settled in a valley that's healthy or settled in a valley that's
00:31:22.664 --> 00:31:24.144
painful, but it's stable.
00:31:24.564 --> 00:31:28.644
You both feel normal once you're in them because stable is stable.
00:31:29.224 --> 00:31:35.164
It becomes the familiar. I think of it often as a couple can actually co-regulate in chaos.
00:31:36.708 --> 00:31:40.228
Because change then, by definition, would require going back up a hill,
00:31:40.348 --> 00:31:44.308
which is going to take work, which means when one partner starts doing the work,
00:31:44.468 --> 00:31:46.828
it becomes more grounded. They're not just changing themselves,
00:31:46.848 --> 00:31:50.788
but they're essentially trying to change the shape of this shared landscape.
00:31:51.208 --> 00:31:55.028
The old valley that everybody has been resting in starts to flatten out,
00:31:55.048 --> 00:31:56.968
and the system has to find a new equilibrium.
00:31:57.808 --> 00:32:01.128
Sometimes the system finds a healthier valley. That's the love story.
00:32:01.808 --> 00:32:05.748
Other times, the partner who isn't necessarily doing the work can't tolerate
00:32:05.748 --> 00:32:08.028
the climb out of that familiar valley.
00:32:08.248 --> 00:32:11.628
Their system, for reasons that may go all the way down into their biology,
00:32:11.908 --> 00:32:14.768
early adversity, childhood trauma, neural wiring,
00:32:15.268 --> 00:32:18.228
autonomic patterning that got laid down before they had words,
00:32:18.368 --> 00:32:23.228
those deeply rutted neuropathways, it registers the destabilization of getting
00:32:23.228 --> 00:32:26.348
out of this familiar dynamic, this familiar dance,
00:32:26.608 --> 00:32:30.168
this familiar pattern as a threat, not as an invitation to, hey,
00:32:30.248 --> 00:32:31.108
let's go find something better.
00:32:31.488 --> 00:32:34.748
So, they push back, sometimes by leaving, sometimes by escalating,
00:32:35.008 --> 00:32:36.368
sometimes by blowing the whole thing up.
00:32:36.688 --> 00:32:40.728
Jack actually used a cell biology image that was wild and fascinating and it
00:32:40.728 --> 00:32:44.708
stuck with me, that cells actually respond to signals from neighboring cells.
00:32:44.908 --> 00:32:49.628
If you think about it, when cells divide and creating life, they're just a bunch of cells.
00:32:49.788 --> 00:32:53.208
They respond to signals from neighboring cells. They don't operate independently.
00:32:53.388 --> 00:32:56.688
Some cells, given the right signal, integrate and become something new,
00:32:56.688 --> 00:32:59.488
some new organ some new it's fascinating the body the
00:32:59.488 --> 00:33:02.428
human body is a miracle other cells though given the same signal
00:33:02.428 --> 00:33:06.748
behave destructively some literally self-destruct like i guess viruses and things
00:33:06.748 --> 00:33:10.048
like that different cells have different thresholds for what they can absorb
00:33:10.048 --> 00:33:14.508
and then what shatters them so here's my big old speculative leap and i want
00:33:14.508 --> 00:33:18.788
to be clear it is a very big leap but what if people are somewhat similar the
00:33:18.788 --> 00:33:21.368
grounded partner is essentially sending a new signal into the system.
00:33:22.062 --> 00:33:25.722
Some nervous systems, meaning their partners, can take that signal and adapt.
00:33:25.882 --> 00:33:28.742
You bet. I'm ready to go be a heart or a liver.
00:33:28.942 --> 00:33:31.302
Maybe you wouldn't want to be a liver, but I'm ready to change,
00:33:31.422 --> 00:33:34.622
to be something new, something that is healthier, better for us.
00:33:34.842 --> 00:33:39.162
But then others can't. Not because they're bad, but because their regulatory
00:33:39.162 --> 00:33:44.822
capacity built from early childhood adversity, trauma, wiring, all of it.
00:33:45.142 --> 00:33:49.462
They don't have room yet for destabilization. And if any of this stuff is even
00:33:49.462 --> 00:33:52.262
partly true, it changes how I sit with the couple in front to me because the
00:33:52.262 --> 00:33:55.822
partner who's doing the work isn't doing anything wrong if the relationship comes apart.
00:33:55.982 --> 00:34:00.282
They're sending this signal to get to this new place in the relationship.
00:34:01.022 --> 00:34:06.622
But the system as it currently is, as it currently exists, can't yet take in, can't metabolize.
00:34:06.882 --> 00:34:10.002
And sometimes that feels pretty crummy to say out loud, especially as a couple's
00:34:10.002 --> 00:34:12.702
therapist, because the temptation is then to make somebody a villain,
00:34:12.962 --> 00:34:16.962
the partner who left, the partner who escalated, the therapist who should have done more.
00:34:17.362 --> 00:34:20.422
But the energy landscape image opens something up completely different.
