The Madeleine McCann Files_ Where Did the Case Go Wrong_ _ True Crime_ Dissected Podcast _ Pilot

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I'm Shahan, a forensic psychiatrist and expert witness.
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And I'm Paul Connolly, an investigative journalist specialising in undercover
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work and boots-on-the-ground reporting.
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This is True Crime Dissected.
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Let's start with a case that most people think they understand.
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Certainly very familiar to most people, but there are angles,
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nuances to this that people are familiar with.
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So it's 2007, May.
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3rd, three-year-old British girl, disappears from a holiday apartment in
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Praia de Luz in Portugal.
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Madeleine McCann.
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Now, to paint the picture for those of you that
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are unfamiliar with this, or just to fill in the
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pieces of the jigsaw and then add to it in
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a while. Her parents are having dinner with friends at
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a tapas restaurant a bit 50 metres away, so not far.
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Kids are asleep in the apartment. There's three kids, two
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others aside from Madeleine, and the Evils check in on
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them throughout the evening as they're having dinner, right? So
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then just after 10 o'clock, the mum, Kate McCann, walks
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back to the apartment. They'd been doing this all night, right?
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But this time it's different. The bedroom door is open.
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The window is open.
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And Madeline is gone.
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All right? So what follows becomes one of, without question,
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the most notorious, most infamous missing child investigations across the world.
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So there is a sort of pattern this took that
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people will be familiar with. Portuguese police, after a period
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of time, suspect the parents. That theory completely collapses after
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a while. British police, they open.
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Their own investigation.
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Millions upon millions of pounds are spent. Thousands of leads
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are examined. The vast majority, red herrings and dead ends.
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Still no clear answer.
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All right, so fast forward 13 years. 2020. German prosecutors
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make a huge, unexpected, very dramatic announcement. They believe they
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know who is responsible. The German drifter with a long
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criminal history called Christian Bruckner.
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All right, now the reason for this, right?
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Phone records place him near Praia de Luz the night
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Madeleine disappeared. So that is hugely incriminating. Massive red flag, naturally.
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Investigators later discover a disturbing material in what you would
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describe as a layer of his linked to children at
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a property and linked to children. But here's the very
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strange part. There's lots that's strange about this, isn't there?
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Nearly 20 years later, he has never been charged with
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the crime. And I mean 20 years from Madeline's disappearance.
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So I think it would be useful for us, right?
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Maybe we just slow all of this down.
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Have a look at this.
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Who exactly is Christian Bruckner.
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So does he have, like, a strong criminal past?
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Yeah, he does, he does.
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Let's ask who Christian Bruckner is. Let's have a look
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at what evidence investigators actually have, because that is so
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crucial in this case.
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And then why, after nearly two.
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Decades, does this case just completely refuse to resolve itself?
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So the police arrive... very quickly, according to reports. But
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here is the first of many huge procedural problems and
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sort of systemic ghosts that sort of litter this particular investigation.
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And the first is, we've all heard about this sort
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of trampling of crime scenes and how that damages forensic evidence.
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The best thing I'd come up with is if you
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imagine the crime scene to be like a hard drive,
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like a computer's hard drive, right? So, If you delete
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a file on hard drive, you can get it back
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most of the time, can't you? Or at least there's
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generally someone clever enough to be able to find it.
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But if you download lots and lots of other stuff,
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if you just keep downloading over other things, well then
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eventually what you had there first is indistinguishable. from everything else.
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The lines become completely blurred. So what that crime scene
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became really, really quickly because they didn't coordinate off at all.
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There were panicked, well-intentioned people just milling through that apartment
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looking for Madeleine. So the hard drive got corrupted, got
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contaminated really quickly. And that's where the first major issue
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with this investigation began. And that's why the Portuguese police
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were sort of floundering so quickly when the world's media
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got a hold of this. Naturally enough, everybody wanted answers.
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And that huge problem that existed at the start was
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the root of all of the sort of issues around this.
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I was trying to look at it from a really
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non-judgmental point of view. I remember that Kate and Jerry
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McCann were demonized really quickly at the time, weren't they?
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So let's just pull at the initial threads that people
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were saying.
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How could you leave your kids? Well, actually, that brings
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me onto it.
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Yeah.
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A glaring question, which is, what do you think? Do
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you think it was a dangerous environment situation? Or another
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way of asking that question is, could you see yourself
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in that situation? Yeah. It's so interesting.
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So before I was a parent, I thought it was impassive.
