#06 Alan Chen

WEBVTT
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Hi, Alan. Hello. Welcome to Think Visual with
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Shapeshifters. The tables have turned today.
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You are the interviewee. This is all strangely
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familiar. Yes, yes. I should be wearing that
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T -shirt. Damn it. What is this? I specifically
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asked you not to so that there's a bit of differentiation
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today because usually you're the host for the
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first few ones you've been the host. Yes, but
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I think it also puts you in the mindset of you're
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not the one asking questions today. We'll see
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about that. Okay, are we going to include all
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of that? Quite possibly. Why not? Maybe, yeah.
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okay um give people a glimpse into what's actually
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going on behind the scenes yeah we all we seem
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all friendly and nice and happy and actually
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we're crazy crazy it's a bit of a play yes um
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okay well can you please start by telling us
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a little bit about your origin story i think
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everyone knows you because you're the face of
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think visual We do the meetups. We bring other
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speakers. We've been doing this podcast series.
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But I think people are always curious about you
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and they can see the incredible talent and superpower
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that you have. And I think it would be great
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to give them a little bit of a glimpse of where
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that comes from. Okay. A little bit of context.
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Okay. Where do I begin? I think... Well, for
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me, I would say it genuinely begins in my childhood
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because I've kind of always known that I'm a
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visual person, always. So I recognized early
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on that I... I guess I kind of think differently.
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I recall probably some of my earliest memories
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of my teachers thinking that something was wrong
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with me. So I was schooled in the 80s. And even
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in kindergarten, I remember my teachers, well,
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my teacher in particular, she constantly told
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me to stop drawing. And I guess, you know, in
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kindy, I don't exactly possess the words to explain
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that. I'm not just drawing anything and that
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some part of what I was doing was probably connected
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to what was going on. So I kind of always knew
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that I am a visual person. And as I started to
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grow up, I think it became a bit more of a conscious
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act slowly through school. And it was kind of
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hard going at the time because, again, it was
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being schooled in the 80s. Seeing somebody approach
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work in an illustrative manner was a little bit
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weird for my teachers, and some took it better
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than others. Some people encouraged me and said,
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this is great, I can see that this is... I think
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in year one, my teacher, she was instrumental
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to me. following the path of using visual thinking
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and I think she could see then clearly that there
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was a some kind of connection in my drawings
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it wasn't just random doodles and even though
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there was a lot of random doodles there was a
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lot but not all of it was random so I mean I
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draw you know superheroes werewolves monsters
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of all kinds dinosaurs but there was also parts
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of the page that were dedicated to what was being
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said and what was happening so yeah i was going
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to ask about that because when you say i'm a
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visual person especially as a kid like i think
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we all say we're visual or a lot of people say
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they're visual people um and also almost all
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kids draw and doodle all the time so what what
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made you actually different like was there anything
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that you felt was different definitely i think
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um the way i describe it is that when people
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would speak i would immediately get very detailed
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crisp images in my mind of what it is they were
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talking about so i think an example would be
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if someone said the word dog I wouldn't just
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get a picture of any random dog. I would get
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all the pictures of all the dogs that I'd ever
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seen. And they all start to kind of cram my head
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full of things. And I think that was very hard
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to initially process. And it made things like
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spelling slow for me. So it's not that I was
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dyslexic. And some of the teachers were like,
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oh, Alan's learning progress is rather slow in
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this. But then other teachers were saying there's
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a bit of a contrast because they can see that
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I have some initial problems with dictation,
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that exercise where the teachers are kind of
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speaking out the words and I'm trying to spell
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it out. I struggled immensely with that. But
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then again, I was reading Narnia when I was seven
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or eight years old and no problem reading through
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any of those books. I loved reading those books
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because my mind would create this rich imagery,
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three -dimensional worlds that I could actually
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see and experience. So I guess that was a little
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bit different. I could see everything that was
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being said to me. with no delay like it would
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instantly occur and it would be kind of confusing
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because i didn't know exactly what i was supposed
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to do with it and i i thought that everyone thought
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the same way and in fact actually i think that
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i believe that everyone also i believe that everyone
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thinks the same way up until recently i remember
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we were chatting and i was like you see see it
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like that right and you're saying no you don't
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see it see that things that way so no um Yeah,
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so it's kind of like rich imagery that's in my
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mind and it took purposeful consideration and
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training and encouragement for me to know that,
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okay, I don't need everything. I just need one
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image or two. Wow. That must have taken a lot
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of practice and training. Yeah, it took me all
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of primary school, all of high school. to get
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it right. And even throughout high school, I
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didn't get it right. It was still kind of sporadic
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bursts. There was a bit more structure, you know.