00:34:20.622 --> 00:34:25.442
Sometimes a system reaches a place where its current valley doesn't work anymore
00:34:25.442 --> 00:34:27.102
and the next valley over isn't available.
00:34:27.302 --> 00:34:31.662
And what's between the two is a climb and the system maybe can't make it right now.
00:34:31.802 --> 00:34:38.262
Or one of the people is so set in their ways of trauma that they don't want to try.
00:34:38.482 --> 00:34:43.842
And if their partner tries, it can probably feel like a deep form of abandonment
00:34:43.842 --> 00:34:48.262
if their partner no longer can remain in the relationship as it is.
00:34:48.898 --> 00:34:52.638
But they're willing to go and look for this new energy landscape because they
00:34:52.638 --> 00:34:53.898
can't put the genie back in the bottle.
00:34:54.018 --> 00:34:55.518
They can't go back into the unhealthy,
00:34:55.518 --> 00:34:59.478
toxic dynamic that they have been co-regulating around for so long.
00:34:59.858 --> 00:35:04.258
Okay. End of the tangent back to the main thread. So how do these two things sit together?
00:35:04.438 --> 00:35:08.258
So validation is real and validation is powerful. And I think it does get a bad rap.
00:35:08.418 --> 00:35:12.138
It needs a new PR department because it isn't a negative thing.
00:35:12.238 --> 00:35:15.078
It can make us feel better and more connected and close.
00:35:15.878 --> 00:35:18.978
However, needing validation is a trap.
00:35:19.398 --> 00:35:23.458
So both of those things are true. So where does that leave someone who is really
00:35:23.458 --> 00:35:24.918
trying to show up and be a good partner?
00:35:25.258 --> 00:35:29.358
Let's talk about the word paradox, because to me, if you spend any time around
00:35:29.358 --> 00:35:33.438
mental health work, you start to notice that the most helpful mental health
00:35:33.438 --> 00:35:38.158
moves are almost always, and I don't like to use the word always or never,
00:35:38.458 --> 00:35:39.838
but almost always paradoxical.
00:35:40.158 --> 00:35:44.678
The things that look like they should make you better often make you worse.
00:35:44.878 --> 00:35:49.038
And then the things that look like they should make things worse are often where the growth lives.
00:35:49.438 --> 00:35:53.798
I talk as often as I can about the negative impacts of shame.
00:35:53.978 --> 00:35:59.018
I don't think that I've ever worked with anybody where shame has been a component of growth.
00:35:59.258 --> 00:36:03.778
Yet most people still go to this place of shame that I am bad.
00:36:03.938 --> 00:36:04.818
Something is wrong with me.
00:36:05.338 --> 00:36:10.378
If that was the thing that worked, then everybody would be better and I wouldn't have a job.
00:36:10.598 --> 00:36:13.398
And people would go around shaming each other, shaming themselves,
00:36:13.678 --> 00:36:14.698
and then live happily ever after.
00:36:15.098 --> 00:36:19.338
But it's moving away from that, which is so difficult because it's so deeply
00:36:19.338 --> 00:36:21.978
rooted in us that is the thing that actually helps.
00:36:22.338 --> 00:36:26.098
Or I'd say a more obvious example is the concept of discomfort.
00:36:26.338 --> 00:36:31.198
The human default is to avoid discomfort. We move away from hard conversations,
00:36:31.638 --> 00:36:34.038
difficult feelings, awkward truths.
00:36:34.218 --> 00:36:40.958
And the more that we avoid, the more our life gets organized around what do I have to do to avoid?
00:36:41.138 --> 00:36:46.098
What do I have to do so people won't find out until that avoidance itself is
00:36:46.098 --> 00:36:47.958
the problem and it gets too big to manage.
00:36:48.619 --> 00:36:51.539
So the paradox is that growth lives inside the
00:36:51.539 --> 00:36:54.519
discomfort that we're running from growth from discomfort so when
00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:57.879
somebody learns to lean into the thing that they used to dodge it's
00:36:57.879 --> 00:37:02.519
not because they are a sadist or a masochist but it's because all right i now
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.679
have the confidence that i'm going to grow through the discomfort that i'm going
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:08.839
to be able to make it through this the world is still going to spin people could
00:37:08.839 --> 00:37:13.479
get upset and frustrated and angry and all those emotions and it's going to
00:37:13.479 --> 00:37:17.519
be okay now your version of okay we could talk about that,
00:37:18.570 --> 00:37:22.490
everything continues to move. And I think certainty works the same way.
00:37:22.650 --> 00:37:25.650
We crave certainty. We want to know that the marriage will last,
00:37:25.750 --> 00:37:27.870
that this relationship is going to be worth the time I'm going to spend,
00:37:28.030 --> 00:37:31.270
that this job, if I change jobs, that it's going to pay off in the long run,
00:37:31.410 --> 00:37:35.330
that the kids will turn out and the career will work, and that the diagnosis will be benign.