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I could not believe it. I thought it was so reckless,
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so remarkably irresponsible. And since I've become a parent, I
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can absolutely see how something like that can happen. And
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I actually think they changed the way people parent their kids. Well,
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that was the very first reason that they were demonized,
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wasn't it? People were thinking you're terrible parents, you're sort
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of terrible human beings. And because of, which of course
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isn't the case, and because the crime scene was trampled
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upon and the Portuguese police were groping around in the
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dark looking for answers, trying to connect to threads and
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pieces of the puzzle that didn't connect, that's where they were. So,
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You know about this, and it is the first hours
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of a criminal investigation become, especially in a missing person,
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they say, the first few hours are the most important
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because once they're gone, the belief is that they're gone.
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So on the crime scene being trampled, and I'm building
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to something here, the frustration that still exists around this
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case not being solved, right? So I did a bit
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of nerdish rummaging around last night. And I found something
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called Loward's Exchange Principle. Have you ever heard of this?
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This idea that there will always be a trace. So
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you'll hear this in relation to criminal cases. You know,
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vanished without a trace. Apparently that's not possible. So whoever
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the perpetrator was, whoever the guilty person was, he or she,
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they will, according to Loward's Exchange Principle, have left a trace.
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But that trace has completely vanished now because of the
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fact That it was completely trampled. Yeah, completely trampled over.
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How frustrated would you be as a parent knowing that
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that could have been solved quicker?
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You'd be devastated, wouldn't you?
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Yeah, especially in the context of just being so upset
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that your child's just gone missing.
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So within months, investigation takes a dramatic turn. Portuguese police
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begin to suspect Madeline's parents, Kate and Jerry McCann. They're
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formally named suspects. And... And I'm wondering from a sort
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of psychological point of view, it's not a criminal psychology element,
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but what do you think they must.
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Have been going through at that point?
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They're dealing with the potential, well, they're dealing with the
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potential death of their child, certainly the disappearance of their child,
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but compounding that with having the glare of the world
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media on you and also then you being sort of fingered,
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pointed to as potential suspects in her disappearance.
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Psychologically, what does.
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That weight do?
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So for me, there's just layer upon layer of trauma
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that's been placed on them. I see the disappearance of
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their daughter being the biggest one. So that's the first thing.
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Then they soon learn that the crime scene has been
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contaminated in the same. So because of the mistake in
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the police procedure, that's dramatically decreased the chance of them
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finding their daughter. So there's that to contend with. They
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were on holiday at the time, so it must be
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quite disorientating. You're not even at home in your country.
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Then you get people who are suspicious of you. And
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there was a lot of media hype and comments around
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the time, wasn't it? And I'm sure it didn't escape
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their attention.
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No, of course.
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People were saying horrific things about them being incompetent parents,
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plus probably an element of guilt. Even if it wasn't
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their fault directly, I'm sure they actually felt guilty. So
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it's not just one thing to deal with. There's just
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so many different emotional distresses from so many different roles.
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Yeah.
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It's been devastating.
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Wouldn't it be horrendous? So the theory put forward, posited
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by the Portuguese police, was that Madeline may have died
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accidentally in the apartment and that the parents covered it up.
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There was also lots of fragmented reports that followed, some corroborated,
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some not difficult to differentiate between those. It was talking
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to a cadaver dog, smelling the scent.
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Of death in the apartment.
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There was Madeline's blood was in the car.
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I know.
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Having two kids, that they've cut their fingers, that they're
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forever stubbing their toes. I don't know what that means.
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There's something about the parents giving her some medication to
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help her sleep.
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Yeah, and there was another one.
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Of the theories, absolutely. So did they over-medicate her? Did
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things get out of control?
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Did she die accidentally?
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So all of these, now all of that has fallen through.
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There is absolutely no suggestion, implication, anything. know, that Kate
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and Jerry McCann were responsible for this. Those sort of
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theories have more or less been dismissed at this point.
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But let's, before we get to Brooklyn, let's just look
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at the pressure the police must have been. And remember,
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it's a very small town now. More senior police did
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come from other parts of Portugal. to assist and eventually
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take over in the investigation. But the pressure they must
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have been under to every day find a breakthrough, find
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a villain, find the person that did this. And again,
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I was sort of rummaging around in the psychology of
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this from the investigator's point of view. And I have
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relationships with police in Ireland, the UK, and across Europe.
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And I've bounced this off a couple of them. This
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idea of confirmation bias. You familiar with it? And I
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wonder if that applies in different areas of life as well.
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But remember, you're a police investigator. Maybe you work in
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homicide in a small town. All of a sudden, literally,
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billions of people are putting you under pressure to solve
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this crime, what has become the most notorious missing case
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in relation to a child in modern history.
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I suppose it's quite hard to be ejected in those circumstances,
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isn't it? So if you feel that you've got something
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that's a potential lead... The confirmation bias that you said
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will gravitate towards you accepting that rather than looking at
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it completely mutually.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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And it isn't the idea behind that in the context
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of a case like this. You know, this isn't the
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Portuguese police deciding, look, we've made a mess of this.