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But then when I went to fine arts school, studied
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fine arts at Sydney College of the Arts for a
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year, largely what we were doing was creating
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visual things. And it was helpful, but... I think
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my mind was seeking more structure. And then
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when I heard about Enmore School of Design, and
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I went there, the things that they were teaching
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me about composition, about layout, how to use
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typography, how to use color, and it just instantly
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made sense to me. I said, oh, this is what I've
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been missing. It's like suddenly somebody gave
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me a toolkit and said, these are some of the
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tools that you need. And all of the crazy stuff
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that goes on in your mind, can be made a little
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easier to manage or can be tempered if you use
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these tools. And then from there, it became so
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much smoother for me. I was like, oh, there's
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this thing called page layouts. And I can now
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figure out where to place things on a page. And
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then when I eventually went to the film school
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to study, it seemed like everything flowed even
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more smoothly because there they were specifically
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looking at visual storytelling. So, you know,
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as a filmmaker, you are trained to look for and
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craft imagery that usually conveys highly complex
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story, concepts, emotions. You know, if you take
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any great film and you analyze them frame by
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frame, you can see so much information packed
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into one moment, into one second. There's just
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so many things happening. And film school really
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helped me then kind of put it all together in
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a way that was very, I guess, palatable in a
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way and accessible. More people could understand
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what I was talking about. That's amazing. Actually,
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you're talking about a, type of neurodivergence
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right we recently we've been talking a little
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bit more recently about aphantasia and hyperphantasia
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and all that you've described in your experience
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it's a type of neurodivergence is that correct
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and yeah let's talk a little bit about that yeah
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so um i i've known about aphantasia for a good
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many years actually now it's probably probably
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um probably since the days of design college
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where you and I were starting to work together
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I first came across it then this would have been
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20 around the 2014 -2015 period so I've I think
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I came across it then and I'd never I'd never
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given that any thought before like I just assumed
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that everybody could see things the way I was
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seeing things and then when I heard that there
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was this condition where People did not have
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the ability to see with their mind's eye. I was
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really surprised. I went, wow, there's different
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ways. And I guess it should have been obvious
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to me all this time because, of course, we don't
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all think alike. Thinking is a deeply personal
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activity, right? And especially it was your experience
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in school. Oh, yeah. Because you were thinking
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basically different than all the other kids.
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I think I just... thought that I was something
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was wrong as a kid or you know that maybe maybe
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I was struggling I don't know I just learned
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in a way that was inefficient perhaps and when
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I found out about aphantasia was kind of interesting
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but aphantasia kind of opened my eyes because
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I was like wow there's this way of thinking that
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is so opposite of what I'm seeing and actually
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only in recent years did I find out about hyperphantasia
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like in the last two years and I thought what's
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this and when I read about hyperphantasia something
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suddenly clicked I suddenly realized that oh
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I think this is the thing that I've been experiencing
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my whole life which is you know where you get
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very rich imagery in your head so rich sometimes
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that it looks like it's right there um yeah so
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it was it was kind of weird and i i um as i said
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i only recently found out about it but um hyperphantasia
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is an aphantasia are two ends of a spectrum of
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let's call it visual thinking, right? So one
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end you get the most extreme vivid visualizations.
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The other end you get nothing at all. And so
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I'm on this, I don't know, I'm sure within hyperphantasia
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there's other extremes, but I'm on the hyperphantasia
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side of things as in. I get rich imagery. It's
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also context and subject specific. So some things
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give me more, some things give me less. It depends
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on familiarity. But yeah, it's an interesting
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neurodiverse way of thinking. It's not a disability.
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It's just a neurodiverse way of thinking. It's
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literally different ways of mental processing.
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Yeah, and when you were talking about you thought
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at school that something was wrong with you,
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it's actually more that the system, something
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was wrong with the system because it's just designed
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for one type of learner. Yeah. And so, yeah,
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that's unfortunate, but it sounds like you found
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different ways to thrive and you had the right
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support. Yeah, yeah, I definitely did. I've had
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good voices. My parents were both teachers and
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they... I guess they knew that I wasn't dumb.
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They used to always say to me, hey, look, if
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you learn differently, you've got to find the
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way you learn and then learn that way and then
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work that way. You can't just stay neutral and
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accept things the way they are. Be active. And
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I guess those words, my mom and dad's words always
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stayed in my head, be active. Seek for what it
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is that appeals to you, that helps you. And that
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makes a lot of sense. I mean, we're always talking
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about superpowers, and you've got to find what's
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your strength and then just leverage that. So
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you studied filmmaking, and then how did you
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get here? I guess through strange and... unexpected
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means i i think um the filmmaking side of things
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is um a bit more direct in a way like okay so
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if you if you follow my trajectory drawing all
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through school then in uni doing fine arts for
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a year pretty predictable right then going to
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do graphic design and studying visual design
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super helpful uh because it was like mastery
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of elements then from studying graphic design
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to doing filmmaking which was like a the one
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visual craft that includes all other visual crafts
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right because you're using spatial you're using
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you're using light you're using so many different
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elements as well as 2d things yeah but from film
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school I spent most of my creative career in
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filmmaking probably 12 years of my creative career
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as an independent filmmaker I've worked on commercials
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I worked on feature films music videos lots and
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lots of different things just ads and fun creative
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stuff and all kinds of things but One thing that
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was interesting is that all throughout my creative
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career, I was also teaching. I came across this
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ad years and years ago, which was to teach at
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a... a small design college, and it was to teach
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the things that I know really well, which is
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filmmaking and illustration and visual design.