00:37:35.930 --> 00:37:42.030
The more we need certainty, the less able we are to be present in the actual
00:37:42.030 --> 00:37:47.010
life that we are in because the actual life that we're in is uncertain by definition.
00:37:47.730 --> 00:37:51.210
We can make lots of guesses and set amazing, wonderful goals,
00:37:51.230 --> 00:37:53.730
and then we can work toward those guesses and goals.
00:37:54.130 --> 00:37:57.570
But somebody forgot to tell life that that's the thing that we're doing.
00:37:57.770 --> 00:38:03.210
The paradox is that accepting the uncertainty is what makes you more in the
00:38:03.210 --> 00:38:05.630
present moment. It makes the present moment more available.
00:38:06.070 --> 00:38:09.750
You can't be here while you're trying to nail down what's coming next,
00:38:09.750 --> 00:38:11.830
or I should have known something from the past.
00:38:11.950 --> 00:38:14.770
I would say then the validation paradox follows that same pattern.
00:38:14.770 --> 00:38:17.710
The thing that looks like the answer, get validated by your partner.
00:38:18.350 --> 00:38:21.330
Manage their emotions, make sure everything they're okay in order for me to
00:38:21.330 --> 00:38:23.290
be okay, is the thing that traps you.
00:38:23.450 --> 00:38:28.150
So the thing that looks impossible, give validation generously without needing
00:38:28.150 --> 00:38:31.290
it back, is the thing that can open up the relationship.
00:38:31.870 --> 00:38:35.370
Because in order to even give that validation, I need to know and understand
00:38:35.370 --> 00:38:40.870
what you are experiencing and what you're going through and not how it makes me feel.
00:38:40.870 --> 00:38:45.290
That resolution then is in differentiation itself because a differentiated person
00:38:45.290 --> 00:38:48.930
can give validation generously because giving it doesn't cost them anything.
00:38:49.150 --> 00:38:53.470
They're not bidding for it to come back to them. They're not buying future credit.
00:38:53.650 --> 00:38:56.670
They're not building up that emotional bank account. They're not soothing their
00:38:56.670 --> 00:38:59.010
own anxiety by managing their partner's mood.
00:38:59.190 --> 00:39:03.290
They're not trying to find the right thing to say so that they can feel okay.
00:39:03.290 --> 00:39:08.250
They eventually learn to have a quiet enough mind and a calm enough heart,
00:39:08.450 --> 00:39:13.590
to use Schnarch's phrase, that they can sit with their partner's pain without
00:39:13.590 --> 00:39:17.110
needing to fix it for their own regulation.
00:39:18.074 --> 00:39:22.794
A differentiated person can also receive validation when it shows up without
00:39:22.794 --> 00:39:25.894
it becoming a structural beam of their self-worth.
00:39:26.034 --> 00:39:29.874
It turns out it becomes a bonus. It's not a verdict of who you are.
00:39:30.054 --> 00:39:33.394
And a differentiated person can hear something difficult from their partner,
00:39:33.654 --> 00:39:38.694
including a refusal to validate them and then stay standing and be okay.
00:39:39.154 --> 00:39:42.874
Their sense of self doesn't fall apart when their partner doesn't reflect back
00:39:42.874 --> 00:39:45.754
to them in the way that they want them to.
00:39:46.334 --> 00:39:49.074
This is the move that Schnarch calls self-validated intimacy.
00:39:49.334 --> 00:39:53.574
And it's so much harder than what most of us were sold about relationships.
00:39:53.814 --> 00:39:56.734
Because most of us were sold the idea that the right partner makes you feel
00:39:56.734 --> 00:39:59.794
seen and valued and safe and it just unfolds and happens naturally.
00:40:00.434 --> 00:40:03.454
Schnarch would say the right relationship makes you build the version of yourself
00:40:03.454 --> 00:40:07.514
that doesn't need to be made to feel those things by another person.
00:40:07.914 --> 00:40:10.694
There's a line that I keep coming back to that in an adult relationship,
00:40:10.694 --> 00:40:13.254
you can have love or you can have control. You cannot have both.
00:40:13.954 --> 00:40:17.234
Validation given as a gift is one of love's truest forms.
00:40:17.474 --> 00:40:22.134
Validation given as a transaction is control with the better PR firm, the better marketing.
00:40:22.634 --> 00:40:27.054
So the paradox concept, I think, holds true here. Validate generously,
00:40:27.094 --> 00:40:31.354
but do it from a place of genuine validation because you are learning about
00:40:31.354 --> 00:40:33.774
your partner. You're trying to understand who they are.
00:40:34.294 --> 00:40:37.494
Don't make your partner responsible for delivering it back, though.
00:40:38.014 --> 00:40:41.214
Both halves of that sentence have to stay alive at the same time.