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Let's go after the McCanns. Instead, the actual pressure there
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is on them to find a breakthrough results in an
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unconscious decision to stitch the narrative together. To suit the
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outcome that is most desirable. Is that about right?
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For the desperation. We'll be right back with the rest
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of the story.
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We're going to take a quick break for now.
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Portuguese prosecutors dropped the suspicion and cleared the McCanns. The
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investigation moves on, right? But by then, the case had
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already divided public opinion. Some people believe the parents.
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Were guilty already. Some didn't.
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So there's a huge fracture all across the world and
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they were living with that.
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The case to a degree, peters out.
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So one thing that I, that really stands out to
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me about this case is why her case, Madeleine McCann's
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held such a grip on public opinion. Why so much
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attention was given to it compared to many other cases
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and the cases of children disappearing. And I think there
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are some specific reasons. So I think the media coverage
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was because she was, for want of a better marketable,
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so we had this young, blonde, photogenic child, right? And
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she comes from a middle-class family from a professional background.
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As we all know, both of the parents were doctors.
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So I think that's part of it. And I think
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that the setting was quite relatable as well. A popular
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family location going to Portugal. It really resonated deeply with
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the public. And I think that the McCanns actually had
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quite a sophisticated approach management of the media. So they
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actually used a professional PR team most immediately. And there
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was this, I'm sure you remember from when it happened,
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there was this fine modeling campaign. And it was almost
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like a global brand launch. They had like an yellow ribbons.
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They had professional posters put up. They had a specific
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dedicated website, which is quite a needle back then. And
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they had celebrity endorsements from like David Beckham, Cristiano Ronaldo,
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JK Rowling. So I think that's why it was really
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cemented in the public's mind. But to me, what seems
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almost ironic is that there was this disproportional amount of
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attention put towards the McCanns as potential suspects compared to
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the man that we're just about to discuss. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So then here is the part of the story that
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comes out of nowhere. 2020, German prosecutors make a major announcement.
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They believe they know who is responsible for the abduction
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of Madeleine McCann. So his name will be familiar now
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to some people, but not to others. Christian Bruckner. So
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he's a German drifter with a long criminal record. That
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criminal record includes burglary, drug trafficking, sexual offences. He was
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released last year from prison, having been convicted and spent
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time in jail in Germany for the rape of a
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woman in Portugal in Praia da Luz. So for years,
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he lived around the Algarve, advanced abandoned buildings, near tourist areas. Again,
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this isn't making the Portuguese police look great. And investigators
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later discovered something really important. So here is the big
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piece of evidence that they have. On the night Madeleine
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McCann disappeared, a mobile phone linked to Bruckner was active
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in Praia da Luz. And here's the part that's remarkably frustrating.
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doesn't prove his guilt. It points to it, but doesn't
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prove it.
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What do you think about that? Do you personally think
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that's enough evidence to convict somebody?
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No, I don't.
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And that's where you, that's where I think this becomes
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really interesting. So there is circumstantial evidence, you know, so
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were you in the area? Was there possible motivation?
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There is character evidence.
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Are you a person of bad character? Do you have
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a track record, a criminal record, etc. But then there
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is physical evidence, and the threshold for prosecution in sort
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of most Western societies is really high, and it needs
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to be high. The bar is really high. And without
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a confession, without a body, I mean, you're talking about
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a young girl that seems so callous and dark to
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even say it loud, but without a body, it is
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remarkably difficult to to prosecute someone like him. And here
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is the sort of threshold, again, to use that word,
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that is remarkably frustrating for law enforcement all across the world,
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and certainly in this case in Germany and the UK.
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German prosecutors say they.
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Believe Madeleine McCann has passed away. They believe that she
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is dead. They believe that they have their man, or
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they had their man, and had to release him last year.
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So the character evidence points to definitely him. Circumstantial evidence,
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he was in the area, his phone pinged, linked to him,
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they found a lair with all sorts of unusual dark
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and twisted artifacts involving children's clothes and, you know, dolls,
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these types of things.
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But there is no direct evidence. What about you?
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What do you think? Yeah, I mean.
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I just echo your thoughts, really. I mean, do I
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think that it was Christian Bruckner? Yes, and the balance
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of trouble is there's no other more credible suspect.
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Christian Bruckner has a long criminal record, track record, and
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within that, which is extraordinarily incriminating and supports this idea
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that the German police have their man and that Madeleine
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has indeed passed away, is that in his back catalogue
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of crimes... is the sexual assault of a child. So
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that type of criminal and someone who was a sexual offender,
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born or made?
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Yeah, so I think what you're asking is the age
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or question of nature versus nurture, right? And I think
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most professionals would say that it's an element of both.