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I was like, I know this quite well. I can definitely
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do this. And they were after somebody who had
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industry experience. Back then it was Raffles
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KVB. And I went to teach there and I had a great
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relationship with the people who were coordinating
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the courses and the program directors. And I
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guess they liked some of the stuff that I was
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doing there. And all through that time there
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was this nice tension between what I know to
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do intrinsically And then how to explain it to
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others in a way that is repeatable. And I got
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lots of practice doing that. And it was towards
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the apex of that time that I got the opportunity
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to lead a design college. And that's when I got
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to work with you. And, you know, that was a lot
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of fun. We had two good years together and taught
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lots of, you know, great students and build and
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design courses that we were very proud of. And
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then when that part, when that kind of chapter
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came to a close, I had this complete, almost
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like a complete blank canvas of going anywhere.
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As I said, the closing period of that time, I
00:17:44.819 --> 00:17:47.980
was introduced into design consulting through
00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:55.200
you. I met people at Tobias. And then the time
00:17:55.200 --> 00:18:00.759
at Tobias that I spent, I was focusing on strategic
00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:04.180
design consulting through the lens of a visual
00:18:04.180 --> 00:18:07.299
communication practitioner. And I got to utilize
00:18:07.299 --> 00:18:12.319
my... filmmaking skills. I could utilize my live
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.099
drawing skills, which I had honed, weirdly enough,
00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:17.400
through teaching others. I mean, I guess it's
00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:22.740
kind of predictable in a way, because when we're
00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:24.940
teaching illustration, I have to annotate and
00:18:24.940 --> 00:18:27.180
illustrate what it is that I'm talking about.
00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:29.339
So I would always find myself drawing concepts.
00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:32.269
And the live drawing part was... part and parcel
00:18:32.269 --> 00:18:34.230
with the teaching and teaching I spent a long
00:18:34.230 --> 00:18:38.210
time doing. So at Tobias, I did the teaching
00:18:38.210 --> 00:18:43.349
bit. I did the filmmaking bit. I got to exercise
00:18:43.349 --> 00:18:47.329
my design mind on many different projects to
00:18:47.329 --> 00:18:51.250
think about things in different ways. And it
00:18:51.250 --> 00:18:57.210
was at the end of that time that I realized that
00:18:57.210 --> 00:19:00.880
this was something that I could that i could
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.619
offer this it was like the sum total of all the
00:19:03.619 --> 00:19:06.480
things that i'd ever worked on had now given
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:11.799
me um a unique opportunity to be able to help
00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:18.059
organizations and people in a in a way that is
00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:22.079
unlike anything else and that's that's um that's
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.240
i guess how we um started shape shifters i mean
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.500
technically we started shape shifters while we
00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:33.700
were actually teaching together but you know
00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:35.960
to help people in this way that we're doing now
00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:39.299
I think it's it came towards the end of my time
00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:41.779
consulting came towards the end of your time
00:19:41.779 --> 00:19:47.660
as a visual communication lead you know at the
00:19:47.660 --> 00:19:49.720
college that you were teaching at and it was
00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:53.200
like the the sum total of okay apply all this
00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.690
educational knowledge that we have all this consulting
00:19:57.690 --> 00:20:02.130
and all this crazy creative industry stuff. And
00:20:02.130 --> 00:20:06.210
we can help people in ways that are truly unique
00:20:06.210 --> 00:20:09.049
and innovative. Yeah, that's how I got here.
00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:11.650
I have to say, Alan, every time I've heard this,
00:20:11.789 --> 00:20:14.369
I've heard your journey and your story so many
00:20:14.369 --> 00:20:16.549
times. And every time I listen to it, it's just
00:20:16.549 --> 00:20:23.529
very inspiring. And I'm in awe because it's just
00:20:23.529 --> 00:20:27.210
so rich. you can you can really tell that all
00:20:27.210 --> 00:20:31.329
of that like every single part of um your journey
00:20:31.329 --> 00:20:34.369
led to this like it was it kind of formed you
00:20:34.369 --> 00:20:37.250
bit by bit yeah formed your thinking formed your
00:20:37.250 --> 00:20:40.809
approach and now what we do today at shapeshifters
00:20:40.809 --> 00:20:43.829
it feels like it's it's really the culmination
00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:47.990
of all of it and i feel like a lot of our a lot
00:20:47.990 --> 00:20:51.569
of our work stands out because because of the
00:20:51.569 --> 00:20:54.490
combination of that history that you have you
00:20:54.859 --> 00:20:59.500
I think also if I am to describe you in one word,
00:20:59.619 --> 00:21:02.279
it would be storyteller. It wouldn't be illustrator.