00:40:41.214 --> 00:40:44.094
The moment you try to resolve it cleanly one way or the other,
00:40:44.454 --> 00:40:47.654
then you lose the power of this differentiation moment.
00:40:48.094 --> 00:40:51.754
The discomfort that you want to skip is where growth lives.
00:40:51.954 --> 00:40:56.494
The certainty that you want to know and grab hold of is the thing keeping you
00:40:56.494 --> 00:40:58.754
out of your own life and being in the present moment.
00:40:59.194 --> 00:41:04.374
The paradox isn't a problem to solve. It's actually the thing to then welcome and acknowledge.
00:41:04.554 --> 00:41:09.294
Oh, okay. The paradoxical thing. It's the thing that I'm probably avoiding the
00:41:09.294 --> 00:41:11.254
most is telling me something.
00:41:12.043 --> 00:41:14.403
And then there's one more thing I think to fit in here as well,
00:41:14.463 --> 00:41:16.863
because none of this works without it. And this is big.
00:41:17.143 --> 00:41:20.803
If you can't validate yourself, you cannot really give validation away as a
00:41:20.803 --> 00:41:24.443
gift. You can maybe loan it out, but you're kind of waiting for it to return.
00:41:24.843 --> 00:41:30.143
The whole structure of self-validated intimacy is built on the floor of self-validation.
00:41:31.343 --> 00:41:34.903
Now, what does that look like? Because here's where we start getting into the world of cliches.
00:41:35.083 --> 00:41:38.483
Usually you'll hear the advice is just to learn to be okay with yourself or
00:41:38.483 --> 00:41:39.603
just learn to self-validate.
00:41:39.603 --> 00:41:45.603
And that on its own is kind of useless because if you've already built your
00:41:45.603 --> 00:41:48.823
entire sense of self on the validation of other people, which most of us have
00:41:48.823 --> 00:41:50.443
for the reasons that we talked about earlier,
00:41:50.763 --> 00:41:55.383
then you truly don't actually know who you are without interacting with somebody
00:41:55.383 --> 00:41:59.463
else who is telling you this is who you are or this is what I think you should do.
00:41:59.463 --> 00:42:04.103
There really isn't a real deep self in there yet that you can validate.
00:42:04.443 --> 00:42:08.463
This is where I become an unapologetic acceptance and commitment therapy fanboy
00:42:08.463 --> 00:42:12.383
because in ACT, that is the work of figuring out who you actually are.
00:42:12.683 --> 00:42:17.343
What drives you? What do you actually care about? What are your core values?
00:42:17.967 --> 00:42:22.147
And again, a value is not something you land at. A value is not to make a million
00:42:22.147 --> 00:42:24.647
dollars. A value is a North Star.
00:42:24.927 --> 00:42:27.347
A value is something you can always turn back to, like curiosity,
00:42:27.587 --> 00:42:29.607
like adventure, like connection.
00:42:30.007 --> 00:42:34.107
It's what you want your life pointed at, and it will help you discover the things
00:42:34.107 --> 00:42:37.407
you like. But that last one is kind of sneakier than it sounds.
00:42:37.707 --> 00:42:42.067
Because if you can't easily answer what you like to read or watch or listen
00:42:42.067 --> 00:42:45.087
to or eat or to do when you have time by yourself on a weekend,
00:42:45.287 --> 00:42:49.567
and I think a lot of adults can't, It's usually not because the answer does
00:42:49.567 --> 00:42:53.247
not exist, but maybe somewhere along the way, you learn to check what other
00:42:53.247 --> 00:42:55.947
people would think of your answer before you let yourself have one,
00:42:56.147 --> 00:43:00.427
which means that even if your taste was being run through this external validation filter,
00:43:00.667 --> 00:43:04.027
you still weren't necessarily choosing what you like because you're aware that
00:43:04.027 --> 00:43:06.807
maybe that isn't the right thing to like, which is kind of crazy when you lay
00:43:06.807 --> 00:43:08.007
it out the way that we're talking about it today.
00:43:08.327 --> 00:43:14.167
But you're more choosing what was safe to like, which is still a form of needing
00:43:14.167 --> 00:43:17.567
external validation. You need somebody else to tell you that the thing that
00:43:17.567 --> 00:43:20.767
you like or that the thing that you want to do or even the thing that you did is okay.
00:43:21.187 --> 00:43:25.507
This is where the work starts to come into play. It is your own hero's journey.
00:43:25.967 --> 00:43:29.067
Going back and forth, figuring out what is actually you. You're not going to
00:43:29.067 --> 00:43:31.867
know. You're going to start doing and trying and figuring things out.
00:43:32.267 --> 00:43:36.567
It's this journey to figure out what you actually enjoy, what you'd choose with
00:43:36.567 --> 00:43:39.147
your time if nobody were watching and nobody were grading you.