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So when we talk about nature, the things that you're
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born with, there is a genetic risk. So if a
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man has a first-degree relative, like a father or brother,
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who's committed a sexual offence, he's roughly five times more
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likely than an average person to be convicted of one.
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Wow.
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And then you've got brain architecture. So neuroimaging has shown
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that some offenders have structural differences in the amygdala, which
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is the part of the brain that processes emotion, and
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also the prefrontal cortex, which controls impulse control. These people
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were born with like an almost a lower capacity for
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empathy and a higher drive or need for sensation seeking.
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And then on top of all of that, you've got neurochemistry.
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So I'm sure you've heard of course.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. Which regulates mood, dopamine, the reward system. So they
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have these imbalances. So they have this like this biological
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hunger for high intensity stimulation. So that's all the nature.
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And then there's the nurture, which is like the environmental catalyst.
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So the genetics provides like a predisposition, but the environmental
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triggers activate what are latent traits. And by far the
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best one, no one, is the cycle of abuse. So
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I'm talking about traumatic sexualization themselves. So I'm not saying
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that everybody who's abused a child goes on to offend,
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but there is definitely a strong correlation. So your sexuality
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is shaped in your early years. And if it's done
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inappropriately through abuse, then these individuals, they associate sex with
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power or fear and manipulation. And then as well as that,
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there's social learning. So if you grow up in this
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kind of dysfunctional environment where boundaries are non-existent, then you
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can actually learn that violence is a primary communication tool
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and children can learn to treat others, not really as
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like humans with empathy, but as objects without feelings. Wow.
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Would what you have just said then support the idea
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that this is something that he simply could not stop
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doing that we're not talking about madeline mccann now let's
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get to that just just a moment but the fact
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that he was you know arrested convicted, arrested, convicted for
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these various.
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Crimes before that, including.
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Sexual assault and sexual abuse, normally somebody would stop at
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that point. That would be the ultimate deterrent. But is
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there some compulsion that you understand better, certainly better than
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I do, that someone like him has?
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I think my answer would be that he probably has
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a compulsion.
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Yeah.
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And that's not the same as him not being in
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control of his act.
361
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That's interesting.
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How do you mean? He knows what he's doing is wrong.
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He still knows the emotional and physical damage of what
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he's doing. He just has these impulses, these sexual predatory impulses.
365
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But they are within his control, like with all.
366
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Yeah, and do those impulses then overwrite or maybe even
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just wipe clean his understanding of right and wrong, though?
368
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So he still knows that it's right and wrong. Does
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he interpret right and wrong... in the same way that
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neither you do.
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I think he understands the concept of Ryan Rowe saying
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he's anybody else. He just lacks the everything to care
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about it.
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So two separate scenarios then.
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So let's imagine this is hypothetical because obviously enough, he
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hasn't been convicted for this particular crime. All of the
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evidence would suggest to any rational mind that he would be,
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you know, potentially at least certainly responsible behind the abduction
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of Madeleine McCann. But let's for a moment imagine that
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he is.
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He's in Pride, Duluth. He's living in vans.
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He's living in abandoned.
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Sort of warehouses and apartments. And he spots Mal. And
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he spots the parents. And he takes an interest for
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some reason. Is it a case that he is for days,
386
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maybe even a week or so, watching for patterns, watching
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for opportunities? Or, and I suppose this is my real question,
388
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someone with that particular psychology and and makeup could it
389
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have been a spur of the moment opportunistic thing that
390
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he just couldn't control he saw the parents going back
391
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and forth he knew what they were doing they were
392
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checking the kids there's a window here and that compulsion
393
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:24.339
that sort of pathological twist that's in there forced not
394
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forced him but compelled him to do so opportunism versus planning.
395
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.259
I think i was sort of speculating to a degree
396
00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.410
yeah feeding myself but i think it's much more likely
397
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that it was opportunist really because i think from his
398
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perspective this opportunity like this this window of a chance
399
00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:43.380
is very rare and it's very short so i think
400
00:22:43.420 --> 00:22:44.740
he would have just passed something when he got the
401
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:48.079
chance and use the word compulsion i think he probably
402
00:22:48.099 --> 00:22:50.400
does have some sexual compulsions but i don't think that
403
00:22:51.089 --> 00:22:55.569
overrides his free will. I still think that he understands
404
00:22:55.829 --> 00:22:58.950
the consequences of his actions. Absolutely. He could just choose
405
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to sexually offend, like all sex. Yeah.
406
00:23:02.509 --> 00:23:06.319
So someone that's capable of this type of crime, committing
407
00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:11.779
the act itself, what do they get from that in
408
00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:14.319
that actual moment of abduction?
409
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Is there a Surge of adrenaline.
410
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Is there something addictive in that moment that they want
411
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to return to?