00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:06.180
It would be more storyteller. And it's because
00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:08.579
no matter what medium, even when you're telling
00:21:08.579 --> 00:21:14.960
a story, just by words, it's very rich in imagery,
00:21:15.180 --> 00:21:21.220
in emotion. You're just a very good storyteller.
00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.190
And when you combine that with your visual, skills
00:21:25.190 --> 00:21:32.890
it's very powerful and i guess i guess what i
00:21:32.890 --> 00:21:39.730
want to know is based on all of like all of your
00:21:39.730 --> 00:21:44.009
that crazy visual journey that you went through
00:21:44.009 --> 00:21:47.430
to really understand who you are as a as a visual
00:21:47.430 --> 00:21:52.950
thinker how do how do you use it today and how
00:21:52.950 --> 00:21:58.299
does what we do at Shapeshifters really reflect
00:21:58.299 --> 00:22:03.559
that. That's a great question. How I use visual
00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:09.799
thinking today is evolved, has definitely evolved
00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:13.559
a lot, a lot over time. I think I've become comfortable
00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:21.119
with knowing that my way of thinking can be of
00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:30.099
great benefit. So I think if you see me drawing,
00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:34.960
I'm thinking, and I'm kind of drawing all the
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:39.339
time. So in conversations, at conferences, for
00:22:39.339 --> 00:22:44.660
myself, for other people, it's reflexive. So
00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:48.640
I guess the way I use it now is more purposeful.
00:22:53.069 --> 00:22:59.470
I need it myself. I don't often draw, I think,
00:22:59.490 --> 00:23:02.130
because I want to show others. My sketchbooks
00:23:02.130 --> 00:23:06.230
and my iPad, it's just littered with sketches
00:23:06.230 --> 00:23:11.410
because it's just how I think. I need to get
00:23:11.410 --> 00:23:15.450
the ideas from my mind out so that I can see
00:23:15.450 --> 00:23:19.849
and understand what it is that's kind of going
00:23:19.849 --> 00:23:22.339
on. I can process my thoughts. It's like a Part
00:23:22.339 --> 00:23:26.700
of my thinking must happen externally. You also
00:23:26.700 --> 00:23:33.140
mentioned that it's not as appealing and amazing
00:23:33.140 --> 00:23:37.380
as it sounds. Yeah, look, I mean, hyperphantasia,
00:23:37.460 --> 00:23:42.259
I think, with any extremes, there are benefits
00:23:42.259 --> 00:23:46.079
and then there are challenges. I think the benefits
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:50.880
are... I feel like there's basically nothing
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.480
that I hear that doesn't produce visuals in my
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:57.420
mind. There's always visuals. And the richness
00:23:57.420 --> 00:24:01.319
or the lack of richness is dependent on the context
00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:04.119
and emotional state and lots of other things
00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:10.519
too. But I always have visuals. The challenges
00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:15.019
are trying to manage what goes on in my mind
00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:20.190
and also You know, there are certain things that
00:24:20.190 --> 00:24:26.130
are harder for me to, I guess, let go of in some
00:24:26.130 --> 00:24:32.250
way. So extremely emotional moments, traumas,
00:24:32.250 --> 00:24:35.569
they're very vivid in my mind. I can hear the
00:24:35.569 --> 00:24:39.809
sounds and I can see so richly. It's kind of,
00:24:39.809 --> 00:24:43.190
you know, in some ways it's kind of hard to shake
00:24:43.190 --> 00:24:50.490
off. active work so i can't just kind of let
00:24:50.490 --> 00:24:52.410
it be i actually have to think about it intentionally
00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:56.910
and find ways to process the the thoughts in
00:24:56.910 --> 00:25:00.109
my mind it's you know it's also like um i think
00:25:00.109 --> 00:25:02.390
i mentioned this to you before as a filmmaker
00:25:02.390 --> 00:25:05.829
um whenever i was thinking about stories and
00:25:05.829 --> 00:25:09.130
narratives um if i didn't start writing them
00:25:09.130 --> 00:25:14.390
out and if i didn't film them they would gnaw
00:25:14.390 --> 00:25:17.650
at my mind constantly, as in there's this constant
00:25:17.650 --> 00:25:21.309
pressure on my brain. It was like if they didn't
00:25:21.309 --> 00:25:24.069
come out on paper or on film, they would eat
00:25:24.069 --> 00:25:27.470
me up alive in some way. So sometimes it can
00:25:27.470 --> 00:25:32.069
be overwhelming. But I guess that's what it kind
00:25:32.069 --> 00:25:34.369
of comes with the territory of being able to
00:25:34.369 --> 00:25:39.569
see things with extreme vividness. I mean, the
00:25:39.569 --> 00:25:42.470
benefits are I can kind of prototype anything.