00:43:39.427 --> 00:43:42.867
What matters to you when nobody's going to clap and applaud and say,
00:43:42.967 --> 00:43:46.687
way to go. So, and then knowing that even the, I don't even know what I like,
00:43:46.727 --> 00:43:49.627
or I don't know what my values are, I don't know what my values are,
00:43:49.887 --> 00:43:54.327
is a story that my brain can still get me fused to and stuck on.
00:43:54.687 --> 00:43:58.387
I have people that will come in after a couple of weeks or a month and say,
00:43:58.607 --> 00:44:01.707
man, I still haven't figured out what they even do to start.
00:44:02.816 --> 00:44:06.836
That's still this fear that I'm going to do the wrong thing. Just start doing.
00:44:07.236 --> 00:44:12.256
And then that work done over months and years is eventually what gives you something to validate.
00:44:12.556 --> 00:44:15.856
That kernel of truth that you're looking for in your own experience becomes
00:44:15.856 --> 00:44:19.116
something you find, you discover because now you have a reference point.
00:44:19.396 --> 00:44:25.276
You start to know what you can stand on. It is such a cliche and it is never felt more real.
00:44:25.676 --> 00:44:29.156
The more that you figure out who you are is that if I don't love myself,
00:44:29.416 --> 00:44:34.856
I cannot genuinely love another person because I'm trying to figure out how can I get them to love me?
00:44:34.976 --> 00:44:38.896
Then I'm showing up as any different version of myself, hoping that's going
00:44:38.896 --> 00:44:41.696
to be the right one to get them to love me and that that will feel good.
00:44:42.016 --> 00:44:46.596
If I love myself, truly love myself, now I can absolutely love this other person.
00:44:46.916 --> 00:44:51.216
And back to the Psychology Today article, her piece and I think Shnarsh's first
00:44:51.216 --> 00:44:54.976
point of balance are walking up to the same door kind of from two different angles.
00:44:55.436 --> 00:44:58.256
Shnarsh is talking about knowing who you are without needing anybody else to
00:44:58.256 --> 00:45:01.316
tell you, being able to confront yourself honestly, staying authentic,
00:45:01.956 --> 00:45:04.276
figuring out who you are under pressure to be someone else.
00:45:04.936 --> 00:45:08.696
Self-validation in that sense is not the same as positive self-talk.
00:45:08.876 --> 00:45:10.676
It's not telling yourself you're amazing.
00:45:10.936 --> 00:45:14.316
It's the harder move of noticing what you're feeling and recognizing,
00:45:14.516 --> 00:45:17.096
again, this kernel of truth in it and giving it room to exist without trying
00:45:17.096 --> 00:45:18.236
to talk yourself out of it.
00:45:18.356 --> 00:45:23.596
The practice that the author Lusk offers is worth, I think, really kind of slowing down.
00:45:24.496 --> 00:45:27.136
She talks about noticing a moment when you've been harsh with yourself.
00:45:27.696 --> 00:45:29.336
Find where you feel it in your body.
00:45:29.756 --> 00:45:33.536
Get curious about what that harsh voice is trying to do.
00:45:33.816 --> 00:45:38.476
Protect you, fix you, motivate you. And where did you first hear that voice?
00:45:38.936 --> 00:45:44.556
And then once you've actually listened, tell yourself a kinder and more accurate truth.
00:45:44.736 --> 00:45:47.956
So something like, man, it makes sense that I learned to talk to myself this
00:45:47.956 --> 00:45:50.896
way because that's the way it was modeled to me.
00:45:51.518 --> 00:45:55.638
Now I'm going to choose something else. The body piece is worth noting because
00:45:55.638 --> 00:45:59.778
most of us live so far up in our heads and trying to intellectualize things
00:45:59.778 --> 00:46:02.438
that we're trying to argue our way to internal peace.
00:46:02.698 --> 00:46:06.978
Self-validation, the kind that actually changes anything, usually has to land
00:46:06.978 --> 00:46:09.658
in the body before the head catches up.
00:46:10.078 --> 00:46:14.998
And that's the work that lets everything else in this episode become real instead of just theoretical.
00:46:15.278 --> 00:46:19.998
Because without it, you're just collecting another framework. This, it sounds good.
00:46:20.731 --> 00:46:25.111
Back to Veronica. She's sitting on the edge of the bed. What could Archie have done differently?
00:46:25.731 --> 00:46:30.111
The temptation is to hand him a script and pay attention, reflect what you heard,
00:46:30.291 --> 00:46:32.051
acknowledge the feeling, ask before solving.
00:46:32.411 --> 00:46:36.551
And Lusk gives all those tools in her article and their real tools worth practicing.
00:46:36.971 --> 00:46:41.991
I think a more useful question might be what Archie would have needed to be
00:46:41.991 --> 00:46:45.011
capable of in order for any of those tools to land.
00:46:45.571 --> 00:46:49.531
Because he would have needed to stay with her in her pain long enough to actually
00:46:49.531 --> 00:46:53.711
hear it. without his own nervous system shoving him toward the nearest exit.