412
00:23:19.430 --> 00:23:22.029
I mean, I don't think the abductions as important to
413
00:23:22.089 --> 00:23:24.970
them as what they intend to do with the victim afterwards.
414
00:23:25.190 --> 00:23:25.650
Yeah.
415
00:23:26.190 --> 00:23:29.390
Quite say we thought. Yeah. But I don't think it's
416
00:23:29.910 --> 00:23:31.670
about the thrill of the abduction. I think it's about
417
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the opportunity to sexually offend afterwards. The abduction is just
418
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a risk they have to go through.
419
00:23:36.109 --> 00:23:40.490
Okay. So in the summer of 2025, just last year,
420
00:23:40.529 --> 00:23:47.910
the investigation then moves on in June. So we'll be
421
00:23:48.069 --> 00:23:49.190
right back with the rest of the story.
422
00:23:49.210 --> 00:23:50.670
We're going to take a quick break for now.
423
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You are very welcome back to True Crime Dissected. So
424
00:23:56.339 --> 00:24:02.339
on we go. Portuguese police carry out a new search.
425
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:05.500
This is, you know, and you remember the police reports.
426
00:24:05.539 --> 00:24:08.480
There is the hope that some new evidence is going
427
00:24:08.509 --> 00:24:10.450
to emerge here. So they carry out a new search
428
00:24:10.990 --> 00:24:14.250
in Praia de Luz. It's led by German prosecutors focused
429
00:24:14.329 --> 00:24:20.460
on on the Lagos area. Material is collected, sent for
430
00:24:20.539 --> 00:24:24.119
forensic testing. So they believe they have their man. All
431
00:24:24.140 --> 00:24:26.559
of the material evidence, all of the character evidence, all
432
00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:30.200
the circumstantial evidence is pointing to this. They need physical evidence.
433
00:24:30.849 --> 00:24:34.609
But when the search ends, no findings are announced whatsoever.
434
00:24:34.630 --> 00:24:36.769
There's something which I find frustrating, I don't know about you.
435
00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:38.329
There's something in this.
436
00:24:38.210 --> 00:24:43.230
That they can't tell us. Portuguese reporting suggests it closes
437
00:24:43.269 --> 00:24:46.200
without a clear result but what it seems to be
438
00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:50.769
pointing to is that they are this close they are
439
00:24:50.789 --> 00:24:54.910
you know a couple of evidential planks short of being
440
00:24:54.990 --> 00:24:57.730
able to walk across the.
441
00:24:57.670 --> 00:25:00.220
Bridge yeah but then again it has been 20 years
442
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:04.220
so it doesn't surprise me that there's no physical evidence there.
443
00:25:04.099 --> 00:25:06.880
So this is where the case is today and another
444
00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:10.640
place where it gets unusual so Christian Bruckner served a
445
00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:14.849
prison sentence for the rape of a 72-year-old American woman
446
00:25:15.390 --> 00:25:16.569
in Portugal.
447
00:25:17.130 --> 00:25:19.650
He did so in Germany, September of last year, 2025.
448
00:25:19.650 --> 00:25:23.289
He was released from prison, which just feels strange.
449
00:25:24.190 --> 00:25:25.190
He's now a free man.
450
00:25:25.210 --> 00:25:28.480
Isn't that strange to say out loud, though? He's subject
451
00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:33.759
to supervision, conditions, electronic ankle tag, regular check-ins with German authorities.
452
00:25:34.180 --> 00:25:35.660
And there's also talk of surveillance.
453
00:25:36.109 --> 00:25:38.430
Can I just say that I hear that a team
454
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of police officers are literally following him around.
455
00:25:41.980 --> 00:25:42.240
Yeah.
456
00:25:42.500 --> 00:25:44.859
It's just such a huge waste of resources.
457
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:47.660
Is that a waste of resources, though, if he's... Well, actually.
458
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Go on.
459
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:50.400
Sorry, maybe waste is the wrong word.
460
00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:50.680
Yeah.
461
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Because I think he's a very dangerous man, but a
462
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drain on resources, is what I should have said. Just
463
00:25:55.190 --> 00:25:58.170
man hours and money that I must cost indefinitely. Yeah.
464
00:25:58.910 --> 00:25:59.789
I would love... Do you know what?
465
00:25:59.930 --> 00:26:02.470
You probably wouldn't want to, but I would love you
466
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to meet him. Christian Bruckner, I would love you to
467
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be able to sort of look him in the whites
468
00:26:08.049 --> 00:26:10.369
of his eyes and try to figure out how likely
469
00:26:10.430 --> 00:26:12.970
is someone like that to re-offend? And I say that
470
00:26:13.029 --> 00:26:15.460
now because the context has changed slightly, hasn't it?