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:46.200
on the spot, like really, really quickly. But
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:50.140
the downsides are sometimes it's too much. So
00:25:50.140 --> 00:25:53.359
I guess over the years, I've just learned to
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:56.519
kind of balance that. But it does make our work
00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:58.940
at ShapeShift is really different because you
00:25:58.940 --> 00:26:01.680
process things visually too, slightly different
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:07.019
than me. And I think that the different ways
00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:11.539
that we do that makes our work really special
00:26:11.539 --> 00:26:17.920
because When people work with us, there's a lot
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:20.539
of transparency. It's open. You can see what's
00:26:20.539 --> 00:26:24.420
going on. I'm not hiding behind screens. You
00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:27.279
are literally seeing my thoughts and your conversation
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:33.440
meld together in front of your eyes with nothing
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:39.500
to hide. It builds trust. It builds connection
00:26:39.500 --> 00:26:44.329
with people. It also saves time. You're referring
00:26:44.329 --> 00:26:47.410
to the co -design approach that we use where
00:26:47.410 --> 00:26:51.549
we're basically live sketching, or you're usually
00:26:51.549 --> 00:26:56.750
live sketching, I'm talking, with clients so
00:26:56.750 --> 00:26:59.809
that we can get to the results quicker. I think
00:26:59.809 --> 00:27:04.130
so. I mean, one thing that I'd love people to
00:27:04.130 --> 00:27:06.930
know is that it can work both ways. I can do
00:27:06.930 --> 00:27:08.910
the question asking and you can do the sketching.
00:27:09.869 --> 00:27:13.210
I think the reason we kind of typically go with
00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:17.329
that is it's the lowest point of resistance.
00:27:17.509 --> 00:27:19.829
It's quite easy. You're very inquisitive and
00:27:19.829 --> 00:27:22.230
you love to ask questions. And I'm very illustrative
00:27:22.230 --> 00:27:26.450
because I think that way. So it's very natural
00:27:26.450 --> 00:27:29.630
that we just go, okay, default is that. But we
00:27:29.630 --> 00:27:33.190
can comfortably swap. So yes, I'm thinking about
00:27:33.190 --> 00:27:36.430
the co -design, but I'm also thinking about whenever
00:27:36.430 --> 00:27:40.130
we communicate and work with people, even if
00:27:40.130 --> 00:27:42.589
it's not during a co -design session, the visuals
00:27:42.589 --> 00:27:48.690
that we're creating, they're an extension of
00:27:48.690 --> 00:27:50.970
the conversations and the trust that we've built.
00:27:51.769 --> 00:27:53.710
Rarely do I feel like there's any surprises.
00:27:54.569 --> 00:27:58.970
It's not that people aren't surprised with...
00:27:59.049 --> 00:28:02.829
the things it's more like they did not see something
00:28:02.829 --> 00:28:06.509
that they didn't um help or have a hand in creating
00:28:06.509 --> 00:28:08.869
yeah it's they're we're literally bringing them
00:28:08.869 --> 00:28:10.490
along on the journey because they can see the
00:28:10.490 --> 00:28:13.789
very very roughest sketch but it's actually their
00:28:13.789 --> 00:28:19.049
ideas coming on paper so it's very personal for
00:28:19.049 --> 00:28:21.869
them so they they're they're right there from
00:28:21.869 --> 00:28:24.490
the beginning and i think the the the finesse
00:28:24.490 --> 00:28:31.000
the the finish that we we create it's It's a
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:36.640
nice thing that we bring because of the experience
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:42.420
that we have. But it's actually not as valuable
00:28:42.420 --> 00:28:45.460
as the part where we are actually able to bring
00:28:45.460 --> 00:28:48.759
people along together and do things together
00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:53.859
because it makes it so much more clear. I think
00:28:53.859 --> 00:28:57.509
clarity is the really important part. are clear
00:28:57.509 --> 00:29:00.349
about what it is that they're getting and what
00:29:00.349 --> 00:29:04.509
it is that they're designing because it's literally
00:29:04.509 --> 00:29:07.589
appearing right before their eyes and you and
00:29:07.589 --> 00:29:12.710
i have talked about this a lot um we because
00:29:12.710 --> 00:29:15.809
of our background in you know consulting and
00:29:15.809 --> 00:29:18.470
education and design like all of these different
00:29:18.470 --> 00:29:20.750
things and visual communication and storytelling
00:29:20.750 --> 00:29:25.490
we've talked about what what is it that we actually
00:29:25.490 --> 00:29:30.400
do Because it's not just visual thinking where
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:35.039
we just create images in real time. There's a
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:36.940
little bit more. And I'm talking about, obviously,
00:29:36.980 --> 00:29:38.920
the services that we offer at Shapeshifters.