00:46:54.051 --> 00:46:57.751
So even if you hand him a script, tell his nervous system about that.
00:46:58.111 --> 00:47:02.091
He would have needed a self solid enough that her bad day didn't become his
00:47:02.091 --> 00:47:03.971
emergency that he needed to get rid of.
00:47:04.151 --> 00:47:06.271
The script is downstream.
00:47:06.691 --> 00:47:12.911
The differentiation is upstream. And I could not wait to work this concept into
00:47:12.911 --> 00:47:18.571
a podcast because the word upstreams, it's something that I've been using more and more.
00:47:19.171 --> 00:47:23.171
So when we talk about a reaction, Archie rushing to fix Veronica's mood and
00:47:23.171 --> 00:47:24.611
Veronica coming home already shaky,
00:47:24.871 --> 00:47:29.131
what we usually see and we try to work on is the downstream moment,
00:47:29.391 --> 00:47:32.951
the reaction itself, the words that you're going to say, the script that we're
00:47:32.951 --> 00:47:35.011
supposed to use in the middle of the conflict.
00:47:35.611 --> 00:47:40.411
Upstream is everything that set up that moment. And it could go back days,
00:47:40.611 --> 00:47:45.851
weeks, months, years, nervous system regulation in the hours and days before
00:47:45.851 --> 00:47:48.271
the conversation happened. That's looking upstream.
00:47:48.571 --> 00:47:50.831
And that can be things that are going to sound pretty boring.
00:47:51.291 --> 00:47:56.971
Sleep, food, hydration, movement, sunlight, time outside, time alone.
00:47:57.271 --> 00:48:04.951
The mindfulness practice that builds the capacity to notice your own state before it takes over.
00:48:05.171 --> 00:48:09.471
Because by the time you're reacting, if I'm being honest, it's already too late.
00:48:10.171 --> 00:48:13.431
And I'm not saying that like you're doomed, but it just is acceptance.
00:48:13.731 --> 00:48:16.791
The reaction is happening at a speed that your conscious mind can't catch up to.
00:48:17.111 --> 00:48:19.851
This is one of the few places where I think the nervous system science,
00:48:19.851 --> 00:48:24.771
it gets really practical and it's to me helpful to know and to understand.
00:48:25.251 --> 00:48:29.691
Because if you want a fighter's chance at responding in a moment instead of
00:48:29.691 --> 00:48:33.991
reacting, you have to give your nervous system the conditions to stay online.
00:48:34.171 --> 00:48:38.331
And those you're going to actually be able to do the more you learn about where
00:48:38.331 --> 00:48:40.231
upstream did this reaction start?
00:48:40.771 --> 00:48:45.731
Hydrated, slept, fed, moved, outside, even briefly, that boring stuff,
00:48:45.891 --> 00:48:46.811
that's the upstream stuff.
00:48:47.031 --> 00:48:51.111
And there's an old acronym in recovery that lands here too, halt,
00:48:51.351 --> 00:48:53.111
hungry, angry, lonely, tired.
00:48:53.471 --> 00:48:58.911
If you find yourself reacting bigger than the situation actually calls for, go through those four.
00:48:59.131 --> 00:49:02.051
It's almost always at least one of those that's at play.
00:49:02.531 --> 00:49:08.071
And when you find it, and this is so key, it's not an excuse, it's data.
00:49:08.071 --> 00:49:12.471
The move of, man, I snapped because I hadn't eaten, used to defend yourself
00:49:12.471 --> 00:49:16.671
in a conversation, is still outsourcing your stuff to somebody else for validation.
00:49:16.671 --> 00:49:18.291
You want them to tell you it's okay.
00:49:18.871 --> 00:49:22.271
The actual upstream move is, I snapped. And when I look back,
00:49:22.411 --> 00:49:25.171
I noticed that I was running on three hours of sleep and I hadn't eaten since
00:49:25.171 --> 00:49:27.491
breakfast and it's already almost bedtime.
00:49:27.971 --> 00:49:32.531
That's good data. That's information about me, about what I need to set up differently next time.
00:49:32.591 --> 00:49:36.791
And I'm not saying the next time that she walks in and has this bad information
00:49:36.791 --> 00:49:41.271
from her boss. It's that's going to help set me up to be able to deal with whatever
00:49:41.271 --> 00:49:42.731
it is that life throws at me.
00:49:42.891 --> 00:49:46.151
So the script is downstream, the differentiation upstream.
00:49:46.631 --> 00:49:49.391
And so is most everything that gives your nervous system more of a chance.
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:52.619
And then let's talk about Veronica. So she walks in the door.
00:49:52.819 --> 00:49:56.019
She's already shaky, already needed something from him to feel okay.
00:49:56.319 --> 00:49:59.239
Important to note that with that said, she could have been in a state that even
00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:01.979
if Archie would have said the perfect thing, whatever the perfect thing would
00:50:01.979 --> 00:50:03.899
have been, there's a chance she would have settled.