471
00:26:15.849 --> 00:26:18.230
Insofar as there is now global.
472
00:26:17.710 --> 00:26:21.569
Attention on him. He's no longer sort of, you know,
473
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sort of ghoulishly Gollum-like sort of, you know, scrabbling along
474
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:28.799
in the shadows. He's fully out in the open. How
475
00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:32.660
likely is someone like that? Will the compulsion overcome the rational.
476
00:26:33.490 --> 00:26:34.329
I.
477
00:26:34.190 --> 00:26:36.809
Think the very fact that he's got such a litany
478
00:26:36.970 --> 00:26:40.650
of offenses, even social offenses, shows that in his makeup,
479
00:26:41.190 --> 00:26:44.410
in his impulsivity, in his personality, he absolutely is at
480
00:26:44.470 --> 00:26:48.869
high risk of reoffending. But he's also, like most people,
481
00:26:49.069 --> 00:26:51.869
would want to avoid jail. He's probably sensible enough to
482
00:26:51.930 --> 00:26:53.450
know that if the police are looking at him very,
483
00:26:53.490 --> 00:26:57.880
very carefully, he'd either not reoffend or only reoffend in
484
00:26:58.099 --> 00:27:00.559
what he perceives to be very low risk situations.
485
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:01.119
Yeah.
486
00:27:01.660 --> 00:27:03.400
So anyway, he's absolutely sure that he's not being watched.
487
00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:05.450
He can get away with it. I think he would
488
00:27:05.490 --> 00:27:07.009
have a strong compulsion for doing that.
489
00:27:07.109 --> 00:27:08.769
That's so interesting.
490
00:27:08.910 --> 00:27:13.509
And that completely contradicts how I would have thought of
491
00:27:13.569 --> 00:27:15.309
someone like him. I would have thought he would have
492
00:27:15.869 --> 00:27:22.519
been utterly disassociated from rational thinking, from logic, from knowing
493
00:27:22.579 --> 00:27:25.640
right or wrong, from being able to assess things. the
494
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:28.380
relative risks of going to jail, don't want to do that.
495
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.599
I would have thought he would have been just possessed
496
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:33.180
by a compulsion to do these types of things. But
497
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:37.039
is he able to compartmentalize people like him that you've
498
00:27:37.380 --> 00:27:40.000
sort of profiled or worked with in the past? Are
499
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:42.740
they able to compartmentalize? Part of them is rational.
500
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:43.359
Yeah.
501
00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:46.940
Sort of everyday Joe and then there's that side.
502
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:52.549
I think that despite their inner darkest fantasies and sexual deviancies.
503
00:27:52.849 --> 00:27:57.160
Most people are rational in their decision-making. So what I'm
504
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:00.960
saying is, is that most people who have been heavily
505
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:05.059
supervised won't offend again, just to emphasize, not because they've
506
00:28:05.140 --> 00:28:07.660
developed empathy with people, but just because they won't take
507
00:28:07.700 --> 00:28:08.650
the risk of going back to prison.
508
00:28:08.890 --> 00:28:12.710
So they've assessed the risk and they can take control
509
00:28:12.750 --> 00:28:14.890
of that compulsion, even though it's strong and it's there.
510
00:28:15.410 --> 00:28:15.829
Most people.
511
00:28:16.009 --> 00:28:22.759
Yeah. So UK police have confirmed, he's refused outright to
512
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:28.170
answer their questions. So he is being silent. If he
513
00:28:28.230 --> 00:28:30.490
was involved, and let's imagine for a second that he
514
00:28:30.529 --> 00:28:35.829
was the person that did abduct Madeleine McCann, what type
515
00:28:35.869 --> 00:28:38.339
of psychological makeup would you need to have to keep
516
00:28:38.410 --> 00:28:43.160
a secret? That gargantuan-like, that huge secret.
517
00:28:43.420 --> 00:28:44.980
And I'm sure there are many people in the world
518
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.839
that do keep dark secrets just as dark as that. So,
519
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:50.319
I mean, obvious thing to say is a callousness and
520
00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:52.680
a lack of empathy that goes without saying to actually
521
00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:54.940
have committed that crime in the first place. I think
522
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:59.339
there's also an inflated sense of self. So narcissism is
523
00:28:59.380 --> 00:29:01.980
what I'm talking about, to believe that they're above the law.
524
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:08.599
And also you mentioned this word compartmentalization. So that is
525
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:11.920
the ability to separate different aspects of your life. So
526
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:15.039
some people that have committed horrific crimes can still in
527
00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.309
their mind be function in other ways. Like they could
528
00:29:18.450 --> 00:29:22.160
have families. I'm not saying Christian Buckner does, but they
529
00:29:22.180 --> 00:29:25.299
can have families. They can be, you know, loving parents.