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:43.519
Maybe really quickly, why do we call ourselves
00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:46.440
communication design? What we do is communication
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:50.779
design. And specifically, I suppose we've been
00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:52.900
angling a little bit towards strategic communication.
00:29:52.940 --> 00:29:57.019
And why do we call it that? So another good question.
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:02.319
If you can picture the iceberg diagram, where
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:05.519
there's the tip of the iceberg and everyone sees
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:11.240
the fact that we illustrate the fact that we're
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:14.579
visual thinkers, that's right at the very, very
00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:19.869
top. It's the things that are easily identifiable
00:30:19.869 --> 00:30:22.650
as us. I think the thing that goes underneath,
00:30:22.930 --> 00:30:25.509
the massiveness of what happens underneath is
00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:30.150
our rich understanding of design and the design
00:30:30.150 --> 00:30:35.089
process, our understanding that strategy is something
00:30:35.089 --> 00:30:39.230
that happens over a period of time. It's not
00:30:39.230 --> 00:30:45.240
something that... you know, is accidental or
00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:49.500
you hope works away. It's very intentional. And
00:30:49.500 --> 00:30:54.099
we know how to work intentionally towards things.
00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:56.799
So we understand strategy. We understand design.
00:30:57.500 --> 00:31:00.740
And the communication part of it, we understand
00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:04.480
that intimately well because that's our background.
00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:08.420
You know, we are great at all forms of communication.
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:13.539
So I think we can speak. Sure. We can create
00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:18.500
illustrations, definitely. But we also can craft
00:31:18.500 --> 00:31:22.660
beautiful videos. We can wireframe and prototype.
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:29.019
There's almost no way of, no form of communication
00:31:29.019 --> 00:31:32.940
that we are not well versed in. We also write
00:31:32.940 --> 00:31:36.940
copy for many of our clients as well. Because
00:31:36.940 --> 00:31:42.319
part of my background is writing as well. written
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:47.200
screenplays, worked as a script editor. It's
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:56.079
part and parcel with all of the creative industries
00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:58.240
that we've worked in, and we bring all of that
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:02.180
richness. I think between you and me together,
00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:08.309
there's over 30 years. like 35 almost 40 years
00:32:08.309 --> 00:32:11.269
worth of creative experience that we bring to
00:32:11.269 --> 00:32:16.730
a table and that's that's quite a lot that's
00:32:16.730 --> 00:32:22.789
quite unique not easily replicable yeah i was
00:32:22.789 --> 00:32:25.430
thinking is this starting to sound a bit too
00:32:25.430 --> 00:32:27.890
much like marketing marketing we're promoting
00:32:27.890 --> 00:32:30.849
what we do but really because i actually think
00:32:30.849 --> 00:32:34.420
that this is really worth talking about because
00:32:34.420 --> 00:32:38.160
not a lot of people really see the value of it
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:42.119
and people sometimes look at what we do or come
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:44.359
up to you at an event and are like wow how did
00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:47.759
you do that you know and it's true it's kind
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:49.759
of it's a little bit like magic what you create
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:53.819
at an event right there on the spot but the other
00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:56.019
part of it is when we're talking to a business
00:32:56.019 --> 00:32:59.259
or a team and then we hear the struggles they're
00:32:59.259 --> 00:33:03.599
they're having Usually a lot of times it's because
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:06.460
there's miscommunication and a lot of times we
00:33:06.460 --> 00:33:08.880
immediately can see that that miscommunication
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.920
can be resolved pretty easily through visual
00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:18.720
communication because it's the way that we communicate
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:23.680
intuitively with each other, but also it kind
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:27.619
of removes barriers, right? It simplifies. And
00:33:27.619 --> 00:33:29.819
now I'm starting to sound a bit like jargon.
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.940
It's no accident that it's visuals that we use.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:38.680
Because here's the thing. My words can easily
00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:41.740
be misconstrued. You can understand it one way.