00:50:04.339 --> 00:50:09.499
Maybe, maybe not. And if she would have for tonight, but the underlying setup would still be there.
00:50:09.659 --> 00:50:14.699
Her piece, depending on him saying the right words, showing up from the right
00:50:14.699 --> 00:50:18.759
person at the right time can calm one's anxiety. So a lot of times our brain
00:50:18.759 --> 00:50:21.779
goes back to, but this one time when I did say the one thing, then it worked.
00:50:22.179 --> 00:50:26.419
And it did that one time for the one thing, but this is a different time with different things.
00:50:26.839 --> 00:50:30.059
What if Veronica had walked in the door and she actually was already settled?
00:50:30.279 --> 00:50:32.839
Not because the day wasn't hard, all the same stuff happened.
00:50:32.939 --> 00:50:36.679
It was, but because she'd done the work, even in the car on the way home of
00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:39.819
acknowledging what she actually felt, finding the kernel of truth in it,
00:50:39.919 --> 00:50:42.539
sitting with her fear without needing to be talked out of it,
00:50:42.979 --> 00:50:45.199
then she could still share that with Archie.
00:50:45.339 --> 00:50:49.739
That's the amazing thing. It's not that you don't need your partner or you want
00:50:49.739 --> 00:50:53.019
your partner, you're choosing your partner to then process these things with.
00:50:53.479 --> 00:50:57.539
Then whatever Archie said could have been a bonus connection instead of trying
00:50:57.539 --> 00:50:59.479
to get rescued or trying to rescue the other person.
00:50:59.739 --> 00:51:03.499
So both of those moves, Archie building the self that can sit with her pain
00:51:03.499 --> 00:51:06.779
and then Veronica building the self that doesn't require him to,
00:51:07.179 --> 00:51:09.199
which again, doesn't mean that we're not going to communicate.
00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:13.619
But I'm not depending on him to say the right things to make me feel better.
00:51:13.759 --> 00:51:15.819
And if he doesn't, then he doesn't care and I'm unlovable.
00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:21.439
But those things can both be true. You've got that Archie building the self.
00:51:22.217 --> 00:51:27.837
Creating the container to handle her emotions and Veronica being able to self-soothe,
00:51:28.017 --> 00:51:32.197
calm her own anxiety so it doesn't require him to do anything.
00:51:33.077 --> 00:51:36.157
That's the same work, differentiation from both sides of the relationship.
00:51:36.957 --> 00:51:41.357
And there are stages along this path because I would imagine even some of you
00:51:41.357 --> 00:51:45.157
are thinking, I don't even really know what this guy just talked about for 45 minutes or an hour.
00:51:45.557 --> 00:51:48.417
Others are saying, okay, I get it, but man, I don't do it very often.
00:51:48.637 --> 00:51:51.837
Some might be patting themselves on the back a little bit saying,
00:51:51.977 --> 00:51:53.637
all right, I'm starting to do this more than I didn't before.
00:51:54.377 --> 00:51:57.837
Stages. Stage one. And these stages, you bet.
00:51:57.977 --> 00:52:01.797
I have been working these in as much as I can because they're really resonating.
00:52:01.897 --> 00:52:05.177
I hear that from my clients who listen to the podcast. I'm receiving more emails
00:52:05.177 --> 00:52:06.117
that are talking about this.
00:52:06.217 --> 00:52:08.497
It's helped me so much. I want to lean into this. Stage one,
00:52:08.997 --> 00:52:10.317
unconscious incompetence.
00:52:10.637 --> 00:52:12.257
You don't know what you don't know.
00:52:12.945 --> 00:52:17.185
An example, you walk into the kitchen, you see dishes in the sink, and you are mad.
00:52:17.505 --> 00:52:22.925
You don't even know why you're that mad. You just know that your partner in
00:52:22.925 --> 00:52:24.285
the moment, they are the worst.
00:52:24.465 --> 00:52:27.305
They do this all the time. I can't believe it. They don't care about me.
00:52:27.465 --> 00:52:30.865
The reaction, though, feels justified because you're that mad.
00:52:31.025 --> 00:52:33.865
You're not even aware that there's another way to be in that situation.
00:52:34.325 --> 00:52:37.365
Now, stage two, conscious incompetence.
00:52:38.005 --> 00:52:42.605
You walk in, you see the dishes, and that irritation still flares up in you.
00:52:43.105 --> 00:52:46.765
Somewhere in the middle of it, maybe you catch yourself. Sometimes you don't, but you're aware.
00:52:47.085 --> 00:52:50.165
You know, your reaction's probably a little bit over the top.
00:52:50.285 --> 00:52:51.865
It's a little bigger than what's actually happening.
00:52:52.365 --> 00:52:57.085
You know, you're not really mad about the dishes, maybe kind of feels that way,
00:52:57.205 --> 00:53:01.085
but something else about it, you still can't quite stop it. You grumble,
00:53:01.265 --> 00:53:02.185
you make the comment anyway.