530
00:29:25.339 --> 00:29:28.279
They can be good at their job. So they have
531
00:29:28.299 --> 00:29:31.039
like a cognitive wall between their horrific secrets and the
532
00:29:31.099 --> 00:29:33.509
rest of their functioning. And they can see themselves as
533
00:29:33.630 --> 00:29:37.369
productive members of society. And this comes back to cognitive dissonance,
534
00:29:37.430 --> 00:29:40.740
which is when you hold different values in your mind
535
00:29:40.779 --> 00:29:42.980
and you also, you always lie to yourself. It's like
536
00:29:43.019 --> 00:29:45.559
a form of denial to allow you to get over
537
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:47.049
that psychological bump.
538
00:29:47.349 --> 00:29:47.529
Yeah.
539
00:29:47.609 --> 00:29:50.849
For example, there might be victim dehumanization. So even though
540
00:29:50.869 --> 00:29:53.529
they've done something horrific, like rake or kill somebody in
541
00:29:53.569 --> 00:29:56.250
their mind, they try to minimize it to excuse themselves.
542
00:29:57.309 --> 00:29:59.430
So if something like me or you does something that,
543
00:30:00.259 --> 00:30:03.539
horrendous let's imagine a hypothetical where you know we do
544
00:30:03.579 --> 00:30:05.480
that i'm not for a second suggesting we're perfect or
545
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:10.609
flawless we certainly are not but can someone feel joy
546
00:30:11.210 --> 00:30:15.069
or happiness ever again after committing an act like that
547
00:30:15.109 --> 00:30:19.829
can they compartmentalize their mind their psychology to such an
548
00:30:19.910 --> 00:30:21.849
extent they can have a laugh with their mates down
549
00:30:21.869 --> 00:30:25.579
the pub like that's that's bizarre they might have uh
550
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:28.769
I wouldn't even call it remorse or guilt, but they
551
00:30:28.809 --> 00:30:31.329
might have a paranoia of being caught in the back
552
00:30:31.349 --> 00:30:34.230
of their mind. But over time, the longer that they
553
00:30:34.250 --> 00:30:37.410
go without there being any legal consequences and without being caught,
554
00:30:37.490 --> 00:30:40.029
the more able they are to live a normal life
555
00:30:40.109 --> 00:30:42.279
and have happy, joyful experiences.
556
00:30:42.500 --> 00:30:46.599
Have you come across, though, in your time doing what
557
00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:49.779
you do, have you come across a monster? Have you
558
00:30:49.859 --> 00:30:54.859
come across someone that is just... And I hesitate to
559
00:30:54.940 --> 00:30:56.160
use the word because I think you're going to say
560
00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.440
to me, it's more complicated than that, Paul. So don't
561
00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:02.200
say that. But have you met a monster? Have you
562
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:04.519
met someone that is just evil, bad to the bone?
563
00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:08.150
Well, it's more complicated than that. Thank you. I've definitely
564
00:31:08.269 --> 00:31:13.230
met people who serially offend and do not show any remorse.
565
00:31:13.849 --> 00:31:17.359
So I wouldn't We don't use the term evil or
566
00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:20.180
monster in psychiatry, but that's the closest that I would
567
00:31:20.220 --> 00:31:22.440
connect it to. Somebody who doesn't learn from their mistakes,
568
00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:24.700
who just shows absolutely no empathy or regret for their
569
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:28.720
victims whatsoever and just thinks about themselves selfishly. Absolutely. It's
570
00:31:28.740 --> 00:31:33.509
a personality disorder. Antisocial personality disorder is connected with lack
571
00:31:33.549 --> 00:31:34.329
of regret and remorse.
572
00:31:34.630 --> 00:31:36.549
Do they tend to have any redeeming qualities?
573
00:31:36.750 --> 00:31:40.869
So if Christian Bruckner is responsible for the abduction of
574
00:31:40.930 --> 00:31:44.589
Madeleine McCann, all of the horrors that follow in that
575
00:31:44.630 --> 00:31:47.420
train of thinking, would you expect if you sat down
576
00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:49.940
and met him to find some redeeming qualities?
577
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:51.710
I mean, I don't know about him personally, but I've
578
00:31:51.730 --> 00:31:55.670
definitely assessed numerous people who have done horrific things. Yeah.
579
00:31:55.890 --> 00:31:59.130
Can actually be quite pleasant, can have a sense of humor.
580
00:31:59.349 --> 00:31:59.750
Yeah.
581
00:31:59.829 --> 00:32:00.230
Charming.
582
00:32:00.269 --> 00:32:00.450
Yeah.
583
00:32:01.170 --> 00:32:03.259
So as a final kind of thought, what do you
584
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:07.119
think is like the consequences, the hangover of the Madeleine
585
00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:09.319
McCann case? How has it changed public perception?