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:44.319
Someone else can understand it a completely different
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:49.380
way. And that's because our relationship with
00:33:49.380 --> 00:33:53.359
words is different than our relationship with
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:56.990
imagery. With words... people can switch off,
00:33:57.089 --> 00:33:59.650
ignore, they can skip parts that they can often
00:33:59.650 --> 00:34:01.789
say, oh, I didn't hear that part. I didn't hear
00:34:01.789 --> 00:34:06.109
it like that. With images, we don't have any
00:34:06.109 --> 00:34:09.170
filters on our, you know, our eyes are actually
00:34:09.170 --> 00:34:12.829
the filters for our minds and they don't filter
00:34:12.829 --> 00:34:14.989
anything. They actually, so when we walk around,
00:34:15.030 --> 00:34:17.230
like we walk around with our eyes open and do
00:34:17.230 --> 00:34:22.489
our thing, we're taking in like billions and
00:34:22.489 --> 00:34:25.809
billions of bits of information. instantaneously
00:34:25.809 --> 00:34:29.489
without us even knowing. And so if you use visuals
00:34:29.489 --> 00:34:32.349
to communicate, you're already using something
00:34:32.349 --> 00:34:35.969
that can immediately cut through and get into
00:34:35.969 --> 00:34:41.090
the mind rapidly. But the other thing is we're
00:34:41.090 --> 00:34:44.829
using it in a way because we understand that
00:34:44.829 --> 00:34:49.469
the craft of visual communication allows us to
00:34:49.469 --> 00:34:55.079
make messages stand out and stick to the mind
00:34:55.079 --> 00:35:00.179
so they can be retained in your memory for much
00:35:00.179 --> 00:35:02.360
longer than, you know, if you said something,
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:07.840
it's so easy to forget. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:13.159
coming to almost the end of our conversation,
00:35:13.219 --> 00:35:15.880
but I wanted to ask you, you mentioned before,
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:20.639
let's call Fantasia and Hyperfantasia and Afantasia
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:26.260
the visual thinking kind of. Do you think that's
00:35:26.260 --> 00:35:29.500
actually the case, or is there a little bit of
00:35:29.500 --> 00:35:32.940
a differentiation? Because in my head, the minds
00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:35.440
are, and we know some people who have aphantasia
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:38.619
and are amazing sketchnoters and visual thinkers.
00:35:39.699 --> 00:35:43.099
What's the difference, and can someone grow in
00:35:43.099 --> 00:35:47.320
visual thinking even if they don't think as vividly
00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:53.610
as you do? Oh, yeah. Vivid as my mind is, if
00:35:53.610 --> 00:35:58.409
I sketch things down, I have a much better understanding
00:35:58.409 --> 00:36:00.869
than when I just leave it in my head. Even me.
00:36:00.889 --> 00:36:06.929
And I can see things quite vividly. So whether
00:36:06.929 --> 00:36:11.969
you have aphantasia or fantasia or hyperphantasia,
00:36:12.050 --> 00:36:17.889
you can hone your ability to think visually.
00:36:18.309 --> 00:36:24.980
If you apply it, in the physical sense. There's
00:36:24.980 --> 00:36:27.119
something very special that happens when you
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:33.119
pick up a pen and you write things and sketch
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:36.159
things out on a piece of paper. The paper itself
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.619
kind of speaks back to you. So there's this unique
00:36:38.619 --> 00:36:43.360
relationship that happens. And also the other
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:50.119
thing is the physical act of sketching activates
00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:52.420
different parts of the brain that do not become
00:36:52.420 --> 00:36:58.300
active. If you're typing things out, that part
00:36:58.300 --> 00:37:00.579
of the brain is not active. Specifically, it's
00:37:00.579 --> 00:37:03.000
called the parietal lobe. So when you're sketching,
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:07.039
the parietal lobe is activated, and it's the
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:09.159
language center of your mind. It's the cognition
00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:13.400
part of your mind. So you are enhancing your
00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:17.219
memory. allowing your brain to process things
00:37:17.219 --> 00:37:23.119
from more angles, and then creating a deeper
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:26.539
connection to the knowledge that you are absorbing
00:37:26.539 --> 00:37:30.199
and listening to. So anyone can get better. It
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:32.280
doesn't matter which part of the spectrum they
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:35.539
sit on. They can actually improve their visual
00:37:35.539 --> 00:37:38.360
thinking ability. It doesn't matter if you have
00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:41.280
hyperphantasia or aphantasia. You can definitely
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:45.519
improve, and I'm proof of that. I've got better
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:51.760
and better slowly over time. I would recommend
00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:56.960
it to everybody. Do you have any tips that you
00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:59.739
can give to someone who's never sketched before,
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:03.000
doesn't hold a pen, maybe only types on the computer?
00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:08.300
Start small. Start short. Don't spend too long
00:38:08.300 --> 00:38:12.219
on things. Even if you just doodle while you're
00:38:12.219 --> 00:38:15.679
on the phone for 30 seconds to one minute, it's
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:19.480
better than if you just put it off, put it off,
00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:21.440
and you're waiting for this, oh, I'm going to
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:23.679
wait for this creative time where I'm going to
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:25.800
start sketching and I'm going to work on my abilities.
00:38:26.019 --> 00:38:28.860
Don't do that. Just little bit by little bit.