00:53:02.485 --> 00:53:05.965
And this is the stage that's the hardest. It's the one where people want to quit.
00:53:06.085 --> 00:53:09.005
They wish they didn't know what they didn't know because awareness has arrived,
00:53:09.145 --> 00:53:12.205
but mastery hasn't. And the reason I like laying it out this way is because
00:53:12.205 --> 00:53:15.385
hopefully when you hear it that way, of course it hasn't. This is all new.
00:53:15.645 --> 00:53:18.545
You're going through this. You got nervous systems and the need for validation
00:53:18.545 --> 00:53:21.705
and managing the other person's anxiety and real life happening.
00:53:22.205 --> 00:53:26.385
Watching yourself do the thing without being able to stop the thing is painful,
00:53:26.385 --> 00:53:32.845
but you're on the path of growth because soon-ish, eventually.
00:53:33.405 --> 00:53:36.685
Stage three, conscious competence. The dishes are there.
00:53:36.925 --> 00:53:40.705
You notice a little bit of the irritation. You pause. you feel it move through
00:53:40.705 --> 00:53:43.705
your body. You remind yourself that your partner does a lot of things that you
00:53:43.705 --> 00:53:44.465
don't always acknowledge.
00:53:44.965 --> 00:53:47.985
You recognize that nobody's perfect, including you on a Tuesday,
00:53:48.045 --> 00:53:51.205
and you let it pass without making it everybody else's problem.
00:53:51.205 --> 00:53:55.105
And you probably put the dishes away and you don't need to say, do you see what I did?
00:53:55.365 --> 00:53:59.945
Then stage four, unconscious competence. The dishes are there. There's no spiral.
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:04.179
There's just noticing they are there. Maybe you load them. Maybe you mention
00:54:04.179 --> 00:54:05.499
it later. Maybe you don't.
00:54:05.819 --> 00:54:11.319
There's no big mood or moment around them. It just is.
00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:14.759
If you find yourself in stage two right now, aware, but still reacting,
00:54:15.019 --> 00:54:16.719
welcome to the human experience.
00:54:16.959 --> 00:54:20.559
It's part of the process that most people quit. It's where they quit going to therapy.
00:54:20.879 --> 00:54:24.739
They go back to listening to, I don't know, I want to just say fantasy books.
00:54:24.919 --> 00:54:27.559
I'm not saying that listening to fantasy books is bad, but I know that I hear
00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:31.539
people often say that they will listen to things like my podcast for a while
00:54:31.539 --> 00:54:32.559
until it gets frustrating.
00:54:32.779 --> 00:54:36.699
And it's funny because they'll say to me as almost then I need to do something about that.
00:54:36.859 --> 00:54:40.439
My bad. But that just means that it's getting uncomfortable and the person is
00:54:40.439 --> 00:54:41.839
probably aware, but they're not doing.
00:54:42.299 --> 00:54:47.499
That part as well, this conscious incompetence is the part that's closer to
00:54:47.499 --> 00:54:48.599
the other side than it feels.
00:54:48.799 --> 00:54:50.999
The awareness is landing in the body.
00:54:51.219 --> 00:54:54.259
It just takes longer than the awareness landing in the head.
00:54:54.419 --> 00:55:00.059
I'll get it. It'll make sense, but I don't feel it or I'm not doing it yet. So keep going.
00:55:00.439 --> 00:55:02.419
And what do we learn today?
00:55:03.079 --> 00:55:06.079
Validation is real. The research is very real.
00:55:06.739 --> 00:55:13.539
And it is something that we have needed. And now we need to learn to not live off of it.
00:55:13.719 --> 00:55:15.919
It is nice to have. Practice it generously.
00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:19.479
Look for the kernel of truth in the people that you love, even if their reality
00:55:19.479 --> 00:55:22.819
doesn't match yours. and then keep doing that harder work underneath.
00:55:23.339 --> 00:55:28.299
Look further upstream. The work of being someone who can give that gift of validation
00:55:28.299 --> 00:55:33.759
and seeing the other person without needing credit for it and learning how to
00:55:33.759 --> 00:55:36.799
stand on your own ground, even when it doesn't come back.
00:55:37.548 --> 00:55:40.868
That is the thing that is going to change the way you show up in a relationship.
00:55:41.388 --> 00:55:45.248
And that's where intimacy actually lives. I would love your thoughts,
00:55:45.368 --> 00:55:48.508
your questions, examples, experiences, anything that you have about this.
00:55:48.608 --> 00:55:50.528
Share it with somebody if you think that it would help them.
00:55:50.908 --> 00:55:53.948
And taking this out per usual, the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence with
00:55:53.948 --> 00:55:57.828
her song, it's wonderful because dug on it, it really is. We'll see you next
00:55:57.828 --> 00:55:58.768
time on The Virtual Touch.