586
00:32:10.220 --> 00:32:13.799
That's, that's, that, that's, yeah, that's so interesting. I think it's,
587
00:32:14.869 --> 00:32:18.470
I think it's changed the way that these cases are
588
00:32:19.019 --> 00:32:22.519
reported upon. You mentioned earlier something really interesting that was
589
00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:27.059
because of who Madeleine McCann was, her background, even what
590
00:32:27.099 --> 00:32:29.240
she looked like. It's not an unusual thing to say
591
00:32:29.259 --> 00:32:34.000
about a child. But that whole case tapped into the
592
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.109
greatest fear of the middle to upper class across the world,
593
00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:41.309
which is that could never happen to us. That happens
594
00:32:41.349 --> 00:32:44.480
to other people. That happens to people less privileged than us.
595
00:32:45.299 --> 00:32:50.180
So I think all across the responsible media, let's say
596
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:54.740
those that hold the truth as more important than the rest,
597
00:32:55.500 --> 00:32:59.160
I think we have become extremely conscious of that idea.
598
00:33:00.109 --> 00:33:03.250
But also I think it's just affected people on the
599
00:33:03.289 --> 00:33:06.789
ground day to day. It's affected how I parent. And
600
00:33:07.049 --> 00:33:10.410
it's made me much more conscious of the idea that
601
00:33:10.529 --> 00:33:13.640
this kind of thing can happen. I don't know about you,
602
00:33:13.690 --> 00:33:16.240
I'm a proper cotton wool dad. Like anytime I see
603
00:33:16.289 --> 00:33:20.890
them even nearly falling, I'm losing my mind. I'd probably say,
604
00:33:20.910 --> 00:33:24.430
be careful more than any other word to my kids.
605
00:33:24.849 --> 00:33:27.910
And I do wonder, is that because of the work
606
00:33:28.089 --> 00:33:29.630
that I've done and the work that you do?
607
00:33:29.650 --> 00:33:31.220
I wonder what you're like, you know.
608
00:33:31.299 --> 00:33:33.980
As a dad because of that. Because I have seen
609
00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:37.380
things that I would not want anybody else to see
610
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:40.359
because I know the realities of where these things can go.
611
00:33:40.380 --> 00:33:43.470
I think I know too much and that's affected my parenting.
612
00:33:43.490 --> 00:33:45.210
I think a lot of people's parenting, whatever one of them.
613
00:33:45.029 --> 00:33:47.269
Is, So I think I'm the opposite of a cotton
614
00:33:47.289 --> 00:33:49.869
wool dad, but I do think like a lot of people,
615
00:33:49.890 --> 00:33:53.130
the Madeleine McCann case, it's not changed the way I parent,
616
00:33:53.259 --> 00:33:56.880
but it is a tangible thought or memory of what
617
00:33:56.920 --> 00:33:58.319
can happen when things go wrong.
618
00:33:58.460 --> 00:33:58.779
Yeah.
619
00:33:59.619 --> 00:33:59.819
Yeah.
620
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:01.559
What would you want to know now if you were
621
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:03.839
tapping into this case for the first time? You'd want
622
00:34:03.859 --> 00:34:07.740
to know where he is, wouldn't you? So released in
623
00:34:07.779 --> 00:34:13.090
September of 2025 under surveillance, as you were saying earlier,
624
00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:18.119
but he pops up in his hometown, right? Locals, as
625
00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:21.840
you would do, go, you know, absolutely haywire about this.
626
00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:26.300
And he is ultimately moved on. So at the moment,
627
00:34:26.739 --> 00:34:29.429
and this is, I don't want to be sensationalist, but
628
00:34:29.449 --> 00:34:33.969
this is a slightly terrifying prospect, that, you know, Christian Bruckner,
629
00:34:34.349 --> 00:34:38.329
who may, certainly in the view of German police, and
630
00:34:38.349 --> 00:34:41.489
if we are following And logical thread of this investigation
631
00:34:41.699 --> 00:34:44.980
is certainly the prime suspect when it comes to Madeleine
632
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.360
McCann's abduction, disappearance.
633
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:48.940
And whatever may have happened afterwards.
634
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:53.780
He is now just sort of roaming across Germany. A
635
00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:59.420
relatively free man. No fixed abode. That scares me. Does
636
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:00.079
that scare you?
637
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:00.599
Absolutely.
638
00:35:00.619 --> 00:35:01.119
It's terrifying.
639
00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:06.340
Thanks so much for listening to this True Crime Dissected.
640
00:35:06.699 --> 00:35:08.889
And if you enjoyed the episode, Make sure to follow
641
00:35:08.909 --> 00:35:12.400
the show and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts.
642
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:15.340
We'll be back very soon with another case.