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:31.619
Just do a little bit every day. And if you can
00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:35.780
squeeze in a tiny bit every single day, it has
00:38:35.780 --> 00:38:39.690
this compounding effect. You will build muscle
00:38:39.690 --> 00:38:43.469
memory. It's like, honestly, visual thinking
00:38:43.469 --> 00:38:50.570
is more so like driving and riding a bike than
00:38:50.570 --> 00:38:54.429
a really fine skill. It's more like a general
00:38:54.429 --> 00:39:01.829
skill that improves and is enhanced with little
00:39:01.829 --> 00:39:05.099
practice each day. Yeah, well, I mean, we talk
00:39:05.099 --> 00:39:07.500
about it as a visual language, right? Yeah. And
00:39:07.500 --> 00:39:10.760
the more you've got a grasp of that language,
00:39:10.860 --> 00:39:14.159
the more you can write and communicate with it.
00:39:14.340 --> 00:39:17.219
That's right. So you've got to use it or lose
00:39:17.219 --> 00:39:21.760
it. Okay, one last tip to someone who is a visual
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:26.260
thinker. They love to sketch and think on paper,
00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:29.960
but doesn't know where to take it from there.
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:33.960
And also is maybe busy. with work and things
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.099
like that how would they can they bring that
00:39:37.099 --> 00:39:40.739
in to their work or life yeah don't wait for
00:39:40.739 --> 00:39:43.840
permission if you're if you're somebody who already
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:48.179
has a bit of skill just do it and apply it wherever
00:39:48.179 --> 00:39:52.659
you are however you can so lowest common denominator
00:39:52.659 --> 00:39:56.920
don't you don't need there's no tool that is
00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:59.480
truly required other than a piece of paper and
00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:03.400
a pencil nothing fancier like The tools that
00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:06.840
you need, you can either obtain for free or cost
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:11.280
less than a dollar. So they're super cheap, super
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:17.420
accessible, and apply it anywhere, like in any
00:40:17.420 --> 00:40:20.139
context you can. I guess the other tips I would
00:40:20.139 --> 00:40:26.119
say is we have a pretty cool little course. You
00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:29.039
should go and do that. It's called Think Visual.
00:40:31.610 --> 00:40:34.170
That one's pretty comprehensive. It's like a
00:40:34.170 --> 00:40:36.989
great little way for people to start off their
00:40:36.989 --> 00:40:41.090
journey, but it's also good for people who already
00:40:41.090 --> 00:40:44.690
have some skills and just want to hone. So, yeah,
00:40:44.769 --> 00:40:48.239
I would say the bottom line is... just start
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:51.139
just apply it um apply it as soon as you can
00:40:51.139 --> 00:40:53.940
wherever you are i was also thinking come to
00:40:53.940 --> 00:40:56.460
our meetup because oh yeah you know everyone
00:40:56.460 --> 00:41:00.539
there is sketching no one is it's quite a safe
00:41:00.539 --> 00:41:03.900
place and we just have fun yeah yeah and you
00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:06.159
know imagine being in a room with 50 other people
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:11.400
or you know also who are all sketching and trying
00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:14.340
it out you'll feel encouraged because no one
00:41:14.340 --> 00:41:17.940
there is you know judging um how you look or
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:21.840
how it is that um the the how the visual is that
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:25.139
you've created in fact the opposite is true people
00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:28.300
are just you know really kind of bring you on
00:41:28.300 --> 00:41:30.400
board and if you want encouragement if you want
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:33.199
feedback if you want ideas if you want techniques
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:35.320
you just have to look over your shoulder and
00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:36.800
you'll see someone doing something interesting
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:40.360
in a way that you probably didn't expect i've
00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:43.320
been doing this with you diana for now a year
00:41:44.259 --> 00:41:47.039
And there's still ways that I see that surprise
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:50.659
me. So it's pretty cool. People should come along
00:41:50.659 --> 00:41:53.440
for sure. Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks, Alan.
00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:55.900
Where can people find you if they want to follow
00:41:55.900 --> 00:42:00.179
what you do and get more or know more about what
00:42:00.179 --> 00:42:01.960
you do? I think LinkedIn is probably the best
00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:04.840
place. I post quite a bit on LinkedIn. I don't
00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:09.820
post as much on my Instagram except for during
00:42:09.820 --> 00:42:16.900
Inktober. So my Instagram is Fable Us, but we'll
00:42:16.900 --> 00:42:18.900
include that in the show notes. We'll include
00:42:18.900 --> 00:42:20.500
that in the show notes. Obviously, the Shapeshifters
00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:23.380
website, but LinkedIn. LinkedIn is probably the
00:42:23.380 --> 00:42:27.539
best place. I regularly post thoughts, articles,
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:31.880
video links, drawings, that kind of thing. And
00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:33.340
if they want to meet you in person, they can
00:42:33.340 --> 00:42:35.139
come to the Think Visual. Come to Think Visual
00:42:35.139 --> 00:42:37.820
or Sydney Design Thinking. Sydney Design Thinking
00:42:37.820 --> 00:42:40.300
as well. Great. Well, thank you so much for your
00:42:40.300 --> 00:42:44.309
time today, Al. Of course. You're welcome. Thank
00:42:44.309 --> 00:42:44.489
you.